Maritain was coalposting.

@hectarea1226

Ай бұрын

The second Maritain, yeah.

Give him a break. Being French, which is to say emotional and a little gay, and living through WW1 and WW2 in France could justifiably cause the mind to sway. The French at least since Pascal and especially after Rousseau consider contradiction and paradox a great badge of honor. He was Thomistish

@sw3aty_forte

4 күн бұрын

lol

The fact that someone would have been condemned by a prior generation of churchmen but is held up as a model theologian by the next isn't that shocking. They literally cut St. Maximus's tongue out of his mouth and mangled his hand, threw him in a dungeon and left him for dead for preaching what a few decades later was upheld as the orthodox position on the two wills of Christ.

@MilitantThomist

Ай бұрын

The question of the duration of the Poena Sensus had been explicitly discussed for almost millennium and a half at that point…this is a completely different situation.

@colbytheresa4504

Ай бұрын

And I'm sure some of the first millennium luminaries would have condemned the 18th and 19th century popes for saying slavery is a sin. Just because something is discussed for a long time doesn't mean theologians shouldn't have a license to explore novel theories, provided they are not in open and flagrant dissent from the ecclesiastical authorities.

@dvinb150

Ай бұрын

@@colbytheresa4504I don’t know the specific papal statements concerning slavery, but people could just „cope“ & say the people before the 19th century didn’t have 18th century American chattel slavery in mind when they said that there’s nothing morally wrong about slavery.

@colbytheresa4504

Ай бұрын

First off, the Church developed on the very question of the transatlantic slave trade. In the 15th century it was fine for the Portuguese to perpetually enslave the non-Christians in their African territories according to Nicholas V. Now all of a sudden that's a grave sin in Gregory XVI's In supremo apostolicus. Now there can be genuine development on this point, not the least of which because you do have early saints like Gregory of Nyssa who preached against slavery.

@HoradrimBR

6 күн бұрын

​@colbytheresa4504 maybe slavery can have a comeback under the pretense of "using the labour of those in jail". Of course, the "s word" is taboo, but the condition of these workers could fit the common definition of slavery. That's a kind of slavery that never was prohibited by the Church. Of course, to "born as slave" will not come back soon, and it's a good thing.

The more you know.

He probably had good intentions.

@IsaiahINRI

Ай бұрын

Sure, but that doesn't mean he's anywhere near correct

I’ve wondered about this view of his, would you consider it to be actually formally heretical in some way, or just dumb?

Interesting.

Do you have the link for the article?

Everyone gets on his case, for example Bp. Williamson talks about him a lot and his crazy later ideas.

@--Mar

Ай бұрын

+Williamson is based.

I think Maritains view seems reasonable.

@MilitantThomist

Ай бұрын

Why would the poena damni be eternal, but not the poena sensus?

@dvinb150

Ай бұрын

@@bman5257Well, Aquinas says: „Even in the damnation of the reprobate mercy is seen, which, though it does not totally remit, yet somewhat alleviates, in punishing short of what is deserved.“ But I‘m not sure, if here he‘s only talking about the poena damni or also about poena sensus as well. I‘d personally tend to the latter interpretation, but one who‘d have to look up Thomistic commentaries to know the correct interpretation of this passage in Thomas.

Hell is eternal only in speech as in a long time like Satan let loose for a thousand years not literal years . Not a place but a state . No literal torment of burning in flames

@MilitantThomist

Ай бұрын

Nah

What "developed" in those 20 years, Christian?

Maritain was a modernist. The doctrine that the Devil will be restored to good (i.e. redeemed) was condemned in 553 by the Council of Constantinople. The doctrine that the torments in Hell are ETERNAL was divinely revealed and believed by the Holy Church throughout the ages. The only theologians that taught the idea expressed here by Maritain were Órigenés and (St.) Clement of Alexandria (both lived before Constantinople).