Paul, I so much appreciate your HONESTY in explaining to us the real truth of audio product understanding and proper evaluation. Thanks, as always!

After a totally frustrating days work (which I'm grateful to have under the covid circumstances) it's nice to listen to Paul's calming voice and learn something interesting and new at the same time. Thank you!

I wish that when I was a Beginner this video had been available. Started out reading the audio file magazines and soon realized nobody ever wrote a negative review of anything. I think Paul should do a part II on what I believe diminishing returns

@stonefree1911

3 жыл бұрын

kzread.info/dash/bejne/k2l7sJOaZbvThLg.html Here ya go. It's actually my question he's answering.

One of the key points with electronics is that we now have the technology to build a nearly perfect amplifier for audio reproduction. It is possible to design a 500W amplifier with .001% THD + N, and a full power bandwidth up to 50 kHz. For line stages (many would call them preamps), modern op-amps like the LM4562, OPA2132 and the OPA1642 mean that there is no reason why distortion can't be down in the .0005% range with a cutoff frequency well past 500 kHz. Nobody can hear the difference between .005% and .0005% THD. The math simply isn't in your favor. 0.005% THD corresponds to about -86 dB below the fundamental. Speakers are far less perfect, with much more limited transient and distortion performance.

Been watching these videos for years and didn’t realize your shop is in my home town until just now.

The infamous law of diminishing returns. Happens to everything.

@AndyBHome

3 жыл бұрын

Paul coming straight out and admitting that the law of diminishing returns is very real in HiFi. Stereo salesmen all over the planet are frustrated with this video because they don't want this idea to become widely accepted, especially not in such a simple way. It's an obvious phenomenon but if you put numbers on it, as Andrew Robinson did in one of his videos about a year ago, you effectively tell people exactly where, at which price, they are going to get the most from their audio system dollar (or whatever currency you use). And that puts a practical cap on what most people will spend. And of course salesman don't want that to happen. They want you to spend as much as you are able. I think the law of diminishing returns is complicated by the fact that every brand is different, and also by the market in which a lot of things compete for components at a certain price. So I think there are a lot of great value items at a popular price point, but also a lot of neat looking things that aren't particularly a good value but have their prices elevated to that price because the sellers know that it's a cutoff for many people. I could watch a dozen videos about the law of diminishing returns in HiFi. It's a subject I never get tired of. I guess you could say there is no point of diminishing returns for me when it comes to this subject!

@diemman70

3 жыл бұрын

@@AndyBHome 👍

Bought Vandersteen 2 speakers in 1979 from Robert Taylor-“Taylor House” Called him yesterday and he’s ordering me new Vandersteen 3a speakers. I’m excited

That was very helpful! Thank you.

Man. You talk sense. Bless you 🙏.

There is no denying the law of diminishing return. But where it is, that is a matter of personal choice. However I think Paul refers to the median perception of Audiophiles and I am sure they have the marketing to back it up. I am always amazed how good of a video comes out of such humdrum questions.

Point of diminishing returns . Great content. 👍

Thanks Paul

Just popped a 22000 Krell into my system, it made a huge difference- night and day!

Great explanation about the basics of hifi audio. Did you notice the Dude Wipes on the workbench? Cheers!

Being HAPPY! What makes people HAPPY is this. "They get what they like, plain and simple." Sure, most of the time that you spend more, you will get a better product. KIA vs. PORSCHE. That is an extreme, but true. QUALITY, that is number 1!! Tried and true, you get what you pay for. QUALITY will never go out of style! Just because a friend says, "That This Is Better Then That, Should never apply to what you like. Do "Blind Listening" sessions in your price range. (I do have to say this. That pretty much only applies to Hi-End equipment. I have had my ADS L-810 speakers for almost 40 years. They rock, I have a McIntosh MHT-200 System Controller. It Rocks! Sometimes you should be happier then 99.9% of the people out there by not LOOKING-OVER-YOUR-SHOULDER, not thinking REVIEWS MATTER and just saying to yourself, I am "Above The Crowd!" Please let me know your thoughts on how I feel? Thank You-GREG

Hi! An entertaining and informative video as usual! I would like to point out another significant factor in the price / performance equation... Up here in Canada, for many decades, audio manufacturers had free access to the sound laboratories and anechoic chamber of The National Research Council (NRC). During these decades, Canadian equipment OFTEN sounded and measured (and reviewed) well above most of the equipment in similar price categories from other countries. I will mention just a few of many examples across a few price points ... Paradigm, Fluance, PSB, Anthem, Axiom, Classe, Focus, Bryston... While unfortunately that program ended years ago, the research, engineering and testing head start those companies along (with the engineers, designers and fabricators working for them) got was enough to propel their quality far beyond what competitors could possibly match for the price. That Canadian investment in R&D paid for itself several times over and it's unfortunate that it faded into history. I do think that several of those companies will continue to be competitive into the future thanks to the research bump in the past, but over time it is definitely fading.

I started with the (GREAT!) Sprout100 and loved it. Then went to the Stellar level. Yup, VERY big performance jump. Want to go BHK when I can afford it, but as Paul says, I know the level jump from Stellar to BHK is not as great. Yet worth it...

Nice point. Diminishing returns applies more so to electronics than to speakers.

@hugobloemers4425

3 жыл бұрын

At a later point, I would say.

Great video !

Very informative video!!!

IMHO I would tell someone who is just starting is to get something with a EQ. You can clean up a lot of crappy equipment and also figure out what direction you want to go. Also there is nothing more defeating then getting a "better" piece of equipment and find out it sounds like crap in your room. Again a EQ can fix that. Once you know the direction you can work toward getting the EQ to flat.

I didn't "like" the video because it came up 666, however I greatly enjoyed your honesty, and explanation of the potential for diminishing returns in audio equipment, Keep up the great work.

What is the best speakers in your opinion and how do that compair to focal

Oh man, I just got the KEF SL50 meta's. I wish I had a PS Audio amp.

If there is a nicer person in the industry don’t know who it would be and he gives explanations and comparisons that everyone can understand regardless of prior knowledge

how wonderful interesting! thank you!

Well said! 👍🏻

From what I've seen not always but one of the least expense of components of a loud speaker is actually the drivers (not necessarily proprietary custom designed drivers).... The bulk of the expense is cabinets and R&D. You can purchase some higher end drivers like morel, scan speak ect at places like madisound, parts express ect for relatively low prices and several of these drivers are used in primium brand speakers, even a $1000 would get you a nice set of drivers and if you know enclosure, crossover and porting design you can have some seriously asounding sounding speakers... No not ground breaking stuff but upper end caliber. It's alot of work research and trial and error but you can end up with equipment pennies on the dollar with some real effort. But then again how much is your time worth.....

simple, yet perfect and most educative explanation I've heard in a long time (any topic included). you should be a teacher. :o)

@killacallahan1

3 жыл бұрын

I was thinking the same thing. Paul is awesome!

@19janiboy96

3 жыл бұрын

@@killacallahan1 he'S the best grandpa on youtube :D

Very honest overview, always appreciated. I'm still trying to find a home demo of Stella Strata products in the UK to make a final decision on my shortlisted products. Even with a $500 amp on a $5,000 pair of speakers they sound great so I'm interested to see how much better SS will make them sound. To answer the obvious question of why the hell have you got a $500 amp on $5,000 speakers, the answer is that I have only recently upgraded from $750 speakers.

@Spkrdctr

3 жыл бұрын

I would recommend the Strata from PS Audio!

@ruk2023--

3 жыл бұрын

@Fat Rat I respectfully disagree, the speakers are where the money should be if you are going to spend more on one than the other. They are what makes the noise, sure a good amp will make poor speakers sound better but only up to a point.

@ruk2023--

3 жыл бұрын

@@Spkrdctr strata or dac / s300 combo....I can't decide which I would prefer.

@ruk2023--

3 жыл бұрын

@Fat Rat You fear right. And I agree with that.

Today with Class D I'm guessing the price is less of an indication of what you're getting. A couple of companies develops and makes the chip, the majority of them gets assembled to a board in Asia. Then different brand buys the boards, complement them with surrounding electronics, makes a case and sell them. Like ICE amplifiers, a board for $100 can be found in say $4000 amplifiers. It's a sensible time to get in to DIY. :)

@juliaset751

3 жыл бұрын

I have found with class D, that the big differences come in the input buffer stage. The better ones use their own discrete class A, not a chip. There are some awesome chips out there though, I'm not knocking them, they just can't do high current input stages.

I would love to buy an Onkyo r-n855 because of the compact form factor. It is for a 25m2 room. What are the alternatives? I am not really an audiophile and there are not that many review out there. All I knbow it is a Class D amp outputting 2x70w but I guess this is peak whereas I think it is only 25W per channel.

Hay Paul, the sales guys will be on your ass for knocking $99 off the price of a Sprout.

@googoo-gjoob

3 жыл бұрын

Paul sells hay?

@googoo-gjoob

3 жыл бұрын

@Fat Rat , oh... so Paul's a rancher?

@jamesplotkin4674

3 жыл бұрын

@Fat Rat Mind that ram... baa baa thud.

Thanks. Time to drop 20k on some audio note speakers! And keep my direct stream junior. 🙈

Although well said with passion and eloquence and I tend to agree overall with your statement. It's only fair to mention that within those echelon of speakers one will still encounter a sound that one likes and one dislikes. The gap may be smaller as the price gets larger. However the disparity of taste within the category is still there. And one never knows what one is missing until one buys more. And THAT is the hook of many an esoteric industry. Will that 40 footer make you happier than that 38 footer? Did that 38 footer make you feel more successful than the 30 footer had? Will you stop at 50 even IF you can afford MORE?!?! Do you go shopping for "a car" or do you go test drive "the car" that you want and compare it with others in the category?

@Finn-McCool

3 жыл бұрын

@Fat Rat Not I, my system is complete. All I need is my hearing to remain functional.

Near field listening with small speakers is not largely affected by room problems. It's when you have a larger room and dynamic speakers that acoustics need to be right. I'm surprised at how many systems are shown on KZread with thousands of dollars worth of equipment and the listening room has bare floors. Just throwing an area rug in front of the set-up won't cancel all of the reflections from hard surfaces of floor and walls, which muddy the signal. Designers use anechoic chambers to measure their products for a reason - to remove the chance of spurious reflected sound waves from interfering with the pure signal emitted directly. Headphones are popular, because they isolate the sound on the recording from contamination with room noises. A lot of listeners have echoic rooms and don't know it. Clap your hands forcefully and if you hear an echo your room is too reflective. Sometimes, your significant other loves hardwood floors better than good listening. Then you are in trouble. This is a topic which need further coverage, as there are too many variables to give one succinct answer. With a good room and good speakers, placement is the first to be addressed.The audio market is very competitive and there are many great components, but no amount of money spent on gear can make up for a bad listening room.

Sonic electronic wisdom all over the video, thank you Sir.👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👋🏼

I would like it if there were some kind of constructive feedback from this channel to the comments. Over and over there are well thought out reactions with no reply. Is PS Audio simply YouTubing their brand?

5:32 Nice.

Update on the book?

Took a while for you to explain the law of diminishing returns. You get what you pay for isn't something absolute.

Paul, what's going on in the PSA forum? Can't see post updates or post new topics?

3:38 - time to play "PS Keek-a-boo" with "Peek-a-boo Paul!" Yeah!!!

@QoraxAudio

3 жыл бұрын

😂

'Mediocre to good' is a big improvement, 'good to perfect' maybe less so. However, the optimum point of perfection in electronics vs speakers is interesting. It would suggest that for instance Accuphase or McIntosh are operating at too high a level of perfection. Is that true? Or is it brand status and beauty of products that come into play here?

Diminishing returns means that your ear is the end all for what sounds good.

@graxjpg

3 жыл бұрын

@Fat Rat I am! I’ll email you some pics whenever I get my phone fixed. I’m using my wifes while she sleeps LOL. My amp hums, and I’m too lazy to track down those damn leaky caps. I’ve been using my mixing board as a headphone amp, nice clean sound and I can jam along with whatever I want!

I'm just starting my journey into high end I have a great budget I just don't know where to start I got to accommodate two rooms. The stellar stack is at the top of my list but it has to be in the same room as my home theater. Any thoughts

@killacallahan1

3 жыл бұрын

@Fat Rat in the Atlanta area suburbs. just retiring. My room is 18 by 14 and 10-ft ceilings I have two rooms that I need to accommodate one is my actual personal home theater listening room if you will then I want to have two channel audio in my home theater or integrated with my home theater I've been researching a lot kind of know what I need to do. just need that nudge from somebody with some experience and yes that's the right ticket. Far as I can tell there's no high-end stores around here.

@killacallahan1

3 жыл бұрын

@Fat Rat just found out a friend of mine that has his own business has wholesale line on some top audio gear like definitive technology speakers and audio control amplifiers/ processors and receivers.gear.. I can almost get those for half price.

@killacallahan1

3 жыл бұрын

@Fat Rat it's not his store he just got access to wholesale equipment he don't have the assets to let me hear it. I just got access to the discount. Looking to save on speakers and amplifiers so I can get that PS audio stellar static at least that's the plan buddy

@killacallahan1

3 жыл бұрын

@Fat Rat Thanks brother, I'll hit you back once I get it in my home. I must confess I'm a PS audio fanboy and I must have me some PS audio in my home no matter what.

Paul tells truth

I look forward to watching you every day, Paul.

@Paulmcgowanpsaudio

3 жыл бұрын

You're very kind! Thanks.

I can't agree with equipment retailing for $1-$3k retail sounding as good as some $20k pieces. I have a Burmester preamp that very few pieces can come close to. I've also heard some Luxman pieces from integrateds, separates, and sources that are just extraordinary. I do agree that expensive speakers will always be the best starting point, because without them, expensive/better gear can not make a difference.

Paul as also a Midwest beginner, this was very helpful for those of us that havnt lived in high end audio. Can you do a video of the basic “flow” of a high fi? Form source(record, etc) to speaker? Why does a high end system take up a book shelf of components? Can finally dip my toes into this world, but I don’t have any bearings to head to.

Very much the same in the cycling world.

Law of Diminishing Returns !!!

TDLR: Law of Diminishing Returns.

As with any new hobby you endeavor into which requires equipment, you will need to dip you toe in the pool to check the water to see if you want to get in to the deep end of the pool in the future. Getting away from the mainstream department store brands into entry level esoteric brands is a step in the right direction.

@mikenoble8517

3 жыл бұрын

It seems totally ironic but just to hear equipment is the complete opposite of diminishing returns. The sayng goes "IF THE MOUNTAIN WILL NOT COME TO MOHAMMED, MOHAMMED WILL GO TO THE MOUNTAIN." One must spend the money upfront to hear the equipment. Hence the problem of actually hearing the equipment. Events like AXPONA and the like are now ground zero. Nothing is convenient in comparing with your own ears HIFI anymore. I hate to say that term "back in the day" but I used to bring my amp preamp or what ever to a local HIFI dealer to hear/demo a set of speakers. In the end it is all about your ears and your perception of what sounds good. SO the best formula for success is to play play both ends of a dimensioning returns game.

@zulumax1

3 жыл бұрын

@@mikenoble8517 Fortunately I have a HIFI store here in Gig Harbor Washington here where I live. Large gatherings of people at events I don’t see happening for awhile due to Covid19.

I've been saying the same thing for a lot of years. "Not much difference in sound Between a 10K system and a 50K system"

@djnikx1

3 жыл бұрын

When it comes to amps.

i would love to see some separates in the sprout line-price-form range, like a pre amplifier-heaphone amp, phono stage, dac and power amp

Shorter signal and better parts. And same type of sound through entire range, and not resorting to what is popular and taking short cuts. Doing what no one wants to do.

This one leaves me standing at the edge of a cliff..."great system for the money"

Yes sure, but there is the subjective dimension too : at some point you can either love or hate a certain idea of perfection. There is a number of expensive high end gear I have listened to carefully, and - although I get the point - I don't always like the way it sounds. There are times where the best fish in the world won't satisfy a meat lover. And also, perfection can be so boring ...because perfection DOES NOT EXIST, only certain ideas of perfection approaches biased in a certain way.

I feel that doen't answer the question - just explained the ratio between money and quality.

After you hit the mediocre level the old saying goes “You pay a foot to gain an inch”

Do you build speakers like i do on diy. level then you will be amazed at how good speakers you can make for little money. An example. you spend a total of 1000 usd but you have to pay 5000 usd for just as good factory made speakers.

The difference between $2000 amps is far less than the difference between $2000 speakers. Choosing speakers is very much about personal preference. You can have 2 pairs of speakers of similar price and quality, and yet they sound very different from each other. And they both can be great, in different ways.

Young people of today often seem stuck with cheap Bluetooth speakers and those earbuds that came with their smart phone, as they don’t realize that for just tiny money, audiophile sound is quite possible. Just replacing their earbuds can make a huge first step impact. For under US$100 anyone can enter the audiophile world in such way. PS audio should try to capture younger customers with some audiophile earbuds. Next they will buy a Sprout and so on...

LOL, Dude Wipes.

System synergy is way more important than $.

Paul: "I can buy cheezy woofers, two or three bucks out of China...or we can design our own...that's gonna cost a $100, or $200 'cause it's got all the bells and whistles... I thought Expensive woofers were suppose to LEAVE OUT all the whistles! Sorry, I just couldn't pass this one up :>)

2:59

I appreciate all of those thoughts. But there are a lot of other factors Paul left out. It's clearly not just about the price of electronics components. A few examples: Expected sales volume. It costs a lot of upfront money to pay engineers to design the component. If you're targeting a niche, low volume market, each unit you sell is going to have to cost a lot more to make up for that upfront engineering cost. Brand trust. People are willing to pay more for a product designed by a brand they trust. Sales channel. Products sold by dealers are going to have to cost more because the distributor and retailer need to make their margins, too. I think it's a little disingenuous for Paul to pretend like cost is mostly driven by the cost of electronic components. That's clearly not true.

Im in canada the sprout is about double the price of 600 i dont think its worth 1200 theres other choices for half that price tag

@russellleahy

3 жыл бұрын

@Fat Rat i think cambridge or nad audio is a better choice for the money

@russellleahy

3 жыл бұрын

@Fat Rat nice i went for a nad d3020v2 3 months ago fantastic sound no distortion

@russellleahy

3 жыл бұрын

@Fat Rat yes it is the verticle one i use both dac and phone it is rated real good for what i read about it i only wanted 2 chanel i wasn't sure how it would work but bought it any ways.

@russellleahy

3 жыл бұрын

@Fat Rat was using a 20 year old yamaha av 100×5 it still works real good the nad is still better in every way amazing sound

@russellleahy

3 жыл бұрын

@Fat Rat yes and i think nad is better quality also is what i was looking for looked at cambridge also

I've been a HIFIholic for 30 years. Always believed a system is built from the speakers backwards. Listening to Paul should reinforce this for most. A note on diminishing returns. 10X where X equals speaker cables. 100Y where Y equals power cables.

@mikenoble8517

3 жыл бұрын

It seems totally ironic but just to hear equipment is the complete opposite of diminishing returns. The sayng goes "IF THE MOUNTAIN WILL NOT COME TO MOHAMMED, MOHAMMED WILL GO TO THE MOUNTAIN." One must spend the money upfront to hear the equipment. Hence the problem of actually hearing the equipment. Events like AXPONA and the like are now ground zero. Nothing is convenient in comparing with your own ears HIFI anymore. I hate to say that term "back in the day" but I used to bring my amp preamp or what ever to a local HIFI dealer to hear/demo a set of speakers. In the end it is all about your ears and your perception of what sounds good. SO the best formula for success is to play play both ends of a diminishing returns game.

@user-od9iz9cv1w

3 жыл бұрын

But it makes a difference and are easy and cheap to build your own. Interconnects first, power cables second and speaker last.

@mikenoble8517

3 жыл бұрын

@@user-od9iz9cv1w Agree. I make my own or find a deal and make two cables out of one. I was referencing the vast majority who pay retail and lack the knowledge, time or desire to go your way. I currently use silver plated 18AWG multi-strand shielded Teflon wrapped aircraft interconnect signal wire for the low watt horn speakers. I have tried so so many types. Nordost Kimber Kabel XlO Monster and home made OFC cooper and pure silver etc. As for power cable it is all BS. I ran a direct line from the main panel tot the outlets supporting the equipment. I use a PS Audio power conditioner that converts AC to DC and back to AC. Clean power starts ((after)) the power conditioner.

@user-od9iz9cv1w

3 жыл бұрын

@@mikenoble8517 agreed. The aircraft cabling is an interesting idea.

It's the old rule of diminishing returns.

@stephensmith3111

3 жыл бұрын

@Fat Rat Time catches up with us all.

@stephensmith3111

3 жыл бұрын

@Fat Rat Some say yes and some say absolutely. ;-)

What happened to the upload schedule?this channel is flailing and thrashing lately

@michaelturner4457

3 жыл бұрын

Maybe the company isn't selling so much. With Covid lockdowns etc, not so many can afford to be spending $5000 or whatever on HiFi equipment probably.

Absolutely true - speakers don’t suffer from diminishing returns nearly as quickly as electronics. The best companies build all their transducers in house rather than cheaper outsourced parts used by the majority of speaker “manufacturers”. The cost to build in house is huge but the QC and ability to customize to achieve seamless integration across multiple drivers is unique. There are some obvious things to look for in electronics - XLR balanced designs operating at pro-audio signal levels (up to 18 volts) are far superior to cheap RCA designs at 2 volts. The speaker cabinet is not a big deal as long as proper design principles are followed - cosmetics can add significantly to this. Despite all the fanciest materials available - mdf, wood, bitumen damping sheets work extremely well as does aluminium. Bracing can add cost but is often important. Thin wall light weight speaker designs will always have a characteristic coloration.

Howdy. With all due respect. I don't think the clip aswers the question WHAT. The clip just states the obvious THAT. More expensive is usually better. I think the real answer is Fidelity. However, breaking up fidelity into all its parameters would most likely require a semester of lectures ... In high regards.

easy.... the LOGO

@googoo-gjoob

3 жыл бұрын

@Fat Rat , rcvd...yes...hooked up, no. swimming in despair.... medical troubles

All for money and all will fall down.

Holy crap the last time I came this early I got slapped

@InsideOfMyOwnMind

3 жыл бұрын

Old comment but liked it anyways.

@RealAnonymousse

3 жыл бұрын

Imagine a world where that kind of behaviour is acceptable from a significant other

I've seen 5 seconds of this video and I say... The POWER SUPPLY!!!! :) And a lot of other things. But the power supply provides 70% of the quality. Whatever it is you want to do with audio, start with a power supply without ANY compromises.

@C--A

3 жыл бұрын

You see so many class D amplifiers low and high priced using a (SMPS) switch mode power supply. The majority of Hypex and the recent Purifi amplifiers all use SMPS. Yes a SMPS can be good if well designed and implemented. But most of the time the manufacturer is using it because it's very cheap. Trying to save money knowing casual buyers knowledge is poor. My class D stereo power amplifier using a Hypex amp module is different. No SMPS, instead two linear power supply's, one for each channel. With a massive toroidal transformer supplying more than enough juice for both channels.

@renejansen5939

3 жыл бұрын

@@C--A Toroidal transformers, one of the best (and oldest!) transformer types :)

@musicman8270

3 жыл бұрын

Speakers. Audio marches on good speakers, if they're not right nothing else will be.

@renejansen5939

3 жыл бұрын

@@musicman8270 True. But great speakers sound like crap driven by a poor amplifier.

@musicman8270

3 жыл бұрын

@@renejansen5939 My first "system" was a compact stereo with the record player in the top, speakers made out of particle board. I put a decent (not expensive) pair of speakers in the system and it sounded a thousand times better. Won't work miracles but decent speakers can help any system, because the range between quality and crap amps is not as wide as u might think

Roll Trump!