My personal theory is that Big E's detachment when talking to Land about Angron is because E appears to people exactly how they expect him to appear. Land expected a detached scientist, so he got that. Peter Turbo expected somebody who would underestimate him and use him for grunt work, so he got that. Angron expected a "high rider" who wouldn't care about him, etc. I think there's a few possible flaws in this theory, but I honestly believe Big E does this reflexively at this point in the story. What Girlyman sees after his resurrection when he meets Big E is, I think, an amalgamation of all of that. He is seeing all the people Big E has been over the millennia. Was it because Big E was losing control, or because he wanted Papa Smurf to get a glimpse behind the curtain...?

@NefariousElasticity

Жыл бұрын

The Emperor manifesting as whatever the person he's interacting with expects is pretty much confirmed in canon iirc, so I'd believe that. He seems to be more of an idea than a person.

@michaeldavis8250

Жыл бұрын

​@@NefariousElasticity malcador, who knew the Emperor better than anybody, seems to think he did kind of love at least some of his sons, and wasnt planning to kill all of them after the crusade -- just the ones like Angron who couldnt be rehabilitated. I got that sense from The End and the Death part 1.

@VallornDeathblade

Жыл бұрын

The most recent book puts some emphasis on the way the Emperor moves between different masks that he puts on and different aspects of his nature that he puts forwards at different times and for different people. Plus, we have his Son-Dad bonding session with Sanguinius in the most recent book where he actively comforts his angelic son and shares his plans and foresight with him, at least to some degree he really does care.

@aria5614

Жыл бұрын

Me as reader: oooh this is *devious* Me as writer: ooooh I hate that (tell me more) My characters: losing their goddamn minds when they realize it and going WTF ARE YOU?!

@Rhysman30

Жыл бұрын

That is actually the accurate assessment, corroborated by the latest book, The End And The Death. Big E wears whatever guise he needs in the moment.

He's not Abel. the Daemon is the murder itself. The first one. The act itself given form. More abstractly, he's the End of Empires. Betrayal. Brother against brother. The Daemon of the Heresy itself made fat by the War. The Daemon is also of the greater undivided essence of chaos. It knows the truth of the Choir.

@harmonlanager2670

Жыл бұрын

Hot take: the title “Master of Mankind” isn’t referring to the Emperor but Drach’nyen because humanity is always driven by its violent urges.

@sarasho6098

Жыл бұрын

I believe Oll Pius is Cain. He has a stone knife which is the instrument of the first murder and seems to have used it before. He has connections to the old testament biblical story and one might say he is marked and cannot die. Also: "But the Lord said to him, “Not so; anyone who kills Cain will suffer vengeance seven times over.”". Horus kills him and then die.

@itzamedio5427

Жыл бұрын

​@@harmonlanager2670 ooooo I like that.

@korstmahler

Жыл бұрын

@@sarasho6098 He took the Anathame (combining the words Anathema, a conflicting opposing force and Athame, a ritual dagger) from a dead Word Bearer during the destruction of the Ultramarian world of Calth.

@qigonglungz

Жыл бұрын

@@korstmahler SPOILERS: "Know No Fear" or something like that... its one of the best Guilliman books... this man reveals that he can function and fight while in the Void runinng across and battling on the OUTSIDE of a ship... that's a big deal... and he can survive an Anathame stab and not be corrupted... This book is why I like and respect the Blonde Blueberry. And his personality and character are borderline flawless, he's a "hero" for sure.

I still love that the Emperor creeped Ra out because he actually smiled and he has never done that it only appeared as if he had and when he truly does it scares his custodian.

@simpeldisaster4533

Жыл бұрын

I genuinely forgot about that part and I love it.

Honestly what stuck to me about the book is the Emperor's final line when asked "What do we do now" and he responds "I don't know" For ONE TIME, one single solitary line of dialogue, Emperor showed a bit of weakness. For maybe the only time ever in the lore, Emperor was uncertain and couldn't hide it. And it was a great note to end the book on

@araposkulo

Жыл бұрын

There was also the part before he fought Fall of Empires where Ra saw hesitation (or was it doubt) on Big E's face before he charged the deamon. Really shows you how powerful that thing is.

@sussyfallen2914

8 ай бұрын

I finished the book about an hour ago and YES, chills!

How the emperor is portrayed is highly HIGHLY dependent on who is writing the book. Which I get because he is basically a blank slate in the earliest lore of 40k.

@Broomer52

Жыл бұрын

Yet it all kinda fits because it’s hinted constantly that Big E doesn’t care about his sons and even Guilliman upon returning and taking to him was upset with the talk and saying how this wasn’t the man he thought he knew. The reason why he made Horus the Warmaster was because he knew if a traitor would emerge it’d be from that position. He would rather it be someone useful in the moment but easy enough to deal with when they turned traitor. He made it Horus who was an excellent tactician and general but was extremely egotistical and constantly needed his self esteem puffed up. Had he not come to that conclusion he would have made Lion Warmaster but the Lion is too much of an immovable stone, he’s an excellent general and warrior with absolute confidence and drive, that would be far more dangerous to fight than Horus. In leaks for the newest Lion book the Lion encounters a withered king on a boat fighting in a river. The Lion is trying to figure out who he is, where he is, who the king is but he doesn’t answer. The Watcher in the Dark says he doesn’t answer because he’s not asking the right questions. The King is being circled by four shadows swimming in the water and the moment Lion stepped in the water they tried to go after him and the King told him to get out because he’s not strong enough. Eventually Lion realizes the Withered King is The Emperor and they’re in the Warp. He asks Big E how to heal him and he doesn’t answer but gives him a look of anger as if the thought of fixing what he’s become would be the wrong move and the thought of healing him pisses Big E off. What he’s become, what he’s done, and what he’s doing are terrible but he does it all because he believes humanity needs a monster and a tyrant. The arrogance of Big E has and always will be his biggest trait

@TheVegeta67

Жыл бұрын

@@Broomer52 My personal interpetation is that Big E does love his sons, he loved them enough to give them names before Chaos took them away in their incubation pods. But, he is in denial about it since he knows he shouldn't be.

@95keat

Жыл бұрын

The writers don't have to talk to each other about how they set up their stories or write their characters which causes quite a bit of conflict between them. I imagine this book claiming that the emperor doesn't care about his son's caused quite a bit of ruckus in black library

@thewerdna

Жыл бұрын

there is still some evidence he cared about them to some extent. For example, he had private villas made on terra for each of them, which he never told them about. He was prepping places for then to retire to when the crusade was over, so he definitely wasn't planning on killing them at least. Malcador also states in the most recent book that he believes the Emperor does actually care about them, but acts like he doesn't because the Emperor views this as a weakness and thus believes he shouldn't care

@TheVegeta67

Жыл бұрын

@Alsonallu That works with how the old Realms of chaos: Lost and the Damned portrayed how the emperor killed Horus after Chaos's hold on him left him. He casted out his mercy and compassion to kill him because.

When it comes to Emps not giving a shit about Primarchs, I think there's a big part of that scene that is being forgotten. It's from the perspective of Mr. Land. The Emperor, as we are told and as we've seen, always appears as what he needs to be at any given point in time. At this time, he was the Omnissiah talking to His techpriest. Love and affection wouldn't impress Land, only cold logic, reason and fact. So, he played that part. And let's be honest, Land oiled his robes from that. I love how it just adds fuel to the fire of Emperor being a massive asshole, while at the same time leaves a backdoor for interpretation and thought about his real motives and feelings.

@korstmahler

Жыл бұрын

Indeed! The whole book carries a thread of that, where you see Big E from different eyes in different ways. Ra saw him as a multiple forms in visions but also saw him as a giant like himself in golden armour, Land saw the Omnissiah made humble flesh and labcoat, and so on. If I recall, while he's on the throne his image is said to be in flux, at least to those who can actually see past the light he or the throne is emitting. The Sisters of Silence see a just a man, in stillness and agony upon the golden throne. Occasionally, he twitches in either pain or effort.

The part where people hate this version of the Emperor comes from very different portrayals of him in other books. Essentially the Emperor is not a character in the stories, but he is a plot device that is used to fit the narratives needed for the circumstances. ADB has always written the Emperor has being an uncaring bastard person and always will because that's what he needs the Emperor to be. That Version of the Emperor justifies Curze, vindicates Angron, makes Lorgar suffer and helps make the cycle of the core story start, he *has* to be that way. If the Emperor treated his sons like Vulkan, or Corax, it would have been impossible. It creates the swing of perception that allows for the loyal sons and the fallen sons to play out the war. The Custodians aren't there just to kill Astartes, they are there to kill everything that could threaten the Emperor. Them being able to kill Space Marines well is a byproduct of their function, not it's primary point.

@gokbay3057

Жыл бұрын

Classic Aaron "Daddy issues" Bowden

@starwolf7365

Жыл бұрын

This! Is exactly why I didn't like this book.. and that is also a pretty badly written book. I have no problem with the Emperor not being perfect or actually good. But, how he is shown here is... Bad. Especially when so many other books show him in a different light. Too many authors I think.

One of the reasons why I like Guilliman so much is because he behaves so much like the Emperor, but unlike him and even other primarchs, Guilliman recognizes that he is not perfect ever since his adopted father died, he always put his strategies and tactics to the fire and if they fail he tries again improving his previous mistakes.

@svenbrede6151

Жыл бұрын

Yeah. I genuinely think that the best possible empire would've been with Sanguinius, Guilliman and the Lion at the top

I know its Death of the Author and all that, but ADB has gone on record to say that the Emperor in MoM has this passive effect that makes the people he talks to see him in a way. So the Emperor only refers to Angron as "12" to Arkan Land because Arkan Land refers to the primarchs as their number. A lot of stuff in the Heresy also falls completely apart if the emperor actually never cared about his sons. Like... a lot of stuff. like the final moments of the Heresy.

@MrSamulai

Жыл бұрын

A lot of people bring that up. But since this is THE book meant to shine light on Emperor, it's likely the depiction within is closer to the truth. A lot of the plotholes can be explained by him being able to see the future (and being a sociopath).

@duncantiv

Жыл бұрын

They do a good job in describing the uncertainty of precognition in 40k though, so I really don't feel like Big E "knows" the future, just the goal he is shooting for. It makes me think that the Imperial Truth and the Webway Project were plan A, but the Heresy and everything it entailed were a less desirable plan B.

@joanjorge566

Жыл бұрын

@@MrSamulai I Dunno Big E seeing the future and still taking all the actions that he did dont make much sense since it would be a lot better to try and avoid the heresy than to lean into it. Big E can probably see potential futures and was aiming for one with humanity cut off from the warp with the use of the wedway cutting of a big part of the chaos gods power by stopping all religions and worship.

@gama343

Жыл бұрын

@@MrSamulai Not just the Emperor, but plenty of other characters who make hefty use of future sight shenanigans. There's a whole big damn field of plot holes that get filled in nicely when you factor in other characters using future sight and jockeying with their psychic powers to influence the futures they want to see. Every Eldar seer, every Chaos sorcerer, every Chaos god, Big Emps, various smaller xenos factions with their own psychic leadership, plenty of Daemon Princes, even Mechanicum guys with Dark Age Warp-based predictive logic engines, all using a multitude of divination techniques and psychic fuckery to see the future, influence what events occur from afar and obscure visions of the future from their rivals. Characters doing this sort of sneaky shit often only get a brief mention and then swiftly get forgotten, only to show up like four books later or in a different series with their little nudge a thousand pages ago paying huge dividends.

@michaeldavis8250

Жыл бұрын

That's the implicit canon, no matter what the author says. End and the Death touches on this from Malcador's perspective and basically confirms it. Also, the sisters of silence see the Emperor completely differently from everybody else -- just a normal man screaming silently on the throne. Even malcador only sees what Big E wants him to, but probably has more insight than most. Also, in The End and the Death malcador seems to think the Emperor actually does care about at least some of his sons and wasnt planning to eliminate all of them at the end of the crusade -- just the ones like angron and curze who couldn't be rehabilitated.

People make this mistake about the Emperor, , people see in the Emperor what they WANT to see, Land sees a emotionless creator who thinks only logically and feels no love, the Primarchs see a great general and their Father so that is what he is..... the Emperor has his own goals but when you meet him you see and hear what you want to hear that will convince you to go along with it. If a Mechanicus adept, Primarch and Noble house politician were all in the room with the Emperor to hear his plans all 3 would hear the see the Emperor say and do different things but all of them would be convinced by his plan at the end.

the best part of the book is the Emperor telling Land that Angron is to big of a mess. Big E is like "even I can't fix that shit!"

@worldeater2414

Жыл бұрын

More like he didn't want to try lmao

@archer9480

Жыл бұрын

@@worldeater2414 I do not disagree with this in any way, but I also feel compelled to point out that of course a World Eater would say that.

@jack-if4fg

Жыл бұрын

Then why did you not put him out of his misery big e of fools

@emanuelursan8047

Жыл бұрын

Thing is HE NEVER SAID IT. The emperor never speaks with his mouth open... Land sees the Primarchs as erors so when he talks to the emperor he only hears what his mind wants to hear. The same with the custodes, they think they are superior so they hear what they want. In the last siege of Terra book the emperor (from Malcador's own mouth) cared about his sons

@Lu-db1uf

Жыл бұрын

@@emanuelursan8047 Malcador just heard what he wanted to hear.

The book was never going to tell the story from the Emperor's perspective. No author is going to do that. His POV is off limits, because it robs him of his mystery. Aaron was very clear about that when he wrote this. The only way you can learn more about the Emperor safely, is from other people's perspectives. Which is exactly what he delivered. Multiple accounts from various perspectives and how they all see something different from the Lord of Man.

I liked the book, as a game of thrones enjoyer I liked the build up. I like the portrayal of the emperor where he’s so beyond humanity but trying to be human. Also it makes sense that the strongest daemon was able to hurt the emperor when a primork almost killed him in the first hh book

@koreyclark5677

Жыл бұрын

I agree, I actually have master of mankind as one of my top 5 40K novel’s as I love the constant build up and lore dump I love these two but I feel they most likely have the attention span of a brick 😅 and if it isn’t immediately gratuitous then they switch off 😂

Bro I've been half cackling half giggling to the "my moral compass leaving my body when the bad guys have cool armor" meme shy posted for like 5 minutes now Great work dude

I'm surprised they didn't talk a bit about basically the forming of a similar to legion of the damned and the temporary resurrection of ferrus

@sexyatheist69

Жыл бұрын

I think they got too bogged down in the negatives to even remember half of what happened.

@halfknight2310

Жыл бұрын

this annoys me. cause we (most of us) all wanted them to talk about this during the legion of the damned episode. I was so excited for this episode, cause i thought they were going to talk about it. but nope.

Tonite on Ridiculous Gear: Shy becomes the Emperor of Mankind and uses her new found power delete DK's Genshin Impact's save files which turns him towards the mighty quivering abs of the ruinous powers, Bricky becomes Malcador the Sigillite as he gets to use his seismic brain for psychic shenanigans meanwhile Kirioth and Tedd_zero become little guys of the Emperor which is worrying as they are under Shy's wrathful gaze

@detharax

Жыл бұрын

Kirioth as a little guy is something I didn't know I needed

@IdioticSynergy

Жыл бұрын

@@detharax lol just a smol man

@valantisalatsas7249

Жыл бұрын

you've outdone yourself once again

@IdioticSynergy

Жыл бұрын

@@valantisalatsas7249 Thank you ^^ I'm glad you enjoy these

@markokozic

Жыл бұрын

Kirioth would be a I'M A TANK, I'M A TANK, I'M A TANK kind of a guy

I absolutely vibe with some of the comments here and on reddit which point out how much of a chameleon the Emperor is to other people. Its like he reacts to the people or such around him to be whatever they need to see or hear. Land seemed very cold and arrogant so he didn't just ACT more cold and arrogant but he BECAME more cold and arrogant. To me this lends more credence to him being an early stage god since the gods of the warp are the way they are in part because they are the thoughts and emotions of mortal races. For instance, Nurgle is the way he is because this is how mortals have perceived him, the concept of despair and pestilences in general since the dawn of time. However, around people like Vulkan, the goodest of boys, he becomes more of a good guy himself. TLDR: I think the emps isn't just saying what people need to hear but rather is becoming more like they are themselves

At this point I feel like the major "moral" you can get out of 40K is that you simply SHOULD NOT putt your faith and loyalty in a single individual no matter how powerfull or inteligent they are/claim to be , especially if they insist that only they and they alone are capable of helping you. Because if you do, you will simply get dragged down with them. With Horus, Big E and the Silent King being the most prominent examples of this

@alaskarii007

Жыл бұрын

Yep, but people want to have their cake and eat it. "Oh this universe is grimdark and there are no good guys!" But "the imperium of man has done no wrong and the emperor is a Saint who did nothing wrong :)"

@Reddotzebra

Жыл бұрын

@@alaskarii007 "Oh this universe is grimdark and there are no good guys!" Ciaphas Cain. He's a good guy and the irony is that he probably will never understand it.

I just hear Tom Hardy's venom as the sword complaining to Abaddon he is hungry lol

AdRic is a part of the reason I got into the tabletop, I like to listen to the podcast while I paint. Dominion Zephon was the very first model I painted for Warhammer, so it was a nice surprise to see him in Master of Mankind. I run him in the 40K tabletop as a Captain with a Jump Pack, and I have lost track of how many warlords he has absolutely erased.

My first ever Warhammer book was Master of Mankind.... Lest to say, I remembered the interactions between Zephon, Arkan, and the Custodes, and the thing with the 1000 daily psychers. And when I reread it, after 5 years of injecting lore, I understood more.

Games Workshop took a lot of inspiration from many famous sci-fi series including Frank Herberts Dune series. In that series, the "god-emperor" was a very powerful man who, for the sake of humanity, became a tyrant and forced humanity into servitude for 3000+ years. His self-described purpose was to play the "villian" and thus when he would die, humanity would have an ingrained hatred of centralized authority and dictatorship and spread among the stars never to be corralled and subjugated as a whole ever again. Is this what the emperor of mankind is doing? Beats me, but that's the inspiration that games workshop based the emperor on.

@sageemerald7685

Жыл бұрын

Not only that but the God Emperor in Dune can see the future and sees that future-sight is bad for people because it creates determinism so as part of this plan is also to erase determinism and destiny. This is the part I think GW always misinterpreted the most with Big E's visions, Kurze, etc.

@gama343

Жыл бұрын

@@sageemerald7685 I think GW actually does the future sight thing very well. There's a whole bunch of different plot points that share in the God Emperor in Dune's idea that future sight is bad, and 40k makes a point to show when characters are being deterministic fools, like Kurze, or using doing it right by looking into multiple possible futures.

Honestly the Emperor's ambitions and reasoning are made pretty clear in this book and I find it hard to disagree with him considering the alternative is death of the species, hard to side with the literal forces of hell, you compare him to the eldar gods and C'tan which the eldar pantheon were purposely hands off unlike the emperor and we see how that turned out and the C'tan weren't even necrontyr and used the necrons.

Wow I couldn’t disagree with you all more. I don’t do the audiobook thing, I actually read books and I found MoM an absolute page turner. The description of Sisters of Silence was amazing and the Custodians were portrayed exactly how I imagine they would be. Arkhan Land is a fantastic character and the description of robot monkey was hilarious. I loved the imprisoned Baroness. I thought she was a very strong character with a lot of depth. There wasn’t much about the book that I didn’t like to be honest. Great action sequences and fantastic lore building.

@Big_Bread_Fan

7 ай бұрын

I completely agree, I don't know what they were talking about because every single part was amazing and memorable, and so well written. It just seemed like they didn't have good attention skills and don't appreciate good writing

@henrikandreason7261

5 ай бұрын

I agree too. One of the best books in the series.

DK, if you want more Land and Zephon "palling around," they're frequently through the whole Siege of Terra series. Not that I'd expect you to go start plowing through them, but they're featured frequently through a lot of the books, to the point of being main PoV's quite often.

@consolescrub4031

Жыл бұрын

He's also got his moments with Rann in the later books which I thought was cool considering relations between different legions are cool and they are just action movie style heroes at times.

Siege of Terra Echoes of Eternity gives you some more details on why Zephon was called Bringer of Sorrows it has to do with his specific role in the legion before his back alley bash which sends him to Terra.

Id really like to see them read the watchers of the throne. It gives a very interesting look at the politics of the high lords after cadias fall and exactly how bad things got on the ground on terra. Also the silent sisterhood and their relationship with the custodes gets really fleshed out with some light on what the sisters where up to untill the golden bois got the ok to leave the house (the relationship between valerian and aleya is also weirdly sweet)

@jackrasmussen5345

Жыл бұрын

Seconded, on all points.

Damn if Bricky really loved Xephon, he shows up quite a bit in the siege of terra series. Arkan Land also shows up there with his own sentient space monkey Also PS SPOILER WARNING FOR THE SIEGE OF TERRA SERIES: at 16:16 where they talk about emps not giving a shit about his Primarchs; they has been entierely rewritten in recent books because even GW realizes how mu h that ruins the drama of the heresy. Specifically it was rewritten in The Death and the End (and a bit in the valdor book iirc) where malcador reflects om how the Emperor very much cared for them as a father. This isent meant as a "Well Ashcully" but a comment n how this bit of controversial lore has been changed as time as went on PS 2: Electric Boogaloo: for those that cant or just dont wanna spend the money to reas the Siege of Terra series, ill explain why Xephon is known as the Bringer of Sorrow. Xephon is known as the Bringer of Sorrow because, iirc from that series, he is one of the Blood Angels Destroyers. He isent a destroyer in the "burn you in phosphex and Rad" type of way, but in the "your going to die, and its going to hurt the whole time" type of way. He was known for using unpowered power weapons specifically so that the edge would hurt more and that his opponents would spend more time near death. He is genuinely a terrifying MF and you get to see some of that in that series.

@korstmahler

Жыл бұрын

People kind of missed that Master of Mankind is about how different viewers see Big E. Arkhan Land, as Mechanicum and a fanboy to boot - He expected a cold, logical, unfeeling Omnissiah, clad in simple coat as a scientist. Which is exactly what the Emperor showed to him.

@emanuelursan8047

Жыл бұрын

Big E never speaks with his mouth open in Master of Mankind. Land, Ra and the other custodes only hear him in their mind... so they hear ONLY what they want or believe to be true (i.e. the primarchs are mistakes). I disagree entirely with the gang opinion on the book, it's not about the action itself or the setup for the war in the webway... its about how Big E is seen by others and about his plan which even he doesn't really seam to entirely get... this kinda gives strenght to the theory that emps plan in 30k is just what future big E (who is a god) is telling his past self cause of warp fuckery (Slaanesh is birthed at the fall of the eldary in m25 but she/he/it existed since long before that for instance)

@jasonburke1671

Жыл бұрын

@@korstmahler and thats very much what we hear from Ollanious and from Malcador later; that the Emperor is an actor who puts on the mask people respond best too. He would have been just as happy in a mud hut in a farm as much as the palace, but he knows that when people come to meet "The Emperor of Mankind" they are expecting a certain show to be performed.

I really enjoyed the part, where Emps was talking about the nature of his foresight abilities, the shore allegory is very interesting to me. It gave me a good "aah" moment cause i was wondering how that worked. Big BIG recommendation is a book you were about to read already, Huron BlackHeart Master of The Maelstrum, IK Ik a marine book, but it was so so good the back and forth between everyone and the powerstruggles of csm are so good.

One thing I really like about how this book portrays what the emperor thinks of the primarchs is that when he says he doesn’t see them as his sons, he is talking to Land, who says the mechanicum see the emperor as an emotionless being. So it does give us some insight on the emperor as a person (who is very much flawed) it still leaves some of it up to interpretation.

I don't like it when ADB writes anything to do with the emperor. I'd prefer he just stick to chaos and xenos stuff. But there was an interpretation of the emperor where he cared deeply for his sons when they were in the tubes. They got whisked away, and he tempered his expectations and hardened himself to prepare for what had become of them. The first few were okay, and then there were all the problems. Even the burning of monarchia is a form of kindness so he wouldn't have to wipe out another one of his sons and legions. It's sad. And much more gratifying as a reader to see than "oh you mean test tube 17? Yeah, I never cared for any of those creatures"

@mapleflag6518

Жыл бұрын

Also his treatment of Angron doesn’t even make sense.

17:01 Brick: “I’m full team chaos” There are another options, sir. Space elves and/or traitor Tau/ grumpy, sassy old man robots

I haven't read/listened Master of Mankind, but I have listened to Krieg, and I will say with pure confidence that I am a lore over plot person. I don't care about the pacing, give me more lore and I will be happy. The only time I care about plot is how it relates to the characters I care about. So I think I'll get this book for the same reason I have almost all of the Siege of Terra books: how did ______ happened.

There is a theory that Master of Mankind was a compilation of short stories stitched together to make a whole book.

Remember, folks, don't steal water from the Emperor, or else your kid will turn into custody.

@sirgaz8699

Жыл бұрын

That seems like a pretty sweat deal. Become a demigod AND a refreshing drink!

The Emperor in this book was the mindset of go out for a pack of cigarettes and never come back but instead it was mentally not physically

If you haven't read it yet, Farsight: Crisis of Faith or its sequel. Highly recommend, it gives a VERY good view of Tau society

@LeftClick

Жыл бұрын

Seconded.

The theory this book puts forth about the Emperor just being a living weapon from The Dark Age of Technology "left out of its box" it's my absolute favorite explanation for the Emperor.

@calvinheslop2585

Жыл бұрын

don't they mention that big E was kicking around during the time of christ though?

@TarnaxTheBarbarian

Жыл бұрын

@@calvinheslop2585 There are many different theories with none being confirmed. Details about the Emperor are intentionally left to be vague and inconclusive, or even contradictory.

@calvinheslop2585

Жыл бұрын

@@TarnaxTheBarbarian in the last church big E says to the priest that he witnessed the man who was killed for daring to suggest that mankind had to come together as one for their own benefit.

@TarnaxTheBarbarian

Жыл бұрын

@@calvinheslop2585 Like I said, the lore is intentionally contradictory at times.

@gama343

Жыл бұрын

It's also the least likely. One character, one time says that they would like for it to be the case, rather than Emps just being that much of a super powerful tyrant, versus all the many times the Emperor has done things before space flight was invented. Then again, time travel is a thing in 40k, so it's not entirely impossible, but the preponderance of evidence suggests otherwise. Personally, I like the classic shaman soul gestalt, but even the idea that Big E is one of the last remaining Old Ones simply masquerading as human is more likely than him being some kind of Dark Age experiment.

My personal problem with Big E’s portrayal is “his 21D chess, all according to plan.” Gimmick leaves so much room for Ass pulls. If Big E was a well intentioned but flawed idealist the event of 40K is a tragedy, with his current portrayal 40K is still “going according to plan” and all of Big E’s horrific actions are justified because it’s still working towards the “greater good” of defeating Chaos. If 40K has a version of the End Times you know Big E is going to pull something out of his ass to fix anything because he’s a dues ex machina, there’s no reason to get invested because the Emperor is reading ahead in the script, and has a walkthrough open for how to unlock the secret Imperium victory ending.

@darthchungus9964

Жыл бұрын

Bro reminds me of aizen even being bound to a chair

@ryojimata3708

Жыл бұрын

Its probably gonna go the way of warhammer fantasy.....

@InquisitorThomas

Жыл бұрын

@@ryojimata3708 I doubt it, 40K is GW’s golden goose, some individual 40K armies had better sales than all of Fantasy in the end.

@ryojimata3708

Жыл бұрын

@@InquisitorThomas True, but i still don't trust GW.

@MrSamulai

Жыл бұрын

That was why I liked this book, namely the ending. With one sentence, all the emperor's masterplan theories were put to bed and the setting became that much better. "I don't know."

One of my biggest issues as a custodes fan is the portrayal of custodian characters. This is one of the rare and pretty much the first time we get to be the stars of a book, and literally everyone else in the novel is more compelling or likeable than us. Ra is fine but generic and Diocletian is a giant pompous asshole. I have no problem with having characters like Diocletian, if anything it makes the individual nature of custodes more apparent and cooler by using him as a foil to other stodes, but fuck me, it’s the book about what the custodes did in the heresy and we feel like afterthoughts. I’m immensely grateful we would get the watchers of the throne novels after this so that we can have at least one likeable named and canon character in the form of Valerian, because this book cemented custodes haters opinions that we’re lifeless, emotionless, pompous golden boys, and really just feels bad in any moment custodes aren’t in a fight scene.

@ethanflores6252

Жыл бұрын

The Custodians come off as pompous assholes because in their eyes everyone sucks because they won’t give 100% to the Emperor. They PHYSICALLY can’t comprehend not being 110% loyal to their lord, so with half the Astartes and Primarchs turning they really hate them.

@seeingseeer5282

Жыл бұрын

Counterpoint: The reason why Diocletan behaves like that is because of the situation at hand, with Magnus having destroyed the Webway and thus the Emperor's dream. Which means that his personality pre-Heresy might have been different. Might be.

Ra mother was the one who is killed for stealing the last of Terra oceans, is the one who say to a Custodian that the Emperor is not human. That he's probably a weapon left out its cage from the Dark Age.

Seems to be missed a lot that whoever is talking to the emperor seems to see and interact with their ideal version of said emp. Land sees the ideal dispassionate scientist, Ra their wise imperious leader, the start of the book literally has the emperor saying magnus' name. The later SoT books (fury of magnus, the end and the death) show how malcadors views emps, as well as gives a bit more insight into the emps view of "after the crusade with the primarchs" with the whole village by the river. Honestly it all makes the emperor seem a bit more flawed but makes him a more complex character without taking away from anything previously

*How Abaddon acquired Drach'nyen from Ra, after Ra killed Abbys warband* Abaddon: "You murdered my warriors!" Ra: A: "Oh well, you win some you lose some" Ra: "Children?" A: "Yeah" R: "Okay... kind of thought you'd be more pissed." A: "Oh, blindingly so. Mind if I see your sword?" R: "What? Why?!" A: "I just wish to hold it." R: "No!" A: "Come on, be neighborly." R: "I'm not your neighbor. Also I think I hate you." A: "Look, after what you did I can fit what's left of my warband in a meat pie. Now let me see your stupid sword!" R: "Fine. Here."

@garanathgrimwrath293

Жыл бұрын

That fact I know what you referenced is gold my guy

You must do a Movie nights / Watch along streams and make DK watch the 40K TTS Episodes. They really got the Emperor right.

So Ra probably let Abadon take the sword, since, ironically, its probably safest that way. Since Abadon is the one person who would never free Darknean, who is less dangerous but more useful to Abadon as a sword

Koja zu didn't steal water she stole the whole ocean. She sold the last ocean of terra to some off world people.

16:23- That is definitely a bad example! The dude that made Pinocchio may not be his dad but he is not anywhere near the same as the Emperor! He actually cares about Pinocchio’s safety and wellbeing up-to and probably including loving him like a son! It has been a very long time since I’ve watched that movie with my daughter. And even longer since I’ve watched and actually payed attention to it but I’m pretty sure he even says at the least one point that he loves Pinocchio!!! Does that sound like the Emperor to you?!? It doesn’t sound like it to me lmao

If this book happens before Angron's ascension on Betrayer than this would be the first we hear of Angron's brain.

The Emperor is basically a very specific kind of leader, the one vacillating between the micromanaging boss from hell and the "Sure, you just go do whatever, I'm sure it will all work out in the end" type of lazy manager. The only times he manages to get shit done well is when he's the one with his metaphysical hands around the problem's throat, because he basically never tells anyone what they need to know. It is what happens when you have spent a large chunk of your millennia long life hoarding ALL the knowledge. He sees everyone but himself as his tools, and if he's not just lying through his ass, his loyalty is to the concept and ideal of mankind instead of the actual people. He's basically the most coldhearted tyrant that has ever lived, with enough psychic might and charisma to make you love him despite knowing this fact.

The thing about Master of Mankind is that it was written by ADB, who is known for being a massive chaos fan and shitting all over the Imperium. He even wrote a scene where a group of three Custodes were slaughtered by eleven Gal Vorbak. Even as powerful as the first Gal Vorbak were, and even though the Custodes had just crash landed, it would have been a fight. GW took the guy who wrote that scene, and had him write about Big E. Don't get me wrong, I like ADB because he can actually write good chaos characters, which is pretty difficult considering what chaos actually is. And I like the idea he put out about Big E in this book. I just don't think he did a good job at doing it because his own biases effect how he writes. Which in and of itself kind of fits the 40k line of 'everything is canon, but not necessarily true', but you still can't have him writing books about the Imperium that are as important as Master of Mankind should have been. You're supposed to have writers writing stories that fit them, not say 'you're great at writing A, so go write about B'. Edit: To clarify, he can do an excellent job writing about the Imperium. Helsreach for example is, imo, not just one of the best Imperium books, but one of the best 40k books. But when it comes to writing about the Imperium when chaos is around, or about Big E specifically, it just doesn't end well.

@mrschneider9891

Жыл бұрын

*apparently hates the imperium Proceeds to write the most prolific black templar book

This book also makes me appreciate Guiliman more in 40k, since he straight up realizes the Emperor never cared about him and even is Emps is a god now he's not one worthy of worship. He outright tells a priest. "The emperor is not my father. He is my creator, but Konor Guiliman was more of a father to me than that thing" Like Guiliman isn't really following the Emperor anymore, he is just trying to save humanity.

@Fourtytwo4242

Жыл бұрын

That always kinda been Guilliman's thing, he always regretted doing what he had to do, killing countless races, killing innocents, but here a honest question, if he didn't do it, do you really think the emperor wouldn't kill him and his people? Because you can ask Logar what emps will do if you fall out of line, or the "lost" primarchs, in theory if Chaos was not involved, Horus would 100% be in the right to kill the emperor. Edit: also make it more fucking awful, emps does love his sons, but he so much of a bastard he willing to legit let people he loves suffer fates worse then death, all for his planes. Emps is a monster, that always been his point, he just a monster who thinks the ends justifies the means.

@gokbay3057

Жыл бұрын

Big G does have a line about "The Emperor was a brilliant scientist, a powerful warrior, and a great psyker, but he was a terrible father."

The Empror's face when the tools keep talking to him

The funny part is, the more you learn about the emperor, the more you dislike him. _Just like the citizens of the Imperium_

@jellydamgood

9 ай бұрын

Huh, it's actually the opposite for me 🤔

@SN00PICUS

7 ай бұрын

HERESY

@connorsmith1005

4 ай бұрын

Couldn't disagree more. The more I learn about The Emperor, the more I hurt for him, the more I see a man who's life's work fell to ruin, the more I see a man with nothing left but pain.

Peep this, Vashtorr runs the Soul Forge... Drach'nyen is the sole reason for murder and various death coupled with betrayal... he empowers the Chaos Gods in NUMEROUS WAYS, REASONS, AND RATIONALES... All Drach'nyen's work has empowered all 4... The Emp can't destroy him and the Emp is Anathema to the big 4.... Drach'nyen is also much older than Vashtorr(possibly a close age to each other, some say Vash started in the Age of Apostacy, but possibly when man started forging weapons to kill, so Drach is his big brother)... Sooooo... how does Vashtorr end up vying for 5th Chaos God, and Drach'nyen is just used to feeling Abbadon's stinky, sweaty, hands gripping him and squeezing on him whenever he wants... lol...??? Sound like a hell I don't want, I'd rather be forging Chaos engines, than being Abbadon's only chance to beat a Primarch... and it's still up to Abbadon because he would have to actually land the blow... which might not be in Abbadon's pay grade even at its lofty height. Abbadon still can't 1v1 a loyalist Primarch... Drach'nyen is the only way he could.

@ArchArturo

Жыл бұрын

And yet he still acts like a hungry cat, just meowing for treats. Thus... Drach'nyan >:3

@MrSamulai

Жыл бұрын

Why would End of Empires want a kingdom for himself?

Ironically enough, Diocletian Koros is actually one of my favorite custodians

Thank you shy for putting a pic of doctor Manhattan because that's exactly what I had in mind whenever I think of the emperors mindset.

I loved it when the Emperor said it's mastering time, and mastered all over mankind.

I don't think there are feasibly enough custodes to massacre the astartes the same way that they did the thunderwarriors, especially with all the primarchs in play. There was something like 1.5 million astartes active during the great crusade, compared to 10,000 custodes. I think they may have been trained for the eventuality of rebellious astartes, but the custodes would have been overwhelmed and killed to a man if they'd tried to take on all 18 legions.

For guard books, I would recommend 'Steel Tread' by Andy Clark. Good tank movie but as a book, has a really good insight into how the Cadians get new recruits now and how said recruits coexist with the Cadians who suffered through the Fall of Cadia. Generally a fun read with some compelling battles against the Archenemy.

@collecter343

Жыл бұрын

Such a good army book highlighting the different roles present in the Guard and just showing off how "regular" people deal with fighting the forces of hell.

What I enjoy about the conversation about the Book and Big-E in particular is that Emps is judged based on a very subjective view of morality... while completely ignoring that Big-E himself is perveived (and portrays himself) in the visions to Ra and Endymeon as "above morality". In a sense, Big-E doesn't even consider whether his actions are good or bad - he only asks himself if they are what (he things) needs to be done. In the metaphoric explanation of foresight this is especially apparent. He only sees the far shore of the lake - the glorious version of the future Imperium - and he approaches the path towards that shore with the mindset of "the end justifies the means." Big-E essentially says: "Life is too short to waste it on morals."

Tonite on ridiculous gear: The boys have therapy for their daddy issues, Custodian Bricky takes a hit from the Big E boof and learns something abot the Egyptiqns apparently, Shy abandons her two brothers of the Cast to pursue her dreams of becoming a government official or some shit and DK gets posessed by the first murder after trying to get that demussy

@IdioticSynergy

Жыл бұрын

Faris, we meet again lol I have a started a cult of ridiculous gear ^^

"The End of Empires" is a threat to the Emperor BECAUSE he's the Emperor, it's in the name, it's also implied that the first murderer was the Emperor's uncle who killed his father and then the Emperor killed him..... that would make Kian and Able the Emperors family members if that vision could be believed as true.

@zigmus00A

Жыл бұрын

That's probably the closest guess as to what it actually is, and I like that idea personally. A human soul festering in the warp, twisted by Chaos and The Emperor's influence (unintentionally) to become something so powerful it doesn't need to align with *any* of the Chaos Gods.

@Rhysman30

Жыл бұрын

Not a human soul, the act itself. Every terrible act resonates in the warp, the emotional waves coalesce into an entity (because the warp is itself soulstuff, it just needs a catalyst). Drak is powerful because it was the first for the species, and was done with such visceral emotion. The act was even heightened with betrayal which is the strongest feeder of chaos.

"Its a hefty book, 11 or 12 hours" My guys, I love yall, but thats like short to average length. The proper long ones can reach 40 hours easily, and I remember one particular Brandon Sanderson book i "read" as audiobook being closer to 50. Although, 12 hours probably becomes goddamn endless if the book is pure lore and exposition with just one cool part at the end.

Not sure how they feel about continuing a series but for the next book maybe the second ciaphas Cain book, it's guard vs zenos, only about 7 hours and not a marine in sight.

Zephon and Land were my favorites too by a huge margin. They also get some screen time during the siege of Terra in "Echoes of Eternity" too and it makes me smile.

The bigest shock in that book is that the sacrafice of the psykers wasn't add-on, but bulid in feature from the begining....

"The Eldar had their own Emperors." I never thought about comparing Asuryan or Khaine to the Emperor before. In terms of power they might be on a pretty similar level, but Big E was definitely more active in guiding humanity.

When I first saw the thumbnail I thought the voice actor of Saltzpyre would be guest on this episode.

"Be Ready Ra." Ra: *Confused Screaming*

Hey everyone - does anyone know why this podcast isnt upto date on apple podcasts ?

This was my favorite book, so far. There was so much more lore (and important lore) than anything else. Listening through it a second time added a lot more to it; it's a pretty dense and intertwined novel.

@jasonburke1671

Жыл бұрын

You may not wanna hear this, but this book has essentially been disregarded by the xommunity (for the most part) and GW as most of the new books have rewritten large parts of it

@TheDethBringer666

Жыл бұрын

While def not my favorite, its among the more interesting and does great world building. Its only "boring" if you don't care about how the universe functions.

The part of this book I genuinely really liked was The Emperor showing Ra the vision of that one warlord, and stating all the crimes he committed because of religion, and then seventy five hours later the Emperor is ordering the exact same shit to be done. His sheer fucking hypocrisy is staggering.

Really want you guys to do The End and The Death part 1 now

I highly recommend Fifteen Hours, it's an easy read about 8-10 hour long Guard book. It's really good at giving you a boots on the ground and what's it like to live in the imperium.

So when the emperor tells konrad curze no father wants his sons to suffer, apologies and give his forgiveness. Was that the emperors last laugh to hurt him the best way he knew despite the agony to communicate over distance.

@graves8389

Жыл бұрын

Honestly, it probably was more akin to damage control lmao

Dead Men Walking by Steve Lyons would be my suggestion for the future book clubs. I think it’s overall more entertaining than “Krieg” is and the story being told from the perspective of basically a normal dude/civilian works quite well. It makes it stand out and feel interesting and unusual among other 40k books. It also has both Guard and Xenos as Bricky mentioned he wanted to cover c:

"Damn, these castodies are real good at killing, damn they are go-DAMN!"

Damn, idk buddy comedy of golden grumpy 'no I'm not the emperor' bodygaurd and Sassy mute secret-service woman trying to wade through a refugee crisis to scrounge troops to throw at a war that isn't supposed to be happening - was honestly my favorite part. The second act being interesting (deamon & wip/servitor pov like damn) and the third spectacular were just cherries on top.

Since ya'll like Zephon and Arkhan Land so much you should read the Siege of Terra Series

Ass on the Throne, that new intro remix goes HARD. Where's the full soundtrack?

I always thought Zeffon was called Bringer of sorrow because his existance brings sorrow to the blood angels. To see a warrior denied his purpose.

" My name is Ra Endymion and I'm the fastest custodes alive. When I was at the Webway War, the impossible happened to me- "

This book could have been better, but it did introduce some cool concepts. The daemon, Drachn'yenn (spelling?), was a interesting plot device and added some good tension and stakes to the story. The interaction between Land and Xephon was great, too. However, GW made a big mistake having ADB write this book. When bricky and DK say that people don't like it for portraying Big E as bad, they are right. It destroys the fundamentals of who the Emperor is, as opposed to adding to a consistent narrative. It's a good thing they retconned some of it in the SoT books because otherwise it would unravel the whole point of the HH.

You guys should do eisenhorn: xenos for the next book, currently reading them myself

Has anyone figured out what it says at 0:50 ?? There is a mechanical voice speaking at the same time as Bricky.

I dunno , i dont MoM a definite Emperor book. You have all these books where Primarch are represented in the best light possible and then you get a dude who hates the Emperor and loves Chaos writes a book about him? Sure i created Lego buildings to but i never did not feel acomplished or proud of it. The Emperor here is a complete automaton , worse than he is now on his meeting with Guilliman in 40k.

I reckon the reason many remember this book so fondly is because they read the HH series in order, the books in the series just before this were all mid. This book to me was a return to better form for the series so it got an auto couple of stars just because of that. I will admit though, of all the Book Club books this is the first one I skipped re-reading.

Bricky: pay your taxes Me: Nice try Fed

Glad to see the kids having fun with there new soundboard

The passive aura may be a working theory. After all, if he creates 8' tall marines and 9' tall Primarchs, people would expect to see him 27,000 years from now as a 10' tall gleaming figure in splendid armour. It could be that here in 2023 he's just some guy on a computer quietly watching this video and typing out this comment...

There are some Sisters of Battle books. Dunno about their actual quality, but could give you guys a Marine breather and introduce DK to some more sisters stuff.

The one thing I kinda get about people mad over the Emperor's portal has to do with the final moments of the Heresy where its been really old lore that a mortally wounded Big E still hesitated to use all his psychic abilities to destroy Horus and it took the death of Ollanius Pius to convince him Horus was a lost cause (and iirc the main reason why he's stuck on the throne). I'm not sure if this was just old rouge trader lore and is never brought up again in later editions like a certain half eldar space marine, but if not I am not looking forward to The End and the Death: Volume II since they'll either still pull the "he still loves his sons" crap when they've spent years saying otherwise and probably will come off as really dumb and superficial, or it will be kind of a generic fight between Horus and Emps that ends with one dead and one half dead. I've seen a couple theories to how it'll play out ranging from chaos abandoning Horus last minute on purpose since there goal was never to have him be the new master of mankind but to get to current one in his m.41 position of being a half dead corpse that can do almost nothing, to the entire heresy being bait so big E can try to get the chaos gods into one body so he can mind crush them. Regardless the end might be underwhelming at best considering its the climax of almost 20 years and 60+ books.

Do 'Black Legion' series next. Best books since Nightlords. Shows Abby and his crew in a whole new light. 😊

@thefeatherbird_

Жыл бұрын

Id wait for it to be finished first. Still need that final book in the trilogy

@Character_Building89

Жыл бұрын

@Fugl Featherbird whenever that is! Not even has a release date yet.

Imperial Guard novel next? Dead Men Walking by Steve Lyons. Gives another chance to hate on the Death Korp of Krieg which is always hilarious on Ad Ridiculous. 43:43

Can’t forget the newest horussy book where land breaks down sobbing and keeps saying “they killed my monkey”

I’ve been listening to the Siege of Terra books, and Arkan Land becomes even more based as it goes on.

If you guys are still deciding about the book, i would like an eldar book, i don't think you guys did one of those yet. Love the content!

Counter to "Emperor doesn't care for his sons" it's also presented in other books that he simply presents himself and what his says to suit who he is talking to. To be seen in their eyes as the best version of himself. Because he has said to other people who he trusts more than land. That he cares for his sons. It's not much better and his still awful. But not as simple as he doesn't care for them. But he does express his views differently depending on who he is speaking too

@flavortownfanatic7280

Жыл бұрын

After reading "The end and the death: volume 1" I am whole heartedly believe that the Emperor does love his sons. But he his still such a higher level of being that it might not always look the way we would expect it to.

@KonradCurves

Жыл бұрын

@@flavortownfanatic7280 still getting round to reading that. It's on my shelf but I haven't had the time

I personally like the biblical suggestions around the emperor, that he was a direct actor in the events of the time The emperors mentality of being a necessary evil and a tyrant is pulled almost directly from Dune. The god emperor of dune sees the future is horrific via visions, he believes that in order to prevent this horror he must follow his pre destined path and become a brutal tyrant to prevent humanity from destroying itself. In doing so he creates a very similar future ignoring the atrocities he provokes as he sees himself as a saviour, as do his people. There definitely were people who hated the emperor being depicted so coldly and negatively, its fitting then because the writer of dune himself said "kill your messiahs" kill your heroes in the view of the reader before they become transfixed on them being a perfect character to look up to and take the worst examples as correct. Re the custodes killing astartes and being made to do so, the box the grey knights have was found out to be the directions for an astartes kill switch.

My main issue with Master of Mankind is ADB. He HATES the Emperor and has always made that known in his work. He's an excellent writer, but he should never be allowed to write loyalists if it's vs Chaos. I did see something where ADB did say we can just ignore what he's written about Big E because even he recognizes his hate is a bit much.

@meisterhyperion207

Жыл бұрын

But the emperor is a terrible person and a genocidal tyrant

@thefeatherbird_

Жыл бұрын

Not even close. The quote is “You have to know next to nothing of the lore to believe the Emperor was ever a good guy. And you have to ignore almost everything ever published about him.” And hes right. The emperor was always written as a tyrant, he has never been a sympathetic or righteous leader. Theres a reason GW had ADB start the heresy and now write the conclusion of it. He was specifically chosen to write the death of the emperor because he has a firm grasp of who the character is

@cousinzeke4888

Жыл бұрын

Never heard that last bit, actually makes me dislike him less.

@amogus1415

Жыл бұрын

I've always disliked how people put in their own grievances into their work(daddy issues lol)😂😂

@ohamatchhams

Жыл бұрын

​​@@amogus1415 It's not even "daddy issues", It's just very biased projections to their favourite factions that undermined the world-building into throttling inconsistency This on top of the fact that there're 60+ books of Horus Heresy alone, it's better to get into the meat akin to the main characters and their tampering effects into the entire settings progression and development, instead of just fluffs of lore equivalent of slops, padding and filler greases