Since I have made this video, I have found that a simple Elmers' glue stick is the best adhesive for making the paper envelope and for attaching the bullet to the paper. It holds better, and is more convenient to apply.

@barrybowden5778

5 жыл бұрын

Mark, The maker for the temate you mentioned emailed me and said he no longer makes these. Where can we find a new maker for the forms?

@kevinroberson1985

Жыл бұрын

I purchased one from a place in Europe for a 44 dragoon it took over a month to get it. That was the time we were going through the COVID 19 . I discovered if you take a tapered reamer bit and a small drill bit to drill hole first and then ream hole with the tapered reamer to desired hole withe and a dowel rod and chuck it in a drill and sand or file it down to the right taper and put a knob on it works very well and saves you some money. And when you make your paper cartridge please nitrate your end cap of paper and let the sheet of paper dry then cut them out and glue to the end and you will have no ignition problems . Believe me these paper cartridge makers are not hard to make at all just take your time and you will have something you made your self and be proud of for years to come.

Drinking beer and watching your videos, so relaxing... keep up the good work and greetings from Croatia!!

@erasgonehistoricalmolds2400

5 жыл бұрын

Legionar, Thanks for the kind words and encouragement.

@erasgonehistoricalmolds2400

3 жыл бұрын

@Cornelius Sulla My understanding is that the powder charge was compressed and the envelope was coated in something similar to nitro cellulose. Not truly waterproof, but it did offer some water resistance.

Its a shame Cliff Manley passed away. I wanted to get one but had the usual poor person money flow problems and was planning on getting one. Its a shame, because that former looks like work of art! Not only does it make nice compact cartridges, they look incredibly packed too. That alone cuts down on fumbling trying to stuff them in, trying to make them fit like other solutions I've found. Thanks for the excellent video Mark!

I’m no stranger with a dremel, I made my load lever to fit smooth with the frame when in the closed position.

Hi Mark. I received your .44 mould and cast a fair few heads. The mould performs excellently. I am going to make up some paper cartridges tomorrow to shoot in my new Ruger Old Army. Thanks. Rob (UK).

@erasgonehistoricalmolds2400

7 жыл бұрын

Thank you sir! I glad to hear the mold is working well for you. Let us know how your cartridges work out.

Reminds me of the huge main battery guns on old battleships. They would throw bags of powder behind the shell, then close the breach. The canvas bags just burned up with the powder.

I like this video. I will make a couple of comments. Most of the 44's would hold 40 grains of powder With A Round Ball. The conical took up more room and reduced the total possible charge to a max of 35 grains (excluding the Walker which would hold 60). The armies on both sides had supply problems and it was decided to reduce the amount of powder per charge. 25/26 grains was determined to provide the best combination of power and accuracy, and also provided a savings on amount of powder used (don't know where Colt came up with 18 grains). One BP shooter recently shot a bunch of loads over a chrono. Interestingly, he found that the 30 grain loads gave the most velocity per grain used. Very minimal increase in speed above 30 grains. He was also testing load compression and determined that consistent compression was important for consistent performance. All that aside, it appears you are using a template to cut the paper. Sizing that template more closely would eliminate the need to trim to length. Another shooter I've seen uses a similar technique without the square block. He puts the bottom circle on the inside of the cylinder. Looks like that is better. And last, I've been wondering about using flash paper instead of nitrated paper. If it is strong enough it won't leave any residue like nitrated paper.

@erasgonehistoricalmolds2400

5 жыл бұрын

Kirk, thanks for your comments. We have tried sizing the template. However, it is very difficult to precisely position it at its upper end, which is essential to get the proper length. Cutting it at the prescribed point ensures the proper length. As far as the base piece some were makers wrapped them inside, some outside. Some were discs some were square pieces. It can be up to the maker. Attaching them on the outside is much easier. I've never used flash paper so I cant comment of its strength. But it is best to have paper with strength enough to take the compression the bullet when it is seated.

Great looking die! Seems like a real time saver!

Mark, just checked out your sales site and impressed by the 44 and 36 conical molds you are selling and will get one of each from you ASAP. FYI and all interested in actual loads for revolver combustibles, on page 10 of "ROUND BALL TO RIMFIRE" Part 3, (Dean S, Thomas) the actual combustible cartridge powder used "Hazard Cartridge Powder" is described by an Ordnance Officer who dissected some of Colt's combustibles in 1860. It was an extremely fine grained Hazard Sporting Black Powder, probably a bit finer grained than even modern Swiss 4Fg black powder. From a Uberti Remington Army .44, 8" barrel, I test-fired 215 gr conicals over 22 grs (1.4cc volume measure) Swiss 4Fg, and was getting an impressive 940 fps average mean MV! (960 hi / 920 lo). That fine-grain powder is very potent, shoots tight groups, and burns relatively clean. By hot dipping the bullets in a beeswax/coconut oil (90/10) mixture, the Uberti's bore was still incredibly bright even after 4 consecutive cylinders (24 shots!). Your bullet is MUCH better than the replica brass mould bullet I was using, yet even that poor quality bullet gave impressive 25 Yard accuracy. For anyone wanting to try the 4Fg load, I recommend replacing stock Uberti nipples with good aftermarket nipples having very tiny flash holes, as this considerably reduces back pressure and fouling, which practically eliminates cap jams! I'm using 'Track of the Wolf" nipples.

@erasgonehistoricalmolds2400

7 жыл бұрын

Thanks for informative comment. I've wondered about the actual grain size of the powder that was used. As you no from Roundball to Rimfire, the formulas used by the many contractors varied wildly. Some of them even used a compressed powder charge, almost like a pellet that was glued to the bottom of the projectle. Maybe some of those impressed charges also started as a fine grained powder. Some of the arsenal bullets were dipped in "paraffin" as a lubricant. Although I'm not sure if the paraffin they mentioned is what we are familiar with today.

@ghgghgyuhkljjijijui

7 жыл бұрын

How about telephone book page paper for cartridges?Have you tried it?Good video and info thanks.

@erasgonehistoricalmolds2400

7 жыл бұрын

I don't see why it would not. I know one fellow who uses newsprint which would be about the same. Most of the originals that I have seen used plain brown paper about the thickness of news print, but a little stiffer.

Pyrodex and black powder have different volumes, meaning a 25 grain charge will weigh drastically different between the two. Just saying, if your going to weigh the charge you should measure it by volume first for accuracy

@erasgonehistoricalmolds2400

2 жыл бұрын

Grains are a unit of weight. Powder measures only approximate weights. I use a scale to determine the grain weight of a particular charge, and from that I can get that weight's volume. The volume can then be used for to measure BP substitutes such as Pyrodex or Triple Seven.

Thanks, Mark. I've wanted to do this for a long time, but all the methods I saw weren't exactly Kosher. I got your mold a couple weeks ago, made two formers and have turned out some nice cartridges. Still waiting for the former from Russ, though.

Super tool!

It looks cool

Nice video. Do you happen to have any information on the Johnston of Johnston & Dow? Like where he was from or anything? I have looked around online a bit but haven't found anything. Johnston is my grandmother's maiden name, and it's not super common outside of Scotland from what I've seen. Thanks alot.

Is there any blueprints of the cartridge former out there? I can make my own easy enough, but not sure what dimensions to use. Great looking cartridges.

Mark, Great video! Also loved the vid on bullet lubes ( I always used beeswax with a little neatsfoot oil but its nice to see the original ordinance dept recipes). I ordered the .44 and .36 Johnston&Dow molds and the Smith mold and all were delivered yesterday. Look great and cant wait to get casting. I agree with the previous comment about showing how to make the cartridge former (not too sure about how to drill a tapered hole but there must be a bit out there). Too bad about Cliff. Also regarding the paper to use I found an old thread where a guy talked about using MEAD brand tracing paper and he said it burned a lot faster and more completely than even nitrated cigarette paper. He didn't specify if he nitrated the tracing paper so im going to try both and see what happens. If anyone is looking for potassium nitrate look at H. Depot / local hardware store for the Spectracide brand stump remover. Its pure potassium nitrate according to the Spectracide website. Thanks again

@erasgonehistoricalmolds2400

6 жыл бұрын

Thanks Zach. I'm glad the molds got there so fast. The hole in the block was made with a taper reamer and then the mandrel was turned to the same dimensions. We need to find someone who can make these quickly and inexpensively for mass production. That is not a project I can take on right now, unfortunately!

@zachpowell5048

6 жыл бұрын

Mark Hubbs Mark I have your email address I will contact you soon about this. I might be able to do it. Let's talk.

@erasgonehistoricalmolds2400

6 жыл бұрын

Yes, please give me a shout.

@chaecoco2

6 жыл бұрын

I found best results with magicians flash paper. It is nitrocellulose and burns completely. No residue in the chambers to clog your nipples. Duco cement is a nitrocellulose base cement and also burns up. Good combination. I, like yourself, and trying to figure out how to cut a tapered hole.

With cigarette wrappers and a Lee mold, you can seat a 200 gr conical over 35gr powder easily in a Pietta.

@carls.6746

5 жыл бұрын

any 44 pietta? like the 1858 rem?

Wishing I had placed an order for one of these. Have to figure out how to make cartridges.

@DirtyFrigginHarry

4 жыл бұрын

Dustin Winegar is producing a paper cartridge former right now. He's only making them in .44 for now but he just announced it a week ago and he's selling them for 10 dollars

That does make a beautiful cartridge...... The cartridges i make for my pistols work,but they sure not very pretty. Lol

Mark, do u also sell the former and block for the cartridges ? Also, fyi, there is a glue called Water Glass that is combustible that was used back in the day for sealing the cartridges. Charles.

@greywuuf

5 жыл бұрын

Water glass is NOT considered combustible, it is the opposite. It is a very high temp resistant material used to manufacture boilers and forges. It is currently used by wood stove guys to bind pearlite together to make a ceramic like insulating liner for high temp applications (ones where the temps are high enough that steel is short lived and burns away)....also it cures at high temperature into a silca glass.....an abrasive.....I don't want it anywhere Near my barrel.

@andy2c0

3 жыл бұрын

CapandBall sells them in his store

@charlesc.plumley9755

3 жыл бұрын

@@greywuuf Percussion revolvers, while not truly muzzleloaders, are similar, as they load from the front of the cylinder. Typical paper cartridges for revolvers differ from the robust percussion rifle cartridges, in that the cartridge is inserted into the chamber whole, and rammed into place. Revolver cartridges were often combustible, and the bullet is typically exposed, with the paper cartridge glued, typically with sodium silicate, a high temperature glue that was widely available, as it was also used to preserve fresh eggs. Many examples were tapered, into a cone, being wider at the bullet than at the rear. Some commercially produced cartridges, such as those by Hayes of England, were also equipped with a small cloth tear tab at the front to assist in the removal of the protective outer layer prior to loading the cartridge.[3][8] Sodium Silicate is called Waterglass, or Water Glass.

@greywuuf

3 жыл бұрын

@@charlesc.plumley9755 I am well aware of how a cap and ball revolver functions and I am also aware that sodium silicate is refered to as water .... It is also used to destroy engines so that they are not salvageable. Everything I said is correct and I still dont want it in my barrel ( where it would end up when fired from the chamber) ...and it is still not combustible.

Hi Mark, me again, glad I've found your channel. How would you carry the combustible cartridges? Would they be loose in a line cartridge box or would they all be the prepackaged containers in 6's?

@erasgonehistoricalmolds2400

5 жыл бұрын

Alistar, just about all cartridges, commercial and military, were carried in bundles of 6. Some were in fancy patent blocks, some simple folded into paper and tied. You can get more data than you probably want in my KZread video entitled: "Making Civil War Revolver Cartridge Bundles"

@barrybowden5778

5 жыл бұрын

@@erasgonehistoricalmolds2400 there is a maker making period correct ordinance boxes. Have to get on my computer to link it here. But I may try my hand at making some ... not that hard.

because the hull is made for a specific volume, not a specific weight, and powder density can vary a little, you actually should measure your powder by volume. Also you will have neater results if you glue the end cap, instead of the end of the hull, before applying the end cap. But I give it a thumb up. And yeah, Elmer's glue stick works nicely. Personally I think using gum arabic is sort of classy. Don't know what they used back in the day... hide glue, maybe? But if you have ever smoked hand rolled cigarettes, you know that gum arabic burns very cleanly. Usually it is sold as a powder and you mix it with water as needed. It is used by cigar rolling hobbyists and I guess professional rollers, too.

When loaded dos it break the paper and would this be beneficial for loading for extended time, to keep powder away from cylinder bore.

whats the name of that wooden device your using

Will Cliff be making his former available through your site?

@erasgonehistoricalmolds2400

7 жыл бұрын

Rick as far as I know, Cliff will be selling directly

Do you know any one who sells 31. Caliber former? And thank you for the grate vidio.

How about a video on how to make the mandrel and die? How to get a tapered hole?

@erasgonehistoricalmolds2400

7 жыл бұрын

To that is not a bad idea. Cliff Manley was the created of this tool. An illness has prevented him from going into production. If he consents, that might be a good video for later.

@TheWozWizard

6 жыл бұрын

With some dimensions, 3-d cad program and a 3-d printer the mandrel and die could be spit out in no time.

@barrybowden5778

5 жыл бұрын

How about someone coming up with a 3d printed version of this? Could not. E hard if you have an original to get measurements from.

Mark, when using the former, do you HAVE to use the conical bullets? when I got my revolvers, no one around here had actual black powder, and I got the Pyrodex, and round balls. Will they work or do I have to get the other products?

@erasgonehistoricalmolds2400

5 жыл бұрын

Gary, Cliff Manley now sells a former that will work with round balls from what I understand. You might contact him for particulars

@garyanderson2720

5 жыл бұрын

@@erasgonehistoricalmolds2400 Thanks Mark. I have already sent him an email ( I think) asking for such information.

Does the paper for the cartridge have to be flammable? Or can I use regular cigarette paper and it still fire? You mentioned the paper was soaked in potassium nitrate, where do you get it and how do you soak the paper? Any help would be much appreciated

@erasgonehistoricalmolds2400

6 жыл бұрын

This paper is simply coffee filters that have been soaked in a potassium nitrate solution and then dried. Some folks use cigarette papers or hair curling papers with good affect that have not been nitrated. I've even heard of newsprint being used. What ever you use, be sure to keep only one layer of paper at the tail end so that the fire from the cap can penetrate.

I've got the Johnston and Dow bullet mold, but the lead I use is too hard and the bullets are very difficult to load. I'm using lead shot in my lead pot. What can be done to soften up the lead so that I can actually seat the bullets more easily?

@MEHubbs

3 жыл бұрын

I don't know of a way to remove the antimony and other harder metals from a lead alloy. I suspect you will need to save your alloy for other uses and find some pure lead for percussion revolver bullets.

What's the dimensions of the press? Thanks.

bonjour, vous utilisez quoi comme colle ? merci.

What are the dimensions of the template that is traced and cut out of the nitrated coffee filters?

@erasgonehistoricalmolds2400

7 жыл бұрын

I should be sized according to the diameter of the mandrel. Mine is about 1-5/8 in across the wide end and about 1-1/8 in on the narrow end and about 1-1/8 in long.

BP is measured by VOLUME not weight. Just fyi.

normally black powder is measured by volume but, in my experience weight and volume are about equal.

@erasgonehistoricalmolds2400

7 жыл бұрын

Thanks Steve. Volume measurement is simply a convenience and it is an approximation of actual weight. All the markings on commercial black powder measures are almost arbitrary. They differ from brand to brand. If using a measure, check it with a good scale to verify the markings. If consistency is required, especially for competition shooting, using a scale is a must. I often use a measure on the range, but have remarked it for my preferred charges based on scale weight.

@stevenjohnson2273

7 жыл бұрын

Mark Hubbs For competition I stick to goex brand when I was a cw reenactor I used what ever was cheaper, usually elephant brand (now out of business plant blew up). interesting video. btw started shooting bp about '83 or '84.

ok, i'm trying to see why all this time and effort is put into making a cartridge ,when I can indeed load and shoot 3 or 4 cylinders full using wonder wads and the old fashioned loading medthod, in the time it takes to make just one of those cartridges. and that's not including soaking and cutting the paper. Am I missing something here ?

@erasgonehistoricalmolds2400

6 жыл бұрын

Freezer, I think what you are missing is the added historical element to shooting historic revolvers. The Wonder Wads you mention are actually the new fangled modern method of loading and shooting. Back during the day, civilians had the option of buying factory made ammo, very similar to what I am making in the video, or using loose powder and bullets. Colt and other companies made a fortune selling pre-made ammo and it was available at almost any hardware store or establishment that sold ammunition. Home made bullets would have been either a round ball or conical cast in the classic Colt mold. The military, however, relied solely on ready made cartridges. This is true for the US Army and the vast majority of CS troops.

@knowsbetter1

5 жыл бұрын

On rainy days you can load up hundreds and once that's done you can load faster than pouring powder, patch and bal/conical. Besides, it's fun to be a part of times gone by/erasgone.

Is that block and mandrel tapered?

@stihlguessin210

3 жыл бұрын

Yes!

Is there a link to that cartridge former? I can't find it online.

@erasgonehistoricalmolds2400

7 жыл бұрын

Lunarpking, no unfortunately not. The fellow who made this for me intended to make some for sale also, but illness has delayed that. Maybe someone needs to mass produce these!

@lunarpking

7 жыл бұрын

That's s shame, it looks like a great product.

@knowsbetter1

5 жыл бұрын

@@erasgonehistoricalmolds2400 Hey Mark. I'm retired now and I've been making different dowels for my replica 1858 Remington. 44 target pistol I would be honored to make those to measurements specs. Looking forward to hearing from you. Forever your humble servant. Chris.

@erasgonehistoricalmolds2400

5 жыл бұрын

Crows, these are now being produced on license by Russell Smith who can be reached at magicrussell@live.com

Trying to find your kit.Do you still sell?

@erasgonehistoricalmolds2400

5 жыл бұрын

Charles, Cliff Manley has stopped production of this formers due to bad health. I hope someone else will start production, with his permission, in the future. If that happens I will let everyone know on my Facebook Page and website. Thanks

Soaking paper with potassium nitrate solution IS NOT nitration! True nitration of paper is made by soaking paper in mixture of nitric and sulfric acid.

@michaelrobinson1945

6 жыл бұрын

What you're suggesting is Nitrocellulose, also called smokeless powder. No way would I use that in a Black Powder revolver.

25 grains by weight or volume? Thanks Mr. Mark

@TexasHellcat1836

3 жыл бұрын

Volume I'm assuming

@jordanhicks5131

3 жыл бұрын

Black powder should always be measured by volume, never by weight. Any muzzleloader manual would tell you this.

Where can I get that mandrel

@erasgonehistoricalmolds2400

3 жыл бұрын

This is one of the places that I recommend since Mr Manley passed. www.etsy.com/shop/GunsOfTheWest?ref=simple-shop-header-name&listing_id=891828933

Can you tell me where to get that thing?

just the paper is it a special type?

@erasgonehistoricalmolds2400

6 жыл бұрын

Licio, I was using brown coffee filter paper in the video, but one can use many other types of paper. Others that people use are cigarette paper, hair curling papers and magician's flash paper.

@mazlucio

6 жыл бұрын

thank a lot

@LarryTalbot_1313

4 жыл бұрын

@@erasgonehistoricalmolds2400 I used flash paper at first. Its expensive for what little you get, but it works. I can say that. But if a person was going to shoot regular, do reenactments, etc. that would easily run into a small fortune very fast. Plus they come in large sheets, so there is a sizable amount of waste trying to get them to some workable size. Nitrated coffee filters are the best option if a person has the time. I had to go with rolling papers for both time and efficiency. I'm also using a cheap plastic former because Cliff Manley died before I could afford the best one! But I started off with a wooden dowel painfully hand sanded down to size, so it can be done.

And lube?

@MEHubbs

3 жыл бұрын

Lukas, check my video on lubricating cartridges.

Lube?

you should make YOUR methods clear in your videos,many people are too stupid to understand the difference in weight and volume when loading black powder

NEVER WEIGH BLACK POWDER! It is measured by VOLUME,not weight

@erasgonehistoricalmolds2400

6 жыл бұрын

Robert never say never. Commercial powder measures are simply approximations of avoirdupois grain weights. There is no standardization for them and they vary from maker to maker. Any measure that I use, and I do use them often, I calibrate by using a grain weight scale. This was also done in the arsenals that produced ammunition during the Civil War. In a sense, I always weigh my charges, but occasionally use a measure, which I have checked against a scale. This article give a better explanation than I can. Thanks! www.chuckhawks.com/blackpowder_volumetric.htm

@r.parker1933

6 жыл бұрын

I second Mark on this. Different brands, production lots, and granulations of BP will have different volumes even if they weigh the same, and they'll all burn and shoot differently. And since, as Mark noted, there is no real standardization in the volume of various measure manufacturers, measuring by weight can be one of the most consistent ways to measure and get consistent loads.

@453421abcdefg12345

3 жыл бұрын

The explosive force generated by black powder is directly related to weight, volume was only a very approximate way of pouring a charge when in the field, if you measure by volume different brands or grain sizes of powder then measure velocity, you will get vastly different values when volume is used, weighing is the only way to get consistent results.

I'm not a reenactor so originality isn't key for me. I just love front stuffers of any kind. For a 36 I'll put powder in an empty .38 special or .357 case and press the ball on top of the case just hard enough to hold the bullet. For the 44 I can use 45 Colt (any rimmed .45 variant) or even a .44 (.429) case. Walk around and shoot all day in a pocket or possibles bag and they don't come apart. ps, bite the bullet to separate from the case and pour powder in the cylinder.

you better MEASURE 25 grains of black powder,don't weigh it. If you measure 25 grains you will find it weighs over 30 grains.

@rdstrain49

6 жыл бұрын

That only means that your powder measure is not correct, not the other way around. 25 grains is 25 grains period.

@ChucksSEADnDEAD

6 жыл бұрын

The end result in gaseous products, aka the thing that causes the sudden spike in pressure, obeys the law of conservation of mass. So if you want an accurate measurement of the propelling energy behind your bullet you should weight the solid, not measure it by volume.

@realherbalism1017

6 жыл бұрын

For black powder, yes. For black powder substitutes, no. You must have the exact weight to volume ratio on substitutes.