Yes, the engineer mixed the album the way they wanted it to sound, but all electronics and speakers sound different, no matter how good they are. So some tweaking for personal taste or to make up for deficiencies in the recording is always needed.

@Mikexception

2 жыл бұрын

I agre. Any 'touch" to my speakers like change of even distance to near stuff makes differences which in certain cases makes new impression and requires folowing compensations. Even room door open/close although not harmfull to sound can make noticeable difference.

For some aging audiophiles who are experiencing hearing loss due to aging or damage from a high workplace noise environment over many years, having tone controls may help in some ways to “adjust” the home listening experience of favorite recordings in a way that becomes satisfying to them. In this respect it does serve a purpose.

@mikepxg6406

2 жыл бұрын

Get a good British amplifier then you will hear the highs no problem.

@scottyo64

2 жыл бұрын

@@mikepxg6406 my Corwalls do the trick

@ThinkingBetter

2 жыл бұрын

“Rejuvenation EQ” is my branding of adding a few dBs above 12kHz to recover perception of fine details. I usually run +5dB at 16kHz and the boost is near 0dB at 10kHz. Then comes the issue with the Fletcher Munson curve and anyone with a reasonable hearing should be able to notice how your music becomes narrow-band at low volumes…without compensation.

@Aswaguespack

2 жыл бұрын

@@ThinkingBetter 12kHz is where I have a big roll off in high frequency perception. My 15kHz slider on my EQ is broken 😂

@leancove9662

2 жыл бұрын

@@mikepxg6406 Right on I have a LEAK tube amp from the 60`s.

There are times when a recording lacks bass or treble and sound better with them boosted. I love to use a 32 band equalizer to tune the music just the way I want to. Is it sounding just like the studio?.. maybe not but it’s my personal taste and preference.

@JonAnderhub

2 жыл бұрын

Your use of equalization is understandable. You might want to consider moving to digital signal processing as it is more accurate and doesn't suffer from the filter width and phase shift issues of 31 band equalization.

@Bassotronics

2 жыл бұрын

@@JonAnderhub Yea I use that too. I have both the digital and hardware versions. But obviously not running at the same time. I have various audio systems and each perform differently.

@mikepxg6406

2 жыл бұрын

EQUALIZER !!!!!!!. fine if you want to destroy the fidelity of a recording.

@Bassotronics

2 жыл бұрын

@@mikepxg6406 🤣

@danrosewarne6986

2 жыл бұрын

I use some decent mid-range equipment, but my int amp has tone controls that I use all the time, mainly because I listen to underground goth/metal music that may not have had the best mixing and mastering. What’s interesting though is to hear Paul focus on full range speakers in this vid - so that might be a possible tweak area! 🙂

I Love my tone controls and still use them. I'm from the vintage years of the 50/60s. You forget that us older folks hearing may not be as good as it was when we were young so maybe we need a little help in the treble range. I have an Anthem AVM70 and the treble is slightly boosted now. Love your videos!! The Old Man!🙋🏿‍♂️

@mikepxg6406

2 жыл бұрын

I hate them I got over them in the 1980's

@JLRJ

2 жыл бұрын

@@mikepxg6406 Good for you but hate is a strong word for tone controls that you don’t have to touch!

@thisisnev

2 жыл бұрын

@@mikepxg6406 It's a pity you never got over yourself. Who made you the Hi-Fi Police? Let people enjoy music how they want to.

Tone controls have nothing to do with the quality of speakers. Tone controls are there to correct for the room, or space, a Hi Fi system is in. Most people do not have dedicated listening studios, their rooms vary in many ways acoustically, and are greatly benefited by tone controls. Hope this helps.

@briansimmons5363

2 жыл бұрын

Correct, tone controls have nothing to do with their quality, but has everything to do with their tonality. Take Klipsch with their tweeter being 2-3 dB higher than than the woofer.

Of course if you have purchased a house with the perfect listening room, and your mate accepts your perfect room treatment, and you always listen at concert level such you don't have to worry about the Fletcher Munson Curve, and your hearing is at 20 year of age performance such your treble is likely excellent to 15kHz+, you can be a happy camper...for the rest of 99% of consumers, reality is a bit different though...

@Harald_Reindl

2 жыл бұрын

Fletcher Munson Curve is a long solved problem - Yamaha calls their solution 'YPAO Volume" so you can hear a needle fall at low levels in my more or less perfect treated room - but I am not a audiophile uhm audiofool and so I throw my money where it works

@ThinkingBetter

2 жыл бұрын

@@Harald_Reindl Yes, it was solved decades ago and then some audiophile companies started to promote the idea that the sound is not "pure" if we use such feature LOL

"Recordings made in the studio are mastered and are what the producer wants it to sound. For me it's like going to a restaurant and ordering a nice meal and seasoning it at the table" This doesn't make sense. This analogy would only make sense if we assume every single speaker on this planet sounded exactly the same. In that case, yes, someone who uses bass and treble controls would be deviating from the target sound the producer created. But that's not how it works. Every different speaker from every different brand has a different tuning to the speaker. Under that person's logic, he is already 'seasoning' his sound by purchasing Hi-Fi audio. The only way to get exactly what the producer intended is to purchase the same speakers and equipment they used to master the audio, which are almost always dead-flat neutral studio monitors. Even then, there's a reason why most people aren't buying studio monitors to enjoy their music. They are boring to listen to and producers also operate under the idea that what they produce is meant to be played on a wide variety of speakers. Tone controls are imperative to achieve a truly neutral sound for a universal crowd of listeners. People who design speakers impart their own bias in the design because of their personal hearing bias. A relevant and shining example of this is PS Audio's own FR30, which according to first impressions from some, have quite elevated treble. I have no doubt that when Paul listens to the PS30's he hears a perfectly balanced speaker. However, to younger listeners with less age-related hearing loss, the PS30 is too bright. A tone control can help control these extreme frequencies which hearing loss affects the most and "rebalance" a speaker. The reverse effect can also be achieved for an older listener, who may find a speaker that was designed for a younger audience sounds too dark.

@stephenstevens6573

2 жыл бұрын

And guess what??? Some of us aren't in love with what the producer likes!

@drm9979

2 жыл бұрын

@@stephenstevens6573 exactly.

@Jamy4ya

2 жыл бұрын

Well said my friend 👍 Exactly my thought as well.

@mat.b.

2 жыл бұрын

exactly, these people have a problem with tuning the signal in the pre-amp section but have no problem with the tuning on their speakers or amp being wildly different from what the artist ever experienced

Why tone controls? Because people like me still use them to "compensate" for less than marvelous recordings or not so perfect rooms. If that causes me to get booted from the audiophile community, then so be it.

@drdelewded

2 жыл бұрын

Some people want to make the recordings sound worse too.. crazy boosted bass.. Its preference

Gotta stick an EQ in the signal path and make it smile.

@mikepxg6406

2 жыл бұрын

make it muddy

I use equalization for certain recordings. This whole notion that the final recording is as the artist wanted it is, I believe, just a convenient trope that is used to argue against tone controls and other means used to alter the response of a system. If this trope is true then why are there artists who talk about how they aren't satisfied with recording quality. Why are so many "just as the artist/engineer wanted it" recordings remastered and changed years later in both content and tonality? No, in many cases the recordings were set up tonally to work well on low quality/modest gear like car radios and old stereo gear of decades gone by and now those recordings on a quality, modern system don't sound all that great. Recordings aren't necessarily recorded the way either the artist or recording engineer wanted it, but rather the way the company or engineer needed it to sound.

@scottyo64

2 жыл бұрын

No musician that I know cares how you listen to their music as long as you enjoy it

@Mikexception

2 жыл бұрын

@@scottyo64 . I record my music and care a lot to sounding and reverberation of my voice but I align it by myself according to character of song. But it is hopeless to see what gear they use to listen

@dom3827

2 жыл бұрын

I was with professionals. And yes, you are right. Goal is to make it sound good even on shitty audio equipment. Because that is what the majority uses. No one will buy an album if it sounded shit in the radio when you listen to it the first time.

@Harald_Reindl

2 жыл бұрын

A ton of records hopefully don't sound like the artist wants it because if so the artist is sadly deaf

@Extremesam43

2 жыл бұрын

Exactly. You can adjust a bad recording and make it sound so much better.

To tune for our ear holes. RIP the old three knob jobs. Timbre, Treble and Bass.

Separate tone controls for left and right channels come in very handy for people with asymmetric hearing loss. For example, I have limited treble resolution in one ear, which can be very frustrating when listerning on headphones.

Paul, if PS Audio implemented tone controls on their pre-amps I would purchase them. Alot to be discussed, but they are a must for me. As a result it's been Mcintosh, Anthem, Black Ice Audio etc for me. I did just purchase the Phono Stellar though...would have loved to also bought the preamp to match but.......no tone controls - no sale!

@QoraxAudio

2 жыл бұрын

Go separates. Get a separate EQ or DSP.

@rob_66

2 жыл бұрын

Or make an amp with an "oldfashioned" tape monitor loop which I have on mine, so I can use a Schiit Loki Eq👍

@JanPatrickLucas

2 жыл бұрын

@@rob_66 I have the Loki, myself, but I find it introduces too much of a tonal character of it's own which degrades the quality of the components I'm using. I have always, however preferred the bulit in eq of preamps as opposed to having them bypassed.

@JanPatrickLucas

2 жыл бұрын

@@QoraxAudio I suppose one could, but I'm not a fan of that. Thanks for the suggestion though.

@rob_66

2 жыл бұрын

@@JanPatrickLucas The only thing I noticed with the Loki is a slight raise in gain with a couple of db when it's in the loop and controls are flat. No change in tonal character. But I only have a "mid fi" system. If I had a better system I would get the new Loki Max with remote control and the ability to preset tone curves. But the price.... $1499....ouch😱

I listen mostly to 50's and 60's jazz recordings, and trust me most of these recordings need some kind of equalization to make them sound good (to my ears anyway), so yes to me eq is a essential piece of gear.

@Beyondabsence

2 жыл бұрын

Agree 👍

@Mikexception

2 жыл бұрын

My thought is that in 60 ties recording were made with flat characteristic because it was crucial for maximum distance from noise. The final algnment was passed to listerers at home individualy with noise of medium at minimum. The same alignment was in studios where it was recorded so it sounded very good. With digital the noise diistance grown, the home/car gear could be equalized and whole alignemnt is done in production process But it is not and cannot be any more inyvidual

i coudlnt care less of what anyone intended.. i will listen as i want. period.

@mikepxg6406

2 жыл бұрын

Are you on your period.... Sorry.

Definitely need tone control

Haha, Even the shape of everybody's ears is different and we all register frequencies differently. So even if the producer says "This is the way it's supposed to sound" he might have recorded it differently if he had YOUR set of ears. Even the older listeners are probably missing a bit of the top end and boosting the top may get the sound closer to it's intended quality. It just seems like such snobby gate keeping BS to me...LOL

@mikepxg6406

2 жыл бұрын

HAHA mr Kuntz what a NOB LOL

@briansimmons5363

2 жыл бұрын

Interesting. Try this. Listen for awhile. Then take your fingers and bend your ear flaps towards the speakers, 90 degreees to your head. Hear the difference, you will or better.

@thisisnev

2 жыл бұрын

And speaking of snobby gatekeepers, it looks like little ​ @mikeydiablo got triggered and revealed his inner child.

Nothing wrong with tone controls - no rules, just elitists in denial because they think it's a superior attitude. If you can bypass them when you don't need them, what's the problem? I have some recordings that benefit greatly from EQ. I also have a studio where EQ is bread and butter for creativity. I don't use them if they're not needed but I'm not going to stand by and listen on a high end system to a recording mixed for AM radio and pretend everything is fine just to uphold a BS audiophile purist belief.

@jusjash

2 жыл бұрын

AnalogueGround....😅 that was well put. I and many audiophile could not make it anymore precise.✔

@teamvid9454

2 жыл бұрын

spot on

@rob_66

2 жыл бұрын

@AnalogueGround Your post should be printed and put on the wall on all companys that sell amps without tone controls😁

"The way the artist intended the recording to sound" is the MOST bullshit concept of audio. No matter how hard we try to debunk it peoples are still drawn to this illusion. 1) You WEREN'T THERE the day the recording was made. 2) You don't have the same equipment and room accoustics. 3) Artists validate their song by listening to various audio devices varying from shitty car speakers to headphones and iems since that's how the vast majority of their audience will listen to their song.

There are many audiophiles who are purchasing the Schitt equalizer that has four frequency ranges and are very happy with being able to adjust their music system and the room at the same time so that they can get a flatter frequency response for the recordings that they play. I for one am not going to get involved with this type of added circuitry because I’m happy enough with the way my system sounds but an equalizer adjusted properly can do a decent job of creating a more linear frequency response.

@stonefree1911

2 жыл бұрын

That's why I think fully defeatable EQ, like the schiit EQ's, are a nice thing to have...if you need it. Even though I do not have EQ on my main system, I do have one on my 2nd system and use it for headphones.

@stimpy1226

2 жыл бұрын

@@stonefree1911 The best part is that the Schitt unit is very affordable and is getting wonderful reviews.

@stonefree1911

2 жыл бұрын

@@stimpy1226 Schiit does a very nice job on their EQ's. FULLY defeatable circuit with no bleed thru on even their lower priced EQ. Again, don't think I'd add one to my main system, but the LOKIUS is a nice piece....

I have learned to appreciate the treble and bass control on my wife's system. We live in an apartment and I can turn down the bass and still listen with hers at night.

The Schiit Loki made all the difference in my system, specially for my analog set up.

why do we have contrast brightness color controls in our TVs.?? ...for the very same reason.

For me, tone controls are a must, as long as they can be defeated. I may not use them 90% of the time, but for certain recordings, they can make them much more listenable and enjoyable. The Schiit tone control family (Loki, Lokius and Loki Max) are excellent, by the way.

So what happens when the master recording was thin, boomy, shrill, vocal forward, or otherwise sounds like dog$h!t in some fashion, but the music is great? Or the preamp amp combo is alittle off, or… or… or. You use alittle tone control to shape the sound YOU want. I’m not a slave to the producer. I’m not beholden to their source nor the limitations of my equipment. The ability to shape all this, or room dynamics, etc… make tone controls desirable.

Yeah, ok, we already know your views on this, Paul, which are nonsense, pure and utter nonsense. As a long-time audiophile I would advise anyone buying an amp to look for one with tone controls. Their convenience is incontrovertible. Reminds me of a story I once heard about a couple building a high end home whose architect presented them with her “vision” for the house and then balked when they asked for changes, because it was not true to her original vision. They quickly showed her the door. High end televisions have substantial calibration options and actually benefit from professional calibration. Your suggestion to buy expensive full-range speakers or room acoustic panels is ridiculous. Most of us have limited options and imperfect rooms that require real world solutions. I also defy any average audiophile to discern any degradation to the sound quality when tone controls are used. 99% of people can’t.

@mikepxg6406

2 жыл бұрын

If I see tone controls then I know the design is compromised. Most British hifi got over tone controls in the early 80's.

@mpi5850

2 жыл бұрын

@@mikepxg6406 - lol, ok, if you say so. They don’t suggest any design compromise. They simply give you the choice to bypass completely, or use them as needed.

@thisisnev

2 жыл бұрын

@@mikepxg6406 Most British hifi manufacturers didn't even make it into the 80s. As for the ones that were around in the early 80s: Sugden A48 - tone controls. A&R Cambridge/Arcam - tone controls. Cambridge Audio - tone controls. Armstrong - tone controls. Nytech CTA252 - tone controls. NAD 3020 - tone controls. Creek - tone controls. Just leaves Naim and the overrated Mission/Cyrus in the purist camp, so stop talking out of your backside with this 'most' nonsense. And before you go off on a xenophobic rant - I'm British.

I love the sound of vintage speakers for the middle Vintage vinyl never had a lot of bass or trouble 😊

Your reading glasses are the optical version of tone controls...

@mikepxg6406

2 жыл бұрын

No they don't alter colour.

@thisisnev

2 жыл бұрын

@@mikepxg6406 You've played the spelling card a few times in other comments, but you'll never be a true Grammar Nazi with punctuation like that. Consider yourself owned.

Surly at your age you need some top end boost to compensate for some high frequency hearing loss. And don't call me Surly.

Having tone control is having a vote 🗳️

@mikepxg6406

2 жыл бұрын

having tone controls is putting urine in water.

@thisisnev

2 жыл бұрын

@@mikepxg6406 Your snarky comments say a lot about you. If tone controls are good enough for Luxman they're good enough for me (and my old L-114A has separate bass and treble for each channel), and they're certainly more than good enough for you and your plastic Cyrus One. (Just a guess, but you're acting like someone who talks the high-end talk to cover up his low-end reality...)

A multiband EQ can help quite a bit when compensating for older recordings or recordings that were crappy to start with. I've also found that sometimes tone control can help round off brightness in some 80s and 90s recordings where bass seems to be non-existent and high-end frequencies dominate. I've also done comparisons of the same recording played back on vinyl, CD and streaming and they all have different qualities and tonality to them. Jethro Tull's Stand Up album is an example of this. Where the original vinyl is quieter and unevenly mixed at times, the remasters are much better and require less dialing in of tone. More often than not, everything is played flat. It just depends on my mood and what I'm listening to because enjoying the music is the main point of all this.

Unfortunately, Paul's answer was very short-sighted. First and foremost Paul neglected to consider that human hearing is non-linear and varies at different volume levels. The lower the sound pressure level the lower ear's response is to low and high frequencies with lower frequencies dropping off more significantly. This is why a "loudness" feature is usually added to amplifiers to boost bass frequencies at lower listening volumes. Paul further neglects to consider that people's ears vary in frequency response from circumstance to circumstance and person to person. If a person has been exposed to loud noises at work, in traffic, or at a concert, then that person's frequency response in their ears is different than if they have spent their time in a library, or just woke up. Paul also neglects to consider that people's hearing changes with age with the average 21 year old male having lost nearly 32% of their upper-frequency response and somebody Paul's age having, on average, a 40% loss above 2 kHz and a higher percentage as the frequency increases, which is probably why Paul believes DSD sound so good. (LOL) Digital signal processing (tone controls) can help compensate for hearing, and room anomalies and should be included in "high fidelity" audio equipment.

@mikepxg6406

2 жыл бұрын

I disagree if your equipment is well balanced you will never need them.

@stephenstevens6573

2 жыл бұрын

Exactly! How can Paul be such an advocate for DSD and so against tone controls??

@JonAnderhub

2 жыл бұрын

@@mikepxg6406 It's not the equipment it's your ears and your listening environment that requires the compensation. Regardless of how "golden" you think your ears are, your personal hearing is degrading by the year. Add in changes like exposure to loud noises, ear wax level changes, ear infections, or even stuffed up sinuses, and your ear's frequency response changes. "Tone" controls can compensate for those changes.

Love this channel but I can’t survive without tone controls. Been using them since the late 60s. Also, I don’t care what the engineer wanted. It’s how I want my music to sound. Base and treble controls are all I need. I’m such an audio heathen. Lol 😀.

Paul, double advents speakers were fabulous…. I had infinity wave transmission line columns…. With a Walsh tweeter… Later I had AR9ls and they rocked big time….

I think tone controls are still pertinent in today's audio equipment because speakers, regardless if they are full range or not, all vary in their upper end tonality. Some are bright, some are warm, some neutral, and a person's preference might not be what the speaker they have is. So tonal control can help here to adjust to the listener's preference for their current speaker rather than having to buy a whole new set. I understand the argument for purity of the recording but in the end it's how the listener likes to listen, so tone controls ( and dare I say equalizers) should be present in current and future equipment.

I EQ everything. For me it's like going to a restaurant and ordering a meal and I don't like the way it tastes. It might need more or less salt, it might need more pepper, etc... So it's like that for my music. Sometimes I want a little more bass and little less treble so I mix it to how I like it and not with just tone controls, which are so limited, I use a 16 channel equalizer. How does the producer know how my room is set up acoustically? Another audiophile on KZread said that some artists listen to the master recording in their car and then give the OK to use that mix. I think it was Steve Guttenberg who said most music is mixed for listening to in the car, on headphones or on bluetooth speakers. For me when I turn on the EQ on my 2 channel home stereo it makes the music come alive. Especially for some older recordings where the mix is just horrible. All that being said I respect anyones right to not use tone controls.

It’s up to the person that buying the audio. If you can afford high end audio then don’t take another thought about it. If you can’t afford high end audio and like the tone controls or loud switch. Then enjoy. It’s up to the person taste in music and what they can afford!!

@mpi5850

2 жыл бұрын

The need for tone controls has nothing to do with the price of your components. Although cheaper components may benefit more from them, all components, regardless of price, will sometimes benefit from them.

i haven't seen much I disagree with in all the vids i have until this one. tone controls exist not to make up for bad speakers but for bad room acoustics. I, being on disability, can't afford your 30 dollar book with cd so i do not know what is in it when it come to setting up rooms to handle music better. However we do not all have 'listening rooms' in which you can 'set up' to get great sound. I for one live in an apartment and so my living room is my listening room and is also where i have the t.v. and guests along with other stuff going on so tone controls can be used to compensate for the room absorbing highs or lows or to accent the lows when playing at low volume levels as i have to do from time to time living with people directly above and beside me.

Hi Paul, I really appreciate your videos, & agree with your take on vinyl. There’s something about it, but hard to tell what exactly. If I could afford to, I’d love to try some of your gear. This discussion about tone control is fine in a perfect world. The equipment quality & room dampening should render any need for eq redundant. Except, this assumes perfect hearing from 20-20kHz. A year ago I developed tinnitus, & discovered I had developed hearing loss. It helped explain why I’s “gone off” music for a few months previously. I spent months struggling with hearing aids, graphic equaliser, AirPod Pro/Max, etc. to reduce the tinnitus & compensate for the loss when listening to music. Eventually, I replaced my stereo receiver with a multi-channel setup, so I could use the inbuilt channel equalisation, thus boosting the diminished frequencies, particularly on the side which had the most significant loss. That made life much simpler, and while the AV receiver was a lower quality than the stereo it replaced, the listening experience was more enjoyable, more relaxing. In this process I became depressed & frustrated, at one point almost giving up on my music. But, I came to some realisations during this time. Because I experienced hearing loss, I needed the best quality source I could access. Because my hearing between 1kHz & 20kHz was diminished, I needed every bit of that range from the source as possible. I might not be able to hear it as well as I could, or as “intended”, but every bit helps. As Hans Beekhuyzen points out, the range between 10kHz & 20kHz is quite small, about as much as between 20Hz & 30Hz. So, what is lost from 2kHz to 20kHz covers quite a small part of the range of musical notes, and very few notes are played above 10kHz. It’s an octave of harmonics, basically. Equalisation can help adjust for those diminished frequencies. It won’t help reproduce what the artists & engineers intended - but that’s a fantasy for those with hearing loss anyway. Actually tuning a system this way is quite a task - it took me months to get to a point where I could appreciate & enjoy music again. Hearing aids are great for offsetting my tinnitus, hearing speech, etc., but not for music. I didn’t want to shift from a stereo to AV amp, but the complexity of adding eq into the chain, the lack of tailoring & balance allowed by tone control on stereo amps/receivers gave me no choice. Ideally, there would be stereo amps/receivers available with a 10-band (or more) eq option for people with hearing difficulties. This is an issue that affects a lot of people, and many will be people who enjoy music. At one time eq was an integral part of audio systems. Yet, there is little available in today’s market outside of systems like Yamaha’s YPAO (or Denon & Marantz equivalents), and only in AV receivers.

Tone controls are not usually required in higher-end systems. But they give the customer the added benefit if they need to tweak the dynamic mix of their system bass, treble and mid-tones. I use them at times to help with room anomalies. But try to fix the room issues first, otherwise.

I agree with you Paul, buuuuuutttt. Having lived overseas for almost 2 decades and having acclimated pretty much into the culture, I can honestly say that no matter how good the chef may be or the producer may have mastered the sound that he wants, that taste or that sound may not be for everyone. And so, it is nice to be able to re-season or alter the sound more to "our liking" or preference. And there is nothing wrong with that either, just as different people are going to have different opinions than other people on given subjects. As the saying goes, "to each his own", and that's what we call "freedom of choice"! Isn't it beautiful?

Hi Paul I am wondering what is your thoughts on using DCM tf 350s for the front stage and SS , Time Prices for the wides , and CX17s for SB Given that these speakers are vintage and it took some restoring but was worth the time and work. The crossover is the heart of any speaker system old or new do you think these vintage speakers can carve out a spot in the Home Theater world because they are pleasing to the ear for music , I am using a Denon X5200W. Your thoughts would be welcome.

If you don't like tone controls, don't use them. No need to worry about or cry over other people using them. Mind your own business and you'll be much happier if things as minute as this bother you.

I'm 69 and have lost a lot of my high end so I crank up the treble so it will sound better. Everyone's hearing is different, nobody is flat.

I love balance control, they allowme to seat in different spots and have a good center imagen

@briansimmons5363

2 жыл бұрын

Totally agree. I would not own a system without balance control even though my room set up is totally symetrical.

I enjoy using tone controls and even an EQ. I like the ability to "fine tune" my setups sound the way I LIKE IT. That's part of the enjoyment of the whole thing!

I have a Schiit Loki I use because there are a lot of recordings that are sub par and I give it a tiny bit eq to make the recordings sound decent. I only use it sparingly but I'm so glad I added to my system.

I know is hard to believe for some people but we are all different that includes the author of this video, how we like listening to music. No doubt the sound engineer has manipulated the sound controls to what he thinks is the best sound that probably includes tone controls. When you think of all the permutations of sound equipment some less expensive some very expensive. To replicate the studio sound how much would I have to pay for my sound equipment. Would I need a dedicated sound room, like most people this would be impossible. For people who boast of not have tone controls are little selfish or not understanding how people like listening to music.

Funny that high end stereos back in the day, for me that’s 70’s-80’s all had tone controls.

I agree 100% with Paul. Additionally, when you have a tone control add or subtract frequencies from the sonic picture, the tone controls are doing more than that. The tone controls are adding character, coloration, and distortion to the signal. It is akin to adding an extra box to your stereo. Even if that box is left with all of its controls in the neutral position, you can hear the signal passing through that box (on a good, revealing stereo). Yet, so many of our favorite songs are equalized (tone controlled) in the studio, and it is one of the reasons why so many of our favorite songs lack realism.

In fact, most mid to high end speakers from 60s & 70s had an adjustable tweeter lever, in order to match user preferences.

I think fully defeatable tone controls are a nice thing to have, yet I doubt I would use them much. I think tone controls were more to deal with poor recordings more than poor speakers though...

Lots love the Schiit Loki, sorta wish i had one. My current speakers sound great when i start a listening session but after an hour or so, wish I could take the treble down just a tad to postpone listening fatigue.

I have a Vincent preamp specifically for this reason. Without tone control I'd probably not play half of the multiple vinyl and cd's in my collection. It's a Beautiful thing for me when needed with my Stellar 300 👍

I find most recordings lack bass. Listening to Daft Punk's 'Random Access Memories' killer bass confirms this. Increasing the bass thru a loudness button is what really worked for me for a long time. Unfortunately, that button has gone the way of the dinosaur. Adding a smidge of treble also helps greatly on most amps.

Tone control is also great if you just want to adjust the audio to the environment or situation. Sometimes I just like to listen to music on the background while having a conversation and lower certain freq so it doesn't disturb the conversation, sometimes I want to focus on the listening experience and put them all back to where they belong for a nice relaxing, or intense, listening session. But since I DJ (I'm not one, I just do it for my enjoyment), I'm used to EQing a lot.

Think of a painter working on a portrait who asked you to pass him a brush and you pass him a 4" wide brush for painting your walls. Tone controls are a crude, blunt tool when finer, accurate tools are available.

the sprout has it? the new ps audio speakers have it? what am i missing here?

Indeed. Having a high resolving system and it's sensitivities, you should expect to make tweaks constantly. Nature of our beast. If you are here watching Paul, your system is probably good enough to make these adjustments.

Gotta have 'em even though I rarely use 'em.

They are still handy when listening some original vinyl recordings ... and that's all 😊

I think I'm right in saying that Julian Vereker of Naim Audio was the first person to establish a commercial range of amplifiers without tone controls. His argument was that as any electronic component can only ever degrade an audio signal so any superfluous circuitry was better off removed entirely from the signal path if possible. At the time I remember this was often considered almost heretical (but not as controversial as Linn's insistence on quality of source - especially turntable - being more important than loudspeakers) but, with the benefit of hindsight, we can see yet another example of how yesterday's revolutionaries become today's mainstream

Some of the most desirable (and expensive) preamplifiers on the planet offer tone controls. Just one example: the D'Agostino Momentum preamplifier, which costs $43,000. And I'm guessing the folks who buy it also have speakers that cover the frequency range. It's just another tool. If you decide to push your speakers a smidge more into the corner to add some bass. Or raise your VTA for a little more air and immediacy. Or use DSP software. Or decide to use a different interconnect. Or swap tubes. Or, ..... The notion that we can get exactly what the artist and recording engineer intended, given different gear, different room dynamics, different media, different voltages from one country to the next, different AC power -- it's nonsense. The sound you are getting is absolutely not the same as the other guy who bought the same album. So if people like to mess around with sound to get what they want, I say go for it.

Buy two copies of a cd or vinyl release. They will not sound the same. Listen to the same track on Tidal and then Qobuz. They will not sound the same. Remember? That’s why you went with Qobuz Paul. A little eq adjustment can make something unlistenable into something enjoyable. I can defeat the tone controls when not needed. Tone controls are not detrimental, they are essential.

Playing LPs or CDs of the early 1980s, not only Pop music, on an up-to-date High-End System, you will often appreciate tone controls immediately.

Ya, it's because people have different tastes. I've gone from loving salt when I was younger to now loving pepper more. Think that's something, ask 10 people what they want on a hotdog, you would be shocked. YOU WILL HAVE NOTHING ON YOUR HOTDOG AND LIKE IT!! I'm sure Paul pushed my Infinity RSIIIa's at one time in his past life as being "audiophile worthy" and yet a year or two later they are no longer. What changed, is he now a more experienced audiophile? Hearing get better? As the tech got better you would think it would get cheaper and more available but it never dose. But that aside, some producers suck and even the artists themselves will tell you so. You go to a concert of that band or even a Symphony you want to feel it like you were there. Some recordings get it and other dont. So what do you do for the one's that dont? Personally I've used a 7 band EQ on everything since I was 12 years old for 40+ years. I like the 7, the 5 is not enough and many more then 7 starts getting things to complicated. I dont force myself to listen to crap just because the producer was having a bad day at the office.

I always use tone controls, but only when I'm listening at low volumes. Really handy. Also, speakers sound different. You should have the possibility to compensate (addition or subtraction).

@Harald_Reindl

2 жыл бұрын

For low volumes proper hardware has "dynamic loudness" depending on the volume

If I have meat and potatoes for dinner, I really prefer having some salt and pepper handy. Just to tweak the taste a bit to my liking, you know, for that everyday experience. Now, if I go to a 5 star restaurant, asking for salt and pepper might bring some frowns, but still for my taste, it might be needed. It's good to have that option anyway, no matter the source material.

Why not just remove the volume and source selector and the on/off switch and let Alexa decide everything?

A lot of pressings of modern music can be like getting a thin, burnt to a crisp, steak; you're gonna want to throw some A1 sauce on that bad boy.

What about DAC's that have tone controls or volume knobs, aren't they good or bad?

Considerations for room anomalies often necessary. Why spend huge sums on room treatments when tone controls suffice? Some engineers ideas of perfect sound are suspect at best, hence tone controls. Learned a lot from Bob Carver's ideas on eq.

@Harald_Reindl

2 жыл бұрын

You need room-eq AND room treatment - period

If it is ok to adjust your speakers a little to the left or a little to the right or forward or back why isn’t it ok to tweak the tone controls? I rarely do but want to have the option.

I have tone controls on my McIntosh integrated amplifier and rarely use them, but there are times when a particular song or album just needs a little adjustment. The argument that the artists or mastering engineer want you to hear the music as it was intended is ridiculous, my system and/or room isn’t the same as theirs. If I buy an expensive painting by a famous artist, should I not put a light on it because it’s not how the artist intended it to be viewed?

we need tone controls

@mikepxg6406

2 жыл бұрын

You keep them someone has to buy lofi

@bronsonosborne3962

2 жыл бұрын

@@mikepxg6406 when they mix master a album each mastering engineer uses different speakers and setups do you understand tone controls are a must in some cases

@thisisnev

2 жыл бұрын

@@mikepxg6406 And it was you, wasn't it? Stop overcompensating for your own inadequacies. It fools nobody.

I can't find (okay I didn't read them all) anyone talking about the EQ "curves" everyone used to love - the one for pop/rock (U-shaped), one for classical (inverted U), etc. Some digital audio systems still offer those settings. And I used to use them all the time - in fact, when I worked at a high-end recording studio back in the 80s, everyone (including the engineers) set their equalizers at home using those conventions. But I don't any more. Why? Because my listening goals have changed. I no longer want the music to sound some stereotypical (pun intended) way I want - I want to hear what the artists had in mind, and want as little as possible to "color" that sound. Interestingly, the longer I follow this new set of goals, the less I want to EQ anything and when I do, it sounds "forced". So if you like tone controls or EQ, go for it. The most important thing is to CARE about what you hear.

@Harald_Reindl

2 жыл бұрын

You have no clue what the artist had in mind and in most cases it didn't survive the studio mixing anyways

@jonl1034

2 жыл бұрын

@@Harald_Reindl Well, I guess I wasn't clear as to which artist's mind I was referring to. I suspect that you, like most people, would assume I was talking about the PERFORMING artist, but I meant to specify the artists who captured, mixed and mastered the recording. You're right that the performing artist might not have had any idea, or even cared, about the final product. But some performers have been deeply involved through the whole recording chain - like Steely Dan, Pink Floyd, Tom Waits, Arturo Toscanini. I read recently about John Prine (I really miss him) - that on his last record, he was so thrilled with the sound, he gave a vintage car to the engineer. So to rephrase - I want to do the best I can to reproduce what the RECORDING artists had in mind.

@Harald_Reindl

2 жыл бұрын

@@jonl1034 and I don't give a shit what the producer had in mind, many of them are obviously deaf, they had different speakers in different rooms and for the sake of god I listen to the music not them

The flatter and closer to full-range one’s room and system are, the more obvious the deficiencies of recordings mixed and mastered on less than accurate speakers become, which is a lot of music, particularly before ~25 years ago. A euphonic system or room can mask some of this, but many recordings have harsh, boosted treble, lack of bass, holes in the midrange, etc. Some remasters of wonderfully recorded jazz records have been done by aging engineers with apparently degraded hearing. The case for adjustable tone controls in a modern, flat system would be to correct for recordings. Conversely, attempting to make all recordings sound subjectively good with hardware changes and tweaks is a fool’s errand.

Why? For starters the room controls the bass response due to how long the wavelengths are. The speaker just excites the modes. A second issue is for speakers that do not exhibit constant directivity since there will be a dependence on the room via the reflections. Even speakers with controlled directivity such as most hi-fi speakers they will be impacted to some extent by rooms that are on the dead side with lots of furnishings. Unless you want the room to set the tone controls for you to whatever it sees fit, you will need some form of EQ.

i never gone to buy any integrated or receiver without bass, treble and even loudness options , my opinion !

@mikepxg6406

2 жыл бұрын

I never buy an Amplifier with tone controls its like adding mud to water.

@elmenomaronido6653

2 жыл бұрын

@@mikepxg6406 you don’t have to use it , but if you needed you have them !!!

Tone controls went away in high-end gear because companies promoted an opinion that they are very damaging to the audio fidelity. Even worse, these same companies promoted some opinion that they can't make a bypass switch without damaging the audio fidelity. Rather, I would say that great audio engineers can both make very fine tone controls or EQ and easily make a bypass switch allowing 100% unharmed audio with such switch included. Especially if such is done in the digital audio path, frankly speaking, it's quite trivial. PS Audio, please lead with a high resolution high sample rate audiophile EQ in the digital domain (avoid sample rate conversion and calculate in 64 bits to leave all doubts out, perhaps linear phase) and people can turn it off if they don't like it, but they will like it, if you design it well. Will it promote DSD? Perhaps not, but it will work with the 99% of digital content we actually use.

I like my treble up a notch and bass down a notch, as my system then sounds less boomy and more present.

Music without tone control like a food without salt and pepper.

Bass and Treble tone controls on my amp remain unused and it defaults to "direct mode" when they are off, so PS Audio's lack of tone controls on their products does not bother me. Running a 2 channel stereo fed by an HTPC with Equalizer APO and it's peaking filters with various Qs, using a mic and REW to tune it all. The room interacts with the speakers, no matter how nice they are and what has been done to treat the room. Tone controls are too blunt of an instrument, but it sounds much better and measures far more accurately post tuning via parametric EQ than set to run flat. Some recordings, particularly classic rock, which tends to be recorded "flat" and "thin" have their own presets. Won't presume to say I am right and Paul is wrong, but for my imperfect room, my ears and my system, it goes by my rules. I like it, and that is all that matters ;)

I always thought that tone controls and balance were eliminated because they added distortion to the signal. Some customers need tone controls and balance control to correct for bad performing rooms or non ideal placement. Modifying a room is far more expensive and usually not accepted by the wife/partner.

@thisisnev

2 жыл бұрын

@Douglas Blake I never cease to be amazed at how easily audiophile 'purists' take marketing spiel as gospel, and the "less is more!" fig-leaf that covered such obvious cost-cutting is a case in point. I remember when Yamaha brought out the A-320 and made a big fuss about how not having tone controls improved the signal quality. Yet the A-420 and everything above it had those 'signal-degrading' tone controls!

It comes down to speakers, room and budget, if you dont like what you have you can use EQ until you find money to upgrade

sometimes I'm better than the chef

In Dutch: Omdat ik mijn muziek wil horen op de manier waarop het voor mij het beste klinkt. Ongeacht hoe anderen erover denken, het is mijn luister ervaring 🙂In English: Because i want to listen to my music the way i like it. Not the way others think i should lik it. It all depends on my mood, which tones or instruments i want in a particular listening session. What kind of feeling i want to experience.

I cannot see my self buying hifi gear without tone control ,for me it is deal breaker.

@mikepxg6406

2 жыл бұрын

"dil" I think you mean deal........

@RanTausi

2 жыл бұрын

@@mikepxg6406 yes.

The real reason is cost cutting to increase profits returns. These tone controls parts and circuitry cost money to make and install

Now that you mention it, I have my bass and treble controls flat. And I just have a Pioneer SX-850. My neighbor stopped by the other day and commented on how good my system sounds. And I was playing my reel to reel. He asked where the sub was. I told him I don't use a sub. Like you said. Put the money into your speakers. A stereo system is no better than your speakers.

ketchup on eggs........... *_ick_*

OWW thats close to where I live in the netherlands, like 5 min from here! Hallo daar :D

Often to factor room correlation & equalization. Standing waves are horrible. Sometimes you just need a tweaky do here or there I agree usually these days it’s all flat flat but I have a few examples where you need to just a minor. Adjustment. BUT on my hifi in the exact purpose room I built for it no need to touch anything. If something sounds wrong then it is on that pressing. Even the pa audio sprout has a bass booster lol

My speakers are out of spec so I correct that with the tone controls until I get to replacing the caps. They are from the seventies.

I only listen to Vinyl and CDs. With the large amount of mainstream, garbage recordings these days, I find my Schiit Loki indispensable. If I don't need it, it can be switched out of circuit. My system is well matched, and with decent recordings is beautiful.

For the same reason there's 30 flavors of oatmeal.

I’ve stressed over this since entering the HiFi community and have even felt guilty for using tone control based on the anti tone control feedback I’ve gotten. I think I have a pretty good set up with a 450 watt amp and 40.2 Harbeth speakers yet I feel like it sounds better when I dial it in with my EQ. I like my speakers because they are flat, reach down to 34hz and I can adjust them to the type of music I am listening to. I like bass in my music but not all my music. If I got bass biased speakers they would be like that for everything I listen to. Isn’t it better to have a flat speaker and have the ability to adjust it up or down to fit your taste?

Isn't the real reason for not having tone controls is because it is cheaper to manufacture components without them for maximum profit? I've listened to systems that don't have tone controls and when properly adding eq it enhanced the overall sound.

that was just snobby. lol

Y can we have 1 Tune center Nob ?