I like having options. So it's Japanese amps with British speakers for me 😄

@ryanray6215

3 жыл бұрын

Exactly !!!

"It should be addressed somewhere else than by tone controls." Sorry Paul, but I disagree with you on that, because sometimes (actually "many" times) one just cannot address this somewhere. ALL speakers have resonances. All apartments, rooms and houses boost some frequencies and attenuate some others. And not everybody can buy a house that fits his speakers and amplifiers. And change house because he changed his tonearm cartridge. I remember when I was working as a circuit designer. Someone from Montréal's La Place des Arts had to face a difficult problem. A very purist classical quatuor was to present pieces of chamber music. So far no problem. The problem occurred when the administration realized there was a schedule conflict : the small Cinquième Salle was already booked which meant this small orchestra had to perform in the immense Salle Wilfrid-Pelletier. Which meant we would almost not hear them unless there was an amplification system. Although having an amplification system is no problem, the problem was to have one that was powerful enough to fill this very large hall and precise enough to tell a Stradivarius from a Gliga Maestro and a Steinway from a Baldwin. There were, of course, excellent speakers but they were not powerful enough and there were powerful speakers but not suitable for purist classic. Using many low-power reference speakers distributes across the large opera hall was out of the question due to virtually unsolvable phasing problems. The responsible for this concert came to us for help. I asked him to bring us his actual speakers so we could measure them and figure a solution. He brought us four large Voice of the Theater. We traced the frequency curves and I designed a filter circuit that filled the voids where the response was too weak and smoothed the peaks where there we resonances. Four days later, when he came back, he did not even recognize the sound from his speakers!!! Today, there are some low lever sound processors (call them preamps, active crossovers ar whatever you want) with controllable digital filters that allow such bandwidth tailoring with very low distortion. And, since they use the "time-window mean" principle instead od the "infinite summation" (which is the equivalent of analog filters), there is no phasing issue. For those who cannot afford new speakers, or a new home when they change speakers, this is a solution to consider.

I bought a Cambridge CXA80 amp specifically for the tone controls that it has. The amp sounds great without using them for most music, but I have a lot of old punk albums that need a little tweaking to sound good on my system. I like the option of having tone controls on an amp, even if I never end up using them.

@gyrgrls

3 жыл бұрын

IMHO, the best manual tone control is a parametric eq between the preamp and amp. Sadly, many integrated amps do not feature a pair of separate line out and line in jacks, so it is a little more difficult to add an EQ to the system.

Every amplifier even from PS audio without tone control is tone tuned in some way, if its not every "high end" audio amplifier will have the same sound! Many "cheap" even mini HiFi components from Denon or JVC... with tone control have very, very good sound. Once I was in the story about "High End" audio, but today just want to listen music when I shave my face, when work on my PC, when doing something in my yard, I can not just seed in front of High End system and listen every sound and forget about music its self. Tone controls are great to adjust sound in your room, not every album-CD have the same bass or treble level so one time to time I need to adjust sound, when I switch from CD to LP, HD video... There is NO High End sound, there is only sound you like and sound you do not like, again every High End system is tone tuned even if you not have tone controls. Thanks.

I remember having a recording of one my favorite singing groups that was badly out of balance, etc., but having an 70's tube amp I was happy to be able make adjustments to the sound to MY Liking. Again I'll say its my listening environment, my space, my money...

Can you imagine a HD tv without colour or brightness control? Of course not. Not all content has the same quality. Same with records.

@666Necropsy

4 жыл бұрын

i can see im not the only one who disagrees here.

@gyrgrls

3 жыл бұрын

@@666Necropsy Likewise. A bad recording is a bad recording... all the way from source, to mixdown, to master. While no tone control can ultimately fix it during playback, it can certainly help.

@666Necropsy

3 жыл бұрын

@@gyrgrls on a regular basis, i am not adjusting my tone control for a lack of a certain frequency. its quiet the opposite. at night and early in the morning when the rest of my family is sleeping i turn the bass all the way down. this lets me listen at a good volume without waking everyone up. i am sure most people know lower frequency sounds travel further and through walls fairly easily.

@666Necropsy

3 жыл бұрын

@@gyrgrls we dont need to get to the many short falls of bad recordings to want tone control. lol

@gyrgrls

3 жыл бұрын

@@666Necropsy Ouch. Busted for my dry sarcasm. I guess tapes and CDs aren't the only things I need to learn to master.

I’m a little late in seeing this post but I have to chime in here as it touches on a subject that I have a strong opinion about. I have studied audio engineering and have been an audiophile for 50 years now. I have worked in the recording studio business installing and repairing consoles, tape recorders, speakers and so on and am a retired electronics engineer. I have to say that the justification for not having tone controls is BS and is really about a marketing tactic based on the false idea that tone controls can only degrade what you hear. There are MANY good reasons to use tone controls to improve your listening enjoyment, and most of them are not even related to your speakers. The biggies are: 1. The acoustics of your room 2. The positioning of your speakers 3. Your listening position 4. Your speakers or headphones frequency response 5. The chosen EQ in the mixing and mastering of the recording 6. Your taste for the type of music being played 7. The volume level of the music being played 8. Your hearing (I need some HF boost these days) Of lesser impact but still worth having some amount of tone control are: 9. The frequency response of your cartridge (for vinyl records) 10. The accuracy of the RIAA playback EQ of your phono preamp 11. The frequency response of your preamp, amp, DAC (these should not have any significant impact as they should be very flat) 12. Your interconnecting cables (these will have very minimal impact if any) All that said, I have found the typical bass, treble and loudness controls to be generally insufficient, but better than nothing. Given that many “purist” brands do not have any tone controls, luckily there is a simple fix available from Schiit Audio called the Loki for just $149. This level of tone control could be added very inexpensively into a preamp or integrated amp. When you are talking about a “high end” component, the least that the manufacturer could do would be to incorporate useful tone controls, given the price of this equipment. We all need to think about the big picture and not be suckered into the marketing BS. I’m done. 😒

People who are tone control snobs make me laugh because 90% of them have done little to nothing to correct horrible room acoustics ,tone controls are simply a tool ,people don't think twice of having their HT processor modify the crap out of the sound ,or to use room correction software . I cannot believe this guy is claiming use of tone controls means a shit type speaker ,but that's not true ,I own over 11,000 heavyweight albums and each are recorded differently ,about 90% of the time I leave my tone controls in neutral because with 7 foot line arrays every inch of the room is the sweet spot ,however every once in a while I run across a CD where the recording engineer pushed the full audible spectrum to the max and needs the bloated bass from 40 to 50hz lowered ,try accomplishing that without tone controls ,my line arrays are every bit as revealing as PS audios listening room ( Mcintosh XR-290 triple column line arrays ) and I'm happy to have tone controls ,in fact the reason I've chosen Mcintosh C-2200 Tube preamps for all 3 of my systems ,even my Home theater is because Mcintosh installs the best tone control pots in the industry and I'm able to shut them out of the loop at any time . Don't listen to this Audiophile snobbery saying tone controls are no good ,I find it extremely odd that a mid fi manufacturer would be bashing tone controls when their closest compitition in mid fi land would be Emotiva Audio who makes their statement balanced preamp with tone control circuits ,and Mcintosh uses tone control circuits and Mc equipment compared to PS is comparing a bus pass to a Lamborghini.

Shouldn't that be my option! I'm not buying something that doesn't have controls that I can adjust the sound to my liking ,not somebody else!

Lack of bass: Our hearing just lacks bass when we play at low volume. Lack of treble: Our hearing just loses treble as we ages. Not having tone controls means some of us will hear music narrow-band at low volumes. Your US$200,000 system will need tone controls for these reasons also and anyone designing such system can most surely do a bypass switch that doesn't harm the music. Thanks.

I need the tone controls on my Cambridge amp as my speakers are too warm (one of the pairs, at least), so I can bring some of the bass down and raise the brightness to get the right balance. I am looking to get a more suitable single pair of speakers, so I hope to not need the tone controls at that point.

Paul, luv almost of of your videos. The others I take and respect your opinion. That said my point of contention regarding this video are as follows: 1. We don't all hear or like what we hear the same so having tone control options especially considering the cost of equipment at the purest level. 2. Most speakers have their own sound signature e.g. forward, laid back, neutral etc and tone controls can adjust for that. 3. There's other equipment and or source material involved that have their own characteristics like streaming, phono, CD's etc. So really why not let the end user decide? Makes sense to me. Thanks Paul 👍🏽

oh man ...this is a good one. i will point out only that in recording there are no absolute practiced standards . i everyone recorded with the same stuff in the same places the same way then there would be no need for bandpass compensation. where and when and how much? that's a long one.

To me tone controls are for tweaking the sound of records I find to be poorly mixed or mastered. So for example: if I like bass and an album barely has any bass I turn the bass up some. I tried the purist approach and it didn't work for me because too many albums are mixed or mastered in a way that isn't completely pleasing to my ears. Now if every album was mixed and mastered to audiophile standards then I would never use tone controls, but that's never gonna happen.

I tried very hard to notice any distortion or other ill effects with my Yamaha A-S1100 when I introduce the tone controls into the circuit. I can’t hear any degradation. In fact, it sounds really flat and lifeless with it in straight-line mode. I need my tone controls for my personal taste in sound.

Why don't hi-fi systems use a 4 band parametric with adjustable Q width? My DDA and Midas desks have this on 40 channels. How hard could it be to incorporate this on a simple stereo or 5.1 system and have the DSP do the rest?

Yes , There is a tremendous amount of excellent music that was recorded badly . If you enjoy good music you should be able to make adjustments to compensate for this . If you only care about boasting about how great your system is you would only play music that will showcase the capabilities of your system . Why would you spend a fortune on a sound system that will only sound good on audiophile quality recordings ? There are so many outstanding live recordings that were not properly engineered .A true music lover will require a versatile system that allows adjustments to enjoy all recordings . That is the point as far as i am concerned .To enjoy your music at a higher level . To extract the absolute best from your favorite recordings .Spending a fortune on a system that will only sound good with audiophile recordings limits your library considerably . Are you interested in getting the best sound from the best recordings or the best sound from your favorite music ? The ideal system will sound good regardless of what is playing . I am not an audiophile .I am a music lover who demands quality sound reproduction . To achieve the best sound from my music library i need tone adjustments . The minute losses i may or may not hear in overall accuracy are of small consequence to the overall experience i am trying to achieve . I want to extract the absolute best from the recording . I am talking about the chills , and the goosebumps . That is what i am looking for .Not the my system is better because all of my components are recommended by magazine a or b. Yes , anything added to the original signal will cost you in regards to accuracy and noise . Sometimes you will have to exchange a bishop for a pawn to get the win . In the end, a win is a win .

@ninethirtyone4264

4 жыл бұрын

@@FrankiesMarket Perhaps because you fear that in reality you can't really tell what sounds "good" and if you gave yourself an option to correct for a weaknes in your system, or an error in the recording, you would ultimately fail because your subjectivity, wich you are desperately trying to silence by repeating to yourself that you are a purist and spending fortune on audiophile gear, would ultimately kick in for you and everyone to see that you are just a regular dude lying to himself that he is something more. This is why anyone can be an audiophile but not everyone can be a sound engineer.

@ninethirtyone4264

4 жыл бұрын

@@FrankiesMarket I didn't even mention bad mastered recordings in my comment, eq is nowhere sufficient to redeem a bad recording. I was hitting on the fact that you find adding EQ to your system spoiling your sound. You see, your speakers nor your amp are perfect, but for a moment let's pretend they are. You are probably listening your songs from different sound sources, and even if you are, a lot of your songs were probably at some point transfered from a different medium, none of wich are transparent. Compared to your digital library, different tape types sound different, r2r sounds different, vinyl sounds different, every single playback device in your system is going to leave a footprint on the sound. If you own the same song on multiple mediums each will have a different character, and yet, you would play them all the same without any correction and call yourself a purist.

Interesting. Quick question Paul: Why does Sprout have that bass bump at 70 odd Hz then? IMO, the tone controls are not necessarily making up for deficiencies in the system always, but for those in your room, recordings, or tailoring it per one's listening preferences. You might want to up the treble on some natural sounding speakers for techno music, or tone it down for some genres on some horn loaded speakers. Both the speaker types are not deficient per se. Thanks

@editorjuno

6 жыл бұрын

The Sprout's bass bump is just an acknowledgement that it will typically be driving bookshelf-size speakers with relatively small woofers that can use a little help on the low end. Since it's a PS product, one would assume that bump is implemented wisely, with a minimum effect on phasing, distortion, etc.

@MusicwithMohit

6 жыл бұрын

I dont know how you can assume that? One could drive bookshelves with dual woofers or even small floorstanders with it, but anyway, why don't let the user decide what one wants to do with it? I have heard that the Sprout's bass bump is pretty terrible, in fact bookshelf speakers dont need a bump at 70Hz, but most of them at 50Hz where the bass rolls off quickly. You can always assume that it is PS Audio so would have been done correctly, which is why some people are happy to pay $800 for a class D amp based amp that can be had for much cheaper.

@editorjuno

6 жыл бұрын

A typical modern bookshelf speaker has a 6.5" or 8" woofer and starts to lose low-end well above 50 Hz. BTW, I don't think the Sprout's bass bump is a particularly good idea, especially since it affects the unit's line level analog output jack -- an extra switch or control for that on the back panel for that feature would have made it a much more attractive product IMO. Of course the Sprout doesn't really sell for $800 -- $500 or so is a typical street price.

@MusicwithMohit

6 жыл бұрын

I dont know what your point is, but this whole purist thing is BS. No speaker has a 100% flat response, period. Let the user decide how he wants to listen to music and not impose how he should. Go to a club and do you want the EQ off? If the DJ who created the music wants enhanced bass, should the recording be like it? If it is that bass boosted, it will distort badly on regular speakers. So, should one get big 18" speakers for home or turn bass up or down as per one's speakers? It is like saying ideally one's skin should be perfect, so the director/producer will not allow any make-up on the set. This whole purist thing is utter BS. Also, the Sprout as $500 is not different from an overpriced Bose...it is completely worthless at that price point.

@editorjuno

6 жыл бұрын

Yeah, regardless of the golden ears involved it's based on a couple of off-the-self ICs and IMO overpriced. No "purist" here -- IMO there's no speaker anyone can reasonably afford that wouldn't benefit from a little carefully applied EQ, exactly how it's applied would depend on both the speaker itself and the room's acoustics. No "purist" here, that's for sure.

When you put music very low ( neighbourg) I can adjust treble or bass for the sound I want !!!!

Great amps , like A-S3000 have pure direct sound plus separate tone controls . Why? What if your source let's say a cd it is not recorded properly , missing some bass or trebles ? That is why .

I like the way the Luxman and Accuphase do tone control, you can use them if you want/need, but if not, you just use line direct, and all respect to Paul, but I think that both Accuphase and Luxman are on the same level if not a bit higher than PS Audio in audio quality, in my mind it would be better for companies to go the Accuphase/Luxman route and give the buyer better control of the many bad recorded music out there. Sometimes I think that with the purists wave taken over high end audio, the buyer was the looser, maybe high end would be much more interesting if there were more high end intergrated amps with phone and headphone out + well done tone controls that one could bypass at will.

@jonathansturm4163

6 жыл бұрын

"Luxman and Accuphase do tone control, you can use them if you want/need, but if not, you just use line direct..." Again whining because Paul doesn't do what you want him to. He does what his customers want. You miss out on nothing because of that. You have pointed out that Luxman and Accuphase provide what you want. If you are purchasing one of them, what difference does it make what others do, or don't do?

The latest powerful high end amplifiers are usually used with newer larger high end speakers. They are set up in big rooms where the speakers can be moved around until the optimum sound is achieved. These components are designed and built to sound fantastic without tone controls when used this way. On the other hand, with less powerful, less expensive equipment in average homes, often times there are fewer options for speaker positioning. Bass and treble controls are going to be essential in this case.

@reddenitup

2 жыл бұрын

I have high end components and all it does is reveal that much more “technical deficiencies”….I wouldn’t be NEARLY as happy without my sweet E.Q. to shape the sound the way I want to hear it…

Hi and Thanks for a great channel I still use my Kenwood pre amp Basic C1 and a stage amplifier M1 and really love the sound from this old amps and don´t have to use my the tone controls is at flat on my system

Thanks for all the video content Paul! I truly enjoy them all! I have a Luxman integrated amp and love the tone controls!

Thanks Paul for your enlightening and interesting videos! I have been a "hobby audiophile" since 25 years. My first good stereo was a NAD 2x25W amplifier and with the associated CD-player, it was around 1993 or so. The speakers were JPW P1. I was totally amazed and happy by the sound quality and clearness compared to many traditional stereo systems. That 2x25w amplifier really could perform well despite the low power on the paper. Often I didn't need to use the tone controls, but now and then I found it good to increase the bass when I played CDs with very low bass in the recording. I also did several attempts to compare between using the tone defeat function and without it with bass and treble adjusted at 0. It was totally impossible for me to ever detect any difference. Since then I have changed stereo equipments a few times and my present stereo since a few months is a Rega Brio/Apollo combo. The speakers are KEF Q350. I am very satisfied with this combination and it feels nice(it gives a bit high-end feeling) to have an amplifier without any tone control feature. But yes; there are occasions now and then I play some CD-recording or KZread clip with very bad bass reproduction and it would be nice to increase the bass a bit. The KEF speakers provide very clear treble and with some recordings it feels too much so sometimes I would like to decrease the treble. But I know I can't have everyting perfect and the higher the stereo equipment quality is the more it reveals bad recordings. Regards, Patric, Sweden

I would look at my room acoustics and use a rta (smaart) with a good rta mic (earthworks) to measure the room and treat the room. Then find speakers that will fit the space.

So am I understanding correctly that Paul classifies a banded graphic equaliser function as tone control (as opposed to a bass and/or treble knob)? And is he therefore against graphic equalisers too? If that's the case I'm afraid I'm with those disagreeing with him.... Each to their own I guess...

My Parasound P7 pre-amp has tone controls, but are totally out of the circuit, unless activated. And if turned on, they need only minor tweaking. Which I never use.

I take the opposite approach to Paul's. These controls can enhance enjoyment of many recordings and sound systems considerably but their benefit is limited because they are coarse adjustments. They can get you into the ballpark but additionally the finer control of an equalizer is needed too. The problem with tone controls alone for example is that if your recording or speakers aren't producing enough deep bass, turning up the bass control will boost the mid and even upper bass at the same time so in that case you are trading one frequency response problem for another. Among equalizers I don't like rotary knob controls and I prefer frequency band equalizers over parametric equalizers. If you have tone controls and they make your recordings and equipment sound better to you then use them.

I have a special pre amp that I designed myself .. it's dead flat ..zero phase shift and has a completely separate active tone control network that can be switched in or out of the main signal path through the pre amp . This tone network although it's active has unity gain when set to 'flat' .... I find this network to be quite effective when listening to some ( not all ) vinyl records ...

I find it impossible to upgrade my 20 year old amp (Audiolab 8000A) because most high-end amps not only have no tone controls but also don't seem to have a balance control which I find indispensable. Why?

@SJMessinwithBoats

6 жыл бұрын

mikeos1 (i am no pro) you I know what you mean, 35 years ago I visited high end stores and was totally freaked over no tone controls. These days I wouldn't want them, it would indicate that's there's something wrong with your speakers. Plus, they can only mean that the piece of equipment has something less than perfect in the signals path. And what freqs should you center the controls at? ( It's "direct in" and make up for it somewhere else) I also thought that it was probable that high enders would only listen to audiophile rated material, while they sat with their tea and crumpets.

@ryanray6215

6 жыл бұрын

Try A-S3000 , You will love it .

@mikeos1

6 жыл бұрын

a touch out of my pay grade, but thanks!

@ryanray6215

6 жыл бұрын

You're welcome . I'm using ONKYO A-9050 , it is way more affordable . Very happy with it .

It's about the recordings, not the system or speakers. I like having tone controls to deal with deficiencies in the media/music I am listening to. Perhaps that makes me less of an audiophile and more of a music listener. I have a Quad preamp with sensible tone controls and being able to tweak the sound on specific recordings is a blessing. Looking at perhaps going to a McIntosh down the road for the same reason.

i miss the old days when we had treble and bass knobs..it was that simple...now we have to get lost in menus submenus sub sub menus etc etc

My system has no tone controls. It can bring out whats good in the worst recordings. I do have a Rappaport preamp with tone controls and I used them to try to boost the bass to make a CD sound more like an LP but it didn't work.

I only use tone controls to compensate bad sounding LPs or CDs. I cut frequencies instead f boosting them

@mikeos1

6 жыл бұрын

exactly!

I had equalizers in the past.i have had this amp now for 30 years.with variable loudness and cd direct. Eq made it worse.what I found was the problem was speakers. Went through 3 sets to find the right balance. Then adjust room. Currently using bookshelf monitors. And a sub. Want more base. Turn up the sub.this keeps the signal going out of amp unmodified. And bypassing tone controls. As far as recordings go .yeah I try to keep to good recorded music. Some of the old 50s and 60s can be difficult to listen flat.

Tone control, bass management, DSP, and room correction are basically doing the same thing but through a different way. These thing with clever algorithm can do amazing things these days. Like DCS, Trinnov, and Kii Three these things can fix problems that is not possible to fix physically and electronically.

Phase distortions… vinyl and RIAA correction? EQ in analog tape machines? EQ used in the big famous recording desks? Stuff we all love. And then we care about a tone control? My $0.02 cents: the extra circuitry needed for the tone controls can degrade the sound. You got the phase shifts probably for free when you bought the recording. They appear already at the input of your amp. So confusion here, as phase distortions are part of the game in most recordings. But I love my totally linear mic preamps and mixer, they’re absolutely world class. I’m pretty sure the lack of phase distortions does play a role here. My conclusion: a tone control alters the sound, and that’s what they’re meant for. Not a bad thing in itself. Good to have them at hand, for specific listening situations.

volume and quality of recording no matter the media will need tone control. But if all sound recording was high quality made for ps audio hardware then no need for tone control.

I use tone controls but if I have to adjust more than a few notches, you have an issue. I agree Paul. I have a system in my theater upstairs and have tone controls on my tiny mixer. I tried putting a receiver on with tone controls and could not find any improvement using them and I heavily modified the speakers I use as drivers were stolen and replaced with different units.

Paul... it's so very soothing to listen to your voice. You surely do not need any tone controls !!!

Video on Mark Levinson cello Grand Master set up. kzread.info/dash/bejne/fKVo17hpg8jRdco.html In the video the owner got the setup free from his mate. He was using a portable CD player as source. This is a video of how Audio designer fix up the setup for him for minimum cost.

Take a look at the Schiit Audio Loki. I bought one because I don't have a "listening room" for my stereo; I have a family room and my wife has filled it full of furniture, which I have to overcome. I love this little box, my only complaint is that it doesn't have XLR connections. It works perfectly if placed between the DAC and the amp. One thing that people in certain parts of the country don't realize, including me before moving down south, is that not everyone has a basement to readily create a listening environment. Would I like to add on a $50k "listening room" with a single chair? Heck yeah! But until that money grows on a tree in my backyard I'm left with adapting what I have to my existing space. That's what purist don't get. Can I afford a BHK preamp and amp? Yeah, if I don't spend the money on sq footage. :)

@billwillard9410

5 жыл бұрын

William Pietrak Good solution if you need a little tweaking for your own personal space, if you’ve found that there’s nothing wrong with your components but you just don’t like the sound. My older ears like a little treble boost that many would find too bright. I set it and forget it. It’s your stereo; do what makes you happy.

Sooooooo, if the object to your listening system is to recreate some semblance to how the original music was actually recorded or sounded live. I have been to almost 200 concerts. 110 of them symphony orchestra. (I used to set up for the SI symphony orchestra.) Everyone uses some form of tone control. For the orchestra, the Conductor is the tone control. For jazz, rock, and R&B, there is a sound man manning a sound board. When they record in a studio, same thing. Since everyone's room is different. Yet all of the same stereo setup is the same. It will sound different in different environments. IMHO it's perfectly fine to use minor adjustments in the tone control. To adjust the music to what "you" want to hear. The conductor is going to do that with the orchestra. The soundman is is going to do that with the concert. That's fact.

Actually, a "loudness control" is a contour compensation trick for the _volume control_ , which follows a psychoacoustic model based on the _Fletcher-Munson_ curve. Differences in speaker sensitivity can skew this compensation curve, however, as can perceived loudness due to other intrinsic and extrinsic factors. Any decent amp will have a "volume control", and optionally a "bass / sel tone" or "loudness" compensation switch. Cheaper amps simply access a tap off of the volume control pot, which gives the worst results, arguably. I usually turn it off, especially for low listening volumes with speakers of less than 90 dB sensitivity rating.

The "EQ by track" exists in the Poweramp app (this allows the tweaks mentioned in the signal, negating the need for tone control).

@gyrgrls

3 жыл бұрын

If you like listening through a smart phone... UGH!

The most horrible reason why tone controls don't work is the fixed frequency, a high and low that probably isn't the band (aid :) that needs addressed. Room acoustics and non-linear frequency response wishes of big thump listeners is maybe why. I am constantly told my music lacks bass by those big thump addicts, they need those tone controls to be happy. But even today, a stellar musician friend still hands me her phone to listen to a new singer she found....through that 10cent speaker....I would rather listen to silence. The lack of attention to sound even by my pro musician friends still astounds me.

@StewartMarkley

4 жыл бұрын

Wilderness Music she is about the music, not the sound.

I have a system without passive crossovers, no high end equipment, and no bass or treble. I guess I eq through crossover points and amp gains. Not a mainstream idea, but each driver gets it's own amp electronically controlled by active crossover. Once it's tweaked for the enviroment with amp gain, everything I throw at it is satisfying! Even songs recorded long ago with no bass at all.

just imagine a TV set without brighness contrast hue color controls,,you just need them..well i think you need tone controls in your sound system..i want to set tone as my ears like NOT as the engineer thinks i may like

The ability to adjust tonal response is a sensible option, all speakers have deficiencies, they are not bad in any sense

@jonathansturm4163

6 жыл бұрын

"all speakers have deficiencies, they are not bad in any sense..." Wanna bet? I shared a flat (apartment) with the chorus master of an opera company who despite our remote location (Tasmania) was congratulated by a visiting music aficionado from the US on having rehearsed the best Carmen chorus he'd ever heard. The chorus consisted of local amateurs, but the soloist was Lauris Elms, a renowned contralto. Having her sing in your living room was an experience of a lifetime! My flatmate's record player had built-in speakers and the cabinet was made from _unbraced_ 3.2mm thick Masonite. (Hardboard in the UK). The walls of the cabinet would visibly move with anything approaching mid-bass and actual bass was effectively non-existent except for that caused by feedback between the speakers and the record player tone arm! Somehow he managed to convert that horror into something he clearly enjoyed with his brain. I couldn't. How did I put up with it for a year? I had my own system in my bedroom with a pair of Maruni electrostatic headphones.

I’d love to hear about the Mark Levinson story..🤙🙃

@jonathansturm4163

6 жыл бұрын

"I’d love to hear about the Mark Levinson story." Will this do? _Not_ letting Paul's story out of the bag. danielhertz.com/images/pdf/MusicMan2.pdf

what audio system is perfect? no control? all i want is control.

I love warmer speakers and then turn up the Treble to my taste....

I love my bass and treble controls.

I solved this problem with a Schiit Lokius EQ. It sits transparently on the line and If a recording is problematic I engage the EQ and adjust things, otherwise I have it switched out and it has no bearing on the pathway. Perfect.

After buying or building the best possible speakers, matching amplifiers, assembling clean signal sources and improving room acoustics, there may still be frequency nonlinearities - because physics. Some of us listen to our music in rooms that are used for more than one purpose. Or live with people that have different priorities. This can result in compromise. If carefully crafted signal frequency response adjustments make the listening experience better, I think it is expedient to do it. This makes use of "normal" tone controls unnecessary. B.T.W. The Neutron app on my cell phone has per-track parametric equalization available.

@jonathansturm4163

6 жыл бұрын

"Neutron app on my cell phone has per-track parametric equalization available." I've ripped all of my CDs, most of my vinyl LPs and play through Foobar 2000. My parametric eq is here: sourceforge.net/projects/equalizerapo/ As is usual with high-end audio the price is far too high. Doubles every day in fact.

With respect to Paul, this is nonsense. Well, some of it is. Particularly if you listen to vinyl, you will need to equalize somewhere along the line. The degradation resulting from phase shift caused by a tone control is a very small matter in comparison with the enormous differences in equalization from record to record. Most companies that offer tone controls also provide bypass functions, so you can just turn them off if not needed. One reason high end companies don't provide them is that it is more expensive to include them, particularly if the controls are well (properly) implemented. My recommendation to newer audiophiles would be to ignore this advice. You'll enjoy your systems much more if you have some control over how it sounds. I've gone the purist route myself and it can be extremely frustrating. Why limit yourself?

@Diatonic5th

6 жыл бұрын

Agreed, the sound quality of vinyl is wildly unpredictable. The pressing of the album alone can have a huge impact on the sound. You won't need tone controls for a label like ECM that takes great care in their pressings, but a lot of other labels use different pressing plants depending on the budget of the project. In my opinion, tone controls are invaluable for any system with a turntable.

Having speakers with slopes but smooth chracteristic (old widerange speakers were much like that ) alows tone controlls to equalize them effectively . That is why tone controls were appreciated in past when they were doing good job but not today, unless one has speaker withoutall those hill and valleys in characteristic.

So how much of a problem would it be to incorporate a relay controlled tape monitor/processor loop (preferably between the input selector and the initial gain stage) into your "purist" line level preamplifier? If you are blessed/cursed with ears so golden that you are greatly distracted and bothered by a relay controlled passive loop/bypass in the signal path, you have my sympathies. True, tone controls (or any additional active circuitry) will to some extent degrade the "purity" of the signal. However, if that signal is compromised to begin with (and it commonly is), it can also make an improvement. Paul's (@ 3:18) track specific digital signal processing as determined by the listener would be great, but as he said would be a "pain in the ass to set up." A little finessing of a couple control knobs in the analog domain is much simpler and can significantly improve the listening experience. And much less expensive than doing an effective acoustic treatment of your listening environment (by trial and error, even if you have the ability to model said environment and select theoretically optimized acoustic treatments, until you actually install the corrective panels/traps/etc. what do you really know?) and/or buying new speakers.

I guess I'm not a purist because I like tone controls but I prefer EQ.

@editorjuno

6 жыл бұрын

EQ is just a more elaborate tone control.

@rlwings

6 жыл бұрын

Do tone controls have a wider effect on the sound spectrum than say the same frequency would on a 10 band EQ? ... Kinda like in video where a 2 point grayscale adjustment affects a wider range of output than does a 10 point. (per slider)

@editorjuno

6 жыл бұрын

That depends on how the tone control circuit is designed, but generally yes, an EQ slider would usually affect a narrower range of frequencies than a typical bass, midrange, or treble control.

Well said Paul, Some facts 1) A tone control is one more stage along the signal path 2) Tone control can never have a flat response (amplitude and phase) even at the "zero" position. The circuitry needed for the bypass is anyway one - or more - added switch 3) Good records + good player + good amplifiers + good loudspeakers do not need any further correction, otherwise they cannot be called "good" My personal experience (I am a self designer/builder of audio devices): I modified an old and relatively commercial amplifier, the Sansui AUD 100. The tone controls as well as the loudness, the high-frequency cut filter, (and the output short-circuit protection) have been removed. The comparison listening before and after the modification was made at different times, of course. However, the difference is quite evident. The modified/simplified version is much better. The schematics before and after the modifications could be found in drive.google.com/drive/folders/1hPmhT94-Qm9GLF0MnEzKGTFAXtuqxiCj?usp=sharing Just for wo could be interested in that

This will, most likely, not be read by anyone because it’s a comment on a video published over two and a half years ago. But, I decided to forge ahead with the exercise in futility anyway. Don’t see 100% of your well-presented and informative videos, Paul, but really appreciate the ones I watch. Please keep up the great work. In regard to tone controls, scanning through the comments, I didn’t notice any reference to the one factor I consider very important…the human factor. More specifically, the “human hearing-change factor”. Briefly, broadest range of human ear hearing occurs sometime between 18 and 20 years of age, then the highs taper down throughout one’s lifetime. As a lifelong musician, my loss was rather imperceptible until late 50’s, early 60’s. At about that time, I replaced sound system equipment, including the amp. If there was ever a time when controls…particularly treble…were invaluable, it has been since then. Listening experiences through speakers simply degraded through the years. Fortunately, a couple years ago, at 81, I got very high quality hearing aids and listening to most music is like it was 40 years ago. But, with a phone app, the aids are fully adjustable…bass, mids, treble, balance, noise reduction. Yes, I use these as necessary in regard to quality of recording, personal preferences, etc. One of the many “growing old” discoveries is that after the age of 60 or so, you’re pretty much screwed as far as manufacturers are concerned. Products are designed, developed, manufactured and marketed mostly with little or no consideration given to anyone over 30 or 40.

Better off using Equalizer for those old or other recordings

I'm sorry, but this is some of the most significant B.S. plague based on pure ignorance that goes against the consumer/listener, and I wouldn’t buy any integrated amp or pre-amp without some kind of tone control. The fundamental problem is that there are no standards as far as monitoring goes in audio mixing and mastering studios, so there are not two different studios with the same monitor system that sounds the same (thanks to acoustics, which relate not only to rooms dimensions but also by what’s inside of it and placement). Add to that the fact that there’s a huge variety of monitoring speakers with a span of several decades from all over the world, and you have the explanation why sound balance between different recordings are often so different. Dr. Floyd Toole also mentioned this on its study on loudspeaker performance (which ended up being a reference for most loudspeaker manufacturers). The matter of fact is that is not difficult to make a relatively decent system to sound awesome with the “right” recording, and it’s not by accident that audio-shows all over the world keep repeating some (sometimes old) recordings over and over, and often stick to some musical genres. While it makes sense to use the music material that sounds the best on any given equipment to show off their sonic capabilities, it often hides the performance that the listener will actually get at his house with the music he listens the most. Music doesn’t exist to show off equipment, it should be the other way around! And the only way to get a fast and usable way to tame some very hot highs on recording is by reducing its levels with a HF shelf filter (aka treble control), and the same goes for bass (be it by reducing it or increasing it). Sure, I still use the “Tone bypass” (or something like that) as the “benchmark”, but my music listening experience doesn’t increased when I had no tone controls at all (quite the opposite), because some recordings end up being fatiguing, something that can clearly be compensated/improved by two or three simple tone controls. I could easily put those Infinitys and PS Audio TOPL system (or any other, of course) sounding VERYharsh and thin with many of the best-selling records of any year/decade, but I could also make it sound a lot better with the same recordings by using very simple moves on some sort of basic EQ shelving. By removing tone controls, pre/integrated amp manufacturers limit the pleasure that the costumer will get out of its system, unless the listener sticks only to the best sounding recordings and not the music it likes the most. I find it amazing that some manufacturers still deny real-world knowledge in favour of the ultimate quest for “accuracy” to the original signal, even if it sounds bad in your listening environment. It begs the question: -Is the system there to serve the music the best way it can to the listener, or to force the listener to the recordings that are most “compliant” with the final room-loudspeaker interaction? Are high-end costumers now pretending to be mastering engineers (hearing all the defects and unbalances on recordings), but without the capabilities to correct them. Does anyone really believes that any sound engineer can master any record based on your system, acoustics and personal taste (whatever they are)? IMO, this was one of the biggest disservice that the so-called high-end audio brought to its customers. Luckily there are still several brands that don’t follow that trend, because this is like car manufacturers saying that cars must have the suspension that performs best on a track or perfect road (which would be a stiffer suspension), ignoring the fact that most roads are not like that, and a stiffer suspension will be worse (and probably induce bone shaking vibrations) whenever the road gets a little bumpier... I find it amazing that even high-performance sports cars are using user selectable suspension these days, but some audio manufacturers are still living a few decades ago! Just to be clear, I’m not talking specifically about PS-Audio (we have to love Paul even when we don’t agree with him ❤) or any other brand. I’m talking about the concept and justification itself. 😉

@reddenitup

2 жыл бұрын

Well said.

Personally I put the receiver in tone defeat but I tweak the EQ of JRiver according to my preference.

But....why are they bad? We heard that they introduce a phase shift, but that's it. What audible effects does this phase shift have? On a side note, I find it amusing that many audiophiles love vinyl, a format that requires pretty heavy equalization in order to work properly. We call that a "preamp" though, because audiophiles like preamps and hate equalizers.

If the original recording engineer of the album ever flunked on recording 101, even a 500k rig with a plethora of controls doesnt matter!

Tone controls are not bad at all provided they can be turned off. Any elimination of tone controls due to talks about how they ruin the sound is missing the point that a good tone control does no harm at all when it’s off or neutral but can provide truly usable adjustments. Your music is already manipulated a lot using tone controls/EQ to get the desired sound. Yes phase shift happens due to filters but it’s often a trade off. It’s silly these controls are eliminated because engineering bypass operation where they do no harm is trivial. No, it’s an attitude thing and an annoying limitation for otherwise great equipment.

Tone controls are used mainly to compensate for poor speaker performance. Really good sounding speakers do not need any tone boosting. Having said that, most passive speakers, esp those that use soft dome tweeters, never perform very well no matter how well they were built. I remember the day I shut off my external eq, and stop listening to tone compensation, and that day I began to earnestly chase quality speakers that need no tone boosting.

@SJMessinwithBoats

6 жыл бұрын

I believe also that shutting down the eq is a natural progression to better audio.

@raymondleggs5508

6 жыл бұрын

I very sparingly use the Eq sliders and Bass & Treble knobs on the receiver. never over 3Db

@JanoyCresva66

6 жыл бұрын

That is a bs man. Every song is different, every genre is different, every songs QUALITY is different. There is just no universal speaker for every possible music man. I myself use great mackie hr 824 mk1 which are very linear monitors. However there are tone controls on the back of the speakers which i use - i raise the bass and highs simply because i love the sound of it. On top of that i use creative soundblaster hd xfi audio card where i crank some things up even more.

@SpeakerBuilder

6 жыл бұрын

At the risk of going against every audiophile bone in my body, I would say there is actually some merit to your suggestions of eqing material based on the final mix. Every recording sound unique, and some just lack clarity, and lack of bass is especially common. But the purest in me accepts whatever the mix is, as that was what the mixing/mastering engineer wanted me to hear. Then, having said that, I am quite aware, having done studio recording and also having been in pro studios a couple of times for recording projects, that recordings are mixed and mastered on various speakers, each with their own character. Knowing that, I am amazed at the talent of these engineers to get a mix that sounds great even on a very revealing high end system. My point was that our ears can develop and mature over time, hopefully as our budget to own more revealing equipment matures.

@SJMessinwithBoats

6 жыл бұрын

Does anyone eq a great pair of headphones? If you 3db up on a freq than your doubling the power. Right? If a song lacked something in your preference, would you hook up an eq?

I agree with you. I have always been pro tone controls in amplifiers while other people act like "purist audiophile" and consider them an heresy. They could be useful sometimes. I have a good quality amp that has high and low controls but I have to admit I have never used them. In my opinion tone controls are useful as a reserve, as a last resource when you have a simply and cheap audio setup and you want to adjust it for a problematic environment. But with high quality setups you have to know your electronics and speakers and room and you have to make 'em work the best they can. As you said, you have to analyze where the lack of bass comes from and try to fix it with no electronic tricks. Even though tone controls could be ok for me, I know they can introduce some phase issues and degrade sound. At the end of the game I have found what I consider the smarter thing: optimize your electronics with NO tone controls or equalizers and, if you still have some tone balance to tune, modify your speakers (or build them) with attenuator for each mid and high frequency speaker. This way you can "taylor make" the sound of the system on you room acoustic just with variable resistances (search for constant impedance rotatable attenuator). They do not degrade sound quality and let you tune your audio setup on your room and tastes. This is the way JBL made the 44.. Monitor Series, look at those speakers: they sound really huge and amazing even today after 30 years and each one has attenuator for mid and high

Not all music is mastered by a Master of Audio Engineering, some sounds quite bad, so, at the bare minimum I need some sort of tone control, my nice system has built in tone controls that have a bypass switch for when it's needed, my little system has a 10 band EQ that I can bypass, it has far more control than I really need, a 3 band Parametric EQ would be ideal for 99% on my needs.

Absolutely correct, Paul, and I have even identified the primary deficiency in my sound system: Money. Take care and please someday DO tell your ML stories - or maybe even publish your book.

"Mierd, isn't that something bad?"

Why? Because of bad mastering of audio.

very useful, if you can't spend 50.000 $ for a "pure" equipment....

Please finish your book, Paul. >__< I really want to read your stories.

They are fantastic.

System insufficiencies? Really? How about bad mixes, and the fact that the human ear / brain is the weakest link in the chain? What would be cool, tho, is to program a DSP with various profiles based on music selection. Not to worry, I haven't invented it yet. But just like Photoshop is to visual stills or movies, as film varieties and camera sensors vary, we have printing profiles tailored accordingly. I cannot see why the same thing couldn't be done with sound reproduction, using DSP with LUTs based on profiles. It could all be implemented within a parametric equalizer, as well, to provide for on-the-fly human intervention based on personal preference. This isn't the 1970's anymore. Still, i wouldn't give up tonal compensation in audio any more than I would fain Photoshop filters and adjustments for web production or printing.

if your amp doesn't have tone controls the trash is a good place for it

A major selling point of the preamp I’m about to buy is that it has tone controls

Tone controls are important if we are listening to music at low levels, because the human ear cannot perceive high end and particularly bass. It's all about volume. With my headphones, I don't use tone controls. If I play my music through my speakers loud enough to clearly hear the bass and treble here, the neighbors would call the police. My stereo receiver doesn't have a "loudness" control, so I must adjust the sound using tone controls. The deficiency is the volume and the perception of the human ear.If I can turn it up, tone controls are not needed. The ear can hear Highland particularly lows at a relatively high volume. At a low level, the ear is tuned to midrange. With my headphones it is not necessary to use tone controls, I'd love to hear Berwyn's 5 horn system he built in his house, having something like 30,000 watts through racks of Phase Linear amps.

Tone controls degrade the sound. If a song doesn't have as much bass as you would like (it is not supposed to), then find a song that does. That said, budget systems need tone controls because the frequency response is horrendous. A decent system will not have all the shortcomings that need to be corrected (compensated for, in a roundabout sloppy way that only further degrades the sound quality). I don't always agree with Paul (I think he is selling snake oil sometimes), but he is spot on in this video. If you choose to run you signal through the tone control circuity , then you have dramatically reduced your signal to noise ratio and muddies the music.

@astrotrance

4 жыл бұрын

"....find a song that does." Spoken like a true equipment before music audiophile.

@reddenitup

2 жыл бұрын

Lmao…clueless…all the pieces of my rig are high end including my cables and I use an E.Q. the sound is simply amazing. My E.Q. DEFINITELY does NOT “muddy” the sound.

@gordthor5351

2 жыл бұрын

@@reddenitup Good for you if you like the sound you have, but it you who is clueless if you don't understand how an amplifier works and why it is impossible to not degrade the sound if you feed it through a tone control circuit. That is why all high end gear has at least a couple direct inputs. Each to there own, but you are simply wrong here. It's different if the tone processing is done digitally before the music goes through the DAC, but once it's analog the signal will be significantly degraded if it has to pass through a tone control circuit. Have you even compared direct to tone controls? Obviously you aren't very sensitive to the harsher sound of tone controls, but if you do an A/B test at higher volume you should definitely notice how the pure direct signal stays much cleaner than using tone controls.

@reddenitup

2 жыл бұрын

@@gordthor5351 whatever you say….

Don’t buy an amp without tone control period

Just put the tone controls.Its up to the person to use it or not. Lack of a feature is not a feature , its just limiting the customer.

RIP Tom Colangelo 1949-2007

The comments Paul absolutely true why would you buy an amplifier but hasn't got a perfect and outputs whatever you put in you should get out adding bass and treble is adding imperfections to the amplifier my advice would be buy a entry level amplifier with no added bass or treble any a class amplifier would be an improvement

Please do finish and publish you book Paul. I'm sure those who watch this channel on a daily basis love the anecdotes along with the wisdom and experience. Maybe put something on your website where we can register interest in getting a copy ? My vintage QUAD pre-amp instructions state the tone controls should be unnecessary " unless an inferior loudspeaker or the listening environment produces some effect which needs correction ." Exactly as you said - a sticking plaster for things you probably could improve, although environment is tricky as we all know. Out of interest, the QUAD of the period had high frequency variable slope filters , only ever useful to make some old recordings on vinyl less fatiguing to listen to. Switching any of these circuits in adds extra components into the signal path which is never a good thing. They were by-passed by default. MusicwithMohit makes a good point, though.

Without Tone Control you can never make a "bad" recording listenable !!! There are more bad recordings out there than "deficient systems" - It's like saying "a good steak never needs any salt or pepper" . If you like pepper with your steak, bring your own because we don't have any. ! If you 'aint got no pepper I 'aint eatin' at your restaurant ! At the end of the day there are only three reasons for not inlcuding tone controls: A) Engineering incompetence B) Cost savings , C) Feeding the myth that "high end" equipment doesn't need to have tone controls. - Therefore if tone controls are not included it must be high end; or at least higher than another that included tone controls. It's perceived as high end AND no money was spent in designing and producing it. A win-win . Yup!

@Gawron339

6 жыл бұрын

In hi-end you dont need to have tone control.I have Accuphase integra, most powerful, and it have so powerfull bass, that even old recording sound listenable.It has tone control and compensation button.Im not using it, cause even at low volume, bass is present,is there. The amplifier have potentiometer and tone control.I would prefer rezistor steps and no tone control.But if there is a tone control, ok, and its a good one.It sound not so bad.But off course direct is best.It cost money.And needs a maintain in years to proper work.So better invest this money in different circut than tone control.

All these comments about using tone controls to listen to poorly recorded/mixed/mastered material. Here's a thought, don't listen to the bad sounding material in the first place. Isn't a quality recording part of what makes it enjoyable for us to listen to?

@reddenitup

2 жыл бұрын

lol….👎🏼

I wish I can fake farts so juicy 1:32

Paul would grit his teeth in pain at my eqed equipment smiley face eq all the way and I have a sud-woofer and a super tweeter.

yes, bring back Bass & Tone controls plus the loudness button, Music of all kind with them were so enjoyable then. Today's supposed purist audio amp sound so flat and boarding with different kind of music, interesting all recording studios use equalisers to make music

I want tone controls in the equipment I buy because its my money, excuse me!!

Yes they are: tone/balance/treble/bass/equalizer all affect the sound negatively because of extended signal. Take them out, and the sound is usually more free/natural.

@reddenitup

2 жыл бұрын

lol…..

For purists, tone controls are a poor band-aid for a deficiency in the system. True high fidelity means no color - a flat response across the entire audio spectrum. Most people don't want that. They want more bass for some musics [sic], more midrange for others, more treble for others, and loudness compensation for low volume listening.

I guess PS Audio stands for Purist Systems Audio 😉😁

Really had to show off the Fluke, eh?

Individual taste: If you want to use tone controls, okay, if not then just use them flat. But these so-called purest components only run flat and offer no tone controls, so you have to go by what they think you need, HOW DARE THEY. I live by in-between choices and choose to or not, so I make my own choices, which is not to buy your only one way components.

Sorry but I disagree. Why do I have to be a victim of taste of sound engineering? Why can't I have ( at least weak) high frequencies when listen not too loud. In Europe we live in block of flats and neighbours can be pain in the neck if you play too loud. Plus Audiophase, Luxman ot McIntosh have tone control so I don't understand your point of view and therefore will never buy amplifier or preamplifier from PS -- so stick only to PowerPlant. Your approach means loss of couple. clients...

Paul, instead of apologizing or making excuses for being a purist, please be proud of your purist position. Those that are not purists should be proud of their positions, too. To each his own. Those that would poke fun at your position fall into one of the following categories: 1) They do not understand what it is to be a purist -- even if they think that they understand, they do not. Some of these folks believe that all cables sound the same (and even all CD players sound the same). Their experiences have been with mass produced gear, where tone controls compensate for deficiencies. So they go with what they know. 2) They are envious of quality stereo gear that is out of their reach. 3) They never heard your IRS system, or anything even ½ as good. 4) They are jerks. They do not have to agree with your purist position. But they should not make fun of your purist position. Those that do: (see above). Ferrari does not apologize for the quality level of their products, and neither should you. You are a purist. Own it. I became a purist when I heard Vandersteen's System Nine, in a treated room, in a store's flagship room. Vandersteen amps, too, and the rest was Aesthetix flagship gear, AMG turntable, Graham tone-arm, Clearaudio cartridge (Goldfinger model was on loan to the store for the event). I heard Led Zeppelin II, the hot cut vinyl (RL / SS pressing). No words can describe how real the band sounded. They were there! (In the spirit of full disclosure, Vandersteen does include potentiometers for bass related room correction) Am I envious of that system? You bet I am. But I hold nothing against anyone that owns it, and more power to them. Neither do I own a Ferrari. But I hold their products in the same high esteem. I am a purist, and I will never apologize for my admiration of the quality that goes into components that benefit from NOT having tone controls. Cheers!