Hey Pyro! Thank you for watching the video! I wholeheartedly agree with your takes on datamining and also players not having the ability to sometimes think critically or remove themselves emotionally and take a look at the game, or perhaps the way they play it and see inside themselves that they might be a contributing factor to the game not being as fun these days. I'll be the first to say that WoW isn't perfect and Blizzard have definitely had issues in the past, but some people will solely condemn WoW due to these past decisions: AP grinding, chores, even the Garrison. Whatever it may be. Players will complain. I think your take about Asmongold probably rings true for everybody on some level, because I definitely relate to the lack of friendship these days. The game was infinitely more enjoyable for me when I had my social circle, but most of them reside in Classic WoW now. It was a joy to listen to your thoughts, your stories and memories. Thank you again for watching!

@Dadbot

23 күн бұрын

People will play the same game for 10 plus years then complain that game isn’t good. Like as if they didn’t just spend half their life playing it. WoW is STILL just as good as it ever was. It’s a great game. There’s hours of stuff to do daily. Lots of content and engagement. But people play it for 8 hours a day then complain there’s nothing to do in it. Wow hasn’t changed. People have.

I was 30 in 04'. I was even playing the original Warcraft as an adult. My adult life hasn't changed since I started playing WoW with the exception that I got married in 07'. Then I got my wife hooked on the game. All these years later, we're still playing. The problem is, until MoP Remix, (which we're enjoying thoroughly), we hadn't done group content or really enjoyed the game at all since Legion. Even before Legion, we were already floundering on how we feel about the game. The MoP of 2014 is the last time we were in a guild with like minded players. Players we had ran with since Vanilla or TBC. But soon after the expansion hit, a lot of our online friends drifted away. Even my own brother stopped playing. When you're an adult, time passes by much quicker without you realizing it. I feel like it's only been a few years since I started playing WoW, but it's been two decades. I've worked the same job, have the same off days, the same routine. It's like Groundhog Day. To me, the only thing that has changed in WoW are the players. Everyone talks about "Barrens Chat" but I didn't experience that myself. Everyone that I interacted with in the world was awesome. Even Trade chat was a place where I learned so much about the game. You could ask questions and get a dozen friendly and legit answers. Before the LFG tool, you had to talk to people in chat to form groups. The content (to me) wasn't easy. We wiped a lot. You had to mark targets and cc. You had to communicate. Threat was a real mechanic you had to manage. We ran Omen Threat Meters and you really had to watch your aggro. You had to manage your mana also. I remember how horrible I'd feel Life Tapping on my lock knowing I was essentially stealing our healers' mana. Ofc it was by design and it was an efficient exchange, but it still felt wrong to me. In MoP, Challenge dungeons (which was the precursor to M+) were introduced and to me, the whole group dynamic changed. As a long time pally tank and healer, I noticed the disintegration of the trinity. DPS ran ahead, pulled mobs, tanks would los their healers, not watch mana, no one pealed mobs by running to the tank. The timers introduced in Challenge Dungeons make everyone forget the method for clearing content. It became a ffa. Finger pointing became worse and worse and attitudes were as toxic as they could be. I'd get hateful whispers ever during or after good runs. It got to the point where group content became a source of dread. A second job. Eventually, my wife and I started just duo'ing content. "Solo" playing together. We jumped from guild to guild trying to find players who liked a good challenge, but took setbacks in stride. Instead, every guild acted as if they were competing for world first and even one missed kick was grounds for name calling. I remember wiping for hours in heroic Shadow Labs back in the day when I was learning to tank. It was a blast! No one was mad at anyone but themselves. We all strived to do better and we did. These days, if you're not one-shotting all content every time, even on day 1, "you suck." This is how WoW has changed and I don't think there is a way to ever go back to how it used to be.

@jaerancilio3950

19 күн бұрын

I am a warlock by default, so Cataclysm is my proverbial Sisyphus arc. It was a full on Slog-Fest. but I adapted. Regardless, rumblings in guild chat built into crescendos, and thus twice over, the world was sundered. Major Sadface. Prior to, however.... I will never forget EARNING my Dreadsteed, or raiding Karazhan after finally getting that key. By Mists, I was in LFR mode, but I watched all the videos, just to be sure. Everything is auto-pilot now. TBT ... I miss the gory "glory" days of WoW raiding and I will use the team building skills I learned from those raids and heroic dungeons as examples in my culinary profession managing a food-truck. I know I can rely on my crew to get our tasks seen through whether I call the play, or they do, and the results are second to none when you finally bridge that gap

The core here is that both we and the game have changed. People begun to value their time more and are stuck in a limbo of wanting to trim down as much as possible while feeling like they've accomplished something with the time spent on the game, to the point they will die on a hill defending some of the most asinine decisions the developers are adamant about not changing (i.e. key depletions, lockouts for older raids, spending more time on logistics than actually fighting the bosses, etc.). Incidentally the same FFXIV MSQ WoW players bash, a game spanning questline that is basically required to progress the game, is also its biggest selling point. Why? Because this isn't just an MMO, but an MMORPG.

The player is the one that changed, the proof is wow classic. Even when having the opportunity to play the game as it once was people play it like if it's the modern game, with an emphasis on parsing, group cleaving, min maxing. Retail is a product of what wow players really want in modern times, no one wants the true vanilla wow we once had.

@jossekarhu3765

22 күн бұрын

No no, Community is that has chanced which forces players to play by how community wants or they are not accepting you to play with 'em. When you are forced to do something there is no fun in it. In rare cases it could lead to fun, like doing few chores there and there, but you shouldn't have them in place all the time. I was really lucky and happy to be allowed to raid as retribution paladin in classic launch, when all it was a meme. Did I work for it? absolutely. Was multiboxing with 5 accounts to progress my character to best position I could. Did grind trough that consumables fiesta for R14. Was doing summoning services for guildies to gather those world buffs. Spent my other free time gathering items for consumables and helping out guildies there and there, cus I had power of 5 characters. Now when I look back into it. None of that would have not happened in actual classic. Community demands a lot out of you and that is not healthy for any one. 1 of the reasons I quit my job I had back then, to give more time to make me accepted for the role. I had fun yes to fulfill my dream and goal to beat all classic bosses (except world bosses because they were farmed for no. 1 guilds) as Retribution paladin. But that amount of work shouldn't be a thing for a game. Players wouldn't want retail stuff if it was never made like that or community chanced to be too competitive. You can't really bring in new players or back old players because they see too much learning and work to prove themselves, to be accepted by community. I quit classic progression in TBC, when Black Temple did launch and killing Illidan in first week of release. I was so burnt out.

First, thank you for the video and sharing your thoughts. I want to say that I love your lore videos and videos such as this one. I watched you before and missed you while you were doing other stuff. I understand you had to do what was best for you and glad you are back. My thoughts and how I play WOW are different than most people, mostly because I was an adult when it came out. I was 37 in 2004, 40 when I started and am currently 56. Most of my gaming experience pre WOW were D & D, similar table top RPGs, console games (FF 1-7, Brain Lord, Lunar, etc.) and PC RPGs (Forgotten Realms, Lands of Lore, etc.). I am female and served in the U.S. Air Force for 22 years before retiring in 2008. My Husband (now Ex) was the first of us to play WOW when vanilla came out. He tried to get me to play but I wasn't really interested at the time. I was unsure about playing with other people and I really liked the save feature of regular games. If you mess up, just go back to your last save. He finally talked me and our two daughters into playing one Christmas somewhere between BC and WOTLK (2007, I believe). I have been playing casually ever since. The Ex doesn't play any more (says it's not realistic enough for him) but our youngest daughter still plays casually (she was 8 when she started and is 25 now) but she also plays other games as well. She tells me the best birthday she ever had was when she turned 11. Her birthday was on a school day but when she woke, I told her she wasn't going to school and that I had bought and downloaded Cataclysm for her (her birthday fell in the release day 7 Dec 2010 so it was perfect). Her birthday gift was to stay home and play WOW. I still play with her sometimes or mostly just alone. I was use to it with my old games so it doesn't bother me. I still play because I like the game. I couldn't care less about raiding, M+, gearing or trying to be the best. I don't feel the need to prove anything to anyone. I was okay initially with raids and dungeons but not so much when they became marathon races with complicated mechanics and some of the individuals you ended up with left much to be desired so I avoid them when I can (or can solo them). I was in a dungeon a few months back and the healer decided they didn't need to do things like heal anyone but themselves or res anyone who died. I died and had to run to catch up with them then pause continually to heal myself. At the end they started bragging how they had done more damage than me as DPS. I really wanted to point out that I would have done more if they, as the healer, had been doing what they should have been doing rather than trying to see how much damage they could do but decided they weren't worth the consideration and left. And heaven forbid you should even think about looking at cut scenes, you would be left behind and/or probably kicked. Before Panaria Remix I hadn't done a (current in game) raid since BFA and if a raid is part of the quest line, I just delete it/skip it. Panaria Remix isn't bad, everyone is overpowered and there aren't any complicated mechanics. I absolutely love follower dungeons. There are no marathon races, I can watch and enjoy the cut scenes/story dialog (without having to watch it on KZread) and know the healer will focus more on healing. These were made just perfectly for someone like me. I will probably still avoid raids. I had a stroke a few years ago and can't use my left hand all that well. But I've got a gamer mouse with buttons all over which allows me to play normal play with one hand (luckily I'm right handed). Modern raids are too complicated for me but as I didn't really like them in the first place, I don't really see it as a loss.

To be honest, that's one of the reasons why I am kinda excited for tww with the delve stuff. Gives me the option to gear myself. Like, I like this "I wanna maximize my character" Stuff. but I also wanna take my time or just not be around this elitism / gatekeeping Environment.

@jakubpelikan2393

23 күн бұрын

Yeah thats cool until you realize that people take awlay path of least resistance no matter of fun so if delvs become way to get good gear people will quit raiding and mythic +. Just like many people quit raiding when m+ was put into the game becouse M+ is more covient and easyer to do.

@ZyrYoutubeAccount

23 күн бұрын

@@jakubpelikan2393 How would it become less cool, as soon as more people play it? Isn't it a good thing, if a new mode is prefered to the old one? from what I have read delve gear will cap somewhere around hc raids. so gear wise it will be pretty much the same as now: Best gear comes from myth raid and the vault. In the end I will probably do all 3, it just means, when I dont get m+ invites I dont have to sit there and queue for 6 hours a day for maybe 3 dungeons. because that fact alone is making me (and I bet not just me) hella salty. People having more choices to farm gear from, even if it gets easier, is a good thing imo. Especially for new or returning players. Like, imagine you play a non meta class, have to catch up score to get any invite for dungeons that are worth it for you, what do you do? sit in queue for hours on end? buy a boost? that's everything but not fun.

@HighTide.Sunset

23 күн бұрын

@@jakubpelikan2393then make it fun. If it’s fun people will play it.

@OhNoTheFace

22 күн бұрын

@@jakubpelikan2393 Can gear doing both. Sounds like excuses . . .

@Kryptic712

22 күн бұрын

@@jakubpelikan2393 i think people will get gear with the least resistance, to then raid and M+

I miss my guild tremendously. Folks just have more going on in their lives, have partners/spouses, careers take up time, etc. I only get to play with them for a couple weeks every two years when the new WOW expansion drops and they come back from their survival games, PVP games, FPS games, etc. They don't want to dump hundreds of hours into a game when there are so many other games they want to play. It feels impossible to find any other group to fill that gap.

In the maw I got so frustrated that I race changed to worgen so I could mount

I haven't watched the full video yet, but I feel that a lot of the issue is how convoluted things have gotten. We're existing in a 20 year old world at this point, with everything just stacked on and available from the get go. I tried to get my wife into the game and am trying to explain decades worth of old world lore to her, and in the end just have to tell her that its irrelevant now. There really needs to be a new player experience (definitely not noob island) and a lore catch up system, much like the in-game library Pyro speaks on.

@Pyromancer

23 күн бұрын

Yessssss god give me that damn Nathrezan Library!

I don't read WoWhead for the datamined stuff. I only use it like I used Thotbot back in the day (there's a throwback memory). I get stuck, I use it. But the bazillions of pages of paper in my notebooks from where I took notes on how to find stuff, how the character set up is (because I DO look that up when they change stuff, but I make changes on it as I go for my own play) and that's it. I am studiously not watching or reading anything that will change my mind about the next expansion. I watch you because you dig into the lore and stuff and that's why I play. I don't mythic because it's too fast and too cutthroat for me. Hell, unless something is only in a cut scene from a raid or dungeon do I even set foot into them until I can solo them two expansions from now. The stress is not worth it (I have a stress-related auto-immune condition so stress is off my list of things to do). I have honestly thought of making a guild that has the purpose of "low and slow" where we look at lore, we don't rush through dungeons without looking at stuff as we go and clearing every mob. That's how I play and I know there have to be others who like that rather than the rush through elitism that I see going on.

Totally agree with what you and Edd said. I finally cancelled my WoW subscription. Haven't played in a long time. None of the friends I made through the years play anymore. No fun anymore. Game and community have changed it feels like. Developers don't seem to listen to folks.

We do SUPER need to gut out some Raid Difficulties we have like 5 with TWW and there's no reason for Story LFR Normal Heroic and Mythic. If we're going to be getting soloable Story raids then LFR as a Difficulty can go (not as a system mind you, as a difficulty) and then you make LFR normal Difficulty, Normal Heroic, and Heroic Mythic, and then you 'get rid' of mythic.

for people who claim they "havent changed" im sure wow has changed in such an extreme way for them

39:14 My favorite part of wow was when I was done gearing. Sitting in my set spot in Org talking to Guildies. I can't finish gearing anymore because, one, I'm not that good; two, the raids are harder now; and three I don't have the time.

"Elitism that spread from retail to classic?" Has anyone forgotten the drama around the asinine behaviour of guys like Tipsout that is documented in so many stream highlights? The most toxic classic players came from the private server scene.

One of the bigger improvements wow could make is to not invalidate gear from a previous raid. Have very very very limited catch-up gear and have new players required to go thru the previous tier raids of the expansion. The catchup process gets easier the further into the expansion.

WoW didn’t become less social, MMO players have.

I am more a of a casual player and WoW began when I was in my early 30s. I think the OP has a point. LIfe changes can affect the way we perceive aspects of life including the games we play. HOWEVER, I do think WoW has changed a lot over the decades as well. I think it's probably a bit of both that contributes to peeps not having as much fun. Also, at the beginning the game was new and fresh. It's like getting a new job. it's exciting and you look forward to it, but after years of working in the same place, well...one gets bored.

@Pyromancer

23 күн бұрын

Totally agreed!

There are so many things to discuss on this topic, so I will do my best to stay coherent as possible but TLDR: addons, accessibility, and community and biggest of them all: STORY. I mean, to be fair, I really stopped playing during mid-Legion even started to lose interest after WoD. All their plot lines were just so incoherent, "get a new expansion but first buy these two new books. But wait, there's more you're in mid-expansion, here have another book. Oh now you have to start a new expansion, well here's the prelude to that expansion." XIV gave me a sense of cohesion when I needed it. The side stories were mentioned briefly into their website and gave really nice incorporations as to some of the characters you wanted to know. From Zenos to the Ancients, those vignettes spoke to you. It was finely tuned. MoP was more of my flavor after Wrath because it resonated with the story and such. I mean, the fact they did my man Arthas into an enchanting dust was just a gut punching heart wrenching moment. I loved his character in WC3 to the way he was written into LK but when SL to just belittle him was just so disgusting. I mean, I liked Sylvanas and for her to be relegated into an almost nobody was just meh. Meanwhile, Thrall gets the savior moments along with Anduin... but I digress. When flavors like mythic and gear score came along I was really not into it. The fact there was the DPS charts and DBM (still thinking about the back in my heyday there) had to be integrated. The meta of it was just killing the game more and more. I did not enjoy the aspect of being micromanaged to where my DPS was and my talent points were wasted. A lot of times when I watch these mythic raiders do their raids all the addons they have on screen and the kill videos is just jarring. Albeit, there are times when you can tell there are addons on XIV, namely ACT but mostly an addon free screen just seems so clean and you can enjoy it more. I mean one of my biggest gripes was playing on a PVP server and sadly getting killed every time plus camping was just not healthy. To this day, there is that toxic message that comes to my head, "If you're on a PVP server, learn to PVP." This was before introducing War Mode. Meanwhile, when I encountered another player in XIV it was just "Hey!" and "Hey!" then we fly off like nothing. I am not into the mythic raiding, but I loved the idea of collecting mounts, minions even titles (PVP not included). There were some zones I enjoyed playing in. Something about Suramar in Legion was just so beautiful when you had to sneak in and out of that city. Vash'jir with the underwater places you could go into (underrated but still good). I wished there was a way we could play in Valley of the Four Winds before Sha came and corrupted it. And the fact you mentioned Asmongold and the sphere of influence he holds while yes it has its own riveting and gripping influence it ruined there too. You're right, datamining has become so toxic it hurts your bias of the game immediately. I am grateful for XIV when a patch comes out all the information is there while there will be some dataminers which gets shamed on it makes well worth the wait that what we have in store will be so good. Wowhead killed a lot of my expectations all the time, sadly, and the fact remains there are those who are willing to share these things for profit while the rest of it is waiting for its results. Sorry for the rant.

There's so many things I now know I'm doing wrong with WoW. I'm playing how others want me to play. I'll never make anyone happy doing it so I've stopped raiding, joining guilds and adhering to everyone else's expectations. I think I finally figured it out. I thought it was the addons aesthetics that were making me sad with the game. It isn't. It's the addons themselves and their purposes. DBM, BigWigs, it doesn't matter. I don't LEARN anything by shit being on my screen. I gotta do it myself. So instead of keeping addons like BigWigs and Skada, I'm gonna remove 'em. Prob still gonna keep the aesthetic addons though, like Shadowed Unit Frames, Bartender and even fun ones like Narcissus that I discovered recently that doesn't actually change the game for me but adds fun to it. Thank you, Pyro for inspiring me to take the plunge. No more addons yelling at me. I go my own speed.

Data mining sucks!

@justine8398

22 күн бұрын

Data mining, Alfa, and Beta testing ruined the game especially these days when its gamers who hold a large social media presence across multiple platforms. I mean look at Tali and Bellular who are first to rush and put the spoils from data mining and Beta testing on the internet. Where is people sense of adventure on discovering and figuring things out on your own. Just what I want, to feel like I’ve played the game before I’ve played the game no wonder people get bored so quickly. Blizzard needs to ban all the spoiling and just let players figure it out while playing the game.

@becjed1701

10 күн бұрын

@@justine8398 you can just not read spoilers

A lot of this has merit! The design of the game incentivizes meta gameplay, but the reason to a degree people pursued that also comes to the fact a lot of people pursue numbers. I've seen in the New Player chat more often than I'd like that people consider Cata Classic the "better game" because the max character level is higher there than in Retail, and thus they're pursuing whatever simply gives them the bigger number - not a challenge, not more satisfying gameplay, just a big number. And while the meta-chasing habit of Retail is there too, we can choose where to put our time - and adding Delves to the mix provides more player agency in how we want to spend our time, not feeling like we HAVE to split our time as such. Account-wide renown also adds to this. The most consistently dedicated playerbase WoW has are the roleplayers who have a stronger ability to curb or diversify our desires with the game, and while pushing M+ score or item level or getting better at PvP is there, the world is what attracts us and pulls us in the most. We're exploring dungeons for RP events or venues, scrubbing through bits of content for lore, etc.. Those who used to play and are looking for a whole new mysterious world to be lost in and immersed in where you can kind of forge your own path... kind of ignore the combination of factors that got them there. They didn't know how to play the game, they didn't have guides that weren't printed out at the time (even if WoWhead did exist early on, the % of people who accessed online info was lower and rumor and misinformation was WAY more rampant back then. See the Ashbringer Fishing stuff from way back when). It was a whole new style of game to people too. Even if you do hop into a new MMO with a new combat system and everything, even if datamining wasn't supported and everyone was just as new at the game as you and just as shit at the game as you, because of sheer exposure to gaming, you learn habits and expectations to apply to the new game. You begin to unconsciously map out resource routes, crafting priorities, performance metas. You notice how out-of-the-way places tend to be shaped to attract the eye and thus have content you should focus or treasure to look for. You begin trying to find the fastest way around after your 5th or 6th time back to a hub or location, even if you're only passing through. Fast travel and flight/auto travel paths become more enticing because it saves you time and effort, and pulls you out of the immersion. You're more aware of plot holes in the lore told to you now since you've seen so many more instances of storytelling over time and can see tropes or potential shortcomings earlier on, and start anticipating how things would or wouldn't go. Simply put, even WoW classic has shown this. You can go back to how everything was back then - but YOU cannot make yourself as shit as you used to be and new to the world and setting as you used to be, at least not without some highly dangerous practices and a potentially lethal amount of moonshine or rubbing alcohol (do not do this for god's sake it's dangerous). You cannot unlearn your habits or insights gained. New players to the genre can, but you can't unremember the first time you played a game - and even newer entries to the game carry with it the problem that you know better how the game is built, designed, laid out, and should be played over time. BC was not as mysterious as Vanilla for you if you played Vanilla. Cataclysm was but only for the sheer volume of changes, and that wonder can be exhausted very fast. The game just won't ever be the same, and the game itself doesn't have to change much - you're the one who could and often will be the one changing. Go play Skyrim again - it's still there, still the same, and unless you put in so many mods as to make it unrecognizable or you have memory issues... it's still Skyrim. Most will not be as enchanted by it as they were the first time or two they went through it, and the vast likelihood is, you're one of them, reader. We as players have to recognize at a point when we're projecting too much onto what a game *should* fulfill, and not so much what a game *is*, and that will always lead to disappointment. (And some games are just bad. That's fine.)

Also Re: Zygor and how it's "allowed" to exist despite being a violation of TOS and its that the Addon is free and you can download it freely so it doesnt violate TOS you are paying for access to the "guides" that make the addon actually work, however. Basically they found how to split the hair to violate the Spirit of TOS while not violating the Text of the TOS.

I don't think retail is simple at all, but I actually think that's exactly what is annoying.. I played dragonflight for a week... I found like 50items in my inventory i have no idea what they are used for. But the thing is, it's so many that I don't even want to know, its just too much. And that is with everything in WoW. If you are a collector and start the game you are overwhelmed, instantly quit. Understanding a class completley by your own is also crazy cause so many spells interact with each other, but then you go on a website to get some tips, and you get an import link with an entire talenttree, I think it's just a joke at this point. Mechanics in dungeons and raids are great but missing a mechanic because you are learning your class because you have to watch 6buffs on your buffbar and proccs. People might say "omg skillgap", but should an mmo be really about high skillgap? I think thats the main issue with retail, and why people want to play classic. Cause you can play with friends even when they play bad.

for those like me, the LFG for dungeons, raids, ect is critical because I don't work a set 8 or 9 to 5 job so my time is unpredictable. Yes, given the ability, I would prefer doing group activities with my guild.

😂😂😂 I cant do all nighters either

The "Mythic is too hard" or "Make heroic the highest difficulty" arguments get a little convoluted, I think. If we measure raid completion as the difficulty metric (not the only one, sure), ~1200 10/25 man (like a 1 : 5 ratio of 25 : 10 man) guilds cleared Heroic Ra-den in Throne of Thunder before SOO patch. Old Wowprogress data is real sketchy and has server transfer/duplicates so definitely a rough number. Compare that to the most recent retail raid tier, Mythic Amir'drassil, where you saw close to ~1200 guilds clear it before next season. Player base has changed, regions, etc, but I feel there's this impression that a significantly larger population base was full clearing Heroic raids in MoP when it wasn't dramatically different than Mythic CE rates today (H Lei Shen and Garrosh were still 200+ pull bosses for most guilds). I guess the difference is that 10man guilds could at least attempt the "hardest content" without committing to a larger team? I think flex raiding or 10 and 25 raiding models put Blizzard in a design position where they can't easily scale difficulty to the level players have expected the hardest version to be (whatever name is slapped on it). That was mentioned as a driver to go 20man Mythic. I will agree that the administrative headaches of running a 20man CE roster are significantly higher than the effort we had to do to coordinate our 10man in Cata. Maybe they could make normal and heroic flex raiding both slightly more difficult? I think there's a gap between a difficulty that can satisfy more casual schedule players and not needing the time/organization commitment that 20m Mythic requires. I don't think there's much of a difficulty delta between Normal and Heroic once you get a bit of gear on your team (but the gearing in DF has made it so you can be close to BiS really quickly through M+ and upgrade crests so that's become a tuning issue too).

I think this was a great video because it does make people think about why maybe for them it isn’t fun and I know for me it was as I got older definitely that I didn’t have time to raid, most of my friends had stopped by cats playing and so I felt lost as to what to do. For me I loved to rp and so I told myself “fuck it I will try a rp server” and I got very lucky I met someone who walked up to my male human paladin I played, and we began to rp this person would soon become a friend I still play with today but it let me get into WoW again and have fun. For me I stopped caring about raids and dungeons so much and had more fun rping events on the server we played on (moon guard and yes those who know the server well it does have the gold shore brothel as we call it lol) but I have found more fun in rping with my friends and just taking things slow not pushing hardest content, do we run mythic dungeons sometimes? Sure but we aren’t trying to push hard for best gear, times and rating just fun…I think for me I got lucky but legitimately the rp server saved me and my time on WoW.

Even on RP realms people check your parse for even normal Raids...

@denniswolf8685

19 күн бұрын

That's the biggest bs ever. I pug everything on every alt. And for normal raid I have never been asked for parses or someone checks them. Sure there are groups that ask for curve on HC. But there are enough groups that you can enter without.

I just hate how transient WoW has become. It feels like the design had to be timeboxed around 15-20 minute increments. And that if you decide to leave for a period of time and later return you are bombarded with rewards to "catch up". No I want to feel like I need to play the game. But not because it's driven by elite farming and being in an empty zone is a waste of time. Having stepped away DF for half a year I return to a city flooded with quest markers and no aim or focus. I as an experienced player understand a lot of them are ignorable but I struggle to see how new players get into WoW. And something I will always say I miss is back when reaching max level was part of the game experience and not just seen as a chore.

I mean with regards to mythic. Around 2000 western guilds clear mythic each tier that’s 40000 players and hundreds of thousands of players attempt mythic and clear/pug a few bosses. People act like it’s 1% of players that engage with it, it’s not. Especially in Asia mythic raiding casually is really popular

LAAAAAAAAME!!!!!!!! This was such a good vid thank you :)

the maw could have been such a good zone. but blizz ruined it.

Cutting data mining would be so huge! Especially when you have these weakauras andy (i dislike most addons that help with dungeons/raids. Utility ui ones are a blessing) wouldn't be able to "optimize" it for world first race. So you have raw analytical/skill being showcased as the guild tries to solve the puzzle and reach the finish line.

On your take for datamining, id agree with that, but mostly with just lorewise and fun stuff to explore, i think stuff like that should not be available for datamining, at least imo. I like optimization so stuff like class changes, raid encounters and etc id like to get the info on that. Watching the cinematics without KNOWING beforehand from datamining would be very nice though. I generally am a gameplay over story type of player, but i still like to sometimes just chill, fly around, do some quests, maybe do the story quests if i havent and stuff, so it would be fun to see those like that.

There was 1 thing good about the Maw. It genuinely felt like a dangerous place to be in like classic and you had to be efficient to get as much as you can before too many things tried to kill you. I didn’t mind not having a mount. It being mandatory and not having many interesting things to do is what made it bad. It became a boring daily routine. The meta achievements for the hand mounts were really fun to do.

As a former WoW player who stopped playing in Dragonflight and going to FFXIV, I had fun again. I felt so miserable and bored and burned out while I played WoW for all these years, that it became normal for me to feel that way while playing wow. FFXIV is so much fun, hate myself not for discovering it sooner. It doesn't force you to do certain things, it has a myriad of different side activities, and old content is still relevant, it's so refreshing, it's the best game for Casuals. Also it has the most important part of a MMORPG a good and active community with many ingame events, housing RP etc etc.

*Pyromancer casts Shadow Bolt!*

I guess coming from an RP server (Go ahead and make fun of me) I have never lost a sense of community. I have been playing since Vanilla and I still make a lot of connections today. The game has changed, and some have changed with it. I am not saying someone needs to do this or that but I do feel that at somepoint its MY fault or other faults that we don't connect. If you have friends it should extend beyond WoW. The game is not the point. I think its us.. we changed. We got older. We got more time on our hands and some of us did not do the work.

@gozexthelost4951

23 күн бұрын

Roleplay I know is CRINGE to a lot but to me it makes the game more engaging and fun. Thats just me. Some like to only do PVP, some like to just do PvE. I like PvE and RP. It is an MMORPG. So like.. I just like that side of it more. The RP side

You're not really thinking about mythic raiding very thoroughly. It's not like ultimates, because it gives the best gear. You have to mythic raid to be best in slot, which is more tangible than having some skins. People want raiding to go back to being standardized- where everyone plays the same difficulty, and that difficulty is a shared experience, even if it isn't as hard as mythic is now.

Yeah holy shit, horrific visions was great until you found out you could only do them twice a week, but it was also a rogue like and the first few attempts you would die in like 5 minutes. At least we could do Torghast and island expeditions when we wanted.

@ChinnuWoW

23 күн бұрын

Horrific Visions and achieving 5 mask solo was the most fun I've ever had in the game.

TL:DR Work and life responsibilities have taken up people’s free time. Not giving them enough time to fully experience MMO games with enough time. This results in meta builds for fast and efficient time management , which results in data mining of meta items, mythic+ rating, gate keeping groups, and a market filled with carries that you can buy using gold from wow tokens. All so you can fill the dopamine of achieving success.

agree the issue is those time limited rewards in Mythic raiding. M+ not so much, I've seen Mythic raiding kill guilds and friendships and its stupid.

Yeah, WE changed so does the game, but it went opposite direction. and Yeah, I know its Multiplayer bla bla but only thing I care is "world" of Azaroth, my character and my adventure. And I would still pay a sub and play solo, but play like adventurer in revamped old world where only way for me to fly is by visiting a town and boarding a zeppelin, where I get hard earned mats from quest and I go to blacksmith in Ratchet give him the rare "gem" taken from "that pesky ogre mage" that was located in a cave in which I died multiple times solving puzzles and relaying on reflexes killing him by using skill like on bosses in mage tower so I can get not purple but blue item, for purple you must do even crazier things. I want to see old world in pair with Dragonflight quality of zones. When I create character, I don't want to be spawned into tutorial island I want to be left in middle of road or inn or whatever depending on race. Every race should have their own town and kingdoms and identity...not added form thin air, I want to buy or craft potions so I could prepare for those solo fights and quest or just to escape mobs... etc etc.

32:00 Proving you're good enough to join my group is not "fuck*ng toxic". Being missmatched with people skill/exp wise is fuck*ng toxic. In fact, i feel disrespected. The amount of time i had to spend to learn somthing is steped upon by someone i feel no bond towards. And not only that, but my actual present time is being wasted as well. Skill group system or experience rarting is there for a reason in different sports/games/human endevours. It's just in WoW there is no governing body, so community has to do it itself.

I wholly think it’s the game. When classic first released leveling to 60 felt like I went back in time to my younger years it was great

If blizzard wanted to really keep people logged in, they would have developed a sandbox with horizontal gear progression and infinite leveling.

WoW hasn't been fun since they removed the shredder from old alterac Valley in burning crusade.

Kids becoming adults be like . . .

People that say retail is a dumbed down version of the game is such a shitty take, classic is like for dad gamers and im a dad

It hasn't been fun for over a decade

the game has become more and more stressful over time things like m+ timers and mechanics that punish everyone because one guy failed are annoying and turn me off ever coming back to the game only time i had fun in retail was with a competent, progress oriented raiding guild pugging makes me feel like im playing metro 2033 and im going out into the irradiated outside world you either find a good guild or good luck scavenging for scraps outside i guess most people saying wow isnt fun anymore figured that the cost/benefit analysis doesnt add up anymore and steers them into playing something else

The game is perfect. Amazing and those that complain don’t change it up. They do the same thing over and over. I never left the AH for 7 years played everyday made 100m gold and still do the same thing. 😊

Mmos have been doing progression servers of different types for years. Some xpacs aren't as good

Sassy Pyro got me good

WoW token ruined it for me.

Your friend can't expect people to play the same way they did it in classic, when culture have shifted through out the years. It's just how culture and people works - they suck.

I stopped playing for like 2 years, came back a few months ago, i subbed for 3 months, i only played a month, then i was done, it was boring as hell, having the same things to do.. over and over and over and over and over........ again. It got so old fast, not do to it being over all bad, just that it got boring and FAST.. i ended up wasting 2 months of payed time, the guilds and players are way to pushy and had no understanding for anything, if you missed a few days you got kicked, people ranting about the same thing day after day, and the game its self while fun, is only fun for A while, then its repetitive and boring, and this is coming from a player who does it all, i Dungeon, Raid, Pets, Collectable, Outfits/Mogs, PVP, i play the game and everything it has to offer, and after a month, it was just repeat, repeat, repeat, and its gets old fast, to much Boring for the Price we pay.....

@Pyromancer

23 күн бұрын

It’s almost like with time our expectations and interests change. The game has also changed, that is for certain, but perhaps we just aren’t having fun doing the same shit over and over like we once did? The repetition wears on you.

@eviljuice3969

23 күн бұрын

@@Pyromancer too.. True!!

think its mostly because the game is expressive and the combat is dated.

Using an open API to create a service is basic business methods today. As soon as it is an open API you have verry little to say

Ill Raid with ya bro!!!

The game is convoluted for sure but it has always been complicated, the damn game manual I read in 2006 was the size on an encyclopedia

@Pyromancer

23 күн бұрын

Bro trying to understanding spell ranks and mana usage in WotLK breaks my brain lmaoooo

It doesnt feel like an MMO anymore, it feels like its turning into an e-sport or a mobile version of itself. That being said, i still came back. 😂 Also, when he said "you boot your pc up" he forgot to mention you were on dial up internet and you could go make a pizza while everything loaded. 😂

@Pyromancer

23 күн бұрын

Facts lmao! Had plenty of time on those load screens baby! 😂

We all long for days gone by....But someone who suffers from Bipolar Disorder ill be honest and say...If not for my friends and guild in modern WOW id probably be dead 100%...They were the only good thing in my life for a long time!

Ultimately this is self destructive behavior. This game races new players towards a end game that is polluted with gatekeepers. Which is a huge turnoff for newer players. You ask why delves and story mode raids are becoming a thing? Because of community toxicity. We're unforgiven towards newer players. Yes, Data mining needs to go, IO score needs to go, ADDONS NEED TO GO! Older player become to jaded to keep player and new player are pushed out before they have a chance to start. If this keeps up the wow community will collapse on itself.

Raids and dungeons have never really been that fun. Problem is, the stuff you use to farm in 1-2 difficulties, now have 4-30+ difficulties to farm. Just like Diablo 2 had 3 difficulties with different tiers of items you could obtain, jumped to Diablo 3 with 150+ difficulties, with the same items in all difficulties, just stat modified. You feel like you are getting nowhere and time is wasted.

@Pyromancer

23 күн бұрын

Yeah the 4+ difficulty thing is obnoxious.

You know whats bad for the game ? a bad game. Datamining isnt the problem.

I do get the frustration about that Positive and Negative charge thing on Raszageth, because there are a lot of Auras like that. Essentially useless. There's also an example Max has made multiple times, that there are people in their Guild that don't use Bigwigs or DBM, but use Weakauras. Where needed. There's like 2 people in Limit that outside of very specific things to track via Weakauras/handle via Weakauras and the odd timer, they mostly go off of the sound queues of a Boss etc. - BUT - With WoW, there is this push to get rid of addons and to make Weakauras less prevalent, yet the real power of WeakAuras these days lies in the fact that whenever they are VITALLY NECESSARY to a Boss fight, it's because Blizzard isn't willing to give you natural alternatives. They make it harder for the Addon to solve, but the Boss is also suddenly harder than anything you did the tier before (Aberrus). You could auto solve this if the visual clarity of a mechanic was more obvious. You could auto solve Fyrakk Balls, if you actually had the time to let your group sort out their positions on the fly. But you don't. You have lackluster visual representations of the mechanics, with color coding that is often the same color as everything else in the room and even when that were different, the amount of time you get to have 20 people sort it out manually, before the mechanic goes "Live", is too short. Try and have 20 people on Fyrakk naturally spread to soak Balls in Intermission 1 with random debuff assignments (Shadow and Fire debuffs) to soak the corresponding ~9 Orbs á sets of 3, when 2 seconds after the debuffs have gone out, the balls spawn and move in. You have a whopping 2-3 seconds to have 20 people spread out to specific positions, making sure there's a red and a purple soaker, with random debuff assignments every pull, if one orb goes in, the raid dies. You can't pre-assign people to positions due to a random application pattern, you don't have time to sort it out manually and the visual effect for the colors is lackluster at best. And you don't have the option of a single fuck up or a mistake, because if that happens the Raid is dead 100% of the time. Ofc people will fall back on a cooked WeakAura that keeps bugging or breaking to deal with the private aura nature of the mechanic still, because doing it manually is the WORSE alternative of the two. It costs you more time, more pulls, more nerves. THAT'S the Problem with Mythic. Or Raiding in General these days. They hear the criticism about the tools and reduce the effectiveness of the tools (or try, at least), but still expect to make the same difficulty of content without compromise. It is EXACTLY what you said. The difficulty of mechanics across 20 people is too much. And it doesn't help that they push for making things less trackable in a world, where the mechanic difficulty stays the same, as if they never reduced the tool effectiveness in the first place. In a world where we're still designing an entire Boss as a representation of a singular color. You cannot have a oneshot mechanic, that can't be tracked by addons properly, require 20 people to sort themselves out over 2 seconds. No repitition in the world makes this doable for anything but a minority. And I want to believe that even World First guilds would still find plenty of whipes, if they tried.

the problem is that everyone will cry about FDK in TWW, cause he will dominate everything in pvp and pve, no matter what. Long live FDK, the master of the universe.

wow isnt fun anymore, because everything has a guide, or needs a guide. in 04/5 the information available was about 1/10th of what is out there now. the game has evolved to the point, that if you dont look at a guide, your a bad player or not playing the game right. this mindset simply didnt exsist back in the day. did you want to look for information, sure, but you almost never found it, and if you did, it was sus at best. so yes, its because of the game, and the players. the game, because its so f'n complicated now, that the players, had to change to play it effectively without being flamed by anyone and everyone and to feel the same feeling that they had years ago without the complication and information.

@UncrownedKingDante

23 күн бұрын

I agree 100%, been saying this since end of BFA. Everything revolves around meta now, cant play what you want if you dont want to get thrashed or bad. You have to watch guides for everything nowadays, no feel of exploration or something new. Day new season releases there is already set what is played that season on m+ and what not, same with raids, pvp and everything else. One of main reasons game became boring today is because every process is monotone and repeatable due to information everyone shoves in your throat on every social media and whole community follows it. Add-ons ruin game too.

@Pyromancer

23 күн бұрын

Bro the fact I had to look up a guide just to have someone ELSE craft my crafted pieces either shows how bad it is or exposes how dumb I am.

@stans2994

22 күн бұрын

@@Pyromancer your int stat is regardless. even though we all know how high it is :) the fact that, in order to play wow at anything above casual level of progression, you need to look at all this social media, youtube, icyviens, your not playing YOUR character anymore like you were back in classic/tbc... and almost LK to a degree. you are playing SOMEONES elses character. back in the days, before GS came along realistically(and the ability to look at everyones talents), YOU chose your talents on wat you wanted to do, YOU chose what spells and rotations you did, YOU were invested in YOUR character that YOU ROLEPLAYED AND CREATED... you cant have that same level of investment, when, YOU didnt make all those decisions. SOME OTHER NERD DID IT FOR YOU. playing wow today, is like playing dungeon and dragons with a bunch of buddies, except, when you goto play a character you thought up, 4 out of the 6 people at the table scoff, laugh, and tell you not to. and then give you a detailed character sheet, already made for you, to play the campaign. then tell you if you dont, then you dont get to sit at the table. THAT. is the problem. of todays wow. (and realistically, all mmo's that have talent trees in general that have 2/3/4 specs, where only 1 spec is useful, and/or it/they NEED to be THIS way to be good.)

its not a me problem, i liked bfa and shadowlands but dragonflight is wayyyy too bloated, they systems are supposed to support each other not be separate

@Pyromancer

23 күн бұрын

The video nor myself are saying it’s a “you problem.” We are saying that it’s both and the inability to consider and reflect on how your life has changed is not helping.

modern wow easy? ROFL.

There is definitely elitism in retail, especially in the Mythic Plus scene (I have a group of friends to do them with, thank god, so don't have to pug). But in general the vibe of retail got SO MUCH BETTER when classic came out, because all the shitheads went and played that lmao.

@LalaDepala_00

22 күн бұрын

As a normie who does M+ I think the elitism is a bit overblown. When I don't know mechanics I just say so and in 99% of cases people explain and don't mind.

no if you are making content for %5-10 is not okay mythic ruined game heroic and normals were enough splitting community is never okay

Yeah just dont do mythic content.... Uh so.. what else is there?

Bad take with Mythic raiding, main difference was time for "old" wow, every single person was capable of finally killing heroic bosses, they needed more time to get gear, which was meaningful compared to nowadays, now due yo have arcady game is designed that is no longer case

Having Bills to pay puts a real crimp on my raiding time!

@ChinnuWoW

23 күн бұрын

How? Raiding doesn't cost any money...

@krim7

23 күн бұрын

@@ChinnuWoW 8 hour job plus 1 hour lunch plus 40 minute drive to and back plus 8 hours sleep. Basically losing 18 and a half hours to life!!! >:( I miss being carefree and young 🤣

Zygor is considered a guide, not an addon. Just like RestedXP. Get upset over something else.

Wow head ruins everything about warcraft and should be banned from releasing anything prior to the release of content. Mythic plus was fun in legion because it was a different take on dungeons. However mythic plus eas terrible for the game for both existing players and especially new players. That razageth mechanic is not a one shot and isnt even that hard to manage. Also you see this mechanic on heroic too. While I agree add-ons are getting ridiculous in WoW, this was not the mechanic you should of been going on a diatribe about. There is nothing wrong with difficult mechanics, however many wow players are horrible at this game. The real issue is that those same bad players then decide to go into content they are not good at, cause multiple wipes, and waste the little time people have already. Its likewhat was said in the beginning of the video, we dont jave the same kind of time we did when we were in high school. Thus people who knwo they are bad neede to actually admit to themselves that some content just isnt for them and they should subject others to their inability to play at this level. I see it all the time in raiding and pvp.

@Pyromancer

23 күн бұрын

I think M+ is fun and more accessible after the tuning changes. +10 being the realistic cap for most people feels appropriately difficult. I hate fucking affixes though. I wish they’d do away with only negative affixes. Give FUN affixes, bonuses for the players, not always just negative stuff.

@KC-py5vq

23 күн бұрын

Even the top end mythic + players want affixes removed and i 100% agree with that take. That or give only kiss affixes that benefit the player ​@Pyromancer

@endofexistence2149

23 күн бұрын

@@Pyromancer my point about mythic plus is that it's design has either seeped into all aspects of wow or exacerbated already know problem. For example speeding through everything faster than light. I stopped caring about leveling because now I when I join a dungeon the tank just blitz's through the dungeon which makes you a have to take non dot based specs and talent or you do zero DMG. I love affliction lock but I'll never play it in a dungeon because ramp DMG is too slow. My main being rogue and assassination up until recently wasn't good for dungeons because you need time to setup. But the mind set of dungeon goers is not beat the timer in mythic plus and beat the non existent timer in regular dungeons. As someone who likes the story of wow, you can't even enjoy anything because everything has to be done fast and completed now. That's why I love when pyro goes through old raids and examines them. It shows just how much work blizzard puts into raid architecture and their willing to add clues and nuggets of story in them that a majority of the players miss because I just need to fill my vault.

Im so tired of this "Im an adult I dont have time." How is school different from work? College kids have less time or at least the same amount as time as a working man with a family. They still raid. Why were all the raiding guilds that were worth their merit back in the day require you to be over the age of 18 to join their raiding roster? I love it when youtubers and streamers say they dont have time for anything. Like bro you're your own boss you make your schedule. You choose to not make time. Cope harder. Bottom line is people who say this just don't want to put the effort into raiding/playing video games. Which is fine. Just be real about it.

@Pyromancer

23 күн бұрын

I literally have 20+ CE achievements and every Challenge Mode reward ever released. I ALSO now have a wife, two dogs, a more developed career and other responsibilities. It isn’t about cope. It’s about life changing. If you can’t see that and want to compare it to college kids be my guest, but you’re living in a fantasy.

@jakubpelikan2393

23 күн бұрын

People what say this just making excuses. They dont realize problem is game desing not that we dont have time. I dont get why everyone acts like there was no 30+y old dads back in 2004. Majority of playerbase back in 2004 were in fact working adults with famylies becouse kids had no money to pay sub.

@Mitchel6489

23 күн бұрын

@Pyromancer It's my fault. A better way for me to say it is WoW is no longer worth your time. There's other things you (people in geneal) would rather be doing than raid. Not so much that there isn't enough time. Nothing has changed since we were kids/teens besides what we choose to do with our time.

@Mitchel6489

23 күн бұрын

@jakubpelikan2393 bro preach. All my guild main roster were 30 old blue collar workers who smoked weed and drank after work and were married some of their wives even raided with us. They found time to play to commit to vanilla wow. Millennials are just lazy. They only have energy to do 1 thing in their day and that's work.

Dragonflight suffered with the 2 leggo drops that were built around the classes that can use them but to get them sucked and if you didnt have them you didnt get invited to groups cause you didnt have Bis weapon

Life isn't really fun anymore and people quit that all the time. Its not a big deal.