You say there's no RNG factor but I'm pretty sure I teched that throw when the game said I didn't

@danobra

3 жыл бұрын

If you were playing SFV, I believe you

@anima94

3 жыл бұрын

@@danobra only online tho

@stopcryingalready

3 жыл бұрын

mk11 where every throw is an 18 way death trap

@UnusuallyLargeCrab

3 жыл бұрын

I also teched that throw

@Morancio

3 жыл бұрын

In Third Strike if you tech on the third frame the game doesn't register your input. So roughly in 3S you have 1/8 chance were you actually teched that throw.

I lose but it's not my fault, the opponent is playing a grappler.

@madthrasher88

3 жыл бұрын

My tech for defeating grapplers is searching their pockets/bag for cans of paint. Paint should seriously be a banned substance once EVO kicks back up.

@ram_taka3436

3 жыл бұрын

is it a coincidence that both Jiyuna and Sajam are both anti-grappler? lol

@mpdrago1730

3 жыл бұрын

@@madthrasher88 and glue

@ignaciojohnjoy

3 жыл бұрын

@@ram_taka3436 But Sajam plays Potemkin and Sol in Strive, so i guess that's hypocritical. Hahahaha

@kholdkhaos64ray11

3 жыл бұрын

@@ignaciojohnjoy Sajam's that guy that's trying to get a highly-desired resource banned just so he can be the sole profiteer due to its scarcity

"Not RNG items on fighting games" Faust: Are you sure about that?

@tylercafe1260

3 жыл бұрын

Ye but Fausts RNG is highly in favor of Faust. Only thing that sucks is like candy that heals

@nathanstrother788

3 жыл бұрын

Phoenix Wright

@memetan_24

3 жыл бұрын

Platinum too.

@thelastgogeta

3 жыл бұрын

Hero and running in Brawl too... Also teams in fighting games are a thing for Gundam Vs. It isn't common, but Tekken, DOA, Smash and SFxT have all had team modes.

The real reason fighting games are difficult is cuz I broke all my fingers attempting the KOFXIII trials lol

@chronology556

3 жыл бұрын

I’ve learned to play with broken fingers. In seriousness, there’s input buffering, long cuts, and button hold tricks.

I prefer fighting games bc of the fact the loss is solely on me. When playing Apex, it didn't feel good to win bc it never felt earned. And when I lost, there's so many factors I can blame that it really never incentivised me to improve. With fighting games, if I lost, I know exactly why I lost, where I lost, how I lost, and everything. It makes improving a much more rewarding experience and so much more fun

@datboiashy2957

3 жыл бұрын

Granted, BR are way more RNG based than skill based. You can be godlike like Shiv but with no weapon, you're just kinda screwed. When it comes to fighting games, the tools are given to you learn and master on your own will and merit. I'm shit at Skullgirls but I still play it everyday to learn match ups with my shell. I also play Apex everyday and have to pray to a God to get a good team and good loot 😂

@MadDragonify

3 жыл бұрын

Try Gundam Versus MBON, it's a 2v2 fighting game and it is excellent

@ANIMEILLUMINATI

3 жыл бұрын

That’s what I like to. But it also adds a layer of stress some people don’t like.

@plantasmus

3 жыл бұрын

Very much this. Losing can sting a lot more in fighting games in a way because it's all you, but it's never really as frustrating as say Overwatch where you might be doing really well but still end up losing because there are 5 other people on your team who didn't perform so well. Also, fighting games are all about intrinsic rewards - gotta find improving your own skills rewarding, rather than just grinding out matches to unlock the next skin etc.

@jessierose13

3 жыл бұрын

@@plantasmus You know, that kind of makes me wish that some fighting games had like a daily/weekly challenge sort of thing to incentivize trying out new characters. Maybe some more alt colors or some other kind of extrinsic reward. I think it would make the grind a little more fun at a casual level.

I make this point all the time. 1 v 1 is what's truly hard about fighting games.

@fat4eyes

3 жыл бұрын

I don't think that's everything. In other games there's at least a chance you'll get some hits in when you're fighting someone of higher skill than you, either through surprise, RNG or catching them after they're already bloody after a previous fight. This doesn't happen in fighting games because it's always a level playing field, and when you go up against someone much better than you then you are totally demolished 99% of the time. I think a lot of the changes with modern fighting games that give the newbie at least a chance to get some hits in is a good thing, it at least gives them that little boost that will keep them playing.

@CrowsofAcheron

3 жыл бұрын

No teammates to blame when things don't go your way.....

@Chaos2Frozen

3 жыл бұрын

Ok, but that doesn't explain card games which are also 1 v 1

@Leo-sr8dm

3 жыл бұрын

@@Chaos2Frozen I'm not too familiar with card games so take what I say with a grain of salt. In card games, you can be the best player and still lose because you drew a bad hand. In shooter games, you can get caught in a bad position and die. In Mobas, you can have a faulty team. However, in fighting games, you lost because you failed to adapt and got outplayed. Even if your opponent chose the better character, you had the option to pick that character as well. If you outplay your opponent, you will be the one to come out victorious.

@drewferguson8324

3 жыл бұрын

This is beyond true. No place to hide or excuses to make in fighting games.

One thing that could be good for fighting games is introducing sub goals for players to aim for while they get their asses kicked. Example, a daily mission that goes "In ranked match tech 5 throws", or "land 5 counter hits frame traps" or something. This is probably complicated to add to any fighting game, but it would help alleviate the stress of losing for players while also teaching them that winning shouldn't and doesn't have to be the only goal you have when you play and there are other ways to "win" in the long run without winning one game.

@aramondehasashi3324

3 жыл бұрын

I'm pretty sure SFV has that and it gives you fight money for it.

@RaykouKun

3 жыл бұрын

@@aramondehasashi3324 I don't play sfv so I wouldn't know but I know Tekken doesn't have something like that. Its good that sfv does that though.

@lecorbak

2 жыл бұрын

"One thing that could be good for fighting games is introducing sub goals for players to aim for while they get their asses kicked." yeah, sure that "win 10 ranked matches in a row" achievment on Street Fighter 4 did really help to feel better as a person when I lost every single ranked matches (around 30 matches) and didn't even won a single round.

fighting games at low levels require a mindset that most people just don't have the mindset goes like this: - you can enjoy a fighting game without being good at it (but you can still try to get better) - while losing is on you, sometimes you don't have much to do about it at the moment, especially if you're fighting an experienced player - you will not be able to execute everything the first time, fighting games are just designed in a way that doesn't hold your hands like most modern games - you might be bad, but that's because you're in a learning process - the learning process can be longer that other games, especially since fighting games usually reward legacy skill, which you as a new player just don't have that's all I can think of rn, but tl;dr getting gud is just harder

@DctrBread

3 жыл бұрын

this is more of it. people gatekeep themselves from fighting games.

@KingOfDarknessAndEvil

3 жыл бұрын

When you're really good at one fighting game, you'll be at least pretty good at almost every other one

@DctrBread

3 жыл бұрын

@@KingOfDarknessAndEvil depends on your metrics. a lot of the strategic knowledge doesnt transfer, but i think thats true for shooters too

@stan5794

3 жыл бұрын

FALSE

@Diego-nn1lx

3 жыл бұрын

Amen

*Professional Starcraft 2 players have entered the chat*

@lorry3535

3 жыл бұрын

zerg op

@Lanzetsu

3 жыл бұрын

Man I thought exactly the same and commented as well, the feeling of 1v1 and how good you did, what you could have improved or do better, that feeling is awesome, also GSL

@lisamajor

3 жыл бұрын

compared to brood war, sc2 is pretty easy to learn lol

@Rokemikal

3 жыл бұрын

broodwar players entered the chat

@DeaconBluesClues

3 жыл бұрын

Go watch vibe, you can get to diamond league on macro alone. Just keep making stuff.

Very interesting topic Sajam, looking forward to see Jiyuna do a take on this too!

@MajorTom468

3 жыл бұрын

Wait, that's Sajam? Damn I thought I was on Brian_f's channel...

@Jawad7178

3 жыл бұрын

Serious? I thought it was alex myers

@danielwappner1035

3 жыл бұрын

They're never gonna get out of this joke.

@TentiousTheCrow

2 жыл бұрын

I thought I was watching Koefficient

me in 2015: bro im trash me in 2021: bro im trash, for now

@shifteleven

3 жыл бұрын

Maturity

@ANIMEILLUMINATI

3 жыл бұрын

“Just wait until I hit training mode and come back...”

There is no RNG in fighting games. Faust and Platinum : allow us to introduce ourselves.

"There's no RNG in fighting games" 50/50 mix-ups: _Allow Us To Introduce Ourselves_

Starcraft/most RTSs have this same issue, for the same reasons.

@bowbay

3 жыл бұрын

A loss in a FG takes a minute or two. Losing an RTS game is losing 25+ minutes of constant effort. Kinda harsh

@Saveferris_

3 жыл бұрын

@@bowbay Learn every cheese and win in 5 minutes

@bowbay

3 жыл бұрын

@@Saveferris_ Losing to a cheese will make you need 2 years of therapy tho

@containeduniverselow4790

3 жыл бұрын

@@Saveferris_ Not against a pro.

@xhitman9923

3 жыл бұрын

@@Saveferris_ Same can be said for fighting games. Remember when the no throw rule was a thing in arcades because it was unfair cheese?

It's also difficult because of the online population. Depending on the game, it might be basically impossible to find quickplay matches. Lobbies/Casuals are often highly varied in player skill. "Beginner" isn't necessarily the skill level assigned to people who just picked up the game this week and are still figuring things out, and it's INCREDIBLY rare for the people you're playing with to reach out and give you advice.

Wifi/bad netcode = RNG

Good video, Sajam

@meister4597

3 жыл бұрын

you mean Brian_F?

@bonbon8899

3 жыл бұрын

this joke boutta become real dry but it can probably rock for one more week

@meister4597

3 жыл бұрын

@@bonbon8899 it's not old already?

@AchedSphinx

3 жыл бұрын

@@meister4597 it will soon enough. memes are designed that way.

@booates

3 жыл бұрын

it was old before jiyuna even made the video lmao

I'm really confused that there was even a debate about fighting games being the hardest, RTS is the only other genre that's on the same level and I bet the commenters weren't talking about that but moba or fps instead

@AchedSphinx

3 жыл бұрын

mainstream only talks about what's popular so more than likely.

@sladejosephwilson2300

3 жыл бұрын

A strategy game?

@anima94

3 жыл бұрын

@@sladejosephwilson2300 RTS = real time strategy

@justafence

3 жыл бұрын

The amount of times I've lost because a damn zealot ran into my base and killed all my drones. Or all my lings and then my drones. Or corsairs exploded all my overlords and I couldn't build any units...

@CrowsofAcheron

3 жыл бұрын

RTS is definitely the hardest. The amount of build orders, macro timings you have to ingrain into you muscle memory before you can even think about what the opponent is doing....... Also each game takes like 20-30minutes to play, no thanks.

I think we're overlooking one super major factor. All those games that blow up super popular, ARE FREE! and even while free, alot of those games have better features(online quality/netcode/servers), better graphics, more content(skins, voice lines, characters, etc), more variety(RNG situations, teammates, decks) than most if not any fighting games that sell for $60(base game), $20(season pass for characters that can't be earned in game), $?? (for skins and maps that can't be earned in game.

@ANIMEILLUMINATI

3 жыл бұрын

F2P let’s goooo

I feel that giving the fighting game genre the title of hardest or most difficult is doing it a misleading disservice. The genre is way smaller than it should be given the longevity and number of titles in it. Using off putting terms like "most difficult" on it to justify a hobby or career isn't helping. Multiplayer team games are by nature more complex than 1v1. More hands in the kitchen means more chances for error. Which makes it kinda screwed up that those genres can grow and pull in more pro money. If you're going to lift up fgc, please play into its strengths. Easy to start, hard to master. Straightforward controls (no kb+mouse). Low cost entry and cosmetics. More title variety than any two genres with a pro scene. Hardest and most complex? Put that evil on a genre that deserves it.

@Deeznutzho

3 жыл бұрын

But you know what? There's nothing wrong with Harder and more complex. Compare Chess to Checkers, Backgammon, or Othello. Being complex can be a good thing. There's more depth and stategy from that deepness. I don't disagree with playing into its strengths, but I think complexity is actually a strength

@NihongoWakannai

Жыл бұрын

​@@Deeznutzho Pretty much every E-Sport is a complex and deep game though and no one has truly mastered them. Nothing overall is "harder" or "deeper", there are people who have played the original mario so much that they can play it as fast as a literal machine. The difficulty of being a pro has nothing to do with the game, and everything to do with how much of a community that game has and how long people have spent to master it. Being a pro at chess was easy af hundreds of years ago, but now to be a pro at chess you need to memorize hundreds of years of theory. It's very easy to be the best in the world at a fighting game that only 20 people play.

I'm surprised at you, Sajam. You didn't mention that when beginners play fighting games badly, it makes the game look bad. When other game genres are played badly, there are laughs to be had.

@l9139

3 жыл бұрын

I think that has to do more with human interaction and how fast fg games can be. There's not much time to take in what happened till after and another thing is that there's only one other play to witness and it's not like they can just type in chat or use Voice chat. Oh wait nvm i read that wrong

@warera1303

3 жыл бұрын

Monster hunter looks miserable

@warera1303

3 жыл бұрын

Hacknslash games too

>there's no RNG in fighting games Faust would like to know your location.

@ANIMEILLUMINATI

3 жыл бұрын

We definitely blame RNG when losing to him.

@violentd530

3 жыл бұрын

@@ANIMEILLUMINATI RNG 100%, not FB chop, drill cancel j.2K instant overheads or drill cancel j.H anti-IADs.

Bring rollback to BBCF

@freezingcicada6852

3 жыл бұрын

I never played Blazblue online cause letting the intros rock was still terrible. P4 Arena isnt as bad as Bluzblue from personal experience.

@ANIMEILLUMINATI

3 жыл бұрын

I hope.

But he's playing a top tier, has a 9-1 MU vs my character.

In a game design course at my university they teach us that frustration can be way worse than boredom. A player can overcome boredom if the reward is satisfying enough, but frustration easily leads to quitting the game. That's basically the summary of this video but it's also an important concept to keep in mind when designing a video game or a game in general.

This is stupid. Of course fighting games are the hardest. Imagine tryina go to an arcade and run the fade with someone only to get shot because you grabbed them.

I don't know. People find stuff to blame instead of themselves even in FGs. It's not hard to play fighting games. What's hard is to do fun stuff in fighting games.

@danielm5161

3 жыл бұрын

I agree, even as a casual fighting game player...I have to force myself to play the first 40 matches or so of a fighting game before the light bulb goes off in my head and I start to feel the competitive spirit that I want to win. Shooting games are instantly fun because you just log on and start shooting shit. As Jiyuna said, it's easier to 'accidentally' do well in sports games, shooters etc. You can't really accidentally win or "get a kill" in fighters. Your either better and you win or your worse and you lose.

If you want hard, try being a salaryman and going to interviews against people with degrees from Oxford union or UCL! Mans always get that job!

@glass12

3 жыл бұрын

This could be a very good story mode for a fighting game.

@jamesdasilva9939

3 жыл бұрын

@@glass12 yep one’s battles with hot looking lasses in pencil skirts and posh accents must be included in SF6.

Starcraft is similar to fighting games by being a hard 1v1 game and starcraft players cope with losses by just blaming game balance instead of their own faults

I think fighting games and 1v1 games like WarcraftIII or StarCraft are hard. You lose because you are not good enough. You are to blame when you lose. People don't like this feeling.

I always blame my opponent because they hit the button before I did, so they're reading my inputs

One of the biggest reasons for why fighting games are difficult that barely anyone talks about, is that the entire moveset is open to the player from minute go. Every other competitive game slowly eases you into your controls, list of commands etc. Couple that with a lack of proper ranked and you've got yourself a torture dungeon for beginners.

I came into this video thinking "If he says anything other than the fact that other games trick you into being OK with losing, I'm going to write a novel." Then my man delivered on point. Stay classy, Jiyuna.

LTG existence throws all this out the window 🤣

@ShellKameil

3 жыл бұрын

Not really if you think about it everyone knows he's a clown

@KoylTrane

3 жыл бұрын

The fool who persists in his folly will become wise. This quote has nothing to do with LTG, but i think it's nice

@IKKIsama14

3 жыл бұрын

LTG lost because V-trigger.

As a big fighting game enthusiast who just can't play long enough to get good I both agree and disagree. I do think there are a lot of people who aren't comfortable losing or knowing they did bad, but I also think that fighting games have some of the biggest gulfs in the business of getting to a baseline 'I feel like I am playing this game'. I personally don't mind getting my ass kicked, but it's really hard to argue putting in the time to get to a baseline level so that I can just be bad instead of unplayably bad.

I think the other big problem is a persons perception of what they need to accomplish to be successful. For example, in a one player game like Super Mario 64, all you need to do is beat Bowser in the sky to say that you have beaten the game. The player can claim the game was easy because they have seen the credits. But if that same person tries to go for the 120 star speedrun world record, they will quickly see that they are not very skilled at the game at all. This is because getting a world record is far FAR more difficult than simply completing the game. Fighting games may have an arcade mode but most player watch tournaments and other such features, thus viewing "completion" of a fighting game as getting to a high enough level competitively. That becomes their end goal, so they throw themselves into the competitive aspect of the game with the anticipation that they will "complete the game". The problem is that completing a game and being good at a game are two very different challenges and require two very different skill levels. So when they undoubtedly don't reach the level they are aiming for, they view the game itself as being insainly hard, instead of the proficiency they are trying to play the game with as being insainly hard.

I think even more fundamentally, in fighting games, at any skill level, when you play against someone significantly better than you, you don't get to do anything. In other gaming genres, even if you suck, you get to customize, collect, explore, pause and think, go on the attack for a bit, and even win by minor contribution. In fighting games, they counter your opening move. Rush in, get knockdown. Open you back up on wakeup, combo you down to 10%/death, then when you panic block, you get thrown.

Any given competitive game is only as difficult as your competitor. I think people tend to see some genres as more forgiving or easier to do well in but the simple fact is they're more populated by players who are more forgiving or easier to do well against. This problem compounds itself because the people that actually *do* stick with fighting games end up becoming skill checks or gatekeepers of sorts. They may not be any good at the game, they're just good enough to fuck you up in 15 seconds, good game; peace out. So even at the lowest ladders of play, a complete beginner stops playing against people against his actual level after a single weekend and then he runs into the wall of players who are only good enough to wail on him in intimidating fashion.

17 seconds ago Rollback can’t save me yet... XD

The other thing about team games is that you can play with friends that carry you while you're learning, so you can 'feel like you're doing something' and learn along the way while playing. You can try to get into fighting games with friends, but I imagine most people share the same experience where it's just you getting dunked on, and them not really understanding the game well enough to teach it, which inevitably means you *have* to practice and probably research a lot if you want to get good enough to actually play the game. I would argue fighting games are probably also the most difficult games to develop, because they have to figure out how to get people to learn the game from playing it instead of just training, and the only way they've been able to figure it out is by making games simple enough to not need training mode, which tends to result in dumbing it down until it gets boring.

The main issue is playing to win more than for fun, and even worse playing online before enjoying the game itself. This is toxic mentality and people driving themselves mad over their own poor choices.

Luck happens in fighting games all the time. In combat sports we talk about the idea of human coin flipping. It happens in fighting games all the time. Lag, buttons, you didn't eat/sleep well... When human error is involved luck happens. It doesn't mean you are a bad player just that day your opponent was better.

When I was learning guilty gear, it helped a lot to just say to myself that everyone who beat me was a sweaty nerd with no friends that spends all their time in training mode

It's hard because there isn't any objective in a fighting game other than to win. Compare that to league where you lose but you won your lane you still feel rewarded and know you're improving bit by bit.

I think that fighting games need give more positive reinforcement for getting better at the game. If the only thing that you see when you lose is the win/lose ratio of the opponent, of course someone new is gonna feel unmotivated to keep playing. Something as simple as a badget system at the end of a match can help a lot to make the player think that their loss is not something to be frustrated about. Edit: Now that i think abot it, GG Xrd's Arcade mode has the badget system that i'm talkin about.

@ANIMEILLUMINATI

3 жыл бұрын

Definitely going to become standard in FG’s; some already have Daily Missions.

there are several factors why fighting games are in the space where they are now, they didn't allways used to be like this. the truth is that fighting games are behind in evolution when it comes to the casual market, i'd say tekken 3 and possibly soul calibur i can't remember the exact one but it was one of the earlier ones was the height of casual gameplay for fighting games and since then it have dropped the ball and tried to get the casual crowd into the competitive scene which isn't really for everyone. back in the day we had beat'em ups which was more or less a casual version of a fighting game, we had long story missions, other types of modes, cosmetical and character unlocks for just playing the game, ways to actually entertain yourself by actually playing against the CPU. what do we have now? trial missions just grinding to learn a combo? time trial? short cinematics? it really haven't evolved, imo i think it's devolved in order to serve the competitive market to focus on specifically the competitive scene and trying to pigeonhole everyone into it and trying to make it accessable and enjoyable to everyone which allways fail either the hardcore competitive purists or those who simply wanna play for a bit without wanting to really try too hard. the other thing that happened to fighting games is that they missed to please 3 big markets, the online community by having shitty netcode and also people who just wanna play with their friends and hang out and the solo player who want to play vs the cpu. really the only 2 markets they hit is the theme the game is based around, either legacy or it has characters that some people recognize from other games or media and fighting game enthusiasts. making a game accessable in the competitive scene is not the right answer and will probably never be. just give'em tekken force or red earth or something as a package deal with a competitive mode along side it that's both well made. imagine if pokemon wasn't a long RPG where you fought your way through CPU to collect badges to get to a boss and it only was PVP, not many would have played it.

The fighting game experience: Pay $60 to basically go to school and learn a to control a character for 30 to 80 hours. Then go online and get demolished for hundreds of hours more while the game feels like it's underwater. Great $60 experience. Who of healthy mind would subject themselves to that instead of a popular single player experience or a free to play (low commitment) multiplayer game

"There is no RNG factor" Faust entered the chat.

Another reason is due to the fact that you're up against a real person, someone with a functioning brain that adapts and evolves in real time at what you do which is completely different from going against a brain dead NPC.

does that mean bad netcode was helping fighting games by giving an excuse? rollback gonna kill fighting games rip

Something I tell people intimidated by combos, "Better players don't use combos to kill you, better players just use combos to kill you faster."

The barrier to entry in terms of having fun is really high in FG titles in comparison to other genres. The game doesn’t motivate you with rewards. So the only motivation is your own want to improve. Its not like that in other genres. I say this as someones whos first FG was tekken 7. I quit the game multiple times in my first year out of frustration with losing non stop for months. Eventually i improved at got decent and now i play it daily but i feel for new players.

@AchedSphinx

3 жыл бұрын

tekken 8's new marketing tag line: " wanna have fun? well be prepared to lose for 3 months straight or your money back."

@ANIMEILLUMINATI

3 жыл бұрын

And those new players constantly get beat up by smurfs...

One of your best videos, spitting facts! This is why every time I introduce a friend to fighting games, I always tell them the first step is to put aside their ego or tone it down a notch at the start, since losing is inevitable. Once you can get past that, fighting games are the best.

That’s probably the biggest factor in regards to the “approachability “ of fighting games and player retention. I do also think that there are preconceived notions about the nature of what is a match in a fighting game. You touched on this a little in your video about Frame Data but the concept of plus/minus or what I like to use the phrase “Fighting Games are turn based matches” which sounds counter intuitive until you get the concept of “taking your turn” and understanding the ebb and flow which not many people get and get frustrated because they feel like they can’t play the game cause their “turn” keeps getting taken away by being outplayed. You actively deny your opponent the ability to play (which Killer Instinct tries to solve with the Breaker system). Anyways I’m rambling but I hope I’m not too off base with these thoughts.

This is why we need a 3 v 3 arcade fighter with depth! For traditional 2d or 3d fighters I think there needs to be excellent single player content where newbies can learn, feel good, have fun， and win without having to step online. I think also perception is the issue too. People want to jump online without knowing anything and expect to win.

Fighting games are a study and take so much out of me. Most shooters today are live-die-repeat and easily accessible and doesn't require a phd in frame data

@nikkobird590

5 ай бұрын

Facts😂

I think having a sense of humility is what allowed me to transition from team based games like mobas or counter strike. I was always prepared to be critical of myself before blaming my teammates, so when it came time to be full responsible for my play in a 1v1 environment, I was ready to dedicate myself to improvement.

Another thing about Fighting Games vs other big competitive games is there is no time to rest really. Like if you die in an FPS/MOBA or run to an objective in a BR game, there is downtime, a time to think and plan where in fighting games you have no time. You have to make choices in seconds, 50/50s in less than a second. This can be mentally taxing. A huge problem I have is when I lose a match but it was close, like one or two hits difference. There is no 'good attempt' in rank, you lose you lose, no points, downrank, fuck off. So I have to sit there and hate myself waiting for another match, which can feel like forever depending. I can't stand waiting 5+ mins after losing for another match which I deal with all the time cause of where I live.

Smash Bros is a good alternative because it provides the option for tailored RNG with items and stage hazards. It’s honestly why I have a blast playing it.

Good points! Melee recently added hidden MMR into their unranked matchmaking that works extremely well. I think that might be one possible solution to make sure newer players can get an early first taste of winning and increase the chance of them sticking around. Being able to run into beasts by accident is one of the many charms about fg's tho imo and shouldn't be completely removed

Also, when newbies lose in a fighting game, they often don't understand WHY they lost, because they don't understand the game at all. So they don't even blame themselves and feel bad, they just blame the game. "Why did I get thrown? I was totally holding block!" "Why couldn't I escape that combo? I kept hitting my attack buttons!" "Why is this move so hard to do? Nobody can remember all those inputs!"

Fighting games, like most pvp games, are as hard as the opponents you are facing.

In my opinion it's not the 1v1 nature that hinders the fgc, but the fact that everyone keeps saying it's incredibly hard. I remember learning ggxrd and after a couple of weeks went on to reddit to learn more. While there I saw a thread where a new player asked how hard was the game and should they play it, and several people replied saying it was super difficult and not a good first fighting game. If I hadn't already been playing the game and known that was not entirely true, I might have never learned fighting games.

The Brad Pitt of the FGC does it again

Core-A gaming mentions the same thing. Your ego is ALWAYS on the line in fighting games. If you're deep in fighting games already then preserving your ego must not a be priority. at least not the no. 1 priority.

Great topic! If I recall correctly, some fighting games do reward you if you complete certain daily challenges. Maybe they could make this more "training-focused" so that if you spend a certain amount of time in training mode each day or practice certain combo's, they could give extra rewards? Maybe that will encourage new players to actually get better at the game.

A big factor about fighting games is that you always have to be on top of your game/better player to win the match. In team games you can usual get carried if you want to relax and have fun, but in fighting games you can’t relax. You have to always engage or else you’ll get trampled. In card games, you’re usually sitting there thinking and taking your time, but in fighting games you have to adapt immediately and most people can’t take the pressure.

Other things: Personal Victories: In mobas and shooters, due to the nature of being team based OBJECTIVE games, your personal performance does not guarantee a victory in a 1:1 ratio. You can go 12/0 or 0/12 and still lose or win regardless. FGs dont work like that, if you perform poorly you die, and then you lose 100%, no excuses. But in other games if you go 12/0, you probably don't really care about a win/loss, you might be salty if you lose but you'll think "damn I'm nice, my team was just holding me back." Modern devs call this personal victories iirc, and it's why so many games are team based and practically hand you "easy kills". Getting shot in the back, killstealing, deathstreaks, low health + low execution (only takes 3 shots to kill in COD, just point and shoot) and just luck. There are even some characters in mobas that give their kills to other players even if they did absolutely nothing. These easy kills rarely affect the outcome of a match, and only really make vets salty, but that kill going from 0/12 to 1/12 is the difference between them staying or leaving, modern devs consider this a "necessary evil". The closest thing a FG has to this is when you win a round but lose the match, but other than that there is no "inevitable free win", you can't just hit the guy with 5P 3 times and win, and even if you could you still have to do it twice in a row to actually win! Also assists, player damage, objective time, etc all protect players ego win or lose, there is no equivalent in a FG. Playerbase: It speaks for itself, when the only people left playing sweats, casuals won't want to stay, and if there are no casuals you wont get many new players to stay. It's a catch 22. I know the scene doesn't subscribe to this thought process, but it takes more than a million ass beatings to make a FG player in the same way it takes more than physical discipline to raise a child, you can't just belt a kid into becoming an adult. Maybe rollback and the influencers will prove us wrong though. The other day Xrd had 700+ players, how many do you think were tournament level?

This is a good point but I think he ignores a big barrier to entry and if gets a point wrong. Every game he listed that don't teach you how to play, actually teach you how to play. They teach you the core mechanics right off the bat and the rest comes with playing the game. With fighting games they can teach you a few main mechanics, like super meters and a basic special input. And when you're done you're left with short/bad story modes and online. With fighting games you're left in the dust. You have to literally look up your characters moves, go into training mode, memorize them and then after that learn on your own how to link them into combos. And new players can't really figure out good or optimal combos. Maybe a light to a special or light medium special. In order to learn the better more interesting combos you gotta look them up online and looking them up is hard when you want to learn. Then on top of that! You now have to practice those combos 100 times on each side in order for you to reliably do it. Then practice in matches to get rid of the panic hands. But then you need to memorize your opponents vast array of options/moves. In a game like cod everyone has access to the same stuff and it's less to memorize and a gun is a gun... It's not gunna change much. League is a solid comparison but it's easy to play against bots and play with friends. But it does have the massive amounts of characters and the difference between bits and players is immense. Older players forget what it's like when they were first playing their first fighting game. There's a huge learning curve. 1v1 games are intense and can make you rage and give up but it's not the reason fighting games are hard.

@Drebin1989

3 жыл бұрын

No they didn’t forget. If anything the newer players have more of an advantage now as far as getting info than the older players did. The learning curve in fighting games is no bigger than other games. It’s just that people have unrealistic expectations when it comes to playing them. Putting too much unnecessary pressure on themselves. There are a lot things that you have to remember in games like NBA2K as well.

only thing hard about fighting games is how my pool always seems to catch on fire and distract me, it's really weird.

Avid Starcraft fan here (since Brood War days), and this is exactly why I moved to playing fighting games. Starcraft matches took 20+ minutes if both sides are good, only to lose after a period of constant focus. THEN you have to watch replays to see what you missed scouting. Fighting games - no bullshit. A game of (mostly) complete information, and feedback is instant, so you learn so much faster. Appreciate the work you put into the community. Keep up the good fight.

"I lost because my opponent was on wifi" is the new hotness, it seems.

damn the Chaos Code music? Your St. Patrick's Day tree is up really early though

Ooooh the choas code ost in the background, I love u so much Jyuna just for that hahaha

"not me i always win" this autoplayed from a video of jiyunas leo getting washed by a potemkin

- this mu is 7-3 - my controller died - netcode/matchmaking - mcdonalds wifi - everyone who beats me is a smurf - the door rang - i m rusty - i play too solid to win - this game takes no skill to win - my dog unplugged my monitor

The 1v1 factor of fighting games is what actually makes me love them so much. It's really rewarding when you learn the matchup, keep improving and win. You kinda create a bond with a character that you like. Feels great.

Man Jiyuna's opinion is just on point. whenever I try to get my friends to play fighting game they are just too frustrated to the fact that there is no one to blame.

I don’t even take losing as a burden anymore, just glad that I’ve learned to not lose that way again. And that cycle of improvement is my favorite thing about fighting games

if you dont scratch your hands every start of the video, we riot

Played +r for the first time online last night. Proceeded to get whooped 3-87 from midnight to about 4:30 am. Even though sometimes the opponent was teleporting from rollback the experience was heaps better than delay based and its really discouraging me from wanting to play Answer in rev2. Really love the videos y'all have been pumping out

@ANIMEILLUMINATI

3 жыл бұрын

Everyone grinding content now.

Yeah man this is 100% what I was screaming when the other sajam came out with his video a while back. Another factor you might not have looked at is fps and similar are really common in the market right now, but fighting games are only really like other fighting games. So picking up a game like csgo or fortnite or whatever is a lot easier than picking up street fighter for most people since they've played similar things. They understand the basics already. And "hide behind cover to avoid getting shot" is far more intuitive a mechanic than "hold back to block". Many factors go into ease of learning.

The thing is I like games that offer me to team up with a friend, I do not want to fire up a FG and beat up my GF in it per example. I want to play WITH her not AGAINST her, I am not insecure and do not want to compete to discharge from everyday life or to prove to myself that I am capable, all competitve desire comes from that. There should always be an COOP mode, not PVP but 2 players against 2 players or on bots, either way that gives people like me an option to have fun with my loved ones and not compete against them, she stated this before me and it struck me why I feel like this. No insecurity = No competitive desire

A big part of it is just how unforgiving fighting games can be. If you're playing people who are at, or at least near, your skill level, whatever that happens to be, I think most people will tell you fighting games are pretty fun. For instance, I'm not super big on Netherrealms games, but when I play people who are also mediocre in MK, I enjoy myself immensely, and so do they, but if I hop online and get my teeth kicked in, it's hard to feel like I'm making any progress, because I'm probably not. When the gap is that wide, learning to optimize your play in real time is difficult to impossible. And unlike something like, say, Starcraft, there's much less room for error at lower levels of play, because the time scale is much smaller, and every touch has significant impacts on the final outcome. Part of the solution to this problem would be better matchmaking, and another part would be better designing AI in games so they can offer meaningful practice for players who aren't competent enough to get anything particularly valuable out of PvP.

Makes a lot of sense to me. I happen to be an individual that is prone to putting the blame on myself, and that kind of makes team games more difficult for me to get into whereas fighting games immediately felt like a solid fit - I'm never a burden to anyone else, and am only responsible for my own losses. Obviously, not necessarily the healthiest mindset in some regards, but I'm glad it at least enabled me to not be deterred from one of my favorite hobbies.

This is why I love fighting games. No frustration with teammates and I love how your growth shows over time. I know ranks don’t mean everything but after labbing i finally stopped being hard stuck ultra diamond in SFV and that’s all because of the grind. Great video Brian F

@ANIMEILLUMINATI

3 жыл бұрын

It’s a blessing and a curse.

Nice callout on the Chaos Code OST. Shit’s fire.

I feel like hitstun is the reason fighting games being not popular than games like League Of Legends and Call Of Duty, since I think this vid is comparing it to those games and I already noticed that games like what I mentioned earlier don't have hitstun whenever getting hit or getting shot. Well, except for games like GoldenEye 007 on the N64, where getting shot equals not being able to use a gun you're holding for a few seconds, so there's that.

Another big factor in the difficulty of FG's is the frequency at which you're required to make decisions. Coming from Melee, I'm taxed with making decisions based on stage knowledge, character matchup, opponent behaviour, conditioning and our characters' position and state (probably forgetting something) multiple times every second in a game with very high mechanical requirements. Fighting games have probably the highest frequency of relevant choices out of all multiplayer genres coupled with complex control systems making them hard to pick up, hard to master and really satisfying to win at. Shoutout to Quake tho.

Solo battle royale kind of has that vibe but that moment when you pull off an amazing combo or actually wash people makes it worth it! It’s like beating a challenging souls game LOL.

The 1o1 Situation isnt what makes it hard, RTS games like Starcraft have these too. What makes a Fighting Game hard imo is that you need a ton of knowledge (frames, spacing, making the right reads, movement, game mechanics in general and all the options and anti strats for how many characters you have in the game). At the same time you have to have really good reactions to make split second decisions for any given situations and beeing able to react to reactable moves. Often times you have to have good execution to get the optimal combos and setups. Fighting Games also suffer the absolute most from bad netcode and online connection in general. I can land headshots with online delay but I cant react to an (tekken for example) 23 frame low sweep that is barly reactable offline.

@ANIMEILLUMINATI

3 жыл бұрын

Hopefully the netcode gets fixed.

I agree, personal accountability is a huge part of why there's the perception that fighting games are difficult. I do think there's something to be said though about some games allowing for more passive play, like the healer role in many MMORPGs. There's the old saying, "different strokes for different folks," and I believe strongly that player psychology is a huge factor that leads people to make different types of choices, like between tank, healer, ranged DPS and melee DPS. The kinds of players in these sorts of games who like to sit back and play passively are very different kinds of people, mindset-wise, than the types of personalities that you see craving more demanding, high-risk, high-reward gameplay with positionals and complex rotations while being right up in a boss monster's face. That can be very anxiety-inducing for players who don't have the mental fortitude to keep beating their head against a wall up close and personal until it breaks, or high-anxiety individuals who don't handle those situations terribly well. The kinds of players with the Rocky Balboa mindset, who crave more and more rounds every time they get knocked down until they figure out how to overcome an obstacle, the kinds of personalities who will keep playing round after round for hours within arms length of an opponent with the determination and perseverance to keep going until they win (and by extension, feel the accomplishment of an earned victory), is not the sort of thing you tend to see with people who tend to play more passive roles in other games. It all comes down to player psychology. It's a mindset thing. For example, KizzieKay, one of the best Xrd players in the world, started at the very bottom, and lost hundreds of matches until he got better. He kept trying, like the old saying goes, "if at first you don't succeed, try and try again,". That sort of thing requires a degree of mental fortitude which I think is more common amongst older gamers who remember the days of Mario games with no continues (you die, you start at the very beginning), but less common these days where games offer too many options for passive players. That, and times have changed, so there are too many avenues for players - and by extension, people - to avoid having to deal with uncomfortable situations, so people have grown softer rather than developing ways to cope with the anxiety that comes with learning to deal with conflict and confrontation. Unfortunately, direct conflict is kind of at the core of 1v1 fighting games, where you are up close and personal with an opponent coming at you head-on, so I believe there's a correlation between the way a person deals with interpersonal conflict and that sort of personality type's ability to cope with the anxiety of overcoming obstacles in fighting games and any perceived difficulty therein. Players who tend to enjoy instant gratification and seeking low-effort victories and exploits tend to find the perceived barrier for entry overwhelming, compared to those personalities with perseverance and a craving for obstacles to knock down or glass ceilings to break. People with more aggressive mindsets, who feel like they have something to prove, tend to do lots better in these types of environments. Likewise, I think that lots of players like the IDEA of being good at fighting games, because they look cool and/or they watch lots of shounen anime and wish to have that power fantasy, but they themselves lack the sort of player psychology which thrives in these sorts of high-anxiety situations. I don't believe player psychology/personality type should be discounted in these sorts of discussions, but that's just my personal perspective.

U know what really hurts? Stuck in same rank for 3 years. Mah hart mah soul.

"You only won because i lost" I actually agree with that you say about people not wanting to play because of luck factors, but i see it the other way around. The reason why i like fighting games and not team based games is exactly that, i know that everything that i do is my fault and my responsibility, i don't like feeling like the other players are carrying me or feel like i screwed the others because of my fault. When i get salty in a fighting game is because i know i am not working hard enough or being incompetent, i get more frustrated with myself instead of being frustrated with the game or characters, i do complain about characters sometimes when i find them annoying but deep down i know ultimately it's my own fault. Actual RNG and having to sometimes literally depend on other people no matter how well you play is something i just can't stand

I think keeping new players going is tough in FG’s. I definitely think rewards like “well, I just lost 10 in a row, but I earned these sweet skins” might help smooth that initial curve. I’m pretty new to FG’s, and the initial learning curve just trying to figure out what the heck was going on sucked. If it hadn’t been for James Chen being super patient on Twitter and explaining a ton of stuff to me I’m sure I would have just decided it was too complicated and impenetrable and just given up. From a business standpoint that seems like a bad approach to game design, since it doesn’t really capture new players in the ecosystem.

I definitely believe that games that require communication are the hardest of all games without a doubt communicating with people is the hardest shit in town even in non game related situations! You all know what i'm talking about, some people just can't be dealt with! Aside from that i think that MOBAS are dead last in difficulty hands down. But the differences of difficulty are much much closer then you might think.

Fighting games have hundreds of problems for new and casual players and any given new fighting game tends to address a couple of the problems and ignore the rest If you want the short of it that I think is the MAIN problem, League and any other game can be played shittliy and still be fun, when you pick up a fighting game and don't lab for at minimum an hour, you will get destroyed and if you ask what to do you'll get told to get good, even labbing doesn't inform you about the entire games systems and match ups, you have to learn by eating it countless times, studying the games mechanics and watching high level players just to get the bare minimum understanding and ability to play

@ANIMEILLUMINATI

3 жыл бұрын

That’s very true.

Gotta put shmups in the conversation for tough competitive games. Getting on those leaderboards is a big mountain to climb. I should watch the video before commenting!

I think one of the biggest fighting game problems is that almost all other games are very different in terms of gameplay and when you pick a fighting game for the first time you have no clue what you are doing.

Fighting games don't teach you how to lay? Have you ever done the tutorial in Under Night? Will take you from absolute beginner all the way up to top end mechanics

@terrysalt

3 жыл бұрын

While that is true, a lot of people aren't going to go through a tutorial that extensive. What other genres do that I wish could be replicated here is teach you with gameplay so it doesn't feel like you're at school. But since the primary game is 1v1 (so you have no team mates to teach you) against an opponent who is there to defeat you, and has no incentive to teach you anything. It's a difficult challenge to overcome.