Hope y'all enjoy the video! This one's a bit of a return to form for me, so I hope it's well-liked. As a warning, this video goes into brief discussions of transphobia from 29 minutes- 31 minutes in. Please proceed with caution.

@RhizometricReality

2 жыл бұрын

It's almost like the functions of the state apparatus, especially in how it objectifies, functions of its manufactured culture, the functions of labour extraction for money, all are reductive of personhood, reificating the alienation needed to sell You. The whole social order of society is built on extracting value from the individual, converting their agency and autonomy into commodities to exploit, even when the transaction is clicks and likes, not even material monetary gain. Social orders molded around this ontological nightmare of capitalist realism. Fictional gains all the way down, to the blood soaked pit of human lives thrown asunder.

@briankirz231

2 жыл бұрын

This one’s my favorite of yours! A lot of high concept stuff explained in a way that’s really easy to understand

@juststatedtheobvious9633

2 жыл бұрын

Well done. Well reasoned. You converted me. But. How are we supposed to handle situations where someone, with power, really is dark triad, and a direct danger to our lives? I worry that instead of an easily exploited outrage culture, we'll have an easily exploited outrage fatigue. I mean, we live in a situation where one of the major US political parties has defended violence to protest imaginary election fraud, after also protesting basic pandemic safety precautions during a pandemic that's already killed more Americans than any of our wars. And you couldn't use them as an example of predators weaponizing fake victimization, because it would make you a target too. And that's just the start of things we accept as normal now. How far will these trends go? They're not just limited to North America.

@toriestrella

2 жыл бұрын

@@juststatedtheobvious9633 yes, well, the thing to probably not do is to make a 20-second post on social media about it. It misses the point and really is no platform to present anything with detail and nuance.

@tidalgrunt6549

2 жыл бұрын

I wish I hadn't seen this comment. Trigger warnings do the opposite of helping.

"While I don't have a psychology degree I do watch a lot of criminal minds" this sentence dealt me so much psychic damage why must the internet be like this

@HeavyOverlords

2 жыл бұрын

I literally yelled at my Screen when I heard the sentence. The lack of selfawareness from the person saying it is unbelievable...

@mushroomshrub

2 жыл бұрын

I wanted to throw my damn phone at the wall

@OmniSonic

2 жыл бұрын

"I don't have a medical degree but I do watch a lot of House M.D."

@graquinn4058

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah that part made me want to fucking vomit lmao

@fishbrain9591

2 жыл бұрын

@@graquinn4058 I saw your pfp and thought you were me for a second lol

As a body language expert it's clear from the way Sarah sits on her couch & drinks her tea & looks straight ahead into the camera that she's recording some kind of video

@oONanniOo

2 жыл бұрын

I, an empath, can tell from your comment that you are talking about Sarah's body language

@nickchambers3935

2 жыл бұрын

Gosh that makes so much sense. I always knew there was something off about her

@taylor-

2 жыл бұрын

+

@mars_is_cooler

2 жыл бұрын

I'm in no way an expert but I also sit on couches and can tell Sarah actually hates tea and has several people in her basement

@dragoncatoverload

2 жыл бұрын

From the reflection in the window I can tell she is using a spotlight in order to draw attention to herself.

when are ppl gonna realize that “being an asshole” and “actual abuse” are not equivalent

@oulafursson

2 жыл бұрын

Probably never -- I only see accelerating of this phenomenon in the future, tbh

@ekki1993

2 жыл бұрын

People who want an excuse to be assholes to others while feeling righteous don't care about the difference.

@andrewcapra7153

2 жыл бұрын

Honestly, I know nothing of the Caleb situation outside of what was said in this video, but hearing the description of his actions framed as inherently malicious and abusive made my blood run cold, because quite a lot of it feels very similar to the defensive dating 'strategy' of someone who has been in an abusive relationship in the past. You lavish them in praise and affection to keep them in a good mood and minimize the risk of violence. You overstate how serious you are about the relationship (including 'personalized' gifts) to test if they're going to try and take advantage of someone who falls in love too easily. You keep constantly vigilant for any possible signs of controlling, possessive, or isolating behavior. And always make sure that you can disappear from their lives entirely if they show the slightest hint of a red flag. Sure, it's entirely likely that Caleb is just a huge jackass, but seeing the same kind of behavior that someone who's deeply hurting would display being framed as some devilish and predatory behavior is very uncomfortable.

@katykatmeow5159

2 жыл бұрын

I've had this problem when talking about things in my past before. Like, I'll talk about some asshole teacher in my religious school I had growing up and some people are so quick to jump to the conclusion that that person was abusive. And I'm like, no, they were absolutely a dick and they had terrible opinions, but I definitely don't think they qualify as abusive. And there's been a few times where the person will insist that that person must have been abusive and I have been deluded into not seeing that they were abusive. And it's like 1) no, I'm a fully rational functional adult and I'm capable of knowing if that person was abusive or not and implying that I can't feels very condescending, and 2) often times I get the feeling that there's a bit of projecting going on and what they're saying isn't really about my experiences and feelings

@yourstruly9013

2 жыл бұрын

@@katykatmeow5159 fully agree and have also had this experience. People start projecting so hard and will not believe you if you say someone was just an ass, not an abuser. It's ridiculous.

It's really telling how Couch Guy's girlfriend was treated. Everyone was trying to make the point that they were helping her, but when she didn't immediately break up with her boyfriend, they turned on her. This wasn't about helping her, it was about fulfilling a true crime fantasy

@Drekromancer

2 жыл бұрын

This.

@EinDose

2 жыл бұрын

And the evidence they've got about Couch Guy isn't actually speaking to anything clear when there's an equally plausible answer of 'his girlfriend just turned up unexpectedly, maybe he's just not emotionally quick on the uptake on the level TV and movies tell you someone should be, and so hasn't had the time to get happy yet'. The emotional equivalent of 'don't attribute to malice what could easily be stupidity'.

@fyraltari1889

2 жыл бұрын

Why am I not surprised...

@dyrnwynski

2 жыл бұрын

@@EinDose it doesn't even have to be that. Like, maybe he is not happy to see her? That would be fine. It is not a requirement to always be happy for your SO to be present. It's pretty normal actually.

@goodiesohhi

2 жыл бұрын

Literal gaslighting.

I don't have a psychology degree but I can tell by Sarah's body language and speech patterns that she's gotten into legal trouble with homestuck before

@donnelwaddledee965

2 жыл бұрын

You could tell by the way she sits, the way she moves her hands, and that time she said in a previous video that she got into legal trouble with homestuck.

@potatoesstarch2376

2 жыл бұрын

@@donnelwaddledee965 Well, you can tell by the way I use my walk I’m a woman’s man, no time to talk

@donnelwaddledee965

2 жыл бұрын

@@potatoesstarch2376 I can tell by your words that you're staying alive, I repeat staying alive

@xuxuang8574

2 жыл бұрын

She definitely has that vibe about her...

@watsonwrote

Жыл бұрын

A+ comment

It's like a digital stoning. One stone isn't gonna kill them but when everyone just wants to throw one, you have just destroyed a person.

@aerialdive

2 жыл бұрын

@@creativeuserneim the term youre looking for is called "dogpiling"

@gingerdog8203

2 жыл бұрын

@@creativeuserneim how was it misappropriation, is stoning not when multiple people throw stones at one specific target of people/a person?

@UnreasonableOpinions

2 жыл бұрын

@@creativeuserneim It's a directly-relevant simile that conveys a clear meaning of a group collectively punishing someone in a way that leaves no person technically the one who did the damage but the final outcome devastating. That's the whole point of simile and metaphor.

@claynorth964

2 жыл бұрын

@@creativeuserneim so your "over" all the people using gaslighting and love bombing incorrectly too?

@Hakajin

2 жыл бұрын

Wow, what an apt metaphor!

to quote a tumblr post i saw today, "all of you west elm caleb girlies would not last one day on lesbian hinge. ive had two different people block me because im an aries. i had someone send me zillow listing for the house she wanted us to buy together and then she ghosted me because her ex proposed. imagine how tired we are"

@HeyItsNovalee

2 жыл бұрын

SERIOUSLY, me thinking about the multitudes of girls that have ghosted me 😭😭 like this really never once was about feminism or fighting misogyny or whatever because so many women do exactly the same thing but noooo one seemed to mention that. You have to wonder who exactly was the “we” these people were talking about while crying feminism when so many women and other people clearly weren’t included under their umbrella of “activism” But honestly are we even surprised at this point

@CatLady-9327

2 жыл бұрын

"I've had two different people block me because i'm an aries." That's such an aries thing to say.

@Beto_Serrano

2 жыл бұрын

@@HeyItsNovalee Maybe because the feminism they talk about is nothing but the corporate (normally white-only), deranged and toxic "feminism" that is so emblematic on the USA.

@schmittywerbenjagermanjens2649

2 жыл бұрын

Bro for reaaaallll. Dating women, you just have to expect shit like this all the time. Girls do this kind of shit all the time, where’s my liberation movement damnit!

@lnt305

2 жыл бұрын

@@CatLady-9327 I’ve been informed that my complaints about the popularity of astrology in the lgbt community are a very Gemini thing 😄

"I don't have a psychology degree but I do watch a lot of criminal minds" is the kind of thing people write as parody and that person said it without a hint of self awareness. How deeply depressing.

@Bitchpleasistan

Жыл бұрын

I detected traces of irony in their delivery, but it's not a hill I'd die on. (My sense is that the person in that video was making at least a little fun of themselves for weighing in. Can be hard to tell since TikTok has a lot of casual unseriousness about it.)

@kaipoland3174

Жыл бұрын

@@Bitchpleasistan yeah i detected that as well but i wasnt sure about it either.

@PopfulFrost

Жыл бұрын

@@kaipoland3174 Whether it's ironic or not doesn't matter. Those words came out of that person's mouth, and this did not prompt them to rethink what they were doing.

@Homodemon

Жыл бұрын

@@Bitchpleasistan Being self aware of being full of shit doesn't make you any less full of shit, it just makes you... Self aware, but unwilling to shut up.

@SwiftyStardust

Жыл бұрын

I felt a part of my soul die the moment those words were said

The "I'm not a psychologist but I love criminal minds so I'm really into judging people based only on their body language" person is terrifying

@margaretgibbs6673

2 жыл бұрын

And then these same keyboard activists sometimes have the nerve to talk about how important it is to undo bias in the criminal justice system. Lord help us all.

@AleTitan

2 жыл бұрын

@@margaretgibbs6673 I doubt it's the SAME people

@PraveenKumar-bo7fw

2 жыл бұрын

She is a stupid kid. Most people have some stupid ideas when they were young. I don't thing she is malicious. She should definitely not have the reach she has.

@Goldenfur12698

2 жыл бұрын

i literally thought that was a fuckin joke when i heard it. and then she kept going and i realized how serious she was :((((

@CutiePieKindom

2 жыл бұрын

Ale Titan a lot of them are, unfortunately lol

I swear... The rise of "body language analyses" is so infuriating to me. People act like it is an actual science when it is not. Every person comes loaded with their own context and this impacts their "body language". That's why you might be able to tell that your BFF is trying to keep a surprise party secret from you, but you can't tell that a complete stranger is having an affair from 20 seconds of body language.

@JesseColton

2 жыл бұрын

I've hated every one of those that I've seen. It grosses me out and it always reeks of someone exploiting a situation to get attention using pseudoscience.

@genericspectator3094

2 жыл бұрын

it also alienates people who dont have "standard" body language. my first thought is autistic people but it could probably apply other situations

@agraham9099

2 жыл бұрын

I almost screamed when Sarah shared that clip of a tiktokker saying they may not have a degree in psychology but they do watch a lot of criminal minds oh, good, you’re very good at uncritically consuming copaganda* and believe in fake tv science. that’s awesome. *critically consuming copaganda is watching brooklyn 99 for the wholesome gay content

@Author.Noelle.Alexandria

2 жыл бұрын

When body language is used by actual experts, it is NOT a single scratch to the nose on its own taken as a sign of lies. I's numerous signs taken together that are consistent and with consideration of cultural differences. A good 10 years ago or so a girl was expelled from her school because it was determined that she was lying about something. I don't remember what, and it's irrelevant. She was determined to be lying since she avoided eye-contact with adult men while she was being questioned. Turns out that women in the culture she was raised in aren't supposed to look men in the eyes. ACTUAL expects know this stuff, and don't take body language as proof, only as a guide on how to proceed next. Quite different than a three-second video clip or a screencap being used to condemn.

@Author.Noelle.Alexandria

2 жыл бұрын

@@agraham9099 Over the years, it's been reported that jurors who admit watching a lot of procedural dramas are often excused due to how many of them think that procedural show are true. "Beyond a reasonable doubt" is often believed to be "beyond a shadows of doubt." A defendant not read miranda rights is likely to be seen as having their rights violation even though cops don't have to recite that. Etc.

To everyone who thinks doxxing West Elm Caleb was fair retribution, I ask you to consider: Are you currently defined by the worst thing you've ever done?

@95rossc

Жыл бұрын

Due to mental illness and seeing stories like this, that is quite often how I define myself.

@steelfox1448

Жыл бұрын

@@95rossc same :c

@venusgin7779

Жыл бұрын

To my family? Absolutely.

@cottage-core_

Жыл бұрын

+

@sorejack

Жыл бұрын

I think I remember in school something being bad? A scarlet letter or something?

I can’t imagine being Sabrina Prater in that situation. She only posted a video of herself dancing and the internet started misgendering her and saying she killed someone like what the fuck

@saintsea-hat7891

2 жыл бұрын

Cis people will do anything they can to hurt us. It’s a fact of life.

@TheEepyMagi

Жыл бұрын

It scares me, as a trans woman

@katefresina832

Жыл бұрын

@@TheEepyMagi and then she was forced to come out. That is so horrible

@aubreylockwood4792

Жыл бұрын

Watching this now, it really, really fucks with me. Being a neurodivergent transfemme, it’s yet another reminder of the layers upon layers of masking and trying to appear normal to people. We’re so acutely aware of what happens when we’re seen as a little bit off. I saw her dancing and thought she looked cute. She reminded me of some really sweet friends I have who I really care about. The fact that other people saw that and thought “serial killer?” I don’t even know what to say. I think I’m gonna go cry for a bit

@cottage-core_

Жыл бұрын

+

There was a tragic hilarity to the girl proudly announcing "While I don't have any psychology degrees, I do watch Criminal Minds" as if that is somehow an actual accolade that makes her an expert in any way.

@charlesbaldwin3166

2 жыл бұрын

Its a step below saying no but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

@bernebelmont1857

2 жыл бұрын

I watched Matlock in a bar last night, the sound was off but I got the gist of it

@dvillines26

2 жыл бұрын

I'm like, "yeah, this is a systemic issue, but that girl should delete her account and touch grass"

@larissabrglum3856

2 жыл бұрын

That was a real bruh moment for me

@windwaker407

2 жыл бұрын

That's the kind of statement you make ironically... yknow, as a joke. Like...homegirl just announced to the fucking world how out of touch with reality she is by unironically saying that. Body language pseudo-science is a huge problem. Any number of gestures or mannerisms can mean any number of things. Stiff body language can convey discomfort, but it can also convey shyness or even autism. Defensiveness can indicate guilt, but it can also indicate fear of not knowing how to properly defend yourself even though you really are innocent. No rando on the internet can come up with a definitive conclusion based on body language analysis, nor do they have any right to. This is the private relationship of people you don't know. It's none of your business. Keep your two cents to yourself. Even if you argue that by uploading the clip, they made it everyone elses business, but it was the girlfriend who recorded the clip, and last I checked, she wasn't the one getting every aspect of herself psychoanalyzed as a result of it

The absolutely unhinged shit of “Yeah, I know those girls on the couch. I think we ALL know those girls” is what truly ruins my brain. They’re literally just sitting there but these true crime people will act like there’s a secret sociopath hiding behind every door.

@overgrownkudzu

2 жыл бұрын

yeah they're projecting their own bad experience with someone on these random people they don't even know

@Carrottastic

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah, I lost it at "I'm not an expert on body language, but I do watch a lot of criminal minds." like that sounds like satire, pls tell me it's satire

@mhawang8204

2 жыл бұрын

That clip and the Criminal Minds girl were the most terrifying parts to me. One thing that jumps out was this woman looked older, so it's not just juvenile teenagers having a laugh playing private detectives. And to project their own perception to rile up the mob ("WE ALL KNOW") is just so vile. I lost a little bit of faith in humanity seeing that.

@Clickstop24

2 жыл бұрын

@@mhawang8204 She is Peggy Hill irl. The kind of person that likes to pretend they know more than they actually do to the point where she apparently even fooled herself. I only pray she was just playing this up for clout.

As someone with a Hinge, the nude photo story isn't true. The app doesn't allow you to send photos

@leejames929

Жыл бұрын

I did not think it was true. It was very odd to me that only one person got a nude. When dudes are into sending unwanted nudes they tend to send them to more then one person

"The abuser adopts the language of the abused." This. This is so prevalent and can make any discussion hard to navigate.

@skootties

Жыл бұрын

It's extremely important to remember this. Abusers are not selective about who/what they abuse, because they're defined by a willingness to act outside of socially-agreed-upon boundaries. They will happily abuse language to protect themselves from scrutiny and even to perpetrate further abuse. The solution is to make our language less abusable. When the meanings of terms like "love bombing" and "gaslighting" are well-defined in the public consciousness, it's difficult to abuse them, because the amount of deception necessary to convince people that those terms are being used appropriately becomes unmanageable. If "love-bombing", to you, just means "being overly nice but in a creepy way I guess", there is a huge amount of ambiguity there that can be exploited by an abuser to convince you that just about any kind gesture is "love-bombing" and therefore bad. Conversely, the same ambiguity can be used by an apologist to dismiss any accusations of love-bombing as just paranoia on your part. Ambiguity is not in itself a problem. It's an unavoidable part of language, and poetry and other artful uses of language often depend on ambiguity. But in the arena of social power, it's a vulnerability. Terms that are used to brand people as being either undesirable or unimpeachable are weapons in this arena, and they should be secured from those who would abuse them.

@alim.9801

9 ай бұрын

Is that kinda like DARVO, like same kinda principle?

@kaitlyn__L

9 ай бұрын

@@alim.9801 yeah, specifically it's the "RVO" part given a bit more poetry

@devynnhanson

8 ай бұрын

@@skootties very well put, thank you. The co-option of these terms not only equip abusers with language to, well abuse, but it also takes away the tools given to people to ask for help. I was in an intensive out patient program (IOP) for around four months, and many people there were hesitant to describe genuinely bad situations with terms like “gaslighting” and “trauma” when they should’ve, because the feared not being taken seriously. Which in turn caused additional pain to an already upsetting situation. The term “gaslighting” has become a meme, so how can someone seriously ask for help when most people have heard it used facetiously

I'm honestly disgusted by how casual people are with doxxing people. People can get in serious danger because of a doxx.

@amerashi1111

2 жыл бұрын

@Kay E Bruh

@asaasssddd

2 жыл бұрын

@Kay E lol did you get ghosted by Caleb

@GetOfflineGetGood

2 жыл бұрын

Should be reserved for Nazis and actually dangerous people in positions of power

@Excaviliar

2 жыл бұрын

@Kay E They shouldn’t be doxxed either, what’s your point?

@tempesttossed6029

2 жыл бұрын

@Kay E if you dont see the problem, it's because you're part of it.

When the woman in that clip said "I don't have a psychology degree, but I do watch a lot of Criminal Minds", I think I pulled a muscle rolling my eyes.

@sycastells1212

2 жыл бұрын

I snorted. It would br hilarious if it wasn't so horrifying

@MasterOphSky

2 жыл бұрын

Shows like Criminal Minds will make up shit to sound scientific, to tie an episode's theme or plot together, or sometimes quite simply to further a writer's bias or agenda. An important lesson to keep in mind when watching something; if you learned it from media, it's likely fake. They'll use real cases as inspiration, draw on professional testimonies, even potentially have a background in the topic. But writers will always change how their fictional world works to make the story make sense.

@anska7475

2 жыл бұрын

I thought it was a bit scary, because by the end she sounded so happily eager as if embarking on a fun diy project „I have never held a hammer in my life but I‘ve watched a lot of crafting videos on youtube and so today, I am going to build a birdfeeder“

@Manoomu

2 жыл бұрын

Ok so, if she was someone I knew at a party, this would be a fun aside. Of course she doesn't know anything but it's fun to talk about, and if it was me and 4 other people it would be a fun dish session. But when she's one of many thousands people abusing a single man as a means of social clout it's very different, though i'm sure to her she's just having a fun aside at a party. How people think they're using social media is so different to what social media's effects actually are. They're not joking with friends, they're yelling in an auditorium. To us she seems like she's saying why she should be heard among millions, though i'm sure to her she was establishing that she shouldn't be listened to at all.

@yuza1032

2 жыл бұрын

I keep having to pause the video and alt tab out to something else for a long while because of the TikToks. For some reason that one set me off the most and I had to message my friend telling him this was something someone actually said and I couldn't take it.

" but I *do* watch a lot of Criminal Minds" spoken with absolute confidence blew my mind. How do people get like this??

@ScotterOtter

2 жыл бұрын

Dunning-Kruger.

@katherinealvarez9216

Жыл бұрын

They switch education and experience with entertainment and likes.

@Shmaples

Жыл бұрын

I laughed so hard.. that was comedy gold.. then I remembered it's real and I got sad.. but it's still hilarious.

@user-qd8yy9lc4g

Жыл бұрын

_image_ _of_ _Barron_ _Trump_ _in_ _"The Expert"_ _shirt_ _momentarily_ _appears_ _on_ _screen_

@elyca6329

Жыл бұрын

As someone who has a PhD in psychology (yes, for real) and is a trained clinical psychologist, my reaction to that was... 🤦‍♀️

We've finally created the panopticon from the classic Sarah Z video "Don't Create The Panopticon"

@wertyppl

17 күн бұрын

So that's where the Federal Bureau of Control got the idea from!

Sick of people misusing terms like “love bombing” like I’m sorry but a new person being super affectionate towards you and then ghosting you is not love bombing. Love bombing usually refers to when an abuser will shower the person they are abusing in gifts or attention in an attempt to “minimize” the harm they’ve caused. It’s an awful manipulation tactic that contributes to people feeling stuck in abusive relationships and it bothers me that terms like that are being thrown around so frivolously online.

@nervousbreakdown711

2 жыл бұрын

Between the misuse of “love bombing” and “gaslighting,” advocates for domestic violence victims are gonna have to use completely new terms

@lulujones

2 жыл бұрын

Also (I'm not an expert at all) but doesn't ghosting someone sort of invalidate the love bombing claim? Like if you don't carry on stringing the person along then it's not really love bombing as the abuser gets no real benefit out of being nice in the first place

@katherinealvarez9216

2 жыл бұрын

Exactly!

@katherinealvarez9216

2 жыл бұрын

@@nervousbreakdown711 pretty much.

@user-rz3nu3lm5r

2 жыл бұрын

@Kay E his actions were def scummy but being an asshole isn’t always tantamount to being an abuser. The way we use words matter, especially language used to describe domestic abuse.

One thing that INFURIATED me about the Couch Guy thing was how people treated the girlfriend, calling her an idiot for not "seeing the obvious." When she lashed out at people for harassing her and her boyfriend en masse and telling her to dump him (like she was supposed to dump her boyfriend on the word of literal STRANGERS), I saw a lot of people being like, "We're trying to help you!" and I was like, "NO the fuck you aren't." These people didn't care one whit about her, because they refused to STOP no matter how much she begged them to. My fyp was full of self-righteous vultures who presumed to know more about a relationship from a 19-second clip than the girl who was literally IN the relationship, and who gleefully turned on her too the second she refused to just roll over and let them have their fun at her boyfriend's expense.

@margaretgibbs6673

2 жыл бұрын

Exactly. The sheer presumption of it all, too: like I really wish these people would have, at any point, stopped and let themselves consider that they were a bunch of strangers to this couple. They didn't know the dude or the girl let alone anything about their relationship. And they were demanding these two strangers break up because they had decided based on the *flimsiest* over-analyzed "evidence", that this man, again, a stranger, was a bad boyfriend - nay, a terrible person! They weren't even this woman's friends or family or anything, but they had the gall to tell her they basically knew better than her, what was good for her based off...that.

@kanvaros4451

2 жыл бұрын

I think what is truly terrifying is what that woman said about “we all know these girls .” So many people are bringing their own preconceived notions , or ascribing their own character to these people that they’ve never met or seen beyond 19 seconds !!

@DDoubleEDouble

2 жыл бұрын

@@kanvaros4451 exactly! It’s pure projection and a total lack of self awareness. Let’s “nOrMaLiSe” speaking for ourselves lol 🙄

@xoxojustno6971

2 жыл бұрын

Complete hypocrisy at his finest

@kanvaros4451

2 жыл бұрын

@@DDoubleEDouble what’s terrifying is it’s like the Barnum effect , these people use “near universal truths” and extrapolate and ascribe these to these people

I can’t imagine being so conceited that when a person is kinda rude to me on a dating app, that my first instinct would be to push for that person to lose their job (which is completely unrelated to their dating life) and then shame people for “hating women” when they don’t agree with me.

@cifge_404

2 жыл бұрын

Well, clearly, _you_ hate women because you don't think men should face the absolute worst consequences negotiable for hurting a woman's feelings.

@arandomcomment1092

Жыл бұрын

Very sure that qualifies as being a narcissist.

@4nn4h

Жыл бұрын

Ikr?? Like it's fine to complain to your friends about the experience (I've done that, sometimes at great length - sorry friends) but keep that stuff private. You'll forget about it in a couple of months, that's how little it matters.

@jwbrooks55

4 ай бұрын

Hell truly hath no fury

You know what my psych professors in college all had in common? None of them ever mentioned body language.

@kyrus4989

2 ай бұрын

Same. Well, the one who did bring it up mentioned that it was a bullshit science and supposed human lie detectors were scam artists.

I’m autistic. I don’t emote very well, I get uncomfortable smiling, and I frequently misinterpret tone both in real life and on the internet. The idea of some person filming me and getting labeled as a psychopath by complete strangers is fucking haunting and emotionally exhausting. All of this is absolutely horrible but thank you for including how neurodivergents get targeted at an even greater level

@bee1411

2 жыл бұрын

I’m really glad she mentioned neurodiversity as well! I’m also autistic, but for me I am the opposite in nature. I over-emote if I cannot mask, and I’m usually uncomfortable in clothing so I’m always shifting around and moving. I also have a lot of energy and I emote a lo with my handst/talk quickly, so I’ve had people assume I’m on drugs quite a few times. I cannot even imagine how I would feel if what happened to this poor man happened to me.

@nowheredan27

2 жыл бұрын

Same, it always scares me that I might do something or act a certain way and trigger this response in people unwillingly.

@Blacknight8850

2 жыл бұрын

Same here - I've even had to make a conscious effort to look people in the eye more when I talk to them because I was coming across as disinterested. But the idea that I'm somehow inadvertently signalling my contempt and hostility for someone because my knees weren't pointing the right way when I spoke to them, and everyone else can see that but me, is like something out of a horror movie!

@butasimpleidiotwizard

2 жыл бұрын

@@Blacknight8850 it's funny because this kind of obsessive hyperanalysing of a person's body language in order to ""prove"" that they have some secret negative feelings towards you that they're lying about is quite literally an abuse tactic, it's similar to gaslighting in that it's goal is to get you to be hypervigilant about everything you do and expect at all times that you are doing something wrong so you learn to always apologise and blame yourself and never hold the abuser accountable, this is also a great example of how a "red flag" isn't necessarily a red flag and it certainly isn't automatically abuse, because abuse has to be persistent over an extended period of time to the point where it's a recognisable pattern of behaviour to count, I highly doubt any of these people are doing this kind of body language analysis often, most of them probably only feel validated in making these judgements because it's the internet and this guy is the internet's new favourite punching bag, it does scare me though because my brother's abusive ex friends have been trying to use tiktok to spread rumours that he's a murderer (it's literally vile, I can't get into the details but its specifically intended to trigger my brother's trauma and its fucking evil) and I am always just a bit frightened that they're going to get too much attention and it's going to get out of hand and people are gonna start coming for him even though he's the victim in this situation, and while he has made mistakes (that they were usually equally involved in) he's the one who's actively healing and bettering himself while they continue to lie and spread rumours about him and vandalise our house two years after he cut them off because they just can't let it go. Point is though, only fucked up weirdos read into people's behaviour like that and if someone starts doing that to you get out of there, they're the dangerous ones, not you

@BobbyCalloway

2 жыл бұрын

Yep. I'm autistic and I'm also an actor, and Sweet Jesus the amount of times I'm offered these generic creepy bad guy roles never stops being upsetting. It's clearly because they see the way I move and think it's alien enough that they can just put me on a screen and the audience will instantly go "creepy! stay away!" I had to basically take most of them early on just to get experience or build up my CV, telling myself I was just particularly good at playing the bad guy (likely got plenty of experience on the other end being routinely bullied and abused growing up), but eventually I had to give myself a little rule that I'd no longer accept those roles solely for the sake of my mental health (I had to play an abusive boyfriend as a favor to a friend last minute a couple of years ago and it was so triggering and upsetting I can't even watch the film). I don't even have any bad guy roles on my showreel, aside from one stern cop. I do have to hold out the grudging belief that if Netflix or the big leagues ever come calling, I'm going to have to swallow my pride and take a lot of $$$ for the sake of career advancement. Oh and I was also advised to take being autistic off my CV by a casting director "in case it makes people think you'll be difficult on set" - but sure I probably dodged a bullet in Sia not approaching me for Music. Heartwarmingly enough, once I met other autistic filmmakers, they've given me the chance to play all kinds of different parts (I got to be a heroic zombie hunter last September :D) and I recently had a film in cinemas where everyone in it was an asshole and I was the most sympathetic of them all. But then there are times when I completely contradict myself and be like "okay THAT bad guy was fun to play". I guess my rule is that 'evil and fun' or 'evil and sexy' are the exceptions (I have yet to play evil and sexy but a man can dream lol).

The pathologizing language is the worst part imo. Everyone I dislike is a narcissistic, abusive, gaslighting sociopath. No such thing as assholes, disagreements, or honest mistakes: the only person acting in good faith is me. It’s disgusting.

@Drekromancer

2 жыл бұрын

Hard agree. It's just license to fully dehumanize whatever target you set your sights on. At that point, nobody is allowed to defend them anymore.

@Aster_Risk

2 жыл бұрын

Honestly, what happened to simply calling someone an asshole, a dick, a jerk, childish, mean, insensitive, etc.? None of those are diagnoses.

@marvelousTUD

2 жыл бұрын

@@Aster_Risk It's like Sarah said in the "pro-shippers vs antis" video, over-stating harm is the trend right now. With the way things are right now victimhood and grievance are a kind of social capital, so whoever is the most offended, downtrodden, or hurt wins my default. If my ex calls me a jerk, that sucks, but it's not a crime. If I call him a manipulative gaslighting sociopath, that's pretty terrible, I'm oppressed, and I win.

@ruthkinyon4665

2 жыл бұрын

I want to push back on you on one point there: "abuser" is not a pathologizing term. It's a description of someone's actions (accurate or not) rather than a diagnosis of a disordered mental state. People absolutely do use it inaccurately, but it's not pathologizing

@mechanomics2649

2 жыл бұрын

@@marvelousTUD This's some anti-SJW mess.

It's scary how quickly everyone moved on after destroying this guy's life, it's hard to find relevant videos or articles or follow ups about this post-March. Gotta move on to the next villain of the day ASAP. Content brain.

Couch Guy was the "story" that actually made me quit using TikTok, and largely most social medial, at all. It seemed such a blaise, plain video: a girl surprises her long distance boyfriend and the boyfriend reacts. But then everybody called the boyfriend a cheating POS because he didn't jump for joy or something. But, like, his reaction was completely normal and warranted. I know I wouldn't be immediately jumping for joy if I got a surprise like that from my partner. I'd of course be happy to see them, but my mind would be immediately racing with thoughts like "oh my gosh how much was her plane ticket, I could have helped pay for it", "where is she sleeping, does she already have a hotel rented, or is she expecting to stay here? Are my roommates going to be cool with that?", "We just ate dinner and there's nothing left, is she hungry?". Plenty of people don't automatically love surprises, but those comments I saw calling him a POS and doxxing him just made me realize I needed to step away from the platform for good. There was also a KZreadr I really liked but unsubbed from after they basically said that Couch Guy was cheating on his girlfriend and doubled down on it after the guy said nothing was wrong with their relationship.

At this point I consider "body language experts" about on the same level as the people who used to stab every inch of a suspected witch's body with needles to see if she would react in a way that would "prove" that she is a witch.

@SammySam191

2 жыл бұрын

Y E S, OMG YES, THIS! Honestly, we are talking about body language in my communication class and me and the teacher are constantly like "THIS MAY BE A CLUE TO [a thing] BUT IT'S NOT 100% AND YOU CAN'T JUDGE PEOPLE BY THIS ONLY" because many people are like "em, actually if you're not looking at so.eone, that means you're lying" and I'm here like "lol, sorry I can't keep eye contact well, apparently I'm a constant lier"

@Spamhard

2 жыл бұрын

For real. All that crap that's like "they're folding their leg away from the other person, which means they hate them" like bro, no, my other leg was dead so I changed legs, and now a body language expert is saying I'm psychopathic.

@dakunssd

2 жыл бұрын

Is there any actual science behind "body language reading"? Because sure, you get a bunch of "experts" attesting to its accuracy, but I never saw anyone support that with data. Body language is something pretty personal, and to be honest, people who overanalyse other's body language and try to use their own to influence/manipulate others come off the same way as people who try to use spoken language that way, that is, creepy.

@Spamhard

2 жыл бұрын

@@dakunssd My understanding of it is that it's entirely pseudo-science. While we are a social species who communicates quite heavily via body language, the concept that we all speak the same 'language' is absolutely stupid. Even if we took neurodiverse individuals out of the equation (which we obviously shouldn't), there's still countries, status, upbringing and a shit load of other factors. Most criminology, police forces, psycologists and the like have started steering away from that sort of profiling.

@2cat4life

2 жыл бұрын

you put the thing into words

"Likely partly as a result of the True Crime brain poisoning where the private lives of private individuals are fun mysteries to solve in real time" THANK YOU. Finally, somebody called out this weird murder fetish we've all just accepted as normal entertainment

@imsmolandangery4274

2 жыл бұрын

I think you'll like the episodes about true crime by the you're wrong about podcast

@mechanomics2649

2 жыл бұрын

I mean, it's been called out well before this video.

@crashtestdolphin5884

2 жыл бұрын

​@@mechanomics2649 Sarah Z. is the only media commentary channel I sub to, so it's news to me.

@T0xXx1k

2 жыл бұрын

@@imsmolandangery4274 "you're wrong about" is such a great podcast I love it. 🧡🦇 It's unrelated but if you interested in nerdy subjects/pop culture & enjoy having 2 new pffs(pod friends forever lmao) that a very loud & proud 🏳️‍🌈 check out "like a virgin" it's my 2nd favorite podcast after "you're wrong about" I can't recommend those 2 shows enough 🧡🦇

@ktownshutdown21

2 жыл бұрын

I despise the true crime genre for so many levels, this being the latest reason for me to hate it.

This video essay perfectly articulated what has been pushing me away from social media, and especially tiktok, for months. Bullying someone who you think "deserves it" is still bullying, and morally equating all people slightly south of neutral as monsters is damaging, because it not only trivializes the victims of actual atrocities, but also makes it totally unappealing for individuals who have made a mistake to learn from their actions and improve themselves, because they have witnessed huge swaths of the population demonize them in the past. This was awesome, Sarah. I audibly yelled "Yes!" several times while watching.

@raro344

2 жыл бұрын

It also hide the fact we are transforming punishment into a espectacle with all that invold.

@GarretRB

2 жыл бұрын

@@raro344 people used to watch public executions and participate in lynchings this isn't a new phenomenon.

@Homodemon

Жыл бұрын

@@raro344 it all becomes a matter of: If the whole world isn't on the punishment and harrasment then, will the wrong doer ever learn his lesson?

@chuuna3962

Жыл бұрын

To me it seems like people have a very shitty grasp on what punishment fits the crime in a personal situation. Say, you’re in a bar,and someone punches you in the face. You have every right to defend yourself and even punch them. What you don’t have the right to do is pull out a comically large sword and slash the person in half, or pull out a glock and shoot them in the kneecap,forever crippling them. The punishment should always fit the crime. Not even gonna start on the whole “being a bigger person” thing, because people who follow mobs like these will never comprehend the importance of sometimes stepping down no matter what the situation is.

You can tell from the way Sarah holds her cup, always in every video, drawing attention to it and pouring to make sure we know its tea is clearly a desperate bid to subliminally convince us that it is in fact tea. It's definitely not tea. As an empath I see her cry for help, something is definitely very wrong here.

@samyen3210

2 жыл бұрын

I agree shes obviously gaslighting us. How toxic 🙄

@cifge_404

2 жыл бұрын

@@samyen3210 no, I think it's something more. Someone is pulling the strings here, forcing her to make videos like this. I bet it's Homestuck; they already gave her a legal threat, so it's not exactly a stretch to think they used it to force her to continue to bow down to their control under the threat of being left penniless and hated by all.

@sorejack

Жыл бұрын

@@cifge_404 what do the clouds mean??? Did you see the halo? It matches the circle on her necklace! And Isn't the blinds arranged like a bar code? What does it all mean?

@luminousbanjo

Жыл бұрын

But how many episodes of Criminal Minds have you watched?

@InvaderGIR98

7 ай бұрын

​@@luminousbanjoAll of them, obviously. I've also watched Bones so I'm a qualified mortician

Couch Guy was such a horrifying thing to witness, personally. I'm an incredibly awkward dude who tends to have stiff body language in social settings, even moreso when I'm surprised or caught off-guard, and I'm terrified of the thought of having 18 seconds of that behavior recorded and uploaded online only for people to overanalyze my natural behavior as somehow suspicious. Like just because he wasn't excitedly jumping up a down like a toddler means he was a cheater. Maybe that's just... how he is, fellas. Ever consider that?

@freaki0734

2 жыл бұрын

Of all the things mentioned here it was the only thing I came across myself on social media and I was like "well maybe he is cheating but, that's literally how I might react especially with other people around". This being so incredibly dumb might be a reason it doesn't happen again or at least not very often. But I feel a bit naive in that hope.

@Dell-ol6hb

2 жыл бұрын

@@freaki0734 it will certainly happen again, couch guy was not the first time

@jadziajan

2 жыл бұрын

I don't even know why anyone brought up cheating (I mean I know... but also,) like, even if you decide to overanalyse the guy's body language, why not reach the conclusion that he's just "not very attached to his girlfriend"? (If you're choosing to read this 2 seconds clip negatively in the first place.) That does not have to mean cheating. At all. And that's not even mentioning the needless and weird slutshaming behaviour of claiming that women who sit next to your partner are "not your friends".

@SophieSquid

2 жыл бұрын

I honestly was just thinking, idk guys, how would *you* stand up after probably getting really comfortable on a couch after a long day of school work. idk bout anyone else but when I'm comfortable and sitting/laying down I don't want to get up for any reason and if I did it'd probably be tired or stiff or something honestly. he might have just not moved his body in a hot bit lmao

@schrodinger_punk

2 жыл бұрын

Couch Guy reminds me of my boyfriend so much tbh. He doesn't like surprises and if I had showed up out of the blue like that with somebody behind me recording his reaction he would've looked less than excited. Sometimes people don't like surprises, sometimes people don't like to be filmed, sometimes people are shy and awkward. And that's ok.

I'm so tired of seeing the term gaslighting used as a synonym of lying. Gaslighting is so much more destructive it makes you questions things and events you were so sure of, you question your own reality. So no, someone just denying something they did is not gaslighting, it's plane old lying

@MiloKuroshiro

2 жыл бұрын

Yep. In online circles gaslighting turned into "Lying about something" or "being rude/talking over someone". As someone who was gaslighted by years by someone who even faked a whole ass job and life plans while making me look crazy and paranoid when questioning to everyone and specially by me, that makes me so fucking mad.

@tempesttossed6029

2 жыл бұрын

Honestly. It's a prolonged story weaved to create mental and emotional abuse.

@yukiandkanamekuran

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah I was gaslit by someone in the past, it's not lying to someone, it's making someone feel like they're crazy. Those are different things, and at the same time, I wish people wouldn't immediately jump to gatekeep the word and instead describe it. Because gaslighting is a type of lying but not just lying by itself. Because for the people who are gaslit, are more likely to be confused than to know it's gaslighting, unless they have previous experience. To this day, the person who gaslit me, I didn't even know that they were lying to me until other people told me experiences with that person.

@Venya9

2 жыл бұрын

EXACTLY! It annoys me when gaslighting is used to describe lying. Someone dating many women at the same time, telling them they're the only one he is dating and confessing his love just to ghost them after a few dates is not gaslighting. It's being an asshole and lying. Gaslighting is a manipulation tactic and emotional abuse. I was gaslighted in a 3-year relationship and he made me question my reality. I also wish people would explain the difference more as someone who is genuinely gaslit might then realize it.

@ennisskalski719

2 жыл бұрын

I truly cannot understand how people feel justified using that way. I don't even feel confident calling something that only _mostly_ fits the definition because I'm not sure if the person asserting they didn't do X thing genuinely forgot about it. Or that the behaviour doesn't "count" as gaslighting because it's not actively malicious, even if the end result of having me question my own reality/memory is the same.

as someone who has been learning to manage my bpd and abandonment issues for years, the way people usually talk about ghosting is mind-boggling. yes recognizing your hurt is important but using that sort of catastrophic language is so dangerous. if i let myself get carried away like that i could accuse anyone, even a friend who forgot to reply for a couple of days because they had a hard week, of abusing me. it's extremely worrying how normalized it has become.

@Prederick

2 жыл бұрын

"Catastrophizing language" is a great way to put it. A thing cannot simply be "rude," "impolite," or even "dickish" anymore, it must be borderline, if not outright criminal. But, like.... a VAST berth of human behavior falls underneath he auspices of "rude" but is not "abuse" or criminal. The dude who cut me in line at the sandwich place today is a douche, he's not an abuser. And that's okay! I'm sure I've been a rude douche at some point and time, it's part of the glorious imperfections and contradictions of being human.

@nadalekene2446

Жыл бұрын

this is by far the most troubling aspect to me. seeing the way people talk about these issues and thinking "oh, that sounds just like the irrational thoughts that i'm fighting every day to avoid hurting myself or others." i agree with the above reply about "catastrophizing language" it sums things up perfectly.

@mckymcobvious3043

Жыл бұрын

@@nadalekene2446 I'm honestly really proud of both of you, i really _cannot_ handle tiktok, Twitter or tumblr, they all foster such a terrifyingly toxic culture, and _nobody ever_ takes a step back to look at the abusive harassment campaigns they're gleefully participating in to consider the lines they've kept crossing to bring it this far. it's clear that _way too many_ people just don't HAVE the commendable insights that the two of you have and are actively applying to help youselves and everyone around you. so yeah, I find that touching and for that I'm very proud

The commodification of therapeutic language is one of the most horrifying things that's happened in the last few years. Growing up, everyone would say "ugh, I hate my parents," and the like, so it took until I was an adult to realize that they didn't actually mean it, and that the real sentiment wasn't normal. That I Did have literal c-ptsd, they Were literal narcissists and abusers, that I Was literally gaslit, that hating them was warranted and that the appropriate response isn't a sympathetic laugh. If I had that problem with regular hyperbolic language, what's going to happen to those who will grow up with the terminology equated to high-school drama? Especially the neurodivergent like me, who have trouble differentiating between figurative and literal? I'm so, so afraid for the coming years of all the people going through abuse, having been robbed of the language to address it. Worse still, I'm afraid for those who won't make it until these terms fall out of fashion.

@elyca6329

Жыл бұрын

As a psychologist, I agree wholeheartedly

@rachael5025

Жыл бұрын

literally same

@sorejack

Жыл бұрын

It should be said, that gaslighting isn't just manipulation, it's the rewriting of a person's experience and memory, to the point of pushing a person to question their sanity. I am so sorry you went through that. I felt the need to clarify, because it is awful and it's current use in the lexicon of today waters it down.

@fifinoir

11 ай бұрын

@@sorejackAlso, doesn’t gaslighting have intent behind it? Like a person suffering from something like dementia or some other memory altering condition might actually think what they are saying is true and have conviction with it enough to convince the other person what actually happened, didn’t happen or other way around. But even in that way it isn’t gaslighting because the intent wasn’t to manipulate the other person. It was either confusion or defensiveness about the situation or memory loss.

@TenderNoodle

10 ай бұрын

Being robbed of the laungage to address trauma and mental illness is a brilliant way to put it. Normal people have co-opted serious, life ruining symptoms and conditions to make their problems look more legitimate or to make themselves look smarter and it is infuriating. It’s now nearly impossible to tell if someone has serious trauma and/or abuse, or if they just like using terms they heard on tiktok to describe normal unpleasant experiences.

"There's still this underlying notion that there exists a right person to hurt." This is such a good quote, like damn.

@kenpanderz672

2 жыл бұрын

true. it really seems like some people just really want a bag to punch but also wants to feel morally riotous for doing so. having their cake and eating it too.

@MCAndyT

2 жыл бұрын

+

@milhousevanhoutan9235

2 жыл бұрын

@@kenpanderz672 yeah, but....I mean they'll never come from stupid internet drama (only serious internet drama like Austin Jones or Lionmaker level, maybe) sometimes there are people you MUST hurt. Which leads to a question, if you must, what's the moral baggage associated with that? (I've been thinking a lot about Ukraine- specifically their now hardened and armed civilians and how they probably don't want to hurt anyone but they must.... just weird shower thoughts don't mind me.)

@iankellymorris

2 жыл бұрын

@@milhousevanhoutan9235 How would you determine who MUST be hurt though? Nobody's all-knowing. Even if you were all-knowing, how would you make the moral judgement of where in the vast ethical gradation of human actions to draw the line. There's a certain practical necessity in self-defense, and that extends somewhat to defending others, but that's also not really about hurting them. It's more about neutralizing a threat. Mitigating harm.

@raro344

2 жыл бұрын

@@milhousevanhoutan9235 As Morris said, Ukraine isnt trying to hurt Rusia, but stop them from doing more.

Just wanna say as someone diagnosed with autism thank you for mentioning neurodivergency and not everyone fits into the stereotypes of what counts as 'manipulative' body language -- I literally had a dream once that I was being interviewed on TV and everyone thought I was lying cause I was so stiff and awkward talking to someone new haha

@damien678

2 жыл бұрын

wait people think your body language can be inherently manipulative??? oh, oh no

@Homodemon

2 жыл бұрын

I swear, people judging me for my awkward body language is a recurring nightmare of mine. But I always told myself that was just my anxiety speaking, that people don't actually care... Welp. Shit.

@cjboyo

2 жыл бұрын

Almost every single “spot a narcissist” video is just describing autism traits

@toriestrella

2 жыл бұрын

@@damien678 yes. Nobody has any idea what a red flag actually is these days, it seems.

@Homodemon

2 жыл бұрын

@@cjboyo ironically, ain't it a narcissist trait to project horrible mental afflictions onto other people to make themselves seem reasonable in comparison. "Everyone else is the problem, but not me."

Honestly what was wild to me is that I've been ghosted like this several times over the past few years. It's just...normal? Like mildly dickish behavior but accepted in modern dating culture lmao

@lyanacat1943

2 жыл бұрын

It was accepted before as well; I do feel like having an expectation of immediate contact has intensified the reaction people have to it. It's not "Oh well, shit happens, his loss, hope nothing awful happened." It's "How dare you string me along and then ignore me, I know you saw my message"

@killerkitten7534

2 жыл бұрын

A lot of times it’s not even a malicious thing. Sometimes people just get overwhelmed and scared when they think about their future with a person, and get too anxious to continue talking.

@mind_onion

2 жыл бұрын

This is the first I'm hearing of this and it terrifies me. I didn't realize people think that, you know, being too exhausted to respond to someone saying something to you on a message app and then forgetting about them because we've interacted like only a few weeks ever and I've got other shit to do, meant you were deserving of this kind of response. It's like, wtf, my experience on these apps as a guy is I'm pretty much completely ignored by default, even if I matched (which is rare enough on its own) and I send some kind of greeting It's like 1/100 I get any response at all (and maybe 50/50 on it just being a scambot trying to advertise or steal money from me somehow). A tiny fraction of that results in a date. It really feels like the app wants it all to become a pure numbers game. But like apparently if I ignore one of these messages I'm a monster? What the hell? I stopped dating attempts entirely during COVID cause I didn't want to spread the virus and this video is making me wonder if I should just give up entirely, it seems really dangerous if a social misstep gets the rumor mill going and you can just get crucified like this.

@oulafursson

2 жыл бұрын

@@mind_onion I honestly don't think you should stop. Chances of something like that happening are very, very small -- plus, the guy didn't stop responding to one girl, but to a really, really big amount of them - which caused that crazy avalanche in the first place. You shouldn't bury your dating life because of that!

@mind_onion

2 жыл бұрын

@@oulafursson Well, I definitely appreciate your encouragement. Thanks.

"true crime brain poisoning online" YES YES YES! Missing persons and crimes and murders aren't your fun little mystery to solve online with your buds, they're real life people with real pain that don't deserve to have every aspect of their lives dissected in a public venue. True crime can be really interesting to talk about but I only support true crime that talks about older cases that don't impact people currently (like Buzzfeed unsolved true crime) or things that actually interview and talk to the people involved in a respectful way (like the Dr Death podcast). people really, really need to examine the consequences of their online behavior. this isn't just a game, it's real life.

@Randompersonnumber3

2 жыл бұрын

Yes! I love true crime but the latest story sweeping the news isn't some Hunt-a-killer game where you can solve it! Hell, for Gabby Petito's boyfriend people were CONVINCED he was hiding in a bunker in his parent's backyard because... they bent down near it? It was so ridiculous!

@pandakatiefominz

Жыл бұрын

There are some true crime podcasts where I think it's valid to do recent cases, though. Some Place Under Neith is one that focuses exclusively on missing women, and most of their cases are recent, but it's not to exploit and sensationalize stories, it's because mostly they tell stories of missing women and girls who otherwise wouldn't get wide media attention (women of colour, indigenous women, impovrished women/girls, trans women, sex workers, etc.,) and making these names public and keeping these stories told can help in these women being located.

The idea of everyone condemning Caleb as some sort of activist effort like he’s the first person to ever use a dating app for validation is ludicrous

@draculactica

2 жыл бұрын

i agree, Guy Fieri

@damien678

2 жыл бұрын

@Kay E quick question, did you actually watch the video? or is this comment a joke?

@tempesttossed6029

2 жыл бұрын

@Kay E do so in your private life with people you meet in person. Do not gang up on random strangers. That solves nothing and is only a means of feeling control in a senseless world. Seek therapy, you likely have unresolved trauma.

@Homodemon

2 жыл бұрын

@@damien678 is a contrarian troll, they are just shitting it up on all the replies.

@goblin6587

2 жыл бұрын

@@tempesttossed6029 you're gaslighting

I really hate this trend of using feminist rhetoric to mask what are basically bullying and harassment campaigns. I feel like they do it because they know bullying is bad. So in order to continue to do it publicly they use feminism as an excuse. Please we have more important things to worry about than this one dude who ghosted you on a dating app.

@hillary96renteria82

2 жыл бұрын

Exactly. They use feminism as a shield for their opinions, because if you dare to disagree or point out the issues with their line of thinking their counter argument is "you just hate women" which doesn’t even make sense but it gives them an excuse not to actually respond to you criticism.

@user-es7ui5mc1m

2 жыл бұрын

i absolutely despise this whole brand of fake woke passive-aggressive "activism" because they'll literally cyber-bully someone and still think they're the bigger person because they pointed out the "problematic" thing and 'the person deserved it anyway'. Like they'll harrass someone and think *they're* the ones doing good???

@scr9069

2 жыл бұрын

While I agree that many people are just using feminism as an excuse for bullying and feel a sense of power/justice from hurting an "acceptable" target, I would be careful about painting literally everyone who does that with the same brush. Just from the example comments in OP's video, I suspect many of the people participating in these campaigns were genuinely hurt by guys like West Elm Caleb, and really believe they're doing something good by "holding him accountable". I do think what happened to him is way overboard, but I honestly don't have that much sympathy for the guy either-- he's neither an uncommon asshole nor the worst sort out there, but he's still an asshole, and I'd rather save my sympathy for people who deserve it more. I actually have more pity for those people with legitimate grievances, because they think they're accomplishing something meaningful by scapegoating this one guy. In reality, this will change absolutely nothing, because people like that don't ever think their actions will have actual consequences-- and for the most part, they're right. West Elm Caleb was a fluke, pure and simple. This is the same logic that has people thinking punishment actually deters crime, when criminals are already the kind of people who never count on getting caught. As for the rest (...) yeah, it's incredibly frustrating. They're mindlessly indulging in some of the worst impulses humanity has to offer, yet they're somehow under the pretention that makes them good people just because they get their kicks from victimizing "acceptable targets". Is it sometimes necessary to organize mass harassment campaigns against people in power to effect real change? Regrettably yes. Is it ever justifiable to participate in a hate mob against an ordinary person who has zero actual power? Hell no.

@hillary96renteria82

2 жыл бұрын

@@scr9069 genuinely believing you’re doing something good is different from actually doing something good. I doubt think the original comment was trying to imply that these people were consciously using feminism with malicious intent, but whether malicious or not the result was the same and it is important to criticize it that. Acknowledging the injustice that was done to Caleb does not mean being “anti-feminist” or “hating women” and it is incredibly important to point out this flawed way of thinking even if the person who thinks this way meant no ill will and was not consciously using feminism as a shield. Caleb is not a nice guy but having his full name, private information, and personal address leaked is NOT okay and I personally find this worth sympathizing considering the fact that his only real flaw was not texting back after a date or two

@scr9069

2 жыл бұрын

@@hillary96renteria82 You seem to be replying to me, but I'm not sure what about my comment you're replying to? Your first line is a good chunk of my second paragraph reduced to a snappy quip (not to be bitter or anything, lol), and I didn't say anything about whether those people were consciously using feminism with malicious intent or about how important it is to point out this kind of thing. I am, in fact, personally inclined to think that the vast majority of people don't consciously recognize when they're acting in bad faith. For the record, I disagree on the first point-- the comment implies that those doing the bullying know what they're doing is bad but use feminism as an excuse to do it anyway, which is intentionally malicious-- and agree wholly with the second. I commented because I felt it was worth it to point out that there are other potential reasons to act that way than being a bad faith feminist to bully people, not because I wanted to silence that critique, and I am again confused by your apparent impression that I felt otherwise. In any case, I think you're downplaying his flaws (he did worse things than just not texting back, even if he doesn't seem to be an actual abuser), but I agree that it isn't okay that Caleb was doxxed. Nor was it okay for people to try to get him fired or harass him in real life, and it especially wasn't okay for big companies to get in on the whole thing with an eye on profit. I don't have to sympathize with him to know that what happened to him was wrong, because no person nor group of people should be able to do that to an ordinary person with zero oversight. He's still an asshole, though, and it doesn't matter to me that he's not a particularly special kind of asshole. You're free to be sympathetic toward him as a person-- I can understand that feeling-- but I'm not personally going to waste pity on an asshole who played with people's hearts just because something bad happened to him.

Couch guy is my worst nightmare realized: trying my hardest to live my life without thinking if others are talking about me behind my back, and having hundreds of people judging my character from the very little they know about me. And my nightmare was about bumping into someone without apoligizing, not giving another person my seat fast enough or getting into a fight where it looks like I'm the worst person ever because I got a little heated for standing my ground. This dude was sent to the gallows for nothing, NOTHING and he wasn't even using the internet, it was someone else who uploaded his clip, so my worst nightmare became even worse.

The ironic thing about spreading the word about how “horrible” of a dude Caleb was to these women is that he became so famous that even IF he changed, his reputation was so utterly destroyed no one would probably give him a chance to prove he’s changed. And even if they did, the minute he’d slip up or genuinely fucked up, he’d be put on blast and the whole cycle would start over again. It’s kind of like the phrase “poisoning the well” but there’s probably a better term for it that I can’t think of atm

It's infuriating that as soon as I heard you speak about the trans woman I thought "oh, she's gonna be seen as either a sex offender or a murderer, possibly both" and I was completely right. I hope she is alright and was able to overcome this horrible experience.

@margaretgibbs6673

2 жыл бұрын

I can't even imagine. Because it just. Never stops as long as you're online because now your trauma is turned into a meme people will ignorantly pass around forever whether they even know the source or not. This poor woman...if I was her I'd seriously delete everything and stay offline at least under my own name. Certainly I'd never go back to TikTok. If she stayed she's a lot tougher than I'd be. And I'd dearly love to see these ppl try to justify themselves in a few years if they grow out of this and realize 😱😯 "omg...I did a BAD thing uwu!"

@AyuRPG

2 жыл бұрын

I’m a trans woman early in transition myself. If that happened to me, it honestly might have bullied me back into the closet again. I looked her up, she seems to be fairly active on tiktok and making dancing videos still, which means she certainly is a stronger person than I am. I just hope I live to see the day where people will stop invoking Buffalo Bill whenever they see a trans woman that doesn’t meet cissexist beauty standards behaving in a manner they deem socially unacceptable.

@Haverlock

2 жыл бұрын

my mind after registering "Trans woman dancing in a dirty basement" immediately went "Oh no"

@UnreasonableOpinions

2 жыл бұрын

Every video that mentions a trans person in a social media controversy I just start a countdown to when the blatant contempt for trans existence kicks in. Pretty damned rare it doesn't.

@TheFeelingOfC

2 жыл бұрын

The one tik tok of someone questioning why she had security cameras was so weird like how on earth are you going to question why someone has security cameras in their home??? I just don’t see how someone can see someone dancing in a rundown place (that if a cis person did would probably be considered cool and edgy) and immediately assume they’re a murderer, there isn’t a shred of logic in that!! The woman was just fucking dancing

It's scary how people can just see others as "characters" and not people with real lives and that mobs can have consequences.

@Eyecyou64

2 жыл бұрын

Internet:(

@larsnyman2455

2 жыл бұрын

I see that happening with Zelenskyy, it’s frustrating

@mhawang8204

2 жыл бұрын

I think the medium (internet/social media) plays a big part in this. It's personally removed enough that people can be judgemental behind a screen safely for entertainment.

The pathologist has language is extremely concerning to me. Some background: My spouse is autistic. He’s not subtle with affection. He comes home from work and his reaction to seeing me is “MAR!! *glomp* I LOVE YOU!!!” One time I vented to friends in a private discord chat about him buying a video game without my knowledge (I was frustrated because I was going to buy him that game and didn’t know what to get him for his birthday now). I realized I was a little harsh/dramatic so I deleted the rant. Within five minutes I get the following message “OMG Mar are you safe?! Is *spouse* financially abusing you? I’ve seen how he lovebombs you he’s so toxic! Did he force you to delete your message? Do you need help getting out?!?!” I respond, “No, I am safe. I deleted the message because I realized I blew things out of proportion. Thank you for your concern though. It’s great that you care about your friends :)” Friend goes, “DONT LET HIM GASLIGHT YOU. You deserve better! He’s abusive. I can call someone who can get you everything you need to get away from him!” She meant well and I managed to talk her down but damn.

@nuclearbiologist

2 жыл бұрын

Jeez

@Lucky_Dagger

2 жыл бұрын

As someone who is autistic i really appreciate your understanding. Sometimes even friendships can be weird because friends might be weirded out by my insistence to pay for their movie ticket because i enjoy hanging out with them. I only have a few friends who i still do this with now because they have stuck around so long.

@rosenberg2497

2 жыл бұрын

Completely off topic, but I love the use of “glomp”

@coco604

Жыл бұрын

Oof, that sounds so uncomfortable, especially with a friend.

@Aaron-kj8dv

Жыл бұрын

Lmao RIP to any guy that dates her. He's gonna get bombarded with false accusations.

34:01 "there is still this underlying notion that there exists a right person to hurt, and that by harming that kind of person, we are making the world a better place" that one hit different

"Can't I just be an asshole without being pathologized, please?" Is not a question I'd ever thought to ask, but when I put myself in the position of one of these people getting socially crucified for being a just being kind of a shitbag, it was the first thing that came to mind.

@doctordragon9798

2 жыл бұрын

On the flip side, as a mentally ill person "Can't someone just be an asshole without being ill, or is your definition of mentally ill synonomous with 'asshole its ok to hurt'?"

@MiotaLee

2 жыл бұрын

Sometimes you have shit takes all until someone challenges them. There is no room for growth on the internet because once you have an opinion that's all people will know you for. You can change your mind, but you can't change the crowds perception about you. at least not easily.

It’s just so weird that huge corporations are getting involved in these situations lol. Same with “Couch Guy”. It shouldn’t be normal for people basically being put on blast like this.

@julidagar

2 жыл бұрын

The fact that couch guy's girlfriend was relentlessly teased and bullied by the internet under the guise of "looking out for her", and then when she did the bare minimum to capitalise on all the unwanted attention she was accused on milking it for money..... like this poor girl couldnt win

@smagdarine

2 жыл бұрын

@@julidagar so the girlfriend goes to my university and our majors are similar enough that we've had some similar classes - last semester the person sitting next to me leaned over and pointed to some person in this large lecture hall and was like "you know couch guy? that's his girlfriend" i was horrified! like what the fuck!

@eevee2Glacia

2 жыл бұрын

@@smagdarine THAT'S SO WEIRD and also literally middle school bullying... The way that these types of situations can get grown ass adults to act that way is... Weird.

@jonjon4634

2 жыл бұрын

@@eevee2Glacia The internet has and will always reward immaturity.

@eevee2Glacia

2 жыл бұрын

@@jonjon4634 True!

I always used to wonder how women were condemned as witches and no one questioned it, but these scenarios have painted a clear picture. They choose a target, find a way to justify it, and "burn" them. Albeit more humane, it is very clear to see this was the same process that once killed women or other prisoners.

rewatching this and the air of "i support trans women, i'm just about to accuse one of you of being a serial killer based on literally nothing" from some of the sabrina prater videos is the most tiktok shit i've ever seen

the fact that that one girl said she watches criminal minds so she thinks she knows about body language and psychology…. this scares me bc criminal minds has so much misinformation about psychology (especially neurodivergent people and mental illness) and it baffles me people use it to make real world observations. also the way the guy was asking a psychologist and she pops up like “HI IM NOT A PSYCHOLOGIST BUUUUUT” lmao

@Starburst514

2 жыл бұрын

G O D. Y E S. criminal minds is so hollywoodized about how that branch of the FBI actually works, I grew out of it when I was 14. Seeing people talk about it like it's valuable information infuriates me so much.

@Danielledaydreamer

2 жыл бұрын

I love Criminal Minds, but I realize that it is a *fictional* TV show! It’s primary purpose is to be entertaining, not to function as a psychology textbook. Watching CM doesn’t make me a psychologist anymore than watching Grey’s Anatomy makes me a doctor.

@dylankennedy4539

2 жыл бұрын

So youre saying I shouldnt have cited Criminal Minds on my research paper?

@christianwise637

2 жыл бұрын

@@Danielledaydreamer There's a reason why, when you're a kid, your parents, teachers, or even the creators of the TV shows themselves, tell you not to imitate the characters you see on TV: THEY'RE NOT REAL. It's honestly troubling to think that so many people never really learned that lesson and insist on using their favourite media as a lens to view reality through (see also the Harry Potter fanbase)

Feels a bit odd to say "Disclaimer: this is nothing against her" right before calling someone a serial killer

@SpoopySquid

2 жыл бұрын

"For legal reasons, this is a joke"

@BrickBuster2552

2 жыл бұрын

It's like the people who claim "fair use" when uploading an entire episode of Death Note to KZread.

@ADevilFromHeaven

2 жыл бұрын

@@BrickBuster2552 i was thinking so much about death note while watching this

@timothymclean

2 жыл бұрын

@@ADevilFromHeaven Not surprising. The West Elm Caleb bashers are essentially advocating for a world where everyone has a Death Note, except that someone only dies if enough people write their name in their Death Notes. And I guess they haven't _literally_ called for the murder of any Twitter Protagonist of the Day...yet. Actually, that sounds like a fun premise for a speculative fiction story. Black comedy, but still comedic.

It's funny how every single time a body language expert comments, it ALWAYS confirms the views they had prior to the analysis.

Most liberating thing I have learned on the internet: You never HAVE to engage with a piece of content. I have several times found myself typing an enraged comment or reply, paused, reflected on why I wanted to make that comment, and then deleted it. I have never once regretted NOT making a comment.

As someone with a Master’s in forensic psychology, seeing that girl claim that her criminal minds knowledge was enough to make my soul leave my body and complain to my roommate in the program. Also, we don’t even like profiling and don’t believe in analyzing body language unless it’s to help get a mental health diagnosis! WTF??!

@salthesteamengine

2 жыл бұрын

I agree, it’s insulting to the people that put real life work into getting educated. It’s like saying I’m a biologist because I watch nature documentaries🙄

@ebb6077

2 жыл бұрын

I’m currently doing a forensic science class in high school rn and just noticed body language isn’t mentioned/brought up lol.

I go to the same school as couch guy. People were hanging up polls asking whether he was cheating in the elevator of my apartment & I heard people hung it up in his apartment complex too. Almost all of the votes said he was a bad person or cheating. Everyone at this university was talking about him and condemning him out in the open as casual conversation. It was absurd to watch everyone in your general vicinity, on the whole, think you’ve done something you very well may not have (and most likely didn’t).

@SarahZ

2 жыл бұрын

Holy shit. This poor dude

@margaretgibbs6673

2 жыл бұрын

I hope couch dude is okay eventually. Giving humanity the internet was a mistake, we suck enough on our own without being given this much power.

@smagdarine

2 жыл бұрын

i go to the same school as the girlfriend, and we had a class in common last semester. i didn't know until the person sitting next to me, a stranger, pointed to her in a several hundred person lecture hall and said "that's couch guy's girlfriend" it's fucking crazy

@miseryfell6417

2 жыл бұрын

@@smagdarine This whole "Couch Guy" thing is making me feel like I'm the sanest person in the world. I don't understand how people got "he's having sex with other people" from a SINGULAR TIKTOK. Like I'm just trying so hard to figure out the thought process of these people. Any shred of rationality just went out the window with these people and it's terrifying how hardcore they went in on the guy. Imagine being demonized or someone you know demonized for a clip of hugging.

@cathylatte741

2 жыл бұрын

@@miseryfell6417 It's honestly baffling how much people latched onto a single brief clip and came down on him with absolute condemnation...like jeez my own high school friend group had a mix of guys and girls and we were all friendly and close with each other, even if some of us had significant others. We'd sit squished on top of each other, drape over each other, play on each other's phones, etc, because that was 'normal' for us. We never know what's going on in someone else's life or what their definition of 'normal' is, yet so many people just plaster their idea of 'normal' overtop of everything else and act with absolute certainty on it, jumping to awful conclusions. I felt so bad for the guy and the girl involved..

i despise finding out that tumblr call-out culture was a mere appetizer :/

Another factor that actively hinders efforts to put the brakes on this kind of mobbing is the incentive to position oneself as morally pure, manifested in this case as a rejection of any suggestion that the subject has had enough, or dismissal of any attempts by the subject to apologize or speak for themselves. Even as some people voice doubts about whether this has gone too far, there's always the incentive to show just how committed to the cause you are by contrast, and all you have to do is say "no mercy."

@DarthRayj

Жыл бұрын

Yup. When really, I want all the mercy. I want to be merciful to others and have them be merciful to me. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, in fact I think that's a much better world than one with no mercy.

@irresponsibledad

Жыл бұрын

I wonder if the mob becomes more extreme as individuals act in more and more extreme ways, so as to stand out as being exceptionally "pure"

As an actual psychologist (yes, really), we are constantly reminded that one action can have a bunch of interpretations, which is why we never diagnose anyone based on a single tool or interaction, and we must always rule out other reasons for a behavior (e.g., maybe someone is avoiding eye contact because they have bad vision and not due to stress or anxiety). Seeing people straight up diagnose STRANGERS over minuscule observations without context or any training is just ridiculous.

@horricule451

2 жыл бұрын

As an autistic person I especially despise the attitude of "they're not making eye contact so they must be lying and untrustworthy" like damn that's jumping to conclusions so quickly it deserves a medal for gymnastics

@notproblempal8343

2 жыл бұрын

Wait. Psychologists are real?

@horricule451

2 жыл бұрын

@@notproblempal8343 they're not. They're a myth that was invented to give Freud's ideas more credibility

@yserareborn

2 жыл бұрын

No! You don’t understand! I’VE watched Criminal Minds!

@Ellaliluleloka

2 жыл бұрын

@@horricule451 SHHH

As someone with social anxiety this is absolutely terrifying to me. Seeing how people can have their life destroyed by doing nothing really wrong or all that terrible reinforces to me that it would be better to never leave the house or get into any kind of relationship. All this just feeds my anxiety.

@ShiftySetax

2 жыл бұрын

Couldn't put it better. No one wants to step up on stage when the last guy got guillotined.

@AerynKDesigns

2 жыл бұрын

same. same. same. just reinforces my belief that it's better to stay quiet and alone than trying to interact and being blindsided with something like this. because even the more socially adept have it happen, what chance does someone completely unprepared for interaction have?

@Trollestiatumblur

2 жыл бұрын

As someone who is autistic adhd, this explains why so many people think certain things about me. Everyone thinks I’m suspicious and hiding something, I didn’t know it was because I couldn’t make eye contact and my fidgeting is perceived as “being anxious.” It’s absolutely laughable

@rafaelgarciapadilla7324

2 жыл бұрын

Reminds me of being bullied on elementary school for being “”weird””… literally triggering

@Nadia1989

2 жыл бұрын

Yes. Someone could make a video on tik tok claiming that I returned a tape to Blockbuster in 1996 without rewinding it and it could escalate to the point of getting messages at work accusing me of crimes against humanity without knowing what Blockbuster was. (Even though I didn't have a VCR until 1999!)

Speaking as someone who is neurodivergent, everything to do with the "a mob of random people on the internet will meticulously study your body language and determine who you are based on that" is FUCKING HORRIFYING. Just nightmare world bullshit all around

The discussion of the panopticon really resonated for me, and the fear of public shaming has affected me personally and professionally even though I specifically have never been publicly shamed. It's caused me to avoid expressing my opinion except pseudo-anonymously or in a context where I don't face digital repercussions for being wrong or for my transgressions.

@hope8011

2 жыл бұрын

i know this comment is two months old, but i genuinely feel the same way. the idea that at any moment i could be dragged for a different opinion, my personal appearance, or even just someone saying i did something bad 4+ years ago has caused me to be a digital hermit. my only forms of social media are fb (to talk to my family), youtube, and reddit (both of which are kept so i do not give out any information regarding personal info). even in my personal life with my friends, i keep any differing opinions or even things i find them doing that are negative to myself, as they all share the same mob mentality which is shared in this video . in some ways i feel better than i have in the past, where my instagram felt more like a numbers game, however being in an age where social media is king, i have felt quite isolated from my peers when they speak on a new artist, or trend. just last week, someone asked for my socials and when i said i didn’t have any, they asked “what do you do all day?”

A huge problem is that when people on the internet gang up on someone who’s later proven to be innocent or misrepresented they think the lesson was that they ganged up on the wrong person, not that they didn’t have enough information and shouldn’t have mobbed someone at all. It’s a laughable cycle. Someone directs a personal complaint against another, the internet vilifies that person completely, new facts come to light and humanizes said person, internet switches targets to the original person who complained.

@WisteriaWaves

2 жыл бұрын

Ikr, people want to be an expert in all these fields but don’t care for actual facts. Only the ones that fit their agendas and the point they get across. I see this when people write neurodivergent people especially. “No, they cannot be emotionless, they can have a lack of displaying those emotions, but they are still going on underneath.” “But I want her to be emotionless, she is emotionless.” Is just an example.

@rexonatyleer3500

2 жыл бұрын

yup. its just mob mentality.

@thanatoast

2 жыл бұрын

Clearly, the way to fix the problems in society isn't to change the systems that allowed the problems in the first place. No, instead we should just find all the racists/sexists/homophobes/what have you that are living among us, waiting for their "mask off" moment and banish them to racist island forever, while we live in utopia.

@kenetickups6146

2 жыл бұрын

@@thanatoast Or we could fix the problems and kill all thr racists

@chris_troiano

2 жыл бұрын

The first time I remember seeing this was after the Sandy Hook shooting when early reports had had the wrong name for the shooter and named his brother instead. This poor man, whose mother was just murdered by his own brother in a horrifying mass shooting/suicide, was also being targeted on social media as though he was the guilty one.

I saw Sarah Z at a grocery store in Los Angeles yesterday. I told her how cool it was to meet her in person, but I didn’t want to be a douche and bother her and ask her for photos or anything. She said, “Oh, like you’re doing now?” I was taken aback, and all I could say was “Huh?” but she kept cutting me off and going “huh? huh? huh?” and closing her hand shut in front of my face. I walked away and continued with my shopping, and I heard her chuckle as I walked off. When I came to pay for my stuff up front I saw her trying to walk out the doors with like fifteen Milky Ways in her hands without paying. The girl at the counter was very nice about it and professional, and was like “Ma’am, you need to pay for those first.” At first she kept pretending to be tired and not hear her, but eventually turned back around and brought them to the counter. When she took one of the bars and started scanning it multiple times, she stopped her and told her to scan them each individually “to prevent any electrical infetterence,” and then turned around and winked at me. I don’t even think that’s a word. After she scanned each bar and put them in a bag and started to say the price, she kept interrupting her by yawning really loudly.

@cloverplayssnakegame

2 жыл бұрын

This is true I was the cashier

@leand682

2 жыл бұрын

The Flying Sarah Copypaste

@mj2208

2 жыл бұрын

its true I was one of the Milky Way bars

@Devedrus

2 жыл бұрын

It's true I was the electrical infetterence

@awitngibon

2 жыл бұрын

its true i was the price scanner

This is happening in real time with the Depp v Heard case. It’s terrifying.

@ChrisStoneinator

Жыл бұрын

Shit dude, it happened with Michael Jackson multiple times (although the vultures in the media and at Sony had as much to do with it as mob mentality). Shit's scary.

phenomenal video and essay. I've been trying to talk to people about the retributive justice angle, esp during the early pandemic, so was really happy to see that brought up.

@kozhedub

2 жыл бұрын

Hey it's my favorite Star Wars (and other stuff) channel

@user-xd6ee2zz4m

2 жыл бұрын

This is one hell of a crossover

@HotCoco_

Жыл бұрын

What in the fuck...Justin?! You're here??

@Jay-fs2nw

Жыл бұрын

Dude I just came back from watching some of your videos and saw you post, was not expecting it

@lolcowexterminationservices

Жыл бұрын

What the crossover fuck?

When I saw the title I had genuinely no idea what it meant and if this was a random channel I would assume this would either be something I wasn't interested in at all or some cryptic bs that I wouldn't be able to understand. But Sarah has earned enough of my trust through her poignant analysis that I decided to watch this anyways because I figured I was going to learn something interesting, and I was not disappointed.

@DOMDOTCOM518

2 жыл бұрын

It’s only been out for like 20 minutes and it’s an hour long video 😐 how did you watch it already

@tehawsumninja

2 жыл бұрын

Same!

@i.lostblur

2 жыл бұрын

@@DOMDOTCOM518 Playback speed. click on the little gear on the lower right corner of the video. i watch most of these on at least 1.5 and it really saves a lot of time through dragged out moments. also, some of the example videos here are somewhat redundant so i just skipped through them.

@damien678

2 жыл бұрын

for many, it's just their latest excuse to bully and harass others

@yurisei6732

2 жыл бұрын

This is every single video for me. I never know anything about the subject, and without fail, I come out having learned something, with the video being a highlight of the week.

It frustrates me so fucking much how the meaning behind “gaslight” has been eroded. It’s a genuinely important term for talking about and identifying abuse, but when it just means lying it breaks the ability to help identify abusers

@justas423

2 жыл бұрын

The internet waters down a lot of phrases, even just harmless jokes get watered down by endless repetition.

@AshB78

2 жыл бұрын

'lovebomb,' too. It's a tactic cults use to get you to replace all of your social circle with cult members so they can isolate you, not something fucking Jeremy, who you've gone on like, two dates with, is doing by texting you a lot.

@turner15

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah as someone whose been abused this is very irritating.

@TransSappho

2 жыл бұрын

@@turner15 yeah my partner’s ex was abusive and gaslit them in the literal sense of the word and it’s honestly made it harder for them to identify what he did as wrong because the term has been neutered so much

I think the way you connected cancelling individuals and the rise in true crime fans was really insightful, there’s something about the consumption of the punishment and suffering of other people, and the desire to personally be the executioner of justice

Also okay the girl being like “as your older sister” is instantly throwing me off. Fandom mom energy.

"I don't have a psychology degree but I watch a lot of Criminal Minds" melted my brain. Excellent video as usual, Sarah.

@LisaBeergutHolst

2 жыл бұрын

I lol'ed

@cassiebeal9646

2 жыл бұрын

I honestly thought the girl was making some kind of satire, then I realized she was serious...

@zinaak4194

2 жыл бұрын

@@cassiebeal9646 same 😭

@thalesanastacio760

2 жыл бұрын

This is the type of shit i use to say as a joke. To seen it been said unironically is GREAT

@JacklynBurn

2 жыл бұрын

Damn near had to physically resist the urge to vomit, seen that kind of person too often in my life and it never goes well.

the fact that brands can join in public humiliation now is really weird

God... I cannot even begin to explain how heart-poundingly anxious it makes me, as an autistic person, to think about things like body language analysis. Thank you for bringing that angle up. So many people claim to support neurodivergent folks, but then turn around and start ascribing intent onto total strangers who really may just have an odd social presentation. As if that isn’t EXACTLY a major form of ableism towards said groups (and particularly Autism/ADHD). I am so scared of being randomly recorded or falling into the public eye, even for more positive reasons, because of stuff like this. This culture of armchair psychoanalysis & telephone gossip is seriously vile. And if this a result of true crime... just... how? I know certain true crime media is very... spectacle/entertainment oriented, and I don’t approve of that in general. But I occasionally listen to true crime content myself, and I’M able to understand that it is akin to a historical documentation and NOT a fictional thriller. There is a difference between the two, and it is a VERY important line to draw.

@disliked1390

7 ай бұрын

Body Language analysis is a fake science, people claiming to be experts are bulls***ing you, it's like mediums, and snake oil sales people. None of them actually know what they are talking about. Time to stop giving them attention 100%

@idonotresidehere.5709

7 ай бұрын

same, ive always been super conciuous of my body language bc i dont express myself "normally" and im always scared of ppl judging me based on misinterpretations of things like my facial expression, so this shit is terrifying to me. masking is exhausting but clearly its often neccessary.

this whole thing really shows how people are getting narcissistic to an alarming rate. "He ghosted me? ME?, I'm the one who ghosts, I am the main character" "time to destroy his life"

The misappropiation of love bombing... dear god Love bombing is when an abuser, after a particularly big blowout, or just when they notice their victim is considering leaving the relafionship, starts being REALLY romantic for a while. Flowers, presents, dates, they're really attentive and romantic and *seem* apologetic about their past behavioir. The thing about love bombing is that it's not genuine and always tempprary. They're not actually trying to do better, they just want to keep the victim in the relationship. Eventually they'll go back to their old behaviour and the cycle starts anew. It is NOT a guy you met on a dating app being overly familiar before you've even met. That's weird, and a possible red flag. But it's not love bombing. When we muddy these terms we make it even harder for abuse victims to realize and express what is happening to them.

@howdypardner6278

2 жыл бұрын

It's like how people say "gaslighting" aka just lying or being rude. You can't gaslight or lovebomb someone you don't already have a very close personal relationship with

@BrokenHedgehog

2 жыл бұрын

Sort of like how people with PTSD can't use the word "triggered" any more without getting an eye roll in response because a bunch of oversensitive dipshits on the internet misused the word to the point an actual psychological term needed to convey how serious the aftermath of someone's trauma is to others got turned into a punchline for edgy, wannabe-internet comedians.

@julesmallow

2 жыл бұрын

Lovebombing is also a part of narcissistic abuse. I experienced it as my partner expressing he loved me and wanted to marry me after 2 weeks of knowing each other, buying me extravagant and unwanted gifts, and then suddenly becoming a different person and wanting to leave me several months into the relationship. (He was definitely a narcissist, told me multiple times how he thought everyone else besides me was beneath him). While I agree West elm Caleb wasn't lovebombing, your definition isn't exactly correct either. It can start without abuse, at the very beginning of a relationship to lure someone in.

@goblin6587

2 жыл бұрын

@@howdypardner6278 you can gaslight someone you don't have a close personal relationship with

@guardianeris

2 жыл бұрын

@@goblin6587 ... no, you can't, because gaslighting is a technique of RELATIONSHIP ABUSE, which requires one to have a relationship. Stop cheapening serious words

ghosting is a rude thing to do. it is not abuse.

@lyanacat1943

2 жыл бұрын

I honestly don't even think it's rude. Jarring yeah. But shit happens, people fall away. I wonder if the expectation of immediate connection that we have these days is part of it. Because it just didn't get the same kind of reaction before the smart phone.

@mechanomics2649

2 жыл бұрын

@@lyanacat1943 It's rude in the way that just walking away from a conversation in the middle of it is.

@lyanacat1943

2 жыл бұрын

@@mechanomics2649 See that's exactly what I mean; texting to me is still akin to writing a letter. Talking on the phone or talking face to face is different. Not saying it's not hurtful, just that society has definitely shifted.

@unit0007

2 жыл бұрын

Trying to look at this thing as objectively as I possibly can being a biased human and all, I don't think it is even rude. It is inconsiderate, indifferent, not in line with decorum, and not polite. But failing to be actively nice and considerate doesn't default to being rude in western society. Being rude implies some actively rude behavior, not simply the absence of politeness. Everybody has full right to arbitrarily unmatch or ghost anyone on the dating market. And in the polite-rude spectrum it falls somewhere in the middle, that I don't have a word for. It doesn't feel nice when it happens to you, but rejection never does, regardless of how politely it is done.

@radiationshepherd

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah for real, also the safest option in many cases

The level of entitlement to assume you're "owed" some sort of proper breakup after one to two weeks would be wild enough on it's own but the whole "you go girl" energy behind the Caleb thing is insane. I remember a certain group of men who also felt they were "owed" something after a few dates but the social response to their assertions seems to be incredibly different.

@OrbitalDeathRay

2 жыл бұрын

Underrated comment.

@marreco6347

2 жыл бұрын

Also, the sheer escalation from "let's have a laugh at this weird situation" to "let's harass this guy's neighbors and coworkers".

@remembertotakeshowerspleas355

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah the unsolicited nudes were the only thing this dude did wrong and for some reason were what the mob was least interested in.

@soupforfree

2 жыл бұрын

yeah, i think im so confused by how strongly everyone reacted to this guy because im so disconnected from dating app culture. it really appalls me that people will go looking for people for the SOLE purpose of dating them. feel like im getting off track tho

@ipodhty

2 жыл бұрын

Eh the response was way over the top but tbh its still a dick move. If you have been talking a lot with a person for a few weeks expecting a person to not suddenly disappear isn't unreasonable. Not abusive but just a bit mean and rude

As someone with social anxiety and depression (that causes me to act very apathetic and emotionless sometimes) the couch guy drama terrifies me. People already make jokes about quiet kids being school shooters. I'm sick of the hate on socially awkward/anxious people. We're struggling too, you just can't see it on the outside!

I think the most unnerving thing about this is even when you discuss how the west elm caleb thing has "passed" I have a feeling it hasn't "passed" for him. We bully people online and then months later when they express how much it hurt them, people say "Everyone is already over this why are you bringing it up!?" Which in itself is proof that the punishments are disproportionate. It's also disheartening to watch people miss the point again and again. For example, when people bullied Joshua Bassett because they presumed Olivia Rodrigo's album was about him and then it came out that he had suffered a severe health event brought on by the stress and anxiety, everyone turned around to point the blame at Olivia instead of searching inside themselves and seeing the harm they had done. It's just one dog pile on to the next. I really hope we can move past this behavior. It's honestly terrifying.

@margaretgibbs6673

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah, these armchair psychologists and everyone who jumps on these bandwagons...even we who criticize have the luxury of being able to consider this as an issue that hasn't personally (yet) affected us. But the people who experience this: this is their life. And in the digital age it's so much harder to just log off from *everything.* Plus now that truly thoughtless dipshits with incredibly selective moral compasses actually doxxed some of these people and played internet detective to track them down in real life and spread identifying info about them, it's going to follow them into real life for months or years. Possibly even forever. They don't get to really ever move on from this even if they want to.

I've only tangentially run into the Caleb stuff but it is baffling to me. The original TikToks are fine - some girls realized they were all going on dates with the same guy who's kind of a mid-grade asshole. Honestly I feel bad for the original girls who didn't mean for the videos to spread like this. But people are bringing gaslighting and love-bombing into it?? Those are really specific terms for types of interpersonal abuse, and showing interest for a couple dates and then ghosting is. Not that. Like yeah, West Elm Caleb's behavior with the women he dates suggests he's probably a douche in his dating life. That so does not justify the people looking up his real information, trying to get him fired, etc. This is why I don't share pretty much anything important to TikTok even when I think I have a really funny story to tell.

@goblin6587

2 жыл бұрын

doing that to many girls at once with no intention to ever date them is manipulative, and absolutely gaslighting

@suicidal.nihilist2107

2 жыл бұрын

@Kay E no one owes you attention. people have the right to stop talking to you whenever they want. get over it.

@goblin6587

2 жыл бұрын

@@suicidal.nihilist2107 and if you manipulate people they can expose that

@thepinkestpigglet7529

2 жыл бұрын

@@goblin6587 gaslighting is when you tell someone they hallucinated you hurting them not this

@nickchambers3935

2 жыл бұрын

@@goblin6587 What do you think gaslighting is? It doesn’t just mean lying, it specifically means making someone doubt their own perception of reality. Referring to any instance of dishonesty as gaslighting just devalues the term.

I think that this all goes to show just how insidiously dangerous the mindset that "there are no bad tactics, only bad targets" can be.

Ah yes, the extremely well-informed psychoanalytic skills of *flips through papers* some people on tiktok. Surely this can’t go wrong.

People in the 21st century: Haha the medieval people were so primitive, lynching people, public hangings and burning witches. We could never also people in the 21st Century:

@christianwise637

2 жыл бұрын

"This guy picked his nose in public, this is concrete proof he's a sexual predator!"

@weregretohio7728

2 жыл бұрын

I love how so many people think they're above the past and living in an advanced civilization way above animalism... like they say, people don't learn from the past, they merely repeat it. How many times does one have to hear that, for instance, Nazism or racism can't exist, or whatever else? People don't change.

thank you SO much for calling out the constant use of "narcissist" as a nasty accusation and armchair diagnosis. i have NPD and its not just harmful but really tiring especially when its only ever used in context of abuse.

@randomusername1735

2 жыл бұрын

@Kay E Are you done spreading your dumpsterfire hot takes through the comment section yet?

@herebejamz

2 жыл бұрын

@Kay E who the heck is paying you to post bad hot takes on literally every comment?

@ainsopholli439

2 жыл бұрын

@Kay E yo another person w/ bpd here you're doing to them what people do to us. if you got an opinion like this maybe just keep it to yourself

@rookregent5623

2 жыл бұрын

Oh shit what did I miss LMAO. I'm watching cartoons and I see some lovely people and missing comments-

@ainsopholli439

2 жыл бұрын

@@rookregent5623 someone was just adding stigma to people with NPD by using their BPD and experience with narcissistic abuse. as someone with BPD myself and suffered through narcissistic abuse, i assure you that most of us don't make judgement until we notice that type of action so pay it no mind

The phrase "while I don't have a psychology degree, I do watch criminal minds" was what broke me

"They thought she was leaving clues to her murders in the videos, as all competent serial killers do." Yeah, I feel like the Riddler and the Zodiac Killer have really ruined public perception of serial killers. Unless you're taunting the authorities by deliberately sending fake clues or you have some kind of compulsion to leave clues behind because you perceive it as a game, no serial killer is gonna actively sabotage their own killing sprees like that. And no, I'm not a serial killer, I just watch a lot of Criminal Minds.

@turkicnomad5632

Жыл бұрын

This is more of a true crime issue. The 24-hour, ratings-hungry news cycle has desensitized us to violence and horror that now we have become a collective Nightcrawler. I’m no Luddite or a pedagogical moralist, but there’s a palpable disregard for Real people that’s permeated social media. And it’s a highly profitable environment.

"He cheated on that girl look at how weridly he moves!" No, he just sat on a couch then gave awkward hug. Did no one ever assume he just might not like hugs?

@satinsleeves

2 жыл бұрын

Or that's just how he hugs? Like it didn't even seem that weird to me???

@CatHasOpinions734

2 жыл бұрын

Or might just not like being on camera? Like, I'm extremely camera shy, I can't stand when people pull a camera out when I'm not braced for it, to the point that my partner's immediate reaction anytime anyone does that is to try to comfort me because I know it's weird and do my best not to freak out in front of strangers, but I will probably fail if I don't have someone I trust helping me keep my cool at least a little bit. I haven't seen this clip, but I can guarantee you that if what happened to that guy had happened to me I would have been at least as awkward and tense, and it horrifies me that that's enough to attack someone over.

@dr.archaeopteryx5512

2 жыл бұрын

Hell, he could have just been tired. People tend to move less when they're tired, and it seemed to be really late in that clip.

@jeanwire3221

2 жыл бұрын

Or he was surprised, had been focused on the video game, and was trying to figure out whether to first introduce his girlfriend to his friends or greet her.

@samuelgranger8374

2 жыл бұрын

That hug didn't even seem that weird to me. Guess I shouldn't date, I might be exposed as a cheater!

Sarah has this way of diving deep into the nuance of public shaming, pulling out the most powerful details that are being ignored, forcing us to look at the harm we have done and, with kindness and understanding, shows us how we could do better. She doesn’t shame us for our sins, she doesn’t get angry, she doesn’t resort to using right-wing buzz words or any form of toxic tribalism. She simply cuts through the chaff and says what news to be said. THAT is how you change things for the better. THAT is how you use your voice to make a real difference. Sarah, you are bound for greatness.

@jessica.L.edwards

2 жыл бұрын

Hear, hear!

I remember when I was in middle school, when KZread was only like 1 or 2 years old at that point, we were given an assignment to write about YT and what we think it's for, and what it's going to become, as sort of an exercise related to what we were learning about technology and new societal functions in history. Anyway, most kids, who were much more in-tune with what YT was because they watched it far more than I did, wrote that it was a place to make funny videos, and that it was going to probably become a place where you could really express yourself and make the coolest, funniest content possible. And hey, I'd say they were mostly right. But I was incredibly cynical as a kid, and I wrote about how YT is full of nothing but bad actors who go around filming you when you're at your lowest most vulnerable point to post online so that they and millions of strangers can mock and make fun of you. I then got pulled aside by the teacher after class because she was concerned about my frame of mind, and we had this long discussion about how people aren't actively out to get you, and that there can be many positive things to social media as well. And then two weeks later, I had to call school security because two girls in the grade above me started filming me at my locker, specifically to post the video to YT so they could mock and make fun of me. This cued a repeat long conversation with the teacher afterwards. It was a distressing and confusing couple of weeks for 12-year-old me. I'm not saying I was right as a kid. I mean, most days, I wasn't, and I'm glad for that. I'm glad that on most days, the predictions of my classmates was what came true. But then every once in a while, a West Elm Caleb happens. And I realize I was right too.

@kaitlyn__L

9 ай бұрын

It can be really disorienting when you have repeated proof of bullies literaly scheming against you and teachers just insist you're being paranoid about nothing.

i'm literally twenty minutes into this video and i keep pausing it to applaud. one, this whole "prioritizing women as a collective" over these women's individual experiences reeks of bad faith radfem rhetoric, and two, as a disabled woman who's only just stepped her toes into the dating world, i can't help but notice that all the women in the tiktoks calling west elm caleb out are skinny and conventionally attractive. that's *not* to say the harassment they received was justified in any way but i can't help but wonder if this story would have gotten any traction if the women in question were, say, fat, disabled, etc. how many other women has harassment like this happened to that don't get the attention these popular tiktokers did? it just makes it really transparent that this whole situation was less about "women's rights" and more about the catharsis of publicly shaming of, what sarah and emily have correctly pinpointed here as basically a nameless, faceless avatar of misogyny as a concept. *edit:* "marginalizers adopt the language of the marginalized", "everybody thinks they're punching up" 👏 thank you for this video. the whole "taking terms out of context" thing is still a big problem on tumblr. "p*dophile" has basically become an alternate word for "person who ships something i don't like." it's ridiculous.

@kaitlyn__L

9 ай бұрын

I definitely smelled terf-y-ness on a bunch of those comments, especially the one which kept going on about knickers

“Abusers adopt the language of the abused, marginalisers adopt the language of the marginalised”. Brilliant! I need this in an article form to quote on every essay i write for uni from now on.

@Jake-vf3yp

2 жыл бұрын

There is standard format for citing KZread in MLA now.

@filipszwejser3945

2 жыл бұрын

Sooooo you would like to adopt this kind of narration for your own personal use, right?

@aazhie

2 жыл бұрын

@@filipszwejser3945Spiders are bugs, not all bugs are spiders.

@filipszwejser3945

2 жыл бұрын

@@aazhie spiders are not bugs, they are arthropods.

@lizardweedzard4495

2 жыл бұрын

I think there's no actual definition to what a bug is because it's just a layman's way of referring to small insect-like animals.

TikTok is like a Captain Planet made of all the worst aspects of social media ever

Sarah is honestly what you'd get if you took all the best part of 2017s Tumblr, matured it, and sent it too an Ivy league university. I always love your videos. You somehow always manage to say in words what the rest of us are trying to grasp at, and I think thats an amazing talent

I think couch guy also shows a another important aspect of how dangerous this is. This wasn't his video. It was a video someone else posted with him in it. You could have a minimal online presence and still become the target of the machine just from being in someone else's content. That's nuts. You could distance yourself all you want from social media and still get fed into the machine.

@kioraslate9273

2 жыл бұрын

It reminds me of how there was a trend of justifying this kind of harassment with something to the effect that people open themselves up to it just by virtue of sharing things online. "If you can't handle it then get off the internet" and all that. And all I could think of was the Star Wars kid being bullied out of school for a video that was uploaded without his consent.

@paperpersona1243

2 жыл бұрын

I mean to be fair he was the subject of the video. They were filming his reaction to seeing his gf, but I still get your point.

@alligatorjonesphd

2 жыл бұрын

Yep, there is the idea that 'they asked for it' (attention) for people who post themselves online, when that doesn't apply to people who have no consented to being filmed and posted online. He was not in public, this wasn't caught on a security camera. He was in an apartment, chilling on a couch with his friends.

@cherry-colouredpunk

2 жыл бұрын

It's crazy because it was originally the content of someone very close with him, but essentially became something neither of them owned anymore. It got claimed by the public. Your girlfriend posting a small clip of you with good intentions becoming something so hateful, something neither of you were able to control, is almost scary.

@feelingveryattackedrn5750

2 жыл бұрын

Okay the other thing with couch guy that I remember thinking when I saw it was, even if they have something going on where hes not faithful or whatever thats *their* issue and I was pretty deeply embarrassed for both of them that everyone in the comments was immediately like "oh hes totally cheating on her". Like she just wanted to do something fun and cute and he didnt even consent to the vid or prep to be in it. People should really understand how to separate "real life" videos on tiktok from peoples actual real lives.

On your note about terms like gaslighting and lovebombing being used casually: I genuinely didn't realise the abusive tactics my ex was using on me because I thought of the terms as the watered down versions they've become and was wholly unable to recognise what he was doing. As serious as they are they can be very discreet when you're unaware of them. We dated for six months - it's been a year since we broke up and I still have trust issues. It might take some serious therapy yet to work through what happened with us. Real abuse is not lighthearted.

@jklroxmysox111

2 жыл бұрын

As an actual (licensed) therapist, I totally agree

@joshk.

2 жыл бұрын

I still struggle to come to terms with the legitimate idea I had been "gaslit" due to how casually the word is thrown around. If I say to myself "I have been gaslit", it just sounds exaggerated and silly, even though the actual term is pretty damn serious

@yukiandkanamekuran

2 жыл бұрын

That's why people taking this terms in general and ending up gatekeeping them instead of educating others is harmful. Like people meme-ifying and making a huge joke about victims using them takes away from it. Most victims of gaslighting don't know they're being gaslit, they're more confused if their abuser was telling the truth or not. And to be honest, that guy could have lovebombing, we don't know his feelings and whether he really meant it or not. So even if that term is semi-inappropriate, we don't have all the information. A lot of abuse fucks you up for years to come, and can take you a long time to realize it. These words don't deserve to be used as jokes or taken from victims or trauma spaces.

I think this also got really bad on "left" Twitter for a while when anyone who didn't support your exact political stance, or even had a different strategy for achieving the same goals, was seen as morally reprehensible and therefore fair game for a pile on.

@ileutur6863

Жыл бұрын

Very good observation. Sarah's content tends to attract a lot of lefty and social justice-y type people who can't see the negative sides of the discourse at all. You either agree unconditionally or you're every right wing label in the book

@TromboneKitten

Жыл бұрын

How much are we allowed to differ from a belief before we must allow people to dogpile on us? I know this is about an interpersonal relationship but I wonder what Sarah has to say about the ethics of bullying right-wingers.

@eileengaleen2845

Жыл бұрын

Obviously I don’t know what Sarah has to say about that but I think it’s the wrong framing of a question. I think there’s a clear difference between somebody who is actively against Medicare for all and a person who thinks we should have Medicare for All but using a slightly different tactic. I am extremely pro punching Nazis

I still remember reading "So You've Been Publicly Shamed" by Jon Ronson. Finding people to shame so you can make yourself feel like a good person. There was one guy who lost his job because woman over heard making a bad, private joke at a conference. She posted him to twitter and everyone piled on. Then the people who felt he was treated unfairly piled on the woman and got her fired. Then people piled on Jon Ronson when a delete section of his manuscript featured online. The problem is so many people think they're right so they feel confident going after people who are wrong because their morals are so absolute. That's on both sides of the political divide.

@Aaron-kj8dv

Жыл бұрын

I remember he interviewed her and she vomited up all of her childhood memories unprovoked and she has a terrible relationship with men because of her father.