I've had a lot of time to reflect on the last 30 minutes of the conversation and have some thoughts. First, I was hesitant to even include that section because I think I could have modeled the intellectual virtues a whole lot better. As some have noted in the comments, I came across stiff, robot-like, even defensive. However, instead of cut the clip out, I decided to keep it in as a lesson (to myself and others). Second, during the editing phase, I realized that I said some pretty cringe stuff (e.g., "how can something represent something if it's not identical?") that I didn't need to to make the point I was attempting to make. For some reason, during the time, I really believed that arguments couldn't even be represented by questions (I no longer think that). Third, as much as I'd like to say that, as a result of listening back, I now agree with Alex, I still have to say that I don't, at least in one important respect. Even if arguments can be represented by questions, which I'm now happy to grant, it doesn't follow that the two are *identical*. To use Alex's analogy, even if "the suitcase" and "un valise" represent the same thing, that doesn't make those two statements identical; one is English, the other is French. Nor does it make either statement (in either language) identical to a suitcase, a suitcase is a physical object, statements are not. My claim, my slogan, is a claim of identity. Questions are not identical to arguments. So ultimately, I still stand by my slogan. Fourth, I am happy to agree with Alex that what a question represents can be the thing that ultimately has the most value. Fifth, why are you still reading this? Sixth, I think what this clip ultimately does is show the value of doing philosophy slowly. That's another reason to include it. Had I slowed down and stopped to reflect on what Alex was actually saying, I potentially could have realized what I've come to realize now. Philosophy is best done slowly.

@elijahsmith226

Жыл бұрын

Thanks for the honesty and humility!

@BigIdeaSeeker

Жыл бұрын

1) I’m more interested in your thoughts on inclusivism and universalism (as you spoke of around 21:00ff.). Can you direct me to a video where you or others cover this in a way that you find convincing? 2) Why do you insist on wearing that damned hat backwards? Looks ridiculous (but your millennial friends won’t tell you that). :)

@Defiantclient

Жыл бұрын

Appreciate your honesty!

@kennethanderson8770

Жыл бұрын

2 things on sin and hell. We go to hell because we sin not because we don’t believe in Jesus. Belief in him is the pardon from that sin. Second the reason belief in Jesus as God is required for salvation is because God wants a relationship with you for sanctification in life and for the mere relationship. If you actively don’t belief Christianity is true you most likely cannot have a relationship with the creator. That’s not to say if someone never comes across the gospel they cannot be saved after death, but I do not think that someone actively saying I don’t believe this will be saved.

@haydenwalton2766

Жыл бұрын

good on you Cameron. could it be you've taken something from the wlc incident? you'll earn plenty of respect from people if you admit you've erred. it shows moral and intellectual courage

I love how Alex’s youth and extreme polite Britishness clash so beautifully in his speech. “Oh dear, it appears someone’s been dunked upon.”

@marishasveganworld2240

Жыл бұрын

Agreed!

@fqidz

9 ай бұрын

timestamp?

@ogre4104

4 ай бұрын

😂

@JiviteshBakshi

3 ай бұрын

average englishman

Cosmic skeptic definitely has done his homework and he understands Christianity. His discussion about Universalism and inclusiveism and annihilationism was excellent.

@Shitgotmegeekin

Жыл бұрын

Considering he has a theology degree from an Oxbridge school I’d think ”homework” is a bit of an understatement.

@fluffysheap

Жыл бұрын

@@Shitgotmegeekin it was literally his homework 😁

@WhatYourPastorDidntTellYou

Жыл бұрын

Yeah he’s done his homework for sure. My only critique is his lack of understanding of Ancient Near Eastern culture in the Genesis/evolution discussion. 😬

@victorjvanderwoude3102

Жыл бұрын

Cosmic Skeptic does understand certain types of arguments quite well. I wouldn't then claim he understands Christianity. For him, Christianity is a thought exercise and microscope specimen. Everything is subjective; the battle was already won by science and "reason" long ago. It's the theoretical/debates about logic and reason/ideas/philosophical arguments etc he enjoys. He's just an atheist with the same kinds of roadblocks caused by his worldview. He's just generally more respectful and more knowledgeable about a wider set of reasoning/subjects than most atheist debaters. I appreciate his willingness to converse. However this particular conversation was over run by the Cosmic Skeptic's excessive verbiage and ego. Cosmic Skeptic has a way of framing subjects that tends to spread so quickly in ideas that it becomes difficult to recognize when he's mixing concepts (which makes his arguments sometimes confusing), overlaying facts that are really opinions based on his worldview, and performs like a lecturer who overload his audience with excessive words. He played the teacher and it's obnoxious. For example, the argument that location determines religion (implying religion is a cultural attribute rather than a conscious reasoned choice for most believers - not based on truth). Cosmic Skeptic keep mentioning someplace in Saudi Arabia and Indonesia (I don't remember the details). That's not a reasonable example - he's exaggerating his claim by using extremes. It's like pointing to Vatican city. Yes some places are extreme but that not the norm. It's small points which fly by quick in which his Achilles heel becomes evident.

@pasimajuri1209

Жыл бұрын

This is god >kzread.info/dash/bejne/dW11sdeelNm1nqw.html

I think Alex has the better case regarding questions vs. arguments. Questions often communicate arguments quite effectively.

@20july1944

Жыл бұрын

Strongly agree! Questions often communicate arguments quite effectively.

@CapturingChristianity

Жыл бұрын

Yes, but communicating or representing an argument doesn’t make questions and arguments identical. (I’ve given this a good deal of thought since our conversation. I wish I could say I was persuaded by Alex.)

@josiahsimeth3681

Жыл бұрын

@@CapturingChristianity If someone said "I've released 5 videos about this already" you could say "videos aren't arguments" and you'd be justified if you meant "none of the videos communicated an argument" but not if you were just pointing out that videos and arguments are different things.

@RanchElder

Жыл бұрын

@@CapturingChristianity Questions and arguments aren't literally identical, so the slogan is trivially true. Alex's point is that the representational identity is what matters. If questions and arguments can both represent the same thought, Hemant's original video wasn't committing some grave error in presenting questions in the place of arguments. Likewise for others who use questions in lieu of explicitly spelling out a syllogism with every utterance.

@noahwinslow3252

Жыл бұрын

@@CapturingChristianity no one says they're the same, that's the straw man you present

Cameron spent a bunch of money on his “Questions aren’t arguments” T-shirt’s, didn’t he?

@bruisedviolets

9 ай бұрын

lmaooo

@CosmicTeapot

8 ай бұрын

I love the argument made with your question :) I agree, I think it's definitely why he's sticking to his guns even in the update/replies in the comments, he definitely doesn't want to affect the sales by admitting that the slogan is intellectually bankrupt and only trivially/pedantically valid. 1 year later, I've just checked his shop and they are no longer for sale, so I guess he managed to clear his stock lol

@ghostrecon3214

8 ай бұрын

Interesting, Jesus quite frequently answered questions with questions. I heard that from the late Ravi, and his point was that questions invite or cause the other person to grapple with the assumption of their question. It has stuck with me for 15+ years

I really appreciate Alex being so respectful to Christianity! It honestly allows me to consider his thoughts 💭

@marksandsmith6778

Жыл бұрын

Juck Fesus

@TheOpenCouchPodcast

Жыл бұрын

@@Kastled5 it really doesn’t. It just means that I’m more susceptible to listen to a respectful person than someone who is condescending and rude.

@TheOpenCouchPodcast

Жыл бұрын

@@Kastled5 one must be respectful before I take anything they say into consideration or at bare minimum, listen to them. That doesn’t mean I agree with them it’s just a human response to being “Ohk the dude is respectful and non argumentative. Sure I’ll listen”. Your Reading way too into it brother

@bitcoinweasel9274

Жыл бұрын

@@Kastled5 Dude, that's a perfectly normal human response. We all have to use shortcuts for when to listen to someone's arguments and when not to (for instance, I won't listen to a wild eyed guy on the corner screaming incoherently about the end of the world). A very common one is, "I won't listen to jerks". They may have a valid point, but they're also very likely to be trolls, so I'll also happily skip listening to them.

@TheOpenCouchPodcast

Жыл бұрын

@@peppr115 i believe the cosmic skeptic says pretty clear himself. He wasn’t always this respectful. He was pretty rude before and arrogant. But don’t hear it from me, Alex OConnor talks on his take of Christianity before actually studying it

Alex: "Can you give me that apple?" Cameron: "''Apple' is just a representation for the apple, it is not identical to the physical apple itself, so no, I cannot give you the 'apple'. Alex: " You know what I mean, just give me the damn apple!" 😅

@unnefer001

9 ай бұрын

I want to make a t-shirt that says the Kalam Cosmological Argument isn't an argument.

@ReclusiveAsta

9 ай бұрын

@@unnefer001 I'd buy it

@amullac9207

6 ай бұрын

A short cut to an icon on a computer is not the computers icon it serves as a representative of an icon. You can delete the representation an the program would still function. The icon itself is a representative to the source code and function that the coding represents. One cannot escape the need for language to communicate the most fundamental functional requirements necessary to form an argument as a vehicle for communication. Number for example would still function logically but are only used mean fully when communicating them. I have just wrote this all out as a representative to meaning. There is an implied argument behind my words.

Cameron saying "I don't know what you mean by thought" is in serious danger of being taken out of context 😂

@min24434

9 ай бұрын

I actually wanted to hear more about that but SAdly CC didn't go too deep into it.

@kyle9933

29 күн бұрын

even in context he sounds like a complete idiot, but did we expect anything less...

I highly respect this level of conversation on a such a touchy topic.

I'm a Christian, but I need for Cameron to open up to active listening and see what is said about the t-shirt slogan. Don't be defensive. Accept the sound argument on that point. Change the t-shirt Slightly if necessary. It's ok to be wrong. I love the conversation all the way through.

@misterunlovely

Жыл бұрын

I appreciate to see someone else mention it cause it was frustrating me honestly. I'm more on the atheist side of things, but Cameron always seemed like a decent interlocutor and a good guy so I got more respect for him than a lot of others but the Tshirt part was difficult to listen to. Maybe it's cause I'm autistic so I had to face the whole thing with questions effectively acting as arguments thing in a way most people don't have to that it bothers me. It's just a fact that most people use questions like arguments in certain contexts and there's nothing really wrong with it, it's just one of those subtle communication things with people. I had to face it and figure it out the hard way as a kid so to see it come up here is just frustrating

@karlu8553

Жыл бұрын

Yeah that was painful, and a little embarrassing to see him double down

@brennanho9282

Жыл бұрын

Definitely got defensive.

@AnthonyThomason14

Жыл бұрын

He sometimes has a Mr. Spock problem. Mr. Chekov: we are an hour away from Earth. Mr. Spock: FALSE! WE ARE 59 MINUTES AND 59 SECONDS FROM EARTH. Mr. Chekov: uh..ok. sure.

@aroemaliuged4776

Жыл бұрын

So why are you a Christian then? Nice fuzzy felling that won’t be denied you? The middle ground doesn’t work on the question of whether their is a god

Slogans discussed - 1. There is no evidence - 1:24 2. The Kalaam doesn't get you all the way to God - 9:52 3. If you had been born elsewhere you would not be a Christian - 16:19 4. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - 30:35 5. Claims are not evidence - 39:41 6. Science is the only reliable guide to truth - 45:00 7. Atheism is just a lack a belief in God - 54:10 8. I just believe in one less god than you do - 1:00:30 9. Evolution disproves God - 1:06:12 10. Who created God - 1:15:50

@FakingANerve

Жыл бұрын

Thanks! Cheers.

@NestorVass

Жыл бұрын

5. Might be on 39:41 instead of 36

@samanthamorgan8117

Жыл бұрын

Woot! Thank you!

@andrewfairborn6762

Жыл бұрын

All valid defeaters for God and bible thumping Christians.

@leahcimoyatse5511

Жыл бұрын

@@andrewfairborn6762 Do you genuinely believe that?

Alex is brilliant and well-mannered. kudos.

@Dhorpatan

Жыл бұрын

🤮🙄

@victorjvanderwoude3102

Жыл бұрын

I won't give him "brilliant" but he is certainly well mannered and knowledgeable.

@Lyonessi

Жыл бұрын

A bit fruity but aren't we all

I think Alex's argument on questions as arguments is right. as soon as it was challenged I knew it was going to end up as a disagreement on language. because I'm a programmer, I like to think of it in terms of programming. in C there's something called a variable and a pointer. a variable is just a label for a specific piece of data saved in memory, and a pointer is the thing the label uses to indicate what bit of data it's representing. for instance, if I have a variable named "i" and had it pointing to an integer with the value "2" i is effectively referencing 2. now, I can also construct a variable "x" and also have it point to the same 2. the variables are distinct as I and x are different variables, but they're pointing at the same piece of memory. Alex was indicating that these questions and arguments are effectively variables pointing at the same state of mind.

@binghiroy

11 ай бұрын

Alex really dropped the ball on this bit. There was no need for that endless back-and-forth. When a question is posed as an argument, it typically assumes the syllogism on which it is based. Most times it would be, as Alex pointed out, redundant and insipid to spell out the well understood syllogism. In such cases the question thus serves as a more succinct contraction--often the most potent form--of the argument. In short, the question can most certainly BE the argument. Even when that argument is weak, it's no less an argument. A spelled-out syllogism can also be weak. I guess he just might have allowed Cameron's intransigence to blindside him. It happens to the best of us. And perhaps Cameron, as @mrmaat and others suggest here, felt the need to protect his investment.

@jzeppy1

10 ай бұрын

I think of the "question representing an argument" like compression in computer science, and "a question is not an argument" as a reminder that our compression can be lossy.

@anthonydesimone502

10 ай бұрын

You could've made this point more straightforwardly by only talking about variables and how two variables can point to the same bit of data stored in memory. And pointers are a type of variable, not a separate thing.

@benedictmclindon8090

4 ай бұрын

@@binghiroy why did alex drop the ball? i think he was extremely patient and polite despite cameron refusing to agree with the simple and proven conclusion "questions can be argument's" i know for a fact i would have gotten 1 minute and 30 seconds into that convo with cameron and instantly given up as he was obviously not wanting to admit it. but because of cosmic skeptics patience (and these comments) he wrote an apology comment and has changed his mind (somewhat) haha

Regarding the whole "Questions are not Arguments" bit at the end, I think it's worth pointing out other places where questions play a role other than just eliciting information. If you call your wife and tell say "Honey, I'm stuck in traffic. Can you pick up the kids from school?" and then you got home and she hadn't picked up the kids, you'd be rightfully pissed if she retorted that "Questions aren't imperatives." Part of the conversational function of questions in the place of imperatives is to sound nicer and less confrontational. I think often that is what’s happening when someone substitutes a question in place of an argument. Furthermore, questions and arguments can be linked more or less directly. Perhaps most relevant to this point, questions could *embed* arguments: e.g., “What do you think of the argument [argument]?” Is that question identical to the argument it embeds? No, in the sense that the words and sentence structure aren’t identical. Is it going to play the same conversational role? Yes, exactly the same. I think another way of rephrasing Alex's points from the discussion is to say that questions can *implicitly embed* arguments (whereas in my above example the question *explicitly embeds* the argument). As long as the conversation partner recognizes the implication, a question can serve exactly the same role as an argument.

@joannware6228

Жыл бұрын

These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. John 16:33 (KJV) "Do you believe this? The standard human approach is, “Well, if God is omnipotent, then why doesn’t He come up with a better way?” Some things must be left in the hidden counsels of God, and this is one of them, but suffice it to say that suffering is a most effective school-master. Consider the Apostle Paul’s assertion…" (3) And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; (4) And patience, experience; and experience, hope: Romans 5:3-4 (KJV) Ken Axelson "Thought For The Day"

@joannware6228

Жыл бұрын

@Anon Ymous We learn and obtain the best things in life through suffering. If your goal in life is for it to be easy, comfortable, and wealthy and you are disappointed and bitter and ungrateful if things don't go your way then you are going to lead an unhappy and miserable life. If you try to avoid suffering the more you will suffer. That's the way life is. You can blame God but that won't change anything. What worthwhile have you ever accomplished that didn't take effort and some suffering? Do you think the terminal patients would like to hear how awful it is that they're dying? Would that comfort them? Life is very short and most of us die sooner than we expect. That's why it's foolish to place all your hopes and dreams on your physical life.

@chrissonofpear1384

Жыл бұрын

Ah, and so that's why Mother Teresa neglected palliative care so much, in her hostels then, Jo Ann Ware ?

@DoctorShocktor

Жыл бұрын

No, just no. Both your statements are simply statements of other forms of language. Has nothing at all about the formation of arguments or gathering evidence.

@DoctorShocktor

Жыл бұрын

@@joannware6228 Perfect language of a victim there, Jo Ann - Here, you can have the BEST candy in the store if you let me BEAT you first. Sad and untrue. First of all, you jam a gigantic IF into your presupposition that wealthy and comfortable is a formula for being unhappy and miserable. Please supply some citations and statistics for that claim, thanks. Plenty of wealthy and comfortable people have fantastic lives, it’s not an instant formula for misery. Lastly, GOD if all powerful, etc. could easily have just created us all as balls of energy that experience nothing but pleasure and have no suffering at all. The hook, line, and sinker that you’ve swallowed, including disregarding the very short life you’ve lucked into on Earth for an unproven promise of something better is sad beyond compare.

Thank god for Alex O'Connor

@joshuathomas512

Жыл бұрын

Thank god, the son, and the holy spirit

Skeptic and non-believer here. I just want to give Cameron a shout out -- I haven't watched the last 30 minutes yet (I read the pinned comment and it sounds like it deserves careful consideration), but after seeing the rest of the video, I'm very pleasantly surprised. I haven't been the biggest fan of some of his work in the past, but these recent in-person videos with Alex have provided so much insight and thought-provoking discussion, and he's been really charitable and open minded. I will say that I also agree with the recent Rationality Rules response to the WLC discussion -- I'd love to see Cameron be as careful and charitable with his other content as he has been here. I feel like he has a lot to offer for open-minded skeptics, and I'd love to keep listening if he's more charitable with his other content in the future.

I love how charitable Alex is.

@mugsofmirth8101

Жыл бұрын

Which charities does he represent or donate to ?

@user-rq8xx8ir9t

Жыл бұрын

it couldnt be less charities than the christian god donates to unless its a negative number but also like thats not what he means by charitable

@NordicFireDKK

11 ай бұрын

@@mugsofmirth8101 he means charitable in terms for arguments. He doesnt assume the dumbest version of the argument and doesnt assume cliches etc. So being charitable in an argument means arguing in good faith and giving the benefit of the doubt.

@bruisedviolets

9 ай бұрын

@@user-rq8xx8ir9tgod donates to charities now? that’s a new one😂

Wow, two hours long but the time flew by on this one. Alex is awesome!

You can bring a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink. The last bit of the video is a slog. No matter who it is, watching someone in real time avoid thinking about another’s person’s ideas and merely repeat themselves without even the barest engagement is tedious in the least, and often, disheartening.

@PAWiley

3 ай бұрын

Lead, it's lead a horse to water. lol. I agree wholeheartedly. What I think I've known for quite some time but have only very recently pinpointed is, from my perspective, a crucial difference between the genesis, the motivation and approach of these two individuals. Where Alex seems to be driven by, and focused on, what is evidently more true, by what seems undeniably to make more sense, Cameron seems driven by what he's already convinced is true or, more specifically, what he feels ought to be true, what he truly believes is best for everyone if true. I've only just started trying to put this into words and, clearly, I'm still working on it. Does this make sense, though? If so, is there a better way to explain it?

@norsketilbakeblikk3717

Ай бұрын

@@PAWiley I agree with you. But it’s also clear to me that the two people conversing are not in the same intelligence bracket.

Cameron is really trying to weasel out of that last question, "questions aren't arguments". He'd earn more respect by just dropping it.

@InShadowsLinger

Жыл бұрын

But that represents t shirt sales. So not easy to give up.

@joannware6228

Жыл бұрын

These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. John 16:33 (KJV) "Do you believe this? The standard human approach is, “Well, if God is omnipotent, then why doesn’t He come up with a better way?” Some things must be left in the hidden counsels of God, and this is one of them, but suffice it to say that suffering is a most effective school-master. Consider the Apostle Paul’s assertion…" (3) And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; (4) And patience, experience; and experience, hope: Romans 5:3-4 (KJV) Ken Axelson "Thought For The Day"

@DoctorShocktor

Жыл бұрын

@@joannware6228 Did someone request some fairy tale quotes? I’m missing seeing that anywhere.

@WhatsTheTakeaway

Жыл бұрын

Alex and Cameron are operating off two different definitions of argument here. Cameron is using the philosophical definition of premises, conclusion and supporting evidence, and Alex is using the colloquial definition of "conveying thoughts". Hard to get to a resolution with such a divide as that.

@WhatsTheTakeaway

Жыл бұрын

@@Kastled5 You believe "questions aren't arguments" to be Camerons most popular contribution? I don't. And it shouldn't be shocking that two people talk past each other when those two people are talking about different contexts. In all these comments, not a single person is asking a question, instead they are offering arguments for their position that "questions are arguments".

This is a perfect example of why this type of conversation is so necessary. It's so easy to becoming so immovable in a perspective without understanding how we arrive at conclusions or articulate ourselves in a way that we dont end up dancing around the issues and each other in conversation or debate. I've found this is true of both Christians and non-Christians in debate. Its probably what makes debates really hard for me to watch

I appreciate Alex. Such a thoughtful, careful, charitable thinker.

If Alex was interested in “destroying” Cameron here…he definitely could have. He was on a different, higher level and Cameron really couldn’t compete. But I respect Alex because that’s not his intention, he’s a good guy that genuinely wants to have a challenging conversation. He’s going to have to search a little harder for someone on his level though.

@qwektnn

9 ай бұрын

Frankly, it's difficult for religious people to win debate against rational thinkers because religion is full of lies and delusions by the root. It seems to work because it targets susceptible, naive, weak and dumb people, which make up majority of the population.

This was a great convo, thanks Cameron.

I think this conversation perfectly encapsulates the difference between someone who has a degree in philosophy and someone who doesn't. The clarity and force of thought coming from Alex is just in a difference league.

@victorjvanderwoude3102

Жыл бұрын

I get the point but that doesn't equate to a win or lose for either position. It's simply points out Alex is a better philosophical thinker. The underlying argumentation doesn't really change that much except in precision of language to express those views.

@jangohemmes352

Жыл бұрын

@@victorjvanderwoude3102 I don't think Aaron meant to say Alex "won". I do however think Alex's arguments were better, not just worded better. But hey, that's personal, this is not a sports match, just a friendly philosophical chat

@victorjvanderwoude3102

Жыл бұрын

@@jangohemmes352 Ok. I appreciate your reply.

@Beyond_Right

Жыл бұрын

I thought he was still studying for one?

I sided with Alex a lot on this video. Formally I'm pretty deep into mathematics and that's given me the illusion that I'm also deep into knowledge about rhetoric. But this video has helped me realize that mathematical and logical truth are not everything there is to discussion and debate. I think i've been too stiff and defensive when discussing things with my peers. In particular, in math you don't have to worry about what someone means by a statement. Everything is so formalized that there is no ambiguity. I think this has lead me to do this outside of math as well, where I refute someone's words rather than the thought those words represent. I think this causes me to stifle discussion and silence my interlocutors more than it should. I feel this is contrary to the essence of what debate should be: a theatre to enhance understanding and learn new ideas. So thank you for the discussion, this has been a wonderful video. I hope some day to be on Alex's level of communication and clarity. Capturing Christianity, you did a great job creating a good environment for this discussion to take place, well done!

@charltonrodda

5 ай бұрын

Learning to respond to the intent behind a statement rather than the statement itself is important. I used to constantly point out anything I saw as an error, and thought I was doing a great service, much like the wiggly red line under a word. But... that only makes sense if you are preparing something to be seen by others. If you are in dialogue, then unnecessarily correcting the minutiae tends to be disrespectful of everything else the other person put into their communication to you. If their mistake is large enough to be relevant to the point they were making, then mention it only as much as is necessary to steel-man it, and then respond to the steel-man.

In the whole time that Cameron was arguing that "Questions are not arguments" did he present one syllogism? Or did he spend his time asking questions and making assertions?

@WhatsTheTakeaway

Жыл бұрын

He asked clarifying questions to better understand the argument. Notice, Alex presented an argument, and didnt just ask questions.

Definitly thanks for keeping the ending in, even though it wasted all our time debating something that was blatantly obvious. Alex is so patient in talking with someone who doesn't understand what the word 'represent' means. It's just so painfully 1st grade language it's hard to understand how he's struggling with it. 30 min could've been better spent but we get a great insignt into the minds of the christian believers it's actually a great showing of how the christian mind can resist logic and foil itself in the presence of a better argument

Great conversation. Well done!

That "no evidence" is kinda semantics, because for most people "bad evidence" means no evidence. Because in court, if there are bad evidence, they are inadmissible and therefore no evidence for the case.

@mkano7434

11 ай бұрын

Interesting, I'd use a court analogy to say the opposite - in court we often establish someone's guilt despite the existance of evidence hinting at innocence. So it's silly to hold the word "evidence" to such a high standards if the courts acknowledge that evidence doesn't even have to point to truth.

@toxiccc777

11 ай бұрын

Besides that, when christians talk about "evidence for god", they are usually talking about things, that would nowhere else be considered "evidence" except in theology. For example stuff like "personal experience". If there really was evidence for a god, it would have been easy to mention it here in this discussion.

@mkano7434

11 ай бұрын

@@toxiccc777 Testimonies are actually considered evidence in court.

@toxiccc777

11 ай бұрын

@@mkano7434 That is not true for testimonies of things that have no empirical basis. No court in the world will accept a testimony like "a ghost did the murder".

@HillBelichick

9 ай бұрын

​@@mkano7434the unreliability of eyewitness testimony is likewise a thoroughly studied phenomenon in human psychology.

Two smart, inquisitive young men having a great conversation. Love to see it

@joshuathomas512

Жыл бұрын

Except only one is actually smart

@Steelmage99

Жыл бұрын

Well, you are half right.

@snufkinsnufkin2528

5 ай бұрын

the other one is makibg terrible arguments or no arguments at all until the very end where all logic goes out of the window and is quite embarassing

Alex is awesome; totally fair to the Christian side without strawmanning ! CC is being sincere and also with great points, the last 30 notwithstanding. Always appreciate when a person is sincere and admitting errors! Very interesting chat

Alex: Casual skeptic. His entire outfit: Am I a joke to you?

"A question isn't identical to an arguement so how can it represent it?" 1:32:13 Please tell me that you're brighter than this @Capturing Christianity

@CapturingChristianity

Жыл бұрын

Yeah I cringed pretty hard listening back to that…

@YAWTon

Жыл бұрын

@@CapturingChristianity Don't worry, this was by far not the most cringe-worthy that I have heard from you. Admittedly, the last 30 minutes were a bit painful to watch, but overall this is one of the better CC clips.

@wakkablockablaw6025

Жыл бұрын

@@YAWTon Why are you kicking someone while they are down? Kind of a dick move

@senkuishigami2485

Жыл бұрын

@@CapturingChristianity hey Cam Could you please arrange a formal devil's advocate debate between Alex and Joe on God's existence

“It can’t be representative because it’s not the same thing.” WTF?! That’s what it means to be representative. If it was the same it would be the thing, not representative of the thing. Representative: adj. : Standing for something else

The third chapter of this is just gold. Love Alex a lot!

Great discussion. Thank you!

I think the biggest takeaway here is that most of what we would call "slogans" are people being sloppy and careless with their language. Behind most slogans there exist a stronger version of the argument that could be made and it benefits everyone if in your discussions, you try to speak as precisely as is (reasonably) possible for the context.

@phoult37

Жыл бұрын

Agreed

@adamc1694

Жыл бұрын

" in your discussions, you try to speak as precisely as is (reasonably) possible for the context" Yes, I've pointed this same thing out to atheists many times that this "lack of belief" definition is ambiguous. It couldn't distinguish whether it is a chair, a dead person, a baby or a living man's conscious decision of lacking. It doesn't tell how much it is lacking, 100%, 50% 0%. "people being sloppy and careless with their language" No, on the contrary new atheists invented this "lacking" definition so that they can leave room for themselves to dance around later, to switch the burden of proof to the other side. Alex when he was young made a video claiming atheism IS a lack of belief. Now that after some higher education, he learned that the academic definition is belief of no God or gods, not merely lacking.

@babs_babs

Жыл бұрын

@@adamc1694 i’m not following your point on the “lack of belief” definition being ambiguous. me not believing in god seems very straight forward

@leo--4341

4 ай бұрын

@@adamc1694it’s then ambiguous to say you believe in god while also knowing there’s no way of knowing for certain. youre just choosing cause… you just choose

@adamc1694

4 ай бұрын

@@leo--4341 Kiddo get some education first. You don't even have the basic reasoning skills.

Alex is a more able interpreter of Scripture than most Protestants. His discussion of inclusivism, annihilationism, the difference between a mere nominal acceptance of Christianity vs actually doing the will of the Father, this is almost to a T how I make sense of the Scriptures. Too bad he’s not a Christian. I hope he will be one day though! Blessings on you Alex. Thanks for this interview to both of you!

1:50:09 In my mind 'wanting people to think logically' is a charitable interpretation of the slogan 'questions are not arguments' (side note: Alex is very charitable with the apologists. Something I both love and loath about his style of conversation). To me, the slogan comes off as a slightly snide dismissive that insists on the academic construction of all claims. Sort of as a way to shut down common sense and skeptical conversation.

@Dhorpatan

Жыл бұрын

Wow, that is amazing. Am I to presume you listened to 1 hour and 50 minutes of this? I just had a human being say he couldnt make it through my most popular video, and that video is a total of 7 minutes.🤣

@LagMasterSam

11 ай бұрын

I don't know how you can deny that a question can represent an argument. Technically, nearly anything can represent anything else. The real question is how good is a question at representing an argument, not whether it can or not.

Absolutely delighted by Alex's point that people usually aren't being extremely careful and syllogistic when they offer objections. If you want to be wise, treat arguments charitably, steelman them to find out what they're getting at. Otherwise, you'll toss out a lot of important babies with the bathwater.

I feel like referring to a talking point or argument rebuttal as an “Athiest Slogan” may not be the best way to start a dialogue. In truth, every argument/evidence Ive ever heard is difficult for me to take seriously. However, for the sake of conversation, I am obliged to sincerely contemplate any claim. I would never label them as “slogans”, because it would offend the interlocutor. If that were my intent, I would simply throw rocks at them and say terrible things about their sister.

Can we have an "Analysing 10 Christian slogans" next?

@whydontyoustfu

Жыл бұрын

look at the tree 🌲

@cyfour

Жыл бұрын

@@whydontyoustfu it’s a tree

@youtubespag

Жыл бұрын

I didnt come from a monkey

@youtubespag

Жыл бұрын

Yall just want to sin

@youtubespag

Жыл бұрын

You're like the philistines. The bible says so.

dang! i really admire and appreciate how much Alex knows about ways of approaching Christianity thoughtfully.

Lovely close. Slogans seem to be to language what stereotypes are to visual images. I would say they are good depending on what you do with them.

Thank you to the both of y'all for this conversation! Re: "Questions aren't arguments" When this slogan was first mentioned, I, not being familiar with Capturing Christianity's content, thought of how it is used by believing Mormons to try to assuage the anxieties of Mormons who are struggling with their faith. I've had conversations like the following so many times: - Questioner: I'm just really worried that the church might not be true because there are lots of hard topics in the church's history and teachings, and **I have a lot of questions**. - Believer: Yes, there are some things that are difficult to understand. But you have to remember that **questions are not arguments** against the church. Just because you have questions doesn't mean the church isn't true. We're not going to know all the answers in this life, and that's okay. - Questioner: But some of the questions I have are really, extremely serious. For example, why did Brigham Young teach that "we must believe in slavery?" - Believer: Look, he was a man of his time and he was mistaken. And we don't know why God let him teach that. But just because we don't know that particular answer doesn't mean the church isn't true. We know the really important stuff: that God loves you and that this is his church. The only thing you need to do is hold on to the spiritual witness that you have.... etc etc So in my experience, when believers have said to me, "questions aren't arguments," what they seem to mean is: you shouldn't allow your questions to make you think the church isn't true. Doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith. When used in this way, it seems like what exmos like to call a "thought-stopping technique" meant to discourage questions. I'm curious if other Christians have similar experiences with this kind of conversation? But I know that's not what Alex and Cameron were discussing here, so, moving on: I'm not sure what Cameron's point is when he says (1:51:30): "Questions can represent arguments, but that doesn't mean they *are* arguments." I second Alex's idea that some linguistics is needed here. What do you mean by "questions"? Do you mean linguistic utterances that are in interrogative form? Or do you mean "questions" the way someone means it when they say, "I have questions about this church?" By "Questions aren't Arguments," do you mean: Just because someone confronts you with [question = a linguistic utterance that is in interrogative form] doesn't mean you should worry that they might have found a convincing argument against the existence of a god? (that's kinda circling back to my initial assumptions about the slogan...) Or maybe: Don't let skeptics off the hook if all they've done is ask questions and they haven't properly formed and conveyed a formal argument. ? Thanks again xx

@parkers3700

Жыл бұрын

Interesting example with the Brigham Young thing. I think that this is actually an example of a question that represents an argument, even though the questioner doesn't necessarily believe what the argument is suggesting. I can imagine someone asking the same question simply because they are curious if there is already a known answer to the this puzzling question. But in your example the questioner seems to already know that there isn't a good answer and it is shaking their belief, so while they may have many arguments for why the church is true, they have just found an argument for why it isn't true and are presenting it in the form of a question. As for what Cameron actually means by 'questions', I have to assume that he means questions that are meant to represent arguments. He didn't actually ever explain what he meant by questions in the video I think, but they pretty much were hung up on the same types of questions for the whole discussion. And the slogan itself, "questions aren't arguments" implies that the 'questions' can be mistaken for arguments. There wouldn't be a point in him meaning questions like "where is the bathroom?" because nobody is confusing that for an argument.

@pasimajuri1209

Жыл бұрын

This is god >kzread.info/dash/bejne/dW11sdeelNm1nqw.html

Kalam: We simply do not know that the universe had a beginning. That's just an assumption, which is not proven. The argument is dead on arrival.

@darrenrichards2610

5 күн бұрын

This is his go to and it’s terrible. He used to throw out his Kalam tweets and watch them get debunked without even a reply

for me, the last 20 min (the part where Cameron said 'we've lost the audience') was the best.

O'Connor's response to the"one less God than you" slogan was on point.

I am always most impressed at the brilliance and profound insights of Alex O'Conner in his debates and discussions with others on these religious subjects !

@victorjvanderwoude3102

Жыл бұрын

"Brilliance" and "profound" is over the top. If your familiar with the topics and argumentation than both these words are overkill unless he's a "atheist superman" in your mind. He's a great debater and knowledgeable for sure but his arguments aren't particularly new just well stated.

You absolutely did NOT "lose the audience a while ago" - I love listening to these kinds of conversations. Would love to see this kind of dialogue more often from popular creators.

@DartNoobo

11 ай бұрын

Maybe there is just not enough people like you. Or people en masse prefer heated debates where opponents DESTROY or OWN each other.

On the issue with questions =/= arguments, I agree with Alex that depending on the context they both can point to the same thought or better the same conceptual basis (I mean, thoughts emerge in our heads, presumably from some underlying basis, or pattern that allows for it to be consistently expressed in different ways). Maybe then one argument against using rhetorical questions in that function would be that sometimes they may not be recognized as such?

Alex was just on Unbelievable recently. It was a really good conversation! Can’t wait to watch this!

I love the last part. A crash course in philosophy of language and semiotics. It reminds me the good old days when I studied those topics. Boy did Alex was patient. lol

Brilliant conversation. Very informative and enlightening.

I think in discussing slogan #5, Connor is describing the distinction between the words that make up a claim within an inductive argument, and the speech act of testimony.

We should not forget that The Life of Brian had a sequence that supports Alex's hypothesis about alien abduction!😊

Thanks for putting this on Cameron! I am a Christian and I agree with Alex that questions are arguments. The fact that they are identical is irrelevant to the point of the conversation. With that I think you still did a good job. It’s really challenging to convey your thoughts on the spot and defend them. Please continue to bring Alex on the channel.

@amullac9207

6 ай бұрын

A short cut to an icon on a computer is not the computers icon it serves as a representative of an icon. You can delete the representation an the program would still function. The icon itself is a representative to the source code and function that the coding represents. One cannot escape the need for language to communicate the most fundamental functional requirements necessary to form an argument as a vehicle for communication. Number for example would still function logically but are only used mean fully when communicating them. I have just wrote this all out as a representative to meaning. There is an implied argument behind my words.

U didn't lose me! Continue the conversation! Continue!!! 😊

"Reasoning is reasonable" wow, that's such a deep insight Cameron 50:30

I think the ending just comes down to employing a principle of charity. Cam could steel man the question to the form of an argument and respond to that. This is especially applicable if you know youre interlocutor well and he/she argues in good faith. Also, "questions are not arguments" probably does more harm than good by encouraging people to take a defensive posture in discussions. Its a tool that easily allows you to dismiss what otherwise could have been an insightful and penetrating question (that would bring the conversation forward).

@noahwinslow3252

Жыл бұрын

It is possible as a human for Cam to steel man... but after watching his responses, I'm not sure Cam has it in has capability to understand criticisms of what's being said towards his slogan. Its like saying "Apples aren't pears" and the atheist is like... yeah, but we're talking about fruits in general.

@pasimajuri1209

Жыл бұрын

This is god >kzread.info/dash/bejne/dW11sdeelNm1nqw.html

@lightbeforethetunnel

Жыл бұрын

Unfortunately, people generally do not debate in good faith regarding deeply held beliefs like this. Atheists don't, yet they think they do. It's a subconscious thing because they're psychologically deceiving themselves into thinking they don't believe God exists when in reality everyone knows God exists. So there's a lot of subconscious self-deception going on with this topic, it's unlike other topics.

@noahwinslow3252

Жыл бұрын

@@lightbeforethetunnel in reality you know God is a made up lie that you deceive yourself into believing. See, I too can claim I know the inner workings of your mind!

@lightbeforethetunnel

Жыл бұрын

@@noahwinslow3252 The difference is: What I said accurately represents the Christian worldview, while what you're saying does NOT accurately represent any Atheist worldview. So, in other words you're just being deliberately dishonest just because you aren't debating in good faith just like my post says Atheists do.

Alex is, I think, my favourite Atheist apologist, because he understands God, belief in God and Chriatian theology and philosophy in a charitable way. He's not an enemy, he's a seeker.

@mil401

Жыл бұрын

Can it ever be possible that someone is neither an enemy or a seeker?

@fluffysheap

Жыл бұрын

@@mil401 of course, they could be an ally, or a bystander. But if you mean someone actively on the other side of an argument, then only if you want to argue the definition of "enemy." Which is a bit strong of a word, I'd say "opponent" or maybe "adversary".

@Jockito

Жыл бұрын

Matthew 12:30 He who is not with me, is against me, and he who does not gather with me, scatters

@NeutralMjolkHotel

Жыл бұрын

@@Jockito so if one seeks to be “with” god, but still finds no way to do so, is it god who picked that person out to be their enemy?

@Jockito

Жыл бұрын

@@NeutralMjolkHotel That would seem like a fair conclusion to draw to me in such a case

With regards to the final half hour, I think some concepts from pragmatics might come in helpful. If my guest tells me, they're hungry, that isn't formally a request. However, I should still realise that they want to eat and are asking me whether I could offer them something. If I reply "The fridge is in the kitchen", then that is not formally an offer that they can go to the kitchen and help themselves to what they find in the fridge, however they would most likely understand it as such. These kind of things are called implicatures, things that are communicated even though they are not explicitly expressed. In the same way, if I make an argument and someone asks a question in response, this question can implicate an argument that attacks the argument I just made. That's just efficient communication. Maybe saying that the question implicates the argument wouldn't rub Cameron the wrong way as much as saying that they are "representative" or "identical in function"? I'm actually a bit confused as to what the slogan is supposed to get at. Alex gave a few examples of questions used in a debate to convey an argument. Does Cameron have a problem with questions being used in that way? Unfortunately, he didn't give any examples of problematic ways that questions can be used. Is he talking about questions with incorrect premises? Or is he really just trying to make the trivial point that questions are not identical in form to arguments? They mentioned that the intent is for people to think critically. I am not sure if that is conveyed efficiently with that slogan.

Love the video. I thought I would just quickly jump in to give my perspective on that last debate around 'questions not being arguments'. I think that this comes down to an issue of defining terms. To use the suitcase analogy, it seems that Alex's definition of 'an argument' would be the equivalent of the physical object that is the suitcase. This is not dependent on language to exist, rather the word 'suitcase' or 'valise' are simply two valid formats in which to express the idea of the physical object. While the object in not dependent on language, the words are dependent on the object, without it, both 'suitcase' and 'valise' are just meaningless sounds, so in every practical sense, they are the same, even if expressed in different formats. Meanwhile it seems that Cam's definition of an 'argument' would be the word/format 'valise'. With this definition, even if both words represent the same object or idea, the one is not the other. When it comes to the practical use of discussing with someone of the opposing view point, I am convinced that Alex's definition is far more useful, as without the format independent idea behind the words, the words themselves are meaningless, whether they are in the form of an argument or a question. :)

The question argument disagreement seems to hing on literalism. The question seemed to become is a question and argument rather than can a question be used in a logical argument to engage with another person. I had a similar problem when I was teaching English as a second language. Importantly where I was teaching critical thinking had been stamped out of the curriculum and as one result of that, everyone was very literal. I taught the kids about cognates in French and English and said it made learning English much easier because so many words in French and English are the same or very similar. The kids wouldn’t have it. They said no pratique was NOT at all the same as practice and even when the words were nearly identically written they weren’t pronounced EXACTLY the same so they are not the same. While literally true that cognates are identical, they are functionally similar enough in the context of an English class. I feel like questions in a debate are similarly used. It’s used similarly to an argument so can stand in for one. I also think that adherence to logic in this way can be bad. I generally think questions in a discussion are the most effective form of communication. It shows you are paying attention and engaging and not just thinking of your next argument. Like if more understanding can come from asking questions then why would he limit their use? Then it just seems to be about winning and not about connection or understanding.

Cameron should know better about Questions not being Arguments, especially since he uses Bayes Theorem. The questions are observations to which you have to test your hypothesis and compare it to your competing hypothesis. If the observation is not expected to occur for your hypothesis, it will lower the probability of your hypothesis being the correct one. As with Alex's example, if someone said that the disciples of Jesus stole the body, and then I answered "so how come they were willing to suffer for this belief?", this question/observation is not expected under the hypothesis that the disciples stole the body and so lower the probability of this hypothesis being true. So yes, questions can be used to affect epistemic probabilities of competing hypotheses.

great civil conversation guys

It's amazing that so many people speak about epistemology without mentioning Karl Popper. His epistemology (as slightly improved upon by David Deutsch in The Beginning of Infinity) solves all those epistemological problems you spoke of. I really hope Alex has David Deutsch on his podcast!

I am a 75 year old atheist who examined religion but did not care for it. I prefer to live as an independent who enjoys watching what people say about their beliefs.

@adamc1694

Жыл бұрын

Antony Flew was a military atheist until 80's he finally woke up and realized that 'believing there is a God' and 'religion' are not necessary together the same thing. He wrote a book "There is a God" then and described how his hatred to religion particularly Christian clouded his mind.

@user-rq8xx8ir9t

Жыл бұрын

@@adamc1694 fair enough i could see myself believing in some sort of god but probably not the christian one

My issue with the slogan "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" is that we must start off by asking what is it that makes a claim extraordinary. For example, if I tell you that I am going to Japan this weekend and that I will see you in a week, that does not seem that extraordinary. Now, if this was 200 years ago and I said that then you would be right in thinking that I am out of my mind somehow. What this does is establish that what makes a claim extraordinary, rather than ordinary, is how it relates to things external to itself. Once you start going down this rabbit hole you come to realize that the only justification for saying a claim is extraordinary is by pointing to justification we have to find the truth of the claim to be unlikely. In essence, an extraordinary claim is a claim that already has evidence working against it (that evidence being used to determine the prior probability). And so "extraordinary evidence" must simply be evidence enough to overcome the already existing evidence against the claim. That seems well and good, but we are also justified in asking if the evidence against the claim is, itself, valid. Essentially, what are those reasons that make the claim unlikely and are those reasons actually justified? However, simply calling a claim an "extraordinary" one causes those very reasons to be often overlooked, but those reasons could very well be crucial in the pursuit of establishing the truth of a so-called extraordinary claim. So, while it might be a somewhat accurate slogan, I find that it is not particularly useful, as there is no guarantee that what one considers in their head as a contributing factor to the prior probability is considered by others as well, and thus the priors are also subject to debate and discussion.

@mil401

Жыл бұрын

That’s how I think about Sagan’s slogan as well. It works well rhetorically because the person using it might inadvertently smuggle in a low credence for the idea under question. But often in conversations with deep disagreement - such as with politics or the God question - even the prior probabilities of various things form a part of what’s being disputed. In such cases, whether or not something is extraordinary also stands in need of justification.

@anthonypalo8191

Жыл бұрын

'Extraodinary claim requires extraordinary evidence' if this logic is true, does an extraordinary crime require extraordinary evidence? No it just needs evidence. An evidence is neither extraordinary nor ordinary.. it just is, its evidence. The slogan is not law nor theory, its just a snappy catchphrase.

@mil401

Жыл бұрын

@@anthonypalo8191 There is _some_ kernel of truth to the slogan though. If someone thinks a proposition has a high prior probability they’ll need more and/or better evidence to be convinced of it than they would if they believe it has a low prior probability. The problem with Sagan’s slogan is that it can be used to implicitly assume that both people in a conversation share the belief that something has a low prior probability; but calling a proposition extraordinary (i.e. saying it has low prior probability) is itself a claim, one that two people can very well disagree on, especially when it comes to things like philosophy or politics.

@mil401

Жыл бұрын

@@creatinechris But that’s just the thing, not everyone has the same experiences and/or agrees on what are the things people experience. If two people are disagreeing about whether say, a God exists who interacts with people, neither person gets to require that the other start with their (the first person’s) prior probability that “there’s a God who interact with people” is high or low: _because that’s one of the things under disagreement!_ Sagan’s slogan can sometimes be used to smuggle in a low prior probability in the thing under question, but in some instances - especially when it comes to politics, philosophy etc. - the likelihood of the thing itself is also being contested alongside whether it is true.

@mil401

Жыл бұрын

@@creatinechris The best way to lower biases is just to talk and engage charitably with people one disagrees with, and to do so a lot. Doing so helps us understand _why_ others have the the credences they do, and can give us pause. Anecdotally, I’ve found that the more people have friends and/or interact with others who disagree with them philosophically, politically etc. the more likely they are to hold their beliefs tentatively and be open to belief revision. Is the whether or not something is an extraordinary claim discoverable though? Some propositions have intrinsic (objective) probabilities than can be discovered (philosophers of science call these a proposition’s “propensity”). For example, the proposition “a fair coin will land on one side” has a propensity of 0.5. Some propositions though don’t have propensities that are discoverable, and some may not have a propensity at all. In such cases, all we have are our subjective assessments of prior probability (often called “credences”), which stem from our existing web of beliefs. If we think something is likely (we have a high credence), the amount of evidence we need to be convinced is less than if we have a lower credence. Does “God exists” have a propensity or not? I honestly don’t know. I’m still thinking about it. What I do know is that people can disagree about propensities, and in such instances we ought to at least make a case for why we assign something the propensity and/or credence we do. Using Sagan’s standard to assume something has a low propensity without making a positive case for why it does might be rhetorically effective, but it’s not very charitable.

Yooooo Alex gave you so much amazing content and a top notch philosophy lesson. LOL and you got a lesson about what the word represent means 😂😂😂

Good conversation

Just had a quick thought that would count against the Kalam argument and I‘m interested in hearing your responses. Let‘s say we accept that the universe had a cause. Craig then proceeds to argue that cause must have caused all of space, time and matter and must therefore be immaterial, space- and timeless. The only plausible answer he says is that a conscious being must be the cause. But. Next to space, time and matter, consciousness is also a part of the universe and reality. Conscious creatures exist, consciousness is a part of the universe and therefore we could conclude that the cause of the universe cannot be conscious. Otherwise there is no reason why the cause could not also be in time, space and consist of matter. If the cause brings into existence everything that exists, which includes consciousness, then consciousness cannot be part of the cause, because then it wouldn’t be creatio ex nihilo. Any thoughts on this?

@milofettpants8229

Жыл бұрын

It seems sound. Not to just discredit something without reason, but the fact that I’ve never heard it before makes me feel skeptical. However, at least at first, this seems like a very compelling objection that defeats the argument.

@profpurge

Жыл бұрын

The other issue is the whole "timeless and spaceless" bit, which is nothing more than a handwave. Even if we accept the idea of a consciousness untethered to any matter/energy (the latter of which also exists in space, remember), how does ANYTHING occur without time? How do thoughts occur without the element of time? How can an act of creation take place, without TIME? When confronted with this, Craig does his inevitable slip and slide-"well, the creation of time AND the act of creating time were simultaneous"-oh, so THAT cause didn't have to precede THAT effect, eh? Then why couldn't a natural explanation suffice as well, since clearly time DIDN"T need to already exist for creation to begin.

@interloc1290

Жыл бұрын

Okay a couple of things to my eye as a none expert: 1. Your argument is valid as you have presented it based on Craigs own claims. 2. Your arguments soundness are where I suspect objections will be raised: 2A: Craigs premises seem to have always been potentially unsound. So any arguments that features them would suffer from the same unsoundness. He has never had proof -that I have seen in the probably 15+ hours of listening to him- to support his claim that everything that begins to exist has a cause. Alex actually did a video that touched upon this topic a while back regarding causes and infinite potentials etc. Also when trying to determine IF the universe even HAS a cause (that he calls god) stating that "EVERYTHING THAT EXISTS(another way to describe the universe) has a cause" always seemed circular to me or begging the question. 2B. CONSCIOUSNESS even existing is unfortunately not a closed case. Like even trying to define consciousness just to start the discussion on whether or not it exists seems to have confounded people much more informed and invested then me, atleast when I listen to them discuss it at length. But if we accept those 2 premises then I think the argument is convincing. Because if consciousness (GOD) existed before consciousness (US living creatures) then it undercuts or defeats his own syllogism that GOD MUST be timeless and immaterial etc. 3. LASTLY I suspect there will simply be special pleading used against such an argument. Obviously it is fallacious and BAD but opponents will almost certainly say GOD(consciousness) is a SPECIAL case. Like GOD exists outside of time and so can create time WITHIN .....not time? GOD exists outside of MATTER and so must create matter out of .....NOT matter? BUT because we theist (CHRISTIANS most likely) and our religious suppositions only MAKE SENSE if GOD is already conscious then the idea that an UNCONCIOUS GOD could create consciousness out of.....NOT consciousness will NOT work and so will be discarded as absurd without justification. At least I imagine that is how the arguments are likely to go.

@Onthewayover

Жыл бұрын

If I'm getting your argument right, it's saying: P1: Every attribute we observe is an effect of the prime cause. P2: The prime cause cannot possess any attributes it causes. C: The prime cause cannot possess any attributes we see. I have concerns with Premise 1, but Premise 2 certainly doesn't work. It's not just possible for the prime cause to possess attributes we observe, it's necessary. For example, the attribute "able to cause effects." The prime cause certainly doesn't have to possess all those attributes, but to say an untimed prime cause must also be unconscious, because both are caused, is incorrect.

@profpurge

Жыл бұрын

@North Korea Is Second Best Korea "Creation" infers time, as it requires time even to form intent to create. Even WLC admits this, and so does special pleading-either creation took place simultaneously with the "first instant" (so no causality) or the Christian God doesn't require time to think/act/create. But the first resolves any need for a creator and the second is naked special pleading.

As a language learner I am acutely aware that mentalese is a thing. When you first set out to learn your target language you have no choice but to translate from your native language into your target language. But as you progress and get better you become more and more aware that you are translating directly from mentalese directly into your target language. Translating from English into Japanese is a much clunkier, slower and more difficult process than going straight from mentalese into Japanese. If mentalese wasn't a thing, even the very best bilingual people would be significantly slower when they talk. And if that didn't convince you consider this: If mentalese doesn't exists, then how would it be possible to accidently say something you didn't quite mean to say if there wasn't a thing you had meant to say? And yes I did the very thing they were arguing about. kzread.info/dash/bejne/o35kzJOFlbvffrA.html

If one of Cameron’s arguments can have an unstated assumption/premises then a question can be an argument with unstated but understood premises.

About the latest discussion (about questions not being arguments) I think that as Alex said questions can represent the same thing as an argument, therefore they can be arguments. But it sounds like he objects to it being a slogan, and I'll have to disagree with him about that. Questions are being used as a way to skip logic and just imply a statement in a non logical form a lot. So having a slogan that helps you succinctly represent that idea is useful. Even though it might be used badly in some scenarios, as all slogans do. Just hearing Alex's points actually caused me to think about buying this t-shirt 😂 It was a great discussion, thanks a lot for that. And not everyone lost you at this last argument, even though it began repeating itself.

I feel like you two were so close on the relationship between questions and arguments. I would argue that questions can imply arguments. When the implied premises are obvious, and when we agree on them, then Alex's position is accurate. But when the implied premises are either unclear or not agreed upon, the representation that Alex is asserting breaks down. To build on Alex's comparison, if the character of the President and the Vice-President are substantially different, then it becomes very important to parse out in which sense exactly they do and do not represent the United States. When Hemant presented those questions, I take it that Cameron was objecting to hidden premises that he thought were rhetorically unfair. The classic example is the question, "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?" The implied assumptions are that the person being addressed both has a wife and has committed domestic violence. Especially if one of both premises are false, it becomes obvious how questions are not arguments. This i accept Alex's assertion that questions represent arguments, provided that the implied premises are both obvious and agreed upon. When they are not, as in the case of Hemant's video, it is not unfair to ask him to spell out exactly what arguments his questions are meant to refer to.

@ParadoxProblems

Жыл бұрын

Most, if not all, of the questions Alex proposed were questions requesting Clarification, which I see as different from questions requesting information that the questioner has no way of getting at themselves. "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?" Is not a question that implies a contradiction in any proposed argument. It does imply the evidential premises "you have a wife" "you beat her in the past" "you might still be doing so now." The question "Why did the apostles suffer?" requests clarification between an understood claim (that the apostles were lying) and the asker's idea (if they have no reason to suffer, what could have caused them to lie).

@victorjvanderwoude3102

Жыл бұрын

I appreciate your language and writing skills, and reasoning. I agree with your position on questions and arguments (balanced). It was a pleasure to read your reply. Your paragraphs are beautifully written. Thanks

@ryanthomasjones

Жыл бұрын

@@victorjvanderwoude3102 I think this is the most affirming KZread comment I've ever gotten. Thank you so much for your kind words!

I almost classify "Questions are not arguments" as a form of Ad hominem :D I think someone would actually say this as a cope out. When I ask questions, I'm usually trying to help someone to use logic by guiding them through a thought process.. Now if the person asks why I'm asking the question, I can then take them through what I'm getting at and the possible conclusions that can be drawn from each answer and hence drive the point from there but if instead they answer the question honestly, they might end up discovering the holes in their own logic by themselves, which I think is more potent. A weak example of this could be me asking whether a person expects to find polar bears in the middle East. Using their own brain they would possibly say no. Then I'd ask them whether they think Noah went to the north pole to fetch them and how he went there and how he captured and kept them from freezing and from eating other animals collected in Noah's around the world in 80 days trip. all these questions would be part of a "reductio ad absurdum" case being built against Noah Ark Story and Young Earth creationism. Of cause a person could just magic away all my concerns if they wanted. My point is dig deeper rather than just saying "questions are not arguments". it doesn't sound like a progressive stance.

@Imjustsayin99

Жыл бұрын

My question would be, did Adam name all bear kinds or just ‘bear’? Given a few thousand years after Noah’s flood we see how quickly species can adapt. We see evidence even today, and it doesn’t take an absurd ‘millions of years’ fairytale made up by Lyell and Darwin because of their disdain for biblical records in their day.

@Theomatikalli

Жыл бұрын

@@Imjustsayin99 Like I said, this was a weak example. Most fossil research shows that polar bears were already present 70000 years ago.. but my guess is that you are saying that, he didn't bother bring polar bears on the trip because he could just get them from brown bears or something like that. Most scientists regardless of religion, agree that a thousand years is not enough. even very minor changes can take a 100k years to develop. but even if I grant you your hyper evolution theory, there is still a lot of points to defend.. Where do dinosaurs feet in your ark story? What about parasites that can only live in a host and kill their host? how did that work? What about catering/food for the animals? how were animals kept from eating each other not to mention the volume of feces that would need to be.disposed of. I might not do this rebuttal justice so take a listen to this and let me know what you think. kzread.info/dash/bejne/nJN23LmOpb20Zdo.html or kzread.info/dash/bejne/e2Zml7ico5a-YMo.html

@amullac9207

6 ай бұрын

A short cut to an icon on a computer is not the computers icon it serves as a representative of an icon. You can delete the representation an the program would still function. The icon itself is a representative to the source code and function that the coding represents. One cannot escape the need for language to communicate the most fundamental functional requirements necessary to form an argument as a vehicle for communication. Number for example would still function logically but are only used mean fully when communicating them. I have just wrote this all out as a representative to meaning. There is an implied argument behind my words.

@Theomatikalli

6 ай бұрын

@@amullac9207 how are you. Sorry, I've successfully missed your point.. Would you mind explicitly pointing it out so I can give you a meaningful response that addresses your exact point?

@amullac9207

4 ай бұрын

I am more or less agreeing with you. There is an implied meaning in a question that is “symbolic” of/to an argument.

the Delahunty evidence issue is interesting, as it seems to come up now and then. I think people often confuse the term 'evidence' with 'evidence of' or 'proof of'

@user-rq8xx8ir9t

Жыл бұрын

true even the weakest evidence is still evidence of some sort

I think one sense that questions might not be arguments is when they contain a false or controversial premise. Someone might ask, “how can a fictional book count as evidence for your beliefs?”, or “how can nothing create everything?” But the other person might not agree with the premise of the question. In a sense, they then have to mentally break apart the question and bring out the premise they disagree with. So the effect is that it can hinder or trip up the discussion, and obscure efforts to find the truth.

@user-rq8xx8ir9t

11 ай бұрын

true theyre loaded questions in that case although in the second case of"how can nothing create everything?" tneyre more so assuming a belief the other person holds while the first example is assuming something about reality itself so i guess technically only the first one is loaded but yeah theyre both presumptuous

I think questions are not arguements because they do not lead to a conclusion. A questions can be very deep and pressing but it does not end with "therefore x"

@WhatsTheTakeaway

Жыл бұрын

Yes, I think it is very apparent that questions requesting more information is NOT the same as presenting an argument. If someone asks a "rhetorical" question, and their interlocutor doesn't understand the rhetoric, an argument is going to be needed. It seems to me to be quite obvious that questions are not to replace arguments. Arguments set the dialectic, and questions ostensibly carry forward the dialectic.

Dostoevsky's "I'd reject the facts in favor of Christ" comment is a common thread with most Christians. Some of whom when shown a Bible contradiction or fallacy STILL say "I don't care, I still believe it's the inerrant Word of God."

@mashah1085

Жыл бұрын

@@jokinghazard4022 One contradiction or error in the Bible and Christianity falls apart...because it means other passages, specifically the Gospels, can be questioned.

@mashah1085

Жыл бұрын

@@jokinghazard4022 "Substantial" contradictions are completely subjective. How about a contradiction in the Gospels concerning the Resurrection...would that count as a substantial contradiction?

@mashah1085

Жыл бұрын

@@jokinghazard4022 Sure...according to Luke, John, and Mark...how many people were resurrected? Now, how many were resurrected according to Matthew?

@mashah1085

Жыл бұрын

@@jokinghazard4022 So Mark, Luke, and John just "ignored" hundreds of other resurrections?

@mashah1085

Жыл бұрын

@@jokinghazard4022 Hundreds of people ALSO engage in the miracle that would be a resurrection from the dead....and Mark, Luke, and John "chose not to include it"??? And you can't even say "Well, Matthew got that part wrong, it didn't happen"...or the other three Gospels become dubious, right?

Would be coold to get this type of content in podcast form

Drawing on my philosophy degree: Alex was definitely correct about questions and arguments. Technically, questions are not identical to arguments. However, they are not identical to arguments in the sense that every sentence are not identical to arguments, because sentences are not identical to propositions. Sentences are collections of words, whereas propositions are the abstract meanings REPRESENTATED by those words. “The snow is white” and “la nieve es blanca” are sentences, though they represent the same proposition. We can use language to explicitly represent arguments like “If X then Y, X, therefore Y” (though even then, these are explicitly representations of arguments - strings of words that have meaning, but the string of words themselves are not the same as the meaning underlying them). Alternatively, we can represent arguments implicitly. For example, saying “but Paul wouldn’t face death if he was lying” implicitly represents the argument “If Paul was lying he would preserve himself, Paul did not preserve himself, Paul was not lying.” If someone responded “ah! That statement was not an argument - it was a mere conditional statement” we would rightly accuse them of not properly engaging with their interlocutor’s point. The VAST majority of the time, we represents arguments implicitly. Asking a question in certain contexts seems no different. For example, “but why would Paul lie if he knew he would suffer” is a string of words whose IMPLICIT MEANING is the collection of propositions “if Paul lied then he would have preserved himself, Paul did not preserve himself, Paul was not lying.” Sure, questions are not identical to arguments - no sentence is. However, their IMPLICIT MEANING can be the exact same as an explicit sentence written in syllogistic form. As the vast majority of arguments aren’t explicitly written in standard form, if you dismiss someone’s point as “not being an argument,” you’d have to dismiss a vast multitude of over implicitly expressed arguments (I.e. most attempts to write or verbally communicate arguments).

I really wish Alex would do another discussion with Matt Dillahunty and bring these levels of nuance to his consideration.

As a christian I really appreciated Alex's comments on #3 especially. His understanding of Christian theology on nominalism, salvation and hell shows his understanding of biblical christian theology far out-classes that of the average christian. I appreciate this level of dialogue.

@youtubespag

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, dudes literally got a degree in it

@marksandsmith6778

Жыл бұрын

@@youtubespag like a degree in Star Wars

@youtubespag

Жыл бұрын

@@marksandsmith6778 essentially

@nationalhamleague5352

Жыл бұрын

@@marksandsmith6778 hey stop insulting my degree. I spent years on arguing why it's not only Siths that deal in absolutes. I did my time and it's a valid topic of study >:[

@marksandsmith6778

Жыл бұрын

@@nationalhamleague5352 these are not the theists you're looking for. Move on

What would some common Christian slogans be? - ‘I didn’t come from no monkey!’ - ‘Look at the tree!’ - ‘You just want to sin.’ - ‘Everyone knows God exists.’ - ‘Mysterious ways™.’ - ‘Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.’ - ‘John 3:16.’ - ‘It’s a sign we’re in the end times.’ - ‘You’re taking it out of context.’ - ‘It’s not a religion, it’s a relationship.’ - ‘Love the sinner, hate the sin’ (provided they’re Christian, straight, and male).

Alex O Connor is a very knowledgeable man. As a Christian I respect his knowledge and pursuit of more knowledge. I hope one day he encounters the love and power of Christ.

So, according to Cam "claims are not evidence" is laughably faulty, but "questions are not arguments" warrants a long discussion to defend how true it is... sometimes? 🤨

@carlthewellendowed

Жыл бұрын

The most frustrating thing to me about Cam bringing up "claims are not evidence," is that he clearly still completely misses the point Dillahunty was making, even though Matt has explained it on more than one occasion. It feels like Cam is purposely not understanding at this point.

A god that wants a personal relationship with everyone in the world relays on Europeans to spread his message in the Americas. And with his message comes illness and war and brutality. And it was necessary that these Europeans were able to build ships big enough in oder to become missionaries, 1500 years after Jesus was born. That's strange for a perfect being that could easily communicate with anyone anytime anywhere who looks for a personal relationship.

So didn't lose an audience...it might have sounded like there was hair splitting going on at the end but it was very illuminating...thank you for this very civil discourse...

These guys are brilliant at communicating what are often complex arguments. An excellent discussion. Thoroughly enjoyed it.

@pasimajuri1209

Жыл бұрын

This is god >kzread.info/dash/bejne/dW11sdeelNm1nqw.html

Great video ! Around 19', when Alex point that there appear to be a connection between being saved and geography, the big problem is the theology of salvation. He has a very restrictive view of salvation which is necessary for his argument to work. But that is only one possible approach. The catholic tradition, for instance, teaches that someone who does not believe in Christ through no fault of his own but live his life according to his conscience can be saved, and hence is purely and simply is not touched by Alex's argument.

@phoult37

Жыл бұрын

Funny how Catholic theology always holds up best against an atheist's criticism... 💪

@jadondavid8272

9 ай бұрын

He does address something similar slightly later on

Cameron, I think your confusion over Alex's arguments RE representation shows a gap in your knowledge in regards to linguistics. Of course, this is a completely a/theist neutral field but it's a very useful field to know something about since thought (including reasoning) is mostly expressed linguistically and is extremely relevant to any field that makes heavy use of language, as of course both philosophy and apologetics do. Alex is basically arguing that questions, despite being different from syllogisms, can still represent the same kinds of thoughts that syllogisms do. To me, the argument against this isn't that they can't represent the same things (they can), the argument against it is that each will have different effects in the mind of a listener. So even if they can represent the same thing in the mind of the person asking the question/stating the syllogism, they might have radically different effects in the minds of someone hearing each one.

@jonathanhenderson9422

Жыл бұрын

@@macmac1022 As to your questions, I think your third question ("Or more like a person...") gets closest to what I had in mind. Basically, this questions Vs arguments thing is really a matter of rhetoric, which used to be a much more popular area of study than it is now. Rhetoric is all about the effective use of language. Now we tend to only think of rhetoric with negative connotations: as language rehearsed in order to convince someone of potentially specious points; but rhetoric is really about the effective use of language, period. As to whether questions or arguments are more effective, I very much think it would depend on the subject and the listener. It could very well be that a question could be more effective to one person while an argument could be more effective for another. Take me: I have a mild form of ASD, so any language that relies on connotations and intuitive "fill-in-the-gaps" elision is less effective for me than a clear argument; but I'm atypical and I can imagine for others a question might provoke more contemplation in an attempt to answer it than an argument might provoke that same contemplation (and comprehension) in an effort to rebut/refute it. Either way, I think it's a pretty non-controversial point that the kind of representative form something takes (a question, an argument, something else) will indeed have different effects in different listeners.

@agusmolfino

Жыл бұрын

This is an interesting point. Can you think of an example where a claim stated as a question changes the average acceptance of that claim? (vs. when it is stated as a syllogism)

@jonathanhenderson9422

Жыл бұрын

@@macmac1022 I don't think we're disagreeing about anything anymore. If you reread my OP you'll note I already agreed with you that both questions and arguments can refer to the same thing (as Alex said). My contention was that if Cam wanted to dispute that the better course would've been to argue that they won't have the same effect in the minds of listeners. Personally, I wouldn't say that in all cases a question wouldn't do just as good as an argument, but I'm not good at picking up on tone and connotations: people with ASD tend to be very literal-minded. Even when it comes to poetry (a subject I've studied) the hardest part for me was always analyzing tone.

@jonathanhenderson9422

Жыл бұрын

@@agusmolfino As I said to Mac Mac I don't think one can make universal claims about either. Whether a question or syllogistic argument would be more effective would depend on the subject being discussed, the listener, and exactly how the question was phrased. There's too many variables. I do think in casual conversation questions can usually serve just as well as full syllogistic arguments, but they are more prone to leading to confusion because the explicit elements of the syllogism are left out.

Alex you should read the Critique of Pure Reason in regards to question 6

The role the question plays in the conversation is the same as giving a syllogistic argument or a conditional

I (Christian) would say that Cosmic Skeptic is looking for the words "testimony". The claim is not a testimony (which is evidence), because anyone can make this claim, without it being a testimony. But the fact that the daughter is testifying that "she got hit" is both a claim and a testimony, and it is the testimony part that is the evidence, not the claim.

@Volmire1

Жыл бұрын

@@dannyslag Testimonial evidence is probably the worst form of evidence, because it is anecdotal. Unless we have reason to believe you, why would we believe such an outlandish claim about yourself, unless you said you were going to rise from the dead and then did it or something.

The first one would be better as no good/strong evidence, which is probably what I meant by no evidence.

@noahwinslow3252

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, I've never heard anyone say it as Cameron phrased it. Was there charitability when choosing these slogans or just the most inflamatory versions?

Good on CC for putting this up but at the same time it reminds me why I don't watch his channel anymore.

I'm not sure I completely agree with either of you on the "questions aren't arguments" point. Yes, questions aren't arguments; why-questions, for example, are (arguably) a triple containing a proposition p, a set of propositions x representing a set of possibilities including p, and a relation r of explanatory relevance while an argument is (arguably) a set of propositions representing premises, a set of logical rules, and a conclusion meant to follow from the premises using the logical rules. However, both can be used in the context of an interaction of worldviews to prompt a response from the other person to test the adequacy of the other person's worldview. Both can be presented in a way that stands in need of disambiguation and both can be presented cynically, but as long as the people in the interaction are acting in good faith, it doesn't seem that there's any good reason to give one form of engagement primacy over the other. The concern I have with the slogan, then, is that to a certain degree, it unduly delegitimizes questions as a form of intellectual engagement. While I value the precision it's meant to ask for, it often does more to distract from the conversation at hand than it does to raise a salient point.