OMG!! Paul picked up my question for the video!! God! I can't tell you how much it means to me. I'm on cloud nine! Thank you for your detailed explanation on the loudness function. I think it works great for low volume listening, especially late nights. :) Btw, just ordered the Kindle edition of 99% True! Can't wait to go home and get started. Thanks again for dedicating an episode to my question. You just made my day..month..year!! :-D God bless you! 🙏🏼

"Better to have a weapon and not need it than to need it and not have it" Christian Slater

@itisjustacomment

5 ай бұрын

better to buy quality build for what you need. A weapon with fewer parts acts and works well for the job at hand. Adding Unnecessary parts just creates a weaker tool.

At 4:30 it sounds like a squirrel is getting fried on the power lines lol

@Theupgradeguy

3 жыл бұрын

Its the Tesla Coil in their lab!

This is what I don't understand: Loudness/tone controls--bad, DSP--good. Unless you are listening to a live performance, there is no such thing as a pure signal. Do whatever you like to make it sound the way you like it.

@anonamouse5917

5 жыл бұрын

Analog loudness/tone controls cause phase shift but digital loudness/tone controls don't.

@jonathansturm4163

5 жыл бұрын

While audiophiles like to draw a line between live and studio performances, musicians don't make that fine of a distinction. In 1973 my friend Rob MacKenzie recorded _Out of the Blue_ in a studio, but had a bunch of friends in so they had an audience to play to. One of my favourite live recordings is _Waiting for Columbus_ though much of Lowell George's lead guitar was recorded after the live gig. The songs on Frank Zappa's _Waka Jawaka_ and _The Grand Wazoo_ consist of mixes drawn from recordings made at a number of live performances though most assume they were studio recordings.

@johnlebeau5471

5 жыл бұрын

@@anonamouse5917 I guess my point is that tone controls have been banished from audiophile equipment for a very long time, indicating that they are actually unnecessary. Now that we can diddle with the sound digitally, it becomes cool again. Tone controls were actually introduced to compensate for different record mastering equalizations in the pre-RIAA days. Nobody today knows that so they had become a way to make up for deficiencies in our systems. Now DSP has become the way to make up for the deficiencies in our systems, and relieving speaker designers from the arduous task of actually designing a competent loudspeaker that sounds great naturally, without the need for digital processing, just like autotune relieves singers of actually needing to be able to sing. By the way, there is such a thing as a phase compensated tone control.

@anonamouse5917

5 жыл бұрын

@@johnlebeau5471 I respectfully disagree with your first sentence. I think tone controls were banished from audiophile equipment because they were/are purists. I would agree with them somewhat if room acoustics, speakers and their placements and the frequency curve of an individuals ears did not need to be compensated for. Then we have the issue of personal preference for bass and treble, on which you and I agree. According to Paul^, DSP can achieve EQ without introducing its own artifacts. I'll have to take him at his word since I don't have the equipment to prove things one way or another. Nor can I test any phase compensated (I'm assuming analog) tone controls. I consider myself a budget audiophile, and I use loudness/EQ to get the music to align with my tastes as well as compensating for all the other variables. The purists can bite me. As for autotune, they had best use it VERY lightly if they want to sell me an album. I've heard several examples of it being used instead of a good singer, and it sounds horrible.

@johnlebeau5471

5 жыл бұрын

@@anonamouse5917 Once the RIAA curve came into standard use, the reason for tone controls was gone. They stuck around for a long time because we expected them, liked them, and our equipment was generally crappy, but they were first made to compensate for different record equalizing curves from different record companies. These differences lasted even into the early 1970's The reason for loudness control will never go away, although loudness switches have. How do we compensate? Turn up the volume. As far as the phase shift being important, most people wouldn't recognize a phase shift less than 90 degrees (myself included) if it slapped them in the ears. If your speakers are mounted on a flat front baffle, as are most, you are listening to a phase shift all the time. Unless your drivers are time-aligned, Wilson Audio comes right to mind as the current masters of this, your speakers are out of phase. DSP can indeed correct physical phase alignment problems at the cost of your signal bouncing around in a computer processor for a bit. I wonder what it does for the areas where the crossover curves overlap?

I like my adjustable loudness controls.

@hifi.david.

Ай бұрын

what amp?

This is also one of the reasons why vintage amps and receivers are still so popular and sought after. It's a shame that modern manufactures are building their product towards one type of listener and ignoring those who like to have fun with their audio equipment by adjusting the bass/treble and having a loudness button. As well, a lot of us have kids and the only time we get to listen is after they are in bed and it's not practical to listen at the levels to equal everything out. This is where a loudness button excels.

@jonathansturm4163

5 жыл бұрын

All of my day-to-day listening is FLAC files using Foobar2000. Foobar2000 includes graphic EQ, and via a plug-in, parametric EQ, so even if my amp didn't have tone controls it doesn't matter.

@wymotome

5 жыл бұрын

@@jonathansturm4163 That's your specific listening preference though. And it does not account for CD players, turntables, etc. that don't have tone controls on them. Point being, it's an option that listeners no longer have access to on some integrated amps.

@scottyo64

5 жыл бұрын

I agree!

@jonathansturm4163

5 жыл бұрын

@@wymotome Options include using the tape loop if the amp has one, or breaking out the connectors between the preamp and power amp to introduce an EQ. I like tailoring things to my own taste. We had a restaurant in Hobart called Mit Zitrone and very good it was, too. Unfortunately, the owner was a control freak and wouldn't allow salt and pepper at table, so I used to smuggle my own in. Paradoxically, on two occasions he'd added an excessive amount of salt (for my taste) to the dish I'd ordered so I stopped dining there. I couldn't figure out a way to _reduce_ the saltiness of the food.

@dougg1075

5 жыл бұрын

Yep. And these old purists are dying off so HiFi better get with it.

I have an old Denon reciever on my secondary system. This device has a variable loudness control which seems to work nice at lower volume listening level. On my main (5.2) system I do NOT have a "loudness control" but I use a 15 band EQ and play it at louder levels.

50 years ago, it was called physiological adjust. Which answers the question immediate. There was also a Diskant adjust..

Very interesting discussion Paul - thank you for posting Congratulations on your new book !

My 89 year old dad is enjoying your book. I bought it for him for father's day and it's still by his side. I'm looking forward to get it when he is done with it. 😎👍

To be honest Music is something entertain yourself so you listen to your music the way you want to! I like a Smile face EQ or a mid scoop most audiophiles hate that but it is my stereo not there's.

I like the loudness button also.

You can easily fool a group of audiophiles in a blind test to tell you they like the sound when loudness is on better. I’ve done that (used an EQ).

@GregersLife

5 жыл бұрын

You cant fool me on my stereo coz there is no loudnes and EQ. On other stereo you can fool me because first i wont know how that system sounds without and second if you have eq and loudnes mostly you have bad stereo and bad stereo sounds better with all that garbage

@dougg1075

5 жыл бұрын

Richard Rafaj and audio memory is questionable at best.

@ThinkingBetter

5 жыл бұрын

Douglas Blake The high-end audio industry has lost some serious common sense in certain areas and surely overpriced cables is such an area. #1 rule for cables is to ensure the cable is as short as possible, but the snake oil sales guy who wants to sell you expensive and longer cables won’t tell you that. Lots of systems have serious problems with basic things like jumps in the frequency response usually due to the speaker’s performance and room acoustics. Anyone saying a measurement doesn’t matter on such topic simply don’t understand audio. Many audiophiles tend to form their opinion based on a set of rules that are mostly driven by snake oil sales tactics. Often people think they hear something that they actually don’t. Only a proper blind test can confirm it.

@alexanderbelov6892

4 жыл бұрын

@@GregersLife I think audio industry promotes some cheap add-ons like cables, golden connectors, so on stuff because they can make lot of money using inexpensive materials. But this works only with audiophiles since professionals use all necessary equipment to build necessary sound on stages. Professionals invest money into EQs, mixers, any necessary DSPs to make sound from the existing speakers in the particular stage. They cannot rely that some magic cable will amaze auditory. This will not happen to 99,9999% of them, while the rest will be just aware beforehand that some special cables that cost a fortune were used. 😄

@sega62s

2 жыл бұрын

how can you fool a fool? that is the question

That looks like the couch to take long afternoon naps on.

Love my loudness control on my Marantz 2226b , use it less or not on my Marantz 1122dc and don't care for missing it on my Shanling tube-mono blocks coupled on a tube sacd - no single control and great . Love your music the way you do .

Loudness, tone controls, DSP. Absolutely!

I love em! especially the treble control, i love sizzling highs

he mentioned it , if it's in the digital only signal he would play around it like a dsp , i for people who have room issues use a mini dsp unit like the ddrc-22D i bought it and it's setup between my streamer and dac just before the analog conversion , it does wonders !!

IIR filters change phase, but they are reversible for the changed signal. E.g. if someone takes two "identical" EQs connected sequentially, then first EQ will gain the signal around 1kHz by 6dB, while second EQ will reduce the signal around 1 kHz by 6dB, the resulting signal is fully restored (to the precision the EQs can provide). FIR filters do not change phase as audiophiles want to have, but the signal cannot be restored with the other FIR filter back. Is it the same signal in such case?

One of the big selling points for me when I purchased my Vincent SV-237 MK integrated amp was that it had both a loudness switch and bass and treble controls. I don't care for pre-programmed processors with sound field settings.

I've had good luck with the loudness control on my Adcom GTP-450 preamp. It makes low volume listening much more enjoyable, but seems to taper off at higher volumes. I assume that's how it's supposed to work.

So when I plug in an Audio Note pre-amp to a 1976 Sansui 9090, I lose a fullness to the sound by a huge significant amount, but the Audio-note obviously makes a huge difference with cleaner and smoother sound. I am looking at getting tone controls, which you can get from schiit audio for about a hundred bucks.

From my experience, it depends on your speakers. If you have wimpy speakers then you'll find the loudness control helps. I used to use it all the time until I upgraded my speakers. Now I can't stand the button because it makes everything sound bloated.

@terrywho22

5 жыл бұрын

Yup, well said: bloated on the low end and sizzly on the highs. Works OK with lesser speakers as they may be rolled off, but with good speakers, its unnecessary.

@caayotee

5 жыл бұрын

I think it also differs from one brand to another. Some are aggressive, others are more subtle. I kind of like Yamaha's variable loudness. You can add just about a teeny weeny bit of loudness when listening at low volume, and it sounds fuller. I have a pair of Wharfedale Dentons and Diamond 240s. At low volumes they both sound better to my ears with the loudness function.

@FelixtheMetalcat

5 жыл бұрын

I would have to agree with that analogy completely. The minute I got much better speakers, the less I was using the loudness button.

@Mikexception

5 жыл бұрын

@@FelixtheMetalcat Rules say that with very good speakers not corrected sound should be dry - actually equal to listening in far distance. It should be like this and can be read from curves. Rectifying this problem may be provided with loudness correction. In simple case we can connect speakers which have already fixed such "like compensation" - usually by stronger bass and they are considered by all better. They will improve low volume but for more turn they will be fatiguing. This is popular case.

Love loudness and tone controls. If you done want to use it, don’t use it or switch them out of the circuit. 95% of the time I listen flat but for certain recordings or listening at low volume levels, the are a godsend.

Audiophiles hate loudness control but they love mid scoop sound.

@pekkatervala8476

3 жыл бұрын

Yes! People talking about natural and unprocessed sound love colored tone and some harmonic distortion.

My infinity SM floor standars that I have had for 30 years just love my amp with the loudness option.

I love the adjustable loudness functionality of my RME ADI-2 DAC. You can, for example, set the strength for bass and treble individually and define the point from which the loudness effect sets in, and that gradually, the lower you go with the volume. Are there other amps you can do that with?

@Harald_Reindl

2 жыл бұрын

Proper hardware like Yamaha AVRs do that automatically and even take YPAO (room EQ) into the mix hence they call their "dynamic loudness" simply "YPAO Volume" - no need for manually because the goal is a psychoacoustic flat response curve

@michaelhoffmann510

2 жыл бұрын

​@@Harald_Reindl , I'm not sure what you mean with 'automatically' - as opposed to what?

@Harald_Reindl

2 жыл бұрын

@@michaelhoffmann510 opposed to your "set the strength for bass and treble individually and define the point from which the loudness effect sets in" - there is nothing to set on proper hardware because the hardware is smarter the audiophiles

@michaelhoffmann510

2 жыл бұрын

@@Harald_Reindl , I really think that's beside the point; that's like saying 'EQ is useless because speakers'/a headphone's stock tuning is "smarter" than individual users' tastes', or that 'RAW photography is somehow improper compared to the JPGs my camera is putting out because that camera is "smarter" than the photographer'. It doesn't make much sense, sorry.

@Harald_Reindl

2 жыл бұрын

@@michaelhoffmann510 both EQ and "dynamic loudness" are for a flat full-range response - your taste comes after that with tone controls - it may make no sense for audiophiles because you all lack basics and compensate it with money - but money can''t replace brain

So true Paul. I worked in the Hi Fi trade and sometimes I would have a small amp and small speakers and they needed a boost. Yamaha take a great and slightly unique approach where they integrated and linked the loudness control to the volume control. You could also add additional bass and treble if you wanted it.

Back in the day, some amps had their tone controls on a separate circuit with a bypass switch, giving the best of both worlds. I generally don't use them or the loudness switch, but it's nice to know they're there if I want to.

@ryanray6215

5 жыл бұрын

Many new great amps still have it !

@musicman8270

5 жыл бұрын

Mine has that switch. Set bass and treble to imitate a loudness control. But only use it sparingly.

@p166mx

4 жыл бұрын

Most modern consumer amps still have that function. I tend to leave them off as I much prefer a clean signal and to get the tone right by good positioning. At low volumes though some times the loudness control does come in handy though. Tone control or not, with most cheaper amps the signal path probably isn't that clean anyway.

At low volume the loudness button makes it sound right. Crank the volume ,unclick the loudness button. You won't forget to turn it back on later cause the sound will be empty at low to mid volume. It should be automatic, but then audiophiles would never buy it.

End boosting was something I did, when my speakers used only a single extended range driver. Very strong in the mids, produced decent treble, but didn't have much timbre. also, with the small 6 inch drivers, they rolled off on the low end. I was able to boost the bass, and seal the port, to extend the low end by just under an octave. It just so happened, that the critical frequency of the treble control on the amplifier closely matched the inductive roll off of the driver, and it held the overall spectrum a little flatter than I expected, though not perfect. When I advanced into 2 and 3 way speakers, I quit boosting the high and low ends of the spectrum, because the speakers had drivers that responded well enough to all but eliminate the need for tone control. The only thing I like equalization for now, is room coloration, where I can't put the speakers where I want, but rather where they need to be. I don't have a perfect acoustic environment.

I miss the WOW knob on (usually cheaper) preamps. It not only boosted the bass but it also expanded the stereo separation (Wide) & added reverb/echo. Preset EQs on surround-sound receivers (Concert-Hall, Auditorium, Flat, etc.) killed off the WOW feature.

LOVE the loudness control on my 1965 Daynaco PAS 2 preamp. I wonder if there was a way to connect a SPROUT to it ? Hmmmmmmmmm ..... It is always on and I don't fool with it as it adds more of a low and mid presence rather then high frequencies and the Klipschorns sound very smooth with the 'enhancement'... Loudness WILL roll off just past 12 0'clock if you can stand the volume via a VERY sensitive speaker ((O;

In my main system, no tone or loudness, like it that way. In my BR system tone and variable loudness from the Mac 4100, both get used.

The first amp I bought in 1975 had a loudness control and I've loved them. Sadly the last couple I have bought don't have them. I just bump up the sub a little bit.

Paul, This is Brian Kim Keenan. Your answer is absolutely correct. Thanks again for an honest and straight forward reply.

Gotta love that contact noise at 4:28

@ianyates7742

5 жыл бұрын

Douglas Blake it was shaking almost all the way through more noticeable in the back ground

@ianyates7742

5 жыл бұрын

Douglas Blake just a lot it could have concerns about the recording studio to also the equipment to build a measure amplifiers dac’s et cetera that BSPs audio make

Even considering myself as a "purist", I also know that recordings are not always consistent on the EQ side.

Nice couch Paul! Can I ask where you got it?

Thank you paul for taking time away from a gorgeous bolder hike to come talk to us audio nuts 😀 as I went away from receivers and tone controls into separates I thought I would miss them. Nope. Now the system sounds good at low and loud levels and never missed them. When you get into the higher end stuff you don't get tone controls usually anyways. Just let's the speakers produce what's on the source 😀

I LOVE the variable loudness control on my McIntosh C32 preamp, and I use it whenever I’m listening below 45db. I had a Yamaha AS801 for about 2 weeks and returned it because their loudness control also messes with the volume. I’ll make my own choices, thank you.

there are or were two types of loudness controls a switch that boost the low and high frequencies at all volume control settings or one that gives more effect at usually low to half way up setting of the control so if the input signal level is high the control setting will be low giving move loudness effect rather than a low signal input turning the volume up higher will have less loudness in the second design case just a point here

I might not use loudness controls, but I do use DSP... Accuphase DG-68.. can't go back to the sound before!

Hi, about this topic. Yamaha address different the loudness control. Can you comment something about how Yamaha manage the loudness feature? . Thank you.

@caayotee

5 жыл бұрын

If you're talking about Yamaha's variable loudness, I know it can be confusing when you're new to it. Basically, you first set the volume dial to a comfortable listening level, like at night, when you do not want to disturb anyone. Then you adjust the loudness control to a level where you feel the bass and treble are just about adequate for that volume level. If you leave the loudness on 'flat', the amp may sound tiny at low volume. So yeah, first set the volume dial, then use your ears to set the variable loudness to what sounds best to you.

@MrHRScrc

5 жыл бұрын

@@caayotee Thank you very much.

@caayotee

5 жыл бұрын

@@MrHRScrc No problem, bro.

Choice is always a good thing,i have a PS Audio Sprout 100 and it has a bass boost since i upgraded my speakers (Kef R300) i leave it flat.

Oh you do them on one day. I always wondered why short questions would sometimes take 2 pages lol

If an amplifier don't have tone controls it don't get bought!

@kencur9690

3 жыл бұрын

Ain’t that the truth, my grammatically-challenged friend!

@cp070476

3 жыл бұрын

@@kencur9690 Challenged?

I read down the comments a bit and was surprised not to see this argument, and that you didn't mention it: the reason I don't want to use tone controls, loudness, EQ, is because I respect the artists who put it together, who sat in a studio and said, "THIS is the result of our hard work and the way we think it should sound." For me, this is the "purity" for which audiophiles invest a lot of effort and money, not that we want to have ultimate control to create some objective "killer" sound. But I fully agree with you that if what someone wants is to create what they consider a "killer" sound, that's perfectly fine. What's interesting is that I used to do a lot of EQ to get the killer sound, but once I started to prioritize the artists' ears, I learned that THEIR killer sound is better than what mine was.

Loudness controls are a must as is an Equalizer so we can "UNDO" the hocus pocus that the sound engineer has imposed on us. I guess I'm not technically an audiophile because I'm still waiting for my 1980s Harmon Kardon 800 series to stop working before waste money on somthing new But I love my Audio controls so I may get music to sound the way I like!!!!! Sound is subjective and because of the engineering to the music

Paul is very intensified with the shaking today

Why are your videos shaking as of late?

@ianyates7742

5 жыл бұрын

thegrimyeaper your right they are just thought to let you know it’s not just you that ca see it

@Quetzalcoatl0

5 жыл бұрын

Probably the AC is blowing on the camera, and the tripod is one of the cheap ones, resulting in shaking. He also records all the videos in 1 day, so even if he noticed it, the videos are already recorded.

I like the sofa :) what brand is that?

Excellent real world answer. Thank you.

do u have it on cd?

I absolutely appreciate the prsgmatic answer. Yes many audiophile zelots would've dogmatically stated "absolutely no other controls". Clearly not everyone is in the same environment, budget, or even "ear frequency range".

I use Denon AVR's direct option always with music. Turn up the volume a bit and you'll get bass.

I just recently discovered that most systems sound way better when turned up to the volume that the speakers were designed to do best. At that level, whatever it happens to be, usually quite loud, most systems do not benefit from the use of the loudness button or dial. However, I really don't like to listen that loud. At the levels I enjoy, a loudness adjustment is crucial to bring the frequency response into balance. At 2:22 Paul says the bass and treble don't diminish relative to the middle frequencies, but the ear perceives it that way. I just want to take a different approach to the way that can be said: At low volumes the bass and treble fall away more quickly than the mids, even though the relative electronic signal and relative sound pressure levels do not. Equal bass, mid and treble at low volumes have different ratios of sound pressure than they do at higher volumes. I think it's important to note that in real life we don't talk about it that way at all. At low volumes we don't perceive musical instruments to lack bass because when music is played softly by a musician they adjust the volumes of lower notes according to their own hearing, not according to air pressure. I believe it is misleading to refer to equal levels of electronic signal as being equal levels of sound. It's not. Equal levels of sound, as our ears perceive it, is not a straight one to one ratio for all frequencies. Are our ears at fault? Of course not. We just need to realize that maintaining the same SPL ratios at all volumes in a reproduction system is NOT accurate. Loudness adjustment to the signal corrects for that inaccuracy and if it matches the Fletcher-Munson Curve it could be said that it MORE accurate.

I have a Yamaha IGA and the loudness control is different because it trims the volume down, so turning it up past a comfortable listening level and trim down to conversation level actually makes people stop talking and listen

My HK 730 and Fisher 400 both have loudness controls. My Rogue audio Sphinx V2 does not. The Rogue also does not have a treble or bass adjustment, and the sound i get, cannot be tweaked. At any rate, i bought the recapped Fisher 400 tube amp for peanuts, and love the sound a 1000 times better than the other receivers, integrated amps i own. And if it needs bass i turn it up a few notches!!

I have a heavily modified Sansui C-1000 with high end internal components but my favorite thing is the variable loudness control +/- 6db. I keep bass and treble flat with loudness +1-3db depending on music type.

@epi2045

5 жыл бұрын

Vuss toppy Sansui was one of my first “rack” systems. I hope Sansui comes back someday. It’s too bad that in the late 80s and 90s, Sansui went down the wrong road. I had a Sansui amp that had a parametric equalizer where the controls were in a X and Y graph layout. Funny thing... there was also a separate 16 channel equalizer too.

@dougg1075

5 жыл бұрын

Heck my Pioneer SX 1250 has bypass with four tone controls and loudness button. Not to mention sub filter and high filter. God I love that thing:)

@epi2045

5 жыл бұрын

Doug G I do miss having a subsonic filter.

@vusstoppyv4612

5 жыл бұрын

@@dougg1075 MiniDSP and Dayton Audio DSP408 are pretty good for hi and low pass filters on the cheap but may color the sound then again I'm not a purest just a hobbyist

@caayotee

5 жыл бұрын

@@epi2045 Sansui brand was destroyed in the 90s by selling cheap chinese made TVs and music systems under the brand. The damage was so bad that even today, the average blokes remember Sansui as a el-cheapo electronics brand of the 90s. They have no idea, it used to be one of the most sought after brands for high quality amplifiers, speakers etc in 60s-80s.

I think that people who's questions were good enough for Paul's video posts should get a free copy of his book

That's me, lol. Always preferred amps with no bass, terrible, or loud control, etc. The more controls, the greater the loss in quality. A good amp is set up perfectly from the get-go, and one choice speaker is for the amp and room. This is why we love power amps, off and on, and that's it. Nice direct path for the signal

i call it a Yamahahaha. so glad you recorded todays session at that coffee table... i am not familiar with HiFi+. please and thank you.

I agree, try it and see if it is better. Ideally to get the optimal sound it should simply not be there. But try and see. It does what most things in the HIFI world do at the lower levels to attain a better sound: compensating.

The one issue I have with loudness controls are that they should have an adjustable curve too mach the efficiency of the speakers.

The loudness control on the RME ADI-2 DAC is adaptive depending on volume and user preference. "The ADI-2 DAC offers Loudness for the analog stereo outputs, and probably is the first time that Loudness works as intended. The user can decide how much maximum gain in Bass and Treble should occur at lower volume settings. The user also sets the Low Vol Ref-erence, where maximum gain is achieved. After extensive tests a 20 dB range has been de-fined as range for maximum gain to no gain while increasing volume. That seemed to be the perfect definition of the range that needs to be addressed by Loudness. Here is an example on how it works: the user’s typical lowest level listening volume is at -35 dB at the unit. This value is now set by the user as Low Vol Ref in the Loudness menu. Then Bass and Treble Gain can be set between 0 and +10 dB. Default is +7 dB for both. Increasing the volume by turning the Volume knob causes the gain in Bass and Treble to be lowered smoothly over a range of 20 dB. So when Volume is set to -15 dB, the music is not only quite loud, but Loudness’ Bass and Treble are then at 0 dB gain." www.rme-audio.de/download/adi2dac_e.pdf

I've bought quite a lot of audio equipment and whilst I usually don't use loudness controls, I would never by an amp without bass and treble controls. The amplifier manufacturer has no idea how I like my music to sound.

@theaudiophilebarista2424

5 жыл бұрын

I do not disagree, but maybe the designer does not want people to change what he thinks a amplifier should sound like. If you don’t like his amp you are not the correct costumer. Just a thought 😀 Personally I like my amps without tone controls.

@f430ferrari5

4 жыл бұрын

@Brian Wakem. I’m the opposite. I would never buy an “amp” that has bass and treble controls because I don’t think they belong on an amplifier. I don’t necessarily mind if my “pre-amp” had bass and treble controls. The system in the family room has a pre-amp bass and treble and a loudness button but my system in the living room doesn’t have bass and treble at all.

After reading most of the book I kind of wish the studio was Named B20

Hi Paul I think your camera is starting to develop a fault the picture is flickering and there was interference on the sound at on point

@TexasScout

5 жыл бұрын

I thought I was going nutz myself.

@ianyates7742

5 жыл бұрын

TexasScout Noneofyourbusiness no your quite sane 😜

I have not used a loudness button in 40 years. Oh no, the deciding trait of an Audiophile!

I don’t. I love the one on my Harmon Kardon 380I reciever. It does add fullness at low volumes. I also like the fact that it has a tape loop, so I can EQ my own recordings. I just wish I had a cassette deck for my car. I used to make copies of my CD’s and eq them so that I didn’t lose anything on playback. But when the volume is turned, like Paul said, you should have the same sound quality when you’re playing music at low volumes with the loudness. Sometimes the speakers your using might be lacking and loudness controls make up for what your speakers can reproduce.

I have a vintage Yamaha A700 with loudness. I set the loudness to zero and then set the volume to the highest listening level I want. From there I just use the loudness control to reduce volume to an appropriate level, say background music during dinner etc. I enjoy retaining the perceived tonal balance it provides. Perhaps I'm not a purist, just a lover of music.

Some of us don't. I listen at low volumes often and that is where Loudness shines. I wish everything had it, but also had a full tone stack bypass.

Paul, it's always great to get a new video from you, but in this one, the camera seems really shaky.

@caayotee

5 жыл бұрын

This is barely shaky, bruh. Wait till you watch Z reviews/ZeosPantera videos. That guy does great hifi gear reviews and has a large fan following on YT as well as on Reddit, but his head mount camera recording style is awful and drives me nuts. I have to literally scroll down to the comment section and just listen, or else it makes me dizzy. Stubborn as he is, he doesn't care if it makes some of his viewers motion-sick. But yeah, he's good with his stuff, so I tolerate him.

@gamhacked

5 жыл бұрын

Caayotee been watching zeos for years, so I’m used to his style and expect it. I also think his style is unique and part of the charm of his (very rough-around-the-edges) videos. But when you expect a steady shot and get some weird wobble throughout, you’re more likely to be bothered by it.

I have mine set at around 4:00 if you think of dial as a clock face on my yamaha

🧐 …IN GENERAL, I THINK AUDIOPHILES PROBABLY PREFER BUILDING THE SPEAKER SYSTEM UP SO THAT IT ULTIMATELY EMITS THE DESIRED SOUND (MUCH MORE NATURALLY). - I KNOW THAT FOR ME, TONE CONTROLS AND OTHER ‘ADJUSTMENTS’ ON THE AMPLIFIER ARE THOUGHT OF AS ‘WORK AROUNDS’ TO MAKE UP FOR ANY SHORTCOMINGS THE SPEAKERS MAY HAVE…

Not really loudness, but optimal for me is to have basic bass/treble controls with a bypass switch to allow unmolested audio when desired. Most sound fine when flat on my system, but some recordings are just awful, so a tweak to the bass/treble helps make the experience more enjoyable.

Great answer of good question

Would be good to also explain a loudness control is simply a basic equalizer for the masses. You can buy say a basic 5-band EQ and play with that relative to overall amplitude, but harder to adjust than one simple button or knob like on an older stereo amp. That said, while to F-M curves are good to understand overall, they were an averaging of many individual subjects studied, and any one person's F-M curve can be somewhat different from another's. So the loudness adjustment that would make the music seem flat for you may be different than for someone else. Also, as people age, the HF hearing degrades so maybe boosting the treble further helps.

4:30 İf you sit there and open your arms you can be a good radio antenna. Then use your head for fine tuning.

I like tone controls because not all recordings are engineered the same,so you can tweak the sound if need be,also i am 50 years old and my ears are not what they use to be,lol......my 3 cents anyways!!!

More EQ to the people! 👊🏻

*I wouldn't say 'hate' - a good setup doesn't need them, my Meridian 201 preamp doesn't have anything, no bass, treble, balance, loudness... no need*

The Yamaha variable loudness, the best!!

Many recorded songs I hear don’t need loudness control correction. But, there’s a few that sound better with controls. I guess we (audiophiles) expect perfection.

Audiophiles , how can you enjoy your very expensive music at lower volumes ? I guess you must always listening at high volumes . I like to listen to my music very late night at very low volumes, and I can really enjoy it especially with the great glass of champagne or wine . Without waking up my nice neighbours :-) . This the reason I am not interested in any equipment without tone controls .

@poserwanabe

5 жыл бұрын

Exactly right, thank you

@dougg1075

5 жыл бұрын

Yep

@poserwanabe

5 жыл бұрын

@Larry Niles usually with Mt Dew..... and some weeeeeeeeed !! 😆🤣😂😆😂🤣

@caayotee

5 жыл бұрын

@Larry Niles You prefer to listen to it loud, so you do not need tone controls/loudness. This is true for everyone who play music at normal to moderately loud volume levels. But some people like us only get some 'me' time at night when everyone else is asleep. You cannot play at normal volumes, let alone full blast without the cops showing up or the wife leaving you. And that's when you need tone controls, because the bass and treble take a hit at low volume levels, making your music sound tiny and bland. The loudness adds just about enough oomph and sizzle to the music to make it sound good to your ears.

@f430ferrari5

4 жыл бұрын

@Ryan Ray. Dude. You have a car in your profile pic. You must be into “performance” vehicles? Do you drive 0-40 mph in a performance vehicle? I don’t think so. So why would you listen to “expensive” equipment at such lower volumes. This is why tone control loudness button isn’t needed. If I’m in the mood to listen to my high end system then that’s in the living room area for me and I’m going to enjoy it at higher mid listening levels. If I’m listening late at night then heck my iPhone is good enough. Or I listen to my system in the family room which has a loudness button. Also if I’m simply going from point a to b there is no point in driving the Ferrari. I take out the daily driver.

What about equalizers?

Proton D540...loudnes+ bass boost + tone controls...a fantastic beast...

do the loudness emphasis curves roll off as the volume increases?

@chrisvinicombe9947

5 жыл бұрын

Depends on the amplifier in question. Some do some don't.

@caayotee

5 жыл бұрын

Ideally it should. If it doesn't, donate it to the nearest church or charity.

It's not the loudness control that I hate, it's the implementation in specific amplifiers that I don't like, as all of the ones that I've tried seem to have an added deadness to the sound when loudness is engaged, yet I've heard some bluetooth speakers that implement it perfectly.

@Mikexception

5 жыл бұрын

This deadness is caused by specific sound of speakers. Speakers for use with loudness should have full middle (like bluetooth which use one midrange speaker without heavy bass box) which normally without loudness presents dry sounding. Due to usually not used with loudness speakers are designed to sound "quasi loudness". Then adding correction results in unacceptable hole in middle. All this is required to maintain unusual precision.

Audiophiles developed also their own class of sounding called audio sound. It is reach with all heard nuances which are absent in normal life and can be perceived only with really high class audio gear. . Adopting loudness control things may get very friendly and in my opinion better than audio class sound.Not details but whole complex sound may be astonishing. . But the conditions covering all system are very tough and hardly may be met in standard unit.

So that means equalizer controls are out too?

It depends on the gear. I like the option.

Also... whatever happened to those spectrum analyzer displays found in equalizers in the 80s? I miss the eye candy.

@PooNinja

5 жыл бұрын

oh yes the 3 colour green yellow red level indicator LED's a plenty :D

@epi2045

5 жыл бұрын

Poo Ninja Glad I’m not the only one.

@thisisnev

5 жыл бұрын

Some JVC and Akai cassette decks had them, too.

@jonathansturm4163

5 жыл бұрын

@Douglas Blake "This item does not ship to Franklin, Australia." That's Amazon these days... The auction I recently won for a pair of Stax earspeakers were being sold by a chap in Texas. He really cracked the shits because I live in Australia and it took weeks of negotiation and pressure from fleabay before he finally shipped them to me.

@dougg1075

5 жыл бұрын

Absolutely.

Wow I have never heard that audiophiles hate the loudness control and I know one or two of them. I never realized. I have the control off when listening at normal levels but once the gain is set. If I need to turn the volume down for, I just do that with the loudness control. That's what it's for after all. Who cares if it's all timywimy phasywasy. It's at low background subliminal atmosphere levels and no ones really listening to it. They are listening to each other now as it should be. The control just helps it do it's subliminal thing more effectively by preserving rich tonality. What's to hate about that?

A loudness control is essential for listening to music at neighbor friendly volumes, especially in apartments and duplexes. It is not needed when listening at higher volumes.

@jonathansturm4163

5 жыл бұрын

What's often not appreciated is that some treble and bass _cut_ is called for at high volumes if you want to maintain equal loudness throughout the audible spectrum.

@james-xf1ox

5 жыл бұрын

Mine sounds fine on low volume without loudness but my speakers are good at bass

@Mikexception

5 жыл бұрын

Loudness correction at levels turned above 100dB works like switched off. But it is due to limited capacity of preamp and it is a bit disadvantage - usually it is perceived like unnatural softening in compare to low levels to which is designed . It is worthy to notice that loudness curve is never complete flat - even at 120dB. And at low levels lowest frequencies require incredible over 40 dB correction No any known to me amplifier can deliver it.

@james-xf1ox

5 жыл бұрын

@@Mikexception I suppose it depends how low your listening volume, I'd use headphones if I had to listen so quiet

@Mikexception

5 жыл бұрын

@@james-xf1ox I use headphones in opposite case - when I want to check recording loud and I do not want to disturb neighbours.But it never is satisfactory as speakers with loudness .They make me tired quickly. May be if I would buy much more expensive headphones but I lost already too much for many of them

I don't use loudness or tone controls but only cos it sounds better without, I used to use them on an old marantz cos it did sound better

@caayotee

5 жыл бұрын

Yeah, the Marantz loudness function is some kind of magic. It instantly makes the sound so much more warm and lively without adding excessive bass or treble. It's just about right without going over the top.

@james-xf1ox

5 жыл бұрын

@@caayotee my amp now is on source direct and it just sounds right to me, but I don't care if someone wants to use tone controls and loudness and I don't know why anyone would

@caayotee

5 жыл бұрын

@@james-xf1ox Yes, my Marantz stays on Source Direct too most of the time. But I do use the loudness toggle at night when I do not want to disturb anyone. I guess, it's just good to have that option. :)

Yamaha, Dennon and I believe two more vintage brands also had the variable loudness control. Correct me if I'm wrong but the 60's MACINTOSH were the innovators of the variable loudness control. Pure audiophiles don't want to monkey around with their sound systems, well think again. There is a big trend with purirsts in trying different tubes in obtaining their best personal sound quality. This can take years of trying!!!

'Ole Audiophile to Paul & his listeners: NO, why hate a control because its misunderstood & misused by many of those that own them? That's rash. It works perfect for what it's designed for, low volume levels one wants to accentuate the bass on. Nothing else and most certainly NOT for cranking as it's most often misused! thanx Paul.

@davidlane1169

6 ай бұрын

The pic of the control panel is a good example of your average stereo pre-amp. Note the lack of a loudness control. Purists ragged engineers until they designed it right off most units. Loudness & Tone are two different things. Loudness is more like volume adjustment at the extreme ends of your dynamics. Why this & tone controls get lumped in as bothersome to the purists is...our memories. Say one turns on the loudness. Are you going to remember to turn it back off at volume increase? Most of us don't. This is why tone controls are frowned upon as well. thanx

Also, for real world apartment dwellers and A.S.T.M. certified night owls who prefer speakers to headphones, for the sake of our leases, listening at the ideal volume level is frequently not an option. My sweet little British integrated amp (of a certain age) has bass and treble controls but not a Fletcher Munson loudness control. A little judicious turning of the knobs (remember those?) does little harm compared to the benefits. And for purists, there is a switch that totally bypasses the tone controls plus the balance knob. If this still bothers you, you have better ears than mine. None-the-less: =//=OldDudesStillRock