Atheist here. Big fan of these debates on this channel. Justin is an excellent host and moderator. I look forward to more! :)

@joannware6228

Жыл бұрын

f you can't believe in God it's not God's fault. It's absurd to put God and man in the same context and reveals a complete lack of imagination and perspective. "St. Augustine said that all of us, made from nothing, tend toward nothing. We can see this in our frailty and sin and mortality. St. Paul said, “What do you have that you did not receive? And if you received it, why do you boast as if it were not a gift?” To believe in God is to know these truths. To live them out is to live in the attitude of humility. Thomas Aquinas said humilitas veritas, meaning humility is truth. It is living out the deepest truth of things: God is God and we are not. Now, all of this sounds very clear when it’s stated in this abstract manner, but man is it hard to live out! In our fallen world, we forget so readily that we are creatures. We start to assume that we are gods, the center of the universe. The ego becomes a massive monkey on our backs, and it has to be fed and pampered constantly. What a liberation it is to let go of the ego! Do you see why humility is not a degradation, but an elevation?" Bishop Robert Barron ? "Daily Gospel Reflection (08/20/2022)"

@joannware6228

Жыл бұрын

Atheism often occurs when a person is not properly disciplined as a child. He grows up believing he is his parents' and then God's equal resulting in a complete lack of proportion and perspective.

@Mar-dk3mp

Жыл бұрын

Godless and Souless people could not even theorized the Big Bang... Modern smartness...

@azap12

Жыл бұрын

@@joannware6228 I don't think I'm a God. Im an agnostic atheist and I believe humans are insignificant in the universe. I'm no God who can creates his own purpose. I don't think I have purpose, but I live and thrive everyday rebelling this absurdity. Not all atheist are as egoist as you think, people have different attitudes and reaction towards the absurdity. Some like what you have describe are existentialist who tries to create their own meaning, yes some atheist are like that but not all of them.

@holdontoyourwig

Жыл бұрын

@@joannware6228 If you can't believe in invisible magical unicorns it's not the invisible magical unicorns fault.

As a Christian, Alex has become my favorite atheist to listen to! He’s seemed to drop the anti-theist tone and it’s so refreshing compared to a lot of the junk on both sides not just the atheist side. Alex is frequently in my prayers, he’s a kind soul and a brilliant mind and I wish him nothing but the best.

@donaldmcronald8989

Жыл бұрын

Wonderful message. It's nice to find theists like you, also. All the best to you and yours.

@mindymild

Жыл бұрын

As I am praying that God shows you the error of your ways

@camdenbarkley1893

Жыл бұрын

As a passive atheist/agnostic, this is my favorite Christian channel for the same reason. It makes me really happy to see that Justin and Alex look to actually be good friends.

@elanordeal2457

Жыл бұрын

@@camdenbarkley1893 ah God bless you! I’m glad you’re approaching this with honestly and I wish you all the best on your journey and pray that the love of God fills your heart as you seek🤍

@carlpeterson8182

Жыл бұрын

Me also. He is very thoughtful, humble, and brave. He is willing to take his thoughts to their conclusions even if it challenges him or his past beliefs. He follows what he thinks is truth wherever it goes.

I’m a Christian who really enjoys Alex. He is a gentleman and incredibly smart.

@TheMahayanist

Жыл бұрын

Surely not.

@schinzo19

Жыл бұрын

You don’t think he is well thought out and also not completely hostile in his approach?

@martinploughboy988

Жыл бұрын

He's a mere child, with no understanding of spiritual things.

@AmayzinOne

Жыл бұрын

@@schinzo19 Those things are true. But all men know nothing of gain without God.

Justin has taken the role of debate moderator and perfected it into a true art and profession.

@HarryNicNicholas

Жыл бұрын

not realll, i've lost count of the number of times he says "well, we can come back to that, but first".

@anarchorepublican5954

Жыл бұрын

...he's a very talented fellow...

As an active seeker, Bible investigator, and one who is thoroughly weary of combative approaches to public discourse, the respect shown to each other's individual knowledge path in this conversation is refreshing and exciting. Thank you!

@anarchorepublican5954

Жыл бұрын

the difference between atheism ...and a HAThEism...

@celestialknight2339

11 ай бұрын

Have you tried reading the Qur’an?

@UniteAgainstEvil

4 ай бұрын

​@@celestialknight2339stop that

@celestialknight2339

4 ай бұрын

@@UniteAgainstEvil Stop what?

Great conversation guys. Really enjoyed it! I spent decades trying to convince myself that there is a loving God and that I would live forever. I believed that as I became older and wiser the truth of Christianity would become clear. That didn’t happen. I finally accepted that I am likely just a part of the natural world and when I die my sense of self will cease. It was devastating! However, there was an upside I was not anticipating. I had not realized how much emotional energy I was putting into “trying” to believe. My cognitive dissonance plummeted. I live my life striving to believe as many true things and as few false things as possible and follow the evidence accordingly. Regardless of what I wish was true. Even if I am wrong, an omniscient God would know I have been honest in my search.

@baberoot1998

Жыл бұрын

Funny...just the opposite happened to me. I was once a skeptic...and as I have aged, and have been able to study physics, and mathematics, and biology, and cosmology...etc, I can see how the universe is a grand scale of design. But I suppose we all have a road we have to take. And I would agree, that an omniscient God ...would know whether or not you were honest in your search. Agreed. The one thing I find discouraging in some who choose not to believe in a Creator/Designer...is sometimes it seems they point their finger at "Christianity". Seems fair on the surface...but the truth is...most, if not all Christian churches...are corrupt. I try not to equate God, and his existence...with what a so-called Christian leader teaches. Just because someone professes their brand of religion, and ideology of God...means they are OF God. Many people who profess Chrisitanity...are simply put...pure evil. Devious. I don't equate religion with God. It is quite plausible, and believeable...that God has no part in certain "religions". So no...I do not believe that just because someone claims God...that they are OF God. I find it discouraging when a certain religion preaches of behaves in a certain evil or devious manner, that many will reject God, because of some cult leader who claims God speaks to them. Because some religion claims God...does not mean...God claims them and their theology.

@baskeptic1161

Жыл бұрын

@@baberoot1998 Thanks for sharing your perspective. I agree with much of what you said. I do want to clarify that I never “chose not to believe in a creator”. I just don’t see any reason to believe in a supernatural realm and/or eternal life. I accept that I could be wrong and am open to evidence. I don’t find the argument from design convincing because I think we are one of the life forms that adapted to the conditions of the planet/universe rather than the conditions being designed for us. Also, Christian hypocrisy had nothing to do with my deconversion. In fact, I lived as a cultural Catholic for several years after I lost my faith. My experiences in the church were mostly positive. I couldn’t agree more that we all have our own road to take and I wish you all the best on yours!

@baskeptic1161

Жыл бұрын

@@baberoot1998 I also wonder if we are using the term “skeptic” in the same way. I define being a skeptic as having reason for the things I believe and, most importantly, being willing to change my mind when presented with new or contradicting evidence. I see a lot of people use the term skeptic for what I would call a cynic. I define this as closing one’s mind to the evidence and hanging on to a preferred belief. How are you using it?

@joannware6228

Жыл бұрын

The smartest atheists don't remain atheists, but for Alex it's a career.

@heteroclitus

Жыл бұрын

@@joannware6228 smart people, atheist or otherwise, understand that intelligence is not a significant factor in one's tendency toward religiosity.

Thank you, Alex, for being so candid about such a personal subject!

I love Alex so much. What a gentleman, what an intellectual

@planetofthevegans880

Жыл бұрын

He thinks like a machine and pretends to be something he's not.

@vladislavstezhko1864

Жыл бұрын

@@planetofthevegans880but he is brutally honest and humble

@sariahlace5944

Жыл бұрын

Me also 😊

@sariahlace5944

Жыл бұрын

@@planetofthevegans880 Most Humans are Androids open your own mind.

Max, I’ve been a Christian my entire life, and I’ve wrestled like Israel most of my life as well. The last few months in particular I’ve been plagued with your same questions and doubts. I can’t understand why God hides himself especially if He claims to be my Father and I’ve faithfully sought and served Him-I’ve sacrificed everything. I don’t understand why some people get to have these miraculous/supernatural experiences and I don’t. I felt anguished, fearful, frustrated, impatient, depressed. No one seemed to understand what I was going through, and I felt utterly hopeless realizing I wouldn’t live long enough on this earth to have all the answers. I believe Lucas is right however. I know God speaks to me-He’s done it many times before whether I admit it or not and He’s doing it right now even through you. Perhaps the struggle is the testimony God wants us to have. Some people have NDEs, some people are living terribly sinful lives but then go on to see visions or miracles, some just accept, and some people wrestle with the evidence. God interacts with us all through the same Holy Spirit and offers salvation to us all. He loves you and me the same as those that see miracles. Never stop searching and hoping for Him. He will open the door to those who seek and knock.

@cpt.kimintuitiondemon

Жыл бұрын

My mother was a theologian suffering from severe depression, she could not experience god, then committed suicide. If a god exists, it feeds on our suffering.

@zviiisa

Жыл бұрын

Sorry to be replying so late! I've been through some similar dark nights of the soul where I wonder why I experience him so little after "sacrificing so much." I think therein lies the lie that he wants to undo in our hearts. Our relationship is never transactional. He never gives himself to us in exchange for all that we've done for him. He gives himself to us, through the sacrifice of his son. Sometimes I think he will allow us to experience distance from him, so that we don't feel so entitled to his grace. I'm pointing the finger at myself here. He loves you--and that will never change based on when you feel or don't feel him. He loves you because of his own heart--nothing you can ever do. When you can't feel him, tell him thank you, and rest in his love for you. Think about the fact that the cross was for you, and your worth and value and eternal security have already been determined.

@noorzanayasmin7806

3 ай бұрын

One think I have learnt is God mostly shows himself to the people that needs him the most. God show himself to the most sinful one and who are going against God. If you are already following God and doing what he is supposed to then God does not feel the need to seek you out. When you are in the path of God then Evil/Demon does seek you out to break your will away from God.

I am always so impressed by Justin, he’s an amazing host and moderator.

@danielconway7190

Жыл бұрын

I'm an atheist and I agree - he's excellent

@joannware6228

Жыл бұрын

@@danielconway7190 If you can't believe in God it's not God's fault. It's absurd to put God and man in the same context and reveals a complete lack of imagination and perspective. "St. Augustine said that all of us, made from nothing, tend toward nothing. We can see this in our frailty and sin and mortality. St. Paul said, “What do you have that you did not receive? And if you received it, why do you boast as if it were not a gift?” To believe in God is to know these truths. To live them out is to live in the attitude of humility. Thomas Aquinas said humilitas veritas, meaning humility is truth. It is living out the deepest truth of things: God is God and we are not. Now, all of this sounds very clear when it’s stated in this abstract manner, but man is it hard to live out! In our fallen world, we forget so readily that we are creatures. We start to assume that we are gods, the center of the universe. The ego becomes a massive monkey on our backs, and it has to be fed and pampered constantly. What a liberation it is to let go of the ego! Do you see why humility is not a degradation, but an elevation?" Bishop Robert Barron ? "Daily Gospel Reflection (08/20/2022)"

@danielconway7190

Жыл бұрын

@@joannware6228 for someone who talks about ego and humility so much, you sure like to go around insulting people

@CarnivoreAnesthetist

Жыл бұрын

@@danielconway7190 I’m a Christian and I agree. I love when we can get together a discuss issues and not try to go for each other’s throat. Wish you well.

@zhengfuukusheng9238

Жыл бұрын

Paul did not exist. He was literary figure invented to fulfill a purpose in the bible

"If not for the grace of God, how easily we would go through our entire lives without pondering anything beyond our senses. If we can’t see it, hear it, or touch it, we often don’t stop to contemplate it." -Jimmy Mitchell from his book Let Beauty Speak

As a Buddhist agnostic atheist, I would characterise this channel and its guests with this verse: "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God."

@cdogthehedgehog6923

Жыл бұрын

Thats really dumb.

@matiaskoivulehto5880

Жыл бұрын

Mutta miksi kutsua ihmisiä Jumalan lapsiksi, jos Jumalaa ei ole?

@christiang4497

Жыл бұрын

Beautiful comment 🙌🏽

@viralstuff6556

Жыл бұрын

joo kylla kylla

@therougesage7466

Жыл бұрын

Buddhist agnostic atheist 😂😂😂 brooooo that’s silly funny and overly descriptive ironically even since Buddhism Denies distinctions

Children growing up in evangelical homes that experience extreme doubt, like myself, who very innocently and honestly pursue a relationship with god, and yet experience nothing but a void, just an echo in an empty room, that is the problem. Theists doubt, and atheists do not doubt, and that is the fundamental difference. Once you snap out of it, THAT is the peace that passes all understanding. ❤

@Sammy-Dontpassmeby

7 ай бұрын

Much love, dear fellow interneter! i am not sure how to say this so forgive me if I am clumsy-worded as it is never my intent to offend, there are theists who are very sure that God exists. I am sorry for your pain, as sin has made it more difficult for all of us to have a relationship with God, but I did want to emphasize that He is there, and He does answer prayers. if you don't mind my respectfully asking, what made you doubt?

@drzaius844

5 ай бұрын

@@Sammy-Dontpassmeby 53:12 It’s hard to believe you are being honest. I answered your question in my OP, and Alex speaks to it during the whole video. And listen to the theist in my timestamp. God is either hiding from a large portion of humanity, and is willing to torture them for all eternity for it, or he doesn’t exist. I know your sacred beliefs won’t allow you to believe it, but I grew up in an evangelical family, and I am an example of a very non-resistant non-believer, I am proof that your perfectly loving god doesn’t exist. Theology is just the post hoc rationalization for beliefs that you already hold. You can understand why apologetics is ineffective with atheists and in particular ex-vangelical’s, and I am way happier to live with no fear of the insanely sadistic god of abrahamic theism. No doubts. Enjoy your “waiting on the lord” and “god’s timing” and when you let go of all that we are here for you ❤

Alex provides clam and cogent counter arguments to Christianity. It really helps to strengthen the church and apologists. Praying he would come into the fold one day as well.

@20july1944

Жыл бұрын

I hope God puts Alex through a meatgrinder in the process of saving him, IF that's what God intends. I would oppose rewarding this twerp for using his limited intellect to mock God.

@allthingsconsideredaa

Жыл бұрын

I enjoy clams

@20july1944

Жыл бұрын

@@allthingsconsideredaa I prefer shrimp and scallions.

@allthingsconsideredaa

Жыл бұрын

@@20july1944 I enjoy shrimp with scallions and scallops

@20july1944

Жыл бұрын

@@allthingsconsideredaa Scallops are indeed yummy as well.

I’m a Christian and I think I enjoy listening to Alex more than some Christian apologists! Ha.

@joshua_wherley

Жыл бұрын

He has succinct and reasonable arguments against the Christian worldview. As long as these are respectful and in the pursuit of truth, I'm interested in hearing them. They give me an opportunity to see things from a new angle, even if I come to a different conclusion.

I enjoyed this civil, open minded discussion. These friends, who find themselves on the opposite side of this eternal question, model how to reason out their thoughts and questions on God’s revelation, without being enemies. Very well moderated! I’d love more. Well done!

I really enjoy the dynamic between these three.

What a great conversation. Alex is too well spoken to be from Earth.

@immanuel829

Жыл бұрын

I am astonished that Alex does not admit that non-rational particles cannot produce rational thoughts.

@kotvisbj

Жыл бұрын

@@immanuel829 I don't follow

@immanuel829

Жыл бұрын

@@kotvisbj what I mean is this: naturalists believe that their intelligence is the product of non-intelligent particles. Whoever wants to believe that, fine, but it's not science. Moreover, it doesn't seem very logical either. Molecules have neither thoughts nor free will. The self that is looking through your marvellous eyes cannot be reduced to physics and chemistry. "This conclusion strongly reinforces our belief in the human soul and in its miraculous origin in a divine creation." John Eccles, neuroscientist and Nobel laureate

@kotvisbj

Жыл бұрын

@@immanuel829 I don't think you have represented Alex very well in your comment above nor the underlying argument. I would love to see an "intelligent particle". When we get into the roots of our origins they look unrecognizable to anything we see today. So the underlying point of the hiddenness of God still remains. Why doesn't God seem to want to be found? It's clearly not compelling in a clear way that gets everyone on the same page. So I have to assume God, if it's out there, has no interest in having us understand anything about it. Maybe there is something out there but without any clarity, we have no direction so we are left to our own devices to make sense of all of it.

@immanuel829

Жыл бұрын

@@kotvisbj That's exactly the point: particles are not intelligent but Alex is! Hence he is more than matter. And so are you. The burden of proof is on the naturalist who claims non-rational unconscious molecules can create rational thoughts! Apropos origins: how (let alone why) dust and water became alive "remains one of the biggest mysteries in contemporary science" (Nature Reviews Chemistry 2020) DNA is a digital code, like software. Geneticist + former atheist Francis Collins calls it the "language of God". All the best for your further faith + life journey.

The topic of (a)theism rarely has such honest, open, intellectual dialogue. The obvious respect that these three men have for eachother despite contrasting world views is very refreshing.

Wonderful discussion, beautifully moderated! 😀

Great points from Alex. And great responses from Lucas and Justin. We understand his points

This was a great exchange. It's really neat to see Alex's growth on these issues from a philosophical perspective.

@senkuishigami2485

Жыл бұрын

Why don't you guys do a collaboration than ?

@johnvirgilio5323

Жыл бұрын

It would have been better with Isaiah's explanation of God hiding his face because of our sins, and so on throughput his chapter 59, then gives the answer, where no one could be found to righteously intercede, so the Lord brought salvation for Himself with the arm of the Lord. Who is also revealed in chapter 53. "To whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?" Here's a clue, "He bore the sin of many and interceded for the transgressors." Isaiah 53:12c.

"Grant me, O Lord my God, a mind to know you, a heart to seek you, wisdom to find you, conduct pleasing to you, faithful perseverance in waiting for you, and a hope of finally embracing you." -St. Thomas Aquinas

I appreciate Alex's humility, in light of his unusual intelligence. Enjoyed the program.

@TheMahayanist

Жыл бұрын

Lol that's funny.

Lukas is onto something profound, "What moves a person to want to have a relationship with God?" What moves you to want to pursue a relationship with another person such as a spousal relationship? Is it innate in us to desire relationships?

@conordelaney76

Жыл бұрын

The main motivation for wanting a relationship with God is fear.

@adriani9432

7 ай бұрын

​@@conordelaney76For some people yes, but not everyone. It certainly wasn't the case for me when I believed in God. I worshipped him out of gratitude. Once I examined the evidence for his existence, I found no good arguments for it, so I stopped believing.

@conordelaney76

7 ай бұрын

@adriani9432 Fair enough. I do think that people will ignore the evidence (or lack thereof) out of fear. Fear of death being the end, fear of not seeing lost loves ones again in the afterlife, and fear of burning in hell for all of eternity. Sure, some people will pursue God out of gratitude. I do think the instillation of fear is the most common way of brainwashing children into pursuing a life devoted to God.

I love Alex’s mind. As I listened to him I was moved to pray God embraces him with His undeniable Love.

@teachpeace3750

Жыл бұрын

What is God waiting for? This is the issue at hand. God is not available to us to experience in any meaningful and empirically verifiable way.

@joannware6228

Жыл бұрын

@@teachpeace3750 It's an amazing phenomenon. Atheists egos are so enormous they believe they can reinvent the universe.

@teachpeace3750

Жыл бұрын

@@joannware6228 lol, what?

@nujumkey

Жыл бұрын

As a believer, do you have any thoughts as to why God hasn't revealed himself to Alex yet?

@Trivium1989

Жыл бұрын

@@teachpeace3750-what you’re asking for is a category error. However, on the Christian view, God became a human in the person of Jesus of Nazareth. Thus, He became “available to experience in a meaningful and empirically verifiable way”. As the apostle John wrote, “That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen [empirical observation] with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life-the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us…” (1 John 1:1-2).

Waited so long for this one. Glad it is here. ;)

This is great!!! We missed this at the CCexchange I’m glad unbelievable put this on. :)))

Love how Lukas approaches every subject gentle but clear

@HarryNicNicholas

Жыл бұрын

lukas makes my skin crawl, he's just about the worst youtuber i can think of.

Thank you lord Jesus for giving me free will as I ran away to drugs and a hedonistic lifestyle which left me suicidal! He came into my life 5 years ago and I've never felt such peace and love 🙏

@Nick-Nasti

9 ай бұрын

You traded one drug for another.

@adriani9432

7 ай бұрын

I think this comment is ironic :P

The obvious and most viable answer to this question of God’s Hiddenness, is that “god” is a figment or creation of our own imagination.

Well done chaps on a fine conversation.

As a Catholic, I enjoying listening

Love Lukas stuff and Alex also. It's refreshing to hear an actual discussion. Alex has matured immensely from when I first heard him. I think his delving intellectually has at least removed mental strongholds and opened him in many ways. But ultimately experience of God through the spirit is the thread throughout the bible. I fully get the why has God not revealed himself? to non-resistant people. I like what Lukas said 'not revealed himself YET' or has God been doing so but we have not come to the full realisation or awareness it's God. Also true that God's revelation is progressive in that sometimes we are gently moved and other time God moves us suddenly and abruptly.

@downenout8705

Жыл бұрын

And your evidence for what you assert you know about your god's revelation is what?

Really enjoyed this conversation 🙏

The most pertinent bit of the conversation is when Alex said 'Yes so why don't I believe' after acknowledging all the evidence he knew existed for God. And that is it. Some people you can give them all the evidence in the world and they will not be convinced, others, may have no evidence at all, and be convinced of God because of an unknown cause. So what is it that makes people believe if not evidence? It has to be something else. Evidence can be part of it, but not necessarily so. If you think of it your world view shows how you may interpret something, so your world view is part of it. But it is not just that either. It is something else.

@niceguy191

5 ай бұрын

Whatever it is, it doesn't seem to be within a person's control and therefore should not be a barrier God refuses to cross

@rl7012

5 ай бұрын

@@niceguy191 But who is blocking who? We humans can be very blind and miss the obvious. We also often don't see what is right in front of our eyes and obvious to others. Our mind can play tricks on us and our own thinking can keep us trapped. I don't think it is God hiding from us, it is the other way around. We wilfully either knowingly or unknowingly don't want to see/know.

@niceguy191

5 ай бұрын

@@rl7012 If God is so difficult to see that we can unknowingly block him from our vision then we have no hope... Imagine genuinely trying to see the sun and somehow failing. A God wanting to be discovered would be orders of magnitude easier to find than the sun. If our minds are so good at playing tricks on us, then how do we know that God isn't the trick of the mind? If you are squinting at the barely visible blurry thing in the distance and only see the shape after being primed on what it is, how can you trust that what you think you see is reality? Especially when a telescope shows nothing there...

@freshjunkie4392

Ай бұрын

@@rl7012but why would a loving god make us that way?

@rl7012

Ай бұрын

@@freshjunkie4392 We were not made that way, We have free will, we can see if we want to see and we can remain imprisoned in our lying minds if we choose that.

I always get a chuckle from apologists like Lukas Ruegger when they talk about God, if God exists, or if you might come to develop a relationship with God. They do a wonderful job politely softening the language in these discussions. In Lukas' and Justin's worldview, you get ZERO credit for 'believing in God',... No, unless you believe in THEIR God they believe you'll be tortured in conscious misery for eternity! A teeny-tiny distinction, but one worth mentioning. Imagine being human and guessing wrong on the Celestial Showcase Showdown where you chooses door number 2 but it was actually door number 24. Gee, there were so many choices. Just the fact that the minds of men are inhabited by so many different and conflicting supernatural suppositions exposes the importance of a clear and compelling appearance from, 'The True Celestial Authority' to bring everyone on page. Given the grave consequences of getting it wrong makes the, Hiddenness of God question even more ugly, disturbing and repugnant. So happy to have a brain that's not polluted with notions of devils and demons fighting it out with God and His heavenly hosts.

@daviddeida

Жыл бұрын

Who is this one that has a brain ?.You are the product of a brain

@noorzanayasmin7806

3 ай бұрын

That is one thing I have experienced and as Christian wrestle with. I transitioned from being Muslim to Christianity. It is hard for me to accept human being who lived a righteous life their whole life according to bible but did not know the real truth of the real god and never believed in the truth and therefore persecuted. It almost doesnt seem fair. It seems that God revealed truth to us and it is up to us to pursue the truth but sometimes it feems near impossible. That is why I am incline to believe that there is a judgement where God reveals the truth to you and gives you choice whether to follow him or not when you are given all the necessary information. In Christianity that would be purgatory perhaps. I want to believe in Karma where the sum total of your deed is what happens to you but I do not want to believe in it if it is not 100% true.

@laureelohnes4231

Ай бұрын

Why do you think belief in God would save you? The devil believes in God.

Excellent debate!!! Love both these guys!

My admiration for Cosmic Skeptic grows by the interview

Alex, YOU'RE ON THE RIGHT PATH towards Jesus/God,my friend. Let God graduality CHANGE FROM RHE INSIDE OUT. I pray that I see you as one strong follower of Jesus in the future. Keep reading the Bible, keep studying; keep TRYING to trust God and he we'll be touch you in more tangible and powerful way, IN TIME.

@conordelaney76

Жыл бұрын

Which partner the Bible should he read? The bit that says homosexuality it wrong, or the bit that says women are slaves to their male counterpart?

@shaqyardie8105

2 ай бұрын

And do you have any evidence that prayer actually work? If god has a plan and it never changes, then why bother praying at all? A make-a-wish genie for deluded people.

This is crazy, but I saw this coming with Alex. Such a genuine soul.

@joannware6228

Жыл бұрын

The smartest atheists don't remain atheists, but for Alex it's a career.

@klo4880

Жыл бұрын

@@joannware6228 What an arrogant and disrespectful thing to say.

@joannware6228

Жыл бұрын

@@klo4880 Yeah!

I'm surprised there is no discussion on how God in the Bible describes HOW He reveals Himself - its within our spirit/soul. "Divine Hiddenness" seems to focus on physical/visual evidence for God, while Jesus in the New Testament focuses on His internal revelation in us. A good example of He reveals Himself multiple times everyday: moral character decisions. We can all agree the concept of kindness or compassion cannot be explained as an evolutionary or naturalistic by-product, but rather as an intrinsic quality of our inner self.

@danielconway7190

Жыл бұрын

But you'd still know if it happened right? Can you have a personal encounter with the holy spirit and not know?

@danielconway7190

Жыл бұрын

Also many people do think evolution gave us some aspects of what we call morality. It allows social species to survive better.

@japexican007

Жыл бұрын

@@danielconway7190 those who had an encounter with God who were next to Paul didn’t hear Gods voice but rather the sound of thunder and a bright light, so I guess depends

To those who anger God, He hides Himself from them: Psalm 89:46 “O LORD, how long will this go on? Will you hide yourself forever? How long will your anger burn like fire?” But to those who love Him, God reveals Himself to them: John 14:21 “Those who accept my commandments and obey them are the ones who love me. And because they love me, my Father will love them. And I will love them and reveal myself to each of them.”

@georgekavanagh8220

Ай бұрын

"And I will love them and reveal myself to them." He revealed himself to me, so am I special? No! I simply accept his commandments. It's accept or reject.

Alot of really good back and forth here, this argument from Alex has been very interesting to me and well worth exploration.

In conclusion: there are no arguments that can rationally defend the hiddenness of god***but we must live as if god exists. ***or rather: no arguments were provided.

@davethebrahman9870

Жыл бұрын

@@ic7204 I don’t understand why you throw out reason and evidence in determining the truths of the beliefs, but then try to use logic to justify the internal coherence.

@davethebrahman9870

Жыл бұрын

@@ic7204 I don’t mean to sound offensive or supercilious, but that sounds to me like a rather odd epistemology. Why not simply accept any proposition in proportion to the evidence for it? If one does this honestly and consistently it is impossible to accept the Christian claims.

@chrissonofpear1384

Жыл бұрын

Compromise his character - hmph - right, okay: What WAS that character, again? By Deuteronomy 21, perhaps a little bit, compromised, then - also.

Great discussion! Personally overjoyed that Lukas asked Alex probing, open questions to tease out his position and spark an interesting two-way critical dialogue. They should continue these conversations IMO (perhaps on each others channels as well)

@frankwhelan1715

Жыл бұрын

Well not if as it seems here,'if Alex can manage to stick around long enough god MAY show him evidence he exists'

Awesome conversation

It's the way they kept interjecting with laughters and chuckles for me. Such a graceful conversation between Christians and a non-christian. I doubt Alex knows that people are praying for him.

This was a great exchange. At first listen this seems to be one of the most honest takes I have ever heard from an atheist. Alex seems to have been really thinking through these topics in a deep way.

What struggle... I live my life to the fullest knowing that when I die, its over. I don't worry about the end. I lived for 40 years as a born again christian worrying about what I was doing (SINNING) etc. Now I just love my children and live to fullest with them.

@japexican007

Жыл бұрын

Interesting as a Christian I don’t live my life in fear but rather live life to the fullest knowing that when I die God will accept me into his kingdom, not because I’m good but because God is good and through his son he’s made a way so that I may reconcile myself with him

@japexican007

Жыл бұрын

“For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.” ‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭1:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

@DIBBY40

Жыл бұрын

LB I know what you mean. Evangelical christianity gets very heavy and wordy. Lots of fear and anxiety. Surely the message of Jesus wasn't supposed to be like that? When I was a teenager and a Christian I used to feel that if people went to hell and I hadn't "witnessed" to them when I could have, then their " blood would be on my hands" ( whatever that meant!) How anxiety producing and heavy is that?!!

@michaelakin-ademola1490

Жыл бұрын

Listen to Joseph Prince. You cannot by yourself fulfill the law, no man can. It is grace that helps you fulfill it. An awareness of the law cannot help. The ancient Israelites over centuries proved this. It is grace that teaches you to deny (lose the character of) ungodliness

@zooedca

Жыл бұрын

@@ic7204 Sorry I wont take my evidences from Gary, I would take it from someone who did a scientific study. Funny how the evidences show that culture plays a huge role as each saw evidence from there own culture and religions for NDE. Basically the brain played tricks and they had vivd dreams.

At 1:01 or so, per Lukas 's comments. Many will come and say 'Lord, I (did this and that). And the Lord will say "I never knew you"..... There is and must always be a heart surrender, with whatever prolongue pertains to an individual heart. Praying for you wonderful guys. Shalom.

I once heard a well known preacher state: 'the riches of God's salvation are not hidden from man but hidden for man.' A massive difference.

I think Alex brought up a good point on the specificity of the way God reveals Himself to the person who is seeking Him. This idea of a personal God makes more sense when you consider the "private" revelation instead of an universally accepted revelation. I gather that the universally accepted natural theological argument of God's revelation is one of the aspect but more importantly it needs to develop into a more personal revelation to form a more intimate relationship with Him. Just like everybody knows your wife or good friend on the outside but only you know her or your friend more intimately. Good is personal to us individually but also known to everyone universally. It is an intimate relationship that draws more meaning in our lives with Him and this is crucial to live with Him in eternity when granted the chance. Hope this makes sense.

@feedsravens4655

Жыл бұрын

So we all have personal Gods. Each one fits perfectly to the expectations of its "owner". VERY convenient. Each personal God gives its owner a good feeling, of being Chosen, being the center of attention of an all-powerful being (how elating), that you cannot go wrong when you follow Him, that you are always on the RIGHT side. How do you know that these personal Gods are all one and the same? Some's personal God is one of love and peace, that is tolerant and wants us all to live together in harmony however the mindset (NICE!), the personal God of others is one with a fiery sword that is slaying all the infidels, and anything other than a pure christian God state is intolerable. And millions of different flavors (in principle 2.7 billion personal Gods) in between. Which one is right? Trouble is the postulation of each one that this is the PERFECT divine revelation, so all dissenting ones MUST be completely wrong. The divine perfection makes it impossible to change the personal God. But as Christians share there is only one God, they simply define that they all mean the same, and have learned not to perceive the differences of the personal Gods of the other Christians, to never ask about specifics. Would we be able to admit to our ideas and values being all individual and that for living together, we have to find common ground, which is tedious and never ending, because people change all the time, we would all be better off. I fully understand the appeal of the feeling of being Chosen by an all-powerful being, but I also see that you can reach the same feelings with other methods or from other gods, so what makes your's right? The argument ad populum is not too compelling. And think that where the whole Jesus story originated it remained one story of several of the same God, the whole region remained rather insignificant. It became successful when it spread in the far advanced cultures of Greece and Rome, both with DIFFERENT polytheistic cultures. Can it be that without the (non-christian-based) power of these cultures it would not have worked out that well? The greeks knew (assumed) the earth was a globe centuries before Christianity. And many things that Christians assign to their religion (e.g. logic) are citations from Greek philosophers. It is easy to assign all to God when you simply include everything... That is my issue with the personal God.

@leoteng1640

Жыл бұрын

@@feedsravens4655 How many different kinds of relationships do you have with your family, friends and colleagues? isn't this similar to the concept of a personal God? One God with different relationships with different persons? And yes, my love is quite different for my wife compared to my children and my friends. Am I a different person? Yes and no depends on the situation and the kind of person I'm with. Do you treat God as a being or as an object? We must also understand that He is not human but we are like Him.

@feedingravens

Жыл бұрын

@@leoteng1640 What you describe is that what we know, what exists in the reality we perceive. A relation that is individual between individuals. That would mean your "personal God" is just like some buddy you look up to. Trouble is that God has properties he MUST possess, or it makes little sense to call him God and respect him: 1) Omnipotent 2) Omniscient 3) eternal 4) Creator of EVERYthing 5) unchanging (means all the statements, morals, logic, values etc. NEVER change) 6) Perfect 7) Absolute 8) Just - treating ANY human with the same standards. 9) Benevolent 10) All-loving, means he will give all equal chances, will invest the same effort to give ANYbody the same chance to be saved and go to heaven for eternal happiness.ANYtime, ANYplace, ANYone. 11) He knows what is persuasive for ANY person on earth, as he is omniscient, and he can create that "persuasive proof", as he is omnipotent? Do you agree on these mandatory properties or which do you exclude? (I daresay, that you will modify the fixed, static properties of God according to the situation you have to explain, but do not perceive how you apply different subsets each time). For instance, aboriginees in Australia could not know about Jesus having saved them until a few hundred years ago. Did all go to hell up to that point even though their only "fault" was being born on the same continent? They did NOT use their Free Will to be born there. Or was it the Free Will choice of some of the ancestors of Noah's sons to wander to Australia (and forget about the one God) that blocked the path to salvation for countless generations? So to speak, guilt by inheritance? Or what is with persons whose mental capabilities are so impaired that they are unable to grasp the concept of God? From demented to embryo, are these exempted, i.e. get to heaven nevertheless? When you have to begin to start to make such exceptions, then you open Pandora's box. Because then you cannot exclude that at least SOME atheists are mentally impaired to perceive the evidence for God that you consider is so obvious. That they were quasi born blind, and God in his omnipotence is responsible for this "birth defect", as he controls EVERYTHING. (after all, he controls that prophecies become fulfilled after centuries, so either all is fixed before the universe even began (which negates Free Will) or God constantly interferes to bring the course of the world back in order when Free Will spoilt the plan again (also destroying Free Will)). Can you exclude that such a "blindness" might exist? Another possibility for this "blindness" is to have grown up in an environment where the belief in this specific God simply played no role. See the aboriginees, or Hindus, or simply atheist scientist parents. Compared to a child that was born into a pious family, told it is a born sinner bound for hell as soon as it was able to understand words, was taken to church every week (at least), was trained to pray itself into trance and speak in tongues before entered school. Is that inequality of opportunity fair for an omnipotent, omni-benevolent, loving God?

@leebennett1821

Жыл бұрын

God is in your head and nowhere else

@feedingravens

Жыл бұрын

@@leebennett1821 Leo's personal Jesus is like James Stewart's "Harvey", the invisible, talking, 6-foot rabbit. A friend, a partner, with a weird wisdom helping you in your life. But is this puka real? Another effect that I am reminded of is the Third Man Syndrome. That is a known, documented effect that is usually experienced by people under extended, exthaustive physical stress in more or less isolation. They experence the presence of an additional person, with which they might even speak, that encourages them, raises their spirit (lol). In their state they do not think about how this can be possible at all. And when for some reason they are turning round to where the person should be, no one is there. So to speak a "natural", non-divine phenomenon, but I think of the stories of guardian angels, of Jesus appearing to Saul on his march to Damascus, of Noah on the mountain having God speak through a burning bush, Jesus out in the desert arguing with the devil. My boss told us when he was on a 15,000+ foot high Himalayan summit, he has the absolutely realistic memory that they met a sherpa with his yak up there and spoke with him. He knew it is absolute rubbish, but it is there. In my eyes the alien abductions (or Kate Kerr's regular visits of Heaven to talk with God) are not more than sleep paralysis, a phase during waking up, when the connection to your body (control) is still asleep that causes panic, and your brain makes up hilarious stories from memory fragments to explain that paralysis. In one I thought to myself "No wonder you cannot leaf back to page one of this book, you are asleep, it CANNOT work", and so could (in my dream) relax and watch myself searching frantically. Just an abnormal brain state. Last one is Near-death experiences. Also an abnormal state, when the brain is deprived of oxygen, but still working (the chemicals that make up our thinking are not all spent). Eyes and ears still work, so there is input. And no wonder when the brain now "tries" to do something and creates effects like the two above.

God appeared once as fire coming down on a mountain and a second time he revealed himself in the flesh. We are now looking for his final return when he will come with great power and glory. God has also revealed himself in his creation.

@LAdavidthompson

Жыл бұрын

You sound totally deranged. If one person spoke like this they would be in a mental facility....millions spout this delusional nonsense and its called religion.

Fantastic conversation

The closing comments (along with the overall discussion) were so overwhelmingly sensible in Alex's favor. The ability to clearly articulate and walk through the problems with Christian theism versus the subjective wishy-washy responses is as close to an answer as we'll ever get.

@noorzanayasmin7806

3 ай бұрын

That necessarily may not be true. There are a lot of people who do experience divine miracle and God. There are people that talk about it in their NDE experience. We have a lot to learn and relearn on the topic of God. Knowledge that we knew one time we dont anymore.

Great job all, especially Alex. You knocked it out of the park.

God came into the world as a man. Revealed everything about Himself. Instructed us how to become his children. Then He died for our souls. How can he be hidden?

@jozsefnemeth935

Жыл бұрын

The conversation has not even reached the statement that God became man. Weird. How can one debate Christian faith without its most central dogma, which sheds light on so many aspects of this topic!?

@joannware6228

Жыл бұрын

@@jozsefnemeth935 I don't watch the discussions. I tried a couple of times and couldn't make myself. I'll have to try harder. Thanks.

@shaqyardie8105

2 ай бұрын

So he's dead? Appaently not. He voluntarily put himself in a coma state for 3 days to sacrifice himself to himself to forgive himself for rules and a situration that he created. Wow, thank you so much god.

@joannware6228

2 ай бұрын

@@shaqyardie8105 Can you please elaborate? I have no idea what you're talking about.

@shaqyardie8105

2 ай бұрын

@@joannware6228 You said he died for us? But he's still alive? So he didn't die? And why did he need to do this? He created a situation that he is unhappy with and he's all powerful, but he can't get rid of the problem? The only evidence you have is a book that a radom man wrote in. Your god supposedly created whole planets, stars, moons and galaxies, but after that he seems to be incapable of doing things without the help of human beings. Noah build me a boat, Joseph let me impregnate your girlfriend so I can bring myself to earth because jut bringing myself to earth like when I walked in the garden in genesis won't be enough. A god that doesn't talk or reveal themsleves is indistinguishable from a god that doesn't exist.

The recent article, "SEEKING God's Presence: The Dopaminergic-Defense Hypothesis" offers a natural explanation for experiencing God (or experiencing something that feels like God).

Great dialogue. Glad to see Deflate and Alex engage. Quiet frankly the fact that it requires this elaborate discussion demonstrates how hidden god is.

@joannware6228

Жыл бұрын

God can never be found with science or logic because He resides above and below them. He created them so their existence is evidence of His. "We must know and feel in our bones what is wrong in us; we must look it in the face and acknowledge it with uncompromising honesty. Without this journey into our own inner hell, we will not feel the compunction to shift our way of being and seeing. And we must awaken to what is godlike in us, what is rich and unbroken, what is united with the saving designs of God. Without this clear sense, we will fall into complacency and see metanoia as, at best, a cruel illusion." Bishop Robert Barron "Daily Gospel Reflection (08/23/2022)"

@kennyehm2004

Жыл бұрын

@@joannware6228 The existence of god could be objectively known to every human in a way that doesn’t require philosophical inquiry. Jesus allegedly rising from the dead is suppose to be the most important event in human history and the information available is entirely subjective.

@kennyehm2004

Жыл бұрын

@@joannware6228 This is an emotional appeal. Why do these realizations require a god? There’s polarity. An individual who wants to maximize their potential needs to become aware of the things that impede that potential.

This was weird to hear because for years Christians have always said that arguments alone will not get you there. This is why I do make appeals to experience and ask that atheists ask God for revelation. The reason many Christians got into apologetics in the first place was because we were constantly being told on the logical front that our beliefs didnt make sense and it does seem a bit strange that Alex is kind of walking all that back now and saying "you know what, theism is somewhat convincing however, that experience thing you used to appeal to... yeah, we should talk about that again". I am not knocking Alex but this is just a lesson to us Christians not to try too hard to appeal to the worlds impossible standard of truth rather than the witness of the holy spirit. We made a mistake by solely focusing on the logical aspect. I am afraid we took atheist criticisms of blind faith too seriously here and completely abandoned appeals to experience. It seems Alex is only coming round to understanding what we have always been saying which is that everyone should always been asking God to reveal Himself to us.

@mikhail_from_afar

Жыл бұрын

I do see what you're saying, but it appears to me that such a path would stop such discussion in a stalemate. Believer says - You need to ask for a revelation; atheist replies - I'm doing all I can, I'm open. Whether the latter is being honest doesn't matter, really. This discussion is now stuck, even if atheist is being honest.

@noahfletcher3019

Жыл бұрын

@@mikhail_from_afar Agreed. Good point. I'm not saying we stop giving reasons and delivering argumentation but this idea that we can't appeal to experience or ask people to do that is just not going to do it and the fact that many apologists caved to this idea that argumentation is all you need is wrong too. As I said, it seems to sometimes backfire as shown in this video.

@austinperkins8348

Жыл бұрын

If I want to get to know my child and them know me I do it. It's not about them asking me.

@exaucemayunga22

4 ай бұрын

​@@austinperkins8348well said. An all-loving father wouldn't sit and cross his hands and wait for you to search for him.

I definitely did not walk the walk as an atheist, and still the reward for my half-hearted reaching out for God was out of this world. Alex will receive no less, I'm sure. The big question is always the "when", of course ;-) I believe the answer to be when it will favor you the most. I'll pray for Alex and his continued search for truth. Inviting my brothers and sisters in Christ to join me.

Great discussion!

A beautiful discussion

It's so nice to listen to an atheist who is so open to other worldviews. I think he should ask Becket Cook (formerly in the gay lifestyle) and should have asked Nabeel Qureshi when he was still alive (former Muslim), if it was 'cruel' to expect them to give up their old lifestyle/their family for Jesus.

@downenout8705

Жыл бұрын

Shame that the theists don't reciprocate and are never "so open to other worldviews" and instead assert that they "know" that their chosen flavour of god is the only "true" flavour.

@Indorm

Жыл бұрын

@@downenout8705 All theists? Why are you downen out? 😢

@downenout8705

Жыл бұрын

@@Indorm Yes all theists, are you seriously trying to claim that a Muslim would proclaim the truth of 1 Corinthians 15: 14, or say a non Catholic Christian that the Eucharist is actual flesh and blood. I like the handle Downen Out, as it is a reminder of how utterly insignificant I am and not to have the arrogance to assert that I know the mind of the supposed creator of the entire cosmos.

@Indorm

Жыл бұрын

@@downenout8705 Many theists I know grew up atheist and converted later, like biologist Sy Garte. I myself grew up Christian but went through a period of investigation when I wanted to follow the evidence where it leads. I went through a period of just floating and not being sure about the resurrection for about six months. We do listen. And we do love you, because God loves you. That’s one thing I’m really sure about these days.

@downenout8705

Жыл бұрын

@@Indorm So you grew up "knowing" your flavour of god is the only "true" god because your mummy told you so. All you have told me is that your choice of god is based on indoctrination and accidental geography. Doesn't seem like you are listening to me, yet you still have the audacity to assert that you "know" what your flavour of god thinks about me. Let's be clear, there is no empirical evidence to "follow" in respect of the biblical resurrection claim. I say to you with the same degree of confidence that the sun will rise tomorrow that, if you reply, you will never rebut my assertion with even a single sentence contain just a mustard seed's worth of empirical evidence. Belief without sufficient evidence is indistinguishable from gullibility and I am proud to say that, as a former Christian, I am no longer gullible.

Listening to Alex is a lot like being in class with my favorite teacher.

@joannware6228

Жыл бұрын

The smartest atheists don't remain atheists, but for Alex it's a career.

@erniemathews5085

Жыл бұрын

@@joannware6228 says someone who doesn't listen...

The allegory of “Pilgrim’s Progress” seems to fit for the question, “why these various bypaths, valleys, and meadows?” Recent cartoon version is a pretty good visual rendering, too.

I'm offering for you, Alex. 🙏🏻

The key problem of divine hiddenness is that if the main thing weighed against it is natural theology and the classical arguments for god, then at *best* one should believe in a *generic* demiurge, not in the Christian tri omni god. Those evidences simply aren't enough to get to Jesus (or Allah, or Shiva, etc). I say at best because in my best estimation, those arguments don't even get you to a god. They get you to a cause or explanation for the universe, for reason, for morality. A deity isn't even the only explanation for these things! And it isn't even the most plausible one. Regardless: the chasm between generic deism or generic theism and *specific theism* is insurmountable if god is as hidden as he obviously is. Without direct sustained and collective experience of one unique set of gods, our credences should be with the statement that if god or gods exist, they can only be of the sort that want to be hidden, *and* that specific knowledge of them is impossible. They're as knowable as Sagan's undetectable dragon. In our constant dialogue between theists and atheists, and between theists of different persuasions and religions, we should be honest. God is not obvious. He doesn't talk to every one of us, if he does at all. He is not the same to all of us, if he is anything. We have no idea.

@invisiblegorilla8631

Жыл бұрын

Agreed, and I was actually surprised that Alex didn't bring this point up in the conversation. If the counterarguments are only going to get you to an amorphous conceptual entity, then you've really done nothing to refute the problem of divine hiddenness. It's just punting the ball again with an extremely copious amount of words on paper.

@niceguy191

5 ай бұрын

Yes, if God really is there unambiguously, then there should only be one religion as everyone would find the same answer.

What an interesting conversation! I think that Alex's hope to be "moved" by an argument tends to take him out of the realm of philosophy and into the realm of relationship (admittedly so, I think). At that point, maybe relational experience is better at addressing the question than philosophy. The discussion reminds me a bit of the love between a husband and wife. Sometimes, that love can wane to the point that it doesn't _feel_ convincing or that it has the power to move you off your own self-focus. In those moments, you grit your teeth and act as though you love until the feeling returns. Belief certainly leads to behavior (especially from a philosophical standpoint), but it is also the case that behavior leads to belief (especially from a relationship standpoint). If we refuse to behave a certain way until we believe a certain way, this makes philosophical sense, but it may not make as much relational sense.

@conordelaney76

Жыл бұрын

What about the love between 2 men?

@phinehas68

Жыл бұрын

@@conordelaney76 What about it? My love for my dad can also wane so that I may act selfishly. The same principles hold there as well. Is there any reason they shouldn't?

@conordelaney76

Жыл бұрын

@@phinehas68 What about the romantic and intimate love between two non-related male lovers?

@phinehas68

Жыл бұрын

@@conordelaney76 Again, what about it? Are you saying that in your experience such relationships are not subject to the principles I described? Or are you just attempting to troll?

@conordelaney76

Жыл бұрын

@@phinehas68 You made reference to the love between a husband and wife.

I recently heard a clip from William Lane Craig admitting that he lowers his epistemic bar for Christianity. Lucas is essentially doing the same when he suggests people pretend to believe. I value truth and will not be lowering my standards to believe a comforting story. This doesn’t make me resistant, it makes me consistent.

@daviddeida

Жыл бұрын

Who are you referring to when you say I dont believe?

Thanks to all of you gentlemen for sharing openly and having these important discussions. For those in the comments seeking truth and God. The advice that continues to help me is to pray. Pray earnestly and in the most humble posture you are able to make that accepts and submits. Do not impose on God, rather allow God in and open your heart to the love that he has for you. Consider the gift that life is and can be and see the love that is manifest in it. If you seek God in all sincerity, humility and repentance then God will embrace you as his child. I pray that this realization comes to you.

an extremely important topic, but i am frankly a bit disappointed - there was so much talk AROUND the topic of D.H. but not much talk about it. i wanted to hear questions from the skeptic and answers from the believer. i barely heard any of those, and that is such a pity :( for example, they could've talked about how was God showing up to Moses, to the prophets, or to the disciples, and even today in some supernatural events to regular believers or even to Muslims in dreams, yet how the majority of us, the believers, don't experience that. now, THAT would be a great, great, great convo!!!

@megamatt1915

Жыл бұрын

i really believe that the topic of miracles is imperative to the conversation of divine hiddenness/how God reveals Himself. it’s a key part of the future of apologetics.

Fantastic conversation. I have followed Alex somewhat over the years and sometimes found him a sort of “besserwisser” But, as with many, as one grows a bit older one gets a but more humble . Life is always the greatest teacher.

The world would be a better place if more people approached those that see the world differently like Justin does by recognizing that divine hiddenness, "is a significant objection to theism." As the conversation slips toward other evidence based augments Justin brings them right back to the topic, "divine hiddenness." Well done Justin bringing some quality minds together to discuss an interesting topic.

@joannware6228

Жыл бұрын

Rejoice, O young man, while you are young and let your heart be glad in the days of your youth. Follow the ways of your heart, the vision of your eyes; Yet understand that as regards all this God will bring you to judgment. Ward off grief from your heart and put away trouble from your presence, though the dawn of youth is fleeting. Remember your Creator in the days of your youth, before the evil days come And the years approach of which you will say, I have no pleasure in them; Before the sun is darkened, and the light, and the moon, and the stars, while the clouds return after the rain; When the guardians of the house tremble, and the strong men are bent, And the grinders are idle because they are few, and they who look through the windows grow blind; When the doors to the street are shut, and the sound of the mill is low; When one waits for the chirp of a bird, but all the daughters of song are suppressed; And one fears heights, and perils in the street; When the almond tree blooms, and the locust grows sluggish and the caper berry is without effect, Because man goes to his lasting home, and mourners go about the streets; Before the silver cord is snapped and the golden bowl is broken, And the pitcher is shattered at the spring, and the broken pulley falls into the well, And the dust returns to the earth as it once was, and the life breath returns to God who gave it. Vanity of vanities, says Qoheleth, all things are vanity!" ECCL 11:9-12:8

Almost everybody in the world believed that a car can move him/her from one point to another. I wish religion is like this. 📚📚📚

@tinymcgoo1195

Жыл бұрын

You wish religion could take you from home to the store? What do you mean?

@IshaqIbrahim3

Жыл бұрын

@@tinymcgoo1195 Simple, Clear and easy to demonstrate.

God revealed himself to me in experiences that I knew were real. I lived my life for several decades as a sincere strongly committed believer open to learning all I could by being part of a community of strongly committed Christians, and by reading and watching and listening to all I could about God and my faith. Then I went looking for the evidence to understand God better and over time I came to realise that many of the things I’d been told and had read simply weren’t true. The more I searched the more convinced I became that most of what I had been led to believe was effectively lies. I came to realise that the experiences that had confirmed my faith were the same kind of experiences that convinced people in other religions of the truth of their faiths. Then I came to realise that the world would be a much different place if the Christian God was real. The evidence for the Christian God in the physical universe, and in the Christian faith itself are clearly insufficient to allow the possibility that the God of the Christian Bible exists. The evidence which should be there simply isn’t and instead we have endless excuses that sound good until properly examined. That’s the hidden-ness that many atheists find so compelling. Whenever they look deeply into the nature of reality, or of the Christian faith, they find more evidence that the Christian God isn’t real. The most strongly believing Christians are often those who don’t go looking at the evidence with an open mind but are happy to believe what they are told by other believers. The internet has made learning more about the nature of reality and of the Christian faith much more accessible, which could be a factor in the steady decline in belief in the Christian God amongst those who have easy access to information. Christianity has increasingly become a faith of the ill informed and the ignorant; of those who can’t or choose not to access information that would enable them to make informed assessments. Many who believe are afraid to look honestly at the evidence lest they lose what they currently see as the most important parts of their identity. That’s how religions and cults maintain their hold on people in spite of readily available evidence that would set them free. It is the truth that sets us free.

@chaseray8224

Жыл бұрын

Well said! This was my experience as well! And just to add a bit, I’m open to discussing the issue at anytime. However each time a member of my family broaches the subject and sees how honest and open I am, they become terrified and shut it down. It makes me sad to see people so strongly in the grips of an ideology that gently confronting the topic with honesty scares them.

@r00kiepilot

Жыл бұрын

Could it not be that the experiences you had were signs of God’s existence, but that Christianity wasn’t quite the right way? Don’t throw away the baby with the bath water. My advice is to ask yourself what is randomness or indeterminacy? Is there such a thing as ‘true lawless randomness’ where we have to stop searching for deeper explanations and just accept? This is what modern physics has led us to. Sound a bit like religion? When you stop searching for an explanation always ask yourself why you stopped at that point and if it is a satisfactory place to stop.

@dmere123ify

Жыл бұрын

@@r00kiepilot in hindsight I acknowledge that the experiences I had do not represent good evidence. They were comparable to the experiences of people in other faiths whose beliefs are completely incompatible with the Christian beliefs I held. I’m not sure what randomness has to do with belief in a God apart from that it would seem a strange way for a God to operate. Evolution seems a particularly odd way for achieving any particular desired outcome for life on earth. Any God capable of universe creation and true relationship with humans would be capable of doing a more efficient and effective job, unless the object was to conceal his existence, which the bible strongly suggests is not the case. I’m fairly satisfied after a decade or so of searching with much of the position I have come to. Just as most people are pretty comfortable with the position they’ve come to with regard to other mythologies. I have no intention of ignoring any new evidence I can find that might change my position.

@elsoil3387

Жыл бұрын

I'm the opposite. I've been a "seeker" in the true sense of the word for a long time now. I quite like some aspects of Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism etc. but I am actually finding evidence for the Christian religion which I am surprised to be finding. I dismissed Christianity as an angsty teen and went all over the place since. However, I had an inner revelation which was just a simple thought: "I would hate to see the world without Jesus in it". It was a serious thought. Imagine this pinnacle of the expression of human love and sacrifice didn't actually exist... Since then, things have started opening up for me. Look into the latest evidences for the veracity of the Shroud of Turin for example; or look into Gary Habermas' proofs for the resurrection of Christ. I think there is possibly more evidence for Christianity than any other religion. Far from it being the faith of the ill informed; it seems those who are rejecting it are simply not aware of the amount of scrutiny Christianity allows and can still come off winning - or at the very least - not losing (this channel is a great source for that). Christianity can hold its ground pretty well I find.

@dmere123ify

Жыл бұрын

@@elsoil3387 I don’t think you will find much scholarly support for an early dating of the shroud of Turin. It’s generally accepted as of 14th century origin or there abouts. So I’d recommend further research on that one. The Wikipedia article seems to cover dating pretty well. Regarding the proofs for the resurrection I’d recommend the work of KZreadr Paulogia who has made that a specialty of his, including addressing Gary Habermas’ work. I’ve always found Paulogia scrupulously thorough and honest and happy to concede points that disagree with his own views. In my experience apologetics arguments seldom acknowledge evidence that doesn’t fit the personal beliefs of their presenter. They are generally used as a tool to persuasively represent one side of the argument rather than providing unbiased analysis. As such they are fairly convincing to people who wish to adhere to the beliefs they support but may not stand up to more in-depth scrutiny. I found the apologetics books I read as a Christian very convincing as I was not looking at any contradictory evidence. I also found the “documentary” on the faking of the moon landing somewhat convincing until I did further research. The easy access we have to information through the internet today certainly makes it easier to look at all available evidence. For an balanced understanding of the origins of the bible, that you’re unfortunately unlikely to hear from church based sources, I’d recommend the work of Prof Bart Ehrman.

Scale is a big issue for me. Scale in terms of time and space. When these faiths…got going, the universe was the earth and the lights in the sky, earth was the most important and largest part of the universe. Our place on earth was also synonymous with the creation of the earth and that history covered the whole age of the earth (6000 years). We now know the billions of years that precede us and the tens billions of light years across the visible universe is. I can’t know this and imagine that the universe is made for us or finely tuned. Nor can I accept that the perfect being has trouble getting a single message across to just one planet.

@Apanblod

Жыл бұрын

Lucas is a young earth creationist, so I don't think that aspect bothers him too much.

Regardless whether one is a theist or atheist, the integrity of the guests and host are impressive. Sadly I'm not familiar with Lukas Ruegger, but I've been a regular visitor on Alex's and Max's channels and find them both sincere and respectful. In a world nearly tearing itself apart over issues that should be less divisive imho, this kind of conversation is so badly needed. I think that if truth is something that can be established by use of human faculties, listening, empathy, sincerity and respect - when those are due of course, you can't argue with a mad dog with rabies - are of the essence. From whatever angle I look at it - humanist, agnostic, evolutionary, religious or just on a personal level, you are doing a 'divine' job.

I don't think God is hidden. He is apparent every instant of every day in our conscious experience.

when asked the question "why is god hidden?" the theists always say it's people's fault not doing this, not doing enough of that but it's never god's fault. I find it dishonest

When we want to make a triangle with three lines, lines are like the appearances but the real existence belongs to the surface of the triangle however it is hidden from us. It seems that without those imaginary lines we won't have any triangle but that is not true. Because the unity of imaginary lines reveals the existence of triangle however the real existence of triangle is its hidden surface. You judge.

@conordelaney76

Жыл бұрын

If you had of incorporated the holy trinity into your triangle analogy, it would've be an A+ for effort.

Ian T. Ramsey, in _Religions Language_ says if you want to talk to a fisherman about God, use fishing language. God puts his message in various "languages" for various people.

I dare to exercise the possibility that Alex felt the presence of God in that room at some point. I don't know... but when he touched his hair after thinking that God might actually be using Him as a vehicle to bring many young atheists to His Kindom, man that felt like a realization moment for him from my point of view.

@conordelaney76

Жыл бұрын

I think you're projecting your own wants/ beliefs/ feelings on to Alex here.

Alex has come a long way. He makes a good point that philosophy may not be the best way to find God. A simple answer as to God’s hiddennes is that He is not hidden and the signs are all there, and that he is not revealing Himself directly because there is a purpose to life one of which is that it is a test. My advice to Alex is to learn about other disciplines particularly physics and Origin Of Life (OOL) research, don’t focus just on philosophy, and don’t focus just on theology and Christianity. Sometimes, for some people, looking for explanations (truth) is a multidisciplinary study. Also don’t expect God to give you a sign in the form of something miraculous or to talk to you directly. He has already given you many signs in your life but you probably didn’t notice them. They can be in small things like something turning out unexpectedly well for you or avoiding an accident etc. Philosophy and logic are important of course, but like mathematics, not all philosophical arguments even if logically consistent necessarily apply to the real world. Watch Prof Paul Davies lecture ‘where do the laws come from’. Questions such as why is there something limited rather than nothing or everything. Questions about information in living creatures and what is information. Questions such as what is the underlying indeterminacy at the foundation of quantum mechanics and seemingly reality. Is it really true lawless randomness, or is it indeterminate free will actions of God. Evidence is definitely there and the conclusion is clear, it just may require more study and taking a deep dive looking into details.

@martinzarathustra8604

Жыл бұрын

Or not.

@jimm8619

Жыл бұрын

If deeply learning about biology and physics leads one to the religion in general and the Christian religion in particular, then why are most PhD level biologists and physicists agnostic / atheists?

Ex-christian here. Believed up until i was 35. I struggled for about 11 years before i stopped believing. Theres so many reasons why i cant ever believe in the christian god ever again. I tried hard to believe and it was watching alexs debates and matt dilahuntys dabates that help me realise its not true. They have a similar way of thinking and questions as me. I love watching this channel and still find religion interesting despite no longer believing in it. I have no clue what realilty is, is it like matrix, truman show, or just nature happening with no creator. Who really knows 🤔 still very interesting nevertherless x

@joannware6228

Жыл бұрын

It's gotta be like a matrix for sure.

@Golfinthefamily

Жыл бұрын

I don't know all of your reasons to walk away, and I don't have answers for all of them... but there is NO one like Jesus. I have found many have left Christ from an unbalanced view of who he is... if you were interested...you may read "Gentle and Lowly" by Ortlund. Luke 15 still applies. Grace and peace to you.

@justinthillens2853

Жыл бұрын

They're all reinterpretations of the allegory of the cave. It's not so much that the matrix or the Truman show describe reality as it really is, but rather that they seek to describe the nature of the interactions between reality and human consciousness. I actually think Alvin Plantinga's argument against naturalism is almost all correct because we can't absolve ourselves of the cave, we didn't evolve to. In fact, I think we evolved to create the cave itself as a psychological tool that aids in our survival. Now, does that mean that we cannot trust the information we perceive through our limited senses? Of course not, that's where his arguments fail, but when leave a cave, doing so necessitates that we either find a new one, or begin to create our own. Sub conscious bias within our narratives is an inevitable phenomenon of perception, it's not something that we can do away with without holding our knowledge to standards beyond ourselves. The matrix describes this better than the Truman show, being that neo never finds the answers. On the contrary, he wholly submits himself to the machines who are in a matrix of their own creation. To be fair, I don't think the Truman show sought to explore this, rather its goal was to show people that the cultivation of skepticism can lead them to free their own wills from indoctrination. The matrix definitely takes this several steps further.

@Golfinthefamily

Жыл бұрын

@@justinthillens2853 what is your evidence for us living in a simulation? And why does this lead us away from a deism worldview?

@justinthillens2853

Жыл бұрын

@@Golfinthefamily the simulations in the matrix and the Truman show are allegories for world view narratives. So it's not that I believe we literally exist within a simulation, but rather that our own minds produce these narratives themselves to organize our experiences into a consistent and comprehensible framework. These frameworks can develop into ideologies that transcend the individual and can directly or indirectly instigate biases that suppress free thought in regards to the nature of our existence in order to maintain their integrity, which can make us docile and complacent regardless of whether what we believe is true or not. Plato's allegory of the cave argues that free thought can allow an individual to break free from their shadow prison which allegorically describes the potential of an individual to apply skepticism and deconstruct their own indoctrinations.

Some great responses from Lukas Ruegger.

A note on the end topic of this conversation...one of our barriers to accepting God is what we know and what we have accomplished. I have found in my life that it wasn't until I let go of my accomplishments and humbled my self to the point of realizing I had nothing and meant nothing to the world that I started to see what God was and how God can lift us up. That is obviously not how everyone comes to find God but it is, from what I've read and heard, how most people arrive at God's doorstep and looking up. My experience is mostly based on testimonies of those who were completely down and wiped out and were even on death's door. They were saved by God's grace when their eyes were opened by the acts of kindness of others or God. Alex is a good guy I think but he also has had more than others who find God. Not that I wish anything bad on anyone but if the result is to accept God as his personal Savior then it is a worthwhile experience.

@chrissonofpear1384

Жыл бұрын

Please give an example, then, of how, for instance, Africans were lifted up, from between 1500 AD and 1900 AD, @Peli_can Dude . Or women in Deuteronomy 21:13. Give those 'experiences' equal weight, thanks. Acts of kindness are UNIVERSAL - and not owned by any creed or religion. They do not feed 5000 people using food initially not there, and do not turn water into wine. And they are 'saved' from what, and what jeopardized them, initially?

@peli_candude554

Жыл бұрын

@@chrissonofpear1384 You may need to clarify what it is you want me to do. I can only assume things from this post that may or may not be what you are looking for. Deuteronomy 21 10 When you go to war against your enemies and the Lord your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, 11 if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. 12 Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails *13 and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife.* 14 If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes. You must not sell her or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her. Now from that you chose to post the following... _13 and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife._ This section is titled *Marrying a Captive Woman* in the NIV but may be worded differently in others. It is very straight forward but does require some understanding and context of the era this was written. Captives were not necessarily slaves and were often taken after a battle that left many people dead so the captives were possibly young children or women since most of the dead were men unless they did a complete sweep of all humans. In this case they were referring to women who were either virgin girls or adults and the rules for them were actually very clear. They are not to touch them for a month to let them mourn after which time they become the man's wife. As a wife they are bound to by their tradition to honor their wives but in the case of foreign women who are not brought up in their traditions there may be compatibility issues that result in finding them difficult to endure. They are attractive, not subservient to their husbands and not accustomed to their traditions so they may be incompatible for a number of reasons. The Israelites were short on women but they were not to steal them from their neighbors and were actually very strict rules about who they could marry (what tribes or peoples). There are other parts of the Bible that outline exactly why some women were not good mates for Israelite men due to their own traditions and religious beliefs. Some worshiped idols and had peculiar rituals that God warned them not to take up. Aside from that...if the man finds the woman incompatible then he is to let her go free and not sell her. His taking her as his wife means they had sex and the woman was not suitable for marriage or sale under those conditions. This is not the same world we grew up in where traditional values in most societies (Christian) respect the women and they are protected by laws. Now the idea is that men were not to just have their way with these captives because the Israelites had very strict rules about sex and marriage. They were to avoid sex before marriage (which this rule follows) and they were supposed to honor their wives for as long as they lived (under ideal circumstances) but they were usually arranged marriages. They pretty much grew up with the people they usually married but due to shortages of women and other circumstances they had to outsource their supply of marriage ready females. This, by the way, was actually far better than their neighbors who would go out and capture women and rape them and often leave them for dead of mistreat them as prisoners all the while letting them service the other men. Don't believe me? Read up on it... _Please give an example, then, of how, for instance, Africans were lifted up, from between 1500 AD and 1900 AD_ Do you mean the African Slave Trade? You want me to compare these two when they are exact opposites with the slaves being mostly male for working farms? Remember that slavery wasn't invented by the Jews or Christians. It was widespread and practiced by every race that has ever lived from what I've read including Native American Indians who often went to war against other Native Indians and did pretty much what everyone else did. Please explain that and how attacking the Bible is making your case.

@chrissonofpear1384

Жыл бұрын

@@peli_candude554 Interesting, in it's way - but I think we can strongly argue that those in Exodus 21:20, and Leviticus 25:46, certainly WERE slaves - even 'for life' ones. And that the distinction was astonishingly vague, if there was one, even by 1500 AD - in certain parts of Christendom. And slavery was ENDORSED by parts of Christendom after that, and even by priests - a number of times. It was also not ended, very quickly by them. Never mind the human element, there - what of the divine? Achan and his sons, and GRANDKIDS received INSTANT 'justice' for events in Joshua 7:24. So did the man in Numbers 15:32, those in 16:27 and 16:46, and in Jeremiah 2:32 - I gather. So what brought about a sudden delay, on these much more major matters? And what of those women captives in Numbers 31:18 - who were certainly implied not to be of ANY AGE that could possibly give complete consent? And what do we mean by 'incompatible' and on what grounds - and with how much evidence or testimony? Recall Numbers 5:11, too, possibly. Even nations that peacefully submitted, in Deuteronomy, were it seems, implied to have to do some forced labor - to a degree no Hebrew would, and with not always the same guarantees of Jubilee period liberation, it seems.

@peli_candude554

Жыл бұрын

@@chrissonofpear1384 Slaves were used by most societies to do their hard labor and farming for food. Without slaves many societies would have collapsed. Most of the slaves in the Bible that the Isrealites used were fed, clothed, and were protected against severe abuse by their masters in the same laws that you are quoting here. in fact, there was one particular law that told the owners that if they killed their workers they would be punished with death. There is absolutely no disputing that these laws were to protect them against the harshness that some owners were capable of with the exception of those owners outside of the Israelite camps. They had absolutely no restrictions on beating, selling, raping or abusing their workers. Why do I not hear the hue and cry of all the atheists that should be trumpeting those societies? Other than the obvious fact that most of those other societies didn't make it and collapsed or were destroyed because God was NOT on their side. Where did they all go or why did they die out? It was a very rough and tumble world and looking back to the time before Abraham left Mesopotamia actually made me beleive that God was a very real and present force in the world because the nation that Abraham built eventually eradicated slavery in their own tribes. Jesus didn't come to set the slaves free of their chains other than to encourage them to work with their masters. His actual mission was to embody God the father and demonstrate the love that he had for us. That took a long time to mature to the point where more people were experiencing freedom, financial stability, reduced persecution and harsh work conditions even though today we see some 30 millions people doing slave labor or being treated with less dignity and respect than they deserve. Slavery has been banned since the 1960s by the majority of countries in the world but still exists because of closed countries with dictators ruling and controlling everything. It's called communism and it threatens our freedoms and rights to believe what we want to believe. And part of that threat includes destroying religion because every major atheist attempt to control people included removing their freedom of religion. You can argue that till the cows come home and the crickets become your staple food but it is fact. I might address the other items you mentioned but I prefer to suggest you simply listen to some of the apologists who have made many videos debunking these claims. Typing is fun for me but I prefer to let those who have the resources handle the bulk of the explaining as that is where I learned that your arguments are explained to my satisfaction. I was like you asking the same questions...then I started listening and it all made sense.

@chrissonofpear1384

Жыл бұрын

@@peli_candude554 Prove the ones in Numbers 31:18 were, too, I suppose. Also, there's no need to rely on slaves, if you have special powers, angels, etc - to help. But even leaving all that aside, some laws, cease, to serve any useful role, after a certain point. And must be revoked. We are left in NO DOUBT how Jehovah sees eating shellfish, mixing fabrics, or gathering wood on Sabbath - nor in Achan (and his family's) hiding of loot... and the INSTANT punishment, that resulted. But slavery seems dealt with much more vaguely. Both in Deuteronomy, and the 'for life' bits of Leviticus, and in Exodus 21:20. But also, in the POST time of Jesus, where He never fully condemned it, and nor did Paul. And no fully clear answer, was even uniformly made known, even by 1500 AD - in much of Christendom? So I do find it somewhat worrying, at least. It is slavery WITHIN Christendom, I am most concerned with, here. Most of us do not want to destroy religion totally - although there more than a few 'mutant strains' of many of them that can take a flying leap, for all I care. Both on Shariah law, in extreme parts of the USA, some dodgy examples in Africa from missionaries - and others. If they will not police themselves, what then? And what widest hope does Matthew 7:18 and Romans 9:12, give us? Or 8:30?

The point of living as if God is real and true is not suppose to be easy. To truly believe you must sacrifice and part ways with how you use to be. If you aren't willing to do that you are missing the point of what it means to follow Christ.

@conordelaney76

Жыл бұрын

So what you are saying is: depart from rational thinking, logic and skepticism, and instead just believe something despite any coherent reasoning. Then you will truly believe and perhaps experience God.

I feel like the topic really got away from everyone, here, from the very start. I wanted to hear more about divine hiddenness itself, which I take to be a question about, if God wants us to believe, and knows what it would take for us to believe, why doesn’t He make Himself known in such a way as to bring everyone (every non-resistant non-believer) to belief in Him? I feel they took too much time discussing related issues, but not the issue itself, especially toward the end where they spent far too much time discussing a proposition that neither of them agree with.

@joannware6228

Жыл бұрын

If you can't believe in God it's not God's fault. It's absurd to put God and man in the same context and reveals a complete lack of imagination and perspective. "St. Augustine said that all of us, made from nothing, tend toward nothing. We can see this in our frailty and sin and mortality. St. Paul said, “What do you have that you did not receive? And if you received it, why do you boast as if it were not a gift?” To believe in God is to know these truths. To live them out is to live in the attitude of humility. Thomas Aquinas said humilitas veritas, meaning humility is truth. It is living out the deepest truth of things: God is God and we are not. Now, all of this sounds very clear when it’s stated in this abstract manner, but man is it hard to live out! In our fallen world, we forget so readily that we are creatures. We start to assume that we are gods, the center of the universe. The ego becomes a massive monkey on our backs, and it has to be fed and pampered constantly. What a liberation it is to let go of the ego! Do you see why humility is not a degradation, but an elevation?" Bishop Robert Barron ? "Daily Gospel Reflection (08/20/2022)"

@bendecidospr

Жыл бұрын

@@joannware6228 See, this is what needed to actually be discussed in the video, and it wasn’t. It seems to me that you take the position that there is no such thing as a non-resistant non-believer. Meaning, anyone who does not believe in God is because they have something in themselves that does not allow them to believe. As such, there is nothing God can do to make them believe. That is precisely the core issue behind divine hiddenness.

@lbamusic

Жыл бұрын

God does not bring everyone to believe in Him personally (salvation). But He does provide all the evidence of His existence by what we see in His magnificent celestial creations.

@chrissonofpear1384

Жыл бұрын

Far, far too generic. Also, how does this help the 'natural man' of 1 Corinthians 2... And what is a 'natural angel', ben benalu ...

@chrissonofpear1384

Жыл бұрын

@ChristianRebel Narrow it down first - what IS the message of the Cross? And which church is closest to meeting it? And why is this form of restitution required at all, does it 'redeem' Deuteronomy 21:13 (for example) and why was Satan owed access to this world, at all? As well as why sin, ignorance and suicidal pride would arise in heaven at all (optional) And angels HAD spiritual discernment, yet one third of them could not discern basic spiritual facts, in heaven, pre revolt. So were they 'natural angels'? Even though, in contrast to 1 Corinthians 2:14, they - inherited - nothing, seemingly? And lastly, what is your view of John 14:12?

This is great stuff

I'm a Christian in this exact position - I feel as though at this point it's only God himself who can change something in my heart to stop the overarching question of all my prayers being "Are you there?". There's so much confusion coming from so many potent arguments on either side of the debate as to the existence of God. I'm open to replies from anyone who's been in a similar position (including any atheists reading this), or who's been swayed by an experience with God who has some advice or personal experience to share.

@cpt.kimintuitiondemon

Жыл бұрын

What is the most potent argument for and against for you?

@LydiaMartindale

Жыл бұрын

Hi, I have been a christian for 47 years. Most of that time I have battled with more questions and doubts than an full arena of atheists. But here I am - I still choose to hold on to God. Here are a few reasons why: mathematics(intelligence written in) ; DNA (instructions); irreducible complexity and ‘unnecessary’ beauty of nature (I can’t really find any satisfactory alternative explanations for these things). Then there is the historical characteristics of the Bible even if one doesn’t believe literal interpretations (many places and characters evidenced by archaeology etc) and it’s status as the underlying basis for all western civilisation (moral codes/ laws/ literature etc). You can’t just throw it out without dismantling all we (atheists included) now take for granted. Then there is the ‘where does consciousness come from and the fact that we humans are incurably spiritual beings. - why do we spend so long thinking, worrying, searching about these things….? But maybe the main reason is…

@majm4606

Жыл бұрын

For me truth is the goal, which means I try to avoid believing any idea until _after_ having a good reason to think it's true. "Hiddenness" is our lack of a good reason to believe in god(s). Confirmation bias is the main reason to _not_ believe in ideas until after you have a good reason. We just know the human mind, when convinced of things, will see evidence that isn't actually reasonable. So if we want to avoid being misled by falsehoods, we simply can't believe we know things until we have evidence. For example ask enough people who believe in leprechauns for evidence of their "experience with leprechauns" and you _will_ hear stories of people genuinely believing they experienced leprechauns.

@LydiaMartindale

Жыл бұрын

I think it is the spiritual side that compels me more than any rationale. My most frequent prayer over the years has been ‘God, if you are there, hold on to me when I can’t hold on to you.’ And as the years have gone by I no longer look for good arguments, ‘fuzzy’ feelings, ‘answers to prayer or even begging God to reveal himself but have learned that the most exquisite spiritual treasures come when I seek God with no expectations and complete humility - even when I am in the dark and don’t even believe. There is nothing else in life that comes close. It’s on a different plane (not emotional or intellectual) and it’s hard to explain. So even now I can’t tell you for certain that God exists, all I can say is there is nothing that can ‘replace’ the experience of him or explain things if he doesn’t exist. Nowadays, I’ve given up trying to understand, beat myself up or strive for certainty. But in the final analysis, given all my searching and experience of life so far, rightly or wrongly, I choose God. Huh, I guess he has held on to me after all then?! I think it’s a journey and if you have doubts - it’s ok. I would say,; ride the questions, sure, do battle with them but stay open and really humble(the real kicker) and if you like, ask God to hold on to you, if and when you can’t hold on to him. Hope that helps a bit. Best of luck

@majm4606

Жыл бұрын

@@LydiaMartindale Doesn't that seem like confirmation bias though? For example if you prayed the same thing to _leprechauns,_ wouldn't you have ended up with the exact same experience?

I think not many people could handle Gods spirit, I know from when I became a Christian and God kept revealing himself I got to a point that I couldn’t handle it and I asked for God to stop showing me things because they were too much to handle, especially since everyone else be it theist or non-believer has a certain view of God and this world, if you start telling someone the things God shows you they’ll look at you as insane because they’re not on the same level as you are, this is why when God speaks in the Bible it’s as a voice of thunder or when he reveals his face so to speak people like Saul are blinded by his holiness, that’s the honest truth, it’s not for his benefit but rather for our benefit

@japexican007

Жыл бұрын

@@things_leftunsaid assuming you’ve read the Bible here, why would God give you something that benefits the kingdom and false god of this world rather his kingdom?

@20july1944

Жыл бұрын

I'm glad to know you're a Christian. I've seen several posts by you but wasn't sure.

@20july1944

Жыл бұрын

@@things_leftunsaid Yes, God won't do that for you -- unless perhaps He knows you will then give it to a Christian ministry of His liking. He might actually give you a glimpse of His power in that circumstance.

@joannware6228

Жыл бұрын

@@20july1944 It's an amazing phenomenon. Atheists egos are so enormous they believe they can reinvent the universe.

@johnnytass2111

Жыл бұрын

@@joannware6228 Also some believe they can bring a machine to life that will bestow eternal consciousness to humans willing to sacrifice they're own bodies to the machine.

Alex did a great job here. Love how easy it is for him to keep calm and communicate how empty these theist arguments are effectively.

The final summary from Alex!!!! Wow

Alex, if you've never had the feeling that you've sinned, either by commission or by omission, I can understand why you wouldn't wish for an objective moral standard and for mercy and grace with which to deal with it. Stay open and keep living. It will come to you.

@MoNtYbOy101

Жыл бұрын

I suspect Alex cares less about what he would want to be true than what actually is true.

@jacobscott2597

8 ай бұрын

If an objective moral standard has to ‘come to you’, it’s not very objective is it?

Fantastic content as usual with Unbelievable. However, as an ex Christian Humanist, I was pretty bugged by how one sided the ‘burden of curiosity’ was in the conversation. Why is it not JB or Lukas’s responsibility to intentionally ‘live AS IF secular humanism were true’ for a season of their lives? Don’t they owe it to themselves to do this? The stakes are high, you might not really live your one wild life if you don’t. “For if there is a sin against life, it consists perhaps not so much in despairing of life as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this life”- Albert Camus

@carlpeterson8182

Жыл бұрын

Interesting point. I would say one reason might be that so many atheists are so agnostic o they are not defending a proposition. But also I would say that everyone should theoretically live one’s life as if certain premises are true. So I think Christians should think how their lives would change in many ways if they were secular humanists or Buddhists or Muslim, etc. And not just how the mind or thoughts would change but slso their feelings and actions. I do not think anyone has to actually live their life as if a position they do not hold is true but at least think through the full implications if it was true.

One of the major reasons I am no longer a Christian minister is the hiddenness of God. I served God faithfully for 15 years. It was heartbreaking to give my life to something which never reciprocated the love and devotion I gave year after year.

@JLanalyzed

Жыл бұрын

What led you to initially become a minister?

@michaelakin-ademola1490

Жыл бұрын

For God speaketh once, yeah twice, yet man perceiveth it not.

@teachpeace3750

Жыл бұрын

@@JLanalyzed a very dramatic conversion experience after the death of a close friend. Christianity was the faith of my childhood, so it was natural that I returned to it when I went looking for answers in the midst of my trauma. It was quite the “providential” journey in fact, but in the end, silence from the heavens.

@teachpeace3750

Жыл бұрын

@@michaelakin-ademola1490 exactly, that’s the problem. If God wanted to be in relationship with us, God would speak to me every day like my children or my wife. As it is, God does not even do it once in a lifetime.

@JLanalyzed

Жыл бұрын

@@teachpeace3750 Was there anything specific you were waiting to hear an answer for?

The 'resistance' that the theists talk about is really critical thinking by another name. Some people are just constitutionally unable to put aside the fact that there is no evidence for a god.

@cpt.kimintuitiondemon

Жыл бұрын

It's even nothing more than retaining a minimum of epistemological sanity.

Compliments to Justin and Lukas and Max. As I continue to digest Ian McGuilchrist's insight and the problem of left-hemispheric hegemony, which might be considered a "pandemic-level" dis-ease of sorts in developed cultures (esp in the West), I wonder how much of the trouble of God's hiddenness, as experienced both by theists or atheists, has to do with "trying to smell the color 9," to quote a song from a decade ago? When McGuilchrist describes a right-hemispheric-injured person with a left-hemisphere still intact, the lost capacity or facility itself is simply not real for the injured person. It doesn't exist, or the problem of its loss is flatly denied or attributed to something or someone else completely irrelevant to that person's experience or epistemic confidence. That's the extreme case, of course, (and I'm not trying to suggest that a non-resistant atheist falls into that category). It is, however, illustrative of some shifts on the continuum of human experience, which might be due to how much we privilege left-hemispheric modes, and how little value we attribute to right-hemispheric modes. I find McGuilchrist's concerns persuasive in that it makes sense of so many of our cultural transformations/deformations (e.g. the rise of anxiety, depression, loneliness, trauma, various dysphorias, etc.) How much of our lack of experience of God might be related to a hypertrophied or left-hemispheric dominated perspective, experience, practice, and/or mode of participation? Similarly, there's strong evidence in the addictions recovery literature that relational vitality and neuro-affective health is preventative and curative when it comes to addiction, while isolation and social disconnection is a serious contributing factor to addiction. I agree that religious activity can help to dispose us to a relational awakening, as Lukas was suggesting, yet there has to be a relational encounter at some point, typically through some loving enfleshed person (thus the Incarnation and the mission of the Church as Christ's extended Body throughout time and space). I'm put in mind of 2 Kings 6 when Elisha prays for his servant to see that those who are "with us vastly outnumber those against," and then the servant sees this innumerable fiery host. The naked-eye perspective precluded an experience of reality that enabled Elisha to sponsor a path to peace between Israel and Syria. It's significant, I think, that this opening of the eyes of the heart happened in relationship with Elisha as an intermediary. It is not unlike the way a mother "confers" being on her child through their co-being, that mysterious awakening of the affective vitality in the child through mutual connectivity. It's something that fades I think, at a human level, for too many of us in the West. Music, relational attunement, reverential experiences or awe, whether in the face of nature or great art, can begin to catalyze renewal of the affective co-being, and perhaps also one's capacity for knowing and experiencing the hidden God. Peter, long after the gift of being with Christ at His Transfiguration, urges his readers to pay attention until the Morning Star rises in their hearts. That advice seems more critical than ever, given the meaning crisis we find ourselves in.