I can't help but feel like coming up with ad-hoc spellings for words as you write would have been normal way back when there wasn't a standard way to spell; just like how it is with Anglish today.

Based on studying I've done after making this video I've come to think English Futhorc users would've felt more at home with ᚫᚷ and ᛖᚷ than ᚪᛁ and ᛖᛁ COMMENTARY: 1) 2:50 I should've written "photograph" instead of "photo", so that my example would make sense. 2) ᛋ and ᚴ were variants of the same S-rune. Someone today could potentially use one for /s/ and the other for /z/, like what some users of Futhork did with ᛋ and ᛌ. 3) A while back I came up with the idea to take ᚠ, bend one of its twigs down to get ᛕ, then use that for /v/, but that felt like too much of an innovation for me. I'll leave the idea here for anyone who's more willing to innovate and who likes the idea. 4) 11:57 Actually, it's more likely that someone would read this out as [dɑɣ] and think it means "dough".

@Livinivs

3 жыл бұрын

I'm not against innovations per se, especially if they improve efficiency. However I think the reality is that since writing modern English in Runes isn't something that is supported by any large institution, we should be a bit more conservative so that anyone can look up the sounds Runes make and then understand what we are writing. A lot of languages are written in various scripts (Serbo-Croatian, Berber, etc) and actually using Futhorc for English is probably closest to the relationship between Berber and Tifinagh script. Since Tifinagh became an institutionalized script for the language in the 1980s they have been able to formalize spelling and adjust the symbols as they see fit. Unfortunately, however, there is no real body of people or modern literature using Futhorc in the same way so its difficult to claim legitimacy if innovations are too far out there. Therefore overall I have to just come out against using ᛕ for /v/ and ᛠ for /ɪ/ (instead either using ᛁ or ᛁᚻ for /ɪ/) for now. I actually kind of like ᚴ for /z/ though and I think it will make enough sense to everyone. But yeah maybe one day a larger group of people will come together and officialize a "Younger Futhorc", but as of now I would suggest sobriety.

@user-gj1np9rp4d

2 жыл бұрын

What about just turning the ᚠ rune upside down and using that for /v/? Similar to how ᛣ is an upside down version of ᛉ? The downside of that is that type rune does not exist in unicode so you will have to make a custom font for it.

10:48 Welcome to the pain of english learners.

The photograph-photagraph bit. I think it’s truer to the old rules to write your dialect phonetically. As a layman, this makes sense. Local tribes would have local dialects and write in a local cant.

@Hurlebatte

3 жыл бұрын

I don't think it's unrealistically conservative to ask writers to ask themselves what they feel the most correct-sounding pronunciation of a word is, before they settle on how to spell the word. If I remember correctly, there are inscriptions that attest to some rune-writers spelling things more conservatively than their normal speech probably was. I recall ᛅᚢᚴ being one spelling that, in some regions, outlived its corresponding pronunciation.

@Ggdivhjkjl

2 жыл бұрын

@@Hurlebatte Its common for spelling norms to lag behind pronunciation changes in every language. However, the way you've worded your rules would seem to make your 2nd rule contradict your 1st to some extent.

@Hurlebatte

2 жыл бұрын

@@Ggdivhjkjl I should've called them guidelines.

¡Yea!🤩🎉 ¡Þank þee swiþ much!🤩🎉

I think Futhork would work well for Anglish, where spelling is more consistent. The prince/prints example perfectly illustrates this. We use the spelling of the language that we borrow the word from, which creates all sorts of inconsistencies when you try to spell things phonetically.

@Hurlebatte

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah, Anglish has fewer phonemes and fewer possible combinations of phonemes than normal English, so Anglish is easier to represent. I think you mean Futhorc, though. Futhork refers to a different runic alphabet.

@almostliterally593

Жыл бұрын

ᛈᚱᛁᚾᛋ ᛈᚱᛁᚾᛏᛋ

This is great! Back when Futhorc was used, who would be writing most of the time and what would they be writing about? This way of spelling would be super dialect dependent, and already I wonder how consistent it was across different populations.

@Hurlebatte

3 жыл бұрын

Englishmen and Frisians would be the ethnic groups using Futhorc. In particular, monks, craftsmen, and kings come to mind. I think English monks got involved with runes because many (most?) of them were already literate, they had a lot of free time, and they were expected to shy away from baser forms of entertainment. Some craftsmen would've used runes so that they could do things like add names to products. A smith might put down his own name, kind of like a logo, or he could put down the name of the product's commissioner. That's probably why one sword has the name ᛒᛠᚷᚾᚩᚦ written on it. At least a few kings seem to have liked putting their names on coins, sometimes in runes, sometimes in Latin letters, sometimes in a mix of both.

@Hurlebatte

3 жыл бұрын

Oh I didn't really answer one of your questions. Sadly, Futhorc inscriptions often aren't "about" anything. Most Futhorc inscriptions are really short and do little more than name a person. There are longer inscriptions but they're not numerous, not numerous enough to start making a bunch of categories for them. You'll find memorials, a poem (Ruthwell Cross), a riddle (Frank's Casket), what appears to be an explanation of the material's origin (Brandon Antler). I set up a "Miraheze" wiki where you can explore almost all known Futhorc inscriptions. If you type "Futhorc Miraheze" into a search engine it should come up. It's not up to usual academic standards because I didn't get permission to show off the images.

@mkultra4316

3 жыл бұрын

@@Hurlebatte Thank you very much for showing the "Futhorc Miraheze" page and answering my questions, it cleared a lot of things up! Got one more question if you don't mind, are you a researcher/academic or do you do all this for fun?

@Hurlebatte

3 жыл бұрын

@@mkultra4316 I'm more of a hobbyist but I did major in history in college so I have some academic background.

This is pretty good! Although I kinda feel that Yr could be given some use. /ʊ/ is _kinda_ similar to /y/ so you could make Ur strictly for /u/ (even though it might be obsolete in the future.) I mean, when you still have Eoh even though it'll appear only in like 3 words I can think of off the top of my head (ugh, loch, Bach, but there might be more,) it just seems weird to kick out Yr but still have Eoh.

@Hurlebatte

3 жыл бұрын

I didn't have to repurpose ih to keep it, so that's why it survived despite being nearly pointless. I personally find yr ugly and don't like how it went against the "one rune one segment" style that runic had developed, so that's one reason why I don't want to repurpose it.

@user-gj1np9rp4d

3 жыл бұрын

For me it won't work. Because i pronounce "ew" as /yː/. For example i pronounce dude as /dyːd/ and dew as /dyː/. So i need ᚣ spell them out like this. ᛞᚣᛞ and ᛞᚣ .

@Hurlebatte

3 жыл бұрын

@@user-gj1np9rp4d Far out.

@user-gj1np9rp4d

3 жыл бұрын

@@Hurlebatte What do you mean by far out?

@Hurlebatte

3 жыл бұрын

@@user-gj1np9rp4d Your pronunciation is like a Californian surfer pronunciation, so I was referencing that.

Ha. You successfully click baited me. In all my studies I'd never heard of younger fuþorc. Clicked video thinking I must have missed something obscure in anglo/frisian history. Good job man.

@Hurlebatte

2 жыл бұрын

Lol, yeah, it's kind of misleading, but I don't know what else we'd call it.

@nebuchadnectarthe2nd688

2 жыл бұрын

@@Hurlebatte I think younger fuþorc is fitting. And you explained what you meant first thing.

What about using ᚢ to write /v/ at the start of the words? For example the name Victoria ᚢᛁᛣᛏᚪᚢᚱᛠᚪ. But for Anglish it's not needed because majority if not all words starting with v seem to be of french and latin origin.

@Hurlebatte

3 жыл бұрын

Seems kind of Latiny to me. I think the average Futhorc user in the past would've gone with ᚠ or at least ᚹ.

@Satin_Persona_Latina

Жыл бұрын

hey how did you manage to write in fuþorc when it's an old script?

@almostliterally593

Жыл бұрын

@@Hurlebatte ᚨᛁ᛫ᛡᚥᛋ᛫ᚡ᛫ᚠᚩᚱ᛫V

@aer0a

3 ай бұрын

There is ᚡ, which was used in Mediæval Runes for V

@user-gj1np9rp4d

3 ай бұрын

@@aer0a I know but that would be mixing different scripts which I avoid doing. Also a solution was found since then. Hurlebatte suggested bending down the lover staff of ᚠ rune to create a new rune. You end up with this shape ᛕ which resembles the letter "K".

After thinking about this for about a month still can't really get behind totally repurposing ᛠ, I think it would be better just to have an unstressed ᛁ make the /ɪ/ sound and a stressed ᛁ make the /i/ sound (or alternatively /ɪ/ could be made by ᛁᚻ since that combination at least has a precedent in modern orthography). I also think /ʊ/ and /ʌ/ are more close than /ʊ/ is with /u/, and therefore I think ᛟ should represent /ʊ/ and /ʌ/ and ᚢ should only represent /u/. Other than that great job.

@Hurlebatte

3 жыл бұрын

"can't really get behind totally repurposing ᛠ" The /æɑ/ sound is pretty far away from everything in Modern English besides maybe [eə], so only tweaking ᛠ isn't much of an option. It would have to be repurposed or set aside. "to have an unstressed ᛁ make the /ɪ/ sound and a stressed ᛁ make the /i/ sound" That would be more authentic, but also cause a lot of ambiguity. "or alternatively /ɪ/ could be made by ᛁᚻ" Hmm "I think ᛟ should represent /ʊ/ and /ʌ/" In my dialect /ʊ/ clashes with /ʌ/ many times more often than it does with /u/, so your set-up would cause more ambiguity for me.

@Livinivs

3 жыл бұрын

@@Hurlebatte Yeah honestly I would rather just get rid of ᛠ. Also was that a good or bad "Hmm" regarding ᛁᚻ ? Haha Can you give any examples of clashes between /ʊ/ and /ʌ/ ? I feel like we speak a pretty relatively similar dialect (I speak Californian) and I'm trying to think of any word that could get confused if you switched /ʊ/ and /ʌ/ around but I can't.

@Hurlebatte

3 жыл бұрын

It was a neutral hmm. Here are a few pairs for me: hood & HUD could & cud took & tuck book & buck look & luck hook & huck

@Livinivs

3 жыл бұрын

@@Hurlebatte Ok yeah interesting, not all those words are common for me to say but fair enough point. However, I feel like there is a bit more authenticity if you use ᛟ for /ʊ/ and /ʌ/ since if you started pronouncing words with /ʌ/ as /ʊ/, I think most people would still understand what you mean, it would just sound kind of like you had a foreign accent. On the other hand, if you pronounced these /ʌ/ words with a /u/ it is pretty different and I think most people actually wouldn't understand you. (I also think this would be valid for most British English as well but I can't say I'm an expert on other English accents/dialects) But yeah overall I think it just returns a bit more authenticity especially to ᚢ.

@Hurlebatte

2 жыл бұрын

@@Livinivs It was normal for spellings to vary like this, so we could just consider it a feature of Younger Futhorc. What I'd like this system to do is serve as a general outline people could build off of. I probably didn't make that clear in the video, but I hint at it.

What do you use to type these runes?

@thelivingdead1728

3 жыл бұрын

I don't know what he uses but I use Heathen Hof's New Futhark Keyboard for Windows 10.

@Hurlebatte

3 жыл бұрын

Go to r/Runology on Reddit. Click on the thread "TOOLS AND RESOURCES". Click on the first link in the thread. Scroll down the page to find a download link for a Futhorc keyboard.

@canoshizrocks

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you both for the suggestions. :)

Found the title misleading, as the system proposed in the actual video clearly pulls from other runic alphabets as well. As someone currently trying to compile and adapt runes into a practical and usable state for English, myself, I'm having to avoid phonetically awkward digraphs and to do a lot of testing to determine which similar/related sounds do or do not require distinction for immediate reading comprehension. Some of what's being proposed in this video is just as needless and irregular as standard English spelling, rather than an improvement.

@Hurlebatte

2 жыл бұрын

You must be mistaken. What in this system is from any runic alphabet other than Futhorc?

@edgepixel8467

2 жыл бұрын

@@Hurlebatte When you say Futhorc, do you mean Anglo-Saxon Runes?

@Hurlebatte

2 жыл бұрын

@@edgepixel8467 Kind of, but Futhorc also includes Frisian runes so "Anglo-Frisian runes" is more accurate.

JUST USE ICELAND LANGUAGE! IT HAS Þ IN!

@Hurlebatte

Жыл бұрын

No wynn, no win.

I almost want to donate so you can get a new mic and redo this video lmao

@Hurlebatte

Жыл бұрын

Is it just this video whose audio you dislike? Maybe I was too close to the microphone or something. I'll probably remake it eventually because there's a good chance a new inscription will be unearthed and shed some new light on spelling conventions.

@ZeekarPRIME

Жыл бұрын

@Hurlebatte it is entirely the microphone quality yes, it's very staticcy and sounds like you're speaking through tin foil Though the rest of the video is great! I don't have anything bad to say about that :)

10:10 þeir=they’re? no?

@Hurlebatte

3 жыл бұрын

Even "they're" is said like one syllable.

@aerobolt256

3 жыл бұрын

@@Hurlebatte hmm, for me I’m Southern and unstressed it’s [ðɛːɚ̯ɻʷ] or [ðɚːɻʷ], but when stressed or in super-clear speech I’d say [ˈðɛɪ̯.ʲɚɻʷ], an exact rhyme of layer

@Hurlebatte

3 жыл бұрын

@@aerobolt256 Oh, spell it as two then. I guess.

@Ggdivhjkjl

2 жыл бұрын

@@Hurlebatte There is a way variations in dialects can be taken into account while still maintaining the integrity of local pronunciations so that the vast majority of words could be spelt in a recognisably similar way regardless of dialect. However, there is too much variation across English dialects, even just within England itself, to be completely consistent when writing phonetically.

@RoyalKnightVIII

Жыл бұрын

More like ðer

ᚦᚪᚾᚳᛁᛖ᛬ᚦᛖ

@Hurlebatte

Жыл бұрын

ᛡᚩᚱ᛬ᚹᛖᛚᛣᛟᛗ

I realy love this runic system. it is easy to understand for most english speakers. that said though, when i started using it, i immediately made some changes. mostly its the same. but some letters got changed and addid. ᚧ & ᚡ were added from later runes for /θ/ and /ð/. ᚸ now meiks the /ʤ/ and ᚣ is now /ju/. below is a re write of your dog story from the end now as a limeric useing my version. :ᚧᛖᚱ·ᚹᛟᚾᛋ·ᚹᚪᛋ·ᚫ·ᛞᚩᚷ.ᚩᚢᚻ·ᛋᚩᚢ·ᛚᚪᚢᛞ. ᚻᛁᛋ·ᛒᚪᚱᛣ·ᛈᛁᛖᚱᛥ·ᚦᚱᚢ·ᚪᚾᛠ·ᛣᛚᚪᚢᛞ: ᚧᛖ·ᛣᚫᛏ·ᛗᛖᛁᛞ·ᚪ·ᛏᚱᚫᛈ.ᛒᛟᛏ·ᛁᛏ·ᚠᛖᛚ·ᚹᛁᚧ·ᚪ·ᛋᚾᚪᛈ. ᚾᚪᚹ·ᚧᛖ·ᛞᚩᚷᛋ·ᚾᚩᛁᛋ·ᛖᛣᚩᚢᛋ·ᚢᚾᛒᚫᚹᛞ: :ᚻᛖᚱᛚᛖᛒᚪᛏ:ᛄᛟᛝᚷᛖᚱ·ᚠᚢᚦᚩᚱᚳ:

If I ednote ge- back into my Englisch as y- such as in yclept, would I noten ᚣ siþen it is a clepend, oþ schall I noten ᚼ as it would what þey ynoted haven for the g in ge- (as ᚼᛖ)? Þanks

@Hurlebatte

Жыл бұрын

I think using ᚣ for that job would be weird. ᚣ doesn't have a strong link to Modern Y. If you're trying to be authentic-like, I recommend ᚷᛖ over ᛡᛖ. I wouldn't use either spelling, though. I try to spell how I speak. For what you're trying to do, I think I'd go with ᛁ (the ice rune). I think I'd write yclept as ᛁᛣᛚᛖᛈᛏ.