An apostolate run by Christian B. Wagner seeking to defend the glorious Catholic Faith using the Scholastic method.
To learn more about using the Scholastic method to defend the faith: www.christianbwagner.com/post/what-online-catholic-apologists-are-missing
Follow me on Twitter or instagram: @MilitantThomist
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Hmm, you remind me of Taylor Marshall. I must have stumbled across a Protestant channel. My bad.
The day I stop criticising Pope Francis and how the Bishops handled Vatican 2(as a council I have no problem with). Will. Be the day I stop caring for Holy Mother Church.
This is being back Internet Bloodsports memories. The true golden era was when men could debate each other, get heated, call each other names, but not get butt hurt and at the end of the days still be brothers to eachother. Love this Jay.
Why does bro even upload? No one cares nor does anybody believe Romanism is the true church. Come to orthodoxy and lose some weight
Sincerely asking, how can the statement about Leo the 9th’s magisterial teaching being more authoritative than Francis’ current one be reconciled with this statement from Leo 13: "It is to give proof of a submission which is far from sincere to set up some kind of opposition between one Pontiff and another. Those who, faced with two differing directives, reject the present one to hold to the past, are not giving proof of obedience to the authority which has the right and duty to guide them; and in some ways they resemble those who, on receiving a condemnation, would wish to appeal to a future council, or to a Pope who is better informed. On this point what must be remembered is that in the government of the Church, except for the essential duties imposed on all Pontiffs by their apostolic office, each of them can adopt the attitude which he judges best according to times and circumstances. Of this he alone is the judge." (Pope Leo XIII, Apostolic Letter Epistola Tua,
1:09:27 jay joins
Lofton covers all the nuances of “public dissent” nothing to be cleared up for a regular listener of R&T
I love these videos so much thank you for posting, God bless you! ❤
34:15 “Let’s not try to grab the microphone. Okay, you can eat the wires.” Most dad thing ever lol
@MilitantThomist, I have been blessed to be born and raised in the Diocese of Charlotte, NC, which is the diocese where St. John the Baptist in Tryon, NC is located. I have been also blessed to be an alumnus of Belmont Abbey College, an orthodox Catholic college in the diocese. The Diocese of Charlotte has become one of the most thriving areas when it comes to the Traditional Latin Mass and the Reform of the Reform. There is a good number of priests who offer both the Traditional Latin Mass and a reverent form of the Novus Ordo. We are also blessed to have a minor college seminary, by the name of St. Joseph's College Seminary, at Belmont Abbey College, which has fostered a love for orthodoxy and reverent liturgy according to both the usus antiquior and the Novus Ordo. Perhaps to show a taste of what you discovered, I have a link of the live streams of St. Thomas Aquinas in Charlotte, NC, where the Reform of the Reform is being done so beautifully. venue.streamspot.com/366c2a74
Why are OrthoBro converts 100x more annoying than cradle Orthos?
A wonderful defense of the most Holy Trinity! Gloria Patri, et Filio, et Spiritui Sancto; sicut erat in principio, et nunc, et semper, et in saecula saeculorum, amen.
Oh, so can I publicly denounce teaching documents like Fiduccia Supplicans or are you going to split more hairs? And somehow you think it depends on how many people you publicly proclaim your denouncement, telling your viewers that it's okay to tell five people on social media? However, you don't say how many people you must broadcast your denouncement toward in order for it to be considered wrong. So how many people do you have to air your denouncement before it is considered wrong?
You're a Loftonhatersplainer
Bro really thought he cooked with this one… Tell me the precise value of property in USD that constitutes grave matter in stealing, and then I will tell you in return the precise number of listeners to constitute public dissent
@@MilitantThomist you're the one that brought up the number five. So you obviously have some arbitrary numbers in mind.
the pope should convene another ecumenical council with all the eastern catholic churches to reaffirm and regularize the filioque in the creed, and also anathematize palamas
With this papacy, withholding assent kinda became the go-to for most of the stuff we see coming out of Rome these days.
Whristopher Wagner bro cooked with this one
The sedevacantist position has officially convinced me. No way to square the old and new magisteriums without having to completely undermine one or the other
I Think that your position on dissent is wrong there is nothing wrong in advancing the truth that you in your honest Conscience believes in. Take Authorative teaching for example. Most theologians agree that dissent from those teachings can be legit provided they are in good conscience, because they can contain error, you simply imply with your dissent that you cant follow error when you uncover one because it would be against virtue of truth. Also Public dissent what does it mean? making a youtube video and humbly critisizing a teaching is dissent? are theologians that are writing journal articels about specific matter in the church dissenters just for pointing out error in doctrine? Even Aquinas did believe in primacy of conscience. As Scholastic you should know that your tradition what born from critique and debate and not simple and mindless obedience. Source: By what Authority? Foundations for Understanding Authority in the Church by Richard R. Gaillardetz Source A History of Catholic Theological Ethics by James F Keenan S.J Source: NOTES ON MORAL THEOLOGY AUTHORITY IN THE CHURCH by BERNARD HOOSE Source: Ten Reasons why Thomas Aquinas is Important for Ethics Today by James F Keenan SJ Source: Obedience, Conscience, and Propria Voluntas in St. Thomas by Aaron Maddeford I also take issue with your use of Latin word, obsequium because it , is variously translated as “obedience,” “submission,” “docility,” “due respect,” or “assent.” and the topic is hotly debated among Theologians you simply picked one that suits your argument best. Reading into literature on primacy of conscience simply agrees with my statement you can't impose truth by degree. Sources: Gaudium et Spes and Dignitatis Humanae on Conscience: a Forgotten Concept of Vatican II? by Michael G. Lawler and Todd A. Salzman Human Experience and Catholic Moral Theology by Michael G. Lawler and Todd A. Salzman Conscience, Catholicism, and Politics by David E. DeCosse your method really takes away human free will and puts it under whims of Popes and Bishops, for example should i believe that thomas aquinas and most of the Catholic tradition is in error on death penalty? And you really want us to believe that other conservative theologians that have written on the subject and asserted infallability of the teaching on death penalty are in error too? John and benedict also were in error? really brother take a hike. Source: Evangelium Vitae, St. Thomas Aquinas, and the Death Penalty by Steven A. Long Capital Punishment and the Infallibility of the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium Christian D. Washburn you can't just take 1 book quote from it and declare that your position on dissent is right, when there exists many and i mean many theologians that simply don't agree.
If you’ve ever read any of the documents dealing with dissent, they all deal with the objection from conscience. It’s a modernist error to claim that conscience can justify a lack of the obligations of the virtue of faith.
@@MilitantThomistif you would have read anything from literature provided you would have known that there are 2 views on conscience you simply spout Ecclesiastical view on Conscience and I am taking approach of current approach meaning personalist conscience that has dominated Ecclesiastical view after 1968 Virtue of faith is guided by virtues of truth and prudence without those faith is blind and without reason and this is against scholastic tradition that you claim to be part of. Source Reflecting and Advancing the Transformation: Catholic Theological Ethics and the Journal of Religious Ethics, 1973-2023 by Linda Hogan
@@MilitantThomist faith without virtue of prudence is unintelligent and without virtue of truth is blind. It's really sad that you ignore hundreds of theologians for your backwardness. There exist two views on conscience you choice ecclesiastical views and I personalist one that's difference. But majority of catholic theologians came to conclusion that personalist view is correct one. Source Reflecting and Advancing the Transformation: Catholic Theological Ethics and the Journal of Religious Ethics, 1973-2023 by Linda hogan.
@@MilitantThomistfaith without truth is blind. Ecclesiastical view on Conscience is slave mentality in it's purest form that's why vatican 2 and most theologians rejected it with personalist conscience
People always use Jesus criticizing the pharasies in public as a reasom to criticize the Pope. what they domt think about is the Hiarchy and subordinate vs authority that Jesus has that we as layiety and evem the Bishops do not.. He didn't tell his followers to criticize the Pharasies he did it because they were his subordinates so it was criticism it was correction from a superior. Instead he told his follow because they sit on Moses seat to do what they tell you until he delegated his authority which is above the pharasies to the Apostles.
Public Dissent is a good metal band name
If your putting it on youtube or social media it's public dissent.
I would argue that what Pope Francis has said on the death penalty goes against prior papal, Biblical, and Traditional teaching and therefore ought to be resisted, putting it in the same category as what he said about “certain acts between men.”
My favorite liturgies in order: (1) Byzantine, (2) Novus Ordo properly celebrated, (3) TLM.
This is great, some of Jay’s material is decent but if you’ve seen one of his videos taking down a Baptist you’ve seen them all. He follows the same script and if the conversation starts to veer off that script he starts shouting the other person down. The worst part is how he just oozes condescension, there is a right way to be right. This guy seems to exhibit the right way to be right. He’s disagreeing with Jay but isn’t a prick about it. I am newer to these things coming out of Protestantism and becoming Catholic. Looking forward to watching more goos content like this. Subbed
From my understanding, there are definitive authoritative teachings, authoritative non-definitive teachings, and non authoritative teachings/opinions. Someone correct me if I’m wrong but it seems that authoritative non-def teachings you can disagree with but still must submit to it while non authoritative/ basically just opinions you can completely disagree with. Obviously this isn’t directly related to public dissent though.
they are all authoritative, but they may not be infallible and can be changed in the future, but you must still follow them.
@@krkenheimer I know I asked for people to correct me if I’m wrong but I believe that’s incorrect. A bishop just stating his personal opinion in something like an interview is not binding on the people’s conscience.
😂
Alright some of this is a bit advanced for me. I guess my question would be how can all have sufficient grace if only the elect are saved?
Incredible!
Can you spell and/or link to the document you mention by Pope Leo IX?
"now, let's say you're a little gay."
So much cope
Would it be more accurate for our purposes to call the sin "publicized dissent"?
I’m Orthodox but I have loved watching your channel for the last 2 years. Maybe just out of spite for Lofton but still..
Dude it's all so tiresome, ESPECIALLY when you can prove Christianity is irrelevant for any non-Hebrew
Sounds like you agreed with Lofton pretty much but for alternative motives want to distance yourself from him.
Bro!!! That's , literally, my point at another thread. Thanks for confirming what I've also seen. This dude is a contradiction. Claims we should all be faithful, surrounds himself with sedes, schismatics, and dissenters who, straight up, lie about what the Pope has and hasn't said or done, making false claims of the Pope creating confusion (when it's the diasenters creating the confusion), then goes to make the same points and observations that Lofton is making with almost null distinction... It's baffling.
@@EdwardBray-i1w I'm pretty sure we know what's going on... Lofton riles up a tonne of Orthodox and Catholic-schismatics. And some Orthobro's are adjacent to Wagner's young Catholics & vibe with them & their online style with memes/jokes & general suspicion of anything establishment. The orthobro's try to call Lofton cringe as a cope because his arguments make them seethe because they have no counters. Then Lofton hate gets in the air of these circles and even guys like this get an irrational anti-Lofton allergy JUST through proximity because from what I see - the dude pretty much agrees with Lofton across the board. He's almost TRYING to disagree XD
@@EdwardBray-i1w Because the Pope is creating confusion. His ambiguity causes that, he focuses more on being "merciful" and "charitable" then being clear
@@igorlopes7589 no ambiguity, the Pope is very clear. Dissenterd are the ones confusing you because you listen and trust them over the Magiaterium. Pretty straight forward.
@@EdwardBray-i1w what are you talking about? Wagner has always been consistent on this issue and has for as long as I have followed him been a popesplainer. Where does he surround himself with sedes and schismatics??
I have a genuine question. I’m not at all well read on how to tell the various weights of papal magisterial authority, especially not as it pertains to past papal magisterial statements, so how do we determine that Pope Leo’s magisterial teaching on the criminalization of homosexual acts is of higher authority than that of Pope Francis’?
Funny thing is, if you actually listened to Lofton fully and directly, instead of these strawmans, caricatures, and bad representations OF what he says, you'd see you and he, actually, agree. Anyway, I'm noones rep, so I leave these issies to you all.
It seems as though the Magisterium currently wants to say all forms of torture are intrinsically evil. But this is clearly not the historic teaching of the Magisterium. Similarly with the death penalty, the Magisterium places faithful Catholics in the unnecessary position of trying to explain teachings that contradict each other.
It's prudence - it's very easy to understand. God permits what would otherwise be an action far from the ideal or even a lesser evil (double effect, just war, ectopic pregnancy etc.) But the prudence of the situation is what makes that tragic ugly action 'permissable' - the Popes & Church just say today, the death pentalty's inadmissable - it's stupid due to the circumstances and probably evil because of the sitatuion. Thomists cannot ignore all this and use theory as a get out of jail card to ignore the virtue of prudence.
@@nuca5104 Are torture and the death penalty intrinsically evil?
I think Wagner errs here in saying that Pope Francis’s statements on the death penalty do not contradict prior and higher teaching, which he admits in the case of the Holy Father’s errors regarding punishments for acts between men.
I recently discovered your channel and was wondering what your educational background is
People really struggle to accept the duty of obbiedience, but it's central. Obbidience to Christ and to His Church is fundamental to the faith.
Obedience to your conscience is first and to supperior second, what will you tell god when you die? the pope has ordered me to sin so it makes it okay? what are you? a yes man? or a human being with free will given directly by god. Thomas aquinas stated clearly that virtue of obedience is excercised first to your conscience source: Obedience, Conscience, and Propria Voluntas in St. Thomas by Aaron Maddeford
@@SuperTommox Yes, and we live in a time when the earthly head of the pope creates barriers to following Christ.
I'm confused now why you are opposing Lofton in this case, as the ones he is accusing of public dissent (guys like Peter Kwasniewski, Archbishop Vigano, Taylor Marshall, etc.) all fit the definitions and examples of public dissent you have provided. Granted, I have not watched all of his videos, but I'm wondering where your opposition is coming from?
He'll call people like Steve Ray "dissents," "protestants," etc.. I am not opposing him calling those other guys dissenters...as I stated in this video.
@@MilitantThomist Ok, thanks. Not familiar with Steve Ray, so cannot rly comment on that. Cheers for clarifying
@@Shlomayo The big man with a small beard has also attacked Cardinal Zen, who for decades has suffered for his firm union with Peter.
If public dissent against bishops and cardinals counts, Lofton is guilty there, but I think the main critique of Lofton is his uncharitable and heavy handed treatment within his comments and towards lesser KZreadrs.
@@nicholasshaler7442 I'm aware of the issue with Cardinal Zen, and found his blog post untypically infantile.
Some of you have asked about whether a Pope can commit the sin of public dissent. I think the answer is that he clearly cannot when speaking magisterially (although, he could as a private theologian). I am willing to be corrected on this, but this is my reasoning: Public dissent is opposed to the obligation of obsequium religiosum, an obligation that binds the ecclesia discens, not the ecclesia docens. Thus, it would be something else, i.e., error, other moral/intellectual faults could also be attached depending on the case.
@@MilitantThomist If your argument is accurate, then it is also impossible for a bishop to commit the sin of public dissent.
@@nicholasshaler7442I don’t think that follows (although, again, willing to hear out other options since I haven’t seen this treated ex professo by any other author) since the Bishops stand to the Pope in the same relation as to his teaching in the same way that we stand to the Pope…although, I am not sure the same can be said for the Pope with himself or predecessors.
@@MilitantThomist I Think that your position on dissent is wrong, there is nothing wrong in advancing the truth that you in your honest Conscience believes in. Take Authorative teaching for example. Most theologians agree that dissent from those teachings can be legit provided they are in good conscience, because they can contain error, you simply imply with your dissent that you cant follow error when you uncover one because it would be against virtue of truth. Also Public dissent what does it mean? making a youtube video and humbly critisizing a teaching is dissent? are theologians that are writing journal articels about specific matter in the church dissenters just for pointing out error in doctrine? Even Aquinas did believe in primacy of conscience. As Scholastic you should know that your tradition was born from critique and debate and not simple and mindless obedience. Source: By what Authority? Foundations for Understanding Authority in the Church by Richard R. Gaillardetz Source A History of Catholic Theological Ethics by James F Keenan S.J Source: NOTES ON MORAL THEOLOGY AUTHORITY IN THE CHURCH by BERNARD HOOSE Source: Ten Reasons why Thomas Aquinas is Important for Ethics Today by James F Keenan SJ Source: Obedience, Conscience, and Propria Voluntas in St. Thomas by Aaron Maddeford I also take issue with your use of Latin word, obsequium because it , is variously translated as “obedience,” “submission,” “docility,” “due respect,” or “assent.” and the topic is hotly debated among Theologians you simply picked one that suits your argument best. Reading into literature on primacy of conscience simply agrees with my statement you can't impose truth by degree. Sources: Gaudium et Spes and Dignitatis Humanae on Conscience: a Forgotten Concept of Vatican II? by Michael G. Lawler and Todd A. Salzman Human Experience and Catholic Moral Theology by Michael G. Lawler and Todd A. Salzman Conscience and Experience: Choosing the True and the Good by Michael G. Lawler and Todd A. Salzman Conscience, Catholicism, and Politics by David E. DeCosse your method really takes away human free will and puts it under whims of Popes and Bishops, for example should i believe that thomas aquinas and most of the Catholic tradition is in error on death penalty? And you really want us to believe that other conservative theologians that have written on the subject and asserted infallability of the teaching on death penalty are in error too? John and benedict also were in error? really brother take a hike. Source: Evangelium Vitae, St. Thomas Aquinas, and the Death Penalty by Steven A. Long Capital Punishment and the Infallibility of the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium Christian D. Washburn You can't just take 1 book quote from it and declare that your position on dissent is right, when there exists many and i mean many theologians that simply don't agree. If you are not in university please use sci hub!
@@MilitantThomist Take for example case of religious freedom and if you object to word ( if not than forget the rest X) ) reversal in the article keep in mind that Scholars did conclude that yes it was a reversal of the ordinary teaching. That dissent did lead to progress in Catholic doctrine. Source: Catholic dissent: When wrong turns out to be right by ROBERT J. MCCLORY ( US Catholic ) The Disputed Teachings of Vatican II Continuity and Reversal in Catholic Doctrine by Thomas G. Guarino
If it is public dissent to appeal to a lower magisterial authority over and against a higher authority, doesn’t it follow that Pope Francis is publicly dissenting from the magisterium in appealing to his opinion over and against the magisterium of St. Leo IX (provided that Pope Francis is aware of this)? Or is there some reason that the sin of public dissent doesn’t apply to the Pope himself?
Public dissent is applied to those who are not members of the magisterium since it is opposed to the obligation of obsequium religiosum, an obligation that binds the ecclesia discens, not the ecclesia docens. Thus, it would be something else, i.e., error, other moral/intellectual faults could also be attached depending on the case.
The Categories is a work of speech not being as such.
I'm not sure that Michael Lofton's opinion is that the Pope can't be mistaken in an interview, or that the Pope can't be criticized in some cases. I watch him a lot, and he does criticizes Pope Francis on things, and also points out that at times he doesn't speak as clearly as he should. But he maintains that any time he exercises his authority to teach with his magisterium that it can't be heretical, but I am not certain that he considers interviews to be an exercise of his magisterium, but I could be mistaken.
You missed the point....I am talking about how he treats others
@@MilitantThomist Okay I gotcha, so how does he mistreat others? Cause I don't think he will call any criticism of Pope Francis's statements public dissent and gravely immoral, as far as I can tell, and I've followed him for quite some time. But if I am wrong, let me know.
That is never his point. Do you ever, actually, listen?
@@matthewoburke7202 He attacks good men for bad reasons. As Cardinal Zen, a hero who has suffered long for unity with the See of Peter, has said, Lofton ought to be ignored.
The genius of Pope Francis is that he seems to understand that words and traditions don't have stable fixed meanings. Folks criticize me as being a postmodernist off in la la land or somehow contrary to Aquinas, but this is a pretty brute Heisenberg-level scientific reality: If the finest possible human instruments can't simultaneously measure momentum and position of a particle, then why should we expect the interplay of human words and interpretations to pin down something as elusive as truth? Indeed, Negative and Analogical Theology pretty much necessitate that any time we affirm anything definite about God, we must simultaneously acknowledge we're wrong. So, as Pope Francis says, respect the traditions and learn as much from them as you can, but avoid clinginess, lest you end up in a man made dogmatic box
because Jesus came down said I am the truth and gave the Holy Spirit to the apostles. But people like you and the man you are praising think differently apparently. did Jesus come down to the earth and say we all worship the divine one God therefore go as you are and dont believe in me? did he say that?
@@user-mj4nc1lg4hif we cling too hard to the past, we make our faith a relic in and of itself. Evrry day we must sacrifice Christ with the sins of yesterday and resurrect him with the hope of tomorrow's progress, otherwise our religion dies
Excellent 🎉
Nuance!
I got shown a MUSLIM ad while watching this video!