This proves that a shit strategy is a winner if you have total control of your mental game.

Finally a useful vid on this topic.

Great analysis thanks Alvin

Great video Alvin. Really enjoyed the breakdown of the stats. Thanks for doing this! 👍😀

@AlvinTeachesPoker

6 ай бұрын

what I've been shocked by is how these bots with such obvious leaks are able to still run over people so easily O_o

@you393

6 ай бұрын

@AlvinTeachesPoker reason for that is even though strategy is somewhat flawed but they don't deviate from it as they are programmed. For humans its hard to rigorously stay on same strategy so due to more deviation the strategy for human players becomes less profitable. Most pros have practiced and studied poker so much that they are able to maintain their strategy much better

@AlvinTeachesPoker

6 ай бұрын

@@you393 errr, well if you just see their preflop errors you can attack them rigorously to the point where their "discipline" edge isn't going to overwhelm you

@coltontaylor406

2 ай бұрын

​@AlvinTeachesPoker Are these the same bots that were running in the 200 blitz pool and sharing hole cards (as per the old, more widely publicized PLO scandal a while back), or is this a new crop playing in reg speeds as well? The 200 blitz bots from a couple of years ago also engaged in some odd chip dumping behavior that (I think) was for stat manipulation/getting through various security protocols. Most of the regs seemed to think they were beating the bots but were confused as to why nearly all of the human regs seemed to be running way under aiev... If it's the same crop of bots then deciphering their play style, winrates and true aievbb/100 might be a lot more difficult than you'd think. Running strats that rely on knowing that 2 or 4 cards are dead in a given hand will really change things wrt stat readouts, especially if a chip dumping ring is involved. To be clear I'm sure that the bots I'm referring to existed and existed in the way I'm referring to, have plenty of evidence, etc. I'm just wondering if they might be the same bots you looked at here or if you're sure from your analysis/keeping up with the thread that this is a different set of bots. Someone would have had to look at a reasonably large/well filtered number of hh's manually in order to be sure. Or the individual bot sn's would have to be regularly operating in regspeeds with no other bot sn's seated.

Is this what defending online poker has become? If you think you're a step ahead of the bots, you won't be for long.

@AlvinTeachesPoker

6 ай бұрын

Yeah and certainly the incompetence of security teams isn't helping the ecosystem.

@G0DofRock

6 ай бұрын

@@AlvinTeachesPoker It's all in security, people are lazy and stupid.

@jeffshackleford3152

6 ай бұрын

​@@G0DofRockmaybe, the higher ups don't want to spend money on good security people. I am sure their security people are doing the best they can with what they got ( isn't good enough and don't have much).

Hi Alvin. Do You know where can I get Pluribus hands?

i played on acr like 5 years ago or something like that, and back then there was already bots who had same stats, over 50% wwsf, and i remember the 66 60 66 cbet pattern, and i reported then, i made a 2+2 post, basicaly, 25% of the reg players playing at acr at that point, were the same bot, one of the nicknames i remember was "sonantgiggles", he had such an insane winrate i was like "how this guy can be this good", and then i started to see other players playing exactly like him and i realised what was going on.

@AlvinTeachesPoker

Ай бұрын

Might be a skill issue not a bot issue

@antihackerify

Ай бұрын

@@AlvinTeachesPoker not sure if u are beeing ironic or not 😄

Do you think similar stat bots are in the bodog 200+ games? Also shoutout to your cat making sure to get in frame

@AlvinTeachesPoker

6 ай бұрын

Yes, I think people imported these strategies right over. It's obviously harder to spot in bovada, but there are some similar nonsense lines and sizings going on.

@danpointon9181

6 ай бұрын

100% happening at 500 and 1k bodog, often across 10+ tables at any one time. Some differences (changes made?) to the strats outlined here however, these players seem a lot looser with opens, and using 3x sizings quite a lot with some 2.5 and 2x randomly thrown in. They also play HU (pretty poorly), not sure if that is to start games or what. Also think they are often multiple accounts at the same table, with what looks like possibly some collusion going on amongst them too

What site do you recommend which you suspect might have the least amount of bots?

@AlvinTeachesPoker

6 ай бұрын

As I mentioned, Bovada is still pretty juicy despite the bots. I think Pokerbros is an often overlooked option, but that has its own quagmire of exit scandals and RTA usage problems in itself.

Any thoughts on whatever is happening over at ignition? Lots of talk of collusion and bots over on the 2+2 thread.

@AlvinTeachesPoker

6 ай бұрын

In truth I've gone through a lot of 3way pots in my database and not found evidence for consistent collusion at 500-2k and the 200 ring games have been so soft that its hard to argue that's rigged.

"You can do all pre-flop things perfectly but then you have a couple of very obvious gaping holes" I just want to say that this is very similar to most human players nowadays. Everyone knows how to read opening charts and when you do a population tendencies you can see that their opening frequency is pretty much GTO, but other things are not (like calling and 3betting). That means that you don't really have to adjust much, you just don't want to make the same mistakes and they will lose money. So for example, a simple bot could just open perfectly and play against a raise perfectly and he would be better than 90% of the players because most players just open perfectly but don't know how to defend. They don't call or 3bet with good frequencies.

@srki22

6 ай бұрын

Also, one tip on what to study: if you order your hands by pot_size*frequency played you can see that on the top of the list is SB vs BB and BTN vs BB. That means that you can just focus on these 2 things at first. Later on focus on BB vs other positions and only after that focus on 3bet pots, BTN vs SB and BTN vs BB.

@AlvinTeachesPoker

6 ай бұрын

But that's the entire thing, these bots seem pretty simple but they don't play anywhere near perfectly GTO, nor do I think that is their goal: if there were flocks of bots playing perfectly and too "robot-like," that may have set off security alerts more than pretending to be a somewhat weaker player, opening 3BB, cold-calling, and the like. It's much more efficient, en masse, to have many bots that are winning 2BB and moving up and down stakes (which looks fishy) rather than have 40 bots absolutely crushing people using solver lines and then everyone knows the jig is up.

19:02 cat!

@AlvinTeachesPoker

6 ай бұрын

Trunks, king of the loft!

Any info about the Global Poker player pool?

@AlvinTeachesPoker

6 ай бұрын

No, it's probably harder when there aren't downloadable HHs to parse in h2Note

Only thing that can save online poker is virtual reality, as platforms can control the entire enviornment in virtual reality

@AlvinTeachesPoker

6 ай бұрын

but can't I just have someone next to me telling me what to do? what is VR going to do, monitor every player's audio and video feed while they play as a huge invasion of privacy? I can't play poker and "let my nuts hang" as they say at the deli?

@you393

6 ай бұрын

@AlvinTeachesPoker thats an interesting point, i think atleast for high stakes or high enough stakes people who don't want to get cheated by bots can participate in vr game willingly.

@AlvinTeachesPoker

6 ай бұрын

@@you393 I think if you have to wear pants you should just play live

Hey alvin im playing nl10 on ggpoker do they have the same problem with bots?

@AlvinTeachesPoker

6 ай бұрын

I don't know, I doubt many bots are at such low stakes and gg has better security but uhm superusers

@krisamagus1

6 ай бұрын

@@SuperBuddy1008 I play the same pool, can you share some tips or help with some good advice? I might be a winning player except I tilt hard all the time, I'm not sure.

@AlvinTeachesPoker

4 ай бұрын

​@krisamagus1 so you're a big losing player because you're a tilt monkey, don't delude yourself into thinking you can be a winning player with poor emotional control

People under3bet and underdefend BB. Also people tend to over-call generally speaking postflop and vs preflop 3bet, so defending BB becomes tighter, and our 3bets should become more merged, because so many of those bottom end hands rely on our bluffs working X amount of the time. So these stats really aren't that concerning imo, look like people implementing pool exploits. I do believe there are bots all over online poker though, and it's getting worse, i'm glad to see someone taking it seriously... I see very suspicious action constantly in multiway pots on stars, who are the pinnacle of game security according to the poker community. If that's the case, then it must be REALLY bad everywhere else xD. Maybe look into their multi-way spots. If they're not showing signs of collusion, just counter-exploit them, hard. If they are showing signs of collusion, you're screwed, don't play them.

@AlvinTeachesPoker

4 ай бұрын

Cool thanks

What is their RFI size? I have seen a lot of players using weird non standard RFIs lately. I thought it was a way for colluding players to find each other on reg 6 max cash tables. Maybe that is another thing you can look for in these people's strategy. Also do they tend to show their cards after they bluff you? I noticed a strange uptick in that happening as well. Also I think pool in general is weak SB vs BB and it is insanely easy to steal blinds if you go 4 or 5 BB on SB RFI. Overall though, these may actually be players because I play kind of similarly to these bots just as an exploit. Id say a good majority of people play flop fold and overfold to 4 bets. I usually over pit double flush turns to punish people for when their draws brick. Same with any turn that makes straights possible. Because people love to chase draws online. I will start writing down what exactly I do based on pool tendencies I have noticed. I am just starting my GTO journey and have played mostly very exploit based for a long time ( I also just started playing again after a 10 plus year break ).

@AlvinTeachesPoker

6 ай бұрын

These rfi 2,,2.5 and 3bb and buyin for various sizes, probably to avoid security. But they don't seem to collude together much!

@jeffshackleford3152

6 ай бұрын

@@AlvinTeachesPoker If you can get in contact with those people, if you could I think there are set mining bots in some zone games as well? Maybe on the reg tables. Not sure though, it seems like there are a strange number of people who sit there and set mine all day. I couldn't do that personally, far too boring, but a bot would do that perfectly.

@AlvinTeachesPoker

6 ай бұрын

@@jeffshackleford3152 how do you know those just aren't regular players?

@jeffshackleford3152

6 ай бұрын

@@AlvinTeachesPoker I don't. That is why I am asking. I can't imagine, as a human, sitting there and constantly folding for 12 hours a day just to set mine someone and possibly get paid off. Obviously that doesn't mean others can't do it, I just can't imagine it.

@AlvinTeachesPoker

6 ай бұрын

@@jeffshackleford3152 I don't know what that has to do with bots, sorry.

acr may be the owner of the bots that would not surprise me , people who are in this kind of indsutry dont care the way to make money

So the bots are programmed to make the correct folds

isn't it super good to fell into a pool with shit bot ? you can probably pull super accurate exploit for massive pot with way more regularity than against a human

@AlvinTeachesPoker

6 ай бұрын

No, because it's a loss in opportunity cost. Especially in mtts its very hard to get an icm edge compared to the average player. Every seat the bot takes is one less whale and one more person taking 6-8bb from the fish.

@karthage3637

6 ай бұрын

@@AlvinTeachesPoker in mtt sure but in cash ? A human do not have a static state of mind so the EV of your exploit will fluctuate across the game while you could hit the bot again and again

@AlvinTeachesPoker

6 ай бұрын

@@karthage3637 or you could play against a whale and smoke them for a much higher winrate. the goal of poker isn't to win money, it's to win the MOST money.

The 3b/4b stats are obvious. *They're trying to see flops. Always. Because they do not realize or visualize their equity until then.* Their limp stats follow suit. They are also disguising their holdings. Yes, they are going off the rails multi-way more often. However, so do solvers to begin with, after 2 players in a hand. For them, it is maximizing pot size, and giving them the advantage of exploiting the weaknesses or vulnerabilities, shown both by Polk & Bart Hanson on 2 different platforms, with similar tactics. There is a reason they are crushing while seeing multi-way flops, and bad 3b/4b strategies. As soon as they see their equity from exploit, after the flop, *it does not matter who or how many are in the hand.* It is a perfect fold everytime, or a win/correct decision every time, based on the equity they have been able to see by spoofing info-transfer packets, or man in the middling via proxy from game server to client using un-salted hashes or cracked network keys.

@AlvinTeachesPoker

6 ай бұрын

I don't think half of that is going on, tbh. They are much much simpler than that.

@RainingYayo

5 ай бұрын

Interesting, please elaborate sir!

@SamOween

3 ай бұрын

That is a huge conspiracy theory, have you got any evidence for that packet spoofing stuff? If what you're saying is true, I can open Wire shark and become a 20bb crusher instantly while playing NL 2k

Is there bots in micro stakes too? Saw some guy play 10 hands out of 300

@AlvinTeachesPoker

3 ай бұрын

That can just be a tight dude

House bots milking clients, what a big surprize ! C'mon it is obvious there are on every major site.

@AlvinTeachesPoker

6 ай бұрын

They aren't house bots, I don't think. There's a fine line between able detective and conspiracy theorist.

All the sites run their own bots. They also have all kinds of shills, donkeys etc. working for them, and frankly I think it's gotten to the point where they have a unique interface for every player, and they can simply just slide the bar to any position and set your EV% where they want. My experience on these sites over the last 6 months has just been ridiculous, and it's not bots..... The first time I complained, GG told me to change my username. That right there is an admission they can't control the bs attached to HUDS and player ID mining, as well as an admission they, GG, are not part of any larger poker community. All the reporting and statistics sites, and international standings, etc. They simply just told me, fuk that, change your name. It's unbelievable, actually, but I have the email. But that doesn't even explain it. I know they flat out cheat me with the cards, I know they do. Anyone who saw my last 2000 , shit 20 000, hands there would question life and math and the universal laws of physics... oh, or, or, GG and PS could be cheating people, what a novel idea.... Why would they? Why would they risk it? Lmao, why would Volkswagen? Because it didn't cost them their business. Why would any company lie? Lol, they all do every day. The world is out to scam you. Do you believe that? This is gambling, if you are willing to gamble, the world will have no sympathy for your troubles. They know this. They capitalize on it. We are powerless. It's always that way. People in the casino even, you can't get them organized and united. People give a company credit for being like an angel of a person, they'd never give to an actual person. I'll give my history to anyone interested, it's a complete farce, and THEN, I complained a lot, and guess what, it actually got worse. Nothing but river, river, river, river, no cashout -boom - river, no cashout - boom- river, cashout, miss, cashout, miss, no cashout - boom - river, river, river, river - Oh, account empty...... like 10 x 80% ev lose, win one or two, lose ten more. It's not variance, it can't be. That means I would have to win 500 hands in a row at some point. And it's not just the cards, it's the players raising, 3 betting, 4 betting with garbage and then THAT'S the 80% you lose. Over and over and over, until broke. It's ridiculous.

@AlvinTeachesPoker

2 ай бұрын

Sounds like a skill issue

@blackopal3138

2 ай бұрын

@@AlvinTeachesPoker lol, ya, that's my point, it sounds like it... but, the cards say otherwise.. There are things I'm willing to accept in that option, but flat out not skilled enough is bs. I'm always learning and know I need to keep improving, I'm not a fool like one might expect in this situation. But learning is where I start to question. I don't see how I can do better than getting it in with the better hand. Even when I win, it's because the low freq events I'm the underdog, is when I win. So, how do I translate that into learning how to win? I'm supposed to know when I'm going to fluke out? I'm a player. I control my tables, regs stay away from me. I win, 1st place, in huge Mtts, all the time. I don't even GTO, and my stats on a HUD are all green or yellow bars. If I could have 1 or 2 hands a day back, bc that's how hard I work, and am patient, creative and smart enough to get myself to those crucial hands and be the 'favorite', I'd be livin on easy street. But they control my experience. Like I said, maybe I have issues that are a bigger effect than I realixe, i.e. bankroll management, stakes jumping, game jumping.. but another clue, is watching pros on stream, play 7,8 hours, and never having a bad enough run to kill their day. In my day, the win can never go too big. That is a dead give away. Every hand that could really mean something goes the other way, for 6 months. Even shitty retarded players are going to have longer streaks. It's a joke, how about that?

@blackopal3138

2 ай бұрын

@@AlvinTeachesPoker but, actually I appreciate you being the only one to give a straight answer, of your opinion. I fkn hate coddling or whatever, rose colored glasses. Just want to know the Truth, about anything in life.

@Dyl3423

2 ай бұрын

@@blackopal3138 "regs stay away from me/ i crush huge mtts all the time/ i dont even gto/im patient hard working creative and smart but sometimes i lose 80/20s" sounds like youre playing above your opponents skill level with almost no flaws except some bad luck and some bankroll management. it should probably turn around in no time