My cycling has resulted in me shoulder checking when I'm a pedestrian. It definitely changes your perspective to danger that driving doesn't.

@mechan2535

3 ай бұрын

no offence you should be shoulder checking as a pedestrian anyway shouldn't take you to be a cyclist to start to do it. everytime im walking i always check over shoulder for cars, cyclist , runners other people in general.

@MegaMidds

3 ай бұрын

I even shoulder check inside the Supermarket 😂

@JohnM...

3 ай бұрын

Sounds like you’re too young to remember the Green Cross Code with Darth Vader…

@maskofsan1ty

3 ай бұрын

@JohnM... no but nobody is shoulder checking in Tesco after they've watched that...

@EightPawsProductionsHD

3 ай бұрын

Calm down, calm down!@@mechan2535

As a Walker, cyclist and car driver. I think we all should try harder to help others.

@rufusgreenleaf2466

3 ай бұрын

You are right, i've done all 3 and know for a fact we can all be as bad as each other.

My observation improved immensely after I learned how to ride a motorbike. Everyone would benefit from trying other modes of transport.

@laceandwhisky

3 ай бұрын

Always said part of getting your licence is riding a pushbikes ( not as a kid either) ride or pillion a motorbike, drive a car, observe and talk to a bus driver, sit with an HGV driver. Sit as a passenger with a traffic copper. Maybe then people might have a better scope of all driving issues

@PedroConejo1939

3 ай бұрын

Donkey's years ago, when drivers had often translated from riding a motorbike to driving a car, we used to say that as a biker, you could always tell those drivers who had and those who hadn't ever ridden a motorbike - or bicycle, for that matter. It's far less noticeable these days because so few people start off on two wheels.

@moonshinepz

3 ай бұрын

definitely agree with this. Im a biker nd my mate ran a motorcycle training school, it was something you'd hear in there (from car drivers who got their bike ticket) almost daily.

@hoog111

3 ай бұрын

Ray wins. He’s met Ashley Neal lol

@chrisfs150

3 ай бұрын

I have 3 kids my eldest has only ever driven a car but my twins boys have started out on 50cc scooters now they're nearing 17 ( and will be moving up to 125cc's) i can confidently say that their road awareness and ability is already much much better than the older car only sibling...

Ashley has brought this man on to castigate because he dared question his skills 🤣 It's all about 'learning' aka preseving ones ego 😅

@RobertAdams-ly5ku

3 ай бұрын

Spot on

@Tillyard86

3 ай бұрын

In a private e-mail?! He said his observations might not be as good, and he didn't say it publically. Also, if you read the e-mail, the viewer suggests they meet. If you skip to about 20 minutes he explains why the e-mail puzzled him.

@mcgoverg1

3 ай бұрын

Yeah, don’t understand why he said he thought email writer might have been “triggered” about something, also he says he’s gonna “play nice”. Not sure why he sees the meeting as confrontational.

@Tillyard86

3 ай бұрын

@@mcgoverg1 they talk at one point about how its hard to portray your true self and your real feelings in things like e-mails and social media posts.

Tried to listen to this but at multiple points you talk over Ray which is frustrating because you've brought him on so he can give his views.

@EightPawsProductionsHD

3 ай бұрын

On the flip side, Ray did not (or could not) answer some questions put to him, even when asked multiple times.

@Tillyard86

3 ай бұрын

He was perfectly fair to him about everything he had to say, I don’t see any issues with the way he talked to him.

@Kenjh71

3 ай бұрын

Ray was not very good at presenting his points and Ashley had a fair portion of confirmation bias, so it was a rather fruitless conversation.

Pausing just after 4 minutes. First thought from the intro: oh dear, a competition! Second thought, it's entirely possible that each of these highly-experienced road users will pick up a few things the other does not, and there will be other things they weight differently. Anyway, respect to both for what seems to be genuine curiosity above all.

Oh wow this is a very pleasant surprise Ash. Another one of your Driving with My Viewers series. I see it's 1 hr 17 mins long. This is going to be a real treat to watch a little later...and a nice Welcome Home for me. Have to get the front and back lawns mowed first. A lush lawn and an extended video from Ash. The green green grass of home!

One thing I was missing from the discussion about being more aware of surroundings on a bike: it is not just about being afraid because compared to a car you feel more exposed. Personally I feel like it takes way less concentration and thinking on a bike simply because I am not in a box with windows, my windows are 100% transparent and 360° around me horizontally and vertically. Without thinking I know where the sun is shining from so who will be partly blinded by it when. Or where the blast of wind will come from after the last building. The sound of my tires on a wet road is constantly updating me on how wet it is and a touch of brakes or feel of the bike when turning makes me feel how much adhesion is there. I can hear things like ambulances from much greater distance. I never have things "behind the A-pillar" or anything similar. I am not sure I could say my observations are better on a bike than in a car but it feels like the bike makes it easier to reach the required level. All that said one potential downside for many cyclists is the rear hemisphere because they have no mirrors. So when some loud noise masks noises from behind and something in front takes attention they tend to miss some rearward awareness. Personally I always have at least a mirror on my glasses and on my main bike (a recumbent) I also have one on the handlebars that is closer to my forward line of sight than my mirrors are in my car. This makes the all-aroud awareness simple, instinctive and constant. I am always surprised how many avid cyclists somehow go on without this. We are all different I guess.

@horrortackleharry

3 ай бұрын

I've not really thought about it before, but it's actually pretty wild that cyclists aren't required to have some kind of rear-view mirror on the road. I don't ride, but do a lot of country walking that occasionally requires short sections on roads with moderate traffic. I am CONSTANTLY 'checking my 6' in these situations, in a way that just wouldn't be possible on a swift-moving bike.

@ianmason.

3 ай бұрын

For 25 of the last 27 years I've driven a soft topped/open topped car, and it does make a significant improvement to your situational awareness simply because you can hear more and hear where it's coming from. I swapped to a conventional saloon car two years back and immediately noticed the difference - now I have to figure out where a siren is coming from, before I just _knew_ .

@richardworley7798

3 ай бұрын

The Garmin Varia is great for giving you that rear view, it has a radar that alerts you to rear approaching traffic.

@hebijirik

3 ай бұрын

@@richardworley7798 I know it. But just my commuting is about 10 hours a week. My bike lights are hub dynamo driven and the only thing to recharge is the helmet lights about once a week. If mirrors did not exist I would learn to live with recharging the radar too. But they exist and work way better.

@hebijirik

3 ай бұрын

@@horrortackleharry I think that what requirements are placed on you should be proportional to the risk of you doing harm to others by your mistakes. I don't think requiring mirrors on all cyclists is a good idea when so many other dangers are being ignored. And the example of cars shows us this would not solve the problem anyway - there are drivers who would drive no differently if you took away their badly adjusted mirrors they almost never look into. We have so many options to choose from if we cycle in traffic from handlebar mirrors to glove mounted mirrors, helmet mirrors, mirrors on or in glasses and even the radar rear lights @richardworley7798 mentioned that whoever is aware enough to feel the need to have the rear view can fairly easily find a way to do it. I think education is the way to go rather than police giving fines to those without a mirror without being able to check if those with mirrors have them adjusted well and use them, or if the radar sensor is actually turned on or not etc. I find that most people have no idea there are mirror options that weigh a few grams and clip onto your glasses. Both among cyclists and non-cyclists. That is just one example where just improving the general awareness of the available options would help. I have met cyclists who hate the idea of a mirror on the handlebars of their roadbike (partially not wanting to be ridiculed due to some stupid stigma against mirrors in certain circles) but when the found glasses with a small mirror neatly embedded in the corner of them they went for it.

You think that email was "strongly worded?" How fragile is your ego, Ashley? Let him speak.

@Tillyard86

3 ай бұрын

He said in the video that he just found the comment puzzling, and he wanted to get a better understanding of what he meant.

After completion: nothing particular to add or take issue with, just thanks to two men for sharing an honest, mature and illuminating conversation about road use.

One thing I do agree with in that letter is road surface. Motorists don't notice it and don't look ahead of the cyclist to see if the might need to go around issues in thee road surface itself.

@ashley_neal

3 ай бұрын

I actually think they do, but they don't think of cyclists as you say.

@EightPawsProductionsHD

3 ай бұрын

As a motorist, I do. My previous vehicle was a Mini Cooper with factory sport suspension, and I've recently bought an Audi A1 again with factory sport suspension, meaning poor road surfaces/pot holes, sunken or raised manhole covers (can we call them that these days?!) etc are certainly no fun at all to drive over unawares - amongst all my other observations and anticipations, I am looking at the road surface for the safest line not only for myself but also other road users.

@Rover200Power

3 ай бұрын

Some only notice these things about a second before they drive over them. Like the person in front of me yesterday who swerved into oncoming traffic to avoid a smallish pothole, instead of adjusting their line slightly to the left and avoiding it that way. Brain the size of a peanut.

Ashley isn’t listening, he sits there with his tongue in cheek looking away, his wife know what he’s like. Ash is ‘always right’, IMHO.

@ashley_neal

3 ай бұрын

I'm listening intently

@geoffuk8356

3 ай бұрын

@@ashley_neal not active listening, condescending listening, "I know better" listening, body language says more than you actually say. I am unsubscribing.

@ashley_neal

3 ай бұрын

Shame you both didn't probably watch the whole video as it's a good one.

@Tillyard86

3 ай бұрын

@@geoffuk8356at no point does he say he knows better.

@Kenjh71

3 ай бұрын

He's an instructor, in his universe he talks while others listen. If students speak, they either say the "right" thing or they are wrong and Ashley can correct them. It was partly amusing to watch and listen two people who pretend to be open minded but are completely stuck in their worlds.

I'm not sure that the email says 'better than a motorist' at observations, it says specifically 'more aware of road conditions'. That's very important for a cyclist - a bit of rain or a shallow pothole won't do more than inconvenience me slightly, but could spell disaster for a cyclist. A lorry driver probably is way more aware than a car driver of changes in elevation, because they will play a big part in overall speed. Edit: my opinion might change after seeing the whole video of course.

@ashley_neal

3 ай бұрын

'Whether you are as aware as a cyclist might be" were the exact words and were said to me. 'What I am saying is as a cyclist I am significantly much more aware of road conditions and surroundings than motorists' was also your point in its entirety. Quite a bold statement.

@laceandwhisky

3 ай бұрын

Yep and as a biker ( motorcycle)broken road surface, fuel spillages, pot holes, road metal cover hardware, tar seam repairs, cats eyes, mud, loose grit(especially on corners), water running off onto the road, birds, animals, pedestrians ( hence my loud exhaust), those at jct's and roundabouts that don't observe, leaves, yep probably missed a few out 😊

@theaikidoka

3 ай бұрын

@@ashley_nealWhat? No it isn't. First, I'm not a cyclist, I'm a driver. My point was that the cyclist might be looking more closely for specific factors than a motorist, because those factors are important. NOT that the cyclist is better or worse than the motorist. Please don't put words in my mouth.

@haveabossday

3 ай бұрын

​@@theaikidokahes repeating what the cyclist said to him mate, not what you said

@theaikidoka

3 ай бұрын

@@haveabossdayRight, but I'm only reading from the email, I have no idea what was said in person, other than what is in the video.

Different, but transferable skill sets. As a cyclist, you learn to use your other senses a lot more. Also you have to cycle with much more of an eye on your own safety, and have to be more proactive in reading motorists, and being assertive in preventing them doing things that might put you in danger. I would say cycling generally makes you a better driver, although I would say, on todays roads, you generally have to have a higher risk tolerance if youre a cyclist which is probably a bad thing in itself, especially compared to the risk averseness you would expect from a driving instructor.

@paulhayes6920

3 ай бұрын

Thanks. You've said a lot of the things I was thinking of.

@rufusgreenleaf2466

3 ай бұрын

It's like that saying, *"Nothing beats experience"* , familiarity can be a key to better understanding.

1:01:14 to be fair to Ray, I think I would also be doing 30mph there. Yes, it's a 40 limit, but there's a SLOW marking on the road, a tight bend and a junction on the left with poor visibility. I also slow down when cyclists are oncoming if the road is as narrow as that, just as I would do for an oncoming horse rider etc.

@ynotnilknarf39

3 ай бұрын

Neal is of the brigade that the speed limit is a target to get up to. It's wholly wrong and too often dangerous

@ChrisBrown-px1oy

3 ай бұрын

There was no-one behind them either, so Ashley's point there, the potential to trigger an overtake endangering oncoming cyclists, was hypothetical . To be fair to Ashley too, Ray didn't offer such a coherent defence as you did, and I got the impression he wasn't driving with much consciousness of speed in relation to limits. It's a nice way to be with the open road to oneself, but Ashley's argument that when speed can be a tool of management of others when sharing seemed to land with Ray.

@ChrisBrown-px1oy

3 ай бұрын

@@ynotnilknarf39 I don't agree about Ashley but I'm relieved to see you; I missed your challenges to the Tufty Club veterans who treat their entire driving lives as payback, in the comments on the Highway Code updates last weekend. There's enough "gammon" there to give anyone a heart attack.

@rufusgreenleaf2466

3 ай бұрын

​@@ynotnilknarf39Not really the case here, the road was open enough to anticipate ahead so 40 would have been more than fine. At the time Ashley brought it up instead of when the bend occurred, it was after that Ray was more than ok to speed up again.

@shm5547

3 ай бұрын

@@ChrisBrown-px1oy yes, in general Ray was a bit of a slow driver. Would not pass the IAM test, where they put quite a bit of emphasis on making progress

Hmm. Ashley Triggered would be a better title. He never responds well to criticism (he once did a video on parking on a private road where his son had been challenged by a resident) and on this occasion he just can't resist defending himslef from what he sees as criticism when the offer seems to be one of sharing insight. BTW, AN has changed my driving and legitimised how I drive and ride. Force for good IMO.

@JohnsonTheSecond

3 ай бұрын

Definitely a little pissed - not that he's wrong, probably just tired of hearing the "well I've been driving for 20 years im so experienced" crowd

@Saturnuria

3 ай бұрын

I think Ashley has a minor issue with listening to other people. It was clearly apparent in his New York videos where he did little other than speak over the, admittedly limited, American instructor. It’s quite rare to hear Ashley say, “That’s a good point. I hadn’t thought of it that way.” The thing is, Ashley appears to be a very good driver and instructor. But it’s highly unlikely he’s the best. I can almost guarantee there are people out there who are better at certain things than Ashley.

@pSynrg303

3 ай бұрын

@@Saturnuria Now you're just trying to wind him up again 😉

@Saturnuria

3 ай бұрын

@@pSynrg303 Maybe a little bit. I’ve just learned in life, no matter how good you are at something, it’s important to really listen to other people. Even if you don’t learn anything, it’s hard to argue effectively against their points if you haven’t properly heard them first. Besides, people love being given the courtesy of an opportunity to speak.

@15bit62

3 ай бұрын

He certainly seems very defensive in this vid.

6:02 Ashley trying to dupe the other guy! That cyclist IS traveling well over 20mph. I used to average 18-20mph on lumpy routes. A flat road like that, he's well over 20mph.

@Tillyard86

3 ай бұрын

Didn't you listen to his reasoning?

@devilscritic

3 ай бұрын

Someone needs to do one of those distance covered analyses things to get an approx speed

17:05 -17:25 Well here is one thing the urbanism KZread community would say you are both right and wrong. Sure people will still make mistakes, but it is possible in many case to literally build around those by making safer infrastructure that either make making those mistakes harder to do or even prevent them to be possible in the first place, for example making a car passing cyclist too close by having a bike path that physically separate car traffic from bike traffic with a barrier. So let's not also get distracted by saying that things are the way they always will be. it's not because humans are fallible that we cannot make roads account for it in many cases.

In all honesty, Ashley you acted like a insecure motorist in this... glad Ray got a word in, Ashley, you'd make a lousy interviewer! why is 'your way' ALWAYS RIGHT, it's not, just because you're a driving instructor doesn't make you an expert, this is purely about you Ashley Neal and ego and nothing else..

31:00 I get what Ray is trying to articulate here; you are just fundamentally more attuned to your environment on the bicycle, you just have far more senses available to you and things are happening at a lower speed. You just notice more.

@ashley_neal

3 ай бұрын

You shouldn't be though!

@shm5547

3 ай бұрын

@@ashley_neal it's just fact. Like a cyclist presents less risk than a motorist. Not a lot you can do about it. You cannot be _as_ observant in a car as you can on a bicycle. Just like a cyclist cannot knock down the wall of a house like a driver could.

@EightPawsProductionsHD

3 ай бұрын

Cyclists can still kill pedestrians though.@@shm5547

@shm5547

3 ай бұрын

@@EightPawsProductionsHD pedestrians can kill pedestrians too - probably more do than cyclists. Certainly motorised traffic is a greater danger, by orders of magnitude.

@dmac2573

3 ай бұрын

@@ashley_neal I think what they're saying is your senses are far more exposed. Your hearing, your vision, your sense of touch with the wind against your skin, even your smell! Things like road texture affect you far more. Added to that everything happens much much slower. It's not about competence or observation or planning, it's just a concrete fact that as a cyclist you are more in touch with what's happening around you and to you.

I always thought my anticipation and observations were good with 20 years experience of driving but since watching this channel for just over a year it is amazing just how poor they actually were when looking back on old videos of my driving I am much more aware of my surroundings, much more aware of other road users and above all else…by observing everything around me I can anticipate what others are going to do usually before the other road user knows they are going to do it

@thomaselliot2257

3 ай бұрын

Ashley's psychic abilities rub off on the most conscientious of driver.

@LeftCoastStephen

3 ай бұрын

As my dad used to say: Is it 20 years experience or 1 year’s experience, 20 times? If you’re not always learning, you fit the later category.

@rufusgreenleaf2466

3 ай бұрын

​@@LeftCoastStephenSpot on, it irritates me when people say "I've been driving 30 years" yet they know nothing of any recent changes to the highway code or better yet, their driving style cuts way too many corners. To be honest, we all cut corners (none of us drive like a learner) but some people are just reckless.

Let the guy get a word in edgewise.

@EightPawsProductionsHD

3 ай бұрын

*edgeways

@mcgoverg1

3 ай бұрын

@@EightPawsProductionsHDedgewise is perfectly correct

Both of you wondering whom observes better but both missed the steamed up rear window reducing visibility 🤣

@rufusgreenleaf2466

3 ай бұрын

How do you think vans with no back window drive about safely? a steamed up back window isn't an issue to an experienced driver as long as it eventually demists. Although that is just to help observation, other than be dependent on it.

@Rover200Power

3 ай бұрын

​@@rufusgreenleaf2466 Is that why you never see a van with dents all over the back from reversing into things? 😉

@rufusgreenleaf2466

3 ай бұрын

@@Rover200Power I actually don't see that many dents in the back of vans but now you mention it i'll probably start seeing them all the time. 😅. I agree with you to some extent but it wasn't too much of a problem as long as it was going to eventually demist.

Enjoying this conversation. I do agree though that riding a bike changes your mentality as you feel there is a real risk to your life. Observations should be the same but a greater perceived threat focuses the mind. For most people.

Very nice chat. Though I do still prefer the original version with Sian Gibson and Peter Kay.

@michaelhope8899

3 ай бұрын

😂😂

He really touched a nerve by saying your observations arent perfect hey? 🤣

@Tillyard86

3 ай бұрын

He said he thought it was a puzzling thing to say, and he wanted to get a better understanding of what he meant.

Ashley so defensive here. No need to be though. There is certainly more road feel and field of view for a cyclist. In the moment.

@Tillyard86

3 ай бұрын

Skip to about 30 minutes; he makes an excellent point about this.

A driving licence is a licence to learn. Having many years experience, no crashes, a good no claims discount is what is used to tell if a driver is good or not, but are they a good driver? Do they tail gate slightly but have never rear ended someone, do they do 35mph in a 30 zone but not crashed so they are a good driver, do they drive into a situation they could of held back on for better flow but instead had to stop and start again? There is so much more to learn after passing the driving test, there is so much more to learn driving different vehicles. The drivung skills themself are similar to each vehicle, but the smaller vehicles carry more risk, and you need to learn skills to protect yourself for when other drivers (that might be a good driver according to insurance) dont consider you and put you at risk.

@BadDriversOfNapa

3 ай бұрын

I drive 5 over the limit quite frequently, but that doesn't make me not a good driver. It's not like going 31 or 32, or even 35 renders the driver suddenly dangerous. It's such a trivial and small amount over the speed limit. Ashley said it himself that it's not speed that kills, it's the difference in speed. I do believe however, that gross excess speed does in fact, kill. However, 5 over the limit doesn't qualify as a gross excess. I find that by driving 5 over the limit, I blend in with the flow of traffic. I get tailgated less. I have drivers pass me on the wrong side of the road less frequently. In many ways it's actually safer because I'm reducing the speed differential since everyone else around me exceeds the speed limit.

Rather condescending tone from the outset. I miss the curiosity and eagerness to learn the point of view from the other person, someone who quite obviously has a lot to offer. Technically, I think both are top class, but I don't get why Ashley has to repeatedly and unnecessarily claim his ground.

@shaunpitt842

3 ай бұрын

Yeah I felt this way too. Ashley constantly interrupts the guest as well and often just tells him he's wrong. I appreciate however that the cyclists tone in the email might have made Ashley quite defensive though.

@twelve8952

3 ай бұрын

@@shaunpitt842 The way he tries to switch it around and give Ray a driving lesson; repeatedly asserting dominance, is transparently and disturbingly sociopathic.

@nrosko

3 ай бұрын

His clear bias (yes we all are) made him misinterpret the guests points several times & going on & on about the email like it was the most insulting thing he has ever read instead of just getting over it. The Email was super friendly IMO just offering another viewpoint, no idea why he thought it was strongly worded or critical. I think Ashley was right in the original video btw but his reaction to the email is just silly.

@Tillyard86

3 ай бұрын

In what sense is any of what he said condescending, he’s just giving his viewpoint of what the guy is saying. Ash is just responding to what he said, he’s not claiming any ground, this isn’t some kind of war of words, he’s just responding to what he’s saying to him. Did you want him to just humour him and pretend he agreed or something?

@Tillyard86

3 ай бұрын

@@shaunpitt842 no where I the video does Ash ever tell him he’s wrong.

'Play Nice' - an oft used and excellent piece of advice from a better half 😂.

I can't remember who said it, but it was a real eye opener, while cycling regularly, when someone told me that "It doesn't matter if you're right if you're dead".

I definitely think I'm a better driver than Ashley and have far better observations and reactions. I wouldn't call him out to monitor my driving though! Thats brave 👏

@smilerbob

3 ай бұрын

I think we all want to see a video now where you show us your driving compared to Ashley’s 😁👍

@ibs5080

3 ай бұрын

@@smilerbob That's one comparison I'm going to stay well away from!

@thomaselliot2257

3 ай бұрын

If Ashley was in the passenger seat, I would get my " get out of jail free card "by admitting I am not worthy, first of all, and I know I will make mistakes, but you are there to tell me where I am going wrong , and what I can do to improve and keep myself, and other road users, safe. 😌

@ibs5080

3 ай бұрын

@@thomaselliot2257 That's pretty much the approach I would take too. To learn from Ashley and improve my driving.

@EightPawsProductionsHD

3 ай бұрын

Show us all then.

I skipped a lot of the stationary chat but was blessed to see it around 30-32mins on the build up to you catching your viewer out about the I'm alright Jack (my words) attitude when in the cage.

What was expected to be a bit of a heated debate turned to be a civilized discussion between two gentlemen and a new friendship came out of it 😂 Love to see it! Hope we get to see more of Ray on the biking channel 🙂

@ashley_neal

3 ай бұрын

I'm definitely going to get out on a bike for a ride with Ray shortly!

Does anyone know what an expressway is?

If I remember correctly Ash has a motorcycle ticket as well, this would also be a good one with a fairly experienced biker. Cyclists and bikers do have the edge on observation without pillars and small windows getting in the way. So a flip side of the coin is us bikers and cyclists don't really have any excuse not to see what's around us.

@jimmybloggs3029

3 ай бұрын

It would be worth having the conversation with a motorcyclist or lorry driver who actually showed good mirror use and/or was well regimented in shoulder checks (as would be expected of an experienced cyclist or motorcyclist in particular). Unfortunately, this gentleman fell far short in both categories so it's only words for the sake of words.

"What about the colour of that pink Audi?" - "Disgusting" - "Sound" 😂 so good to see you both on the same page of such an important issue. In all seriousness, great video, started off a little tense but it became a very constructive. As a cyclist who's going to be learning how to drive soon, I certainly need to start thinking about how I'll be driving to protect cyclists and other road users and not loose focus when in the safety of a metal box. Can't wait to see to cycling video!

As both a cyclist and motorist, I drive like I ride my bike, through red lights and on and off the pavement.

Ashley, if you're looking at a road bike I'd plump for a gravel bike or similar hybrid type. It will take larger tyres and allow you to go almost anywhere except serious mountain bike trails. I find mine much easier to ride and more trustworthy than my old road bike. It doesn't feel much slower but having the option to ride old railway lines, canals and tracks makes for more variety. Plus you can avoid traffic here and there.

20 minutes in...how many times are you going to ask about him questioning your observational skills 🤣

@Tillyard86

3 ай бұрын

He explains at about the point in the video why he's asking him that.

This worked out better than even YOU had feared, going by your expression after meeting him 5 mins. before. It was good that he was willing to admit things that he did wrong in his observations and anticipation when driving ,which you pointed out at the time, and there are no split second moments. No arguments. Super that there were occasionally, like it was destined, that you came across cyclists on the road to provide good learning points on better protection to cyclists, even from themselves, as a driver needs to do, since they are more protected in their 2 ton box.

@ashley_neal

3 ай бұрын

I was made up with how this video turned out. This also proves that the written word doesn't convey accuracy on many occasions.

@thomaselliot2257

3 ай бұрын

@@ashley_neal that is very true. Will look forward to your bike ride later. You may have already done so.🙂

Great vid! No big argument and civilised debate (and even compliments to each other!), all interesting stuff! Watched the beginning convo earlier and came back to watch the driving stuff. Big tangent: Today I learned Ashley used to play football professionally, and was at Liverpool, no less! Hang on.. Liverpool? And the surname Neal? A quick trip to Wikipedia and I also learned today Ashley is Phil Neal's son! I'm only a recently subbed viewer (like November/December approaching my January test), so that was another fascinating - and rather cool - fact on top of recently finding the channel!

How many of us older drivers with 20 years plus experience could benefit from driving lessons ? This would make a great series. “perfect drivers” would make a great name. Hubris grows along with the danger we pose to other road users.

@Tillyard86

3 ай бұрын

When I bought my first car, the salesman told me, “When you are learning, you are just working out how to pass your test. It's not until you start driving independently that you learn how to drive.”

Ashley, I wonder if you could get through to people who believe that observations should be done to protect themselves first, by stating it differently. So, if I'M observing for me, that's 1x person trying to keep me safe. If I'm in traffic with ten other drivers, and they are ALL looking out for everyone, that's 10x people trying to keep me safe. Being altruistic would benefit you more than a self-serving apporoach.

This was a strange video. Awkward attempts to a discussion between someone who is not able to get his points across, and a driving instructor who is used to only hearing what he expects to hear. Mood changed when they started driving, when Ashley could fall into his natural role as the commander and oracle. He dropped his shoulders and it seemed to lighten the mood a bit. But it was just like a talkshow in a car, they never really went into detail about observations as the moved along. And when they did (the BMW), Ashley took a superior position ignoring the reasoning from the other. As a driving instructor would. The only reason it ended on a good note is down to Ray being a) not brave enough to put his real points through or b) he is just a really nice guy.

@Tillyard86

3 ай бұрын

They are just two guys having a chat, I wouldn't take it so seriously.

That pink Audi was fabulous and that colour makes it more visible, also! Great exchange of perspectives here, lovely to see! Riding a bike in a bigger city for a while, has also caused me to look over my shoulders more when walking or driving even.

This is an informative video with many interesting moments and conversation. Fair play to both of you for putting this together and Ray seems like a genuine, decent man who is receptive to learning but I can’t decide whether he is brave or foolish. I have sat and watched with great interest because I think videos like this are what we should be promoting - honest and civil conversation. However, there are a number things that Ray said and did that don’t chalk up to the level of experience he said he has. We can call the moment of him inadvertently admitting that he does less observations in a car than on his bike a bit of a ‘faux-pas’ but his driving does appear to match this thought-process. That meeting situation with the BMW was obvious - I knew what your analysis would be before you said it Ashley and the intentions of the BMW driver were clear, in my opinion. Again, nothing major, but does give you an indication. Either way, thank you to both for the interesting ‘front-row’ seat for the conversation.

What a great video, Ray was such a nice chap. He was willing to listen to Ashley, I’m looking forward to the bike ride video.

Great video and thanks to Ray for his time behind the wheel of your car.

Absolutely spot on when Ash says people copy behaviors, I always copy Ashley's driving behavior 😊 I've been driving for 8 years and have definitely had a significant improvement over the last 6 years since I found this channel. I'm still on my "N license"(the one here that lets me drive with no supervision) though cause I haven't had a chance to take the road test yet, and after I finally remembered I could take the test a few years ago then covid backed everything up)

I followed a cyclist for 5 miles along a single track road on Monday, there just wasn't enough space to get past in my opinion, added an extra 20 minutes to my drive. The guy knew I was there, kept looking round at me, didn't wave me by though. Why didn't he stop in one of the passing places? Selfish behaviour of people these days.

@theaikidoka

3 ай бұрын

Frankly I prefer cyclists not to wave me past, often they make a poor choice as to when to do it. However, if there were passing places they didn't utilise for you to pass them in, that IS selfish.

@paulhayes6920

3 ай бұрын

The more I think about this the harder I find it. As a cyclist and driver I feel intimidated by people driving behind me when I know they want to overtake (I think a lot pf people see me as a slow driver). I try hard to give people opportunities to overtake - when its safe. When I'm driving and stuck behind a tractor I'm always struck by how few of them pull over and I can't help but think its bloody mindedness, but at the same time we all have a right to be on the road and we're all responsible for our own safety and that trumps everything.

@russellalexander5800

3 ай бұрын

5 mile single track road, no possible overtaking, with an ignorant cyclist on it. The only time I ever see this kind of road or cyclist is in the comments section.

@theaikidoka

3 ай бұрын

@@russellalexander5800Well, I'm glad. Personally I have no more problem with cyclists than motorists. I do have an issue with selfish people. Use the road considerately and everything is good.

@ChrisBrown-px1oy

3 ай бұрын

I had an interesting drive a bit like this, maybe 2 miles, in lowland Derbyshire last July. Not a single track road and no passing places, but narrow enough that two meeting cars would have to pass each other quite slowly. The cyclist in front, about my mid-50s age, clearly would have liked me to pass and took secondary position, but the curvature and my unfamiliarity never made it seem quite safe to me. I adjusted my position to further back to reduce any experience of pressure he might have had; I did not need to be on that road. I don't really know if there is a moral here, but I was enjoying travelling through this guy's home countryside as a privilege, and it never occurred to me that his behaviour might be selfish. What Ashley said about thinking the world is against us is certainly not unique to some cyclists who post on social media.

21:13 ....says Ashley for the 300th time...

The part at 54:05 about signalling, I am more aware of when I signal in the car because of your phrase “Who are we signalling to?” If we do manage to get out on the road together (need to organise around my work and life in general) then I have a couple of junctions off a dual carriageway where I am signalling much earlier than taught because it is necessary to slow down earlier and that affects traffic behind. However, if there is nobody behind that will be affected then the signal is timed a few seconds before exiting. No longer do I have a habitual signal I also have a couple of slip roads to drive with you where it is almost impossible to not still be accelerating as you merge onto the carriageway due to one being a very short slip road and the other being 30mph until quite close to the end. In general we all need to be at the correct speed early along the sliproad but if it isn’t always possible then it is manageable

I had to watch this video in two halves but i have to say it was an interesting one. A 'podcast' "Agree to dissagree" type of video instead of being one sided. Sense was made from both parties and as myself who has both cycled and driven, it really opens the mind to each perspective. Ashley made a lot of points in his teachings but Ray also made a lot of sense in his experience as what cyclists have to deal with on a daily basis. Being more vulnerable does cause more instinctive reactions other than planned ones but on the flip side anticipation does become a key lesson in all modes of transport. I also think that Ray's main reasons for hesitation and lower speeds in this video are also to do with the feeling of vulnerability, instead of understanding how it could affect the potential behaviours of those around you. Which is what Ashley pointed out.

Pleasant little podcast! It comes up at the end of the video, but I'm interested in what Ashley and Ray have to say about the Garmin Varia radars. I recently bought it. I was more interested in the flashing depending on cars detected features than the actual display and audio warning, as I wasn't sure having the knowledge of a car coming in a different way rather than looking or listening would alter my riding much. That my visibility would increase if it detects a car behind felt like a good feature, more like demanding to be seen rather than just be visible. But actually Its best purpose so far is that it works as a good reminder to do look backwards, do rear observations more. It starts beeping at 150 meter, that's way early for urban environments, were I tend to ride most, but even though it's becoming a great little pavlovian reaction almost. One minor gripe I have is that it does detects cyclists and still detect cars even if I'm on a cycle path next to a road, where the cars are no worry. That makes it a lot less useful in that Dutch urban environment, and to be honest probably annoying to cyclists behind as the lights are quite bright.

Needed a bigger mug of tea for this one this morning.. Still worth a watch..

Brilliant debating from both sides there. The chemistry grew throughout the video once you both eased off from your apprehensions of how it was going to play out

That was *SO* fun watching and listening, and learning.

A long one this morning. Will watch later👍

@ibs5080

3 ай бұрын

Same for me. Good morning from a lovely sunny day in Canterbury.

@thomaselliot2257

3 ай бұрын

Annoyingly, I just realised you replied to me on Ashley's last video, but it was hidden again from the top category, but I just found it in the "newest" category.

@ibs5080

3 ай бұрын

@@thomaselliot2257 No worries Thomas. I know how finicky YT messages can be. Hope all is well with you and family.

Hi Ashley, I was just wondering what an expressway is? I’ve not come across that term before. 🙃

One small part in the video is mentioning driving the same way you cycle or vice versa. I cycled before learning to drive and I have noticed that I drive exactly in the same manner as I cycled. Everything I learned riding a bicycle transferred to driving a car.

No matter how much experience on a bike or driving a car, a split second decision makes all the difference.

A really nice chat about using the road. Truthfully im not into this set of rules for cycling and this set for driving to me its the same rules for using the road.. The part when Ray was mentioning about when he rides he want the car past as quickly as possible at times can be a flawed thinking. I personally if cycling would rather someone wait slightly longer to pass in a safe place rarther than it is probably ok place. Its all to do with risk to reward balance. Depending on the situation someone actually holding back can protect the cyclist. The only thing i wish car drivers in a line of traffic on the open road would do when passing is actually signal especially the first car . The first car comes past nice and safe . Then the second car doesn't give as much room as they have only watched what the first car was doing. Not what whas in front of them. I feel that by the first car indicating it signals to the car following they also need to pull out as there is a hazard. The same as in a bunch ride and the use of hand signals to tell the rider behind to move over for the hazard . In a group ride whe everyone is travelling way closer than anyone would drive combination in the group is even more important

@shm5547

3 ай бұрын

"past as quickly as possible" did make me flinch a bit, but I think he meant it more that he doesn't want to be holding traffic up. He was patient waiting behind that cyclist at 1:03:55 Some cyclists do have the attitude that they want cars past as quickly as possible and are not bothered about close passes. There were a couple at work, one a TT rider used to dual-carriageway racing, who liked close passes as they propelled them forward a bit! The other a casual commuter who rode very slowly in the gutter, who once exclaimed it's the idiots who slow down and don't pass me at 60mph who are the problem! Both I determined to be bonkers!

My word at the footway parking around that guy's house! As for "split second" moments, I've been cycling on UK roads since the 70s and have had surprisingly few of them. I've had several scary moments that were my own fault, mind...

Hi Flyers, video suggestion for after your next op Andy, (hopefully a success with a quick recovery). Maybe a trip to a local super bike factory to give us newbies an appraisal of the 2nd hand market, what to look for when buying 2nd hand, perhaps with a slant towards those (like Mrs Flyer) looking to upgrade to their first “big” bike?

That was enlightening watching from beginning to end. Definitely never getting a driving lesson from Ashley. Very high standard. Now cannot wait to see him on a bike to see how these two get on. Should be equally interesting particularly the suggested route. Just don't know whether perspective from the bike is the same as the car in terms of how drivers read the intention of the cyclist. Always a question of give and take with the cyclist bearing mind will always come off second best if not thinking ahead. BTW totally agree that cyclist have to avoid anything that blocks their senses such as headphones. Need to have 100% of your senses and brain cells working.

We're never done learning and that's great.

It's a venn diagram of skills and decision making. It can also depend on the cycle/cyclist. I'll pick a different line on my gravel bike as opposed to the mountain bike. I'm happy riding secondary. Having that left side avoiding line is great. I'll go primary at junctions but I still can't bring myself to keep taking primary in all the places advocated. For example, riding at 15/20mph on busy 60mph road with a mile of double white lines. 90% of drivers don't care what position you take up. Most are too impatient. Sadly, my decision making process is often - "next time find different route as that stretch was quite hairy"

Good video. More broadly speaking, I bet this level is way beyond most drivers & cyclists capability…..and that means we all must remember that for when we encounter them on the road. Tbh, most people are driving or cycling around w/out half as much insight….at least they are here. If you don’t get upto the correct speed limit, you will get overtaken…..usually by a German car. Even if you take longer to reach the speed, you will get overtaken by a German car…or possibly a cheap, small, old French car. Car width is a good idea instead of 1.5M….i suppose it could be argued a Daewoo Matiz is a lot less wide than your Ford focus or an SUV. The painted dot mini roundabouts….can be impossible to completely avoid at times. Note how the dot is too wide for the people turning right to avoid it. I can’t remember but isn’t it worded, you must go round the dot if there is sufficient room. Therefore if not, or it involves crossing over a lane to your left, you can then go over the dot. With larger vehicles this is a necessity.

As a driver, cyclist, motorcyclist and ex horse rider. I say you are wrong here Ashley. That was entirely the car drivers fault. The cyclist was travelling at a reasonable speed, the driver should have had some patience.

@ynotnilknarf39

3 ай бұрын

Wasting your time, Neal has too big an ego to admit he's in the wrong.

@Tillyard86

3 ай бұрын

He's not saying the driver isn't at fault; he's saying the cyclist should be doing better.

@GadgetMart

3 ай бұрын

@@Tillyard86 doing better how? As a daily commuter and motorcycle rider that cyclist was 100% correct in his actions. He was aware of the idiot car driver but he was holding his position in the road, like he should. You don’t yield to vehicles coming from the rear. Especially on a narrow road with speed bumps and parked cars. I agree the cyclist should have tried to make room if the road was wider and suitable for a safe overtake by the car driver.

@Tillyard86

3 ай бұрын

@@GadgetMart watch Ash’s original video or this one, he explains how he thinks he could have done better.

@GadgetMart

3 ай бұрын

@@Tillyard86 I’ve watched it. It’s obvious Ashley hasn’t done much road cycling, especially in traffic. As the cyclist says, give a driver a whiff of a chance and they will clip you. Oh sorry mate!! Hold your position very few drivers will knowingly ram you. Heirachy of the road, cyclists have priority over motorists. (Not to mention that the vehicle in front also has priority, you don’t yield to vehicles behind you).

Just on the face of it I'd say that any cyclist who has simply *_survived_* 50+ years as a cyclist probably does have better _observation_ skills than a car driver of a similar length of experience. That doesn't, of course, mean they are necessarily a better _road user_ than a similar car driver, they may be, they may not; and vice-versa.

Lorry driver here. TRUST me, if people knew just how sketchy it is for vehicles to get anywhere near my lorry, they would give lorries a wider berth. Never ever ever go close to a lorry unless you are immediately safely passing.

Oh and great great video Ashley👍👍👍

I'm a new driver and a cyclist, but if I ever I read the words , "as a cyclist," makes me cringe with the entitlement. 5 minutes into this and I feel so uncomfortable.😅

The only thing I have with Ashley's "sudden" things is that car drivers can be looking straight at you and then pull forward anyway. They're just not processing you as a danger so don't "see" you. From your point of view they have stopped and have eye contact with you so you are safe to proceed, and then they start pulling forward. Happened yesterday, and wasn't close or dangerous, just another reminder that what you are seeing isn't necessarily what is happening.

@ashley_neal

3 ай бұрын

You can generally still pick up on certain clues. What has the driver been doing observational wise prior to just pulling out? If they have been looking right and left, they're likely to move. If they're just looking at you, they're less likely.

I be watching this later 😊

You are right Ray needs to drive more with the traffic because of his lack of progress other drivers will be frustrated and do overtakes that may not be the safest.

Interesting video, he drives really well with good forward observation and anticipation. His mirror use needs improving however, especially the use of his side mirrors. If he rides as well as he drives the bike ride should be interesting.

@ynotnilknarf39

3 ай бұрын

people who ride a lot on the roads tend to have fantastic peripheral vision, I look in the mirrors a lot but people don't see this because I'm not trying to pass a test and move my head deliberately to make an examiner beleive I'm looking in the mirrors.

Love this, I'm gonna have nightmares of driving with Ashley sitting next to me now.

At about 56:20 cuts the corner.

as i ride motorcycles, then yes i am much more aware of my surroundings and what is going on around me

58:20 The only time I've seen Ash react rather than pre-act was when he was attacked by the lawnmower 🤣 Even then, I may remember wrong, maybe he did pre-act, but the lawnmower got him anyway (in the BMW if I recall)......I've tried to find the video, but can't remember the title (probably part of a driving fail)

Ashley has views, does that mean he's always right? Rules are there to be followed, but, a vast number of road users fail to follow them, so it is an ever changing, fluid environment. Instruction comes in a number of delivery styles, over inflated ego and an "I know best. no question" delivery has never worked for me. "Have your LITTLE input" relating to the BMW, would that be the ego belittling? Not confidence building language from an instructor.

@Tillyard86

2 ай бұрын

If you see it as nothing than them claiming to know better then you clearly fail to understand that most of the time they actually DO know better.

What a lovely watch this was!

I'm not a club cyclist, but have ridden circa 200,000 miles since the mid to late 80s, was relatively late at 23 to get a licence (passed 1st time after a dozen lessons), then did an advanced driver course in the late 2000s after a decade driving into/round/through London for work. I wasn't interested in being IAM certified I was curious about what else I could learn, what I did learn was motorists, even the advanced ones, fall short when it comes to understanding those on bikes perspective and have an inherrent bias. As it is, a 'club' cyclist infers absolutely nothing other than someone who rides a bike regularly and with club affiliation rides in a group and probably club apparel. There's such a huge differential between one person and another, not quite the differential as there is with people driving motorvehicles though, and that frankly should always be the majority of focus regards safety. A better comparison in any case would be an advanced cycle instructor. As I'll keep on saying, pushing more onus on to the vulnerable NEVER ends with the vulnerable (or indeed non vulnerable) being better off/safer, this happens in every single facet of life as those doing the most harm are often overlooked and onus pushed onto the groups that are getting harmed the most. Somehow people like Neal think there is an equal amount of responsibilit on the roads, this should never ever be the case. And when you get to the hi-vis and helmets nonsense, 'green cross code' for kids (and its modern iterations) etc, this is when the focus on those doing the harm is deflected to the vulnerable and more harm ensues. . Neal is insistant on getting up to the speed LIMIT and be in the flow of the traffic, this is WRONG and almost all instructors as far as I can tell on YT and from others recently passed that I know personally insist in this. IT IS NOT A TARGET, it is an absolute maximum ffs!

@ashley_neal

3 ай бұрын

I didn't think you would grasp the points I was talking about were to help keep cyclists safe while driving.

@Tillyard86

3 ай бұрын

Not sure what your point is with that first part. No one is suggesting there is any comparison between a cycling club to anything else. There most certainly is an equal amount of responsibility to all road users. You need to keep yourself safe as much as anyone else. Ash explains his point about the speed limit in this video. Watch it again. You say it's wrong but also admit all instructors suggest it, so how is it wrong?

@mcgoverg1

3 ай бұрын

Years ago, probably 20, my daughter failed her test for failing to get up to the speed limit despite the fact there was no one behind her. On that basis it would suggest that examiners see speed limits as targets to be achieved, albeit without impacting anyone’s safety. So extending that argument, should police stop any driver doing less than the speed limit on an open road? Clearly that would be crazy.. Drivers are free to travel at whatever speed suits them, providing they are not creating a tailback in so doing.

@Tillyard86

3 ай бұрын

@@mcgoverg1 it's about getting into the habit of doing it. The police do sometimes pull drivers over for driving too slow. Technically no law says they can't but it's a bit inconsiderate.

@ynotnilknarf39

3 ай бұрын

@@mcgoverg1 A tailback is fine if the person in front is doing a speed that is safe in and of itself. Slowing motorists down is no bad thing even if it causes a tailback, because speed is the root cause of most crashes/deaths/injuries (incl failed to look type incidents because it's going too fast as to why they don't look properly) the % of motorists actually obeying speed limits in urban areas is ridiculously low and that's even taking into account slower traffic due to sheer volumes of vehicles. VOSA/driving instructor/eaminers would rather get up to the limit so as to not 'slow others down' than consider the safety implications

It's things like country roads where the cyclist wants a drink so he stops peddling and slides into the middle with vehicles behind him now having to react This is often done with groups of 15.

How could someone take such offence over an innocuous letter like that? All he pointed out was that through his cycling experience he may observe things that a motorist may not. Strange how it really triggered you Ash! Couldn't watch more than 10 mins as your condescending tone in defence of your superior road safety started to grate on me!

@ashley_neal

3 ай бұрын

Interesting you say I was triggered, but you couldn't watch more than 10 minutes. It's a shame that you didn't continue and watch the rest of the video because it's a really positive one.

@unofficialleeds9084

3 ай бұрын

How is Ashley triggered in this? All I see is two experienced road users sharing their opinions and providing a valuable insight into road safety. Not everything on the internet is an argument.

@EightPawsProductionsHD

3 ай бұрын

So, YOU were triggered?

I think if you cycle or ride a motorcycle regularly, it improves your car driving skills.

33:50 Ford Rangers etc have now been put back ON the Business Tax, so people buying HUGE (& more dangerous die to sightlines, stability etc) tonka trucks rather than merely VERY LARGE tonka trucks (ie

A problem is that there are different kinds of cycling. Cycling for speed (often with thin tires and light bicycles) is fundamentally different from cycling for travel. The problem is that some cyclists treat travel cycling as if it is speed/sports cycling. Sports cycling doesn't match with heavy traffic or complex situations.

@ynotnilknarf39

3 ай бұрын

the far bigger problem is that a huge proportion of motorists treat travel (utility is the correct word for riding a bike other than for sport/fitness/leisure) as if it's a speed or sport event. THIS is where the vast majority of deaths and serious injuries come from, people in motors simply don't give a shit about anyone except themselves and treat the roads as a racing track! This shows in the 1700+ deaths caused by motorists and the 20,000+ serious injuries every year

@PauldeVrieze

3 ай бұрын

@@ynotnilknarf39 My point is that any traffic participant needs to consider the traffic as it is, not as they want it to be. Driving for speed belongs on the racetrack (unless blue light services), and many drivers drive sensibly (maybe except trainee BMW drivers). As a cyclist you want to arrive safely at your destination without injury or being "dead right". Just as city driving is mainly about anticipating and managing traffic, the same holds true for cycling. Speed cycling is fine as long as the circumstances allow (even on a cycling path it may be inappropriate due to other cyclists).

@ynotnilknarf39

3 ай бұрын

@@PauldeVrieze But the point remains, putting more onus onto the vulnerable ends with worse outcomes for the vulnerable and also those in motorvehicles. The discriminatory system set up favours motorists and takes responsibility away from them such that even when they kill and maim the focus is often on what the victim was/was not doing in a way that is unequitable. 99.99% of the time, wiuthout the actions of the motorist no incident occurs.

@ynotnilknarf39

3 ай бұрын

@@PauldeVrieze But you're advocating an equal responsibility, this isn't right and given the harms done by motorists there needs to be a far greater responsibility on them. Pushing onus on to the vulnerable never works to increase safety.

@PauldeVrieze

3 ай бұрын

@@ynotnilknarf39 I am not advocating equal responsibility. I am saying that in complex traffic situations you need to drive according to the conditions. As to responsibility, each traffic participant needs to do their own bit as they can't control others (legal responsibility being a separate matter).

I feel Ray was honest, and although he started with good intentions, he may have fell off his bike on some points and every driver knows, you have to give cyclists enough room to fall off as everyone makes mistakes and you never know when. His concept of his view being closer to the front of the cycle due to height is alien to me - Sorry, Ray that is awful! You are in a higher position and can see further ahead. You should be looking at what is going on six cars in front, so you have time to react and not cause a problem, that is for your own safety as well as others, and because you have that luxury - use it!. I was a club member years ago when I was younger and left due to the urgency to start fights with traffic. They would fan out across both sides of the road when going uphill, so I agree with what Ray says regarding the culture of club riders with only one or two thinking the others are being idiots but don't speak up. I also live on a cycling route now, we have around a thousand bikes passing in the summer, a good mix of leisure and numerous clubs. The clubs are more alert to their surroundings with good club calling hazards out to the rest, however the willingness to put themselves in danger to apportion blame and fight other road users is still alive and well. Not just vehicles either - as a pedestrian walking down my street that is unpaved, I regularly get shouted at by these 'Peletons' to 'F**king Move!' or 'Get off the Road' when there is nowhere to go short of jumping into the hawthorns. I also ride a motorcycle, so appreciate the lifesaver shoulder check. I see occasional cyclists do it, and they are more likely in a group to check than alone when most don't bother - they pull into traffic and rely on the driver to avoid them. Motorcyclists don't get the same courtesy as cyclists do with passing distance, they just don't - cars pass motorbikes close and always will. So I understand the anguish - but you do have to take responsibility for your own safety. Too many cyclists are far to willing to put their lives in danger for the sake of blaming or calling out others mistakes, or for failing to adjust for the cyclists mistake in the manner the cyclist considered they should. Some just want to be a victim, Mr Vine I feel has a lot to contribute to the victim culture. I pulled out of my driveway one morning and stopped outside whilst I shut the gate. After I did this, a cyclist approached and shook his head at me disapprovingly. He wasn't aware that I had seen his head appearing over the crest of the hill and I plenty of time to emerge and park before he got to me. In fact I was out the car, shut the gates and back in, by the time he got to the car waiting for him to pass before pulling out. He felt that I 'Could have killed him' - maybe, but I'd have time for a cuppa whilst waiting for him to get there. It just shows that culture of being a victim, being right above all absurdity is an absolute must. To reiterate, Club Cyclists are more aware of their surroundings, but are incredibly more willing to put themselves in danger deliberately to cause an event. Nothing proves that more than the comments on this post, which are defending the us and them, that blame game launched against others, rather than self reflection. I can't say that it wasn't around long before the highway code update, but that did fuel the fire. I will state one thing that I always say : You wouldn't trust a stranger with your wallet, so why trust them with your life? - you look after your own safety, don't rely on someone else doing it for you, just because a book says they have to. You can rely on yourself.

Ashley, what did you learn from Ray that you think might improve your driving?

As a cyclist he is significantly more aware of road conditions and surroundings than a motorist? I am a motorist but also a cyclist for 30+ years. Perhaphs , rather than training as an advanced driver and rider and and constantly working on improving my driving, I should have just joined a cycle club? With regard to years cycling as a qualifiacation , reminds me of one of AShely's viewers who drove through a 20mph at 40mph, then blasted his horn as he came round a bend at an oncomming car coming through a gap because he had priority . As far as he was concerned , he was in the right and an expert on driving as been driving for 10 years.

@jimmybloggs3029

3 ай бұрын

Ironically enough, he totally undermined his own point here for me. Mirror discipline was absolutely appalling in many places, often driving straight through a hazard and only checked his mirror afterwards! And for being a self-proclaimed example of 2 wheeled observation perfection, he doesn't seem to do too many shoulder checks.

I switched off after Ray said " the problem for him in a sense as a bike rider is he is on a wet road" - should the bike rider not have been cycling according to road conditions?

Is it now compulsory to wear safety belts in a car while parked, with the engine off, for an extended period of time. personally I wouldn’t, I don’t find them overly comfortable.

@Tillyard86

3 ай бұрын

Two possible reasons: force of habit, or they thought they would get going right away, but then they got to chatting.

Ray might have been a bit overly hesitant as you were sitting next to him. You’d always be second guessing your decisions and wondering whether the guy who instructs instructors would be doing the same. But of course, you’d realise this Ashley. Wouldn’t it be great if the resources were available to have a driving refresher every 5 or so years.

Sorry Ashley, bailed on this after 10 minutes.

@Tillyard86

3 ай бұрын

Come back to it later, YT will remember where you were in the video.

The pickup tax thing was dropped the day after they announced it….all the farmers complained! Glad they did or I’d be paying £300 a month more in tax!

@benholroyd5221

3 ай бұрын

On the other hand, why should I have to pay £300 a month tax on my (hypothetical) company car, but you don't have to pay the same.

Unexpectedly pleasant. Still going to make the meme though. Virgin cyclist Vs Chad driving instructor.

Would genuinely be intrigued, Ashley talks about taking the primary position a lot. In my experience here in Manchester (and from ten years of cycling) 75% of the time I take primary position someone beeps at me for taking up the round, often shouting expletives out of the window... What should I be doing here? My main contribution to the discussion would be that I don't think Ashley or any other car-focused road users acknowledge enough how terrifying it is to cycle often, I've had people tell me they are gonna kill me, knock me off, threaten to fight me... At least once this has happened because I took primary position for a short part of a road. It's all well and good hypothetically asserting yourself but in practice it's far different when cycling for nearly ten hours a week

@ashley_neal

3 ай бұрын

I cycle often. I've also completed the cycle instructor training course (although I'm not going to bother with the final assessment to teach) so I understand about Primary. Many road users (including cyclists) don't have a clue on when and how this should be used.

@shaunpitt842

3 ай бұрын

@@ashley_neal thanks for the reply Ashley. I'm aware, I've actually watched a lot of your videos (including ones where you cycle) and despite never having driven try and let them inform my experience of drivers while cycling... But I don't believe you answered my question or touched on the points I raised in your response

@Tillyard86

3 ай бұрын

Just ignore them, as long as you take up primary position at the right time and in the right way, you'll be fine.

@shaunpitt842

3 ай бұрын

​@@Tillyard86​ ignore death threats from someone driving a deadly weapon past me? Surely you understand how difficult this is. Again my point was that Ashley and many other car drivers don't acknowledge this side of it. The terror and feeling of precarity of what it's like to be a cyclist sometimes. It's not the same as being in a steel box (and potential weapon) with someone shouting at you.

@Tillyard86

3 ай бұрын

@@shaunpitt842 they are not going to do anything mate, they'd go to jail if they did. But if you genuinely feel they are a danger, I suggest you report them. There is another phrase Ash uses in his videos sometimes “I'd rather have someone like that in front of me”. So just look for a spot where you can let them pass. I'm sure Ash and many others understand that it's hard sometimes but that's life, you just have to get on with it. People driving cars probably feel similarly vulnerable when larger vehicles like trucks are behind them or in the lane next to them.