Bishop Robert Barron & Alex O'Connor (Cosmic Skeptic) • Christianity or Atheism?

Episode 1 | Season 3 of The Big Conversation
Bishop Robert Barron of Word on Fire and Alex O'Connor of the Cosmic Skeptic channel discuss the evidence for God, the nature of faith and the problem of suffering.
For the bonus video of Bishop Barron and Alex O'Connor debating the Trinity sign up at www.thebigconversation.show​
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The Big Conversation is a video series from Unbelievable? featuring world-class thinkers across the religious and non-religious community. Exploring science, faith, philosophy and what it means to be human. The Big Conversation is produced by Premier in partnership with John Templeton Foundation.
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Пікірлер: 8 700

  • @davidrichardson7466
    @davidrichardson74663 жыл бұрын

    As an atheist, I can say that Bishop Barron is an intelligent, warm and interesting individual. It was a pleasure to appreciate his ideas.

  • @StrategicWealthLLC

    @StrategicWealthLLC

    3 жыл бұрын

    Well said. While not definitionally an aspect of atheism, I cannot help but observe that atheists will often express a “faith” that science will eventually explain the origin of matter/energy/laws of nature question/problem....in spite of the contingency problem. While Christians can intelligently explain the rational need for an uncaused cause (e.g. god), I don’t understand the leap to specific religions (e.g. Judaism, Christianity, Islam, etc.). I understand a middle ground between those two positions to be something like deism.

  • @Lerian_V

    @Lerian_V

    3 жыл бұрын

    @@StrategicWealthLLC Christians believe that the deist God has revealed himself so that we can know him much better, deeper and in a more meaningful way. The claim of the Bible (Abrahamic faiths) is that the deist God has revealed more about himself than we could have known by our reasoning alone. He freely revealed all these information in the Bible in order to communicate his message of salvation for us.

  • @StrategicWealthLLC

    @StrategicWealthLLC

    3 жыл бұрын

    @@Lerian_V - Thanks.

  • @TheRealShrike

    @TheRealShrike

    3 жыл бұрын

    @@StrategicWealthLLC I'll offer some respectful pushback on your comment about atheists needing faith that science will explain things eventually. It's not faith, it is expectation based on evidence and the trajectory of past events.

  • @raulrovelo5544

    @raulrovelo5544

    3 жыл бұрын

    @@TheRealShrike I think he doesn't mean that atheists see science as a "vehicle" or "replacement" for God, but that, as you stated, they expect science to answer the questions that humans could have about the world, now and in the future. Which is a position I think could be defended if you include philosophy amongst those sciences. I don't think purely material science could possibly answer many aspects of reality.

  • @flexzone7045
    @flexzone7045 Жыл бұрын

    I'm not a catholic myself, but bishop Barron sounds like a warm, openminded person. He's very polite and doesnt get his ego conflicted in his arguments. This is the goal of christianity. Love, kindness, courage and little ego. He's a true christian.

  • @MarlboroughBlenheim1

    @MarlboroughBlenheim1

    Жыл бұрын

    He’s a member of an organisation which has hidden up child abuse and which makes condom wearing against the teachings despite it causing misery and deaths of millions.

  • @flexzone7045

    @flexzone7045

    Жыл бұрын

    @@MarlboroughBlenheim1 This is not true

  • @chrissonofpear1384

    @chrissonofpear1384

    8 ай бұрын

    Although his views on hell I still find toxic. But, then, I usually do. Especially the 'choosing' bit. Ever since Paul drastically overstated the case, for Romans 1:20... it's gotten more and more clunky.@@flexzone7045

  • @skyistaken1605

    @skyistaken1605

    4 ай бұрын

    Or mayhaps, a true Christian who has found success on their path. Others are taking their time making something of themselves. Not there yet, but trying. And a man like this is the perfect example for those to look too. Good for I as an athiest to look too.

  • @lebrigand4115

    @lebrigand4115

    2 ай бұрын

    Still unable to demonstrate his batshit crazy beliefs are true, though.

  • @marktaylor2502
    @marktaylor25029 ай бұрын

    This debate piqued my interest of and curiosity about Catholicism. I was baptized and confirmed in the 2023 Easter vigil at Saint Louis De Montfort church of Fishers IN. After this debate I hunted down every lecture and homily presented by Bishop Barron as I stripped and stained my fence during Summer of 2021. I spent the next year attending Mass every week and finally completing the RCIA program. Thank you Bishop Barron, today I have an incredible, fulfilling life that I never imagined possible

  • @davidmcwilliams7399

    @davidmcwilliams7399

    2 ай бұрын

    That’s amazing, welcome home ✝️

  • @jvcastro46

    @jvcastro46

    24 күн бұрын

    What an amazing testimony! Welcome home🙏🏼

  • @robertzabick1030
    @robertzabick1030 Жыл бұрын

    While not a Catholic (yet), I really appreciate the theological intellect of Bishop Barron. As a searching pilgrim, I really enjoyed this conversation.

  • @DartNoobo

    @DartNoobo

    11 ай бұрын

    I advise you strongly to be aware that Catholicism and Christianity are not two identical entities. Be very careful in your search. Yes, a true follower of Jesus is Christian by definition. But what other label is safe to put on him? Catholic? Protestant? Baptist? Jehovah's witness? Only Bible can tell you. If you ever choose to get serious with Christianity, then follow Christ and not people. Pray for your answer, wait for an answer from God. Make sure it is no pure accident.

  • @kyoglesage

    @kyoglesage

    10 ай бұрын

    Be careful you don’t fully absorb the hell and damnation part of catholicism. I’ve heard too many stories of people who left the faith but, despite having realized the church’s doctrines are illogical and baseless, can never fully rid themselves of the horror of hell, even though they’re convinced that place doesn’t actually exist

  • @zero_gravity5861

    @zero_gravity5861

    9 ай бұрын

    @@kyoglesageI think the whole “fire and brimstone” characterization is widely characterized to be an evangelical fundamentalist idea, even though it is not fundamentally necessary that this is the case

  • @chrissonofpear1384

    @chrissonofpear1384

    8 ай бұрын

    If you fulfil John 14:12, we'll believe you. Otherwise, watch Barron make excuses for hell, on another vid. It gets... so... wool gather-y! Meantime, a lot of us, choose not to wait. Not indefinitely.@@DartNoobo

  • @DartNoobo

    @DartNoobo

    8 ай бұрын

    @@zero_gravity5861 catholics only recently and only under the pressure by public admitted that there is no hell as a fiery place of eternal torment. But they still insist that there is hell after death.

  • @trybunt
    @trybunt3 жыл бұрын

    I just thought I'd come straight to the comments to hear the real experts

  • @dan69052

    @dan69052

    3 жыл бұрын

    teach the children How does all religion start? It starts with the children . Here is a short 4:00 min video that sets the stage. Look it up on KZread “Welcome to This World”. Sound familiar?

  • @michaelcallaghan3070

    @michaelcallaghan3070

    3 жыл бұрын

    ... Ha ha ha... I like it... Very funny!!! 👍😜🇮🇪

  • @trybunt

    @trybunt

    3 жыл бұрын

    @@michaelcallaghan3070 👋🇦🇺

  • @TheRealShrike

    @TheRealShrike

    3 жыл бұрын

    Made me laugh. Good sense of humor.

  • @samwuulf

    @samwuulf

    3 жыл бұрын

    😂 + 😢 meta-comment on the state of online discourse.

  • @malgrosskreuz01
    @malgrosskreuz01 Жыл бұрын

    Bishop Barron makes me so proud to be Catholic! God bless you!

  • @thephoneranger1

    @thephoneranger1

    10 ай бұрын

    Well said.

  • @millier9658
    @millier96582 жыл бұрын

    Can I just say? I absolutely adore Bishop Barron.

  • @bertrandrussell894

    @bertrandrussell894

    Жыл бұрын

    But does he believe you should burn in hell, as he is supposed to? This is why I am always reticent to say "oh isnt he nice" because very often theres something rotten.

  • @tommore3263

    @tommore3263

    Жыл бұрын

    @@bertrandrussell894 God doesn't will , wish or cause people to "burn in hell". Hell is the rejection of perfect love for something smaller. My favorite analogue is the tragic figure of an old drug addict looking for his next fix in his chosen hell. We have free wills and intellects and evil is the free choosing of something lesser while ignoring a higher good. Our intellects and free wills cannot be physical in nature just as the number 3 is not physical and there is no reason to believe this root of our personhood does not continue past physical death. And if non physical, how do we die... hence eternity which is just the continuance of right now the only time that ever exists. God gives everyone the grace to know and do better whatever their circumstances but a loving relationship presupposes the freedom not to love; to choose something lesser. Like hell. Burning like an addict. This is not the will of the Author of life who literally IS Love Himself.

  • @polmccharmly6293

    @polmccharmly6293

    Жыл бұрын

    @@tommore3263 except none of things you've said make sense if we reject the idea of free will, which makes much more sense in my opinion than having "free will" (both philosophically and scientifically) free will is something people often take for granted not really giving it much of thought, but even if we assume free will, how does commiting temporary, limited in time and space "crimes" against God's love, make it just to suffer an infinite "lack of that love" as you put it, which is very often presented as incredible pain and suffering, I wouldn't call such a God "just". If God is a cause of everything, he's also a cause of that infinite and unbelievable suffering, so an argument "you chose the punishment willingly" doesn't take the responsibility off of God, he's also a cause for all the thoughts that reject his love (if we assume cosmological argument to be valid). So he's also, even if indirectly, still, responsible for it. And if someone doesn't believe in God, you can't say that he is "willingly choosing to go to hell" that just doesn't make sense, people not believing in hell, acknowledging that they can't know if it exists or not, cannot be said to be "willingly directed at it". Our intellect is bound to our physical brain, whether you like it or not, there is every reason to think and believe based on reason and evidence that when brain dies, person and their intellect and so called "free will" dies as well, if arithmetics could "cease to exist", its perfectly reasonable to assume that number 3 would cease to exist, or at least stopped making sense (by cease to exist, I mean if it never have had existed) which would be analogous to our brain and mind. "Non physical", doesn't entail eternal, how did you make sense out of that? People can't know what's better for them to do whatever their circumstances, in order for that to be true, people would have to be able to perfectly predict the outcome of every decision they make, which is impossible, so no, we don't have a gift like that, we are limited in that regard by our circumstances.

  • @tommore3263

    @tommore3263

    Жыл бұрын

    @@bertrandrussell894 Hell is actually the awareness.. eternal .. that we have rejected the most infinitely lovable and chosen something incomparably lesser, just as we choose the low road at times in life and know it. God's will and life is all for you. To the point of even our rejecting Love Himself. Eternally. Love requires the freedom not to love what is most lovable.

  • @bertrandrussell894

    @bertrandrussell894

    Жыл бұрын

    @@polmccharmly6293 You are wasting your time. Some people are so desperate to live forever that they will believe any hokum no matter how poisonous. Its sad they won't ever actually find out, but that while alive they have been insufferable and cruel and incoherent. It's very nauseating... Imagine cuddling up to that kind of dictator and just how little self respect and love for others one has in order to do it. It's creepy.

  • @tcrown3333
    @tcrown333311 ай бұрын

    Also, as an atheist, I was extremely impressed by the way Bishop Barron presented his arguments. A very intelligent and charismatic individual.

  • @stevenhartlaub4557

    @stevenhartlaub4557

    6 ай бұрын

    Yes. The first time I heard him, I just couldn't stop listening. He is erudite, but also engaging and accessible.

  • @lebrigand4115

    @lebrigand4115

    2 ай бұрын

    Still unable to demonstrate his batshit crazy beliefs are true, though.

  • @andrewmorgensen326
    @andrewmorgensen3263 жыл бұрын

    Alex and Bishop Barron both did an amazing job. This is how a religious debate should go.

  • @bobloblaw4102

    @bobloblaw4102

    3 жыл бұрын

    I disagree. Barron defended weak deism, not Christianity. He hardly addressed the premise of the entire debate. A Muslim, Hebrew, or Mormon could’ve been in his seat using the same words and it would’ve been the same.

  • @andrewmorgensen326

    @andrewmorgensen326

    3 жыл бұрын

    @@bobloblaw4102 Yes, you are right. Barron didn't push insistently for Christian understanding of God or for unique Christian dogmas and doctrines. He himself even declares this 38:30-38:45. Barron is useing the classic 2 step apologetic. (Step 1: Argue for general theism or some sort of basic causal contingency. Then step 2: argue for a specific religious view on God, i.e. for the Christian God specifically known from the scriptures and the revelation of the person and work of Jesus Christ- the only begotten Son of God. This approach is not the only apologetic approach, but is a popular and usually sufficient approach. For interest in other Apologetic approaches see Five Views of Apologetics by Steven B. Cowan, zondervan Publishing, 2000) Regardless though my point as to why this is a "good debate" is because it was civil, humble, and kind towards each other. Both Alex and Bishop Barron listened to each other, thought about what the other was saying. Asked meaningful and relevant questions and gave meaningful and relevant comments. They did not just spout their own talking points and dictums as so many debaters do. Far too many Christian and Atheist debates are conducted in such a way that neither side listens, nor cares to even hear what the other says. So while neither Alex nor Bishop Barron makes a demonstrable case for their own positions respectively, and while neither "won" so to speak, and while neither destroyed the other with some particular piece of rhetoric or sophisty, both humbly presented a section of their idea, and allowed for a kind but critical diologue on the topic, allowing the conversation to go where the conversation ended up going. The nature of the unbelievable podcast doesn't afford either man the time they need to properly debate and tell the full story. If that is what you were looking for, other more formal debates and scenarios are more likely to provide that.

  • @mickyfrazer786

    @mickyfrazer786

    3 жыл бұрын

    Agreed. It was a conversation, and provides a lot of food for thought, while not resolving. But the point of discussion was Christian or Athiest, and as such God is assumed as Christian by the question. There are many Christian examples chosen too

  • @bengreen171

    @bengreen171

    3 жыл бұрын

    @@andrewmorgensen326 civility is all very well, but it does risk an absurd argument getting more respect than it deserves. I think all too often, respect for your opponent gets confused with an unwillingness to be frank regarding their ideas, and I think Alex lets his opponents get away with far too much sometimes. The opposite of a shouting match is not a passive refusal to confront a bad argument.

  • @andrewmorgensen326

    @andrewmorgensen326

    3 жыл бұрын

    @@bengreen171 I don't see Bishop Barron nor Alex presenting an "absurd" argument. Nor is either of them passive..they both seem quite frank to me in pointing out places they agree and disagree with each other. I'm not sure what it is that Alex let's his opponents get away with? Yes, they did not shout or berate or scoff at each other, but I also don't see how it is that either of them failed to confront a "bad argument".

  • @LawrenceMeisel
    @LawrenceMeisel3 жыл бұрын

    Of all the time I've wasted today, this has been the most worthwhile.

  • @bearistotle2820

    @bearistotle2820

    3 жыл бұрын

    Lmao well said.

  • @TheXaminedLife

    @TheXaminedLife

    3 жыл бұрын

    @@bearistotle2820 Thanks for the reply. I have started a channel TheXaminedLIfe for the positive discussion of ideas from the tremendously important to the trivial but interesting. My goal is also to raise money for Doctors without Borders, Feeding America, and Oxfam. Just getting started pretty cringeworthy with 15 subs. You're welcome to become # 16.

  • @Prophet_Isaiah

    @Prophet_Isaiah

    3 жыл бұрын

    Definitely not time wasted, these are the important questions!

  • @juanmanuelgonzalez9341

    @juanmanuelgonzalez9341

    3 жыл бұрын

    Lmao

  • @ifee2114
    @ifee21143 жыл бұрын

    Alex is intelligent. He asks the bold questions. And Bishop Barron never disappoints. The passage of the Bible where Jesus says 'Don't worry about what to say, the Holy Spirit will give you what to say' is really at play in Bishop Barron.

  • @thanksforbeingausefulidiot9016

    @thanksforbeingausefulidiot9016

    Жыл бұрын

    Doesn't that mean we have no free will, if I can simply sit back and let the "Holy Spirit" simply hand me what to say?

  • @tommore3263

    @tommore3263

    Жыл бұрын

    @@thanksforbeingausefulidiot9016 Nope. you are always free to assent or not. We do that instant by instant, even in these exchanges.

  • @thanksforbeingausefulidiot9016

    @thanksforbeingausefulidiot9016

    Жыл бұрын

    @@tommore3263 So I get the correct words handed to me on a silver platter by the "Holy Spirit", but I might choose to ignore them. That reminds me of the time God handed me the winning Powerball numbers but I said no thanks, I'll come up with better numbers on my own. Because that's a thing.

  • @spencer8388

    @spencer8388

    Жыл бұрын

    Except it isn’t at work in him at all because he couldn’t even answer him at 53:05 about what a definition of faith is- when we have an actual definition of it recorded and explained in the Bible. It’s ridiculous. It’s exactly why so many turn away from Christianity

  • @thanksforbeingausefulidiot9016

    @thanksforbeingausefulidiot9016

    Жыл бұрын

    @Ethan Danan It's called an analogy.

  • @pamelagemin2757
    @pamelagemin27572 жыл бұрын

    I love the way Alex rarely, if ever, resorts to hyperbole, unauthentic or specious arguments, or engages in ad hominem attacks.

  • @franklinpinto4364
    @franklinpinto43643 жыл бұрын

    Wow! This was great! I'm a Catholic and I really loved the nature of Alex. A kind man with a sense of acceptance and understanding and with great formidable arguments. Also, Bishop Barron never disappoints me :")

  • @guiagaston7273

    @guiagaston7273

    3 жыл бұрын

    Did you thank God for the corona virus already?

  • @guiagaston7273

    @guiagaston7273

    3 жыл бұрын

    @@thorhansen1333 way to tackle the topic

  • @guiagaston7273

    @guiagaston7273

    3 жыл бұрын

    @Avingay Anfordstay where does the nature of god come from?

  • @nativeatheist6422

    @nativeatheist6422

    3 жыл бұрын

    @Avingay Anfordstay Belief in christianity is like belief in Bigfoot-ism.

  • @nativeatheist6422

    @nativeatheist6422

    3 жыл бұрын

    @Avingay Anfordstay Einstein was a pantheist, didn't believe in a personal savior. Francis Collins himself admits he doesn't have a good argument for christianity. I could go on for days.

  • @iteadthomam
    @iteadthomam3 жыл бұрын

    Bishop Barron is amazing.

  • @alphaandomega567

    @alphaandomega567

    3 жыл бұрын

    *WHAT ABT BART EHRMAN*

  • @Miatpi

    @Miatpi

    3 жыл бұрын

    @@alphaandomega567 what about him?

  • @OrthodoxFarmChad

    @OrthodoxFarmChad

    3 жыл бұрын

    Barron helped bring me out of the presuppositional mess and delusion of materialism.

  • @iteadthomam

    @iteadthomam

    3 жыл бұрын

    @@alphaandomega567 what about him?

  • @iteadthomam

    @iteadthomam

    3 жыл бұрын

    @@OrthodoxFarmChad God bless him and his mission.

  • @Cowplunk
    @Cowplunk2 жыл бұрын

    I once heard a Christian on the radio advising his fellow Christians on how to comfort someone who is grieving and asking the question "How could God have allowed this to happen?". His advice was this: Don't even try to explain God's reasons for letting this tragedy happen, because no matter what you say you'll come off sounding like a jerk. That seems wise.

  • @HarryNicNicholas

    @HarryNicNicholas

    2 жыл бұрын

    "god kills everyone in the end" is all you need to say. i find that reassuring and honest, let's face it god knew from the outset everyone is going to die.

  • @kubli365

    @kubli365

    2 жыл бұрын

    @@HarryNicNicholas Does that include all the various grotesque ways of dying? I think that could work if people thought all deaths are equal but we don't.

  • @michaellamas1497

    @michaellamas1497

    2 жыл бұрын

    @@kubli365 I mean, it's believed he sent his son to be killed in one of the most painful and humiliating ways at that time. Scripture says that those who are last will be first in heaven, and that this life isn't all there is.

  • @kubli365

    @kubli365

    2 жыл бұрын

    @@michaellamas1497 I am well aware. Oh wait I thought this was a different thread lol pardon that. Yeah I see your point.

  • @chrissonofpear1384

    @chrissonofpear1384

    2 жыл бұрын

    @@michaellamas1497 frankly, the lingering death of David's son in 2 Samuel 15 must somewhat compare with crucifixion, for pain. And just how many stones hit Achan in Joshua 7:24 - and more importantly, it seems, his children, too (of what age?) And just what did occur in Jeremiah 2:30, and to whom.

  • @shaftsburry1773
    @shaftsburry17739 ай бұрын

    Late, but I’m pleasantly surprised at how respectful not just this debate but the comment section is. Good job everyone, we need more legit discussions like this.

  • @borneandayak6725
    @borneandayak67253 жыл бұрын

    Amazing Bishop Barron, Jesus bless you and the Catholic Church. Amen

  • @helhound

    @helhound

    3 жыл бұрын

    Bless the Bishop for patiently combing through the different strands and teasing them out like a rat's nest in a person's hair. It is so fulfilling to have terms defined well-that is the key to finding the common ground necessary for respect and peace.

  • @noone-jq1xw

    @noone-jq1xw

    3 жыл бұрын

    An atheist here, and I found the Bishop to be remarkably patient and composed. Although I don't agree with a few premises and conclusions of his, but I am nevertheless glad I listened all the way through.

  • @chrisvalenzuela7911

    @chrisvalenzuela7911

    3 жыл бұрын

    @@noone-jq1xw I'd recommend checking out his videos/work. I think even Atheists such as yourself would really appreciate Barron's work.

  • @lourdesdelapena1852

    @lourdesdelapena1852

    3 жыл бұрын

    Amen...🙏🏻❤️🙏🏻

  • @csongorarpad4670

    @csongorarpad4670

    2 жыл бұрын

    @@noone-jq1xw I'm very glad to see the fruits of Bishop Barron's work blossoming ever so brightly. Earlier this summer, I met a teenager who had converted from atheism to Catholicism after he had watched a lot of Bishop Barron (and other apologists... but mainly Bishop Barron) and what he said to be most convincing in Bishop Barron's apologetics is his focus on beauty itself, which is NOT rational or logical in nature, which means that anybody, regardless of their belifs, can appreciate it (unless one has become ENTIRELY deluded by postmodernism (nihilism)... In those cases, they need a personal intuition about or from God, himself, for them to be free from the trap and delusion caused by postmodernism. I wish you all the best in your searching for the truth, if that is sincerely your ambition.... :P Merry Christmas and soon-to-be happy New Year!

  • @lsqcgrade6241
    @lsqcgrade62413 жыл бұрын

    This is what I love to be a Catholic, open to any intellectual discussion. Proud of it!

  • @gabrielthomas777

    @gabrielthomas777

    3 жыл бұрын

    What about the killing of heretics by previous popes??

  • @CarapaceClavicle

    @CarapaceClavicle

    3 жыл бұрын

    @@gabrielthomas777 you act as if humans ought to be infallible.

  • @radscorpion8

    @radscorpion8

    3 жыл бұрын

    ​@@CarapaceClavicle Question is whether they did it because they were catholic or because they were fallible. Maybe in the modern day they wouldn't do it, but you could argue that's because of the development of secular human rights; that otherwise many passages in the bible (stoning of witches) would have continued to support the burning of heretics. Its an interesting question. Leviticus 24:16: Whoever blasphemes the name of the Lord shall surely be put to death. All the congregation shall stone him. The sojourner as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death.

  • @Lerian_V

    @Lerian_V

    3 жыл бұрын

    @@radscorpion8 Blasphemy is the worst offense any human can commit. It's worse that murder because it's a direct attack on God's person/character. Blasphemers have the propensity for corrupting society on a massive scale. So it's reasonable in a theocratic government to eliminate such evil from the society either by imprisonment or execution, which ever works for the society.

  • @andrewfrank8272

    @andrewfrank8272

    3 жыл бұрын

    @@CarapaceClavicle Infallible, no. Think before speaking, every time, yes. Every time.

  • @cDerb156
    @cDerb1562 жыл бұрын

    Bishop Barron does such a great job.

  • @jarrodtoner6209
    @jarrodtoner62092 жыл бұрын

    Bishop Barron used by the Holy Spirit is the reason I became Catholic.

  • @repearsonjr
    @repearsonjr3 жыл бұрын

    Barron is such a brilliant man

  • @stevenp2309

    @stevenp2309

    3 жыл бұрын

    And yet he chooses it to follow down the dead end of religion

  • @repearsonjr

    @repearsonjr

    3 жыл бұрын

    @@stevenp2309 actually atheism represents the dead end

  • @stevenp2309

    @stevenp2309

    3 жыл бұрын

    @@repearsonjr Atheists are searching for answers to unanswered questions. Barron and the religious claim to know the answer.....God. That is a dead end

  • @creatinechris

    @creatinechris

    3 жыл бұрын

    @@stevenp2309 yeah by definition it requires metaphysical claims which are stopping points for truth.

  • @DiscoverJesus

    @DiscoverJesus

    3 жыл бұрын

    @@stevenp2309 Christ represents the eternal, life without end.

  • @trevoradams3702
    @trevoradams37023 жыл бұрын

    Bishop Barron gone mess around and make me Catholic!

  • @Gerschwin

    @Gerschwin

    3 жыл бұрын

    I love it!

  • @dylangous

    @dylangous

    3 жыл бұрын

    Bishop Barron had a huge impact on me as well. Today I'm a Catholic and Barron, along with G.K. Chesterton, were both instrumental.

  • @Chakra_king

    @Chakra_king

    3 жыл бұрын

    Bishop Barron was one of the main figures that lead me to the Holy Roman Church!

  • @alexandervonkumberg4620

    @alexandervonkumberg4620

    3 жыл бұрын

    Same here

  • @borneandayak6725

    @borneandayak6725

    3 жыл бұрын

    Amen, Deus Vult!!! Jesus bless you.

  • @dawid_dahl
    @dawid_dahl2 жыл бұрын

    As a carrot, listening to two non-vegetables was surprisingly surprising.

  • @wirly-

    @wirly-

    2 жыл бұрын

    Hahaha

  • @colywogable

    @colywogable

    2 жыл бұрын

    Best comment on here :)

  • @goyonman9655

    @goyonman9655

    2 жыл бұрын

    Best comment

  • @AmitKumar-qz2us

    @AmitKumar-qz2us

    Жыл бұрын

    The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose. (Such as Religious Books full of immoral thougth, hypocrite argument and Sophistry) An evil soul producing holy witness Is like a villain with a smiling cheek, A goodly apple rotten at the heart. O, what a goodly outside falsehood hath! William Shakespeare, The Merchant

  • @AmitKumar-qz2us

    @AmitKumar-qz2us

    Жыл бұрын

    Till 325 AD, not a single historian or writer wrote about Jesus Christ or any of his disciples . BEFORE THE FIRST COUNCIL OF NICEA IN 325 AD, NOBODY ON THIS PLANET EVER HEARD OF THE NAMES JESUS CHRIST OR CHRISTIANITY. JESUS/ BIBLE / CHRISTIANTY WAS COOKED UP IN 325 AD, BY JEWESS HELENA , WHO SAT ON THE POPE'S CHAIR.. "Vatican is Evil terrorist satanic organisation." If Satan does exist, then he thrives inside the Roman Catholic Church. The dead sea scrolls covering the period from Birth of Jesus to 68 AD , does NOT say one word about Jesus or his 12 Apostles. In the entire first Christian century Jesus is not mentioned by a single Greek or Roman historian, religion scholar, politician, philosopher or poet. His name never occurs in a single inscription, and it is never found in a single piece of private correspondence. Zero! Zip references. Till 325 AD, not a single historian or writer wrote about Jesus Christ or any of his disciples . BEFORE THE FIRST COUNCIL OF NICEA IN 325 AD, NOBODY ON THIS PLANET EVER HEARD OF THE NAMES JESUS CHRIST OR CHRISTIANITY. JESUS/ BIBLE / CHRISTIANTY WAS COOKED UP IN 325 AD, BY JEWESS HELENA , WHO SAT ON THE POPE'S CHAIR.. "Vatican is Evil terrorist satanic organisation." If Satan does exist, then he thrives inside the Roman Catholic Church. The dead sea scrolls covering the period from Birth of Jesus to 68 AD , does NOT say one word about Jesus or his 12 Apostles. । Hellenistic philosopher Philo Judaeus of Alexandria (20 BCE-50 AD/CE)-alive at the purported time of Jesus, and one of the wealthiest and best connected citizens of the Empire- makes no mention of Christ, Christians or Christianity in his voluminous writings. Nor do any of the hundreds of other historians and writers who flourished during the first THREE centuries of the common era. The DEAD SEA SCROLLS were all written by Pagan Essenes . None of them have been edited by later Christians, as is the case with some other Jewish literature. All the scrolls (except a treasure map known as the Copper Scroll) can be dated prior to A.D. 68 or 69, when the Qumran settlement was believed to have been destroyed by the Romans in the Jewish revolt. The oldest of the scrolls probably goes back to the middle of the third century B.C. The people of Qumran belonged to a Pagan religious group known as the Essenes. Pliny the Elder, who died during the volcanic destruction of Pompeii in the year 79 A.D., described a community of pagan Essenes living on the western shore of the Dead Sea, close to where Khirbet Qumran is situated. John the Baptist was an ascetic Essene . He was a vegan and was uncircumcised . Various literary sources like Josephus and Philo tell clearly that Essenes were ascetics. We also know, from literary testimony, the Dead Sea Scrolls, and the archaeological remains of Qumran, that the Essenes practiced many water baptisms for ritual purification-similar to a dip in the Ganges or the river Pampa or at Thiirunelli. At Qumran, however, all members of the community were baptized with water for ritual purification. Josephus writes, "And as for their piety towards God, it is very extraordinary; for before sunrising they speak not a word about profane matters, but put up certain prayers which they have received from their forefathers, as if they made a supplication for its rising" (Wars, 2.8.5). This testimony accords well with what we know from the Dead Sea Scrolls. Prayer and humility was one thing that the Essenes . When they cooked up stories about Jesus they wrote that Jesus Christ ate the Last Supper in the Essene part of town. Jesus is not historical character, The Dead Sea Scrolls have produced increasing evidence to cement the fact that Jesus Christ never existed and the whole story was cooked up at the First Council of Nicea in 325 AD. The FAKE gospels were written after 325 AD after Jesus was cooked up at the first Council of Nicea.. Twelve apostles of Jesus never existed. Jesus Christ names 12 apostles to spread his gospel, and the early Christian church owes its rapid rise to their missionary zeal. Yet, for most of the Twelve, there's scant evidence of their existence outside of the New Testament.

  • @wissenschaftkraft5075
    @wissenschaftkraft50759 ай бұрын

    Bishop barron is the finest example of a true intellectual and Christian!

  • @christopherjank5813
    @christopherjank58133 жыл бұрын

    Man this was good. I’ve been following Alex O’Connor for several years now. And I’ve found his arguments pretty impenetrable on most fronts. But Bishop Baron made some great points. I’m gonna have too look up more stuff on him. Mad respect to both of them.

  • @roneldsilva546

    @roneldsilva546

    3 жыл бұрын

    Which good point did he make again? I didn't find any

  • @georgedoyle7971

    @georgedoyle7971

    3 жыл бұрын

    Well said! Totally agree with you Bishop Barron was really respectful, knowledgeable and made some very strong and rational arguments for theism with out appealing to emotion or using rhetoric as Alex did. ❤️

  • @InMaTeofDeath

    @InMaTeofDeath

    3 жыл бұрын

    @@roneldsilva546 The Bishop seemed to think he made good points, you're welcome to disagree with him though.

  • @georgedoyle7971

    @georgedoyle7971

    3 жыл бұрын

    @@roneldsilva546 Hi Ronel Alex was very polite but his constant appeals to emotion didn’t work at this level of debate. I think it speaks volumes that Bishop Barron was unbelievably patient and didn’t use any of these rhetorical devices. These kind of rhetorical devices utilised by Hitchens who Alex is trying to emulate don’t work at this level of debate and honesty because it stands out like a sore thumb when used against someone who is genuinely trying to engage with you as a person in your own right and respect where you’re coming from. Nevertheless, I’m impressed by Alex’s work ethic especially if he genuinely believes he is holding this world view for moral and ethical reasons. Also many of the issues raised by Alex are important as they are a good learning tool for those who are genuinely searching for truth. I found Bishop Barron very honest and more clear but also more nuanced in his explanations. This speaks volumes because if you’re going to constantly appeal to morals and ethics like Alex did then you need detailed hard evidence that you can ground values such as morals and ethics in the materialistic/atheistic paradigm. But the fact is that you can’t as appeals to values such as morals and ethics are a metaphysical presupposition that is a transcendental category that obviously can’t be grounded in the materialistic/atheistic paradigm as everything is just arbitrary and ad hoc under this world view. No offence intended all the best to you. ❤️

  • @georgedoyle7971

    @georgedoyle7971

    3 жыл бұрын

    You can’t ground metaphysical presuppositions that is transcendental categories such as values like morals and ethics, not to mention logic and empiricism in the materialistic/atheistic paradigm as it excludes these things because they are arbitrary and are clearly ad hoc under this world view. However, you can ground metaphysics in the qualitative subjective experience of mind and consciousness/theism. Because mind and consciousness is fundamental unassailable and irreducible to “matter”. Hence the common term among experts on mind and consciousness (The Hard Problem of Consciousness). Ironically it’s only a “hard problem” if you assume that “matter” is all there is to reality and existence. The double irony is that quantum physicists agree that we don’t even know what “matter” or substance actually is (Roger Penrose/Richard Feynman). It is clearly incoherent to complain about people finding some kind of meaning in suffering by appeals to “matter” and morality when under the materialistic paradigm morality and ethics are just the by product of a blind, mindless, pitiless and merciless process and are just arbitrary and ad hoc. This is begging the question when we don’t even know what “matter” is as “matter” is a theoretical abstraction of the mind. Alex clearly knows morality is a big problem for atheists which is why Alex struggles with Richard Dawkins because Dawkins is actually a consistent materialist/atheist. Dawkins, Nietzsche, Hume and Quine were all consistent atheists. For example Nietzsche is viewed as one of the founding fathers of the very harmful religion of eugenics and Richard Dawkins tweeted to 2.8 million followers that eugenics would work on humans and on a separate occasion when he was asked about values and whether the rape and murder of a child was immoral he responded that the (belief) that the rape and murder of a child is immoral is as arbitrary as the fact that we evolved five fingers instead of of six. Most people naturally recoil in disgust at this cold response to such an horrific and evil act committed against a child. But Dawkins was just being consistent with the materialistic/atheistic paradigm as morals are just ad hoc and arbitrary under this world view. I don’t subscribe to this world view because it is obvious that materialists are completely blind to the elephant in the room because the bereaved parents of children who have been raped and murdered would beg to differ that their belief that this was evil and depraved “is as arbitrary as the fact that we evolved five fingers instead of six” !!. It’s clearly an absurd and potentially harmful world view as it could easily lead to nihilism and fatalism!! (Arbitrary) “based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system.” (Oxford Dictionary). The bereaved families of the victims of the Nazis eugenics policy would also beg to differ with Dawkins claim that eugenics “would work on humans”. You can’t ground values in the materialistic paradigm!!. Objective morality is so unbelievably compelling and points to a deeper and transcendent value which is why this has been a big part of many atheists rejection of their atheism/materialism and their move towards the belief in the fundamental nature of mind and consciousness/theism/God. The fundamental nature of mind and consciousness is more logical and has the greatest explanatory power and is the most parsimonious hypothesis. The belief in the qualitative subjective experience of reality such as love, altruism, bravery, beauty, self sacrifice, morals, ethics, meaning and purpose, that is mind and consciousness/theism is just a default position until materialists can provide empirical evidence that “matter” is all that there is to reality. However, the fact is that “we cannot empirically observe matter outside and independent of mind, for we are forever locked in mind. All we can observe are the contents of perception, which are inherently mental. Even the output of measurement instruments is only accessible to us insofar as it is mentally perceived.” (Bernardo Kastrup) At least be a consistent materialist/atheist like Dawkins, Nietzsche, Hume, Dennette and Quine etc. “logic is an illusion” (Nietzsche) “You can’t get an (ought) out of an (is) - (David Hume) “The Two Dogmas of Empiricism” (W. Quine) “Consciousness is Just the brain's 'user illusion' of itself” (Daniel Dennette) “logical positivism is (self) refuting” (Vienna Circle) “The belief that the rape and murder of a child is immoral and evil is as arbitrary as the fact that we evolved five fingers instead of six” (Richard Dawkins) I rest my case!!

  • @ModernDayDebate
    @ModernDayDebate3 жыл бұрын

    This is epic! Don't forget to hit like, folks!

  • @creatinechris

    @creatinechris

    3 жыл бұрын

    James dropping in!

  • @dan69052

    @dan69052

    3 жыл бұрын

    reality How does all religion start? It starts with the children . Here is a short 4:00 min video that sets the stage. Look it up on KZread “Welcome to This World”. Sound familiar?

  • @davelanger

    @davelanger

    3 жыл бұрын

    James !!!!

  • @occidentalunrest8928

    @occidentalunrest8928

    3 жыл бұрын

    Haha I heard an internal version of James's voice when I read this comment.

  • @CarlosAlvarez-dv7um

    @CarlosAlvarez-dv7um

    3 жыл бұрын

    James please take notes on how to lead a debate as well making guest address the debate question.

  • @yankeeluver100
    @yankeeluver100 Жыл бұрын

    Bishop Barron is brilliant. Props to both of them for having such an intellectual discussion.

  • @carnivalwholesale9809

    @carnivalwholesale9809

    4 ай бұрын

    His conversation on Faith was completely garbage

  • @dduncan5279
    @dduncan5279 Жыл бұрын

    Both were excellent and really engaging. It was a pleasure listening to both of them. Let round 2 commence!

  • @hectorchavez1589
    @hectorchavez15893 жыл бұрын

    Apart from the Holy Spirit of course, Bishop Barron is the reason why I came back to the Catholic faith, amazing conversation!

  • @all2jesus

    @all2jesus

    3 жыл бұрын

    Do you pray to mary now ?

  • @hectorchavez1589

    @hectorchavez1589

    3 жыл бұрын

    @@all2jesus what do you mean by pray?

  • @all2jesus

    @all2jesus

    3 жыл бұрын

    @@hectorchavez1589 I don't know. Having any heavenly connection to Mary.

  • @hectorchavez1589

    @hectorchavez1589

    3 жыл бұрын

    @@all2jesus Id say if by “pray” you mean some type of correlation with “worship” then no. Worship is to God alone. But, If by “pray” you mean the old English term/original meaning of “privy” or “to ask” then yes, all we’re doing as Catholics is asking Mary or any other Saint to pray for us, or guiding our prayers up to God, just as you’d ask your family or friends to pray for you during a hard time. We’re not asking any questions or conjuring up spirits. Hope that helps

  • @all2jesus

    @all2jesus

    3 жыл бұрын

    @@hectorchavez1589 Is this from the Bible ?

  • @patricktalley4185
    @patricktalley41853 жыл бұрын

    Inspiring! This is what the Internet is supposed to be!!! Ideas, enlightenment, civility, wisdom. Barron and O’Connor respected each other’s positions and engaged thoughtfully and persuasively. Thank you for another great episode of this series.

  • @danglingondivineladders3994

    @danglingondivineladders3994

    3 жыл бұрын

    it is a cycle I think, internet civility. people get bored so they get more and more extreme until it becomes kind of toxic. then civility becomes a virtue again until the novelty wears off and it all repeats. think so anyways.

  • @oliveralexandre3607

    @oliveralexandre3607

    3 жыл бұрын

    Exactly so... Conversation implies listening 👂 as well as speaking 👄 and requires understanding, intelligence and as you said, civility. Both of them had these in abundance. Bravo 👏!

  • @westlylewis1
    @westlylewis12 жыл бұрын

    SO Great!! Loved the debate!! Class acts both of these gentlemen...!!! Looking forward to more!

  • @sjhoanwens
    @sjhoanwens Жыл бұрын

    I love this so much more than than the adversarial, audience charged format of debates during the past decade.

  • @flamesfan1417
    @flamesfan14173 жыл бұрын

    We need a part two picking up right where this one left off!

  • @nicksterwixter
    @nicksterwixter3 жыл бұрын

    Literally a textbook model of how you have this type of conversation. So so awesome

  • @federicodamico1996
    @federicodamico19962 жыл бұрын

    I've rarely seen such polite and complex discussion at the same time. Props to all three of them!

  • @Marniwheeler
    @Marniwheeler2 жыл бұрын

    Fantastic conversation. Love both of interlocutors and the host was great too.

  • @danielmaches3985
    @danielmaches39853 жыл бұрын

    Thanks to Bishop Barron, I overcame agnosticism and started to dive deeper into my Catholic faith!

  • @f2pgaming549

    @f2pgaming549

    3 жыл бұрын

    God bless you!

  • @szponiasty4652

    @szponiasty4652

    3 жыл бұрын

    Xd

  • @elliotalderson8358
    @elliotalderson83583 жыл бұрын

    Being raised in a catholic school and being exposed to bishop barron both through his word on fire ministry and just youtube clips, I have great respect for Bishop Barron and his works. And as a young athiest I have been watching Alex's videos primarily (I consider him top tier athiest material if not the best) as well as many other athiest channels. Let me just say that I've always been wanting to hear these two debate and it was phenomenal. I'm surprised this isn't on Trending or more popular because this is truly a great discussion where many important things were discussed in detail and with great passion and care. The best part is the mutual respect and care both O'connor and Barron show towards each other and their arguments. In the entire hour and a half, all were enjoying their discussion and they were truly debating some of the most important parts. We need more great content like this. It far outshines basic apologetics and rash athiest commentary videos. And thank you for your time.

  • @asdfasdf3989

    @asdfasdf3989

    2 жыл бұрын

    Watch Jay Dyer if you find Cosmic Skeptic compelling.

  • @brentcastor2111

    @brentcastor2111

    2 жыл бұрын

    I have always found Alex O'Connor to be one of the brightest young minds around. This was one of the best debates if not the best debate I have ever seen. This is my first experience listening to Bishop Barron and although I am not Catholic I was very impressed with the bishop and his answers and how he responded to Alex. All that being said I must say that the bishop, in my mind, exposed Alex. I have listened to Alex a number of times in the past and was genuinely concerned for him having been raised Catholic and hoping that he might find his way back to the Christian faith however I have serious doubts now that that will ever happen.

  • @mikeyseo

    @mikeyseo

    2 жыл бұрын

    To you. Whats more Likely to exist? God or Santa Claus?

  • @elliotalderson8358

    @elliotalderson8358

    2 жыл бұрын

    @@mikeyseo i mean... You obviously know best mr. Big brain. Why have billions of people been trying for millions of years to figure out this problem if it only took you a few years?

  • @mikeyseo

    @mikeyseo

    2 жыл бұрын

    @@elliotalderson8358 bc most ppl are blinded by their own arrogance and ego. Let’s take you for example. You think bc. U are not smart enough to solve the problem. Neither am I. That’s projecting your own flaws in on me. Quite arrogant n presumptuous

  • @adastra123
    @adastra1233 жыл бұрын

    That young Alex is brilliant 👏. I say this as a catholic , to take on such a brain as bishop Barron. I have learned quite a bit from both.

  • @HarryNicNicholas

    @HarryNicNicholas

    2 жыл бұрын

    barron strikes me as a nincompoop, what does "supra-rational" mean ffs? does he make up shit ALL the time?

  • @takoja507

    @takoja507

    2 жыл бұрын

    So you support child abusive organization who hides and protects the priests who like children in wrong way, ok got it. And you still think god would be ok with organization like that, ok got it too. And you probably think that morals are objective and catholic morals are good? I don't get it why anyone would call them catholic after what came out that had happen for decades and popes etc knew about it and did nothing to stop it. Just shows me the morals of these religious people.

  • @TymeTaylor

    @TymeTaylor

    2 жыл бұрын

    Oh boy, if you think the bishop is "big-brained" you've got another thing coming when you eventually find yourself on the secular side of the conversation. Good luck in your journey.

  • @KalousTheGuy

    @KalousTheGuy

    2 жыл бұрын

    Sorry for my fellows. Some forget that in their effort to "see more". They forget to be watchful of their own rhetoric. I miss the days of Real Atheism.. When we questioned because we wanted to actually know. Now it's just a game of "bash the believers". Once again, sorry for those who can't be decent about this.

  • @takoja507

    @takoja507

    2 жыл бұрын

    @@KalousTheGuy Real atheism? What is that? If you don't believe in god like being, that's real atheism. If you are bash the believers or asking question type person, is all up to you. I'm little bit both to be honest. When I meet new religious person I ask them politely if we talk about religion and beliefs, if not then I don't bring it up. I do bash some, if they tend to be smug and claim to know for sure, then it's time to bash that believer and show him the contradictions and closed mindness of his religion and how they are morally horrible person, tho I'm not as good at it as Hitchen's was. He was a master at bashing religions and believers while being civil and asking questions from them. We don't usually bash the believer but the beliefs and faith, there is difference. Not all, but most don't claim to know that any god type being is impossible, we just know that religious type gods are impossible because all of them are walking contradictions.

  • @conornagle9528
    @conornagle95282 жыл бұрын

    Bishop Barron's intellect AND Faith on full display here.

  • @laurengalan2760
    @laurengalan27603 жыл бұрын

    Yes! I love listening to Bishop Barron!

  • @kyaxar3609

    @kyaxar3609

    2 жыл бұрын

    You must be an American😂

  • @forplaylists5981
    @forplaylists59813 жыл бұрын

    Justin, this is a great conversation! Been waiting for Bishop Barron to make an appearance!

  • @mikelombard21
    @mikelombard212 жыл бұрын

    Well done gentlemen. Its a shame more conversations are not as civil as this. Opposite view points and complete courtesy and politeness. It doesn't matter how important the issue or how divided we are, we must talk about the hard issues. With civility, and kindness and open mindedness. Much love everyone, don't be afraid to question your beliefs minor or major.

  • @galaxychar
    @galaxychar2 жыл бұрын

    This is a fascinating discussion to watch, thank you. This respectful manner of debate where people essentially give their side and are open to the other is what I wish all of them were.

  • @nicolasgiaconia8051
    @nicolasgiaconia80513 жыл бұрын

    Can't wait!

  • @trueseeker5
    @trueseeker53 жыл бұрын

    Please have these two on again! Excellent program!

  • @vegfist2997
    @vegfist29972 жыл бұрын

    I enjoyed the Conversarion. Kudos to Bishop Barron, Moderator and Alex for the disçussion ❤

  • @nadjaj5290
    @nadjaj5290 Жыл бұрын

    What an absolutely excellent, deep, respectful, and sharp discussion! Absolutely love it! I wish, more discussions and debates, particularly on this topic, would go about in such a manner. Thank you so much to all the three of you. Much appreciated.

  • @ELECTRICBIGE
    @ELECTRICBIGE3 жыл бұрын

    This was incredible. Thanks to both guests, and the host

  • @fredericksary5480
    @fredericksary54803 жыл бұрын

    Fantastic conversation! Thank you!!

  • @Gregoriusz8
    @Gregoriusz82 жыл бұрын

    This is the best argument which i've ever heard about the question of God's existence! Loved both sides.

  • @amankonyak6966
    @amankonyak69662 жыл бұрын

    This was one of the best argument and the best thing I've experienced in a long time. 👍 Great.Also huge fan of Alex.

  • @JohnSWren
    @JohnSWren3 жыл бұрын

    When my dad was dying years ago he said "it's hard to fight two battles." Thanks pop.

  • @lisabrew2856
    @lisabrew28563 жыл бұрын

    This is amazing!!! So educating and exciting on both behalfs

  • @stanleyhyde8529
    @stanleyhyde85292 жыл бұрын

    I love that things like this come up in my content feed. These guys aren't attacking each other or trying to discredit one another. They are simply having a structured conversation. I wouldn't even call this a debate at least not as far as you tube is concerned anyway. The way this usually goes down is one guy yells about conspiracy theories and the other guy insults him for 2 hours while the mediator throws little jabs in at both sides to keep the fire going.

  • @user-cw6qs9ws2z
    @user-cw6qs9ws2z8 ай бұрын

    This video ages well and is well worth re-visiting from time to time.

  • @stealth797
    @stealth7973 жыл бұрын

    Great conversion. Also REALLY good audio all the way around, which is unfortunately rare these days in remote online discussions.

  • @dan69052

    @dan69052

    3 жыл бұрын

    teach the children How does all religion start? It starts with the children . Here is a short 4:00 min video that sets the stage. Look it up on KZread “Welcome to This World”. Sound familiar?

  • @jonnykhatru

    @jonnykhatru

    3 жыл бұрын

    The benefit of all participants being established independent broadcasters!

  • @marcellopozzessere1656
    @marcellopozzessere16563 жыл бұрын

    This was so good (and civil) to watch!

  • @hugster2000
    @hugster20002 жыл бұрын

    Geeze what a great discussion. 10/10 on both sides. Would love to see a second one with them.

  • @JL-gh4jy
    @JL-gh4jy2 жыл бұрын

    A very satisfying video and conversation! Well organized.

  • @markharmon6055
    @markharmon60553 жыл бұрын

    YESSSSS. I never comment but this warrants my support.

  • @gretareinarsson7461
    @gretareinarsson74613 жыл бұрын

    This is one of the best channels on subjects of faith on KZread😊

  • @AlbertCamus1993
    @AlbertCamus1993 Жыл бұрын

    Oh Boy! These two could have gone on for another 2 hour if given a chance. Loved this.

  • @ret715

    @ret715

    10 күн бұрын

    I wish they would have!

  • @shalatjohn2208
    @shalatjohn22082 жыл бұрын

    My mind swinging like a pendulum from Alex to Bishop Barron and back again.. 🤯.. it’s just mind blowing. I’ve never thought of my existence this deep.

  • @analiachavezdemaudling4895
    @analiachavezdemaudling48953 жыл бұрын

    Two brilliant minds, great arguments both but what passes through the screen is peace and humble joy that was unmovable on one side and sad disguised anger, and resentment to the point on despair on the other. Paradox: Young body, old spirit and viceversa?

  • @TheGhana1
    @TheGhana13 жыл бұрын

    I want them to keep talking!😭😭😭😭

  • @dynamic9016
    @dynamic90162 жыл бұрын

    Very fascinating discussion and I've learned alot from both the Mr. Baron and Mr. J'occonor.

  • @johncormican562
    @johncormican562 Жыл бұрын

    Fascinating debate, and as many people here have pointed out, deliciously respectful and engaging. Interesting where they end up discussing the rights and wrongs of starting with suffering or not as Buddhism's conception starts precisely with suffering and devotes itself with illuminating that very quandary.

  • @VirgoBirrane
    @VirgoBirrane3 жыл бұрын

    Brilliant. I love Bishop Barron and I love Alex, both amazing humans

  • @troychavez

    @troychavez

    2 жыл бұрын

    Exactly, I'm an agnostic and respect both

  • @JohnDeRosa1990
    @JohnDeRosa19903 жыл бұрын

    Excellent conversation!

  • @bennyredpilled5455

    @bennyredpilled5455

    3 жыл бұрын

    Hey John. please get Feser on your spotify to elaborate on Divine Conceptualism

  • @FakingANerve
    @FakingANerve2 жыл бұрын

    1:08:30 What an absolutely _fantastic_ rebuttal on Alex's part to highlight the problem of the bishop's previous statement. Cheers! 🍻

  • @whatisiswhatable

    @whatisiswhatable

    2 жыл бұрын

    It wasn’t correct, though. Permitting something doesn’t mean and admittance that it had to happen in order for some good to happen. It also doesn’t mean we can’t make judgements within the broader picture.

  • @user-vs9sd9vj1o

    @user-vs9sd9vj1o

    Жыл бұрын

    ​@@whatisiswhatable if it hadn't to happen, the why i happen? God can bring good different ways. And what "judgement" can you make? "It's bad, but it's God's work, so it's good actually, even if I don't know why."

  • @tomwatson9178
    @tomwatson91783 жыл бұрын

    Really loved the way this debate came to a close: a clarified choice for the viewer to make, with an acknowledgement of the pros and cons of each starting point. Really interesting way to clarify the problem of suffering.

  • @HarryNicNicholas

    @HarryNicNicholas

    2 жыл бұрын

    apparently god allows suffering cos it leads to a greater good, so i cause as much pain and suffering as humanly possible cos it's going to be sooooooooo great for someone some time in the future and i imagine i am guaranteed a place in heaven.

  • @ProfessorShnacktime

    @ProfessorShnacktime

    2 жыл бұрын

    @@HarryNicNicholas you really thought this was a killer argument, huh old man? Posted it fuckin everywhere.

  • @raquanwilliams5572

    @raquanwilliams5572

    2 жыл бұрын

    @@ProfessorShnacktime it’s farcical, but I believe that was part of the point. Using that circular “it will get better eventually but not for YOU” isn’t only dissatisfying, it’s a cop out

  • @Early2000sCringe

    @Early2000sCringe

    Жыл бұрын

    @@ProfessorShnacktime so, you have no rebuttal to it, then?

  • @joemcgraw8447

    @joemcgraw8447

    Жыл бұрын

    @@Early2000sCringe Despite his best efforts to produce evil and evil indeed who would produce, God would use the evil to produce good in some way. It is one of the great mysteries of God. I think Bishop Baron's point of coming to the conclusion of a good God first and looking at those arguments is the place to start. At that point we can then try to come to grips with the problem of evil and pain. Christians are fully ready to acknowledge it is difficult to come to grips with evil in the world and that is an understatement. But Christians do have a way to explain it, explain it in so far as we can't explain it fully ever, because God himself is incomprehensible to our reasoning. I think the problem of evil should be redirected towards an understanding the antithesis to that evil namely God. Evil itself is the distortion and absence of the good. If we start at the good we can perhaps better understand evil but never entirely will understand evil. I may not have put this argument the most effectively or correctly, but there it is. God bless you my friend.

  • @agneschang5234
    @agneschang52343 жыл бұрын

    I loved this debate -- not only because Bishop Barron brought some great arguments for the side of theism (which have been lacking in my own Christian background), but also because Alex was able to articulate some of the objections I couldn't do myself to the Bishop's initial arguments. It allowed the Bishop to come back and clarify and strengthen his statements. That faith is suprarational, and that it is a surrender at the far side of reason -- I'll be remembering that during my own philosophical studies! And I'll definitely be checking out Alex's other videos. God bless you both!

  • @oldschoolsaint
    @oldschoolsaint3 жыл бұрын

    You've had some great sohws Justine....this one is the best of the best!

  • @dan69052

    @dan69052

    3 жыл бұрын

    hear is another great show How does all religion start? It starts with the children . Here is a short 4:00 min video that sets the stage. Look it up on KZread “Welcome to This World”. Sound familiar?

  • @oldschoolsaint

    @oldschoolsaint

    3 жыл бұрын

    @@dan69052 Norton: Mind if I smoke Ralphie Boy? Ralph: I don't care if you burn.

  • @tomman2972
    @tomman2972 Жыл бұрын

    Two of the best, with a grade A host. Love it

  • @bbalila
    @bbalila2 жыл бұрын

    Love Alex, Watching him from his early KZreading.

  • @wierdpocket
    @wierdpocket3 жыл бұрын

    Really loved this, but absolutely loathe the time limits on these kinds of conversations, especially when it’s clear there is more to be said. These are the kinds of discussions that are worth pouring 4-8 hours into. Have lunch. Go for walks and take breaks. Do whatever, but it’s worth having long form dialogues on questions and ideas that mean the most in this life. Very grateful, regardless, for this.

  • @2Uahoj

    @2Uahoj

    3 жыл бұрын

    But how much more time could help? Thesis same ideas have been being debated for thousands of years.

  • @ZekeMagnar

    @ZekeMagnar

    3 жыл бұрын

    @@2Uahoj Where do you draw the line, though? Why even speak of it for an hour if it’s all been said and done before? I agree with amndemo. If the host and the speakers have the time and are willing (seems obvious that both Alex and Bishop Barron were very willing), it should be longer. Like others have said, right when it started to get good, it ended. If there isn’t a specific reason as to why it is an hour or two, it would be great if perhaps the speakers were given the option to go for as long as they’d like. Perhaps, due to many restraints, this may not happen, and perhaps it wouldn’t be as fruitful and entertaining and civilized as it was with Alex and Bishop Barron, but it would be nice to see in some circumstances nonetheless.

  • @chrissonofpear1384

    @chrissonofpear1384

    3 жыл бұрын

    @@ZekeMagnar Wish he'd actually gotten INTO free will, though, the Bishop, and how it works, and how it DIFFERS from angels' free will - as I suspect that will turn out to be critical, to many future apologetics. As well as how inevitable was the Fall or not.

  • @suntzu7727

    @suntzu7727

    3 жыл бұрын

    @@2Uahoj And people have been convinced by one side or the other. Really smart people have changed their mind on this after reading or discussing with proponents of opposing views. So, it seems there is always value to be found in more conversation, especially in such matters where you have to find and deal with all kinds of underlying difficulties, misunderstandings, conceptual confusions etc.

  • @gracerichmond7740

    @gracerichmond7740

    3 жыл бұрын

    Suffering is often caused by free will or weaknesses in the human condition. God is love and therefore cannot "cause" evil, but may allow it because we have been given free will. God can however bring a good out of the suffering.

  • @DominicDSouza
    @DominicDSouza3 жыл бұрын

    I truly enjoyed this discussion and agree with many comments that it is wonderful that these discussions can exist. Thanks for making it happen!

  • @kenchristiansen4663
    @kenchristiansen46632 жыл бұрын

    I appreciated Justin pulling conversation towards the pragmatic and experiential, because that is where it hits home for so many of us. Tragedy can strike at an early age, but as the years pass we become more contemplative. I experienced acute suffering and death of my spouse, and was afforded the opportunity to sense God’s presence and peace through the process. I didn’t expect that, and to be clear I didn’t, and still don’t, want it, but it changed me. In a visceral way, not through reason or intellect, my faith was affirmed.

  • @Early2000sCringe

    @Early2000sCringe

    Жыл бұрын

    How do you know that was God, and not just your brain giving you a hallucinatory experience? And how do you know it's a specific God?

  • @tommore3263

    @tommore3263

    Жыл бұрын

    A light in the midst of darkness.

  • @Eserr7856

    @Eserr7856

    Жыл бұрын

    ​@@Early2000sCringe I think it was based on his personal life experience, knowing himself, his beliefs, how his mind works, how his emotions work, how his senses work and then experiencing something that was not from himself or from "beyond" himself that he knew from intuition, that it was divine. As to being able to "prove" it was God, that is not possible, because God is always greater (as Bishop Barron reminds us) than our rational mind's ability to comprehend. Finally, I would say that is where "faith" comes in, which is the ability beyond reason for us to "know" God exists and he is trustworthy.

  • @MerrittCluff
    @MerrittCluff3 жыл бұрын

    Somehow this discussion is wonderfully respectful and deep. For me these arguments need to come back to how love is ultimately compelling.

  • @HarryNicNicholas

    @HarryNicNicholas

    2 жыл бұрын

    there is so much patronising bollocks on this page.

  • @Miatpi
    @Miatpi3 жыл бұрын

    Been waiting for this!

  • @dan69052

    @dan69052

    3 жыл бұрын

    teach the children truth How does all religion start? It starts with the children . Here is a short 4:00 min video that sets the stage. Look it up on KZread “Welcome to This World”. Sound familiar?

  • @1minchess123
    @1minchess1232 жыл бұрын

    Great job the moderator , in a long time I had a good 1.5 hrs of thinking👍

  • @user-fj6kk1vo8n
    @user-fj6kk1vo8n3 жыл бұрын

    Productive dialogue comes with patience and understanding. When you can argue your opponents position, only then can you see progress. Either your position is strengthened or the stronger position wins out.

  • @tylerzsommer
    @tylerzsommer3 жыл бұрын

    Justin, excellent job again! Thank you for being an amazing host to an awesome show. I came here once again to watch Alex debate, but I love how professionally and kindly you run these. Long time listener from Japan

  • @McCaffreyPickleball

    @McCaffreyPickleball

    2 жыл бұрын

    Word

  • @user-vs9sd9vj1o

    @user-vs9sd9vj1o

    Жыл бұрын

    You are not japanese and live in Japan?

  • @jilllie4480
    @jilllie44803 жыл бұрын

    Wow very well explained Bishop Barron. What a revelation. Thank you so much to all of you. GBU all. Greetings from Indonesia

  • @PoogiBear1

    @PoogiBear1

    3 жыл бұрын

    @Nath Krishna tf?

  • @1minchess123
    @1minchess1232 жыл бұрын

    So far I never liked theological arguments from any one untill this video. I like Bishop Barron views and ideas 🤗 This discussion does put my mind to think , thank you Alex and Barron

  • @tjblues01

    @tjblues01

    2 жыл бұрын

    A side note; why even moderator addresses Mr. O'Connor as "Alex" and Mr. Barron as "bishop"? I find that tendency to be disrespectful.

  • @random-kr7gr
    @random-kr7gr2 жыл бұрын

    Very beautiful exchange of ideas. To me even as it seems to be the case that the intellectual side of the humanity will not be able to ultimately solve the question, It is still meaningful question and also not completely distinct of reason. One way or the other we still need the will to believe as William James once argued in his essay.

  • @HauxYZ250
    @HauxYZ2503 жыл бұрын

    This could have been three times as long and it would have been too short. It ended just as it was getting good.

  • @dan69052

    @dan69052

    3 жыл бұрын

    the joy of children How does all religion start? It starts with the children . Here is a short 4:00 min video that sets the stage. Look it up on KZread “Welcome to This World”. Sound familiar?

  • @Emmalittlepengelly1690

    @Emmalittlepengelly1690

    3 жыл бұрын

    It should have been much shorter and got to the big issues quicker. Barron just wanted to use the cosmological argument and I agree that it got interesting around 1hrour mark, becasue Barron was floundering on the issue of suffering. Alex was very dignified, I would have pointed to examples of suffering caused by the direct actions of the catholic church clergy on children.

  • @HauxYZ250

    @HauxYZ250

    3 жыл бұрын

    @@Emmalittlepengelly1690 I am sure Alex focused on natural suffering to avoid the free will response for intentional evil perpetrated by rational beings.

  • @MrFungus420

    @MrFungus420

    3 жыл бұрын

    @@HauxYZ250 Why? The "free-will defense" is indefensible. It is false according to Christian doctrine and the Bible. If evil is a necessary consequence of free-will, then Heaven is either full of automatons without free-will or there is evil in Heaven (in which case, it would not be Heaven by definition).

  • @HauxYZ250

    @HauxYZ250

    3 жыл бұрын

    @@MrFungus420 It’s not a necessary consequence of free will. It is logically possible that all rational creatures could freely choose to not commit evil.

  • @mcdonaldgeraldmark
    @mcdonaldgeraldmark3 жыл бұрын

    I've followed Bishop Barron for quite some time now. I have to say this young man spoke very well.

  • @MilesMariae
    @MilesMariae2 жыл бұрын

    Barron is an intellectual, no doubt about it. I don't always agree with him but man, I'm glad he exists.

  • @TechnologicZb
    @TechnologicZb2 жыл бұрын

    Wonderful debate/discussion!

  • @jesseplatt2842
    @jesseplatt28423 жыл бұрын

    Love the dialouge...very informative and fruitful. I would love to see Father Spitzer, Father Gregory Pine, Roy Abraham Varghese, or Peter Kreeft...Bishop Barron did a great job!!! I like how Alex is very respectful and seems to be open minded.

  • @dan69052

    @dan69052

    3 жыл бұрын

    teach the children How does all religion start? It starts with the children . Here is a short 4:00 min video that sets the stage. Look it up on KZread “Welcome to This World”. Sound familiar?

  • @CB-fb5mi
    @CB-fb5mi3 жыл бұрын

    As a non theist, I say props to Unbelievable, they produce great content!

  • @unkownoflife5959

    @unkownoflife5959

    3 жыл бұрын

    Why are you a non theist?

  • @Lanthardol

    @Lanthardol

    3 жыл бұрын

    I’m curious, why do you call yourself non theist? Is it different to you then atheist, if so how? Most people would probably say atheist/anti-theist so you got me wondering about your word choice.

  • @CB-fb5mi

    @CB-fb5mi

    3 жыл бұрын

    @@Lanthardol I identify as a non-theistic Christian along the lines of Bishop Shelby Spong, if you are familiar with his work. I don’t believe the classic theistic God exists, but the Jesus tradition and Christian mysticism are very important to me. I don’t have a problem with ‘normal atheists’, but I don’t like identifying with just not believing in something. However, for the purposes of commenting on this channel, I thought non theist would be the easiest way to simply indicate that I don’t believe that the God bishop Barron believes in exists. If I said “as a humanist Christian”, most people would have no idea what I’m talking about lol

  • @shankz8854

    @shankz8854

    3 жыл бұрын

    @@CB-fb5mi “humanist Christian” sounds like an oxymoron/contradiction to me. Do you believe in the resurrection or that Jesus was supernatural? Do you believe in all the teachings of the bible or just the bits that are compatible with humanism? What does Christianity add to humanism? Cultural identity?

  • @CB-fb5mi

    @CB-fb5mi

    3 жыл бұрын

    @@shankz8854 You can think what you want about it I guess. For me, Christianity is a choice about how you live your life, it’s not a set of beliefs/propositions. I fully accept that Jesus of Nazareth was a normal human just like everyone else. I of course started my journey as a conservative Christian, as I would imagine every humanist Christian has. It’s a perspective that comes from hard won wrestling with conservative theology, I’m not just picking two worldviews at random and trying to do a mashup...

  • @hugoher01
    @hugoher012 жыл бұрын

    “If it is true, then it is the most important truth there is” Couldn’t agree more with Alex.

  • @sandysutherland2182

    @sandysutherland2182

    2 жыл бұрын

    ‘IF’ it is true. A bloody big ‘IF’!!

  • @WaterCat5

    @WaterCat5

    2 жыл бұрын

    Issue is I can think of something more important (a super god for example). Should we study that? Obviously not because there is no proof; it is a baseless assertion. So it is with Christianity. Other than the social impetus of it (which is a poor reason to study it in the context of a truth claim), there is nor reason to study it. There is no real proof Christianity is valid.

  • @eleanorbertuch135
    @eleanorbertuch1352 жыл бұрын

    Awesome conversation 🙏🙏🙏🙏

  • @danajudd11
    @danajudd113 жыл бұрын

    Intelligent, civil discourse like this, regarding this incredibly, even critically important idea is very much appreciated and unfortunately, far too rare!

  • @-Zer0Dark-

    @-Zer0Dark-

    3 жыл бұрын

    It's not all that important, actually. We've only been led to believe it is because someone told us we have an eternal soul, and that it's in jeopardy. They invented a problem, and now our culture believes it's "critically important" to address it. Imagine the infinite number of potentially critically important problems we've never worried about, because they've yet to be conceptualized and brought to the table.

  • @danajudd11

    @danajudd11

    3 жыл бұрын

    @@-Zer0Dark- Who is this "someone" who "told us", and similarly, who are the "they" who "invented" the "problem"? For that matter, what is the "problem"? Additionally, if this idea is not important, even critically important, then what might be, not including, of course, the as yet, not "conceptualized"? Finally, if the ideas discussed in this conversation between Mr. O'Connor and Bishop Baron are not important, in your view, then why would you spend any time on it, let alone comment in regards to it?

  • @joezilla07
    @joezilla073 жыл бұрын

    I've been waiting years to see Bishop Barron debate someone on these ideas. He is a master of this type of discourse. Alex O'Connor is intelligent and respectful, which made me happy to see. I wish him all the best. Bravo to Unbelievable for putting this together! All the best to all who watch!

  • @roneldsilva546

    @roneldsilva546

    3 жыл бұрын

    Bishop Barron is at best a theologist, and very far from the likes of great thinkers and philosophers. I mean no disrespect when I say this but I hope Alex gets on debates with more competent people to bring out the best in him

  • @bun197

    @bun197

    3 жыл бұрын

    @@roneldsilva546 yeah because there are no theists in the history of philosophy right? oh wait, thats like 90% of them.

  • @roneldsilva546

    @roneldsilva546

    3 жыл бұрын

    @@bun197 I never said there are no theists. I just said he’s more of a theologian and not a philosopher.

  • @DarthMakroth

    @DarthMakroth

    2 жыл бұрын

    @@roneldsilva546 lol

  • @DarthMakroth

    @DarthMakroth

    2 жыл бұрын

    @@bun197 if you look up famous philosophers on Google it displays first the famous pagan Greek philosophers, you then find Immanuel Kant a untraditional theist, Nietzsche who is an atheist then Karl Marx an atheist, Confucius who was another pagan who didn't believe in God, David Hume another atheist.

  • @jshmthw
    @jshmthw2 жыл бұрын

    This is a fantastic example of a beautiful exchange. Every point gets added on to by each other’s rebuttal. Their whole is greater than the sum of their individual comments. We love this Justin! Thank you!

  • @RobinChedgey
    @RobinChedgey8 ай бұрын

    1:27:19 the "Oh boy" from @CosmicSkeptic here was pure perfection 😂😂😂

  • @heathershea8707
    @heathershea87073 жыл бұрын

    Holy smokes! That was great! They both were so gracious, respectful and put forth compelling arguments! I could have watched them go back and forth all day!

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