Exciting topic

Another certified kino from Mr. Wagner!

Hey, I love your videos Christian! I may not be a catholic, but I really appreciate your prospective on things. (If you're curious, I'm Anglican). I especially love your polemics defending the filioque 😅

I'm a little confused. If the bishops can depose the Pope for heresy after convicting him in an imperfect council, wouldn't that still be conciliarism? Though I understand that he says that it isn't because he is no longer Pope, since Christ has judged him and takes his office away after he is convicted. I'm still having trouble seeing how this isn't conciliar though, since the Church is still acting on behalf of Christ and with the authority of the keys here to convict the Pope. If I'm wrong though let me know!

@feliksdombrosky3942

Ай бұрын

Rewatch the video and pay attention when he's talking about the two sets of keys and the two types of judgements.

@bookpaper105

Ай бұрын

what they are trying to say i think is that you cant be a manifest heretic and be in the church. after being warned the ball is in your court if you decide to be a manifest heretic as pope you are no longer christian which means you cant be pope. so the idea would be the council is just opening their eyes to the fact that the pope doesnt care even after warnings about his heresy. and you cant listen to someone who is a heretic. and a manifest heretic loses authority since he is no longer in the church. at least that is an opinion.

@sleepystar1638

Ай бұрын

@@feliksdombrosky3942 it goes against Florence. Regardless of Keys.

@Onlyafool172

Ай бұрын

​​@@sleepystar1638a council cannot be taken our of the context it was made in, Keys can turn thing on and off, if a council says you gotta kill heretics, because it was made in a time heretics when spotted would Immediately commit terrorism, do you think it will mean in a another time you should shot buddist monks if they meditate? Do you think a Pope turns invalid when he makes a mistake? Or when the Church decides? If so than i ask you can a Pope be valid after he denied jesus 3 times?the Pope can enforce heresy but when the Church notices it it denies his enforcing and invalidates his rule, the Devil can disguise even as a Angel, why not a Pope? Remeber 95% of the early church in a period was guilty of arianism

@stevenlong7576

Ай бұрын

The question of heresy is a factual question. The Camerlengo who declares that the Pope is dead and a conclave needs to be called, is not asserting unilateral authority over the papal office. There are conditions for being a pope: being alive, being male, being baptized, being consecrated a bishop even if only after election but before assuming the office. But one other condition for being pope is communion with the Catholic Church, which is lost by public, persistent, and pertinacious heresy. If this is providentially permitted, then a necessary condition for being pope is not present, and the indiividual in question can no more be a reigning Pope than a dead man can be a reigning Pope. The power of the keys goes to the nature of the Petrine office; the question of heresy goes to a condition of being Pope. Most of the Fathers, and many great theologians, have considered that papal heresy is possible. Whether God permits so grave an evil is a question of divine providence and the divine mercy, on which we repose all our prayers in any case.. But the definition of Vatican I , which pertains to the nature of the office, does not obviate the question of the conditions for holding the office. It must be realized that antipapacy by reason of false election is even more difficult in some ways for the Church, because conclaves are not public, and even those attending might not be aware of corruption affecting the conclave itself (those who act corruptly do not carry signs saying: "I am violating canon law in offering quid pro quos for votes"). Whereas the doctrine of the Church is public and defined, and every Roman Catholic is charged to hold it. Public heresy is a worse affliction, but also a more manifest one.

Christian, please put the link to the full show in the description.

gem

Can you refute onorato diamanté

Got the clown John salza on here 😂😂😂😂

The Jesuit position doesn’t make sense to me. If it’s an imperfect council how can it act on behalf of Christ?

@carsonianthegreat4672

27 күн бұрын

How do imperfect men act in persona Christi?

"Simon, Simon, I have prayed for you so that your faith might not fail." The pope simply cannot be formal, manifest heretic (he can be material heretic, since every one can be out of ignorance). So these all scenarios are exercise in hypotheticals.

@aguspare1992

Ай бұрын

@@SuperOverlord999 The 2nd person pronouns used are all singular. And later He said, "when you converted, strengthen your brethren." Thus, it is the whole of the Church that is strengthened by Peter.

@CenterPorchNP

Ай бұрын

Francis isn't doing anything out of ignorance. He has gone against decisions of other popes, against definitive rules set in councils through the ages, desecrated the altar, and brings a hard division. It's time he gets called to account.

@aguspare1992

Ай бұрын

@@SuperOverlord999 The "I have prayed" is in perfect tense. It's a done deal. The prayer of Our Lord is most efficacious. Peter was lying when he said he didn't know Christ. That's not apostasy.

@aguspare1992

Ай бұрын

@@SuperOverlord999 Apostasy is when you actually stop believing your faith. Did Peter do that? Did he cease to believe what Jesus is? No and no. He lied. That's it. Or maybe you want to suggest that Christ's prayer failed? Be my guess. That would be a damnable sin.

@aguspare1992

Ай бұрын

@@SuperOverlord999 He denied knowing Christ. You think Jesus' prayer failed?

“Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren.” Luke 22:31-34

I see a big mistake. To wave in general public the faults of the Church. This should be done among the top clergy to rebuke strengthen ,pray and communicate about the problem privately. The devil love to pick up on it to destroy the Church.

It seems that a simple Moorean shift undoes this line of reasoning, for the reasoning seems to go something like this: Argument 1: Premise 1) If we are both permitted discretionary judgement of the Pope and permissible discretionary judgement of the Pope permits coercive judgement of the Pope, then we may coercively judge the Pope. (namely, after a discretionary judgement.) Premise 2a) we are both permitted discretionary judgement of the Pope and permissible discretionary judgement permits coercive judgement of the Pope. Conclusion (a): we may coercively judge the Pope. (namely, after a discretionary judgement.) The issue is that one may argue that we already know independently that the conclusion is false, and so we may shift the argument in this way: Argument 2: Premise 1) If we are both permitted discretionary judgement of the Pope and permissible discretionary judgement of the Pope permits coercive judgement of the Pope, then we may coercively judge the Pope. (namely, after a discretionary judgement.) premise 2b) we may not coercively judge the Pope Conclusion (b): It is not the case we are both permitted discretionary judgement of the Pope and permissible discretionary judgement of the Pope permits coercive judgement of the Pope. i.e. either we are not in fact permitted discretionary judgement, or if we are, it is not permitted in such a way that it could ever eventually permit coercive judgement. Since premise 2b seems to be the teaching of the Church, and premise 1 is agreed upon by both arguments, then I can't see how one can rationally justify holding argument 1 sound in light of argument 2. i.e. it seems to me that, barring the infallible declarations of either of a Pope or a perfect council, premise 2b shall always have less weight than premise 2a, and so the conclusion b of argument 2 shall always have more force than the conclusion a of argument 1.

Salza is wrong about Councils Vs Popes, Popes have full Authority

@sleepystar1638

Ай бұрын

@@olofberkeskold9554 he said they can call a council in to recognize the Pope as a Heretic, which is against Florence. Pope has all the Authority when it comes to Councils. Council of Florence "Then, when they realized that the aforesaid emperor and patriarch and others were already on their way to us for this work of holy union, they tried to lay another wicked snare to catch this divine project. That is, they produced against us a sacrilegious sentence of suspension from the administration of the papacy. Finally, those leaders of scandal, very few in number, most of them of the lowest rank and reputation, in their intense hatred of true peace, piling iniquity on top of iniquity lest they should enter into the justice of the Lord, when they saw that the grace of the holy Spirit was working in us towards union with the Greeks, swerving away from the straight line into paths of error, held a so-called session on 16 May last asserting that they were obeying certain decrees, although these were passed at Constance by only one of the three obediences after the flight of John XXIII, as he was called in that one obedience, at a time of schism. Alleging obedience to those decrees, they proclaimed three propositions which they term truths of the faith, seemingly to make heretics of us and all princes and prelates and other faithful and devout adherents of the apostolic see. The propositions are the following. “The truth about the authority of a general council, representing the universal church, over a pope and anyone else whatsoever, declared by the general councils of Constance and this one of Basel, is a truth of the catholic faith. The truth that a pope cannot by any authority, without its consent, dissolve a general council representing the universal church, legitimately assembled for the reasons given in the above-mentioned truth or for any of them, or prorogue it to another time or transfer it from place to place, is a truth of the catholic faith. Anyone who persists in opposing the aforesaid truths is to be considered a heretic.” In this, those utterly pernicious men, masking their malice with the rosy colour of a truth of the faith, gave to the council of Constance an evil and mischievous meaning completely opposed to its true teaching, imitating in this the teaching of other schismatics and heretics who always amass for their support fabricated errors and impious dogmas drawn from their perverse interpretation of the divine scriptures and the holy fathers. Finally, completely perverting their mind and turning away their eyes from looking to heaven or remembering righteous judgments, after the manner of Dioscorus and the infamous synod of Ephesus, they proceeded to a declaratory sentence of deprivation, as they claimed, from the dignity and office of the supreme apostolate, a poisonous and execrable pronouncement involving an unforgivable crime. Here we will take the tenor of that sentence, abhorrent to every pious mind, as sufficiently expressed. They omitted nothing, as far as was in their power, that might overthrow this incomparable good of union. O miserable and degenerate sons! O wicked and adulterous generation! What could be more cruel than this impiety and iniquity? Can anything more detestable, more dreadful and more mad be imagined? Earlier on they were the ones who said that nothing better, nothing more glorious and fruitful had ever been seen or heard of in the Christian people, from the very birth of the church, than this most holy union, and that to further it there should be no contention about the place, but rather to achieve it the wealth of this world as well as body and soul should be hazarded, proclaiming this aloud to the whole world and urging the Christian people to it, as their decrees and letters fully state. But now they persecute exactly this as furiously and as impiously as they can, so that the devils of the entire world seem to have flocked together to that conventicle of brigands at Basel. So far almighty God has not allowed their iniquity and its lying inconsistencies to prevail. But seeing that they are striving with all their strength to bring it to success, even to the point of setting up the abomination of desolation in God’s church, we can in no way pretend to ignore these things without most serious offence to God and imminent danger of confusion and abomination in God’s church. In keeping with our pastoral office, at the urging of many who are fired with zeal for God, we wish to put a stop to such evils and, as far as we can, to take appropriate and salutary measures to eliminate from God’s church this execrable impiety and most destructive pestilence. Following in the steps of our predecessors who, as Pope Nicholas of holy memory writes, were accustomed to annul councils which had been conducted improperly, even those of universal pontiffs, as occurred at the second universal synod at Ephesus, inasmuch as the blessed pope Leo summoned it but later established the council of Chalcedon. We renew by our apostolic authority, with the approval of this holy council of Florence, the solemn and salutary decree against those sacrilegious men, which was issued by us in the sacred general council of Ferrara on 15 February. By that decree we declared among other things, with the approval of the said sacred council of Ferrara, that each and every person at Basel who, in the name of a pretended council which we called more accurately a conventicle, dared to perpetrate those scandalous and wicked deeds in contravention of our translation and declaration, whether they are cardinals, patriarchs, archbishops, bishops, abbots or of some other ecclesiastical or secular dignity, has incurred the penalties of excommunication, privation of dignities, benefices and offices and disqualification for the future, which are instanced in our letter of translation. Now we decree and declare again that all the things done or attempted by those impious men presently in Basel, which were mentioned in our said decree of Ferrara, and each and all of the things done, performed or attempted by the same men since then, especially in the two so-called sessions or rather conspiracies which have just been mentioned, and whatever may have followed from these things or from any of them, or may follow in the future, as coming from impious men who have no authority and have been rejected and reprobated by God, were and are null, quashed, invalid, presumptuous and of no effect, force or moment. With the approval of the sacred council we condemn and reject, and we proclaim as condemned and rejected, those propositions quoted above as understood in the perverse sense of the men at Basel, which they demonstrate by their deeds, as contrary to the sound sense of sacred scripture, the holy fathers and the council of Constance itself; and likewise the aforesaid so-called sentence of declaration or deprivation, with all its present and future consequences, as impious and scandalous and tending to open schism in God’s church and to the confusion of all ecclesiastical order and Christian government. Also, we decree and declare that all of the aforesaid persons have been and are schismatics and heretics, And that as such they are assuredly to be punished with suitable penalties over and above the penalties imposed at the aforesaid council of Ferrara, together with all their supporters and abettors, of whatever ecclesiastical or secular status, condition or rank they may be, even cardinals, patriarchs, archbishops, bishops or abbots or those of any other dignity, so that they may receive their deserts with the aforesaid Korah, Dathan and Abiram Let nobody therefore … If anyone however …"

@sleepystar1638

Ай бұрын

@@olofberkeskold9554 he said they can call a council in to recognize the Pope as a Heretic, which is against Florence. Pope has all the Authority when it comes to Councils. Council of Florence "Then, when they realized that the aforesaid emperor and patriarch and others were already on their way to us for this work of holy union, they tried to lay another wicked snare to catch this divine project. That is, they produced against us a sacrilegious sentence of suspension from the administration of the papacy. Finally, those leaders of scandal, very few in number, most of them of the lowest rank and reputation, in their intense hatred of true peace, piling iniquity on top of iniquity lest they should enter into the justice of the Lord, when they saw that the grace of the holy Spirit was working in us towards union with the Greeks, swerving away from the straight line into paths of error, held a so-called session on 16 May last asserting that they were obeying certain decrees, although these were passed at Constance by only one of the three obediences after the flight of John XXIII, as he was called in that one obedience, at a time of schism. Alleging obedience to those decrees, they proclaimed three propositions which they term truths of the faith, seemingly to make heretics of us and all princes and prelates and other faithful and devout adherents of the apostolic see. The propositions are the following. “The truth about the authority of a general council, representing the universal church, over a pope and anyone else whatsoever, declared by the general councils of Constance and this one of Basel, is a truth of the catholic faith. The truth that a pope cannot by any authority, without its consent, dissolve a general council representing the universal church, legitimately assembled for the reasons given in the above-mentioned truth or for any of them, or prorogue it to another time or transfer it from place to place, is a truth of the catholic faith. Anyone who persists in opposing the aforesaid truths is to be considered a heretic.” In this, those utterly pernicious men, masking their malice with the rosy colour of a truth of the faith, gave to the council of Constance an evil and mischievous meaning completely opposed to its true teaching, imitating in this the teaching of other schismatics and heretics who always amass for their support fabricated errors and impious dogmas drawn from their perverse interpretation of the divine scriptures and the holy fathers. Finally, completely perverting their mind and turning away their eyes from looking to heaven or remembering righteous judgments, after the manner of Dioscorus and the infamous synod of Ephesus, they proceeded to a declaratory sentence of deprivation, as they claimed, from the dignity and office of the supreme apostolate, a poisonous and execrable pronouncement involving an unforgivable crime. Here we will take the tenor of that sentence, abhorrent to every pious mind, as sufficiently expressed. They omitted nothing, as far as was in their power, that might overthrow this incomparable good of union. O miserable and degenerate sons! O wicked and adulterous generation! What could be more cruel than this impiety and iniquity? Can anything more detestable, more dreadful and more mad be imagined? Earlier on they were the ones who said that nothing better, nothing more glorious and fruitful had ever been seen or heard of in the Christian people, from the very birth of the church, than this most holy union, and that to further it there should be no contention about the place, but rather to achieve it the wealth of this world as well as body and soul should be hazarded, proclaiming this aloud to the whole world and urging the Christian people to it, as their decrees and letters fully state. But now they persecute exactly this as furiously and as impiously as they can, so that the devils of the entire world seem to have flocked together to that conventicle of brigands at Basel. So far almighty God has not allowed their iniquity and its lying inconsistencies to prevail. But seeing that they are striving with all their strength to bring it to success, even to the point of setting up the abomination of desolation in God’s church, we can in no way pretend to ignore these things without most serious offence to God and imminent danger of confusion and abomination in God’s church. In keeping with our pastoral office, at the urging of many who are fired with zeal for God, we wish to put a stop to such evils and, as far as we can, to take appropriate and salutary measures to eliminate from God’s church this execrable impiety and most destructive pestilence. Following in the steps of our predecessors who, as Pope Nicholas of holy memory writes, were accustomed to annul councils which had been conducted improperly, even those of universal pontiffs, as occurred at the second universal synod at Ephesus, inasmuch as the blessed pope Leo summoned it but later established the council of Chalcedon. We renew by our apostolic authority, with the approval of this holy council of Florence, the solemn and salutary decree against those sacrilegious men, which was issued by us in the sacred general council of Ferrara on 15 February. By that decree we declared among other things, with the approval of the said sacred council of Ferrara, that each and every person at Basel who, in the name of a pretended council which we called more accurately a conventicle, dared to perpetrate those scandalous and wicked deeds in contravention of our translation and declaration, whether they are cardinals, patriarchs, archbishops, bishops, abbots or of some other ecclesiastical or secular dignity, has incurred the penalties of excommunication, privation of dignities, benefices and offices and disqualification for the future, which are instanced in our letter of translation. Now we decree and declare again that all the things done or attempted by those impious men presently in Basel, which were mentioned in our said decree of Ferrara, and each and all of the things done, performed or attempted by the same men since then, especially in the two so-called sessions or rather conspiracies which have just been mentioned, and whatever may have followed from these things or from any of them, or may follow in the future, as coming from impious men who have no authority and have been rejected and reprobated by God, were and are null, quashed, invalid, presumptuous and of no effect, force or moment. With the approval of the sacred council we condemn and reject, and we proclaim as condemned and rejected, those propositions quoted above as understood in the perverse sense of the men at Basel, which they demonstrate by their deeds, as contrary to the sound sense of sacred scripture, the holy fathers and the council of Constance itself; and likewise the aforesaid so-called sentence of declaration or deprivation, with all its present and future consequences, as impious and scandalous and tending to open schism in God’s church and to the confusion of all ecclesiastical order and Christian government. Also, we decree and declare that all of the aforesaid persons have been and are schismatics and heretics, And that as such they are assuredly to be punished with suitable penalties over and above the penalties imposed at the aforesaid council of Ferrara, together with all their supporters and abettors, of whatever ecclesiastical or secular status, condition or rank they may be, even cardinals, patriarchs, archbishops, bishops or abbots or those of any other dignity, so that they may receive their deserts with the aforesaid Korah, Dathan and Abiram Let nobody therefore … If anyone however …"

@carsonianthegreat4672

27 күн бұрын

You seem to misunderstand his argument

@sleepystar1638

27 күн бұрын

@@carsonianthegreat4672 lol he said they could have a council to recognize him as a heretic, thats impossible

@carsonianthegreat4672

26 күн бұрын

@@sleepystar1638 rewatch the video lol. That is not what he said. You clearly didn’t follow the argument very closely.

He's not the pope, so there's no reason to depose him. He never was the successor to St. Peter, nor were any post Vatican II antipopes.

@anthonymckinney9904

Ай бұрын

So who's authority do you submit to?

@KateHikes88

Ай бұрын

@@anthonymckinney9904 The Pope. We're in an interregnum, though; so currently there isn't a valid pope on the Chair of St. Peter.

@anthonymckinney9904

Ай бұрын

@@KateHikes88 The Pope is Pope Francis, you just refuse to see it. I really don't like seeing Catholics act this way. Unfortunately I think we are going to have a great schism and people are going the way of Martin Luther.

@bookishbrendan8875

Ай бұрын

Oh no…

@pedromoreira3552

Ай бұрын

The whole Church cannot adhere to a false pope. This the doctrine of universal and peaceful acceptance

Salsa is a disappointment to the Catholic Church. Cafeteria catholic.

@SevereFamine

Ай бұрын

What does he reject?

@delvingeorge2807

Ай бұрын

Ad hominem attacks without proper argument is what you make.