I would have liked the presentation of the dwarves spoken language and how it was crucial when Galadriel spoke the dwarven tongue to Gimli. this turned Gimli's resentment and fear to one that emboldened him to ask for 3 stands of her hair. Much more crucial to the story than some battle cry.

@MenoftheWest

2 жыл бұрын

That’s a great point! Galadriel’s use of the words of places as given in Khuzdul depicted a sense of friendship and understanding that opened Gimli’s heart. Great stuff!

5:56 Philological Observation: I suspect JRRT chose a runic alphabet based on straight lines because the Dwarves were predominantly workers of stone and metal, materials which greatly favor engravings with mostly straight lines. That has direct parallels in real world history - early nordic/germanic/rus, sanskrit, etc. In contrast, the Elves did most of their writing on paper/vellum/papyrus type materials, which lends itself to more fluid l, flowing, complex and nuanced scripts with lots of curves, swirls and flourishes.

@Abilliph

2 жыл бұрын

one interesting thing is that, if we compare Khuzdul to Semitic languages, Semitic people were actually the ones writing with ink and paper and therefore have more fluid scripts... while the European scripts, which Elvish scripts were based on, tended to write on stone and therefore developed a more Geometric scripts like Latin, Greek, and Nordic Runes. Interesting how Tolkien decided to switch the styles...

@MoonlightCircus

2 жыл бұрын

Yep he basically says as much in the opening notes to the Hobbit.

"And do you know what this dwarf says to that??........Ishkhaqwi ai durugnul" The master of language leaves yet another jewel behind for us to wonder about The dwarvish tongue always sounded more harsh and structured to me than most. Personally would love to hear two dwarves discuss, gossip, even argue in their language. The tales of the ages would sound very different from that point of view haha

@scottmccrea1873

2 жыл бұрын

That's in the movie. Aragorn says something like, "that wasn't very polite". Indicating that, perhaps, he knew Khuzdul?

@nana-rs8en

2 жыл бұрын

@@scottmccrea1873 maybe he could understand through transliteration rather than knowing the language. Each of Tolkien's languages are different and similar through natural interactions between the people's. The sound of "durugnul" and Elvish "Uruk" and "naur" are similar, meaning orc and fire. After reading the books and the languages in the appendices I figured Gimli may have stated something about the orc's burning the land/tree's but I could be wrong. Tolkien created it in a way of realism so its like trying to learn an ancient language like proto-Latin or Aramaic. Then again with Aragorn's travels he could have been deemed Dwarf-friend and taught some Khuzdul.

@Overlord99762

2 жыл бұрын

Pretty sure it means "I shit on you" or something like that

I've always thought the resemblance that dwarvish writing had to Norse Runes to be awesome, can't wait to learn more about them!

@vikingskuld

2 жыл бұрын

The resemble norse runes because they are. Not taking away from what Tolkien did. He was an amazing author. He just used the norse runes for the Dwarven runes.

@ragnarcrockettsson4058

2 жыл бұрын

@@vikingskuld yeah, lots of things in middle earth are very similar to Norse Mythology

@scottmccrea1873

2 жыл бұрын

Norse runes and Cyrillic as well. Some are very close to Cyrillic/Russian letters as well.

@ZzrzZ2012

2 жыл бұрын

I could read dwarven at the ages 12 and now I read old norse runes

@TrithemiusFinnegan

2 жыл бұрын

While the graphetic written script is based on Norse Runes of the Vikings, the phonetic spoken speech is based on Hebrew phonology of Semitic languages of the Israelites.

Loved the nod to Nordic runes in Tolkien’s works! Makes me miss my Legendarium class back when I was in h.s. And we learned to read, write, speak elvish

I once worked at a clinic whose head doctor basically wrote in Khuzdul. I cant really explain it better than that he didnt do curvature on any letters he wrote. His R's were closed by two right-angle lines.

@tominiowa2513

2 жыл бұрын

Maybe Christopher Tolkien should have consulted a pharmacist when he had trouble reading his father's handwriting?

I'm always amazed at how much gall and creativity goes behind expanding on the dwarvish language of Tolkien's world by media, games, etc.

Love how the tongue of Khuzdul grew gradually, with Tolkien planning out external influences and the slow growth into what it became in the Hobbit in the Third Age. And can't wait for the Fell-Beast video!

Tolkien was so absurdly genius, that he not only created so many peoples and races with their specificities and details, but even entire languages for each of them.

@amphilochusofmallus5070

2 жыл бұрын

When I try to explain that to people as an attraction to the stories, they look at me like I've lost my mind

@shadowofchaos8932

2 жыл бұрын

My favorite is the writing on the One Ring, Black Speech. He created a language for the most powerful ring on Middle Earth and then it wasn't used or spoken in the rest of the world. Created it then banned it except for Sauron.

@themydnighthour

2 жыл бұрын

I mean, the dude helped write the OED...

@Shakeythemoil

2 жыл бұрын

I always thought of the Dwarves as the Jewish peoples of this time frame . Persecuted, driven from their homes etc.

@scottmccrea1873

2 жыл бұрын

The only thing that comes close in terms of world-building is Frank Herbert's Dune books. (NOT the craptastic shyte operas his son wrote!) The same breadth of vision. An entirely fictional history thousands of years long. Herbert wasn't a linguist, so there's not nearly as much about the languages of the Duneverse - tho' there is some in the Dune Encyclopedia. I always imagine what a Tolkein/Herbert collab would have been like....

Gimli: "Certainty of death, small chance of success. What are we waiting for?"

@WheatDos

2 жыл бұрын

That's dwarvish for "YOLO!"

I do not always agree with everything...but the work that goes into each video on this channel is pure quality ♥️

Doing much better with this video - any video you wish to produce will always be welcome. Happy Thanksgiving!

It’s so crazy how many different languages Tolkien had come up with all these different languages based upon actual languages. The fact that they kept their language a secret is so interesting to me. Makes me wonder because of the deep friendship between Gimli and Legolas if Gimli ever told him his name 🤔🤔

@stevevacca6392

2 жыл бұрын

He was considered one of the best linguists of his generation, and you can see his love for language in his writings.

@JainaSoloB312

2 жыл бұрын

I think he definitely did, the only question to me is whether it was before or after reaching Valinor together

I so enjoyed this video and the sparsely known, immensely interesting subject matter.

Yoystan the wise, Yoystan the brave, Yoystan the seeker of knowledge and Yoyston the founder of truth. Long may he rein!

@MenoftheWest

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you, my friend, that’s very kind! I’m not all those things, but I certainly try to be :)

Fascinating - love the linguistic subtleties of Tolkein - thank you for sharing

I love this type of video on the languages of Middle Earth. Keep them coming.

I never seen a video like this before and I love it!

I know I’ve asked for videos on fan made art… yours is a type of fan art too… the music and visual art are also SO well done and even after two years of non stop lore channels, I still find channels I never knew existed… likewise with the music and art. I think that a video of the history of the progression of these other art forms would be nice. Digital art is ok, took computer skills and time I’m sure but the painters and sketch artists, the non professional singers and composers as well as the professional ensembles, whose work is quite prolific throughout KZread, are needing their day of recognition by their peers. We have you and others to thank for the visual art but not so with the music. Someone should do a series on these people, acknowledging their vast contributions over the many decades. Just something to throw in the hat.

language and lore I love it

Yoystan, you are so good that I cannot imagine not liking any video you choose to do!

These are some of my favorote videos! I love all of your videos though! I listen to them in the shower/school/everything

Thank you for this vid!

its great we get a indepth explanation of the languages of the full history. the only thing that i know anything about the orc languages is that the lettering is reversed from the elvish. i think. so like the charachter bolg would be glob.

In light of Semitic languages, the Khuzdul word *iglishmêk* was most likely stressed on the final syllable, due to the long /e/. The Sindarin word *angerthas* is stressed on the second syllable.

I got to say the Dwarves's dependents on strict secrecy has got to be one of the factors why they struggle so much in population and eventually faded.

I found it interesting reading the Lord of the Tings aloud to my kids that the Dwarvish and Orcish passages may look similar, but sound very very different, which I hadn’t noticed previously just reading them for myself.

Heck yeah, I like this different kind of video! Thanks for doing it.

Many thanks for great language explanation video👍

I do not like people using the new material after Christopher died - still, good video

Great stuff. I enjoyed this.

@MenoftheWest

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you so much!

I'd like to hear more of the Elven languages.

This is an interesting topic, always wanted to learn about this mysterious language

Had to wait a few days to have enough time to listen but always worth the wait ☺️

Yes, I am so excited for the video. ❤️‍🔥 Dwarves are my favourite race from Tolkien's legendarium. 🏔️

I like How Lotro expanded on Khuzdul with new names not from the books but still very faithful to the language with names like Duruz-mazal =Chamber of faces Razukh-Zahari =room of rain

Just this morning i found and listened Colm mcQuinness - Misty mountains singed in dwarven language and now evening this comes.

@Thomas.Wright

2 жыл бұрын

Now if only Wind Rose will go ahead and drop another album.

It’s really interesting how dwarves were inspired by Jewish, Norse and Celtic peoples all at once, probably why I like their cultural aesthetic the most, reminds me of my own ancestry

@tominiowa2513

2 жыл бұрын

In a 1960s BBC radio interview, Tolkien stated that some aspects of the dwarves such as being a dispersed people and fine craftmanship were inspired by the Ashkenazim.

@muhammadal-khwarizmi6933

Жыл бұрын

You got the first two parts right but the Celtic stuff was probably more a product of Poul Anderson and D&D etc. thereafter

I for one would like you to continue looking at the languages of Middle Earth.

The nod to Nordic runes is not only a nice touch, but also makes a lot of sense as Elder Futhark and Younger Futhark were mostly used for inscriptions on metal and stone, particularly runestones.

Thanks. Good stuff.

Dear Yoystan, can you do more Lotro videos please? Maybe a few let’s plays, or retracing Frodo’s path?

Dwarf teaching his kids Khazdul: Keep it secret, keep it safe

Here we got baruk khazad khazad I mennu

Great Video! But a question that concern me for quite some time now is if Khazad dum is pronounced with a "k" or "c" sound like you would spell "car" for example. or is it more pronounced like a "ch" in german or (if im not mistaken) more orientalic languages (like Gil galad poronounces it in Rings of Power episode 5 somewhre in the middle of the episoed. when he ist talking to durin)

Thanks fyi just realized i haven't received notifications on your last four videos. ( i did get one for this video) i should have checked

@Thomas.Wright

2 жыл бұрын

KZread is horrible about notifications.

@shanenolan8252

2 жыл бұрын

@@Thomas.Wright definitely

Tolkien was indeed a Master of Linguistic wasn't he? I wonder how many languages he had to utilize to invent just Khuzdul alone?

@4evrmind

Жыл бұрын

he was inspired by semitic languages like Hebrew

As someone who writes in these runes(not in perfect khuzdul a more simple rune version) and I am a Dwarf. haha. This was a Great Video Men of the West! I loved this video a lot!!!

@Thomas.Wright

2 жыл бұрын

"and I am a Dwarf." Ah, but are you digging a hole? Diggy Diggy Hole?

@VoiceoftheRings

2 жыл бұрын

@@Thomas.Wright I love the diggy diggy hole song!

@Thomas.Wright

2 жыл бұрын

@@VoiceoftheRings I love that whole album, "Wintersaga," "Drunken Dwarves," "We Were Warriors."

All the Tolkien languages please !

The irony of the Dwarves' secrecy about their language is that, in many people's minds, not learning another people's language in their country (or even in their regular company) is arguably quite rude! Some people no doubt feel they were being offensive to the Dwarves by NOT knowing their language! I would have loved to see a scene with the Dwarves, like something out of "The Thirteenth Warrior," where some brilliant guest or prisoner gradually figured out how to speak Khuzdul, just by listening closely enough, and leaving them stunned!

after studying old english for years, I wondered why I could read the moon runes as modern english, only in fuþorc. I never considered it was suppose to be common tongue. since it was not gandolf that read it aloud. I wonder why tolkien kept the old english 'hw' spelling for 'when'.

Men Of The West got a question is there a discord server of your content?

@MenoftheWest

2 жыл бұрын

There is! It's exclusive to our Patrons and Channel Members!

Dwarves (teaching their children Khuzdul): Keep it secret, keep it safe!

I woke to find this in my feed! And I was like: MORE KNOWLEDGE!!!

I don't know why, but the whole time I was thinking of a video I saw once about these deaf children who basically created their own language with hand signs in the absence of knowing how to read and write...or any formal education. The first generation of kid's language usage was simplistic with little to no grammar, but the later generations developed more complex grammar rules for themselves naturally. I wonder if it was the same for the dwarven language? Maybe it was same type of linguistic development....

ishkhaqwi ai durugnul !

It's a short language....

@ImperatorTheodosius

2 жыл бұрын

Underrated comment

Future video on the Black/Orc speech please?

I wonder, since Aulë taught them the Khuzdul language, I wonder how the Vala himself knew it? Maybe this is just a quick theory, but since we know the dwarves are the creations of Aulë, and were given life life by Eru, before that happened, maybe the Khuzdul was the language Aulë spoke to them to give them commands, or perhaps he thought it to them in that language, since they could only move from the thoughts and commands of their master. What do you think? Does that add up, or am I wrong? (I haven’t really read any of Tolkien’s books too religiously, so, maybe I am wrong, but it’s worth thinking about.)

@CAPace09

Жыл бұрын

So, Aulë created the language, so I think it tracks that it was the language he thought to them in and he thought it to them when Eru gave the dwarves life.

Nice summary, but do learn the Elvish stress rules. It is An-GERTH-as, not AN-gerth-as (the consonant cluster "rth" following the second-to-last vowel attracts the stress to that vowel).

I wonder if this language is my dear Yoystan’s love language…

I would like to learn these languages. If not The language of the Dwarves then definitely Elvish languages.

If you're wanting to do videos on Tolkien's languages, here's a great start. I've talked with this professor multiple times and he's awesome! kzread.info/dash/bejne/Z4J_ztRpprW-Y5c.html

They look exactely like the old european signs which were used before the latin and greek alphabet, these signs were used in many european countries and here in Romania they were still used by the "Plutasi" who were tree fellers, they used to cut trees in the Carpathian Mountains and tie them together with rope, making from them like a flat boat and they would transport them on big rivers to the towns far away, they used to write these old signs on each log so they knew which log was cut by whom, they used to stand on the boats and steer them with a long stick, this custom was still present until the 80's, im not sure if they still exist and is any of them still lives, i mean any man who would still know what each sign means. It is exactely the same signs like in the dwarf language.

This is perfect timing, I’m wanting to get a tattoo that says “Sons of Durin” which in 99% sure is Yanâd Durinul, but I’m not sure how to write that in Khuzdul and I want to make sure it’s correct before I do it! Does anyone have any ideas on how to write it?

@MoonlightCircus

2 жыл бұрын

I know this is a late reply, but Tolkien explains the runes in both the intro to the Hobbit and the Appendicies of the Return of the King. If you have the books you should be golden.

@wolowizard4441

2 жыл бұрын

@@MoonlightCircus that’s really annoying, I literally have most of his books on middle earth bar ROTK and the hobbit 😂😂

@wolowizard4441

2 жыл бұрын

@@MoonlightCircus If you have them, would you mind helping me out? 😁

It would be nice to know all the languages Tolkien makes.

Still confuses me a bit how several of the letters used in Khuzdul are taken straight from the Futharks or from Futhorc, but they represent completely different sounds. 😆

Why are the runes on the mouth of Saurons helmet in sindarin?

@MenoftheWest

2 жыл бұрын

Great question! Unless I'm mistaken it's probably like the Ring. It's language is Black Speech of Sauron's devising but using the written script of Tengwar.

Man, when people translate or say stuff in Khuzdul...It's so Awesome!!! Compared to Elvish that more sounds Beautiful and Musical!!! Thank Mellon, for the *Updated* knowledge of Khuzdul, Until the Fell Beasts...Marion Baggins Out...And soon leaving my hobbit hole for a Year!!!

@tominiowa2513

2 жыл бұрын

The Khuzdul names for the three peaks over Khazad-dûm, Barazinbar, Bundushathûr, and Zirakzigil sound the most like their actual character.

@marionbaggins

2 жыл бұрын

@@Enerdhil No thankfully, It's my Hobbit Hole...My comments will stay!!!

The dwarfs are a very interesting race that I wish we knew more about.

The battle cry of the dwarves is like that of the Gurkhas - ‘Aohi Gurkali’ - The Gurkhas are upon you!

What’s the best Tolkien reading order?

@whiteknightcat

Жыл бұрын

It is always best to begin ... at the beginning! Actually, if you're new to the works, I would suggest The Hobbit first, then the LOTR trilogy, then the Silmarillion. After that, you can pick and choose from your interests and curiosity.

What if Bilbo took the ring with him instead of leaving it to Frodo? Or what if Bilbo never found the ring?

Nice video, but the pronunciation of Khuzdul varied quite a bit

"Yeeesss!!!"

Pls make a video on Black Speech of Mordor . Love from India🇮🇳

@Azarya_Madness

2 жыл бұрын

Search for : Land of Shadows

So meme the dwarf got exiled for sharing too much?

👍👍

5:54 Balin from The Hobbit?

'Dûm' doesn't mean 'mansion(s)', it's not even a plural. It means "city, city-state, kingdom" whichever applies best to what it's attached to. Khazad-dûm, therefore, means "Dwarves' kingdom / kingdom of the Dwarves". Also, I have no idea why you're giving the two Us different vowel qualities (i.e. [kʌzduəɫ]) when its value is /u/ and should be pronounced [kʰuzdul]. Many people mistakenly believe that Khuzdul KH should be pronounced like Sindarin CH (i.e. [x~χ]). Khuzdul's KH, TH, and PH are not fricatives but aspirated plosives (i.e. [kʰ tʰ pʰ] not [x θ f] as the Sindarin digraphs are.

It's a secret, but I don't entirely grasp the desire to keep it a secret. I don't know what was there that the dwarves wanted to protect, or to hide, so much. I've read other stories with elements like knowledge of a True Name can give others power over that person, so they took public names, kept their real self to as few people as possible. Still, while the dwarves may do something similar, I don't see why. Tolkien almost refuses to paint elves in any light other than angelic; the first and favored of Eru Iluvatar; none of their kind sided with Sauron, or Morgoth, and apart from scant few examples, nothing bad, so I doubt they'd use some magic on the dwarves, and at first, they even got along. Humans are seemingly depicted as weak. There are magical practitioners among Men, aside from the Wizards (who aren't Men), but few of them, apart from those given might be the Dark Lord, seem particularly powerful; I can't Name any of note. I feel the dwarves just hid it because they could, and it seems odd to me.

What afterlife awaits the dwarves???

@Thomas.Wright

2 жыл бұрын

As I understand it, they go to the Halls of Aule the Smith to await the remaking of the world. They will be instrumental in the Last Battle, and then set to work to rebuilding creation when it is done.

yes, Khuzdul definitely sounds Semitic... but maybe more of Babylonian/Assyrian than like Hebrew. this despite the very Hebrew sounding battle-cry.

Nurt galikh! Im adshânzu. Im aglâb Khuzdul. Amrâlizu❤

I wonder what happened to the Eastern Elves that didn't travel west. As far as I know there's no mention of them and there's only one Elf character mentioned that maybe one of them in the Silmarillion. The really sketchy Dark elf who was a poor father and a bad husband that got thrown out from the top of the walls of Gondolin rightfully so.

@tominiowa2513

2 жыл бұрын

Sometime between the 4th and 6th Ages the elves remaining in Middle Earth fade into the invisible wood beings that are the basis of the actual legends of elves that Tolkien adapted.

@tominiowa2513

2 жыл бұрын

@@Enerdhil You are correct that elves that die from fëar consuming their bodies are required to go to the Halls of Mandos, and following the removal of Aman from the Circles of the World, are no longer able to return to Middle Earth after being re-imbodied. But there is an implied intermediate stage where elves would still be alive but only have a ghost-like visibility to men.

@tominiowa2513

2 жыл бұрын

@@Enerdhil Think of when Frodo puts on the One Ring at the Ford of Bruinen and sees the part of Glorfindel that exists in the Unseen Realm. So the shadowy figures would be elves still alive but now existing primarily in the Unseen Realm. Now as to why Bilbo does not see something similar when he is wandering around Thranduil's halls wearing the One Ring, it would be that these elves do not have a special light since they were never in Valinor during the Age of the Trees, so they look the same in both the Seen and Unseen Realms.

@tominiowa2513

2 жыл бұрын

@@Enerdhil No, the elves would still have a physical form, just as human wearers of the One Ring still have a physical form when they are invisible.

Why is Khazdul so secretive?

@Thomas.Wright

2 жыл бұрын

One possibility: the Dwarves haven't always had good relations with humans, Elves, or other races. So they feel the need to have a language that allows them to protect their secrets from outsiders, allows them to keep their own business among themselves.

I wonder if Tolkien languages would be used a thousand years from now.

The Father Christmas Letters contain a goblin alphabet, perhaps you could cover this book and language as a Christmas special?

Oh feel like Aule would have been a Klingon

Keep it secret keep it safe

Dwarish is also similar to Russian and Turkish and German.

@Kielimies

9 ай бұрын

Tolkien intended it to resemble Hebrew (or Semitic in general), while David Salo's reconstructed Movie Dwarvish went notably toward Classical Arabic morphologically with forms such as _katabrikihu_ (Glamdring/Foundations of Stone lyrics). A quote from Ardalambion article by Helge Fauskanger: "The basic structure of Khuzdul resembles that of Semitic languages, like Arabic and Hebrew. The stems from which words are derived are not by themselves pronounceable words, but consist of consonants only. Nouns, verbs, adjectives etc. are derived not only by prefixes and suffixes (if such devices are used at all), but also by inserting certain vowels between these consonants, sometimes also by doubling one of the consonants. Often the words are actually inflected by internal vowel-changes instead of adding affixes: Rukhs means "Orc", but plural "Orcs" is Rakhâs. The root consonants - the so-called radicals - remain the same, like *R-Kh-S in this case. In Khuzdul as well as in Semitic languages, there are usually three radicals in the root; several such roots are mentioned in TI:174 and RS:466: B-R-Z "red", B-N-D "head", K-B-L "silver", N-R-G "black". An example of a biconsonantal root is Z-N "dark, dim" (RS:466)."

@yaruqadishi8326

9 ай бұрын

@@Kielimies I don't hear it because I can speak Hebrew and Arabic and dwarvish doesn't sound remotely close to either or any Semitic tongue. Dwarvish is related to what I listed.

Years ago our 12 year old step son was caught passing notes in class. The teacher called us in and gave us the note she had intercepted. It was in the symbols shown on this video. I went through his room and found other notes AND a paper that showed the corresponding English letters they translated to. ( his mom was outraged that i was invading his privacy ) I started translating the things he had written and , to say the least , it was bloody disturbing. Things such as raping or killing other students ...and other students agreeing with him. His " canadian" mom was completely against bringing this to the attention of the school , but i went ahead and did so. They brought the police in and had the boy put into counseling for psychotic tendencies and behavior. The police later said i probably saved a lot of kids lives for bringing this to light ... Of coarse " mom" was outraged with me and we soon parted ways ... I was more than happy to do so... So you can see how something as amazing as Tolkien's works can be used for the purpose of evil just as Sauron did when creating evil from good.

Does TheDwarrowScholar approve?

Alep Bet Gemel Dalet Heh Waw Sayen Čhet Tet Yawd Kap Lamed Mem Nen Samečh Ayen Peh T'sad Qawp Resh Sheyn Taw

That was not so courteous

Given that the language was secret, I can only wonder why Gimli's insult to Haldir was used in the films, and how Aragorn even understood it.