Government pulling certification from company supplying populace with rifle armor? Never…….

@damienblackburn5459

8 ай бұрын

I wouldn't read that. There's a lot of armor manufacturers out there that supply NIJ certified armor to anyone who pays, even through distributors. And to the average civvie, NIJ certification doesn't have a hard test to pass. It matters much more to government buyers, where NIJ certification with regards to body armor is *mandatory* through policy or law.

@kamehamehaX300

2 ай бұрын

@@damienblackburn5459so yea, the government hates when civilians have what they have, I agree with the first commenter.

@damienblackburn5459

2 ай бұрын

@@kamehamehaX300 Congrats, you missed my point entirely.

@kamehamehaX300

2 ай бұрын

@@damienblackburn5459 what is your point? It’s unclear. You listed facts, but what’s your point? I made my point; that we need everything the military has.

@damienblackburn5459

2 ай бұрын

@@kamehamehaX300 The military doesn't have this. They don't use NIJ certs, they use SAPI. The point I made was very clear: there's loads of armor companies out there that provide NIJ certified armor already. This isn't a conspiracy. A lot of the response I've heard from the head of RMA has me concerned. Sure, there's some fuckiness from CJTEC and the NTL, but his response is also quite bizarre.

- RMA has/had the cheapest NIJ Certified Level IV plates I've seen anywhere. Easy to imagine the feds not looking kindly on that.

@Im_TheSaint

9 ай бұрын

Whats funny is that it was also the best for a while. Still is imo.

@nicolas8098

9 ай бұрын

@@Im_TheSaint best for price maybe but best other than that? of course it's not lol

@jakejake7162

9 ай бұрын

It’s important to note that they failed this year, prior years are fine so if you own any older ones they’re probably fine.

@BuffRANGE

9 ай бұрын

Correct. This plate has passed every FIT since it's certification. Well except for now the one in Jan.

@psychopathmedia

9 ай бұрын

Wouldn't want us affordably defending ourselves against tyranny!

I have these plates, heavy as crap but I trust them. Honestly it’s pretty amazing how well they hold up…just as long as the hit doesn’t stop your heart it’s all good.

Theyre from the government and theyre not here to help

@BuffRANGE

9 ай бұрын

Are you sure? They're pretty stern that they're always here to help.

@99cobra2881

9 ай бұрын

@@BuffRANGE Depends on how a person interprets the word "help"

RMA is good stuff. It took a 120gr solid copper from a 7mm Rem Mag at over 3570 for me...

I trust buffman testing not NIJ testing.

@fujimi715

9 ай бұрын

He's not corrupt. Government agencies are......

@psychopathmedia

9 ай бұрын

Yeah if the choice is between a KZread channel and the US government, I'll choose the KZread channel

@fujimi715

9 ай бұрын

@nsf001 hope you are being sarcastic. Government wants you to think everything they do is better

@psychopathmedia

9 ай бұрын

@@fujimi715 That was my point; governments are less trustworthy than KZread channels in almost all cases

@KenFBoyton

9 ай бұрын

Mr. GunsandGear did the same test and crazy enough, SAME RESULTS! Weird... maybe the gubment is trying to trick us... Nah, they'd never do that!

I served with Blake Waldrop (founder and owner of RMA) in the Marine Corps. He's one of the most stand-up guys, and proud patriot, I've ever met. I've only owned his plates and even wear them in my line of work. Additionally, I not only trust them with my own life, but the life of my wife, as well. Thanks for keeping it honest and shredding the online trolls. Semper Fi.

Nice to know my M855A1 has a chance of penetrating IV plates Less nice knowing that there's the same chance in the opposite direction

@sickdickop6118

9 ай бұрын

Where did you get your m855a1 from????

@Token_Black_Guy

8 ай бұрын

Where u get at m855a1 at tho

@S.T.A.L.K.E.R.Enjoyer

8 ай бұрын

i wouldn't count on it. the M855A1 will likely only penetrate if the plate is weakened from several shots beforehand from a different caliber

@RogerCharlamange

7 ай бұрын

@@Hawaiianbro10 Officially M855 is to "pierce hard targets" not to be "AP" but "Hard targets" and "AP" are relatively similar terms. Plywood and drywall will not stand up to a 5.56 unless it's quite a few layers, and if you're shooting through 15 layers of plywood I guess my question is what the fuck are you doing? What situation are you in?

@Grooove_e

5 ай бұрын

​@@Hawaiianbro10 you can, just check gunbroker every once in a while. There's some on there right now for $2.50/rd if you live in a free state. Same seller also has M80A1, running out fast though

How well does the NIJ do ongoing inspections on their contracted labs to ensure they remain competent to do certification testing?

@BuffRANGE

9 ай бұрын

That's a very good question. I am not aware of any policy or quality standards set forth that the NIJ has for labs to be compared against.

@psychopathmedia

9 ай бұрын

Being certified really doesn't matter as long as they're tested to the NIJ spec IMO. All the NIJ certification proves is that the company paid the government for permission to put a certification sticker on the website

@damienblackburn5459

8 ай бұрын

@@psychopathmedia Not really true. There's a lot more to NIJ testing than that. They have to undergo a battery of tests, including drop, temperature, and ballistic. The manufacturer is also subject to Follow-up Inspection Testing, where someone from NIJ comes out every 6-10 months and pulls a set of plates for ballistic testing, along with checking their documentation, quality control standards, materials records, and more. It ensures that the product that you put forward for testing is the same one that the consumer is getting, rather than someone pulling a fast one and sending something much different for testing and getting something else, as we've seen a few armor companies do.

@RangeTimeRicky24

4 ай бұрын

They really don't do follow up testing unless the company requests it.

Excellent test as always. Glad to see it's a testing issue, not a plate issue

@BuffRANGE

9 ай бұрын

Thanks again!

Thank you for the work you do!

Excellent work!

@BuffRANGE

9 ай бұрын

Many thanks!

Great work buff!

@BuffRANGE

9 ай бұрын

Thanks!

I think that NIJ lab should have to have ppl come in to make sure they are doing everything correctly or let you take over lol

@damienblackburn5459

8 ай бұрын

They do. You are free to send a representative to observe the testing.

Matt is doing the RMA controversy! WOOT!

PolenarTactical mentioned that they sent you a plate for testing, looking forward to your test!

@BuffRANGE

9 ай бұрын

Yep. Currently emailing back and forth.

@BuffRANGE

9 ай бұрын

Yep. Currently emailing back and forth.

@psychopathmedia

9 ай бұрын

I'm requiring that all shots be taken from the slav squat position

I would not be surprised if it was an intentional fail to undermine an affordable plate. A move that would help keep body armor off of many chests.

@BuffRANGE

5 ай бұрын

I almost side with the fact that the lab made a mistake and they had no way to take a corrective action, and the NIJ just went with it.

I bought a carrier with these last year, when i heard the news i was worried. Now im just pissed, because it sounds like good old government incompetence.

@psychopathmedia

9 ай бұрын

I don't have any RMA plates but I'd probably still buy them if I didn't already have a set of III and IV plates. My IIIA vest is BulletSafe which has a bad rep but the version I have is officially NIJ certified even though I doubt it's any different from the older model in practice. Being certified really doesn't matter as long as they're tested to the NIJ spec IMO. All the NIJ certification proves is that the company paid the government for permission to put a certification sticker on the website

@Riname-K

9 ай бұрын

There could be a pretty bad mixup since this has never seemed to have happened before, or the NIJ is seeing something that RMA doesn't, or there's more to the story than what has been painted so far for public eyes.

BUFFMAN! 🦍

all right, so after watching a couple of buffman's vids, I'm thinking of getting the RMA 1092 gen2. but can you do a video on sizing? I've seen a couple other vids on sizing (measuring nip to nip, collar bone to belly button, etc).. but explanation is pretty vague. would a 5'8 170lbs guy wear the same size that a 170lb 6'0 guy wear? I'm 5'8 165lbs in decent shape. what do I get? I'm sure i'm either a S or M

Investigations surrounding failed FIT tests involve more than the initial ballistics test. Manufacturing methods and supply sources are also analyzed. Nothing from the NIJ has indicated that the penetration of the armor was a standalone reason for exclusion from the program. Be part of the program then you have to play by their rules. I shot my 1155 after the FIT failure and had an M855 pass through 3" from first shot .30 M2AP. Maybe they have fixed their issue. But, best strategy is to admit where there could be improvements, correct them in an obvious transparent way and move forward. Everyone can do better and no manufacturer is perfect.

@BuffRANGE

10 күн бұрын

The reports that RMA shared from NIJ showed no material or process variation . At this point RMA has an appeal with the AG and they will likely recertify the 1155 under NIj 07.

@VortexLimbus

10 күн бұрын

@@BuffRANGE Do you have a link for RMA's shared reports indicating that the NIJ concluded there were no other issues? Would like to see it as we are planning to purchase several dozen plates before the end of the year.

@BuffRANGE

10 күн бұрын

@@VortexLimbuslet me see if I can find them. They were on their website. Do you have pics of the M855 pen on the 1155 you shot? I just finished the 1165 demo and that’s a definite upgrade over the 1155. I’ll have to get the video finished.

@BuffRANGE

10 күн бұрын

rmadefense.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/Exhibit-C2.jpg And rmadefense.com/rma-vehemently-disagrees-with-nij-safety-notice-05-2023-to-level-iv-model-1155/

@VortexLimbus

9 күн бұрын

@@BuffRANGE I do but I don't want to get in the middle of all this. Thanks for the links. We like RMA and just wanted to see what the resolution was. Unfortunately, we have to follow the advice of the NIJ when selecting our products. We have talked about the 1165. The backing on that plate allows upper 30s and low 40s mm on shot 2, not sure we want to go with a thinned out backing plate. Someone showed me an NIJ lab test report on that model and it was basically a two shot plate with shot 2 almost hitting the 44mm max. I am not sure if it could routinely pass a drop test with so little protection on the strike face. Looking forward to your next video on it. I think we would rather have a "corrected" 1155 with the NIJ stamp.

Could you test out some Mira tactical plates they seem pretty good for the weight size and price

@BuffRANGE

9 ай бұрын

I just got one in. It’ll be a bit. They don’t have edge to edge strike face.

I keep seeing people get m855a1 but I can't find any!!!😭😭😭

I thought the M2AP threat they used was a .30-06 AP round, not 300 Win Mag.

@BuffRANGE

9 ай бұрын

The M2AP load originated in 30-06. However in order to achieve 2,880 fps, the lab uses a universal receiver and can easily hit target velocities without exceeding cartridge pressure maxes. I can't, so I use that same bullet and I load it in .300 Win Mag. The cartridge used to deliver the bullet to the target doesn't make a difference. It's the bullet itself and the spec'd velocity :D

@joecentral-o9984

9 ай бұрын

He explained it. He needed velocity that 30-06 can't give you.

@sbreheny

9 ай бұрын

@@BuffRANGE Thanks - if you'll please excuse my persistence, I don't understand what a universal receiver has to do with it. What cartridge case do the NIJ labs use? A .30-06 case but loaded to a higher than spec pressure? How/why did they come up with a threat spec (2880 fps with an M2AP bullet) which doesn't exist in real life?

@BuffRANGE

9 ай бұрын

@@sbreheny I'd have to ask them, but I'm guessing .30-06. They handload every single one of these to meet spec. They likely came up with 2,880 because it represents a worst case scenario. If a plate stops said threat that speed, there's no variables in real life that would cause a penetration at an engagement distance? IIRC the original M2AP spec was like 2,750 at 78'. Don't remember if that was from a 1903 or M1G..

@sbreheny

9 ай бұрын

@@BuffRANGE Thanks!

Do you know the "ballpark" minimum velocity that something like a 45 gr TSX would need to go to pass thru 3A?

@BuffRANGE

9 ай бұрын

It all depends on the IIIA type. I would say the min would probably be 1600-1700 fps on Aramid, but PE might require in excess of 2000 fps...

@ShastaBean

9 ай бұрын

@@BuffRANGE thanks! I shot a few test loads yesterday and got them up to 1875 fps...which is about the max that I personally care to try. 350 ft-lbs seems like a good number to stay under, imo. They sure did group nicely...even though very small sample. I think the 37 gr Makers might be the better pistol option for that bullet eXpanding design, but need to put them into gel to compare. I have doubts about the 45 gr TSX opening in clear-gel, but need to put that to the test. I saw your video with the 53 gr TSX didn't really open well. Maybe from the rifle 45 gr will? TBD. I just got a box of the R&R 37x yesterday and have a couple boxes of the 37 gr Maker's X to try my own loads, but R&R I'm guessing is already up in that velocity I'd probably not go much beyond, if at all. So my loads would really just be to see if I can either beat the accuracy, and/or not have to wait 2-3 months to get a box.

I dont know much about armor but id imagine as long as it can stop the M2AP its still good. If youre getting shot more than 1 or 2 times youre fucked even if your plate can take more than one shot lol

You probably mentioned this before but are you loading some of those 300 WM to 308 velocity?

@BuffRANGE

9 ай бұрын

At times yes. Sometimes there's a line where I don't feel comfortable pushing the .308 load that hot, so I just upgrade to 300 WM :D

How's the RMA lvl 4 1165 plates compare to these 1155s?

@BuffRANGE

4 ай бұрын

On paper they should be like the Highcom 4s17m but a little better. I haven’t tested them yet.

Many armor companies use Chinese manufacturing after they get certification and that's why certs get pulled.

@BuffRANGE

4 ай бұрын

That would be evident during FIT that raw materials changed.

6:58 my dumbass thought that fly was on my desk and smacked my monitor 🤣🤣🤣

@BuffRANGE

3 ай бұрын

Gosh dang bugs!

Have you seen the voodoo valor multi curve plates yet im wondering if they are the same as the guardian gear plates and have you heard of shadow armor systems before?

@BuffRANGE

9 ай бұрын

Voodoo Plates look a LOT like LongFri plates and even the NIJ cert one they have in level III is LongFri.. Guardian gear also lists the same LongFri Level III plate. One could very well ASSUME that both Voodoo and Guardian source their plates from the same place, and are just private labeled.

@TheJoeml85

9 ай бұрын

@@BuffRANGE are they decent plates I watched a video in the guardian gear plates and they held up well against 30cal ap rounds do you have any idea how thick they are and I would just order longfri but there level iv plates are 9.5 by 11.5

@TheJoeml85

9 ай бұрын

@@BuffRANGE what about the level iv plates the guardian gear and voodoo level iv plates almost seem the same to me I dunno what plates to get was looking at the lighter shellback level iv plates voodoo valor guardian gear or the shadow armor systems can’t decide what I want haha

See this plate take like five shots, what would be the steel equivalent that could handle those rounds?

@BuffRANGE

9 ай бұрын

There isn’t one. You’d likely need a 1/2” thick piece of RHA at min.

@kenofken9458

7 ай бұрын

That would be something close to 70 or 80 pounds I think. There's a reason steel didn't catch on in the age of firearms.

So much fiya, soooo satisfying 😆😆

@BuffRANGE

9 ай бұрын

Very!

@drewwood2941

9 ай бұрын

​ @BuffRANGE that is the longest residual flame i've seen yet! so satisfying!

@BuffRANGE

9 ай бұрын

@@drewwood2941 It's why I love that stuff!

I think AP loaded into 300 winmag for that velocity isn't a realistic threat to begin with considering you had to custom make that round

@BuffRANGE

9 ай бұрын

The NIJ spec'd the velocity at 2,880 fps. Given I don't have a .30-06 with a barrel long enough to get to the target velocity, and surplus ammo has degraded over time, I'm effectively using .300 Win Mag as a universal .30 caliber receiver. 300 Win Mag can drive M2AP up to 3,300 fps in a 24" barrel, and yes that threat is very unrealistic, and only very high end plates stop that. TL:DR ignore the case I am using the bullet in. The NIJ level IV/RF3 threat calls for an M2AP bullet going 2,880 fps. How I get that target velocity has no bearing.

it's funny how all of a sudden the 1155s became "incapable" of stopping a M2AP round. based on your video and several others, it looks like the NIJ obviously just fucked something up. it very clearly is able to stop m2ap.

@BuffRANGE

8 ай бұрын

I agree :D

@BuffRANGE thanks for these verification videos. What do you do with the RMA plate covers when you are done testing? Any chance I can get these from you? I can pay for shipping costs. THX

@BuffRANGE

9 ай бұрын

which covers? the fabric covers? or the backing material? I pretty much toss these things in the trash when I'm done with them.

@40utub3

9 ай бұрын

@@BuffRANGE the RMA branded fabric plate covers

@BuffRANGE

9 ай бұрын

@@40utub3any particular reason you want them?

@40utub3

9 ай бұрын

@@BuffRANGE nothing comes to mind. I trust the RMA brand and what it stands for, and would just place them on the safe door with some corny caption to STAY IN THE FIGHT

@nunyabusiness3082

6 ай бұрын

​@@40utub3that sounds dumb

LUFFY?

@BuffRANGE

4 ай бұрын

5th Gear ;)

RoaR

@BuffRANGE

9 ай бұрын

Puff the Magic Dragon!

The NIJ doesn't fail plates without a legitimate reason (or at least usually they don't) so really it would be interesting to see how this develops. One thing to consider is that the NIJ doesn't really do public outreach beyond stuff like advisories, hence why we don't see any kind of response from them posted everywhere like RMA and their unstable damage control measures. Either way, best to keep internet theories to oneself til the verdict from both sides goes public whether it's a public statement or court documents if it goes that far.

@cc-vg4ed

9 ай бұрын

I would also take into consideration that if the NIJ says they or the lab messed up, how many other companies are going to come after them? They have a lot on the line as well.

@BuffRANGE

9 ай бұрын

Rightfully so. The physical evidence presented seems to show RMA's plate per FIT did not fail (backface is not tested for FIT), and a mistake has been made. If the gov't has evidence to prove otherwise it seems poor for them to not end the entire years worth of back and forth. It sounds like this is going to end up going to court.. I'm curious if you would expand on "Unstable damage control". They pulled the lot from the initial issue. Ran numerous tests on plates to ensure their design is sound. NIJ root cause analysis deemed there was no variation of manufacturing or materials. The plate has passed FIT every time since it's inception.

@Riname-K

9 ай бұрын

@@cc-vg4ed the NIJ has representatives and “subcontract” out the lab testing to accredited labs. These accredited labs are expected to be technologically equipped and capable of conducting scientific tests, and is a third party laboratory that is neutral with no ties and affiliation with clients, companies, organizations…etc. Then you have NVLAP, maybe a few others. I don’t think we can exactly say the NIJ themselves are potentially the ones to blame when you have specialized entities that that flows in the armor testing system. If the NIJ themselves really are to blame then they will be, however if the snag is actually somewhere else? Then what? I wouldn’t put all my bets that RMA is going to be clean, as we haven’t heard any sort of official statement on the matter from the NIJs side. It’s difficult to draw any picture if we only have the story from one side.

@oldmcdonald5788

9 ай бұрын

How does government cock taste? That's the only question that comes to mind when I see sad sad people humping the leg of the NIJ like this. The NIJ is, and always has been, a corrupt government clown show. The internet obsession with "NIJ certified" has been the hands down worst thing that ever hit the body armor industry.

H380 2950fps 30-06 m2AP...

@BuffRANGE

9 ай бұрын

H380?

@Milspecpoptart

9 ай бұрын

​​@@BuffRANGEhogdon h380. It has a reference on the label for 30-06 with 175gr bullet. max charge on the bottle says over 2900fps. My test velocity of 1 shot was 2991 with a black tip. Primer started to flatten out, so its definitely on the top end, but not something id sh!t myself about. Brass looks fine.

@Milspecpoptart

9 ай бұрын

Gave it a try since i dont have a 300wm. Old surplus went about 2770fps like your tests show.

@BuffRANGE

9 ай бұрын

@@Milspecpoptartthanks for the info :).

I want to seek business cooperation

@BuffRANGE

7 ай бұрын

Business cooperation with who ? I only test ballistic materials.

NIJ lives for profit.

Lot and lot of blah blah blah. 😇😇

@BuffRANGE

4 ай бұрын

I’m sorry I talk a lot sometimes if that’s what you meant

Any opinions on the 1165? I'm looking to grab a pair, but I haven't seen any tests.

@BuffRANGE

4 ай бұрын

I'm trying to get my hands on some..

@americanheretic7993

4 ай бұрын

@BuffRANGE dude thanks for the reply. I have a set of gt2 and HA plates that I got in 21 before I knew any better. I hate to eat that loss, but I need something I can rely on now. Hopefully you'll get a set to test.