for me its all on the first point you said, if im going to play a game I want it to be fun before anything. to me playing a fighting and not even being able to really play the game because of how little I know isn't fun. If the bare minimum to PLAY the game is hours of learning frame data, combos, match ups, or before even any of that just learning the inputs. games are an escape and fun for me, and fighting games just sound like homework and it's not like this in other games even if I don't know what I'm doing I can still play the same game as everyone else, and in fighting games I never get that feeling

@amcclouds

Жыл бұрын

Peach

@NintendoSegaGuys

11 ай бұрын

Same.

@taylord5381

9 ай бұрын

I'd say my advice is to look at learning fighting games like learning how to play an instrument, take it piece by piece, figuring out each fundamental of a fighting games until the most important parts of the genre are just things you know without even thinking about it, like an instrument.

@rock-df4lm

4 ай бұрын

but then again, what's the point? I could pick up literally any other game and have fun from the get-go, instead of trying to learn one of the most frustrating genres in gaming!

@dazeen9591

4 ай бұрын

This is exactly the problem. Fighting games are too unintuitive. You're not learning by actually playing the game. You have to deliberately practice unintuitive tech and memorize frame data. I could learn 200 characters in FPS or Moba faster than I learn 1 character in a fighting game. And that is a problem.

I will utilize this method now I've been button mashing my whole life

I've always played fighting games, but only really played them casually with my siblings. However, sometime last year in college a guy invited me over to play a fighting game with him and although he claimed to not be that good, he was a lot better than me (since I was just a button masher). This motivated me to start to play fighting games on my own to improve my skills; learning things like blocking, guarding, special moves and a few combos. I haven't played with that same person again, but I ended up having more fun with those games than I did before after actually learning how to play.

sent this to a good friend of mine, that knows another particular person in mind (I'm talking to you ghostguy) who adamantly discards trying new things just on a surface level. maybe hearing these things from a different voice might actually push the core of the message through this time.

Yep, that about sums up why I don't like fighting games. Though another point you should consider is that people don't usually go get the arcadey fight stick controller that can actually register your inputs. Lots of people including myself tried to play fighting games with an xbox controller and felt like the game was just ignoring our inputs at inopportune times and end up getting our teeth kicked in.

@Pariah6950

2 жыл бұрын

What you use really doesn't matter that much. I use an Xbox controller for fighting games.

@purpleboye_

2 жыл бұрын

@@Pariah6950 Any move that requires a quarter circle turn of the analog stick works less than half the time for me. I don't know what you could possibly be doing right that I'm doing wrong.

@Pariah6950

2 жыл бұрын

@@purpleboye_ It just takes practice. Maybe try using the d-pad. Most people who use controllers for fighting games prefer it. Though I do use the analogue stick.

@Doktor_Jones

Жыл бұрын

@@Pariah6950 I tried to play SF4 with an XBox360 controller back then. It sucked. I lookes up the forums and all other people said it sucks. A mate tried it and said it sucked. Maybe the new one is better, but initial impressions and whatnot.

@KitCloud1

Жыл бұрын

@@Doktor_Jones it's also worth keeping in mind that the FGC just kind of accepts that you will never get to the point that there is 0% chance to drop an input, no matter what control method you use.

No offense, but this sounds more like a job than a video game.

@Pariah6950

2 жыл бұрын

None taken. It depends how you look at it. Learning any skill takes work.

Good take! I am one of those people who play all kinds of games except fighting games (except I've dabbled in Smash which is a whole other debate). One reason is that I'm not that much into being competitive I guess, but your point about motion inputs unearthed some buried memories. The only proper Fighter Game I played more than a little was Mortal Kombat on the N64 that we somehow ended up with growing up. My sisters and I had some enjoyment playing against each other (button-mashing), but we were extremely annoyed when playing against an AI and seeing all these crazy abilities they can pull off. Like, how do you do those? We had the manual, and I remember reading through that thing really carefully at least 10 times or so but nowhere did it mention how to do any of these special moves, or that they exist at all. I recall character bios mentioning some of them have magic or whatever, but nowhere did it say any of this could be used in-game. And this was before we were active on the internet so we were left blindly mashing and turning the control stick (which does wear down over time) until finally one of my sisters managed to get some of Sub-Zero's ice attacks working. But they only worked if he was on one side of the screen. With more messing around we found out the inputs were different if you were on the other side of the screen, and they weren't just mirrored. You had to do other stuff (or at least that's what I remember, this was like 20 years ago). It came across as, well, intentionally gatekeepy is how I'd describe it. There is all this cool stuff but the game and manual don't bother mentioning it. It gave me the impression that fighting games are only for the "in-group" and newcomers aren't welcome, or if they are then only to beat their ass and trash-talk them for not knowing you have to flip the stick around exactly 271.532 degrees counter-clockwise starting from the top and press BBBAARRLABABBAABA for some weird special move that isn't mentioned anywhere. I have since grown up and learned fighter games aren't super toxic or anything, but I can't say I have much motivation to try them out. Once again, great video!

@Pariah6950

2 жыл бұрын

I had a very similar experience as a kid playing SF2 on Genesis. Thankfully nowadays fighters do actually tell you the moves and mechanics and how to do them. So we've made some progress since the 90s.

You know I never noticed that alot of gamers who do play different kinds of games don't play fighting games. I grew up on Street Fighter so fighting games are always part of my life. I DID cool off of playing other people alot tho, but that's mostly because I've always been kindof a solo player. IT was better when I was going to arcades and stuff but I had a few off experiences online and just kindof went away from it. But the biggest reason is most of the games I played or series I played I stopped liking. Street fighter just doesn't feel the same and I fell off. I'm getting into guilty gear tho so I might pop back into it. Cause Fighting games ARE fun as hell. The best for me is learning characters and match ups and watching myself get better and better in fights. Win or lose.

While I still don't play fighting games that much, (Mainly because I really do look at 1v1 and multiplayer modes in games as a novelty) I did surprisingly like Fighterz a lot more than other fighting games. I don't think it was just because it was an easier fighting game than most either. If my memory serves me correctly, the way the tutorials were set up in that game sort of fixed the main issue you were talking about in your video for me. After each tutorial, there's a mini fight with AI where the game is hands-off and basically says "Try your best to beat the opponent" which lets the player apply what they just learned into certain situations in battle

This video inspired me to set up fightcade again and hop on some HFTF matches with a buddy.

4:05 boy. We played fighting games FOR the novelty. We didn't play MKII for the combos but for the fatalities. We played it not for some imagined technicality but the sheer awe this franchise brought to our homes. Of course we started to get better but only because we were interested. If getting good is the main requirement to get interested in fighting games that is also why many people don't get into that anymore. Having funny, being goofy, being intrigued.

"Playing a fighting game single player, you're not really playing a fighting game" Bruh if this is your stance, you don't need the rest of the video, you've already answered the question. A large majority of gamers play games for single player. Even in multiplayer focused genres like the big name shooters have campaigns and vs bots modes, because some people have no interest in anything beyond that and a large percentage of people that will eventually move onto multiplayer still need the single player to build an appreciation for the games primary loop. If your genre is so lacking that singleplayer can't be created from it, there's a reason why it's niche. Having said that it's a well made video, you covered a good breadth of the issues involving this topic most videos on the subject tend to ignore, and I don't disagree with your point that issues like motion inputs/combos are more scapegoats in the miscommunication between casual players and the greater FGC. Also appreciate that you made a whole segment devoted to actually solving the problem instead of passing the buck to hypothetical devs making future games.

From my personal experience, someone can be led to believe that an entire genre just isn't for them because they just didn't find that particular game in the genre that resonates with them. Aside from this, a few reasons why I just didn't get into fighting games for years was a combination of a few major things. One being that 99.9% of my tastes in video games lean heavily towards single player, I'm not really a fan of just playing with randos online and getting destroyed constantly, and finally, I just couldn't find the right game for me that really clicked. However, I did finally find the game that made me understand fighting games, that being Under Night In-Birth, as well as my younger brother and some of my friends also picking up the game around the same time so that I have people I personally know around my skill level to learn and improve with. I'm not saying that I'm great at fighting games now, or even good, but at least I now have fun with them.

@Pariah6950

2 жыл бұрын

Having friends to play with can be a colossal factor. Fighting games are by far at their best when playing with friends at close skill levels.

@yamchayaku

Жыл бұрын

Oof... I feel this... I just got to gold rank in SF6, and I'm pretty much getting destroyed now. Battle hub is full of platinums and Diamonds, and I've pretty much ranked myself away from my peers. Also the skill difference between a lv6 cpu and a lv7 one is pretty large. I don't even want to share my experience with a lv 8, lmao

The pocket fighters demonstration just made me want to play it more. I love how many options there are.

super late but i think a huge thing is that its hard to get other people interested. say you wanna learn a fighting game but you're new to the genre, ai teaches you nothing and online has you constantly getting stomped. (at least in most games i've played, i don't tend to play newer games often ) Alright, then just play with friends. except, well, if your entire pitch is essentially "i have nobody else to play this with, want to learn it with me" you're going to have a hard time convincing anyone to give them a shot. I'm sure you can claw your way in by just putting in a good amount of effort and slowly learning by getting your ass kicked, but generally the investment before you can get to the actual game is reallllly high if alone, and generally still offputting if you can convince a friend.

Id like to know if its just complex fighting games or if a games like windjammers and and lethal league blaze are considered equally unapproachable by people who really dont like fighting games. Or power stone or smash

Bro Z Input Specials is hard as heck to do on normal controllers, like fr I want to do a Spider Sting in marvel vs capcom 2 but I cant seem to perform it

People's problems with motion inputs has always fucking baffled me. Want to roll down that big hill in sonic 2's first stage? 632. Want to jump onto a ladder in megaman? A698 or A478. Want to put your car in first gear? Clutch pedal(hold) 547. Want to stir your Mac and cheese? Full circles baby. Don't even get me started on the similarity to phone lock screen patterns.

i like the auto combo system to press a button to pull off a tech. like in tekken 7. i dont want to input a cheatcode to do certain things if at all. I agree with the unintuitive inputs. Maybe that is why smash is so popular.

@Pariah6950

2 жыл бұрын

Personally, I don't like auto combos. For one, they encourage people to just mash buttons, pushing them away from learning to stop doing that. And they are always weak combos that do much less than manual ones, meaning players still need to learn real combos if they want to improve. It doesn't really fix anything. But certainly I do think the easy inputs and lack of combos is at least part of the reason for Smash's popularity. I actually cut out a large part of the video discussing what I think makes Smash popular as opposed to other fighters.

@angrygarbanzo5436

Жыл бұрын

@@Pariah6950 You should make it into it's own video.

@manzanito3652

Жыл бұрын

Tekken 7 doesn't have autocombos. Those "mash button combos" are just premade strings of attacks. And they aren't even good because the opponent can block or evade between the attacks and punish you.

On one hand I agree with reasons people don't play fighting games but on the other hand I'm happy because this video adresses a broader scope of arguments despite never acknowleging them as legitimate. Feels weird.

That may be someone's problem, but i don't think is everyone's problem with then, 'cause i just don't find then fun, i have tried a lot of fighting games, from really bad ones like anime fighting games to okay/good ones like the first 3 Marvel VS Capcom games. And i just don't enjoy then, im someone proactive, i like to go on the offensive and if im force on the defense to look for a way out, i have no problem with that, but win or losing very quickly i just stop having fun. And i wonder, why am i playing this? And i think that's just 'cause it's not for everyone.

@drethemage9559

Жыл бұрын

You don't like fighting games because you don't enjoy them. You hate them because of the reasoning this guy made for you. Did you really think you have any free will?

If a game has Smash-level motion inputs and commands, then I'm fine with it, and I mean for the regular characters, not the fighting game ones. If not, I just can't get into them. I have shmups for my fix of games that feel unwelcoming to newcomers.

@beaneater4277

Жыл бұрын

You should take a look at DnF duel then. Every character has simple inputs and there are super clear cut archetypes

See this video basically explains why I don't find them appealing. To have fun playing them you need to "git gud". And in order to do so, you need to learn the mechanics. And since these games are so deep, these mechanics are hard to learn and take a while to master. So basically you're only gonna have fun in these games after you learn all that boring stuff which takes time, something that not many people have. In my opinion, video games should be fun from the start. If a game isn't appealing to me in it's first hour then I'm probably going to drop the game. I don't wanna keep playing until I get to the "fun part" just because the game has complex mechanics. However, I'm not against complex mechanics in video games. As long as they're fun and you don't *need* them in order to enjoy the game, I think there's nothing wrong with complexity. To me, a video game should be easy to pick up first and foremost, although I understand why people think differently. And I'm also not against having to put effort in learning stuff in fighting games or games in general. Learning any skill takes effort. If I want to become, let's say, the best Pikmin 3 player in the world (whatever that even means or entails lol) I would obviously need to put effort. Thing is, in fighting games, this effort is required for you to have fun in the first place, and the process of training and "mastering your skills" isn't particularly fun.

@Pariah6950

Жыл бұрын

That is not at all what I was trying to say with this video. If you haven't, I recommend watching my Why Play Multiplayer Games? video. In that I discuss the very idea of having to "git gud" in order to enjoy competitive games.

I'm only about 5 minutes in, but I don't really fit into the 3 categories listed. I tried to learn how to get into fighting games many times. I tried it with HFTF, SF3, Tekken 7, Skull Girls, SF5, and SF6. And its not like I spent no time trying to learn, I had a friend who, while not being great, had still played fighting games since he was young, so much better than me. I had a mentor, and I had time, I spent 6 hours straight one night trying to do a quarter circle consistently in HFTF. I spent more hours trying to do it in Skull Girls, I spent hours doing it in SF6, and I still failed. I chose characters my friend played specifically so he could teach me things, it didn't help, because like I said, I couldn't do a quarter circle. I looked for advice on how to do them, tried different control schemes, methods, like controller/keyboard, nothing. I truly tried to get into these games, but really? I think I am going to have to write the genre off. Sure, smash-likes don't typically use heavy motion inputs, but I tried Brawlhalla too, and after training for hours, nothing there too, same with Rivals of Aether. When people say they don't like fighting games, they usually mean the typical side-scroller type anyways. I don't think there is a "fighting game for me" as I've seen so vehemently proclaimed, because game genres aren't really a monolith in terms of how consistent they are in scope. RPG can refer to an FPS, a JRPG, a TPS, a side-scroller, a horror game, or anything in-between. Fighting games are much more specific, in 99% of cases, the term applies to 3 types of game. A SF-esque side-scroller, Tekken-esque half-3d movement, or Smash-like platform fighters, and I've even seen the argument Smash-esques should be its own genre of "platform fighter" instead of being tied to the fighting game genre, so I'm not sure how much that even applies. I want to do a motion input consistently, that's the only bar stopping me from really, truly trying them, and maybe liking them, but its a bar I just can't seem to cross. Edit: Just wanted to add this, I think a big breaking point was back when I was training on HFTF. After hours of training, I got into a practice match with a friend and almost did a frame perfect instakill- or whatever wacky name perfects were called in HFTF- and he was very impressed. Truth was, I was just trying to do a quarter circle consistently, and failed so hard I accidentally did that. It didn't feel like an accomplishment, or even neutral, it felt awful, because I had no control over my character. It felt like every movement I did was completely out of my hands, I never knew what I was going to throw out because I couldn't do a damn quarter circle.

I feel like hitstun is what keeping people from not playing fighting games

6:52 Holy do I get not far before you utter something stupid again. We do not all have the same reaction speed. As an older gamer now my reflexes are nowhere the same level as they were 20 years ago. From 2000 to 2003 I was a fighting game demon. But that is a long time ago. Maybe you have these twitch reactions. Maybe you got other things going on of which we must not know about.

I got this video on my feed. Interesting topic. I always find it hard to verbalize as I'm fairly new at playing fighting games. Most other content creators tend to focus on how fighting games are "different" or how "you don't have teammates to blame", as if the reason people play League of Legends is because they can blame teammates. I think you get to the point: Fighting games are seldom taught properly. You could argue the same about other game genres, but I'd like to think why these other game genres stick is not because of the tired "teammates" trite, but rather because even if you have little skill, you're still able to press Q in Overwatch and maybe you get to kill 1-3 people and feel cool. Mobas have the same thing going for them. You have more complicated card games like Yu-Gi-Oh but you can also play very simple card games like Runeterra and Hearthstone where again, you can play like total hot dog water and sometimes you're still able to pull a cool move. In fighting games, when you don't know, it's rough, you don't get to play the game nearly as much. It reminds me of an interaction at locals, where this new player came in and clearly had issues knowing how to block properly and when to use what move. One more experienced player stomped him repeatedly and gave him advice along the lines of "Did you know that if you use this move after this move, you can use that other move?". To a player who understands their fundamentals a bit more, this might be decent advice, but to a newcomer, it's just terrible. This guy is probably never coming back. Teaching is not a skill everyone has. Mentioning locals is a bit odd, but I do think it's an important part of the culture of fighting games. From my own travels and having frequented locals in other locations as a spectator, and talking to new players about their experience. If I were to use 3 words to describe local fgc communities, it would be "clique", "egos", and "awkward". Your mileage varies a lot depending on where you're located. It's really strange to contrast my experience with some content creators like Pat Gill trying to get people into fighting games. Fighting games also have weird accessibility issues that I think hurt the genre. Booting up Strive, it can take me upwards of 10 minutes to even get to the point where I'm actually fighting someone. Loading screens, joining a lobby, battle stations don't work. And even then, sometimes the game you get is not good, you fight someone with 500 ping and rollercoaster frames. These are issues that have been dealt with in other games quite a time ago, and fighting games lag behind.

@Pariah6950

Жыл бұрын

I definitely agree. If you suck at shooters, you can still get a kill every now and then and play objectives. In a fighting game, playing against a good player means you don't even get to control your character for the majority of the match, as your constantly in hit stun. That is extremely off-putting. When I play against friends who don't play fighters much, I teach them through, "bullying". For example, if I notice they always hit buttons on wakeup, I start repeatedly sweeping them. After a few in a row, I start throwing in a "Why aren't you blocking?" Every time I do it. Seems mean to take advantage of someone who doesn't know things like frame advantage and meaties. But after 6th time, they realize what's happening and start to block. It forces them to learn. Then I do it again, but once they have demonstrated they know to block in this situation, I throw them and say, "Why are you blocking?" That teaches that blocking isn't always the answer and that you need to be aware of your opponent conditioning you. And so on and so forth. Tactics like this have done more for teaching my friends to play fighting games than any tutorial I've ever seen.

@fiorin_rhiri

Жыл бұрын

@@Pariah6950 There's this great article from Patrick Miller about how to be a good sparring partner. It's a very good read. Unfortunately, I don't think that quite registers with many. The FGC enjoys lip service about wanting new players, but action feels scarce. This is bad because the FGC has too many games that people play that are pretty much discord fighters. It's extremely difficult for new players under those circumstances. You really need to have that innate drive to want to play these games. Long term that doesn't work that well.

i like lossing , all fighing game have 15% win rate x 10000 games maybe or more and still play it =)

5:35 getting into the fun part does not necessarily mean to play against other humans. I don't even understand why you determine your opinion as if it was fact.You might have fun getting boned by online absolutes. But most people just don't need that level of masochism in their lives.

I have a counter argument, as someone who's tried to get into fighting games many, many times, and just couldn't. First off, and I'm not pointing at you or any other specific person, fighting games in general just have this feeling of elitism. I don't know what it is, maybe it's that the competitive side is what's mainly focused on with a lot of them, and like tier lists and shit. Second off is that I personally much prefer a single player experience. I'm not a social person at all, talking to someone I'm not super close with is like pulling teeth, so when I play games, I enjoy just being able to be by myself. One aspect of this I'm sure more people relate to, is that I enjoy 100% completing games... which, with most fighters, isn't even a thing you can do. Especially when it comes to retro fighters, which usually don't even save progress unless there are unlockable characters. On the topic of how a fighter "teaches", I will say BlazBlue Cross Tag Battle has an EXCELLENT tutorial, and I did actually get into it for a couple weeks just playing online. I'd love to get into fighters, I'm sure I'm missing out on a lot of games. I love the shit out of hack & slash action games and fighters are basically just that but one-on-one instead of rooms of enemies connected with hallways. I was able to get into RPGs and shooters and SRPGs and more realistic racing games, all genres I once hated, but fighters just... aren't built for my personality type. Which really does suck.

@Pariah6950

2 жыл бұрын

I talk about some of what you say here in my Why Play Multiplayer Games? video. Check that out. As for fighters, if they're not for you they're not for you. The fact that you've tried and gotten in to one for some time is already a lot more than what most people would be willing to do. Elitism, I guess it depends where you look. Personally, I don't pay attention to the online communities or competitive scenes of most games. I just play. Things like tier lists are worthless to anyone but top level players anyway.

@Doktor_Jones

Жыл бұрын

@@Pariah6950 you don't pay attention to the communities. YET you are talking about a genre that is basically impossible to get into, without community resources and reaching out to people.

@Pariah6950

Жыл бұрын

@@Doktor_Jones I can tell you from personal experience. It is possible to get into fighters without community resources or reaching out to others.

3:00 wrong. Fighting games work when the arcade mode is properly implemented which was the case in like 95% every time I played an old fighting game. It never works playing against dumb strangers online. It ruins the atmosphere. It tanks my immersion. The sweat lords and smurfs are just the tip of the iceberg of online fighting game suckage.

Bro did a 29 minute video for a question he solved in the first 10 minutes.

Whenever I hear about motion inputs, I think of Sabin from Final Fantasy 6.

The reason I hate fighting games is because they're unintuitive. I only have fun in video games when I am winning. And the only way to win consistently is to be very good at the game. And the only way to get good at the game is LABBING unintuitive tech, frame data and combos for hundreds of hours. Labbing is not fun. It ruins the entire genre. It takes a considerable amount of time to even be able to pilot your character in a fighting game. In any FPS or Moba I can learn 200 characters faster than I can learn 1 character in a fighting game. That is the problem. You can't get good at a fighting game, simply by playing it as a fighting game. You have to look up tutorials on specific tech and go practice them in a training mode. And that's boring. I'm not doing that. I play video games to have fun. And only way I have fun is winning. So why would I voluntarily pick to play a game that is not enjoyable to play?

@Inapeeina

4 ай бұрын

Have you tried games like windjammers or lethal league blaze?

@dazeen9591

4 ай бұрын

@@Inapeeina never even heard

@msnlp898

3 ай бұрын

The point is, when you learn fighting games they are the most enjoyable multiplayer experience

@dazeen9591

3 ай бұрын

@@msnlp898 learning is not enjoyable. It's enjoyable once you've already done all the learning and can focus on playing.

@msnlp898

3 ай бұрын

@@dazeen9591 exactly

I don't play them because there is no point to playing them. The only reason to play fighting games is to get good at them and I just don't see the point nor feel any satisfaction from that

I can sum it up in a few words. You spend too much time getting better at the game and you always hit a wall and it sucks losing non-stop. Why do that when you can spend your valuable time doing anything else. It feels too much like work and not fun.

Fighting games are not meant to be online multi player spectacles either. If I remember things correctly you got arcade mode first and the 2 player option coming second in all fighting games. Those were simpler times, I know. But the arcade mode should always be the number one reason to play a fighting game. Play the game with multiple characters and get your score. Orhave an extra mode to keep you going and getting better on YOUR OWN terms. Today with a fake community focus on online multi player it is evident to me how wrong you are. This fighting game community got to dictate nothing on me. Not their house, not their rules. I wonder when we single players that might enjoy some couch co-op from time to time take back what was once ours. Even in the arcades you never played against random strangers but always against your best friends. Why would I play against random idiots online now? See the problem? It is not me but what is demanded to be considered a fighting game player nowadays. And I say fuck that.

They have never appealed to me. I don’t know why. I don’t even like watching other people play fighting games. I have tried games like street fighter 2 back in the day and played some Tekken with friends and more recently I played killer Instinct (free to play) for a bit. I did not have fun much fun. Playing with friends was probably the best experience out of those but we were almost just button mashing.