Just because there is a tallest tree doesn't mean there is a maximally tall tree.

@skagenpige88

Ай бұрын

By analyzing the interplay between forces, a team of biologists led by George Koch of Northern Arizona University calculated the theoretical maximum tree height, or the point at which opposing forces balance out and a tree stops growing. This point lies somewhere between 400 and 426 feet (122 and 130 m).

@robertvirnig638

Ай бұрын

@@skagenpige88 I immediately thought of several ways to make his findings irrelevant. What if I grow the tree in a large space station? In any case, the fact that there is a theoretical maximum doesn't mean that the tree actually exists. In this case, it doesn't.

@skagenpige88

Ай бұрын

@@robertvirnig638 Even if you add a tree to microgravity in space there still is a limit you can calculate....and it dont prove him wrong, it just puts up a dif setting where trees cant live by themself without our help. It would be as silly as saying if we add a treehouse on top its a "bigger tree".

"I don't know, is the wrong answer." Lol, the continued hubris of these theists is mind-boggling. What a clown.

@sirbarryvee-eight6485

Ай бұрын

I go one further - I don't know and I don't care. The universe and life exists, we're here. How it got here is irrelevant. We can pontificate about it or we can get along with our lives and try to make the world a better place. For the theists who can't grasp that, I'll put it simply. I drive a Subaru. I don't know how it was made in the factory. I enjoy the car, it's versatile, comfortable, reliable and drives well and suits my needs. If I went to the Subaru factory and I was shown how the car was made, my opinion would then be that I enjoy the car, it's versatile, comfortable, reliable and drives well and suits my needs.

@sadderwhiskeymann

Ай бұрын

@@sirbarryvee-eight6485 *to the Sunday Subaru study factory 🤣🤣

'Look at the tallest tree... therefore god.' 🙂

@quotedotes

Ай бұрын

I imagine their internal monologue as more of: "There can be a tallest tree, therefore GAAAAAAAAWWWWWDDDDD, you crummy atheists! Checkmate!! 🤡 🤡 🤡 "

@kyleepratt

Ай бұрын

For most of the history of the universe or the earth itself, there in fact was no twist tree, because there were no trees for all that time. Also, even to young earth Creationists, there were at least a couple days with no trees, therefore no tallest tree.

“The marbles are an even number.” “How do you know?” “A voice in my head told me.” “Not convincing to me. I’ll wait until they’re counted.”

"I don't know is the wrong answer." he says, as his script gets interrupted by an unexpected answer 🤣

the most confusing statement for theists is "I dont know and I'm OK with that"

@bodricthered

Ай бұрын

Got to say, I don't agree with the second bit, I'm just less happy about accepting bad arguments than staying in 'I don't knowville'

The really frustrating thing about the caller is that he’s equating “the greatest,” with “INFINITELY great,” but that just doesn’t follow. It’s like saying that the tallest tree has to be infinitely tall, and if it’s not infinitely tall then we have no basis to judge what the quality of “tallness” even means. What if the “greatest” being in the universe is George from Ohio, who’s just an all around stand up nice guy? How does he know there’s any being greater than George?

@BaronVonQuiply

Ай бұрын

Apparently that same perfectly rational reasoning is why you've probably seen multiple World's Strongest Mans. As it turns out, since there's no actual way of determining what that requires that without getting a lot more specific about what you mean, I am the World's Strongest Man. That is to say George logically may indeed be the greatest being, hell, almost certainly is by some metric.

@kyleepratt

Ай бұрын

I bet there was a point in history where 2 trees were the same height and also taller than every other tree. So there were ptobably 2 tallest trees for a while. Does that mean 2 equally great gods is a valid option?

Wait, I’m autistic-how did we get dragged into this? 😂

@angrydoggy9170

Ай бұрын

Apparently you guys ruined religion for everybody else. Or something like that. I’m struggling to see the point as well and I’m a full blown ADHD bloke.

@GuitarGuy057

Ай бұрын

​@@angrydoggy9170 Fuck, I'm both and I'm just misanthropically rolling my eyes.

@supermandad9172

Ай бұрын

My aunt has tics too

@breakfastramen

Ай бұрын

Right?? I wish someone had told my autistic ass before 2005 that I was supposed to be a new atheist, because I was singing in my church choir and that definitely would have saved me a ton of time deconstructing over the next decade or so.

@RussianPrimeMinister

Ай бұрын

I assume the moron meant agnostic. He didn't have a particularly good grasp of any of these concepts, it's not difficult to believe that he'd flub a word that badly.

Christians used to argue that everything that exists has a cause, but they changed to arguing that whatever begins to exist has a cause as a preemptive response to the charge that if God exists he would also require a cause. They adopted a more defensible position in the face of a common rejoinder. Atheists largely conforming to the definition of lacking belief in a god or gods is much the same. We've adopted a more defensible position in recognition of the difficulty of proving the negative.

@tye64

Ай бұрын

It was also in part recognition that if you have 10 random theists in a room, they'll have at least 11 mutually incompatible definitions for a god.

"But don't you ever just look at the tallest trees?" 😂😂😂

@kyleepratt

Ай бұрын

There's a hypothetical highest height a tree can get to on earth, therefore a tree must be exactly that height right now!

Just because there is a Tallest TREE doesn't mean there won't be a taller tree some day!!

@Sc00terider

Ай бұрын

I'm more like saying "Just because there is the tallest tree doesn't mean that it is the first cause tree!"

@noodlekeeper5150

Ай бұрын

​@Sc00terider We don't know that there is a weaker God that created the world and is beholden to an even greater God. Cause we don't even know if A God exists.

@angrydoggy9170

Ай бұрын

And if you cut it down another tree will be the tallest.

@angrydoggy9170

Ай бұрын

@@noodlekeeper5150The bible itself says there’s different gods. Although it does say that the god of the bible is the best one.

@noodlekeeper5150

Ай бұрын

@angrydoggy9170 I'm shocked. A holy book proclaims its God is the best? : ) My argument is just that we don't actually know that's true cause we don't know God is even real.

Remember just because you make the greatest claims about your God doesn't prove he exists. In fact it gives rise to why he can't exist.

@AdmiralBison

Ай бұрын

If this god actually exists as prominantely claimed there wouldn't be any arguments for its existence at all. There is no arguments necessary needed for existence of animals, seas and planets, but the god claim needs it.

@scamchan

Ай бұрын

@@AdmiralBison One would think that a GOD that wants worship would show up for it.

caller was hesitant to just provide their argument because they know it's 💩

The instant the caller started arguing against the statement “I don’t know”, I knew he wasn’t an honest interlocutor, and he was an idiot. Didn’t need to listen any further. Don’t dare challenge somebody’s position on what’s going on inside their own head. That is beyond dishonest.

I love how Denis is always seeing through the bullshit

Given that under Einstein's theory of special relativity the length of objects moving at relativistic speeds undergoes a contraction along the dimension of motion, there may be many different tallest trees depending on one's frame of reference.

Tldr of Alejandro's argument: [fingers in ears] "My mythology is the right one and YOU CAN'T SAY IT'S NOT!" [proceed to stamp feet and run away yelling more incoherent wankery]

This clown had never heard of the gumball analogy until he called the Atheist Experience, he's just trying to turn it around.

All first cause arguments are going to have special pleading to them.

@bodricthered

Ай бұрын

Yeah but you generally have to tunnel under the argument from ignorance to find it.

@christianblevins3802

Ай бұрын

@@bodricthered Sure.

7:39 if you want to skip to the first really infuriating part LOL "I don't know is automatically the wrong answer"

It's apples to oranges because the tallest tree can be empirically measured, but maximal greatness cannot.

Did the hosts ever call out this "new atheist" crap the caller was spewing? I don't recall they did and it was a foundation of most of his arguments.

The caller missed something in his trees and causality analogy. His argument that everything has a cause would be analogous to every tree has a taller tree. With those two statements, not knowing anything else about trees or causality, you could not conclude that there's a tallest tree or un-caused cause, you'd have to demonstrate that. We know that there are a finite amount of trees and that height is one dimension so we can conclude that there must be a point on that dimension that represents the tallest tree. We do not know, however, that causes are finite, and this is where the analogy breaks down

There is a tallest tree because we have defined our search criteria as such. There is a maximally great god in the same way - it is defined as maximally great. The difference is that we actually see and can measure trees so it's possible to find the current tallest tree, and a god, maximally great or not, still has yet to be found. If we had both gods and trees, we can argue about whether there is a maximally great one, but we can't ascribe a preselection criterion to something that hasn't been DEMONSTRATED to exist.

HOLY SHIT! I didn't know Denis Loubet was with your group! AWESOME! Absolutely love your art, man! (swoons)

@brucebaker810

Ай бұрын

Check out oooold Non Prophets. Podcast or archive. He was on 100 or so episodes. (They read my letter while recording during a hurricane.) It was Denis, Matt, and Jeff. (Jeff also DnD artist).

The Wettest thing was my grandma's turkey stuffing hehehee

Speaking very literally, yes, it *is* possible for a tallest tree to NOT exist. This caller was crazy smug too, he lost the mask a few different times 🤣🤣

Alejandro is equating "tallest", a descriptor that CAN be measured, with "greatest", an opinion which cannot be measured.

His educators shouldn’t have constantly affirmed what a clever boy he was.

New Atheist? Is that with less calories? I prefer classic atheist. It had more flavor! lol

@Ghalaghor_McAllistor

Ай бұрын

Much healthier than believers who are just full of empty calories.

@AdmiralBison

Ай бұрын

Not sure, it may have to do with historical resurgence in Atheism, but frankly I don't care. There is nothing new about dis/Non-belief in bs Religious god claims.

@brianfergus839

17 күн бұрын

As soon as you hear them say “New Atheism”, you know they’re trying to shift the burden of proof.

I don't get his argument. Is the tallest tree god? The tallest tree still needs a cause.

Two trees could be the same height.

callers who regurgitate tired and pointless logical arguments aren't the worst, but they're pretty close. What a mindnumbing waste of breath.

I’m sure the caller’s argument went over great at sunday school.

""My Maximally Great God Is...Great...Maximally!" Since you presented no evidence for the existence of your god, you god can be considered imaginary. This means your Maximally Imaginary God Is...Imaginary...Maximally!

@BaronVonQuiply

Ай бұрын

I like how they've gone from pretending to have minute details about their god down to _"Whatever the biggest thing this, that's what I worship. I have no idea what it is, but something has to be biggest so HA!"_

Argument from Thats a Really Big Tree

Dude, "greatness" may not be an object, but it is most certainly a noun.

Can somebody sign Alejandro to the Olympic track and field squad please? I mean, with leaps like that, he's a shoe in for a few golds.

He has convinced me. God is the tallest tree - not the most massive, not the widest - and we should search the planet until we find it.

@XEndlessSteelX

Ай бұрын

Oh so that is why they keep using the "Look at the trees!" argument!

Hello? I have counted myself as an athiest sine at least the 90s when a sister gave me a subscriptption to the US Athiests magazine, but I had not believed in god since at least 1972 or so when i was at least 10-12 years old. First cause arguments really were among those Ideas that I thought were really stupid.

The I don’t know answer isn’t the “right” answer nor is it the “wrong” answer. The I don’t know answer is given when there isn’t enough information to conclude that x either exists or does not exist.

I'm not sure why this dude thought ...It must exist, so it does exist, would be a great argument, but he 100% wrong.

It sounded like Alejandro was basically going down the Alvin Plantinga Ontological Argument path or at least trying to.

And since theres a tall tree, we can infer that there's a Tree Fairy who loves and protects all the saplings. If not...how did the tree survive to be biggest? Checkmate, afairyists!

@brianfergus839

17 күн бұрын

HERETIC!! It’s not a Tree FAIRY - it’s a Tree ELF!!!

Allejandro was deliberately offensive from the jump. Deliberately dense too? Likely.

I've held every Iron Maiden record in my hands. I can definitely say I've held greatness. But that doesn't mean a god exists.

@oldcountryboy

Ай бұрын

What did you do with all that old vinyl People pay good money for that

@oldcountryboy

Ай бұрын

My buddy had every kiss record He had 10 copies of each record And he had a lot of other vinyl he stored them in his attic Ended up ruining the whole collection He probably had a couple of 1000 records😢😢

@petervargo1696

Ай бұрын

@@oldcountryboy I still have them! Greatness still resides in my home. Bummer your buddy lost all his records!

@BaronVonQuiply

Ай бұрын

One day at the end of the 90s I was at a friends house when their kid asked if he could listen to _Can I Play With Magnets_

@petervargo1696

Ай бұрын

@@BaronVonQuiply awesome. Did you ever show him Fear of the Duck?

Alejandro is very confused, and incredibly annoying

I have been an atheist since my first baptist bible school class in around 1972, when I was 7. I agreed to go because they promised candy-coated popcorn balls and other treats and gifts. I sat there listening to people talking about crazy things and found myself looking around the room to see if anyone else was confused. I was baffled that anyone actually believed this stuff. Here's something that I do believe; religious belief is a psychological disorder.

@benjaminmadrigalperez9010

Ай бұрын

Oh no, no, no. Psicological disorders are naturally ocurring. A religious belief have to be taught.

@angrydoggy9170

Ай бұрын

It’s not necessarily a disorder. If anything it’s programmed behaviour in most cases. Now if we’re talking about people buying into a new religion (at least new for them personally), that mostly seems to have a basis in some mental weakness or vulnerability. Some desperate quest for salvation and security from personal fears and doubts.

@johnosborne3187

Ай бұрын

@@angrydoggy9170 If a child is abused for years and then becomes a serial killer, do they have a psychological disorder? Is Stockholm Syndrome a psychological disorder? This is simply a different way to accomplish the same effect. Would you prefer condition over disorder? That's fine with me. Religious believers have the same "condition" as Ted Bunny and Patty Hearst. Religious believers have, and do, steal, lie, and kill as a result of their condition.

@brianfergus839

17 күн бұрын

I think you’ve got a point, but don’t try to make it on an Atheism call in show because they’ll jump down your throat defending the sanity of theists. I really don’t understand why the hosts are so aggressively against the idea of religion being a form of insanity.

There isn't necessarily a first cause, because the universe may be infinite.

@brucebaker810

Ай бұрын

* Eternal. Eternal regards time. Infinite regards (theoretical) numbers. Or size, but that's numbers too.

What if there are many great supernatural beings and it wasn't the greatest that created this universe? That definition doesn't work.

One of the problems Alejandro obviously has is the lack of a dictionary.

Trees are finite, time might not be. End of story.

we really need better education in this country... this is just sad

Yes it's ad hominem, but that voice...something about the tone...so aggravating.

@waynedexter

Ай бұрын

How’d you post a comment 6 days ago on a video that was just uploaded today?

@waynedexter

Ай бұрын

I agree on the voice. But with that said I’d be less aggravated with his tone if he made sense, just a modicum even

@ornerylurker8296

Ай бұрын

It’s only ad hominem in terms of standards of debate. On an interpersonal and social level, you can tell a lot about a person and their thoughts by their tone of voice and inflection. This exact combination of subtle, subconscious cues is what we like to call “sleazy!”

Alejandro... are there fossils on Mars? You dont know? WRONG ANSWER.

That's odd, I have been an atheist since I was about 8 years old, I am now kicking and screaming to 72, so this dummy as usual is wrong, he always makes these statements and is always wrong.

What do you suppose the units of 'greatness' are? How does one measure greatness objectively? If you can't measure greatness objectively and empirically then you can't know if something is 'greater' than something else.

I dont know may not be able to be the empirically shown answer when we eventually discover or uncover the truth of the claim. But it does describe the most rational answer at this point from this entity. What he needs to appeal to it is a way to test it. Even just theoretically with predictive power...

I’m picturing Alejandro sitting alone at nights “smoking” on his liquorice pipe drinking apple juice from a whiskey glass smelling his own farts thinking he’s the best philosopher alive.

Last night I poured the Maximally greatest pint unfortunately it does not exist anymore.

"Greatness" is a subjective value judgement, not a tangible quality. Does the greatest pizza have pineapple or pepperoni?

@Nuclearburrit0

Ай бұрын

Yes, it does have pineapple or pepperoni

@brucebaker810

Ай бұрын

No.

@kyleepratt

Ай бұрын

To me, it does have pineapple. Also, a maximally great god to me would love queer people and help them. Does that mean God has to definitionally love and support queer folks? If so, cool!

Alejandro took the “look at the trees” argument and put his own misguided spin on it.

How do you determine the tallest tree? Do you say, well, there has to be a tallest tree, I'm thinking of a tree right now and I'm defining that tree to be taller than all the other trees, therefore that is the tallest tree? Or do you actually go out and measure trees? This argument is just philosophical word-starting-with-master. The caller inadvertently made a good point in saying he's talking about abstract concepts - yeah, exactly. Have fun hypothesising about the abstract, and let us know when you want to start talking about what's actually concretely going on in reality. Also, there doesn't need to be 1 tallest tree, there might be 2 or more equally tall trees. If you 2 trees grow into one another, is that 1 or 2 trees, and if 2, how do you determine which is which? Should we include leaves in our measurement, or just branches? If there's a strong wind blowing that pushes a branch upwards, does that change the height of the tree at that moment? Even with measurements, we have problems pointing to the thing that is furthest along that line. But also, causes are not measurements, so that's disanalogous. You can't say "there is a tallest tree, therefore there must be a first cause" - that just doesn't follow.

Alejandro knows for a fact exactly how the universe was created billions of years ago... 🤣

I listen in order to learn. What seems to be quite obvious is the iq level of the believer. In this arena. Cheers Mike

Can there be two uncaused causes? Yes. Why not?

I don't have to know the answer to be unable to deny claims about the answer. Magic does not exist, it cannot be the solution to any problem.

I can think of much "greater" gods than yahweh. They would say that slavery has always been wrong, and they would never demand sacrifices or genocide, and they would not have favored one race and one gender to the detriment of the rest of the world.

@amyv8416

Ай бұрын

They would also never allow harm to come to children in any way at all. At least an all powerful, morally superior god wouldn't.

@BaronVonQuiply

Ай бұрын

Any god worthy of being worshiped would never allow it

@Arkloyd

Ай бұрын

@@amyv8416 That would be nice, but the "god" we "have" now (The god that would be if such a thing existed…) loves nothing more than causing massive unneeded suffering all over the Earth, otherwise Reality would be a lot different.

@Arkloyd

Ай бұрын

@@BaronVonQuiply Any being worthy of worship would refuse said worship. Exactly as you said. Only a narcissistic sociopath would torture someone that fails to acknowledge their existence. It takes a psychopath to do that while also doing its level best to hide from the beings it demands the acknowledgement from.

@amyv8416

Ай бұрын

@@Arkloyd I don't believe such a being exists, but if it does, it's a genocidal, infanticidal, misogynistic, racist monster. Certainly nothing worthy of respect.

Did the tallest tree just exist or did it come from a seed?

Alejandro, if you assert the the first cause had to always exist, I could do the same thing for naturalism... 🤷🏻‍♂

There is a tallest tree, there isn't necessarily a maximally tall tree.

This was just Anselm.

Ontology v Epistemology. Ontology is what is. There are either an odd or even number of gumballs. Epistemology is what I know/believe. I can know, or not know, if the number is odd. I can know or not know the number is even.

Just another script reading caller getting hung up on semantics.

@kaihedgie1747

Ай бұрын

And it's the worst of the bunch on this show

People like Alejandro always strike me as being terrible losers at trivia games.

It's like asking is there a tallest leprechaun.

This is the Canadian Catholic right? Sounds just like him early on.

"I don't know" is not the "wrong" answer, it's just not an answer. Because we don't know what the answer is. That's what we're saying. You're trying to say you do know the answer, and we want you to explain why you think it's that answer. Just because we don't know the answer doesn't make your answer right. It's the gumball analogy. I don't know if there are an odd or even number of gumballs, but that doesn't mean you're right or justified in saying there's an even number, and it also doesn't follow from that that there's exactly 82 gumballs.

The caller fails to understand that the most that can ever be properly concluded from any logical argument for a deity is that the deity in question exists only subjectively, in the mind of the individual believer and nowhere else. Any such argument that concludes that a deity objectively exists, that it is part of objective reality, the reality that we all share, necessarily commits an equivocation fallacy that renders its logic invalid. This occurs because such arguments must, at some point and in some way, define what their deity is, an entirely subjective act. Subjective existence and objective existence are two entirely different things. Deities have to be defined because they cannot be described.

"great" is just a word. We could create another word that included other concepts (e.g., smelling bad, being purple, speaking French, and actually existing). Could we then argue that there must be a being which actually embodied this concept?

I guess theists have a handbook with all the stock arguments he was going through.

If you play to play so many word gymnastics to 'prove' God, that should tell you something about the objectivity and reality of your God.

I wonder if Alejandro knows what a 'pompous douche' sounds like.

@sam7bam

Ай бұрын

He should listen back to this and find out.

The tallest tree compared to a first cause doesn’t make sense because the tallest tree was at one point, not the tallest tree, and will not remain the tallest tree forever. A first cause is a first cause period. The first cause argument is ridiculous anyway because you have to prove that a god is real, then you have to prove that it was the first cause and not something else.

Well it's obvious to me who has lost their marbles if they ever had them to begin with.

What if there is s first cause and it has nothing to do with YHWH. What proof does anyone have that a first mover has logical attributes? What if it was _just_ a non sentient, pathetic, ordinary, primordial atom.

It is funny, no apologist talks about "maximally great" anymore 🙄

To have "the greatest god" you have to have other gods, and if multiple gods exist then multiple gods exist, so then infinite gods exists, and if that is the case why are we using monkeys on the typewriters?

I don't think the caller knows.......

@6:40 "I don't know is automatically the wrong answer" So Alejandro is talking physical realities versus knowledge but fails to state this beforehand. @10:56 It is very important to remember that in the discussion of whether a jar containing marbles has either an even or odd number of marbles there is another answer which is "I lost my marbles." Sorry - had to. By saying because there is a first cause therefore god and that god is "maximally great" Alejandro is forgetting the concept of evolution whereby extreme complexity can flow from the simplest environments.

What if the are a whole bunch of tallest trees that are the same height? Also, it's dumb to compare trees to gods. We have evidence that trees exist. Not so with god The caller needs to go back to school and retake philosophy 101.

I really hate these pseudo intellectual word games theists play. I can't think of many things dumber than "I don't know is automatically wrong"

Wtf? Autism? The caller said a bunch of nothing.

Hes not wrong beCAUSE of the voice. But the voice is ... wrong.

Ah, solopsists. The emo edgelords of philosophy

Sigh tallest tree guys are the worst.

An absolute parade of baseless assertions from the caller

I think they just get on the show to speak nonsense, and take up time.

This trol again.

All gods are kinda real. Man felt the invisible power and influence of Time; cloaked it in his own traits and called it a god. The most unyielding power in the universe, invisible to the eye yet visible all around; an eternal force that builds up and tears down all with apathy.⏳

@scamchan

Ай бұрын

A kinda GOD?