Thanks for checking out the video, yall! Be sure to Like/Subscribe to see more content like this! Here are some timestamps for the video if you're looking for something specific!! Timestamps Startings Stats and Proficiencies: 1:34 Level 1 abilities: 3:02 Methodologies (Subclasses): 6:29 Class Features: 11:35 Level 1 Feats: 15:48 Level 2 Feats: 22:09 Level 4 Feats: 26:30 Level 6 Feats: 29:25 Level 8 Feats: 32:48 Level 10 Feats: 35:20 Level 12 Feats: 37:07 Level 14 Feats: 38:34 Level 16 Feats: 40:15 Level 18 Feats: 42:27 Level 20 Feats: 44:21

@horseblinderson4747

Жыл бұрын

Must be an agile or finesse weapon if it's a melee weapon with the thrown trait. Bombs and improvised weapons are neither. So if you crap the hot tub on your strategem roll you can always throw a bomb or a whatever's handy or just attack someone else

I totally get your complaints about the "meta-breaking" feats, but I also think it's a way for a non-genius to play a genius character, in the same way a scrawny nerd can already play a powerful fighter. It's always been a lot more difficult to play as a character much smarter than yourself and this kind of helps with that.

@HeribertoEstolano

2 жыл бұрын

Exactly! It's like those video-games that make you play as a detective putting all sorts of highlights on clues.

@origami_dream

Жыл бұрын

Honestly that pretty much sums up the whole class, down to Devise a Stratagem, and why i love it. I like to think i ain't a dummy, but ain't *no one* Sherlock Holmes. But... why wouldn't you want to play that kinda character? We've got *so* many classes to be Aragorn or Gandalf or Clint Eastwood or Conan or even Hermione... this lets you be Sherlock, and it does it in a thematic and mechanical way. Yes, it takes some GM buy-in to work with it, because it's way easier to go "i swing my sword really hard" than "i predict what they're gonna do really hard" but the mechanics do *so* much of the work for you as the GM. They limit things in ways that let the player be cool without leaving you flailing on your back helplessly. It's just a wonderfully-designed class.

@T0beyeus

Жыл бұрын

@@origami_dream And there is an opportunity cost since these Feats tend to have other combat or passive Feats competing for that levels Feat slot.

@Creshex8

Жыл бұрын

@@T0beyeus Let every other party member worry about dealing the damage. I find everyone is so single minded about that aspect of the game. I chose the investigator specifically to be a powerhouse OUTSIDE of combat. Very few other classes come close to my ability to lead and direct the party on the right course. And I’m always swimming in information that the other party members aren’t privy to.

@ttrev007

Жыл бұрын

That is a really good point

I like the "That's Odd" feat even as a GM, one thing my dad did when he GM'd us in 3.5 was to hand us notes if we saw something the others didn't and let us decide if we were going to share it. I think this is a great way to handle that feat and allow the player room to roleplay up the I'm smarter than everyone else aspect lol

A big part of how I understand the features and feats here is less that they skip roleplaying or skip puzzles, but enable a player to roleplay as a character that is incredibly perceptive and analytical, even if the player is not those things themselves

I believe the "Just One More Thing" feat is a reference to the catchphrase of Columbo, one of the most famous detectives of the mystery genre, and not to the uncle from the Jackie Chan Adventures cartoon.

Nonat1s: "I like when they put mechanics to roleplay" Also Nonat1s: "This could just be done with roleplay!"

@jackalcoyote8777

Жыл бұрын

Lel

The reason the investigator has a "know things or find things for free" feat selection is because it's really easy to play an 8 int character (hurr hurr me dumb), but it's really hard to play an 18 int master investigator. These feats represent the discrepancy between player ability and character ability in the same way as other classes get feats to always find taps for free or whatnot.

Time to make a Fighter with a Investigator Archetype. With "That's Odd" feat. Also Red Herring.

@Nonat1s

3 жыл бұрын

The police are on their way to your location. Do not resist. You will be transported somewhere befitting your ilk.

@ColdNapalm42

3 жыл бұрын

I like the way you think.

As a DM I love That's Odd. It keeps the game moving. The way I see it, it focuses players to look in the areas they need to look and more importantly if there isn't anything important in the room they don't waste time because they got caught up on some detail they got fixated on. I love the meta-breaking feats especially for a class like this.

@Lechteron

3 жыл бұрын

I take this and the predictive purchase stuff and all as a way to make it work that the character is smarter than the player.

@Nonat1s

3 жыл бұрын

It's definitely a personal preference thing. For players and GMs who really want to keep things moving, I'll admit it is really nice. I just come from groups who enjoy spending 45 minutes investigating the strange crack in a wall lol. We once took 2 IRL hours to open a door lol

@Lechteron

3 жыл бұрын

@@Nonat1s I work 60 hour weeks and have a one year old. I don't got time for all that anymore. I have two groups that get 3-4 hours alternating weeks. Need to make whatever progress I can make. My preference tends to be putting that extra 45 minutes into combat. That's actually another thing I like about those feats, particularly That's Odd. Since they're more likely to find hidden doors they're more likely to be a little more powerful. If the PCs are more powerful then I can be more tactical without completely curb stomping them, just scaring them a little. I'm much more tactically minded than any of my players so if they're stronger then I get to have more fun cuz at the end of the day I want to lose but in a way that gives them tension. My players who played Plaguestone shudder at the mention of murder holes and zephyr hawks. Lol

@GoblinLord

2 жыл бұрын

@@Lechteron "You're strong, so now I don't have to hold back" (rolls up sleeves to reveal dice strapped to arm like tiny dagger sheathes)

@caseycoker1051

2 жыл бұрын

@@Nonat1s Yeah, that's a preference deal for sure. I personally get tired of "I'm searching for traps" or "every player rolls perception / investigation every time we enter an area" in every single room, on every single door, in every single hallway, etc.

I'm in full defense of the predictive purchase, as one thing to keep in mind is that the player and character are different people. The character is a prepared genius experienced in this world. The player isn't necessarily that. The cooldown feels really fair to me.

@frejoh87

3 жыл бұрын

Was going to comment regarding the same thing. It seemed like Nonat missed that there is a cooldown!

@Creshex8

Жыл бұрын

That and we are in the same world where the wizard is a playable class… anything game breaking about those? Predict the future, read minds, turn invisible, summon giant elementals….. naw, it’s the investigator that has the unrealistic abilities!

@dungeonmaster3464

Жыл бұрын

I get that opinion, but it still feels a bit deus ex machina-ish for my taste. It's like that anime character who inexplicably knows everything the writer needs them to know without any reasonable explanation. Yes, there are casters who can arguable do even more, but when an investigator can literally pull any item they want out of their pants without any explanation of why they thought they would need it, it goes from cool to silly imo. To be fair, I do think Nonat is a bit harsh at points. For players who aren't good at preparing and solving mysteries on their own experience, these meta feats let them actually functionally play their character. Not everyone has a degree in forensic science and reads mystery novels every waking second, but it comes at the cost of the Investigator character functionally playing themself. I kind of side with Nonat on this. If I'm playing a character that gives me all the skills and tools to figure things out, I'd like to figure them out on my own wit. But I also don't fault anyone who stock up all the meta feats and leaves the story to the DM.

@musumeyo

Жыл бұрын

​@@dungeonmaster3464 Letting your character pull out just the right tool for the job at precisely the right time helps with the fantasy of playing a cool, suave James Bond type of character instead of a bumbling Professor Gadget type. I'd argue that it's not for pulling out shark repellant in that 1/1,000,000 scenario when your party somehow ends up in the middle of the ocean without any warning, but it's for those, "Oh yeah, I forgot to buy pitons and we're spelunking..." kind of moments. It's hard for a character to look smart if the player makes a blatant mistake like forgetting to buy something really basic and essential for an upcoming area or encounter. If I was playing an investigator, I'd 100% use it for reasonably predictable use cases like health potions or rations. I wouldn't pull out something silly that there'd be no reasonable chance of foreseeing a need for, like a vorpal sword for a randomly-summoned jabberwock. Just my $0.02.

The meta-breaking Investigator feats would've saved literally 10+ hours of my time as a GM. I cannot count how many times I've had players enter a perfectly normal room and waste an hour debating whether there was a trap or an ambush in the room somewhere, describing how they search it and what precautions they take, and tip-toeing their way around it as agonizingly slow as they could out of sheer paranoia. The first 5-10 minutes are usually entertaining for me, but after that it gets old very fast. And what am I supposed to do? If I just tell them "No, seriously, this room isn't trapped" then I've set the expectation that if they just waste our time I'll just tell them what they want, and if I refuse they'll get even more suspicious. If I don't tell them anything, they waste the group's time investigating literally nothing. The only other solution is to just go "Uh... yeah, sure, there's a trap/ambush in here! You did it! Great job!" Not only does that reward their paranoia and reinforce their instinct to search literally everything, but it also forces me to come up with an encounter on the spot, and that not only means the game gets slowed down but I also wind up handing out more XP and loot than anticipated. If the group had an Investigator with any of these feats on hand, the entire situation is totally avoided. That saves everybody time, and it allows us to get around these infuriating "Search the empty room / follow a pointless lead" time-wasters that bog down gameplay and narrative progress. WRT whether things like That's Odd should require a skill check... doesn't that totally defeat the purpose? If the Investigator needs to make a check to see if they notice something strange in the room, isn't that just the same as searching for it to begin with? Changing the check from Perception to something else, like Society, also seems like a waste of a feat - Investigators are already getting Master Perception at Level 7 and Legendary Perception at Level 13 with no further investment. This would mean you're taking a feat to switch the check from something you're already great at to something you're slightly better at, but unlike Perception you'd actually need to spend skill increases to stay good at it. Why bother?

@GoblinLord

2 жыл бұрын

I'd say if it's a skill check, maybe make it simple for the Investigator but not simple for the other players, like basic DC, like, let's say they're all level 1, 15 DC Perception Check, for an Investigator, maybe it's a -10 to the DC, aka DC of 5 while it's a Formality (cause good luck missing a 5), the Investigator class maybe shouldn't be a plot device like their inspiration, Sherlock Holmes, is, Holmes has basically perfect Investigation, but in other shows/series, Investigators/Detectives tend to miss something, even if it's small, hell you could even have an upgrade feat later that can let the Investigator reroll it using Recall Knowledge later for a "How could I have missed that?!" moment that some stories have (for when they DO miss something)

@Creshex8

Жыл бұрын

Wow, this is a savagely well thought out response. I’m glad there are GM’s like you. My biggest worry about That’s Odd and Red Herring is that anxious GM’s include the related information for free… no investigator needed. I see some GM’s as too impatient to let a party pursue a worthless lead. And some are too obsessed with keeping their perfectly thought out plot in line to let an important clue go unnoticed. You really presented an original view of these feats. I do notice how much time past parties have wasted being way too cautious and wasting too much time in empty hallways and meaningless rooms.

@steakdriven

Жыл бұрын

Oh my God same here

I think "That's odd" is 100% based on how good your DM is. He can give you a very subtle clue, that if you pursue it with follow up checks, might make you crack a case wide open. For example, you walk into a room, you can see is has been tossed, someone broke in, searched the place, and left. You pick up on a vague smell. You make a check about the smell, it is tobacco, you search around, find small amounts of dottle laying on the floor, you make another check to recall knowledge about what brand it might be or if you recognize the smell up close. etc etc and you connect that a prison guard smoked this brand of tobacco that you met earlier this week. I think this ability can lead to some really cool narratives, but the DM has to be on point about what kind of clue is given.

Why Implausible Purchase? Three words: Shark. Repellent. Spray.

I understand not enjoying the idea of Predictive Purchase, but to me it’s more fun to reach an obstacle and think “hmm, what’s a way we can deal with this?” than it is to reach an obstacle and think “well, we didn’t expect this so now we’re SOL unless one of the casters has a spell to help out.” Creative progress feels better than being stuck, and planning for everything isn’t the same as actual planning or problem solving.

I feel like a lot of the 'meta breaking' perks can still be used for great characterization of PCs, if you think about it a bit. Like, Red herring could, instead of being as mechanical as "Nah, you're wrong, that clue doesn't matter" it could be more akin to "After a brief look upon the curtain, you see that the tearing is definitely from old age, deducing it to be irrelevant" at least then you're showing off the power of your character. Also, of course, super table dependent on whether they're the best, or the worst perk. I'm personally not a very smart person, but I like the archetype, so being able to be nudged in the right direction can be really really nice, when I want to pretend to not be a dumbass once a week.

Alright here we go: I'm gonna defend the investigator's game-breaking abilities. Specifically, the Big One: their power to find stuff without first rolling a perception check. First, I'm going to highlight a couple fairly common scenarios where breaking the game in this manner is actually perfectly okay (or even beneficial). Second--and more importantly--I'm going to explain why these skip-the-roll cheat feats actually enhance mystery campaigns. FYI, this is not a dunk on your own takes, Nonat; rather, this is just a different perspective from someone who thinks investigators are cool as hell. So, part one: why it's okay to break the game. There are lots of scenarios where handing information to the players instead of making them roll for it is really helpful. The easiest one I can think of is when you're NOT running a mystery campaign, but have hit a bottleneck that requires the players to do a bit of sleuthing. Having an investigator in the party dramatically increases the odds that this bottleneck won't grind the campaign to a halt, allowing the party to enjoy the change of pace without accidentally nuking the campaign or bypass that weird bit in a published adventure that's not to everyone's tastes. Similarly, it sometimes just feels bad to miss out on entire sections of an adventure because someone bungled a roll or didn't think to search a specific piece of furniture: the investigator's kit lets the party know when and where to look for these optional goodies without railroading them. Your prep might still get wasted if they decide not to pursue a certain lead, but they're at least guaranteed to know the lead is there, waiting for them to return should they ever change their minds. It's a great cover for when the game's rules don't fit the table's needs without forcing the GM to suddenly become the Best Game Designer of All Time or Whatever. Basically, the investigator makes both the GM's and the players' lives a little easier, provided it's in the right context. And now, part two: why free information is actually good. So, the thing about mysteries is that they don't actually withhold information; they carefully ration it, sprinkling little tidbits here and there that eventually coalesce into a complete picture. The audience then competes with the protagonists to pick out which pieces are important and how they fit together, and the winner is determined at the end with the Big Reveal. But TTRPGs are a little different: the audience members ARE the protagonists. Therefore, they still have to complete that picture, but they have to do it from a limited, subjective viewpoint. They only get to see what the GM tells them they can see, according to the mechanics. So, whereas a book conveys information directly from the page to the audience, a TTRPG scene first gets filtered through the GM's narration and then AGAIN through the character's skill checks before finally reaching its intended target. An investigator makes sure that information gets through, allowing the players to get right to the actual hard work of a mystery: sorting all those puzzle pieces out, determining which ones matter, and figuring out what they mean. While this can be intimidating as all hell for a GM--most of us are not and never will be published mystery authors--it cuts down to the core essence of what makes a mystery fun. If mysteries aren't your wheelhouse, that's totally fine; not every published player option is going to be a good fit for every table (the PFS doesn't allow evil characters, for example, even though the rules for playing them are very clearly outlined by Paizo themselves). But still, I believe the class's core design philosophy is solid, and I think it's a perfect fit for an intrigue campaign (just as a healing font cleric's ability to outright delete undead is ideal for something with lots and lots of zombies). TL;DR I stayed up past midnight for investigator hot takes. Getting over campaign bottlenecks is good, and mysteries only work if the players can actually find the damn clues. Anyway, really enjoyed the video, can't want to see the other three APG classes. You kick ass, dude.

@spiiwii

3 жыл бұрын

I agree 100%. As someone who isn't always great at asking the right questions, the investigator class is kinda like training wheels. To me it's like making a diplomacy check without having to ALSO be very eloquent myself. The bard has high charisma and as such THEY are the eloquent one, whether or not the player is. In the same way, as an investigator, the class itself allows the investigation to be done well, even if the player might not know what questions to ask.

@n.l.g.6401

3 жыл бұрын

@@spiiwii Right! It's very hard to roleplay a character who is more knowledgeable about something than you are, especially if it's something you can't google in-session or study ahead of time (such as your GM's wacky homebrew).

@yawmoght

3 жыл бұрын

I would add: as with many other subjects, communication and trust is key. I have a player with that´s odd, encouraged by me (he needs that reassurance push for now). He knows I will try to tell things in a "roleplaying" way, and if I don´t tell something, is for good reason. I know he will try not to talk to others as if "I have a voice in my head that tells me to investigate that desk". We will colaborate to produce fun histories and situations. Those feats can be abused, and with malevolent players, can be used to try to break a game or get hung up on "here says you have to tell me this". They are a little dangerous in that. But they are tools, and it´s up to us how to use them.

@AvenKallan

2 жыл бұрын

Your rant against prescient purchase seems to ignore The fact that it can only be used for one item once and can't do it again until you've had a chance to repurchase supplies. If you're using it for an extra ration you're not using it for closing spikes or a grappling hook, or anything else. It is not "Just having a merchant's shop in your backpack".

@woomod2445

2 жыл бұрын

@@AvenKallan I'd be 100% okay with it being so as a GM.

I love how Investigators can basically ignore strength and still be a front line fighter Also I think you are over looking a very important part of the alchemical studies there is a new type of mutagen called the drakes heart mutagen that gives you an item bonus to AC equal to breastplate and a Dex cap high enough that if you reach it you are basically in heavy armor

Silly youngster. You did not attribute "Just One More Thing" to Columbo.

@Nonat1s

3 жыл бұрын

Oh, wow! I never knew that was a reference to something else! 1995, born and raised lol.

@JamesTillmanjimthegray

3 жыл бұрын

@@Nonat1s yep it was his famous statement :)

@JamesTillmanjimthegray

3 жыл бұрын

kzread.info/dash/bejne/q4Fsy9qIc9PKqNo.html

@kelmore522

3 жыл бұрын

Wel, I am old. 1961 born and aged!

@quark12000

3 жыл бұрын

You beat me to it, kelmore522.

24:06 As a GM, this whole hypothetical situation with making the grey mud suddenly matter because a character made it a lead and the Red Herring feat somehow negating that I don't see. You can still integrate that, you can still make the call that something is now significant. You could still absolutely say "Yes, there is something of strange significance to you about this mud" and go on with the summoner story, I don't see how this feat prevents you from doing this. In fact, I would say it encourages you to go down these spontaneous derailings, being forced to make the immediate call on whether or not it is significant. How I see this feat is just a means of preventing the players from getting derailed on something that for the importance of your plot is in fact a red herring, simply insignificant, or something that you as a GM simply don't want to pursue (Which I feel like you'd be doing anyway even without this feat, pursuing the derailings you do want/think would be fun and revealing the insignificance of the ones you don't, this just forces you to make the call then and there). This feat doesn't force you to say something is insignificant, you can make it significant because you are the GM. Why would the torn curtains be unimportant? You're the GM, your job is to make them important! You could also make the curtains an actual red herring! Say to the investigator PC "You notice something off about the torn curtains", the pc pursues the curtains as a lead, you respond by saying "The curtains appeared at first to be torn by the claws of an animal, you now immediately notice small discrepancies in the tears, these curtains were torn in this manner as a red herring, perhaps to make the disappearance of the homeowner look like the work of some animal or beast". This would prevent the players from going off into the woods and searching for a beast, foiling the true perpetrator's attempt at throwing the party off their trail. And I feel like this is balanced because they have to pursue the specific red herring focus as a lead, rather than gaining this information as soon as they enter a room. The only thing I see as a negative about this feat is that it removes the tension of the players second-guessing themselves while on a trail and reduces your ability to throw in some plot twists, but if the Investigator PC took this feat, it's likely because they want to make sure they're always hot on the trail of the actual mystery and not get thrown off.

@Creshex8

Жыл бұрын

Red Herring is the feat I think deserved the least criticism. It saves you time, energy, and wasted thought from pursuing something meaningless. The only problem with this and some other investigator feats is that some GM’s automatically include these bonuses without the investigator. How many GM’s would be satisfied by their plot getting derailed by letting the PC’s pursue something meaningless? How many GM’s try hard to make an important clue remain undetectable? It generally seems most GM’s include stuff like That’s Odd and Red Herring for free to all the players.

Great video. I would point out that "Just one more thing" was the the iconic phrase used by Columbo in the eponymously named TV detective show which ran for about 30 years .

I feel like you, as a gm, interpret That's Odd to be way too powerful. All it does is let you know for sure if there *should* be a check made, not negating it. The desk example shouldn't have been "the desk is suspicious" and they find the thing they're looking for. It should've been something more akin to: "you, alone, notice that all the drawers in this room were seemingly opened and shut in an urgent fashion" thus letting the party know they should do a seek action. That's Odd is really a tutorial feat for new players. Any vet would just be doing seek checks on everything regardless of what the gm says (since if he's pursuing a lead he already gets hella bonuses). If someone rolls an investigator, just add some red herring clues in there. Have them notice something that leads to a stash of collector baseball cards or something. Investigators do make the game harder for GM's, but only in a challenging sort of way. It makes you stay on your toes.

@Nonat1s

3 жыл бұрын

I definitely over-exaggerate in the video lol. I do seriously have an issue with corridors and trapped rooms though. While you can occasionally add red herrings, not every room in a dungeon will have collections of baseball cards 😂

@TheUnluckyEverydude

3 жыл бұрын

@@Nonat1s true! It's not something I'd want a veteran to play, but someone who just moved over from dnd and wants to try a cool new thing? I'd recommend it.

@rylandrc

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheUnluckyEverydude From what I understand of Paizo's intentions, the advanced players guide and the content in it was made for more veteran players who want more out of the game, not beginner players who are just getting into fantasy roleplay systems. This indicates to me that the Investigator was designed with more veteran players in mind.

@HenshinFanatic

3 жыл бұрын

@@Nonat1s eh, I personally don't have the same hang-ups with regards to the "super-guide" feats since I'd rather continue with the plot than get stuck because the dingus who shotgunned the Investigator role is dumber than a standard shonen protagonist.

@brutusthecat6044

3 жыл бұрын

The "That's Odd", "Red Herring", etc. feats are designed to fill the fantasy of being Sherlock. Being the smartest man in the room and just doing that movie zoom in on the things that stand out in a room kinda thing. In a way I think these feats are perfectly fine if running a published adventure that inherently have more linear story lines, in more homebrew sandboxy stories/settings I can this being more problematic. I do both so I can see myself being ok with it in some games and it driving me mad in others.

I think that these meta feats heavily depend on your gms style. I've played with gms who would just let you run into meaningless stuff for hours, so Red Herring would have been a godsend in discerning what is actually important vs what is not. As a player, shopping trips annoy me to no end so pedictive purchase is a godsend and I'll pick this up the moment I get the ability to do so.

I mean that plot the future feat sounds like a Mundane version of stuff like Augry which is normally something only spellcasters can do. I think its neat that they have given some of these more esoteric powers to non-magical classes

I feel like this is just a martial version of divination spells. Like literally all the issues you had are things that divination specialists can do, this just makes the character look smart instead of clairvoyant.

One thing I've mentioned on several other videos about the Investigator that I feel is extremely important to understand as a GM is that while it can definitely shortcut you to information and help speed you through an investigation, it does also empower you as the GM to put together some truly mystifying adventures. I've had some players in the past that were so dense that needed obvious leads in order to string them along through an adventure or they'd spend half the game session interrogating people in the tavern that have nothing to do with the case. With an investigator in the party though you've got pretty much a DM plot device in the hands of a player and can easily guide a party through the twists and turns of a truly sherlockian mystery letting the players feel like badasses for actually solving it. It just adds an additional layer to your plans when you're putting things together, and the investigator player might end up as a "VIP" in the party for them to protect along the adventure as if they lose them it'll definitely raise the difficulty by a large amount. TL;DR - Investigators can be a tool for DM's to tell much more elaborate stories without having to worry about forcing their players to flop around on the floor uselessly.

@Gloomfall

3 жыл бұрын

Also, it's worth noting that "obvious clues" are typically pointed out when a player enters the room regardless as part of the initial room description. Which is why it's specifically mentioned as not included in the "That's Odd" feat. Additionally traps are not "suspicious" and would not be covered by the "That's Odd" feat. That's specifically what Trap Finder is for.

I like this format! Though i would like a beginner's guide video for the APG classes, even if they're advanced classes lol

@Nonat1s

3 жыл бұрын

I might makes the Beginner's Guides for these classes at some point! That could be good for newer players interested in these classes.

As a GM, I LOVE That's odd. It gives me a useful tool to point my party towards something I really don't want them to miss. And there is always something like that. And when I don't want something to be automaticly detected, there can always be one more secret drawer or locker in a room with something interesting, yet not important.

I showed a friend that never played Pathfinder "That's Odd feat". He said it's a nightmare for players. But I really like it. I think it could be made into a fun thing.

@Nonat1s

3 жыл бұрын

I over-exagerrate in the video for comedic effect, but the feat really comes down to your table. If everyone is fine with it, there's really no problem, but if it annoys people at the table, then I'd avoid it. Everyone will have very different opinions on the feat, and so each table may choose to use it or not, and I think that's perfectly fine. 👍

"That's Odd" sounds like the Detect Magic cantrip for non-magic things. How do you feel about Detect Magic?

@jamesrivettcarnac

3 жыл бұрын

Super easy to fuck with. My players are terrified of that spell with any intelligent adversary. Abjuration and illusion. Everywhere.

Honestly, there is something I have to say in defense of the "insta-clue" feats - they work in the DM's favor as much as they do for the player. In fact, I like to call them "stop being an idiot" feats. Hear me on this, ok? Imagine the scene: the players are futzing around on the scene of a crime, and your Investigator player starts doing his schtick - and he's the classic "talk over others" dude (I bet you had a few ones). "I look on the floor for tracks, checking under the..." (Red Herring activates) "Nope, not important." "Then I'm gonna check every single book in the bookcase, looking over every single" "Not important." (other players breathe a sigh of relief at NOT having to wait their "hog-the-scene" teammate ask for a detailed description of the FIVE HUNDRED books in the bookcase) "You said the victim had a collection of glass beads from around the world, right? I'm gonna check every single..." "NOT. FREAKING. IMPORTANT." Basically, these abilities keep the story flowing by disallowing spotlight-hogging morons - I mean, players - from dragging the scene on, and on, and on, and on, and freakin' on, and stop talking before the Barbarian's player tosses you out of the room - no, not your character, YOU... And since they're cleverly disguised as helping abilities, mr. Center-of-stage doesn't notice until it's WAY too late. ...as you can easily guess, I have had WAY more than my fair share of these players.

Adding my two cents to the defense of That's Odd. Taking the example, the odd brick. Could be a secret door to another room, could be a button that makes the floor underneath you open into a pit of acid... the text says "you don't know why it's suspicious," so just because there's something strange in the room doesn't necessarily mean it's something that you *want* to mess with straight away - which would still require the relevant checks (Perception for most traps for example). So as a GM, and someone who is playing the class, I can see it backfiring in spectacular ways.

Hey! I love your videos, just found you this week while I'm devouring all the books I have on 2e to get ready for a game on saturday! I have a player running an unarmed investigator (think something like elliot spencer from leverage). So he's going monk archetype and using his stances and athletic studies to smart his way into combat and controlling the battlefield. Thanks for going over most if not all of the options so I know what to ban!

@Nonat1s

3 жыл бұрын

Haha I'm glad you're enjoying the video! The monk/investigator sounds super rad! Have him look into the "Martial Artist" archetype in the APG! He may find it more appealing than the Monk archetype!

I think investigators are a great base class for a lot of archetype based builds. Extra skill feats, great perception progression, and both the Alchemical Sciences and Forensic Medicine methodologies are good to have for anyone. Also, there are a lot of levels where you aren't necessarily going to feel like your missing out on something really good.

all the meta breaking stuff seems super useful if youre with an inexperienced group of players that maybe dont roleplay well or arent good at putting clues together on their own. can definitely save many hours in game time of players debating things that totally dont matter and are only slowing down the game

I think I agree with Nonat on the concept of meta-knowldege feats. If I'm playing a character that gives me all the tools I need to lead my battle minded party down the right path, then I'd like to use those tools myself rather than leaving my Investigator on auto-pilot and letting the DM do all the work. It depends on how the party and the DM likes to play the game. Nonat is the type of DM who wants to engage with the Investigator, and slowly reword them with information for using their skills well, and feats like That's Odd removes player interaction. On the other hand, for a DM who wants to tell a story with a good pace, the will appreciate a character specifically designed to keep the game moving and let them continue telling their story. For a player like me who wants to engage with the mystery and walk though the scene step by step, these feats cut out a part of what makes the class interesting. Likewise, I acknowledge that a lot of people play Investigators to fulfill a non-combative support roll in their party, and these feats let them do their job guaranteed.

Back in my day...! You've heard enough about this, but yeah, Columbo, highly recommend watching to get into the Investigator mindset. Trickster's Ace I believe is a reference to MacGyver (another investigator!). He's able to improvise an implausibly capable device which frankly almost magical qualities. Like at one point I believe he created a water cutter from a water hose and a very narrow nozzle to cut through a cement wall, ignoring that the pressure just isn't there to do such a thing. This feat is just that ability brought to its logical end when actual magic IS involved. You improvise a device which lets you do something to get you out of a jam, exactly like Mac. Known Weakness I've had a bit of a question about honestly. Originally I and my DM considered this Recall Knowledge check to essentially be a spontaneous "ah, I remember there's a sensitive anatomical point right here, and with how he's moving it'll be exposed.... now!" sort of thing rather than learning actual Recall Knowledge stuff. The penalties for repeated Recall Knowledge checks don't mount, it's just a turn after turn check to attempt a critical success (which as an investigator is probably not too hard). But, rules as written, it doesn't explicitly say you don't get knowledge about the target, and everyone seems to agree it would work as a normal skill check, so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I like this format. As for the whole predictive purchasing and trickster's ace feats, Investigators in 1E gained the alchemical and magic skills of rogues and alchemists. Since a lot of those abilities are now skill and general feats, it seems more out of place because there are no accompanying investigator feats. I do think that the methodologies deserve more feats.

i imagine the gm clues as that moment in sherlock holmes when sherlock sees something why talking or looking other stuff. else if i wanted to play a sherlock holmes type of character i would be each room asking "its there something wrong in this room ?". this just makes it quicker

@Nonat1s

3 жыл бұрын

I suppose, but even as a player I'd rather make a perception check to try and find something rather than just ask a blatant "Is anything weird in here?" But that's also just my opinion.

I can get the frustrations. But honestly having a character that is ALWAYS, prepared, and can notice hidden things is very hard to properly roleplay. Maybe not the buy all the things, but the noticing traps feel. This just allows a character concept to work without annoying everyone, or being on constant alert.

Consider though: Predictive Purchase allows you to pull out your bat-shark repellent, or your bat-cuffs from your utility belt

I think you might have missed that Prescient Planner/Consumable are basically once per adventure! Or at least, once every time you go to the shops. That might make it more palatable to you. :) Also, Plot the Future seems similar to just a plain old commune with the gods, y'know what I mean? I don't know if it's in Pathfinder, but those spells are usually "Ask your god (i.e. the gm) if what you're about to do is a good or bad idea."

Dude your editing and your humor are fabulous! Liked and Subscribed for sure!

The athletic strategist feat just makes me think immediately of the pit fight scene from RDJ's Sherlock Holmes movie.

I love Red Herring. It stops my group from focusing on dumb things that I didn't plan to have significant impact.

I like how you can run a full on all Investigator game and each one have a specific role on the crime solving team even before you get to the level where you can archetype.

I've ran for an investigator before and on the That's Odd feat I let the player know secretly that they notice something. It still functions the same but there's still that moment of "hey the desk has been moved" without making it as obvious and awkward.

I like the predictive purchase and similar feats, because it cuts down on the length of the shopping episodes, the over-planning, and waffling about both of those things, because it seems every table I ever joined is full with indecisive people (which yes, includes myself).

An int based marshal build? I can't be the only one to hear that and immediately think "This is the Marshall build that archetypes into wizard."

@Nonat1s

3 жыл бұрын

An investigator with a wizard archetype would be VERY powerful! Amazing synergy.

@dmc8706

3 жыл бұрын

@@Nonat1s I can't help but think of divination specialist for flavor.

Hey I would handle the that's Odd feat of the Investigator as just always succeeding in perception checks when entering special rooms and instead give him a note I have prepared for the session. Sometimes I would just tell him something that would help him discover the suspicious thing or would hint on something foreshadowing some events, a little puzzle or riddle that would help on other Problems. Yeah that's a lot for one feat but I kinda like it, you can easily do some nice puzzles and it guarantees you that the Players find at least one thing to help them on that.

@WilhelmMfoudou

3 жыл бұрын

And I just do it on special occasions .. not every room, that would be just way to emerson breaking. So I think it's a nice bonus but you just always get at least one thing to help you on some occasions

@Nonat1s

3 жыл бұрын

I actually really adore this take on the feat. I think, like you're doing, once or twice per session they get that special note makes the feat much cooler and more manageable for the GM. Rather than having to write something suspicious out for every single room, it just comes out in specific locations to make the event memorable and make the investigator feel useful.

I really enjoy this format. Well done Sir, well done.

@Nonat1s

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you, sir. Your compliments are well received. Mmm-quite.

"Just One More Thing" Is a reference to The great and long running TV drama from the last century, "Columbo" One of the best Detective Drama series of all time.

I really prefer your deep dive videos to the others I think you do a really good job on them and they give a lot of information that I didn’t even know was there… Please keep the deep dives coming

for the "One More Thing" you could also pull a Matlock skit as HE'S an Investigator and he also says something similar to "just one more thing" or "Just another thing" lol

Thank you for the solid explanation of the class I was kinda having a hard time wrapping my head around this class (now to watch the rest of the video

@Nonat1s

3 жыл бұрын

I'm glad I was able to help! Hope you enjoyed the rest of the video!

Reconstruct the scene is awesome... I experienced it in a few video games, namely Call of Cthulhu. Nice.

Nothing like a fully explained class with tips. Great job and thanks!

@Nonat1s

3 жыл бұрын

Glad to do it! Thanks for watching!

I like this format, and I liked the old format. You do a good job on both kinds.

My biggest complaint about the Investigator is the restriction on Devise a Stratagem to only Agile and Finesse weapons. That makes sense for Rogues, which are DEX based characters and combatants. But the precision damage of the Investigator comes not from any skill or quality of their weapon, but from their knowledge of the target. There's no point in Investigators being proficient in all martial weapons, when they can't even use most of them with primary combat ability. I would be happy, if their precision damage scaled equal to, or even worse than Rogues, if it meant I could use whatever martial weapon I wanted. This applies to armor too. Again, Investigators are not Stealth/DEX characters, there's no reason they shouldn't be able to use medium armor by default.

To answer a question you weren't really asking to be answered - you still buy things on your shopping trip when you have Predictive Purchase because you can only use it once then you have to have gone shopping again for it to function again. Fine for one item while running through a dungeon, but then you're out of luck until you get back to town again. Eh. Doesn't bother me nearly as much as the REALLY immersion breaking feats in this section.

@Nonat1s

3 жыл бұрын

I definitely overexaggerated that one. But the upgraded version at level 16 is BUSTED.

Interesting note: a dual-classed investigator/rogue gets a skill feat at every level, PLUS the extra feats granted by skill lessons, since it's a differently named class feature.

Ah yes listening to another full explanation of a class even though I'm a dm

@Nonat1s

3 жыл бұрын

You and me. We'll know how every class feature of every class works....and we'll never get to play any of them.

@ihaveterriblerolls9531

3 жыл бұрын

Could be worse. You could be learning all these details and never get the chance to play the game at all because your normal group doesn't want to switch.

@salazar5100

3 жыл бұрын

@@Nonat1s ooo that cut deep

I like this format.

I usually don't bother liking videos... because I'm a terrible person... but your like-the-video shenanigans earned like #613 from me.

No magic? Intelligence based? Not designed for committing crimes? Batman.

Been thinking of making a strategist, who while very smart is good at supporting allies but not with magic. The investigator looked good and as you mentioned in your video, taking the marshal archetype. Thanks for the video

When it comes to "That's Odd", I actually kinda like it, and would be fine with a PC having it (I tend to GM more than play). The thing is, it does require more preparation on the part of the GM - you need to know whether there's something suspicious in a room, and you should tell the player without them asking. Feats that automatically give information aren't going to work well in a pick-up game - I don't think this would work in Pathfinder Society, for example - but in the right home campaign? It works like in Elementary - everybody notices the blood stain, but Holmes notices the tilt of the floor that he then deduces is because of a safe room. You wouldn't tell them that there's a safe room, but you might say that the floor feels a little uneven, like it's tilted ever so slightly - and you would tell them without them needing to ask, because them asking in every room is just going to kill the pacing of the game. The important thing to remember with information gathering class features and spells is that they might provide information, but they don't solve the problem of what to do with that information. They don't prevent you from hiding clues; they allow you to place clues that they might only find by using those abilities.

@dmc8706

3 жыл бұрын

Exactly! "Something about his mannerisms seems off to you but you can't put you finger on what it is." Maybe text messages like this to the investigator so the othe players don't hear them.

@jjerryw

3 жыл бұрын

I believe you could also approach in a more narrative way where instead of the GM already knows what's odd or not in the room, the GM asks the player what he believes is odd in the room. It could work in more sandboxy game where the players help the GM build the story instead of already having everything laid out. I'm saying that because there are TTRPGs that have similar mechanics. But you're right it wouldn't work in every type of game.

@bjornjunker6320

3 жыл бұрын

The problem isnt the logic in said feat the problems is that it steals agency from other players since normally if someone any class is investigating a room ill give them these odd feelings about a room/person . But now the investigator has monopoly on these feelings

Artist 1: "Hmm, How should I make the Investigators face?" Artist 2: "Morgan Freeman with no freckles"

i expected these to be kinda like Xp to Level 3's class guides, but Holy Ravioli these are long! this is gonna be good!

These types of videos are very very enjoyable.

@Nonat1s

3 жыл бұрын

I glad to hear it! I love making them, so I'm happy that everyone is enjoying them!

I think I understand where feats like "That's Odd" come from: they solve a frustrating problem with investigation games: missing vital clues. Requiring a perception check to find vital clues means you can fail and miss something vital. The Gumshoe system, which is specifically about investigation, solves this by not requiring checks. If you look, you find it. Of course Pathfinder is not specifically about investigation, but much more about combat. Still, you want the investigator to feel like an investigator, without it derailing every scene with lengthy investigations. If you don't tell the investigator there's nothing suspicious in the room, he's going to spend hours investigating every brick and drawer, which can become a drag on game play. At the same time, players will probably want to feel like Sherlock Holmes, who can walk into a room and immediately know what he has to investigate. Sherlock Holmes doesn't spend hours investigating every crumb he comes across, he immediately zooms in on the important stuff. Not to mention that just like a weak player might want to play a strong barbarian, a player might want to play a good investigator without themselves being Sherlock Holmes. But I wouldn't make the player ask for the clue every room; that too gets tedious. Instead, the GM should be aware there's an investigator in his group and just tell him. "You enter the room, you see a table, a chest, a door on the other side, an angry orc, and, investigator, you notice there's something about that table." You're pointing the investigator to the thing they will want to interact with just like you're pointing the fighter to the thing they will want to interact with.

Someone made a suggestion to do an eldritch archer investigator basically as a guy that calls his shot and hits for a ton of damage and I frankly love that idea.

Me: hmm, 6th level look kinda dead Me in my head: did you say dead level because all I hear was monk dedication Me: Did you say monk dedication because all I heard was... Discombobulate.

I hope that with patience you become really known in YT, way to go pal!

With the multiple knowledge checks from the Reason Rapidly feat is that you can make more than one Recall Knowledge check against the same thing in order to learn more. The DC of the check increases by one step each time so average - hard etc. And you learn the next most commonly known thing about the creature. You have to stop making the checks against the one taget if you fail one, or pass the highest difficulty level.

I feel like a lot of the "meta breaking" complaints in this video is solved by having the DM private message the investigator what the feat calls for. It's a great roleplaying opportunity and it's really not a big problem.

Athletic Strategist (and using INT for the stratagem in general) really feel like the RDJ Sherlock to me, which is pretty cool. Also, the fact that the Prescient Planner/Consumable feats can only be used once (total, not each) in between each time the party can go shopping for gear makes Predictive Purchase a lot more fair in my mind. If they're based in a town they go to every night, yeah, that's cheesy, but if they're in the wilderness for days/weeks at a time, they have to constantly decide whether or not it's worth using, which is pretty cool, and they still have to plan. Implausible Purchase is still...pretty dumb, for sure. I feel like one way to balance it in game would be to track the bulk of the things that they implausibly purchase, and not let them use it once it would have pulled out enough things to bump up their encumbrance? Even then though, they should have given it a fixed number of uses.

I’m at 19:51 in the “That’s Odd” feat. Look at like this, as a D&D guy since 78 I would just Session 0 it as a kind of guiding feat towards discovery possibly within five or ten feet of proximity and pay special attention to PC’s descriptive role play and player movement around the area leaving possibility of ultimate discovery in that OP fashion. Remember, even in P2e, the books are just guides and the GM ultimately makes the rules. Personally, I’m loving the class so far from your video. When it’s over I’ll bust out the book and read through.

Fully dependant on the DM. But I think red herring is fantastic BECAUSE it's for a red herring. "You realize that this is probably false evidence" the DM tells you. That opens up new avenues

My solution for the Predictive purchase (and the prescient feats) is to charge them a 50% mark up on the gold price, that way pre-planning is still important

I enjoy this format, especially after the magus video. Although I would like to see the beginner videos continue with the APG classes.

"Just one more thing...." Isn't that a Colombo quote?

I hope you cover the rest of the apg classes.

Pretty sure just one more thing was a columbo reference but thankyou for sending me back to the trip that was Jackie Chan adventures

Counter point for the predictive purchase; it's way more flavorful and fun than 'alright, we turn around, travel back to town, buy the stupid thing, and travel back'. How else would you handle a character who's main thing is supposed to be having a plan for anything being piloted by a player who is largely interacting in a world they can't really see and didn't grow up in? Could it have been solved through roll-playing? Maybe. But if they get to the point that they need to use it obviously it wasn't, you can't go back and retroactively have had them roll play it more to your liking

Great Guide! Looking forward to the Swashbuckler and Witch… But I also feel a bit lost. There is so much information, but I miss the connections in order to create characters. Perhaps a short 1-2 min summary for each methodology/subclass with key stats, skills and feats and party roles? Or separate videos “How to build a melee Investigator, a ranged one, a face, ….”? not sure….

@Nonat1s

3 жыл бұрын

I plan to make "Beginner's Guides" to these classes as well! I made videos like this covering all of the base classes, so those will come sometime in the future!

I would probably add some clarification that if you make a stike against your Devise a Strategem target this turn, you MUST use that stored d20. It could be interpreted by some that you have a choice from the way you said you "can" use it, but it's a minor nitpick.

@Nonat1s

3 жыл бұрын

It's true, I did misread that. The investigator in my game got around that by casting an offensive cantrip if he rolled a bad Strategem roll, so I never realized it was required.

Whoever wrote this class played the Sherlock Holmes games on steam. Because all of these feats and class features are basically what Sherlock Holmes does in those games. Recreates the scene he basically gets a blurry image of what happened of putting it all together.

When I listen to this I think of Batman. But not current era Batman. I think of the Victorian era animated Batman that was trying to find Jack the Ripper. An investigative savant that can handle themselves in a street fight. My middle daughter has the same… unique thinking patterns of a Sherlock Holmes type and she is loving what I am telling her about this class.

Devise a Strategem is awesome, it rly feels like you are playing a tactian, but don't forget you MUST use the prepared die, you cannot choose do not use it., but thats the cool part about it, because if you rollled low your character calculated that its not the best move to attack in this round, so you do something else instead of wasting an attack

I used Devise a Stratagem and Strategic Strike to absolutely wreck a big baddie with a sling and bullets.

Late to the game, but I'm just catching up on some videos I missed, and I really enjoyed this one. A few things.. 1. I feel like you've made the That's Odd! feat more powerful than it really is. While it does have some flavor, it's almost a waste of a feat because it just accelerates the play of what any semi-experienced player will be doing anyways. 2. I share your frustration for a lot of what I call the "What's the point" feats. It's not that the feats aren't good, it's just a matter of why bother playing an Investigator if you're just going to fast-track most of the role-playing aspects of the class? There seems to be one of these at every level, give or take. Unlike other classes, Investigator is unique in that it's got plenty of it's role-playing baked right into the mechanics. Sidestep too many of those mechanics, and you simply gut the role-play experience in the process. 3. Having said that, I'm a bit shocked you really don't like the Predictive Purchase line of feats. At first glance I can see how you might feel they fit in the "takes the point out of playing" category. But unlike the other feats where it sucks out the role-play, Prescient Planner, etc. actually encourages more role-play. I mean, I guess as a DM you could just shrug your shoulders and let a player pull it out w/o any explanation. But given how much you seem to appreciate the role-playing aspect of things, it seems like it would be right up your ally. At least assuming you encourage more explanation than simply stating, "Oh, good thing I picked this up at the last shop". It's arguably the most fun feat out there for a player to role-play. I've had a couple players take it, and they LOVE giving a quick explanation of the little clues that made them think to pic up a particular item. It's very flavory. It's reminiscent of all those detective shows and movies whenever they do a quick reveal to forward the narrative. It's not broken because they still have to pay for whatever they pull out. And it's not like they can pull out anything beyond appropriate for their level. 4. I realize that you're about a decade my junior, but it's strange that the "Just One More Thing" feat wasn't linked directly to Columbo. It was his catchphrase, and pretty much his main schtick throughout each episode and the series itself. This feat itself is literally lifted straight from that concept, with the flavor soaked in the essence of those moments. I know others have mentioned this already, so I'll leave it with this.. I strongly encourage you to go watch the show. The entire series is available on Peacock. Each episode is anywhere from 130-150 minutes long, so about the length of a movie. If you're a fan of detective-type shows, and Sherlock Holmes-style stories, I think you'll like it. Also, because it started in '71, ran nearly a decade, took a decade hiatus, then came back for a few more seasons throughout the 90's, it's fascinating to see the show changed.

This is the better format IMO.

@Nonat1s

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you for the input! That's incredibly helpful!

@Nonat1s I think that the "that's odd" feat can work really well IF it is simply a new way to present clues. Normally it might be a crack in the wall that they may or may not investigate. With "that's odd" they might realize that they need to search a desk where they find a vague or poorly written letter which is difficult to interpret. Instead of explaining the clues this feat can simply be used to help them find the clues. That changes the way you present the mystery but it still leaves the players with the job of putting those clues together and role-playing going to the right places and talking to the right people. Also, they still have to figure out the right things to say or ask.

@marcperez2598

3 жыл бұрын

That's Odd doesnt negate checks, just informs the player that their is somethung that they should check. So its more of a tutorial

What I really like about the Investigator feats that give free information is that they allow for players to play characters smarter than them much more naturally. Investigator doesn’t have a ton tied into Int like a Wizard does (a Wizard’s high Int could be justified as mainly pertaining to magic knowledge and being able to research and remember a bunch of stuff, things easily handled by rolls), so these “freebies” allow this high Int character to be clever and know what to do, even if the player doesn’t (especially if the player is new to TTRPGs).

The "Just One More Thing" reference is not to Jackie Chan Adventures, but rather the same thing JCA was referrencing; that being the detective serial Columbo.

@Nonat1s

3 жыл бұрын

I've lived 25 years not knowing that they were referencing something else. My life is a lie.

@HenshinFanatic

3 жыл бұрын

Check the following link. A decently sized montage of Columbo's many "one more thing(s)". kzread.info/dash/bejne/g6x20MOGd7OYkbw.html

With the Alchemical Sciences, when you go to level 2 can you now prepare level 2 elixirs and tools as well?

Some people like to play the game for the RP aspect and some people like their games to be hard. I am personally not a masochistic tabletop player, so I am a fan of features that make the game more fun, easy to play, or accessible. Those seem to be the parts you got the most spicy about lol

I like both styles

Hmm ... how about using Hero Points with That's Odd? That way it's a more scarce ressource, but a player with good roleplay/a generous GM can still probably use it more than once per session. Red Herring could be tied to a secret Recall Knowledge check - with a success the GM tells you there's something fishy, with a crit he tells you the true clue, and with a crit failure the false clue might even be dangerous. If you are really against Predictive Purchase, you could also ask for a Recall Knowledge check each time (maybe in the form of a short flashback just for roleplay fun) - if it's a failure, you still got the item, but you need the full minute to retrieve it, making it a bit more harder to use in battle.

Predictive Purchase, still restricted by Bulk calculations and coinage on hand. Within reason having looked over the equipment list, this another Session 0 discussion and the GM ultimately makes the rules. I like it.

@ancientbluedragon1014

2 жыл бұрын

Also the fact that you can only use it once!!! Then you have to purchase goods to be able to use it again. So no multiple times during the adventure unless the players are constantly in a town at which point who cares.