I appreciate you consistently posting on this topic. Thank you for being you.

I think if anyone sees a kid bullying another and thinks it's "affectionate bullying" or whatever, they should tell them that's not an acceptable way to show it. That's not too hard for teachers etc. adults in kids lives, but I guess some "gender roles" die hard and "boys will be boys". That's still an often-stranger annoying or even physically hurting that kid, it's weird behavior to sort of train little kids, usually the girls to put up with that and even (gags) "be grateful" of it. Hell, I was 18 or something and during class had a stranger guy stare at me and then repeatedly expectantly tell me my hair looked great. Guess what the substitute teacher, an old woman, said? She told me I was "being unfriendly to him" judgementally bc I did my best to ignore him (as an assigned female person). Insane! Not to even mention I'm ace, so anyone flirting with me in person makes me extra uncomfortable bc let's be honest, it's usually sexual in some level

@swankivy

2 ай бұрын

Ugh, the third parties admonishing you to accept unwanted attention or you're "unfriendly" is the worst. I used to get that from my mom. Some dude hit on me in a grocery store and I complained about it, and she told me how rude it was for me to be so unkind and that maybe I should actually call him (he had given me his number) and "let him down easy" or at least give him a chance to meet me or whatever--because after all it's SO HARD for men to get up the courage to talk to us so we should reward them for their bravery. Yeah, sounds like I'm supposed to navigate my entire life around what dudes impose on me. Thankfully as I've gotten older I'm happy to be told "well that's so unfriendly!" and response "OK, I'm unfriendly. So what else is up?"

If boys bullying you meant they liked you, then my whole class "liked" me back in primary school, because I was bullied relentlessly by boys. (it was the autism)

I hope you dropped that "friend". My nephew, when he was little, was in kiddie soccer and when a girl went by him kicking a soccer ball he kicked it out of her path. My parents, shamefully even I thought it was cute that he had a crush on her. At work we were discussing whether a male coworker would be able to get home so, I suggested he could crash at my apartment and he got awkward. I was only after I told my mom that she explained he was afraid I wanted to screw him. I just wanted to be helpful.

@swankivy

2 ай бұрын

Yeah, I don't really like to keep people in my life who reinterpret my behavior in ways I don't intend it or repeatedly characterize my interactions with others as obviously sexual, so that is one of the reasons I haven't kept that person in my life. I wonder how much of the "dude will harass girl he likes" nonsense comes from the cultural message that men and boys can't have emotions or they're "girly," but they ARE allowed aggression, so displaying aggression toward a girl they like is the only acceptable way they can think of to show they like them? (I don't think a lot of it is intensely thought through; it's just something they can do to get attention. And yet, what do you DO if you like the girl and you've harassed her for attention and then that attention is NEGATIVE? Just goes to show girls and women have to be similarly socialized to interpret bullying and harassment as love for it to work.) And yeah, I have DECADES of experience with people deciding I'm offering to screw a man if I ever do anything nice for him (especially if it involves us being alone together). For many people there is simply no non-sexual explanation for a woman wanting to do anything with a man.

Been lurking for a few years, cool shirt.

@swankivy

Ай бұрын

Thanks. I have 3 Owl House shirts!

Bullying, harassment, never okay, and "he likes you" - true or not (typically not) is never an excuse. Even if/when true, that's a totally f*cked up maladaptive way of showing it, and that's totally the responsibility/fault of the bully/harasser, it's not some shortfall or "misinterpretation" or the like by the bullied/harassed. And ace men, etc. and even not ... some woman throws herself at the guy, or does or tries to drop lots of "hints" and signals, etc., if she doesn't get response in kind - and yeah - of course not all women - but certainly some - will then very much jump to the conclusion and believe/say/etc. "Oh, he must be gay.", or "Oh, there must be something wrong with him", etc. - apparently working on the presumption that if they throw themselves at (most) any man, he'll be attracted and respond in kind, and if he doesn't, there must be something "wrong" with him or the like. And yeah, even as a relatively ordinary straight guy, even I also experience that. E.g. if, for whatever reason(s) I'm just not interested in her or attracted to her or whatever, and she's throwing herself at me, and, I don't respond like she'd expect and hope, at least for some women, they'll then jump to "must be something wrong with him, must be gay, or something like that." Anyway, bulling, harassment, unwanted attention, etc., never okay. Sometimes outright not at all okay, other cases, person says "no" or the like and the other persists, likewise not okay - period. But alas, some won't respect those boundaries - and it'll be bulling, or harassment, or generally being a jerk, or whatever. Means they "like" you? Really not even relevant - they're being a jerk and it's totally inappropriate - or worse. And even if they "like" the person, they sure as heck don't actually care, because they're being grossly inappropriate in their actions. If someone has (what they see as) their small pet, and all they do is abuse it, does that mean they "like" their pet? Is that even a (particularly) relevant question? It's abuse, etc., and ought stop - shouldn't even start ... period.

That whole, “They do it because you let them” thing is a bunch of bs. There’s this myth that somebody who’s being bullied will just be able to put the bully in his place ala Ralphie and Scott Farkas in A Christmas Story and the main character and the jerk set of brothers in that effin’ song the Coward of the County. It isn’t automatic that you’ll be able to do something like that. And you shouldn’t have to. My mother used to say the same thing to me and when I’d tell her that I tried to fight back, she’d tell me to get better at it. I can’t think of any bigger waste of my time on the planet than learning how to fight back. (If others want to, knock themselves out, but it isn’t for me.)

@swankivy

2 ай бұрын

Glad someone else recognizes that toxic piece of advice so many of us seem to get! I frequently felt (especially with my mother) that I was straight up being blamed for the harassment I received. I didn't EVER feel like she (or some other adults) acknowledged that bullies were being jerks or that their behavior should be addressed; it was more a mixture of "well, that's LIFE kiddo, and it's YOUR responsibility to HANDLE IT or else you deserve what you get" and "You're being bullied because you're so damn bullyable. If you'd stop being weird or [insert whatever bullyable behavior she thought was responsible for me getting picked on], nobody would bully you." It was ALWAYS put on me as if I was the cause of my own bullying rather than the cause being a bully choosing to bully. And especially when you're a kid, telling an authority IS dealing with it. If you are going to a place you're forced to go (such as school) and you have no control over what class you're in or where you have to sit, adults in charge of this have a responsibility to protect the children in their care. If I'm expected to develop some kind of grand scale comeuppance for a bully that crosses me, I'm sad to say that even if that sort of thing worked or I'd had the resources to do so, that doesn't often stop bullies. They just get worse; they don't actually respect measures taken to trump them.

I have had very abusive "friends" looking back at it and i know many were interested like that. The more abusive the more likely they liked me. I'm a man and most interested were women. I think the idea that they push you or they steal your lunch means they like you is the same basic idea. I think any interest from allos is taken as romantic/sexual. Little kid has a friend of the "opposite" sex then they must be their girlfriend/boyfriend. The same with "men and women can't be friends", its suggesting sex is the only reason for interacting. Allos really do seem to think the only reason to talk to someone is intimacy. And as people generalise to their own experience (meaning they think others think like them), they must themselves only see value in someone if sex is involved unless they are a gender they are just not attracted too. Brings up questions for how bisexual and pan people are viewed for sure. I'm so tired of all this, abuse being a sign of liking someone is nuts, its a terrible way to signal such a thing. It really needs to change cos it seems like its just the start of a life of this abusive behaviour. "I bully cos i like you" has hurt me in my late 30s, when does it end? I think things need to change. Maybe i'm just too ace to get it though. Maybe the abuse is a result of being frustrated by "just friendship", none of the allo men i know have really had this from women. If they abuse its usually in or after relationship. I dunno. Good video though, it got me thinking.

@swankivy

2 ай бұрын

Good discussion! Yeah it's gross that some people think there's no reason to interact with another person if it isn't about sex. I've even had some people (mostly dudes) insist that having friendships is silly. Like, hey it doesn't surprise me that much that they don't have any actual friends if they think like that. But the idea that it's baffling for anyone to talk to another person unless they want sex is, in turn, baffling to me. And yeah, there's a lot of inappropriate aggression in these relationships. I just don't find it that difficult to frigging be nice to people. Maybe that's why I have plenty of friends I treasure and who treasure me in return: because I'm actually offering something rare. It doesn't seem like it should be, but it is.

@cushmanarmitige2369

2 ай бұрын

@@swankivy I very much agree, i think if you can't be friends you really don't have anything much there. I had people i was friends with that are still married now after many years, the guy said i don't have any friends that are women they're just wifes friends. I had been around them all for years and considered them all friends. Some allos really do only see sex as meaningful. As a man who is ace i look back at how shameful i found being ace and seeing the way people behave about it i am stunned i ever admitted it to myself. And being nice never helped me, a nice man with no interest in sex round where i live isn't greatly respected to put it mildly. I still have to hide that i'm ace quite often. Point is that even the most aggressive is usually treated much better than someone who is kind and not interested in sex in my experience. Oddly its the women who are the most overtly mean about it. Like i was happy in the friend zone, please just let me stay in the zone i like.

@swankivy

2 ай бұрын

@@cushmanarmitige2369 Well, regarding niceness and how it "never helped you" to be nice, I should clarify that "nice" is in the eye of the beholder, and what I mean by it is "exhibits behavior that makes the other person feel valued" or similar. Which may actually not be your idea of nice in the cases where you were NOT appreciated or valued. My earlier years are definitely full of being nice to people and being rewarded with scorn, mockery, harassment, and abandonment for my trouble. Eventually I dealt with this by forming relationships with people who valued what I valued in friendships, and not letting myself be so beholden to the idea that I could be friends with anyone I wanted to. Since the choices are either "change how you behave to make people want to be your friend" or "find people who want to be your friend because you behave a certain way," I went for the latter. There are definitely people whose version of nice I could never be (as we discussed with allos seeming to think positive interaction is indivisible from sexual attention and feel confused or angry if your niceness is coupled with "withholding" sex they think they deserve).

@cushmanarmitige2369

Ай бұрын

@@swankivy By nice i really just mean a caring friend. I admit i'm too much of a people pleaser with friends in the past. It was only once i started saying no when i was trying to stop being overly agreeable that i found that i was around people who kinda wanted to use me (quite a few of them anyway). I found i had surrounded with people who cared more about what i was useful for than for myself. Its good in a way, i now have the chance to find better people now that i am becoming more assertive and saying no to things i don't want to do. Its actually that thought process that got me to admit to myself i'm ace. Like its ok not to want that stuff and say no. Basically i'm doing what you did, maybe a bit later than i would have liked but i'm being myself and seeing who will accept that rather than changing for anyone. Is a lot more lonely though as the less i hide the more i realise who my friends are. I went from dozens to a few real quick. I think that losing friend coming out as ace is something rarely talked about but there are a lot more people who would drop an ace man particularly than people realise. And yes i realise my friends were not good but though thats partly on me and the life i have lived i think maybe its something quite common. Thanks for the videos (and the book) anyway, these things really do help people like us. Particularly when a lot of the people round us don't.