say anything positive about the ordinary form and the crazies come out of the woodwork!

@drjanitor3747

25 күн бұрын

The Latin Mass is the ordinary form

@alyosha119

24 күн бұрын

@@drjanitor3747 If you mean the 1962 Missal, it is not the ordinary form.

@user-zi7gd9pn3l

23 күн бұрын

​@@drjanitor3747No its the extraordinary form.

I go to a fantastic Novus Ordo that had a low Latin Mass option prior to Traditiones Custodes. It's also less than 5 minutes from me and I routinely hear their bells throughout the week and weekend. Oldest church in the area as well. Unfortunately I'm moving soon and nowhere near my new location compares unless I'm willing to drive a bit.

I hear and see Novus Ordos like this all the time online but sadly they’re so rare. To my knowledge there’s maybe 5 at most in my diocese like this but none close to me at all.

If you're ever in Charleston you have to check out the Solemn Mass at the Cathedral of St. John the Baptist on Sundays. I never knew what it meant when people say that the novos ordo hasn't been fully realized until I attended that Mass.

well... exactly, it was in the middle of nowhere... Same thing happens here in Chile, you have Latin masses in some churches deep within the country in the middle of the mountains because the bishops send the traditionally minded priest out of the city into the most marginal places. American Catholics tend to forget that it's only in their country that you have such a mix of different people and cultures, such a variety that you can get cotpic, ethiopian, and bizantine liturgies, Latin Novus Ordo, TLM, 60s vibe liturgies, charismatic pentecostal catholic mass, irreverent mass and clown mass in the same places. Here in Latin America, we just have irreverent, charismatic, and clown masses. So... yeah if you see people going into the SSPX here it's because it's too much of the insanity, and not much option and zero of these rare reverent NO, plus is not just the mass, it's the sermons, the pastoral guidance, it's many things. People think that the crisis in the Church is just about a liturgical war, they are just flat out wrong in their diagnosis.

@K37GK3

25 күн бұрын

Same in Mexico, unfortunately.

@XiHamORTHOCN

24 күн бұрын

Please visit an Orthodox church! Romanism is not the way. This is the fruit, but there are many more reason than this

@antoniopera6909

23 күн бұрын

In Brasil is exactly the same situation. I'd say that it is even worse kkkkkk

@pablovelasquez6917

21 күн бұрын

Where do you come from? I am from Guatemala but it there is no schisma, only perhaps lack of passion.

@AprendeMovimiento

21 күн бұрын

@@pablovelasquez6917 El problema no es "falta de pasión", el problema es un desconocimiento de como se debiese celebrar misa, los ritos y cómo se debiese predicar, es una falta de ortodoxia en la doctrina de los sacerdotes que se ve reflejada en liturgias con mala música, y malas prácticas en general.

Priest was probably sent out there to nowhere for being too trad.

@bookpaper105

2 күн бұрын

Shhhhhhh 🤫

I’ve been there for a TLM. Father is great. It’s a wonderful parish.

OK, but that doesn't tell us anything about how the NOM compares to the TLM objectively speaking. What matters is not how we would like Mass to be, but how it ought to be, in itself. And the common position of those attending the TLM is that it is objectively superior to the NOM qua ritual. I would like your thoughts on this question, if you haven't shared them before

I'd recommend the Cathedral of St Paul's 11am mass in Birmingham Alabama, It is also a very austere and reverent Novus Ordo. Also the Shrine of the Most Blessed Sacrament monastery (Mother Angelica's monastery) has ad orientam mass.

I made a video comparing the Latin N.O. and TLM at St John Cantius to emphasize how well N.O. can be done. Video blew up but now I'm swarmed with RadTrads coping about how N.O. is still irreverent even when it's reverent bc muh Bugnini. Had one guy even call it "Cain's sacrifice". For real?

@Leocomander

25 күн бұрын

The problem is not that the New Mass is irreverent. It’s that a lot of the Reform of the Reform bro’s fundamentally misunderstand the Traditionalist argument in favor of the TLM and think that *hey if the Novus Ordo can match the aesthetics of the TLM then it is just as good herp derp* ultimately the traditionalist concern with the New Mass has to do with the content in the mass and all that was stripped out of the prayers and ceremonies as well as reverence in the New Mass being optional. The Traditionalist argument for the New Mass is not mere aesthetics as some Reform of the Reform bros seem to want to make it out to be.

@rx0102

24 күн бұрын

@@LeocomanderI can't fathom how conservatives/post-trads don't understand this when for 50 years this has been the discussion. It's never been about incense or Latin, it's about a literally ταlmυdic Offertory, commυnion in hand pαrticle sαcrilege, & the Cαnon being swapped for a last-minute nαpkin prαyer in 90% of NOs.

@zenuno6936

11 күн бұрын

@@rx0102 As if they could swindle the Holy Spirit. The magisterium has taught. Napkin or golden papyrus, who cares. Its not our place to be second guessing the Church.

@teddyspaghetti9566

10 күн бұрын

@@zenuno6936You’d have accepted the Arian heresy too

Had a similar experience, twice! In the see of Charlolte as well. St Bernadette & St Margaret. God willing, Charlolte will see a bright future.

My home parish has the best Latin Novus Ordo. Ad-orientam as well.

@fotisvon9943

25 күн бұрын

drop the yt livestream link

@dwong9289

25 күн бұрын

@@fotisvon9943 no mass livestreams, but I can send you a Church tour video kzread.info/dash/bejne/m32LrtuvZ8enZqQ.htmlsi=jEh5CnvmDSfhiWj_

@jackneals5585

25 күн бұрын

Which Parish?

@jacobwoods6153

25 күн бұрын

Same. Gregorian chant, ad orientum, smells/bells, Latin woven in, communion on the tongue, communion rails, all of it. It's great.

I am very familiar with the church that you are referring to. That is Father Christian's Parish and I have a buddy who lives in South Carolina who goes there every Sunday. It's a VERY VERY solid parish.

Bishop Peter Jugis was the best. Pray for his health. 🙏

St. Bernadette’s in Scotsdale and St. Vincent Ferrer in NYC are among the best NOs I’ve seen. St. Vincent’s is operated by Dominicans. Love those guys.

I wanna watch it

If only reverent novus ordos werent so rare to find, i dont care if its TLM or NO or byzantine, we NEED reverence. And unfortunately 90% of the NO there are, aint it. And no, im not a Le TLM ONLY!! kinda guy.

St. Michael’s Abbey is almost like the 62 missal but it’s Ad Populum. You got the Mass Propers, Introit, Gradual, Alleluia, chanted. I just wished they added the Asperges Me and the Ad Orientem then you have almost like the 62 missal. I think Bridgeport Connecticut still does that with St. John the Evangelist. Although it is not on YT anymore but more on their website. However, St. John Cantius does the Novus Ordo almost like the 62 missal. I think one of the faithful did a side by side comparison of their mass, one being Latin and the other Novus Ordo. There is alot of hidden gem Novus Ordo if one were to go on the Reverent Mass website that has a map of churches that check the list. I hope this helps. God Bless!

@raptus.

24 күн бұрын

They can make the NO reverent, but they can't restore the traditional calendar and discipline; it's NOT about the smells and bells, it's also about the drastic reduction of the ceremonies, like doing away with the Psalm 42, holding the canonical digits post-consecrstion, the old Offertory, exclusivity of the Roman Canon, the Last Gospel etc.

@raptus.

24 күн бұрын

@Christ_is_King- Yes, absolutely agreed.

Hello

My favorite liturgies in order: (1) Byzantine, (2) Novus Ordo properly celebrated, (3) TLM.

Oh I know that church.

A pilgrimage to hear an ideal NO Mass.... 💔

I miss the old Wagner 😢

@dwightschrute900

25 күн бұрын

Same

@unit2394

25 күн бұрын

When he was Anglican.

@jackneals5585

25 күн бұрын

Explain

the pope is the supreme legislator of the church and can change the rites or suppress them as they have in centuries past. the problem is that the mass of paul vi is not being celebrated with the reverence and supplication to God that the worship of God deserves, or not consistently. rome is correct in suppressing the tlm if a rite is being misused to project an agenda of disobedience against the magisterium.

That's quite a claim... Curious to see what you have to say about it!

hey wagner

@setos8

25 күн бұрын

charollte is not based

What ad-orientam means?

@VincentVu846

25 күн бұрын

The priest faces toward the altar (looking east) while offering mass. This is opposite to "versus populum" where the priest offers mass facing the people, which is common in today's mass.

@Gab3784

25 күн бұрын

@@VincentVu846 Hmm makes sense. Thanks

Your preference doesn’t matter. We do what God wants. God wants the TLM. By your fruits you shall know them.

@realcoastalzoomer592

25 күн бұрын

Divine Liturgy?

@K37GK3

25 күн бұрын

God clearly wants the Ge'ez Rite.

@realcoastalzoomer592

25 күн бұрын

@@K37GK3 are you implying that Eastern rites are lesser? Obviously when I asked I was asking about the rite of St John Chrysostom or Basil or James, but be an arrogant asshole I guess…

@manueljardimfernandes9456

19 күн бұрын

Ladies and gentlemen, here is the one and only, the man who knows what God wants, now Christendom will unite because this great prophet has clearly spoken directly to God and knows perfectly what He wants!

Just go to a tlm.

@SevereFamine

25 күн бұрын

Latin does not equal reverent.

@IlliterateBook

25 күн бұрын

“Just go to a TLM” Goes to Anglican Sarum TLM* 😬

@igorlopes7589

25 күн бұрын

​@@SevereFamine TLM isn't just about latin, but even if it was the case the use of latin highlights the solemnity of the Mass and therefore better incentivizes reverence

@marvinaloysuis5827

25 күн бұрын

@@igorlopes7589😂 I think everyone forgets how diverse are the Rites. Am I right. We have, Lyon Rite (Rit Lyonnais), Sarum Rite, Anglican Rite, Dominican Rite, Carmelite Rite, Franciscan Rite, Gothic Rite and plenty more. Eastern Rite: Byzantine, Assyrian, Melkite, Coptic, Russian, Ukrainian, Greek, and many more. Every rites have the right to reverence besides the language it is spoken. Everyone has the right of their rite to attend as long as they do it with utmost reverence before Almighty God just like Abel. As well as the Lex Orandi of the clergy’s formation of the mass and his sermons that will help bring souls to heaven. I hope this helps. God Bless!

@PopeUrbanII-ws7rm

25 күн бұрын

I completely agree. However, the Tom has more silence, more genuflections, more Signs of the Cross, and also has the Last Gospel. Additionally, the Gospel is said facing the North. Latin itself in the Ecclesiastical way is reverent, and this is all in conjunction with what was just mentioned above. The TLM is more reverent.

🙏

Unicorn of the Unicorn. "Moreover, enshrining personal preference as the underlying norm coopted traditionalist opposition by bringing it under the big tent of post-Vatican II diversity, with its guitars and piano Masses, recycled Lutheran chorales, communion in the hand, occasional Gregorian chants, altar girls, lay Eucharistic Ministers, Hindu, African "inculturated" Liturgies and Mariachi Music."

If it was novus ordo, then it wasn't a "mass" but a protestantized service.

@mousakandah5188

25 күн бұрын

Riddle me this Lefebvrist How is it possible for an indefectible Church to universally promulgate false worship?

@catholiccrusader123

25 күн бұрын

The Church can't promulgate a harmful discipline. If you deny this, you're a heretic.

@rx0102

24 күн бұрын

@@mousakandah5188the SSPχ Crisis in the Church youtube series literally has a video with that exact name. There is only a riddle if you have no awareness of the answer.

@alyosha119

24 күн бұрын

Why?

The last supper technically?

@igorlopes7589

28 күн бұрын

The last supper is not the Novus Ordo lol

@whoknows3PX

28 күн бұрын

@@igorlopes7589 don’t see the difference tbh. Mass is just a reenactment of the last supper with Christ truly present in both

@MichaelHellmann-jy9ob

27 күн бұрын

​@@whoknows3PX Not at all. That's modernist nonsense. The Holy Mass is the Sacrifice of the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ offered on our altars under the appearances of bread and wine, in commemoration of the Sacrifice of the Cross. It's not a supper.

@mousakandah5188

25 күн бұрын

@@MichaelHellmann-jy9ob it's both

@john-paulgies4313

25 күн бұрын

Every Liturgy is that same Last Supper, that same Sacrifice.

Modernist liturgy dressed up as an ancient one

@mousakandah5188

25 күн бұрын

What's Modernist about it Please be specific and quote the prayers. I don't want any of your vague Lefebvrist nonsense

@zenuno6936

11 күн бұрын

Its quite ancient, given that it more resembles St.Justin Martyr mass than the tlm.

*Dear Novus Ordo Copers, enjoy- Hoppe can turn the nuke on you anytime* TAG utterly refuted: Hoppe here, us Western peak intellectuals have gathered to have a word with this new Eastern, so called, intellectualism. So, here’s a flavour of REAL presuppositonalism, consider this a nuke (it’s all love). Hello chaps. Our (Hume & Kant) understanding is that you fine sirs ground your epistemology within the orthodox church and their bible, thus think their teachings ultimately ground the claims within your worldview. Step 1) the flank: a refutation from the esteemed Father Deacon Dr. Hume first. If I were to ask you is homosexuality is unbecoming of the gentleman, and you retorted yes, and I asked you to justify that it is the case, how would thou justifieth? You'd go to the written word within the bible et al , or listen to what a church member whom your worldview ad hocly has thrusted authority to, and if they say homosexuality is wrong you'd say this justifies it essentially. Say, how is that not deriving and ought from an is? I ask, have you read my work? Hume speaking. You are claiming you possess such knowledge, because your fickle sense data allows you to see a book makes a given claim or a person says it is so. Unless you use reason alone (sola reason) such as in natural theology, aren't you necessarily going to be making the error of assuming and IS can give you an Ought? One duly cornered & desperation ensues against Hume: you’re next move must be to appeal to the fact it's a meta-level question and it's the entire Orthodox worldview that is the justification not the evidence of a church member or the bible claiming something. Step 2) The Skirmish: my next question would be ""But are you not then being completely ad hoc and saying it's always wrong to get try and get an OUGHT from a IS, unless it's Orthodox Christianity and suddenly it's magically (whilst such miracles do not exist, chaps) okay to and dare I say it - even necessary? You claim this isn't an ad hoc distinction by essentially a weird form of pragmatism where you've actually given up on true justification. You argue that any ad hoc claims and ad hoc appeals to authority are suddenly justified when it's supporting an orthodox Christian paradigm simply because these ad hoc claims have been paired up with sound epistemology and metaphysics ect (though not really given this argument is literally proving the Christian worldview doesn't actually have sound epistemology in itself). A. Why can't I accept the properly justified claims in isolation of the wider packaged ad hoc claims within the worldview. And B. Isn't this still getting an ought from an Is ultimately in a meta-way because rather than dreaming up potential worldviews, you have relied on your sense data to find out what claims are out there in the world / culture and latched onto the one out of those limited options which you think is most sound, when in reality you could sit there and use reason alone to think of countless worldviews, each with identical sound epistemology and metaphysics. And C, Pragmatism is admitted within your own paradigm to be invalid for justification and it essentially can only be used as our best guess where uncertainty is inherent, so it's only useful for like dealing with higher material evidences, so clearly material or historical claims inherently cannot provide justification for a worldview. If you can be ad hoc, or appeal to pragmatism (ie. my worldview is true enough even if I can't justify it properly), then so can all the pragmatic empiricists (myself you’re empiricist grandaddy Hume), materialists, and anyone else who relies upon classical foundationalism because they no longer have to justify their self-evident claims as long as they pragmatically lead to a true-enough worldview. Ergo, relying on a material source or set of sources as certainly true just because they get some parts of their philosophy true, is completely self-refuting and makes epistemology and therefore knowledge / judgement past ad hocness literally impossible. This is an embarrassment to my enterprise. (Kant enters) - Hallo Hume, I see you have something of the sorts of the Prussian fire rumbling in your belly, you successfully tapped the OP, however, you didn’t go quite far enough. I prefer the double-tap variety, in fact this is my basal axiom that one ought to always double tap. Although, correction dear Hume, miracles do exist as our opponent manages to only debate the lowest stock. So, I do agree with presuppositionalism up to the point that it properly justifies logos / logic, and transcendental categories as a whole through the impossibility of the contrary. And I do agree that these categories are interlocking, and elements of reality all correspond with each other and work together perfectly, so you could infer the existence of a God from that as a kind of meta-logical fine-tuning argument. But I don't agree that God's existence necessarily follows from presuppositional argumentation or especially that specifically a given idea of God such as the Orthodox Christian God must exist for logic to be objectively true and for knowledge to be possible. I watched the Jay vs Matt Dillamonkey debate & I must say I was left unsatisfied and perturbed. My understanding is you argue presup can give you God because if you only use presup to justify logic, then the impossibility of the contrary justification we're using may just reflect the limitations of my own mind as oppossed to the limits of actual objective reality as a whole. Whereas if you believe in God, it provides a "reason' why our minds would be tailored to really be able to see objective truth. My question is this, you are deploying an epistemological nihilism argument against presup in isolation to God. But isn't presup and the necessary fact of human knowledge to be possible within each and every claim we make a refutation of EN? Because if not, and EN is a defeater for presuppositionalism, then I fail to see how EN wouldn't be a defeater for your worldview and TAG as well, and literally every possible worldview one can conjure up. The entire point of presup is that it's meant to be the justification, so if it only justifies knowledge if you then must believe in an additional claim (God exists) which is itself dependent upon the objectivity of logic to be knowable, then clearly presuppositionalism doesn't actually justify logic then so if you claim "oh yes presuppositionalism can work despite not justifying logic, we just need to accept my ad hoc claim based on the very now unjustified thing (reasoning), that could just be the limitations of my mind, to think of a way within my mind to prove that my mind isn't limited. Clearly the only actual meta-logical or justificatory element of TAG is specifically in the impossibility of the contrary, the idea of God IS logically contingent and not meta-logical by virtue of the fact it's a claim judged by logic which doesn't directly unavoidably impact logic, so TAG is basically a fallacy. I'll grant that maybe presuppositionalism proves logic, and then given that it's perhaps most reasonable to assume God exists or even that the Orthodox Christian God exists after that out of all the relevant alternatives, but I do not grant that God is a self-justifying claim unless you want to claim "God" is just a synonymous term with "logos / logic". Hume responds: don’t even get me started on my cause and effect critique. Has anyone ever read me? Funnily enough I used to be Orthodox, but with some free afternoons and basic philosophy I left that quagmire. I advise you kindly, warmly, earnestly, do not make thy nest there. In conclusion gentlemen, I think we can all agree that one is more likely to prove that a tornado has the attribute of “being correct”, than they are to surmount any of the problems we’ve imparted onto thee with this sophist-symphony. (Both speaking in unison): We have come to a gentlemen’s agreement, and how dare you use us as a crutch for promoting transcendental arguments, when our arguments transcend your own heads. Hans Hermann Hoppe: Oh dear Orthobro, I know the hold these comfy States (which we know are unacceptable always) have on one who should be a free-thinking sovereign individual. Now I may be an Ancap, but even I in my humble state can dispel such fantasies. To which I hope this letter finds you well. P. S. I’ve never interacted with relativists who claim to believe in objectivity before, any questions about your epistemological nihilism (E. schizophrenia argument) and why it’s wrong, Hoppe’s got you covered. P. P. S. Any moderator posts going for Libertarian debates, I’ll be totally fair!

Pray for Vigano. A true hero

@baldwinthefourth4098

25 күн бұрын

I am not a Vigano hater but still, he did say that Francis is not the Pope, which is wrong.

@VincentVu846

25 күн бұрын

Pray for him to repent of his schism.

@fotisvon9943

25 күн бұрын

Vigano is out of his mind

@okj9060

25 күн бұрын

Your joking.

@joenguyen9475

24 күн бұрын

You mean a Martin Luther wannabe. The devil has upgraded , from monk to bishop as his instrument..😮