I rather like the way High End Japanese amplifiers have tone controls and analogue VU meters. It’s just more fun! And a loudness button for low level listening.

@marcse7en

3 жыл бұрын

I agree, and that's EXACTLY what I have! (Read my comment)

@Rendraco79

3 жыл бұрын

I COMPLETELY AGREE!!!

@peterr.7429

3 жыл бұрын

Japanese hi end amps and all other components are sooooo much better then anything else out there it’s not even comparable.

@savvassidiropoulos5952

3 жыл бұрын

A few decades ago, Technics brought out a rack mounted, pro-looking series of units, the 90xx series. There was a preamp, loaded with input options (3x phono, 3x tape loops), but no tone controls. No loudness. No hi-cut or "rumble" filter. Then there was an active parametric equalizer with 5 bands per channel. And a dual mono power amplifier that could be bridged. Some people purchased two of those. These had no VU meters. And therefore, there was a nice VU meter unit, configurable to be driven with line level signal or from the power amp, with adjustments for load impedance. The parametric equalizer is 10x much more useful than a simple tone control system. Even a more advanced one with selectable center frequency. And the VU meter unit seems to be a gross exaggeration of what it needed to be. In most cases, a simple circuit with 3-4 transistors per channel or an op-amp is all that is needed. But no, the SH-9020 is much more complex than that. Now, if you want fun, it's hard to beat this configuration. OTOH, I would agree that a proper tone control section with 3-4 configurable center frequencies is hardly difficult to make. It can be by-passed for when its not needed but I don't agree with the approach of not having one.

@jasonlsimmons

3 жыл бұрын

Me too! I love my Luxman integrateds and use the tone controls!

PS Audio knows that every one has the same listening room with the exact same acoustics, so there is no need for tone controls.

@micky1234ist

3 жыл бұрын

Nice way of answering PS AUDIO. And Paul knows the % of people that uses tone control

@jordantewari

3 жыл бұрын

@@micky1234ist yea Paul knows it all. He and PS Audio did a nation wide poll remember. Plus they are soooo expensive right that no respected audio company uses them. Duh.

@jordantewari

3 жыл бұрын

@Mr Do What are you trying to say

@adamkijko4341

3 жыл бұрын

@@_DeadEnd_ ok quick auestion my ears probably are normal but if someboody fire up the motocycle me are 20 metrer away but is so painfulky to me hearing it is it illnes or fucked up or somthing with my perception ?

@Darrylizer1

3 жыл бұрын

Deal breaker for me.

But I'm not buying Ps Audio to put in your house Paul. Shouldn't the person spending thousands have that option?

@jordantewari

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you.

@ThinkingBetter

3 жыл бұрын

@@jordantewari It's a fallacy within high-end audio that a few dB of carefully applied corrective EQ is destructive. Rather it can do really huge improvements in some cases e.g. bass issues due to room acoustics or high treble compensation due to hearing loss. Ironically, mostly these "purist" people have no issue with using the insane 40dB RIAA EQ in their phono amp LOL. Do a blind-test with these people with an EQ added to compensate for some audio-issue and an A/B test, and they will tell you the sound with EQ is better. The vast majority of consumers have a listening room that is also a living room with other furniture and a spouse that also has a say of what the room looks like and what is in it.

@rigorhead01

3 жыл бұрын

@@ThinkingBetter spot on. I can only have white speakers because of the spouse lol

@ThinkingBetter

3 жыл бұрын

@Mr Do Well, tone controls limited to a bass and treble control aren’t much usable in compensating for hearing loss as the treble control usually is operating at too low frequency. But an EQ can be. I like to add +4dB at 16kHz when possible. Our hearing is like speakers having a frequency response and it’s not like you suddenly can’t hear any certain high frequency anymore but more of a gradual drop. So you might have a -4dB at 16kHz today and in 5 years later it might be -8 dB. Usually your “hearing age control” is in fact the 16kHz band of an EQ.

@ThinkingBetter

3 жыл бұрын

@@RaveyDavey The loss in the treble by age is like a low pass filtering effect with the filter frequency dropping by age and since it’s not a total sudden drop at a particular frequency you can EQ against it to some extend.

Yeah, time to get a parametric EQ. There are plenty of great products out there that you can add in. Most tone controls have extremely limited bandwidths anyway. But imagine all of the circuits that are packed into a half-step octave equalizer and then imagine having to pack that into a preamp. I imagine that all of the many factors of getting the circuit right, reliable, and quiet are challenging enough. Most preamps attempt to stay as pure and neutral as possible. Adding tone controls adds resistance. So it becomes counterproductive. But to do it well on a high-end product level is why Mark Levinson's Cello Pallette units sell for thousands of $$ in the used market. They're expensive to build and get right. It's like getting a Ferrari and asking for a new intake system to radically improve fuel economy without sacrificing horsepower.

@blekenbleu

3 жыл бұрын

Yes! It is unlikely that all music recordings one owns have perfect EQ; many of mine certainly do not..

@ilovecops5499

3 жыл бұрын

PUILLTEC PARAMERTIC EQUALERZ IS ABOUYT $3000, DOLLARE BRANDE new. I cant afford it. The copsy form CHIONA IS A TOTAL PIEL OF GARABGE IT DOES BASICLALY NOTHGINE. IT AM MADE IN CHINA THEY ARE KING KONGE SIZED WORLDE CLASS LIEARS. i DONT LIKE MADE IN CHAONE I LOST MON M0YE MADE IN CHAOINES I AM FURTIOPUS MAAAADDDDD. THANSDKE YOU AND THU,BBES UPPSES! The Legendary EQ is Back! Walk into any world-class control room and you'll see one or more classic tube Pultecs - it's as true now as it was in 1978! The Pultec EQP-1A two-band equalizer, the modern-day re-creation of the legendary tube EQ, can give your tracks the massive bass, silky air, and addictive warmth that made the original a studio standard. Pulse Techniques is back, hand-crafting their classic EQs without compromise or "enhancement" to the original designs. New Pultecs like the EQP-1A contain only original-spec components and are dead ringers for their vintage ancestors. It may sound like magic, but it's time-tested and proven - the Pultec EQP-1A equalizer can make any track sound better. Pultec EQP-1A Two-band Equalizer at a Glance: Boost, cut, or both - it all sounds great Imbue your tracks with the stuff of legend Thank Pultec for decades of amazing recordings THANLE YOUES AND THIBBM,ERS UPPSES!

@ThinkingBetter

3 жыл бұрын

Tone controls or better, EQ, can do to our hearing what glasses can do to our eyes...listening to high-end audio systems without tone controls to help compensate for a high-frequency treble drop is like watching a 4K movie without wearing your prescription glasses. No, your brain can not compensate for it correctly!!!

"I have considered it, and the answer is 'no'.”

If less is more, just think about how much more 'more' will be 🤣

@HandbrakeBiscuit

3 жыл бұрын

In celebration of your logic, I have awarded you no likes... :) [That's an old joke from the 80s - I think someone like Rita Rudner said it first?]

@crispy_otter

3 жыл бұрын

@@HandbrakeBiscuit I must admit to hearing Frasier Crane say it, probably much later (around 2000?)

@HandbrakeBiscuit

3 жыл бұрын

@@crispy_otter I'm too often guilty of recycling old jokes myself. Clearly hit TV shows borrow material too. I shouldn't have mentioned it, really, seeing as you applied it in a clever situation. This is what the internet is really for - discussing the origin of 20-30 year old jokes in the comment section of a video about hi-fi kit's tone controls... that aren't there... :)

@isaacsykes3

3 жыл бұрын

It's funny because it's true 🤣🤣🤣🤣

Very respectable Japanese purist brands like Accuphase, Luxman or Esoteric do provide such features... Very helpful to compensate for poor recordings or speakers' ability to play certain genres that require a bit of tweaking... Don't quite get that purist POV...when it's all about enjoying the music in the best possible conditions!

@humanitech

3 жыл бұрын

You never know...PS might oneday change their minds and position and have a go at making a good eq unit. After all it took BK to convince Paul and the team to finally use and include valves...so never say never LOL

@humanitech

3 жыл бұрын

You never know...PS might oneday have a go at making a good eq unit. As so many people would really benefit. Especially as a lot of music is poorly produced and mixed these days and many home have weird room layouts and acoustics After all it took BK to convince Paul and the team to finally accept and use valves...so we can never say never I guess. I have been waiting years for a hifi company to make a good but affordable 8 channel eq unit

If one uses really short runs, one doesn’t need XLR cables. In that case, the Loki would be just fine. For Paul: offer Dirac in your products 🙂

@CaptainCrunch823

3 жыл бұрын

I own both PS Audio BHK and Stellar products and I pray that PS Audio does not implement DSP/Room correction products like Dirac in their excellent 2 channel audio products. My experience with Dirac and Audessey is that it is great for bass frequencies but does unnatural things to midrange and highs for stereo listening.

@billd9667

3 жыл бұрын

@@CaptainCrunch823 Well, one doesn't have to actually *use it*, right? The option would be nice. Besides, top flight models would not require it as their owners are generally purists.

Sure to be a controversial topic. I don't think Paul is hearing :) on this issue. Of course it's his company and his products so he will do what he thinks best. Now for many folks simple tone controls might not be enough anyway. Perhaps an separate equalizer would be better bought from a company that specializes in those needs. I built my first power amp about 1970 and have always enjoyed audio but my upper hearing has definitely dropped off. Ask a person with hearing loss if and how the brain compensates for this loss. I would say content is lost and the blanks aren't necessarily always filled in well by the brain. So, yes but not always correctly. This discussion highlights how people with good hearing generally do not understand hearing loss. In a way it is like poor communications between co-workers. So, definitely not necessarily well compensated by the brain.

@jjcale2288

3 жыл бұрын

👍one of the best comments!

Thanks for the explanation. You've just saved me many thousands of dollars. Since my brain will fill in all the gaps, all I need will be the cheapest little BT speaker and low bitrate mp3s. Brain will compensate. Problem solved! No need for Hi-End. Yeah, right. Not every setup, room, situation is a good fit for direct (no "EQ"). There are many who do not have the ability to do 100% correct setup, and it is in these scenarios that such "knob twiddling" actually works. So go ahead and make an add on. You may not sell many, but at least you will have listened to your consumer base. BTW, if you need some reference for balanced tone/eq, look at what's in the recording industry, they've been doing it for years.

at 72 yrs I use high-end hearing-aids. These hearing-aids are adjusted to a audiologists test, and makes a huge difference when listening to TV or movies. I worry that these hearing-aids will cheapen music. Any thoughts of adding the ability to input these audiology curves?

I only use tone controls for bad sounding records.

@InsideOfMyOwnMind

3 жыл бұрын

IMHO that's what they are really there for.

@rikki-tikki2506

3 жыл бұрын

I use them all the time on my albums. I am not an audiophile and perhaps I'm missing something here. Isn't not having tone controls making the assumption that the source (i.e. albums) is engineered / mastered like it should be and that's what you need to hear? I have plenty of albums that don't sound all that great.

@JamesWang007

3 жыл бұрын

@@rikki-tikki2506 I adjust them constantly, even in the middle of a song!

@TheMirolab

3 жыл бұрын

@Fat Rat It the problem with the LP pressing is that the low frequencies have been reduced (usually to fit more time on the LP), then a good EQ can resurrect those low frequencies. I absolute can make thin or dull sounding records sound MUCH better with my studio EQ. Now if it's truly a bad pressing that's worn, or noisy, then that type of bad sound cannot be fixed. But I've utterly transformed records that sounded dull & boring, to full and exciting sounding.

@gg.6967

3 жыл бұрын

@@JamesWang007 , May I suggest you try soft chair straps while giving a listening 👂 session.

Its unconventional but an affordable company called Warm Audio makes a very impressive recreation of the legendary studio Pultec EQP-1A Mastering tube equalizer after your preamp that would work wonders. To hifi purists its a sin but tastefully done with the right ear it corrects for so much placement and room imperfections and can add beautiful tube warmth to a chain

I've argued *for* tone controls coming back for years, I love my old Audiolab amp for lots of reasons including subtle but bypassable tone controls. Not all recordings are the same and I don't want to have to add another box (which is also more cables and connections) or another amp that I otherwise might not like that much. I've even seen someone want to change cartridges cos they felt 20% or so of their records were too bright sounding... so what happens to the other 80% after he's spent yet more money?

I have a question, Paul! What is the importance of the roller conveyor used in the desk you are sitting at? I have seen many computers built in to desks, but this is a new one!

maybe put the EQ in the digital part is a lot better, i mean you can made a entire parametric EQ with only 1 knob in digital plus a display, that should be a lot cheaper too. For example for the PCs users we can use parametric EQ with a DAC USB WITH ANTI JITTER for free.

what’s the difference in terms of sound quality between analog tone control and doing DSP EQ in Roon?

@mvv1408

3 жыл бұрын

That depends on the technology used and how that technology sounds to you. Analogue EQ usually introduces a slight phase shift (which can sound fine if done correctly). Digital EQ can avoid this (linear phase) but sometimes introduces pre-ringing to fast transients, which can sound unnatural.

Most of us from the 70s remember the ADC sound shaper 10 & 12 band EQ. The consumer was all RCA . Not a big deal I found myself down to 6800 hz by 31. That is how many loud concerts I attended and speakers with high SLP I listened to. So I bought a SS 2 cleaned it up. ,Recapped it. And my main stereo (2 channel) is as good as I can go without XLR units

Paul, what is the device that forms the "desk" behind you? Keep up the great dialog!

Tone controls on the digital domain are perfectly fine ;)

@TheTomt50

3 жыл бұрын

This is where it seems to be going. I saw John Darko review a product with built-in room correction for high end audio. Hmm.

@think2023

3 жыл бұрын

If done properly....can make HUGE improvements in all but an absolutely ideal room....if there is such a thing. PS.....doing it in the digital domain should NOT be expensive.

As one who can no longer afford Paul's GREAT products (retired and fixed income), I think about the lack of tone controls the same way I think about the lack of "tape loop" or "ext loop" circuits in almost EVERY mainstream stereo amp/receiver made today. Even budget/low end equipment used to put in a tape rec loop in their products. There are beaucoup great amps/receivers/preamps that I would have bought if not for the lack of a monitor circuit of some sort (ALL of Yamaha, Denon, Onkyo, Pioneer, etc. and even higher end companies like Perreau, Krell, Elac, etc.do not offer any kind of external loop to use for sound conditioning, or recording devices !!!) If you can't design a $1,000 to $10,000 amplifier without a basic DEFEATABLE tone control, or external processing loop....you have ZERO understanding of a huge portion of your customer base.......... P.S. I love Mr. McGowan's videos immensely, and he is a pioneer, and a musical genius........I just disagree with his, and others in his orbit's, views on sound"purity" vs. "control ability".

The NAD hifi that I inherited has a "tone defeat" button to switch-off the tone control. I really like it.

What is that unit on the shelf back there?

I think the most important aspect of this video is not the right or wrong of use tone control but the way Paul diplomatically answered the question .Yes Paul is a salesmen however he is consistent in the way he respects people. I personally have found he respectfulness of people permeates his staff.

Hello Mistsre Paul. WOudl you be interested to makse small 20 watte amplifiers with a 1/4 in input for guitarres AND SPEEKERS? It woudl be grea we coud use in in the apartment and effecte sp[edals into in and hook it to aCelesion speaker VINTAGES 30. THANKES YOUES AND THUUBMERES UPPSES!!

What about using the DSP built into your DAC products also including some basic tone controls ? It wouldn't help with analog sources but its a start.

@MrTheNark

3 жыл бұрын

Exactly. And it can be implemented extremely cheap with some IIR filters.

@alphaniner3770

3 жыл бұрын

that was exactly what I was thinking. - I never use tone controls.

@janinapalmer8368

3 жыл бұрын

Hate DSP ..... change to analogue much better

@dominicdiclemente8877

3 жыл бұрын

@@janinapalmer8368 If Paul doesn't want them an analog solution will never get the funding. Adding it to the DSP is much cheaper as its a single person coding it.

@MrTheNark

3 жыл бұрын

@@janinapalmer8368 Love DSP. So much more possiblilties (like filters without phase shift, room correction), much more precise (exact filter coefficients, no matching potentiometers etc), much higher flexibility. And without adding any harmonic distortion.

Best answer: buy one with the tone controls.

Paul's company, he can do what he wants. I like having the option of tweaking the bass or treble every so slightly. If i go forward on an integrated it will be a Hint 6.

@chriss881000

3 жыл бұрын

Ur adjusting the tone control foe each song? If u need to use tone control/eq, maybe u should buy a different set of speakers. I never mess with eq, i instead buy the speakers and amp that sounds perfect for me. In my opinion, if u need to mess with the tone control, u buyed the wrong speakers ;)

@chriss881000

2 жыл бұрын

@wil v that I can understand:) at low levels ish. But not moderat to high volumes. Iv never used it, but my speakers give me full and good balanced sound with low volume levels.

It's not about losing hearing like high frequencies etc . It is about the records , cd's ,streaming , other wifi sources of music . Lots of them are missing trebles , bass or have too much of it , just have a bad recording , but I still want to hear those records which many have great music content . How the hell you supposed to correct those frequencies without tone controls ? When I see those super expensive snake oil preamps or integrated without tone controls , I tell the salesmen " You can keep those " .

@luisnunobrito3132

3 жыл бұрын

Well said!👍👍

@coodapop1535

3 жыл бұрын

Yep , I gotta have them , now I have my yamaha bass/treble controls on flat , but I also have a sub so it sounds great but recordings vary that I do find myself adding a little bass or treble . I'll keep my tone controls thank you !!!

@AccuphaseMan

3 жыл бұрын

If the music is bad, the music is bad. Personally I don't try to fix a lost cause, i'm no mastering engineer.

A tone control or an EQ serves the idea (my idea at least) that not all records sounds the same, nor even the songs in the same record sounds likewise or the way I wanted to. But your purist concept is trully valid (and it's a beautifull concept) if you are willing to accept the way the artist and his producer find comercially correct the way that given record sounds with no chance to adjust to your taste. Love your videos btw.

My current amp is a Pioneer SX 1000 TD and the tone controls are always maxed out. It's just how I enjoy my music. I recently considered getting a tube amp (12AX7 preamp tubes and 2 EL84s in a push-pull configuration. I really want to go for it but . . . no bass and treble controls. That holds me back (very frustrating). I've tried to listen to my music with the Pioneer set to "flat" on the controls and I'm not a fan.

I appreciate your honest response. I think that your suggestion for an external device would work just fine. I did contact Schiit (yes I love that show as well) about adding XLR connectors, but it didn't sound like it was going to happening anytime soon. I hope, as others are suggesting below, that you are not saying 'no' as well. Please understand and listen to your customer base below. Who is buying your high end equipment? Certainly not teenagers. We of the aging elk, are the ones that have to money for this, with exceptions of course. By the way, I live ON Cape Cod, not IN Cape Cod..

My experience, nothing more - I bought a Schiit Loki because I’ve always had an EQ of some sort in previous systems, so when I redid my system there were no tone controls of any kind. Got the Loki and found I liked the “sizzle” of cymbals and such with the upper control boosted up. Very quickly I got that ears-stuffed-with-cotton feeling after listening for a short while. But I got so used to the high-end sizzle that when I turned it down it sounded muffled. I had to ween myself off of the Loki and now enjoy my system as-is.

I always had tone controls on every integrated amp I ever owned, then I bought a Bryston 4b cubed amp with bp26 pre amp with no tone controls. Didn't miss the tone controls one bit, I don't have time messing with controls to make every tune sound better. And yes the Bryston can be brutal to poor recordings but that's just the way it is. Love it!

My father has one of those modern hearing aids that are adjusted to his hearing loss. He has lost most of the high sounds. It wasn't really fun to always have to point out to him that the water for the tea was boiling [he doesn't uses an electric one but one of the stove with a whistle] And he simply couldn't hear it! Luckily he finally saw in what he missed and got himself one of those quite expensive hearing aids that change the incoming sound profile to at least make things hearable. He is happy... even still listens to music. It is definitely not a cheap hearing aid! And his taste for music and monitors still means he has a really nice set up.

You said it nicer than I would of Paul.

If we have large enough high quality speakers in a good sounding room.. tone controls should not be needed. I used to work for an audio store, and learned that factor by auditioning various speakers. The smaller ones all needed help in the bass. I was young, not old when I did that. It had nothing to do with aging ears. Trouble is. Unless its a specialized circuit? One to keep the tone control linear? It can muddy the sound. That is why many dropped using tone controls. I now use a BBE Sonic Maximizer solely for its linear bass boost with my desktop high end speakers. The bass can sound superb with top notch XLR cables. It also has a hi frequency boost that is adjustable and gives a very clear tone if needed. Just make sure to check for the AC polarity of the BBE, and you are set to go.

Tom in Cape Cod: I'm currently using a Vintage Audio, M3D Skyline Mastering Equalizer after my Parasound JC3 phono preamp. It's a pro-audio product with XLR in & outs, and it's Made in the U.S. to the highest standards (it's heavy!). It's got 6 very wide bands of EQ for minimal phase shifting. Transients are retained nicely & it's very transparent! I have it in my phono chain because so many commercial LPs are sonically compromised, and they benefit GREATLY from quality EQ. When I play a great pressing that needs no EQ, it has true hard-wire bypass. This is a stunning EQ that will transform your enjoyment of vinyl. It's price very fairly at $1400.

@jjcale2288

3 жыл бұрын

That's the way to go! 👍

Added tone controls to compensate for a listener's poor gearing hearing would be analogous to said listener talking to the orchestra's conductor before a symphony asking him "could you make the high instruments louder?". One simple answer: "Adjust!" 😁

Thank you for these videos! I do miss the old fashioned loudness button.

@ryanray6215

3 жыл бұрын

Plenty of great preamps and integrated have amazing loudness button . Not like overpriced snake oil PSAudio preamps .

I have an ADC analyzer/equalizer SS-525X that uses pink noise thru my speakers using a mic to measure the different frequencies coming out of the speakers. It automatically boosts the weaker frequencies of my speakers and really improves the sound quality of them. My friends and I cant believe how good it improves the sound quality. The better the speakers the less it does. It makes low quality speakers sound much better but with my new Polk signature S60 it does not have to do much. I know true audiohaulics would frown on this. The ADCs are not made anymore. What is your opinion about this? Yes, I am using 2 subwoofers.

I like direct mode when there is an EQ feature.

To raise HF content easily and cheaply reduce the level resistor in front of your tweeter. one way of doing it is to add a resistor in parallel to reduce resistance e.g. if the value is 4ohm a 27ohm in parallel will take it down to 3.57. A link might be run to outside the speaker through the port for example to experiment with different values, and can be hard wired in at a later date. You can halve the current value of the new resistors to the existing as you are sharing load. Essentially using your speaker as a tone control will not affect the signal path one jot. If it sounds no good you have spent 'peanuts'.

It's not even an "elderly" issue at all although it's obviously a valid issue for seniors. The more compelling reason to have tone controls is the simple fact that room acoustics account for more than half of sound quality. People need to have a way to compensate for their imperfect room acoustics and the obvious compromise for purists is to have a simple bypass or direct switch. Make sense?

I have years of commercial audio experience...a clean 5 band EQ with adjustable frequencies and bandwidth controls would be a great compromise...not knowing of the engineering compromises...some digital boards i have used are noiseless and easy to tweek frequencies for max performance....

Any high quality rig will make poorly recorded sessions sound worse IMO.

@dynaudiofocus

3 жыл бұрын

I totally agree, the better the system, the better the recording has to be, certain tracks I enjoy more on crap systems if the recording is harsh

Tone controls adds more circuitry which means more electrical conductors and any conductor acts as an antenna that can pick up unwanted signals. Signal integrity is very important for optimal performance, Wi-Fi vs wired internet connection is an obvious example of this, it can take as little as a car with a bad spark plug wire driving by to interrupt a Zoom call in a house on Wi-Fi but not on a wired connection because the wire has some physical shielding.

I understand but quest for purity in the audio signal path. I have endeavoured to do so in my designs, amateur though they may be. It's interesting, however, that the removal of tone controls was quickly followed by the passion of system matching which is essentially a form of tone control. It does, however, have the benefit of generating more income for the industry. Thanks, Paul.

I do use a preamp with tone controls, but I don’t really ever use them. Once you get your system right, you’ll feel like there is nothing to add. Modern pop recordings are kinda heavy on lows, never listen to them anyway.

I'm 70 years old, and my hearing has deteriorated over the years. I now have hearing aids. They really do make a difference. I can now hear the high end. As I live in London (UK) I am able to get them free. But wherever you live, do consider them. They will improve the sound for you if you are a similar age to me.

Something better would be DSP for room corrections. Something that can usually boost the higher frequencies and those occupied by the formants of speech can really help compensate for furnishings and other sound-eating things in the room to ensure the speakers still sound clear and bright. With that said, some form of correction is usually required.

I miss having a separate EQ, but I prefer the simplicity of modern systems. If I can't hear it good enough I just turn it up.

@_klent

3 жыл бұрын

Right.

Here here! Not only that, but there are room acoustics, different speakers etc... we want to control our toys! Lol Paul still sounds like Paul, a trumpet like a trumpet etc. but my Dad had a really nasty ear infection that left him deaf in one ear. He went from listening to Some fairly progressive music, and enjoying it to listening to country. He couldn’t hear complex melodies like he used to. And I would always use some form of equalization. I always have. I transcribed my own tapes to carry in my car fir two reasons. First, some of the tapes you could buy that were prerecorded were horrible quality that bled oxide all over my tape heads and screwing them up. The build up would get so bad I’d have to pull a deck out of my car to clean it, and they just sounded terrible. Recording my own meant I could adjust for my cheap deck’s flaws and get pretty darn close to CD quality music off of them! And it was worth the effort! Now I still have a lot of my old equipment, but it’s all in need of recapping and new drive belts etc. when I build my next car I may put my old deck in it, and then show these kids what you can do with old gear and efficient speakers, without vibrating the windows out of the car of course. I want to hear music the rest of my life!

I have an active 4-way setup. No eq/tone controls. It sounded just like what I hear on my earphone. You don't need tone control. You need a decent speaker or make it multi way setup.

I agree with Paul but only if PS also supply a means to sculpt the sound to accommodate for age related issues, room related issues and issues with poor recordings. I dont accept only 10% of customers would benefit. Conservatively I estimate 20% might benefit but I'd suspect around 100% would play with the controls just to confirm it didn't improve something. This is an audio hobby. Provide s control and everyone will at least try it. If it makes a true improvement is totally subjective and down to taste. If PS want to provide this as s separate "tone control" unit then so be it. Think Schiit used to have one but doesn't seem to be available anymore. Love the vids. Stay safe. Regards.

It’s completely harmless and trivial to do a high resolution EQ function through DSP in the digital path of a music system e.g. inside the DAC. Of course that will only work with digital music, but so be it. Actually it’s silly easy to engineer and doesn’t take a shoebox of electronics. E.g. check the dual DAC BTR5 USB/BT DAC and connect it to a US$100,000 system, play some master FLAC and be blown away.

There are no tone controls on my Cyrus 1 and I don't miss them.

People should know that, if you have tone controls (equaliser) Then you have a more controlled/muted/slightly lower level of warmth, compared to a design without. So even if you don't use it. It affects the music to some degree big or small depending on brand/model. This is to some degree nice, to be able to do this. But you are then, removing a bit of sincerity/purity/direct reaction, introducing what is basically a form of PC interacting with the source signal. I have heard amps with and without EQ, and to put it in simple terms. It is just compensating, by not dealing with the core problem, when you do that. And that is fine, on a certain level for some people. I don't like it, and I am glad that Paul from PSaudio also does not like it. It shows that they are still trying to make as genuine a sound as is possible. (respect) But yeah again, some companies make a sound that is so bad, that they have to put it on, not just for marketings reasons, but to compensate for bad build quality/parts. This is a general rule in HIFI how you solve many types of problems: compensating.

no tone controls in audio gear is like no brightness contrast and saruration controls in a tv set. paul you are wrong in this. give me tone controls i know my ears better. i need eq. i always eq. you NEED eq.

@RetroBerner

3 жыл бұрын

So buy an EQ

@markusmathis1811

3 жыл бұрын

Brightness is your volume and thats all you need on a top of the line calibrated TV

@luisnunobrito3132

3 жыл бұрын

In many (bad) recordings you need an equalizer.

@jjcale2288

3 жыл бұрын

@@markusmathis1811 you want "calibrated" movies and live transmissions too for your "well calibrated tv"

@markusmathis1811

3 жыл бұрын

@@jjcale2288 i never used colour, contrast or whatever on my Panasonic Plasma, or now on my Panasonic TX-65GZW2004 I cant see the point, if there is a bad record i cant listen to because its so bad - i dont listen to this anymore. For me its simple...

Paul continues to misspell "Schiit". 😁

@philipketchum1407

3 жыл бұрын

I was hoping someone pointed that out so I didn’t need to. 👍

A better question is why no "tape"loops. Then we could insert a Loki in or out without loss. And a compander for low volumes. An expander for vinyl, etc. At least provide a line out to hook up house distribution and FM transmitter, etc.

No disrespect intended, but isn't being in business all about pleasing your customers, sometimes counter to your own beliefs and practices? There are several XLR-based professional equalizers out there that can turn sound from so-so gear into something so much better! At least provide customers with options, or they may look elsewhere for solutions.

@b3player727

2 жыл бұрын

Yep, I have a couple of vintage stereo Rane 30 band eq's that I have saved from my live sound reinforcement days that I am considering pulling out to see how much noise they will introduce in my "pure" 2 channel audio system.

i have purchased a direct stream dac , i have purchased the bhk 250 amp , i did not purchase the bkh pre amp because it didnt have tone control. you have done yourself out of a sale.the reason i didnt do it was i have found that your products are bass heavy ,it sounds fantastic ,im more than happy but the bass does over power when i hook up the dac straight to the bhk. i have had to re-route the xlr's through my yamaha pre amp so that i can lower the bass to the point that its not over powering .its very is unfortunate as i was really looking forward to buying one .i had already ordered a test machine to come to my house only to cancel when i realised it didnt had tone controls. rather disappointing as i feel my systems incomplete. only option is to purchase some one elses. if you have any info on how to control it id appreciate this. i have 2 separate subs, a 16 ultra svs and a monitor audio gold 15" sub. thanks paul

@matthewsallman1700

3 жыл бұрын

If you have that many subwoofers, couldn't you just adjust the levels on them to get a better balance between highs and the lows? I recently replaced my electronics with units with much more prominent bass and I was able to turn my subwoofer off. I may go back and readjust the levels, but it became too bass heavy at the old settings.

@brianmoore581

3 жыл бұрын

I agree with Matthew Sallman. You have some great electronics, but I think maybe you are muddying up the bass with two huge subwoofers that don't even match. I would turn them both off and see how that sounds, then if you really need a subwoofer I would use one, not both, and certainly not two different models from different manufacturers. Their frequency responses can't be identical, so you have a lot of stuff going on there that can't be good for the sound.

@milkman100001

3 жыл бұрын

@@matthewsallman1700 i also incorporate run a 7.2.4 dolby system .thats what the 2 subs are for.i use a yamaha pre to switch everything.plus paul always says to use subs.

@milkman100001

3 жыл бұрын

@@brianmoore581 i agree too.the ma sub will be replaced in due course.however having 2 the same wont fix the issue..

@matthewsallman1700

3 жыл бұрын

@@milkman100001 I'm not saying you shouldn't have the subwoofers. Just that you have to reset the levels of the subwoofers when you make other changes to the system. You can't just say that the new piece of equipment is too bass heavy if you have not adjusted the subwoofer level.

i agree with paul, furthermore your brain adapt to hearing loss, so you would make things worse by adjusting the hifi it back to what you had before. the real instrument should sound the same as your hifi, and that wont be the case if you fiddle with the response of your hifi to compensate for hearing loss.

@mysock351C

3 жыл бұрын

Its not for hearing loss, its to compensate for room acoustics. Since not all rooms are the same, some form of correction is required.

@sudd3660

3 жыл бұрын

@@mysock351C room acoustic and room correction is another topic, but my point still stands, dont compensate for hearing loss. with room acoustics tone controls are not enough and a bad idea. example: bass is low, you add bass with tone control. no matter is its a shelf style or peak style effect. it works in a general way and to a large area. its a real problem since, the real room response is wavy, there might be a peak at 40hz that gets pushed up by 4 db because you want an overall bass boost. the peak at 30 hz probably are surrounded by dips at 30hz and 60hz. tone controls only work right when the in room response of a speaker system is pretty even and rolls of i or have smooth large dips or peaks just in the tone control values.

@mysock351C

3 жыл бұрын

@@sudd3660 While tone controls aren't perfect, they're at least something. Better than just living with it, which is what I was getting at. I dont disagree with you on the hearing, but something should be there, either controls, or perhaps DSP. Also I've taken measurements of speakers in an actual room and what you typically see are large dips and peaks (+/- 10dB) at periodic intervals across the frequency range due to constructive and destructive interference due to how conventional speakers radiate sound. These you _dont_ want to correct for as they are periodically distributed throughout the room and vary with location, and this sounds like what you're referring to. I have used microphones and a spectrum analyzer as an experiment to correct for crummy speakers using an EQ and room acoustics, and this does get some results, but with good speakers all I needed on my hifi setup was to adjust the tone controls, and use a dynamic range expander since I was listening to digital audio (my Denon had that option, and it works quite well).

@sudd3660

3 жыл бұрын

@@mysock351C for you it might seem like tone controls are better than nothing, but actually implementing it in a product it not worth it, like Paul said. tone controls are the worst kind and it is what the topic is about. full parametric eq in the digital domain is another topic.

@mysock351C

3 жыл бұрын

@@sudd3660 On the contrary tone controls can be quite useful for the casual listener that just wants to balance out the sound. Granted most good speakers dont need much, and its something that should be part of a preamp rather than an amplifier, and with the advent of soft controls it can be implemented in software along with other controls to give the user some functionality rather than just signal in-signal out. Its no replacement for proper room treatment or speaker placement, but it can help even out the sound of a set of speakers. Parametric EQs can be useful, but you can also seriously screw up the response of a good set of speakers if you dont know what you're doing. Like most people wont know that giving some preference to the span of frequencies that are occupied by the formants of speech will make speakers sound more clear and bright than just jacking up all the knobs past 6kHz on the EQ. Some of the DSP enhancements on consoles and PC sound cards do just that, and its quite effective, but not something people would normally know. If you have a good set of reference headphones and you are technically inclined, then the EQ is fine, but it doesn't hurt to include more basic controls for other users who want good high end equipment, but are not as savvy.

Paul, when you build that separate highfalutin equalizer box, and I know this is an absolute heresy (I’ve seen your videos on this), please remember to put the room correction magic in that special box, also - we all can’t afford to have a dedicated listening room, and no amount of speaker re-positioning is going to correct for mixed hard tile floors, and a couple of throw rugs! The family vetoed the baffles ;-)

The point with tone controls is to increase the low and high frequency at low volumes, and to adjust down at high volume..

I miss my ADC Sound Shaper 10 band EQ. But seriously, it boils down to personal preference. There’s absolutely no right or wrong. Me, I’m a sound tweaker😛

Audiophiles have a tendency to use tone controls in a wrong way most of the time I use my pre amplifier on a direct mode I'm very satisfied thanks for the review

One of my greatest complaints about "high end" audio. Even though I seldom use them, they can save an older recording (usually by tweaking the bass) and make it listenable. As it is, my "upgrade path" is severely limited to products that are not "pure".

The best reasons to not include tone controls are the effort required to engineer them and deciding what frequencies and curves might best suit the majority of applications. Best remedy: Parametric in at least three bands, and preferably up to ten. Doing that well enough to match existing PS performance standards is not cheap. Remember that there is no requirement to have all of the equipment in a system be the same brand. Mix it up as needed, including, if desired, an equalizer.

I tend to agree with the letter-writer for those unfortunates who have significant high-frequency hearing loss. But I disagree about low-level listening. I used to use "loudness" compensation when listening to my high fidelity systems, but then I began a 15-year career in broadcast audio. Broadcast studios don't use or even offer loudness compensation. Eventually I trained my ear/brain interface to enjoy and -- be able to detect and evaluate -- flat audio even at low levels. Loudness compensation just sounds bizarre to me now. I think I am a better and more critical listener for having learned this.

Hi Paul, thank you for answering that question. I, like almost everyone I know would love tone controls on pre-amps and integrated amps. The music producer isn't afraid of equalizing signals and we will never be in the control room listening when our favorite music was created. So your speakers are a bit weak in the mid-range? Or weak in the bass department? or treble? Maybe the room isn't ideal.... maybe the song is mixed perfectly to your liking in the studio... well that would be great.... but maybe it wasn't. We are humans and we like the ability to adjust our things. It doesn't matter to me that you don't want to adjust anything yourself, that is your prerogative, but for Heaven's sake don't deny everyone else the option. Do some customer surveys, I bet you will be surprised at how much real people want this ability. Thank You

I wish it Schiit Audio would make a Loki with balanced in and out and a black finish. I would buy one, strictly for use in the digital domain.

As a practical matter, if you need something, or you simply want it, and a particular company doesn't make it then there is no choice but to look for it elsewhere. And realistically no one company can be expected to make a sufficient range of products to satisfy every audiophile's needs or desires out there. I can't fault PS Audio for focusing on what they do and striving to do it well.

Hold on a minute Paul I think a better way then tone controls or gain controls, what about building an active crossover what will do the same thing but be more versatile and do a better job could be used with your speakers or any speakers for that matter built-in with ASP and DSP room correction as well. If you want your ultimate tone controls you can build your own made from valves a pultec graphic equaliser can buy them already assembled best in industry come with focus and expander built-in meaning you can focus the soundstage and expanded left and right front and back, and I would add to that get yourself a subharmonic synthesizer make your speakers come to life it works 100hz and below boost carries the lower frequencies in the subharmonics something like the dbx 120x DS can pick up for about $150 comes with subwoofer connection

What you do: You get something with DIRAC on it and do room correction as well as tuning in the curve however you like.

In the audiophile market there seems to be little interest in tone controls. You see few high grade equalizers and very few reviews. Seems to be use more in the music editing or dj side of things.

@MarioPetrinovich

3 жыл бұрын

The audiophile market thrives on people who are not satisfied with the sound they are hearing. So, they will never give them sound controls, if they have them, they would suddenly be satisfied with the sound, and lose the willing to spent their money on audiophile market. This is where from this "pure sound" meme originated. Tonal balance is what you need, not "pure sound".

@flargosa

3 жыл бұрын

@@MarioPetrinovich Schiit gave audiophiles the Loki, but few talk about it, my guess is because few buy it. Just little interest with equalizers among most audiophiles.

@MarioPetrinovich

3 жыл бұрын

@@flargosa Yes, somebody buys Rolexes, somebody expensive cars, and somebody audio equipment. In my own experience, I wouldn't give consumer more than just 'high' and 'low'. Those two are absolutely necessary, while anything more than that can actually create problems. It can work after you spend some time with it, but, it is a bit tricky. With 'high' and 'low' you know immediately. If your speakers are positioned more or less correctly. If your speakers' position doesn't follow minimum manufacturer's recommendations, then nothing will help you (without using some acoustic treatment). Also, there is a problem with resonators too, which can really screw the sound, and, if you don't know what they are (usually some biggish thin hard plates), and if you don't rid of them, you are in trouble, no matter what you do.

Well said, Paul. For the most part, I agree. Hi fi audio is expensive enough. I suppose it is also a matter of personal choice.

Hi Paul I use the BBE sonic maximizer it is perfect for tone controls

Isn't the answer that will satisfy everyone defeatable tone controls? From me Bill

Its all going digital now. You have everything converted to digital and you manipulate all the sound through drop down menus. Then you feed a class d amp. It has all changed. We have bands come to a theater I own, they use a Berenger digital mixer, through a cell phone or tablet you adjust expansion, compression, gating, eq for each channel and so on.

I guess suggesting DSP as a solution misses the fact that this target market is more used to analog options

So how much sonic/financial cost would there be to put a tape monitor/external processor loop (or two) into a preamp, so that your customers would at least have that option available? Hey, analog reel-to-reel tape decks are making a bit of a come back, albeit an expensive (but way cool) one. Yes, tone controls usually introduce some sonic detriments as well as making the desired corrections for imperfect, but artistically impressive historical (and some current) recordings. As long as it makes an overall improvement to the listening experience, I call that a win. Are you tired of reading these comments from me yet?

Now I have a studio, the tone mixing is for the artist. My stereo is always flat eq now. Just give me quality stereo and the tone is there...because of the art.

@TommyB427

3 жыл бұрын

I'm not suggesting that it's not there. It's that we with some hearing issues, can't hear them as well as we used to do. We need just a little help.

@MarioPetrinovich

3 жыл бұрын

How in the whole world you are using your studio if you don't have the slightest idea of room acoustics and ear sensitivity. At what volume you are mixing? How this translates to a common listener? How this translates to the common listening situation? What the heck, you should be the first to know about tonal balance and ear sensitivity.

I am 69 years old and my hearing rolls off around 9,000 or 10,000 Hz but I have to agree with Paul. To me tone controls add distortion. Your brain adapts to your hearing loss very slowly over time so that your brain no longer expects the high frequencies. When you artificially boost these frequencies your brain will recognize that the sound is no longer like a live performance. I never use my tone controls, not even the loudness control. When you listen to low level music you ears tend to attenuate the low and high frequencies so that they are reduced in volume. This is natural and normal. Boosting them back up is not natural and our brains can recognize this. I think we need to give our brains more credit that we do. On a subconscious level our brain function is incredibly complex and capable of discerning minute details that we may not be consciously aware of. Don't try to fool your brain it knows better lol.

I've never seen a high end preamp with tone controls. My system is tone control free for many years & it's fine that way.

A lot of British amps don't have tone controls, I personally don't use them on my Marantz I always use source direct despite having very poor high frequency hearing.

@MarioPetrinovich

3 жыл бұрын

Direct sound is only for listening over phones. You should use loudness over phones. Over speakers you should use both, tone controls and loudness. Tone controls adjust for room acoustics, while loudness adjusts for ear sensitivity. Over phones you don't have room acoustics, so, if you don't have the direct button, you would need to put tone controls to zero for listening over phones. This is why the direct button is here. Notice that direct button bridges balance control too. This doesn't have sense, because, if you need balance control, the direct button would actually worsen your sound, not enhance it. But, over phones you don't need balance, so this is why it bridges balance too.

@MarioPetrinovich

3 жыл бұрын

@Fat Rat My name is "Nobody". Or, you can use that other name (above), lol.

I restored my hearing with Super Tweeters

Don't think lxr cables are better most cases are not most cases it goes through a chip circuitry what degree the sound BNC would be better

Don't think tone controls would make that much difference in regards to frequency, in my early 50s using a dB meter on a cd that did frequency range from 20 to 20 k when playing the 18k frequency I didn't hear anything crank up the volume still nothing look down at the meter and it was going crazy didn't want to believe I was losing my high frequency hearing

I’m old school, a purest, a minimalist, analog man, though these days I stream most of my music, it’s just so dammed convenient! I would never entertain tone controls as any part of my hifi rig. I do respect those who find that tone controls enhance their listening pleasure, and there are plenty of premium manufacturers who cater to that market.

@nocturnal1970

3 жыл бұрын

I had to remove my Thorens turntable to make way for a 43" smart TV I have connected into my Arcam hi-fi via optical. I have been watching KZread where there are high quality videos with good audio of vinyl being played and I had to laugh at myself but it is very entertaining and without the hassle.

great question..... also wont it also help correct a room problem? especially with the wife dictating what kind of treatments you can use, lol

I wish you had tone controls on your amps and wish you would reconsider.

@ilovecops5499

3 жыл бұрын

Graphic equalizer make spike type of chanes to the sdiganl. It ruins the sounds. a Parametic qualizer would be better c to controll the sound. They runi tht esdigna alwya and sould NOTT BE USED! THANKES YOUE AND THIBBMER UPPSER!

@MarioPetrinovich

3 жыл бұрын

@@ilovecops5499 Yes, and this is why you only have high and low on consumer products. Having sound "flat" is the worst case scenario, because that way you cannot correct for your room acoustics (tonal controls) and you ear sensitivity at different volume levels (loudness). Those controls aren't perfect, but they are much, much better than having nothing at all.

Boy they hid this one from me. I wont have a Walmart radio with out a EQ. I got feed that single (on/off) button control high end crap back in the 90's. Took my tax check to a high end small chain audio store we contracted for to buy a receiver/amp that would not gimp under my Infinity RS IIIa's. Bought the second best in the store. The best was just a slight upgrade of the one I bought. Hated it. Totally flat unless I played just the right disc or album. I had 1000's at the time and being able to enjoy just one or two was not an option. Not to mention that it went into circuit protection anywhere over 3/8ths volume. It went back to the store the next day as did a couple more over the next week and I never looked at High End audio the same again.

when you go to a concert there is no way to change the sound

@Historia.Magistra.Vitae.

3 жыл бұрын

@John Holmes: Which is why you go to the concert for the experience ... not for the sound quality, which is usually bad.

One solution would be to get a studio-quality graphic or parametric equaliser with XLR connections.

@blekenbleu

3 жыл бұрын

For digital audio sources, digital EQ before DtoA conversion can be more nearly ideal.

my top of the range McIntosh C1100 pre-amp has no tone controls... and sounds AMAZING. I have never had a reason to change anything in the EQ to get great SQ. Here is a video I made of my system just the other day: kzread.info/dash/bejne/f3xpu6Obc8mqeps.html&

Make a PS audio awesome equalizer!!!! I'll Buy it!

I would love to see an old school bass, treble, and volume control on a tube pre amp. By the way I'm 70.

@ryanray6215

3 жыл бұрын

Mcintosh is making those .

This is a complex topic! How many patrons of PS Audio are using the gear in untreated listening environments? No way would I spend a lot of money on high-end audio gear without room treatment. PS Audio could add another pre to their line that has EQ that can be entirely switched out from the audio path when not in use. OTOH, if you look farther back in the chain, from when the source material was being captured, to the various decisions made in production, mixing and mastering, there is phase degradation at every turn, with some of it resulting from creative decisions. Mic placement, EQ, compression / limiting, FX, etc. all contribute to phase issues but hopefully, the end result was intentional for the most part, so having gear that will deliver the audio to the listener the way the producers intended is an important starting point.