He's EASILY the greatest. Its already set in stone. a World Cup win is just to complete his trophy cabinet + the cherry on top

@franalytics5995

Жыл бұрын

amen bruv

@gouravghosh588

Жыл бұрын

Absolutely correct. It would also be fun to watch the meltdown of Penaldo fans if Messi lifts the WC

@franalytics5995

Жыл бұрын

@@gouravghosh588 bruh noone even talked about ronaldo here why is he living rent free in ur head

@gouravghosh588

Жыл бұрын

@@franalytics5995 Goes to show who is living rent free is who's head. I just said it would be funny to watch the meltdown of Penaldo fans. He doesn't live my head, because I don't even consider him a rival to Messi

@franalytics5995

Жыл бұрын

@@gouravghosh588 the comment was about Messi's obvious greatness and brilliance, and how he's the clear goat and then u say i can't wait to see the meltdown of penaldo fans, u don't need to disrespect Ronaldo and act like a toxic Twitter npc, we weren't even talking about ronaldo or his fans, get Ronaldo outta ur head boi

He is the best player at 35 at the world cup most goals Most assists Most chances created. He was the goat before the world cup even now

@ElDragow

Жыл бұрын

no he isn't.

@kobber69

Жыл бұрын

@@ElDragow damn you make some great points

@vb2388

Жыл бұрын

@@ElDragow stick to anime weeb 😂

@charliegreen4588

Жыл бұрын

Doesn't Greizmann have the record for most chances created in the world cup 2022?

@noone6953

Жыл бұрын

@@charliegreen4588 if I’m not mistaken yes. Messi is 2nd. He created one less chance than griezman. It’s still great tho. Having the 2nd most created chance in World cup

To me what makes Messi so much better than anyone else is that, if he had not scored a single goal in his entire career but kept everything else as it is now, we'd still be talking about him as the best playmaker and one of the best players in history But he scored goals, 800 of them, he's just so good at every single attacking aspect of the game that we kind of "forget" that he's also the best finisher in modern football history, so much so that Ronaldo unfairly got that title, Messi is untouchable

@nazmulbhuiyan1982

Жыл бұрын

About 10 years ago Barcelona thrashed Real Madrid by scoring 5 goals. Messi didn’t score a single goal in that match but he was still MOTM, that’s the kind of impact he has even when not scoring.

@SheevPalps868

Жыл бұрын

@@nazmulbhuiyan1982 That game is so iconic. I remember watching Messi slowly walking off the pitch looking like he had just defeated an army.

@mariosimas

Жыл бұрын

Its not the records or the silverware, its the Football and the lasting memory that leaves in all of us.

@SanxBile

Жыл бұрын

Just watch him play.. The Greatest.

If Messi was only one of the greatest dribblers of all time, then it's a debate over whether he is indeed the greatest of all time. The issue is... he will also go down as one of the greatest goal-scorers of all time, with 91 goals in ONE YEAR IS ABSURD... it is absolutely ridiculous his proficiency at scoring. But then you add the fact that he's not simply those two things... he will go down as one of the GREATEST direct creators, how many times have you seen Messi slip in players 1 on 1 with defence-splitting balls. Then add on the passing - the weight of pass is crazy, he can hit switches like nothing. THEN ADD ON TO THE FACT, HE'S AN ELITE ELITE PLAYMAKER... how many times is this guy going to drop deep and start plays, create combinations and transition the game forward Fucking alien of a player

Not seen or never will see a player who dominated all the attacking aspects of the game like Messi. For people who constantly watch football matches, there never was a debate.

@gouravghosh588

Жыл бұрын

Couldn't agree more

@csbdcsbd8728

Жыл бұрын

Explain how he dominates all the attacking aspects

@ElDragow

Жыл бұрын

Ronaldo is literally better.

@Zakaria_cfc

Жыл бұрын

@@csbdcsbd8728 playmaking. dribbling and goalcoring and set pieces he is the best at all of them

@FountainOfYoot

Жыл бұрын

@@Zakaria_cfc so he's the greatest goalscorer of all time? With the most goals? Interesting. That's news to me

None can be compared to him, he's the greatest footballer to play the game.

@ElDragow

Жыл бұрын

Ronaldo is literally better.

@thetruegospelofchrist4160

Жыл бұрын

@@ElDragow drugs are not good for you nor anyone, unless prescribed by a doctor.

@Ar021

Жыл бұрын

@@ElDragow at what? For me Ronaldo slightly edges Messi at goal scoring but that’s it.

@SheevPalps868

Жыл бұрын

@@Ar021 even then Messi’s goal per game ratio is better, he’s got more golden boots, record for most goals in a year and season, more goals in finals and more goals from the bench.

@klaus2913

Жыл бұрын

@@ElDragow Go and check the stats then. Messi is above Ronaldo on almost every metric, except for headers. He has the better dribbling, passing and even edges him on goal scoring. Next to that he has a ton more assists than him, and the superior vision. Although Ronaldo is definitely one of the best players to ever grace the pitch, Messi still edges him. I also have never seen Ronaldo dribbling almost whole teams on a constant basis, as if he was still in school. The amount of solo goals Messi made is insane. I really do not understand why this is even a debate, because for me the eye test already shows who the better one is.

Messi is so good. That you just don't know what to talk about. The goals? The dribbles ? The playmaking? The longevity? The achievements ? Every aspect tick marked in big bold letters. Every other player has got one or the other, Messi got all of that and that too he's been better than anyone else in all of those areas individually taken ! Man we're just truly blessed !

Unpopular opinion but Pele played with an incredibly strong team and many of his team mates also played in Santos. Maradona at a personal level is a controversial figure, but as a footballer he was a force of nature. As far as Messi goes, I used to think he needed to do more at National level, despite winning Copa America, but now its clear to me whether he wins the world cup or not that he is the best player of all time and that’s coming from a Madrid fan.

@gumdeo

Жыл бұрын

Pele supposedly "won" the World Cup in 1962 when he missed most of the tournament and it was Garrincha that actually carried Brasil to victory.

@zeckchi0148

Жыл бұрын

The Brazilian team Pele played in where mostly filled with Botafogo player there were only three players from santos on the team.

@zeckchi0148

Жыл бұрын

@@gumdeo so you’re going to ignore the other two world cups including the 1972 cup in which he was the best player of the tournament.

@LexWil7

Жыл бұрын

@@zeckchi0148 was his team the best by far of any nation in all roles or that’s something we’re going to ignore?

@kunalsingh4418

Жыл бұрын

@@zeckchi0148 No we are not, but you have to consider the difference in leading an underdog to victory, and being part of the strongest team which wins the tournament easily. The first is an infinitely more difficult task, and hence is given far more respect. Pele as you mentioned has one in 1972, which IMO is more valuable than other 2 combined. Similarly although Maradona has only one, his performance in 1986 is so dominating that single one is already good enough. Same for Messi that is if he manages to win.

Nowadays, football is a team sport more than ever. How many times we have seen a whole team come up with a strategy to beat Messi only for them to fail? How many times we have seen a whole team set up in a way only to stop Messi's free kick and fail? Plus nowadays even an average footballer has to be way more athletic to compete. It's way more difficult today to be an exceptional player. Messi has even proven at 35 years old that he is a class above the most gifted physical players like Haaland and Mbappe. The longevity this guy has achieved has never been seen before. Yes, Maradona was exceptional but for how many years? It was like Ronaldinho. He was the best player in the world but only for a few seasons. Messi has been dominating the stage for 16 years. It's unreal. Now at 35 and he is better than Haaland and Mbappe. For me, if you have to be considered the best you need to have this kind of contributory factor. Not a world cup. In order to win the world cup you need first of all luck. To be born in a country that can win it and secondly to have good enough teammates that can contribute in those exact moments.

@-Jonty

Жыл бұрын

Spot on

@houseofvenusMD

Жыл бұрын

By your own definition Messi is the greatest today, but Pele is the greatest of all time. Pele consistently scored ~40% of Brazil's world cup goals in four World Cup tournaments spanning 12 years, winning three of them with the first being won at aged 17. That's another league entirely. I believe in the Pantheon of Football it will be Pele, Maradona, Messi. If Messi wins this World Cup he will surpass Maradona in that respect for sure.

@KonDamian

Жыл бұрын

@@houseofvenusMD I don't put so high the world cup. Many things can go wrong. As I said, it's a team game. If France for example win Dembele will get the medal. Does it mean that hibis better than Messi? Absolutely not. Another factor is that you can be the MVP of the tournament and still don't win anything. To be more clear, Messi did everything correct with the game against the Dutch, but if Martinez didn't had catch those penalties Argentina would be out. So Messi "greatness" depends on others too.

@theboss-by5gd

Жыл бұрын

@@houseofvenusMD im sorry but the level of Pele's oppositions compared to what Messi and CR7 faced week in week out for 16 to 20 years straight,nah not even close.Pele is one of the greats but Messi is clear for sure

The idea that Maradona carried a poor Argentina team is false. Yes, he’s obviously the main man that was running the team, but that Argentina team were actually one of the strongest. Valdano, Burruchaga, Ruggeri and Batista. Valdano scored 4G 1A, Burruchaga 2G 2A. And they were experienced, Valdano was Real Madrid no.9. WC22Argentina only just started using Alvarez and Enzo, but no one thought they would’ve been starters by the end of the WC. And compare in terms of quality, Brazil, Portugal, England, France and maybe even Germany are better. Also, in 1986, they don’t have data on players like they do now. The amount of defensive coverages Messi has to deal with is insane (even at 36). No surprise he averages 10 less touches than ‘86 Maradona.

@evilestmanlp

Жыл бұрын

According to people who actually did research, the narrative that Maradona single-handedly winning for Argentina and Napoli is the most false narratives in all of football history. Maradona spent 2 seasons at Napoli where he did nothing, it’s only when other offensive players came that they won Calcio.

@rohhhann

Жыл бұрын

Maradona was the most fouled player in the '82, '86 and '90 editions of the World Cup. Defenders now can't risk contact like they did in the past. This heavily favours attackers today. Look at how many soft penalties were given in Qatar for comparison. Despite being the most fouled player Maradona was still able to complete the most dribbles per game in World Cup history and lift Argentina to victory.

@rohhhann

Жыл бұрын

@@evilestmanlp The season before Maradona joined Napoli they were 1 point away from relegation. The next four years he was Napoli's top goal scorer as a midfielder, taking Napoli from potential relegation and mid-table obscurity into becoming title contenders in only two seasons. This was the first time Napoli had ever won a Scudetto in their history and only the second time a club from Southern Italy had become champion. He did this at a time when Serie A was the strongest league in the world.

@velianfc

Жыл бұрын

@@rohhhann Defenders are much better athletically, technically and tactically. Maradona would’ve struggled vs low block team in the modern era. There was more space back then. Maradona biggest moments wouldn’t have existed because of VAR (E.g. England WC’86). More pens also means teams are also able to score more when they’re totally defeated. Just like the Mbappe pen when France were losing 2-0. Also I’ve seen teams try physically assault Messi since 2005 (South American games and prime El Clasico for example).

@velianfc

Жыл бұрын

@@evilestmanlp exactly. But don’t get it twisted, him being the leader, the main goal contributor, the main playmaker shows he did ‘carry’ the team to an extent. But the idea he didn’t have top quality teammates, who then were able to carry him in 1990 is crazy revisionism. Maradona is one of the goat/all timer, but lets put respect on Real Madrid’s number 9 Valdano and those guys 😂. Messi had Lautaro playing against him the whole tournament and had no Di Maria until the final.

That 1986 Argentina team wasn't weak. They won the Copa America without Maradona. This Argentine team without Messi could never.

@rohhhann

Жыл бұрын

Argentina won Copa America in 1991 with different players.

@vb2388

Жыл бұрын

@@rohhhann yes and they also reached 1990 WC final 🤷🏻‍♂️ where Maradona had 0 goals the entire tournament Argentina from 1986 to 1993 were very good…Maradona single handedly didn’t carry anyone…that’s just a false narrative

@charliegreen4588

Жыл бұрын

Argentina could win the Copa America without Messi. They'd still be ranked second best team without him

@rohhhann

Жыл бұрын

@@vb2388 Maradona played with an injury in WC 90 where they won only 2 games en route to the final. He wasn't physically 100% but still helped them to another final. He was voted the 3rd best player despite this. In 1986 Argentina doesn't win the World Cup without Maradona. All Argentina's playmaking went through him. That side was more reliant on Maradona than Argentina is to Messi.

@rohhhann

Жыл бұрын

@@vb2388 Two players from 1986 were in 1991 and 1993 squads. Oscar Ruggeri and reserve GK Luis Islas. Maradona carried a different group of players to glory.

Why do you say that ‘86 Arg team is weaker than today? Any evidence? i watched that entire WC and that Arg team was incredible in defense and made counter ops for Maradona. Maradona didnt win that on his own either.

@Aanike09

Жыл бұрын

I think that was his point, that in reality saying one team was stronger may be incorrect because a lot of those players might have been forgotten to time

@zxtsf

Жыл бұрын

Stats

@toocool.conservative3632

Жыл бұрын

look at the team player by player by player, bench by bench

@gumdeo

Жыл бұрын

86 goalie was weaker for a start...

@Karma2Babylon

Жыл бұрын

And Carlos Bilardo was a smart muthafucka

yes he is discussion is over

@MrMelvinmoore

Жыл бұрын

shouldn't even be a discussion obj

Even if Messi wins the World Cup, Shaka from ESPN would rank him #10 in his world famous power rankings

Short Answer: Yes Long Answer: Yeeeeessssss

Messi is basically Maradona + the goals. We've seen pace merchants (Mbappe,Ronaldo) and pure poachers (Haaland, Ronaldo, Gerd Muller) come along in every generation. But we have yet to see players like Maradona and Messi dribble and passing/playmaking ability with the ball. The fact Maradona was even in the goat debate with Pele when Pele scored a outrageous amount of goals while Maradona doesn't really have big goal scoring numbers says it all. Football ability matters.

@daniaaal

Жыл бұрын

Not to forget, Messi is also in the conversation for best playmaker ever too, alongside players like Cruyff and Zidane in that regard

@Spacecowboyyy

Жыл бұрын

To reduce Mbappe and Ronaldo(Portuguese or Brazilian) to pace merchants is criminal, no ball knowledge

@Sircoochie

Жыл бұрын

Pace merchants - messi is as fast Poachers - messi scores more Creators - messi assists more

@zaidabraham7310

Жыл бұрын

@@Sircoochie Messi does not have a lot of pace since like 2013 or 2014 where he had a bunch of injury issues. In a full sprint, many players would beat him. But he still has great acceleration and deceleration, excellent dribbling, and good upper body strength which allows him to make up for it.

@toyosioyejobi309

Жыл бұрын

You say merchant like it's a useless part of the game so can we say ball control merchant or assist merchant? 😂 You're crazy . And ronaldo has many assist and many parts to his game

Earlier the debate was messi to win the cup and now hater will say he will won, but with a stronger team? How could just a span of 20 days decide who's better at mere footballing abilities.

Thank you TIFO for the most calm and rational discussion about the places of Messi and CR7 in the pantheon of Football. I especially like the idea of the greatest player in the world being ephemeral pre Messi/CR7 and the idea of Messi/CR7 as representative of football ideology. I hadn't considered that.

@baTonkaTruck

Жыл бұрын

There’s an interview clip in “Messi: A God Amongst Men” where the interviewer asks (not sure the interviewee): - Who’s better Messi or Ronaldo? - Messi - Why? - Messi is natural I agree there’s something mechanical about Ronaldo that’s awe-inspiring. But I get this emotional, almost spiritual feeling while watching Messi.

I feel like Messi has had all time great moments, statistics and awards in every competition he’s played in. Domestic League, Domestic Cup, Champions League, Copa America and in 2014 he had an amazing World Cup but we hadn’t seen him score in the KO stages and this World Cup he’s added that to his career. There’s no competition you can say that Messi hasn’t left an all time great legacy in and it’s so difficult to say that that’s not what makes someone the greatest of all time.

He was already greatest of all time many years ago like Arsene Wenger said.

The reason I think why the World Cup doesn't matter with being the goat, is when players like George Best are mentioned, If Maradona, Pele, Messi, Ronaldo, Cruyff, Maldini, Cristiano etc all played for the Faroe Islands (not at the same time) then they have 0 chance of any international success, but that does not discredit them one iota from being great. Messi is the greatest at LEAST of this generation with or without a World Cup, but the sad thing is he NEEDS to win it to convince people of the already obvious truth.

@SanxBile

Жыл бұрын

Is Messi the best player ever? Let's wait until he's 35 and then let the result of one game decide. Seems like a logical way to evaluate his entire body of work.

@ielitecod933

Жыл бұрын

Exactly what I have been saying for ages now. A player doesn’t win a world cup, a team does. So judging a player based on team succes is just dumb. Look at what the player does individually on the field to judge him. Messi is the best, even if he plays for the worst team in the world and doesn’t win a team trophy… A player like Haaland won’t win a single trophy for his nation, does that make him a worse player than ‘world cup winner Mbappé’? Let’s see if Mbappé would win the world cup for Norway….

@tyronelorenzovalentio3414

6 ай бұрын

@@ielitecod933Mbappe is better than Haaland

As someone new to football (soccer) in the past few years, love the channel and this particular episode really resonated. Coming as a hockey fan, I see a lot of the parallels in the Messi-Ronaldo debate with Crosby-Ovechkin. Fascinating points that really made a lot of sense.

One of the best discussions I've heard on the subject. I wish there was more content like this available.

Messi is the goat whether he wins the World Cup or not but if he wins the trophy he’s only going to distance himself from the rest of the goat candidates. With that said my list is 1. Messi 2. Maradona 3. Pele 4. C. Ronaldo 5. Zidane 6. Beckenbauer 7. Ronaldo (Brazilian) 8. Ronaldinho 9. George Best 10. Cruyff

@emmanuelewenyi9434

Жыл бұрын

nice list::: I will only alter the list by putting cruyf at 5, put 6 at 10.

I think if you answer this question with any certainty, all you're saying is that you haven't considered the question enough. Hardly anyone working in football media or closely watching the game today has enough of an idea of just *how good* Pelé was, or Maradona, or Di Stefano, or Puskas, or Cruyff, or Garrincha, or whoever. Even those who were alive then and are alive now are so frequently dismissive of the modern crop of players that it just seems like old-peopleness. All I can say, all any of us can really say, is who is the best we've seen. And if you're my age, the best you've seen is Messi. There are no questions about it.

@xavier.mauricio

Жыл бұрын

@Netaji-The British Slayer I think Puskas and Garrincha fall short of GOAT standards, but I think they deserve consideration for top 10, maybe even top 5. I can't say for sure, because I haven't watched them like that.

@AndyCampbellMusic

Жыл бұрын

I am old enough to have watched all the greats from Pele, through Puskas, Di Stefano, Cruyff, George Best, Beckenbauer, Maradona and a few not so well known, such as Jimmy Johnson, Jim Baxter, Stanley Matthews (played till he was 50) and many more.. For many years, Pele was the best player I had ever seen but the little man from Argentina, tops them all.. In general I agree, many people will tend to favour players they saw in their youth or who played for their teams, countries etc. Not all do. They love the art, skill and entertainment provided by the greats. The little man from Argentina was gifted by evolution and genetics with a set of skills, that he honed by practice and hard work, into the greatest player I have ever seen.. Yes some could jump higher, hit a ball harder, juggle the ball a little more deftly or run faster but Messi can do ALL of those, things, to an extremely high level. The others had maybe one or two of those skills, he has ALL of them.

@xavier.mauricio

Жыл бұрын

@@AndyCampbellMusic incredible to hear your perspective, Andy! The best part of the internet is getting to see this sort of stuff.

@user-zq7vi8lm4z

Жыл бұрын

@@AndyCampbellMusic damn sir, just how old are you? hope you have good life

@CrazyFanaticMan

Жыл бұрын

Very reasonable comment, I approve

It is extremely difficult to say, comparing players is always a hard thing to do given that each player is different in both position on the pictch aswell as playing style, but each player is also at the mercy of factors beyond their control. You don't win games/titles alone, football is a team sport. In the end, by a very slim margin, Messi is the best for me tho. Players like CR7, R9, Maradonna, Pele (and more i'm forgetting) are close behind Messi and maybe recency bias is also at play here, but all things considered i think Messi is the best.

@ElDragow

Жыл бұрын

i agree with your entire logic, but for me Ronaldo is slightly better than all the rest, but i agree 100% with your theory, and i would actually say ronaldo and messi stand alone as the goats

I got into soccer because of Thierry Henry and the invincibles. I thought, “man football will never get better than this”. And then I witnessed Messi and Ronaldo, and I was completely wrong lol. I’m just happy I got to witness it.

cant compare people of different generations football's a completely different game now than 20 years ago never mind 30, 50, 80 years ago, but he's far and away the best of his generation

@csbdcsbd8728

Жыл бұрын

How is he far and away the best of his generation

@nicolasho7664

Жыл бұрын

@@csbdcsbd8728 He's statistically the best goalscorer, best playmaker, best dribbler, and most influential player of this era. While Ronaldo may come close to his raw goal tally, Messi is the most complte attacking player of this generation by a mile.

@chris_bfc_9071

Жыл бұрын

@@csbdcsbd8728 because of how he plays football better than anyone

@csbdcsbd8728

Жыл бұрын

@@nicolasho7664 but why are you using just dribbling as an example. Why do you fair to give out loads of attributes such as Ronaldo being arguably the best header of all time?

@csbdcsbd8728

Жыл бұрын

@@chris_bfc_9071 right nice response but how does he play football better than anyone

Ronaldo - all time great level goal scorer, has won everything at an individual and club level, champion of his continent, countless records Messi - all that + a World Cup while being one of the greatest playmakers this game as ever seen.

I think the big misconcept when people talk about Messi is how inconceivable his ability is, and in return we should not aspire to it. I have heard a few commentators say, Messi way of playing is so inexplicable that coaches shouldnt tell their students to learn from Messi on account of the sheer talent he possess. He is magician of the sport, and very few can do what he does, but this magical aspect of his gameplay diminishes the very hard--earned intelligence aspect that comes into play. And although many would only dream to dribble like Messi, many of his other godly abilities are still rooted in a great understanding of the game. Passing and vision especially. Whilst his dribbling and finishing is absolutely phenomenal, whast makes Messi so efficient is how he reacts to each opportunity. He is by far the most rational player in the game. He never waste any chances, never tries for 40-yard screamers, everything is purposeful. He is a master of reading the game and renown for almost 'dissappearing' 15-20 minutes of the match to analyse the best way to approach the defender at any particular game. This intelligence is to me what makes Messi the GOAT

10:50 Great observation!!

If he wins this world cup he'll be the greatest of all time, absolutely no contest. I mean Ronaldo in my opinion is close, but after that there is no contest whatsoever. Ronaldo will be remembered for the sheer drive and dedication to football and his clutch moments can't be overlooked, But Messi will be remembered by his pure "playing with the ball" moments. Both of them are great in their own ways, but as I said Messi will come out on top.

@arnold-hu4vk

Жыл бұрын

which 'clutch' moments? genuinely interested to know

@tyronelorenzovalentio3414

6 ай бұрын

@@arnold-hu4vkHe has many So does and he’s got a world cup😂

Hindsight 2022..... Now hes the g.o.a.t.. no questions asked. 2 goals and thats Minor in the grand Scope of things. His leadership in this WC was legendary. And im brazillian ffs.

He is now 🏆

One way to end the comparison (or prove that it never existed) is this: How long can you sit through a highlights reel of Messi's plays vs one of Ronaldo's?

@ElDragow

Жыл бұрын

Ronaldo's highlights are easily better and more varied, messi's are boring and the same

@JohnDoe-dn9ez

Жыл бұрын

@@ElDragow Then there is no comparison for you, right?

@BasedinReality1984

Жыл бұрын

All of Messi's goals are the same.

@higurk

Жыл бұрын

@@ElDragow delusional

@pablobuquet2534

Жыл бұрын

I can watch hours and hours of messi, but only 1 hour of Ronaldo. The way Messi still has the ball in almost all situations is just unreal to me as a guy who loves to dribble

Numbers from 2012 seasson across the globe: Premier League Champion: Manchester City. 93 goals League 1 Champion: Montpellier. 68 goals Serie A Champion: Juventus. 79 goals (Max scorer Zlatan with 28 goals, Max passer Pirlo with 13 assists) Bundesliga Champion: Borussia Dortmund. 89 goals (Max scorer Huntelaar with 29 goals, Max passer Riverí with 12 assists) Monster-Peak Leonel: 91 goals and 37 assists

@gastonlanteri1147

Жыл бұрын

Literally, the guy was scoring as much as the best teams of the other leagues, while doubling (and even tripling) the amount of assists of the best passers of each one of those leagues. How can you do that, is beyond human understanding.

It was never a debate. It was just so satisfying he won the WC with style and humiliated all the haters

Fuck yeah he's the clear GOAT

Its easily Messi. Cristiano has never had that Genius quality that makes people unable to comprehend and applaud brilliance. There is only 1 man that has completed Football and its Messi,

86 side was weaker than this? Check this... Plus-minus measures the impact of a player on their team’s performance. Originally invented by hockey general managers, every player on the ice is awarded a plus when their team scores a goal while every opponent player on ice gets a minus. The higher the plus-minus rating, the higher the net positive of goals scored for a player’s team. In terms of plus-minus, the best player has the highest plus-minus score, and the worst player has the lowest. 1. Julián Álvarez • Argentina +11 2. Theo Hernández • France +10 3. Kylian Mbappé • France +9 Jordan Pickford • England +9 Jude Bellingham • England +9 John Stones • England +9 Hugo Lloris • France +9 Antoine Griezmann • France +9 9. Harry Maguire • England +8 Cristian Romero • Argentina +8 Luke Shaw • England +8 Enzo Fernández • Argentina +8 César Azpilicueta • Spain +8 Harry Kane • England +8 Declan Rice • England +8 Olivier Giroud • France +8 Rodrigo De Paul • Argentina +8 1. Jorge Burruchaga • Argentina +10 2. Jorge Valdano • Argentina +9 Oleksandr Zavarov • Soviet Union +9 Elzo Coelho • Brazil +9 José Luis Brown • Argentina +9 Alemão • Brazil +9 Nery Pumpido • Argentina +9 Edinho • Brazil +9 Branco • Brazil +9 Oscar Ruggeri • Argentina +9 Careca • Brazil +9 Leovegildo Lins da Gama Júnior • Brazil +9 Diego Maradona • Argentina +9 Júlio César • Brazil +9 Carlos Roberto Gallo • Brazil +9 Ricardo Giusti • Argentina +

@AveenB

Жыл бұрын

Statistically, the 1986 team was better as they had more players with +9 and +10 than the 2022 side.

Has there been any objective analysis done on factors that determine GOAT status? Would see something on this topic from #tifo folks!

Why is it during these debates Messi’s entire creative assist numbers aren’t weighted as they should be. Since Messi has made his debut in football. He’s scored more goals than anyone else including Ronaldo all while providing far and away more assists than anyone else. How is this even possible… and why is this not given the reverence it deserves. Goal scoring is one thing but to score the most while also create the most… well that’s simple never in the history of football been achieved.

He did it !!

YES... He's cemented his place now that his won the big one!

Portugal team on paper twice as good as Argentina. Says it all

Before the final: yes, he is After the final: yes, and now the debate is over

If we talk about national teams, winning a world cup is definitely important. Now comparing individuals, it makes sense to me to use individual achievements and stats.

Man, I was really hoping for Messi vs Ronaldo final, their last World Cup, both missing that trophy, I would had expected for both to be in the mood and turn back the clock a bit

@FatTodd

Жыл бұрын

Timing for ronaldo was all wrong, last season he seemed half decent but his legs now are completely shot

to those who play football knows Messi is clearly miles ahead of Cristiano, there was never a debate

If Messi was English, he would have been declared the best ever 5 years back. These debates are useless.

@gumdeo

Жыл бұрын

Ha! If Messi was English, he would be Sir Lionel Messi by now.

@george5464

Жыл бұрын

He was declared the best ever in 2011…

My Goat Lionel Messi.

Messi is clinical never ever seen such a finishing before so cold so clean his precision, Vision, Ball controll is unbelievable. On the other Hand CR7 who is the hardest worker out there with a strong will and Personality. Throw them both in their prime in a Team together and give them mates that like modric and Co. and they will beat a Team with Pelé and Maradona

It's not even up for debate anymore. MESSI is the GOD of football let alone 🐐

Yes

1:45 there is a weird narrative that Maradona dragged his teams and although I wasn’t there to dispute this with my own experience, with the information available I don’t think that’s a fair conclusion. Argentina won the World Cup in 1978 without Maradona, won it in 1986 with Maradona a masterclass and then reached the finals again in 1990 when Maradona objectively (both statistically and in the opinion of people that watched) played poorly.

@IWannatalkpodcast

3 ай бұрын

The 78 WC was a fix, we know that now. The rest I agree with and I'm old enough to remember Mexico 86

love the point about them occupying different ideological spaces. CR7 stands for excellence through sheer hardwork determination while messi is that unquantifiable thing aka genius. both have a sprinkle of both but broadly speaking that's what they represent. I'll always give the nod toward genius.

I have never seen anyone played football like that ! Scoring amazing goals week in week out and dribbling past defenders like against school boys plus the vision of his passing .....but we'll miss him .

1) Messi 2) Pele 3) Maradona My personal top 3.

If Mbappe wins the world cup and champions league with PSG, where would he rank?

For me the meaning behind the best player is (a) the one that is able to produce the best football at crucial times to win a game, (b) plays with skill and ability on and off the ball, and (C) produces moments that you are happy to watch over and over again and is not just about kicking a ball in triangles every 5-10 yards around people. Messi leads the way in all 3 criteria and add to that his longevity I cannot see how it is a discussion. Pele was the poster boy for football and to win 3 world cups is outstanding but the teams he played in were outstanding. Maradonna is someone that won things on his own, and some of the things he could do just blows your mind.Interestingly he looked up to George Best who because of where he lived never got to play in a world cup and so is never spoken about in these conversations. But when Messi copied Maradonna's goal and then exceeded it on more than 1 occasion then we would have to say he is the best. Ironically i do not like these conversations i just like seeing good players show not just their skills but their will to win because without that they do not get anywhere

The Goat 🐐 completed football at the age of 35. The Greatest Football Player Of All Times. 🐐 Champs: U-20 WC 2005 Olympic Gold Medal 2008 Copa America 2021 Finalissima 2022 World Cup 2022 ⭐⭐⭐

Cristiano Ronaldo is the greatest human footballer of all time. Messi and Maradona are from another planet.

@ElDragow

Жыл бұрын

Ronaldo is literally better.

@Batman1998-

Жыл бұрын

@@ElDragow but he isn’t, open your eyes . Ronaldo is useless without a goal

@pamilerinluwoye9104

Жыл бұрын

Prove it

@jimsim8736

Жыл бұрын

@@ElDragow Such a ridiculous fanboy opinion, you like all Ronaldo cheerleaders clearly haven’t watched Messi’s career.

Messi is the goat and it ends there. Its no longer a subjective thing. Pele won 2 world cups and yes i said 2 bc i dont count him playing one game in group stages while garincha won brazil the world cup. Also he arguably had the greatest international teams of all time and no offside rule which significantly helped attackers. Sorry but pele was a great player in his era and thats it. Maradona is better than pele but maradona doesn’t come close to messi club achievements and doesn’t have a copa america so he also loses to messi. R9 was the most talented footballer ever imo but injuries and not winning the ucl harms his legacy. Dinho had everything and won everything but he just didn’t play at the top for too long so messi wins again. Cr37 is not even worth debating sorry

Maradona or messi? are you guys kidding? both !!!!!! the only thing you have to look is the human part and the records !!!! messi he is humble and a really nice person and hi gives people hope and dreams and that anything is possible

Messi was so far ahead of everyone even before the World Cup IMO, but now it should not even be debated.

YES

FOR ME MESSI IS NR 1 THE GOAT THE BEST FOOTBALL PLAYER EVER. WC DON'T MATTER HE TOOK THEM 2 THE FINALS 2 TIMES. BUT PEAK PRIME YEARS MESSI AND RONALDINHO IS THE BEST I'VE EVER SEEN AND ENJOYED GENUINELY BUT THE LONGEVITY MESSI🐐⚽️❤️💯🪄😍🥰🗣📽📽 HAS PROVEN IS JUST UNMATCHED SO HE TAKES IT BY FAR HE GOT IT ALL.

Halaand and Mbappe will never reach the heights of Ronaldo and Messi. Yes those strikers will score goals, and a lot of them. However, Messi and Ronaldo have done transcends all the goals they scored. Especially Messi, he completely eclipsed Maradona and Pele. When people talk about Messi they compare him with Maradona or Pele, but when people talk about Ronaldo, they compare him to Messi. There is a level, that I think neither Mbappe or Halaand will ever reach.

Messi. End of story.

Maradona carried Jose Brown to start in World Cup final. At the time Brown was a third division player in Argentina. The lack of quality in that Argentina side that he dragged to wins in historic ways isn’t mentioned enough.

@razino5963

Жыл бұрын

That being said Messi would be greater if he wins on Sunday imo. World Cup is to big of a trophy not to win as the goat.

@belugatheband2023

Жыл бұрын

Just because deportivo Español are bad now doesn't mean they were always like that... in the 85/85 season they were in the top division and ended second in the league, in large part because of Brown...

@razino5963

Жыл бұрын

@@belugatheband2023 they played in the Argentine 3d division please look it up

@sirsurnamethefirstofhisnam7986

Жыл бұрын

@@razino5963 en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportivo_Espa%C3%B1ol They had their best ever season in 85-86 finishing 2nd in the top division.

It's just the way he to do it.

Messi didn't need the World Cup to be the Greatest Of All Times, he already was. He needed it to prove to the rest of the argentinian he could be as great as Maradona was, because at the end, Messi is argentinian, and for an argentinian all that matters is to be viewed as a winner for your country. Had not Messi won the ultimate trophy, he would have retired being the biggest athlete that has ever walked this world BUT not in Argentina. He would have lived his life under the shadow of Diego. Now Lio can say he is as great as Diego ever was, and argentinian people finally have surrended to him. He is the best player in the planet now, AND in Argentina too.

In 1986 final Maradona didn't score, but he did provide assist for the 3rd goal and Argentina beat west Germany 3-2.

During their prime, I believe DM is better. However, over the whole career, I think LM is better due to his longevity.

@chukwudifuagbasi4373

6 ай бұрын

Leo scored 91 goals in his prime

yes

You cant say that a team that contained Ruggeri Passarella Burruchaga Valdano Borghi is inferior to the 22 wc squad

You need to ask a wide age of people that are not only of today's generation But people from different past era's that watched other great players when they played It'll boil down to genarational exposure & preference

Probably the wheels are turning for Messi. Messi had to leave last world cup with near humiliation. It is his time now. His team wants to give the WC gift to him. He is the best player by far.

Yes anymore questions about him?

I really struggle to see why people cannot answer this easily. He was for about 12-13 the best dribbler, passer and finisher. If a player is the best at one of these, they are considered great. Anyone in doubt, go back and watch messi from aged 17-30. There is a reason he has over 380 MOTM award 😂😂😂😂😂 insane

86 Argentina was better than this team. The team was set up to get the best out of Maradona. But those very good players, man.

People claim Ronaldo is the best athlete because he's 6'2" with muscles. He played an exciting brand of football for a small amount of time and then became a poacher. Messi has a great physique and is a strong as a bull and has never changed his style of play. He's still exciting at the age of 35 but Ronaldo has become a goalscorer. Tell me Messi isn't the best athlete as well.

He isn't. Pelé is and no one will ever be able to take that post. It simply can't be done. Every single thing any modern footballer does, Pelé already did, and many of them he came up with. 3 world cups. Messi is amazing but number 2 at best.

Ok winning a trophy doesn't make you a better player. But being the best player in the worlds best team has to give you some kudos. On top of everything else the answer has to be objectively yes. It's all subjective though. Football is entertainment snd produces emotional responses. A wolves fan might say steve bull is the greatest player that ever lived and to them that would be 100% correct. But it's an enjoyable discussion.

YES !!!!

Even if he didn’t win the World Cup he is still easily the goat

Messi vs Ronaldo debate had always bored me. We’ve been blessed to watch two of the greatest footballers to ever kick a ball - and media wants to do is pick a loser.

Well that's Pelé clearly, man with most cup and did it at the hardest time to be a footbballer

@bbobydoesgames

Жыл бұрын

most cup 😂

@neelanshguptaa1440

Жыл бұрын

He didn’t even play most of the ‘62 edition. Brazil at the time were the best time in the world with world class players and they showed that by winning once without him.

@gnevescoelho

Жыл бұрын

@@neelanshguptaa1440 does this also apply to Pep's Barça with Iniesta, Dani Alves and Xavi to serve Messi all the goals he scored?

@jimsim8736

Жыл бұрын

@@gnevescoelho If they served Messi all the goals he scored... why did he continue to set ridiculously high standards without them? Also, go watch his highlight reel, he wasn’t just served the vast majority of goals on a plate.

@neelanshguptaa1440

Жыл бұрын

@@gnevescoelho If Messi were ever injured long enough for Pep’s Barca to win a trophy without him, I guess we’d know.

Ronaldo and Messi for me are the undisputed goats. I respect Maradona and Pele, but i honestly think anyone with a footballing brain knows Ronaldo and Messi are the 2 goats. And at that point it's subjective in my opinion how you rank them. Totally different players, totally different styles, totally different journeys. For me Ronaldo is number 1 and messi is number 2. But Maybe saying Ronaldo is 1.a and Messi is 1.b would be more correct i guess, because thy stand at the top together

@mehyeah2931

Жыл бұрын

You’re just completely wrong. How can a service player like Ronaldo be better than someone that’s more complete at attacking? Football is about trophies goals and assists in which Messi is better at in every way. The only reason why ronaldo had a few more goals is because he has 148 games extra played. Additionally, just watch how Messi plays regularly dribbling past 4 players at a time Ronaldo has not done that. You’re delusional. Messi is in a different stratosphere. Messi is individually the best player to step on the pitch and with 7 Ballon Dors to back it up.

@Koessi

Жыл бұрын

Messi is better at passing shooting dribbling Vision freekicks almost everything except Headers! How is CR7 a better football player thats just illogical

@BloodyofHistory

Жыл бұрын

@@mehyeah2931 let's appreciate the opinion guys, for HIM, ronaldo the goat, but for FOOTBALL, messi is clear

For me there is no one who is the greatest player of All time yet. Because I view it as impossible. There are many legends and one of the best player of all time that I agreed on, but only one? For me the player must achieve many things and win a lot of competition. Also be protagonist in all. And Messi is now close to become the best player of all time. I never seen this good since 2009 with his Barcelona. Also there is no xavi or iniesta to help. It takes time to come up in the top or be there in a long time. Wins he the World Cup, he will be the best player of all time in my eye

Everyone forgets Ronaldo at 35 was tearing up his 3rd major league

@arnold-hu4vk

Жыл бұрын

in a team that had won the league for the previous 8 or so seasons.

@delayedcreator4783

Жыл бұрын

and messi at 35 won the world cup

@tyronelorenzovalentio3414

6 ай бұрын

A league that Quagriella was scoring as well matw😂😂

"they need to be nerfed"😂

86 Argentina is not an inferior side at all in comparison to Messi 2022 When u have a striker called bastituta

Yes easily

Anyone who isn't a Ronaldo fanboy (not to take anything away from what he has achieved) & actually watches football, knows there is no debate. Messi is the GOAT whether he wins the WC or not. Even as a Brazil fan, I'm hoping he does though, for his sake & to shut down this 'debate'.

1. Messi 2. Pele 3. Maradonna 4. CR7 5. Cruyf 6.R9 7.Zidane 8.Ronaldinho 9. Franz Beckenbeur 10. George Best

Diego Armando Maradona!

The debate over: Messi is Tha G.O.A.T

What do you mean "is"?