What I found pretty cool in this interview was that after nearly 50 yrs. of studying this, Dr. Pagels was excited and animated when discussing things...

@myhatmygandhi6217

10 күн бұрын

It would be difficult to study something that long if you weren't interested in it 😂

@javiermerino7579

10 күн бұрын

@@myhatmygandhi6217 What about the man who wasted his life studying ant-eaters? :)

@michaelfetter5413

10 күн бұрын

If she were honest, she would acknowledge the historicity of these documents is nothing near the canon. Not even close.

@karekarenohay4432

10 күн бұрын

@@michaelfetter5413 What do you mean with "historicity"? They are historical documents, that show Christianism was not a monolithic faith in the first two centuries after Christ. Do you think Matthew 27:52, with the dead coming out from their graves just after the crucifixion and visiting Jerusalem, is more "historic" than Gospel of Thomas?

@michaelfetter5413

10 күн бұрын

@@karekarenohay4432 Number and consistency of manuscripts also factoring in time from the events. The gnostic "gospels" are literally fanfic of cultists from hundreds of years later than the canon with a tiny number of manuscripts.

The thumbnail got me hyped for a split second, did Alex get an interview with THE Jesus Christ? lol

@butter_nut1817

11 күн бұрын

Doubt it would be his first stop after coming to earth again but you never know

@Henok-qn6nc

11 күн бұрын

Lmao

@eprd313

11 күн бұрын

​​@@butter_nut1817 he'd most probably be murdered by Evangelicals in the US as soon as he said that they are the new pharisees, but we know no one's coming back from the dead after 2000 years of a failed promise.

@SamoaVsEverybody814

11 күн бұрын

The state of Christianity: 💩 Jesus: This. 🤬

@patrickdeoliveira6434

10 күн бұрын

​@@butter_nut1817You're right, Lex would get him first

I wonder how these older people feel about being approached by Alex who is so much younger to talk about their work. They must be so so happy to share their thoughts and feelings in a way they wouldn’t usually.

@Jacob-py9mx

10 күн бұрын

Older people love when younger people pick up their work

@James-ll3jb

7 күн бұрын

😂

@TheClosestThingToTimeTravel

6 күн бұрын

@kenkaplan3654

4 күн бұрын

She has talked with Dereck Lambert of Mythvision quite a bit and teaches young students. They're used to it.

@Koko161081

4 күн бұрын

She’s a professor of history - she probably has dozens of such discussions in her classes and office with students on a weekly basis.

Having earned my degree in Religious Studies from UNC under Bart Ehrman, among others, it's very odd to hear a scholar dodge questions and say, "I'd prefer not to comment on that," and, "I dont like that [source] very much" every time anything contrary to her poisition is raised. Great interview Alex.

@joshualavender

10 күн бұрын

I found that odd, too. She admits to "playing favorites." It's as if she's formed up her own orthodoxy for early Christianity, based on both the Gnostic Gospels and the New Testament. There are places in this video where she doesn't appear to be speaking as a scholar but as a believer, and I wonder whether for her there's any daylight between the two. Strange to see in a foundational interview meant to give us an "overview."

@newtonswig

10 күн бұрын

She is against the sensationalisation of the Gnostic gospels. Her position is explicitly against some sources, and has to entail some ignoring of the most obviously wacky of the Dead Sea scrolls.

@pietervoogt

10 күн бұрын

I don't mind her moving between believe and scholarship. It adds some personal flavor.

@Zachary_Setzer

10 күн бұрын

@@newtonswig Wanting to avoid sensationalizing them is one thing. Denying they contain certain ideas and then hand-waving away evidence to the contrary is something else. Seems like anything she doesn't like isn't "real" gnosticism. It has kind of a "that's not real socialism" feel to it.

@Zachary_Setzer

10 күн бұрын

@@pietervoogt Nothing wrong with it until it becomes unclear which hat you're wearing.

Can you have Jesus on your podcast next time ? I think it would answer a lot of questions

@alanbregovic8889

8 күн бұрын

dude has a sword mayb he got arrested

@alexdenton6586

8 күн бұрын

@@alanbregovic8889 I do not understand why he is not responding. It is a perfectly valid request.

@lifethroughromans8295

7 күн бұрын

​@alexdenton6586 - Jesus is responding. He is on the KZread channel called "Tom Loud".

@DilutedH2SO4

6 күн бұрын

dw lad, i've got him on speed dial. i'll see if he's not too busy with world hunger and all that x

@zsqu

5 күн бұрын

it seems pretty intellectually dishonest to criticise his works and teachings without debating or even offering to talk with him.

"I'll speak on him in a moment" is a gangster ass way of saying "I cant remember the name right now but I will in a minute." Gotta respect that scholarly confidence.

@exoplanet11

9 күн бұрын

Yes, and I"m sure she is kicking herself for forgetting the name of that other scholar. But it is truly remarkable the command of the material this 81 year old scholar has. I'm grateful for her compassion in being willing to share it with us.

@cwellik805

8 күн бұрын

I only hope to have the faculties Dr Pagels has in her 80’s. I’m 77 and can relate to very familiar names I suddenly can’t remember at the moment.

@philm7758

17 сағат бұрын

@@cwellik805 I'm 35 and have the same problem (and same hope) 😅

Imagine a teacher saying: "I'm going to explicitly try and teach a group of students so they don't understand, then select a smaller group to teach them properly" That is different from: "They aren't at the level that would be able to understand, so I have to dumb it down for them to get the basics. You're more advanced so I can go more in depth"

@RanEncounter

11 күн бұрын

I get what you are saying and mostly agree, but there is a kernel of truth to the original claim. You cannot teach calculus to the average first grader. You have to start at the basics. And yes you as a teachers have to adapt your teachings to the level of the students even if they are a group. Again I am not saying you are wrong, but there is a kernel of truth in what she is saying. I think she is using this fact as a defense.

@bobbabai

11 күн бұрын

Artificially crafted mystery and conspiracy. People love that shit.

@Fernando-ek8jp

11 күн бұрын

@@RanEncounter Again, that's different. The claim is that Jesus spoke in ways meant to be misunderstood. Sure, I wouldn't teach calculus to a first grader, I would teach them first grade math that they would understand. The equivalent would be for me to give text math problems to a group of first graders, and then I took aside a handful of them so I could explain how to solve the problems. The "secret" teachings, in the gospels at least, were: Here's a parable that will leave most of the listeners confused (but don't worry, that's on purpose) , but I'll explain it to a few of you.

@Tom_Fuckery

11 күн бұрын

@@RanEncounter Or listen to the kid for once when they can say they can see and understand something and not swat away their funny way of describing the answer 4 units ahead of the lesson

@RanEncounter

11 күн бұрын

@@Fernando-ek8jp Look you seem to have taken this totally different than what I actually wrote. You seem to be too eager to have a debate. "Again, that's different." Yes that is why I said that there was a kernel of truth in what she said. "The claim is that Jesus spoke in ways meant to be misunderstood." Yes this is the ideas of a person who has for years had to bend their mind to religion to make it make sense. I was just pointing out where this kind of thinking originates and how she does not see it as a problem any more. "The equivalent would be for me to give text math problems to a group of first graders, and then I took aside a handful of them so I could explain how to solve the problems." I literally agreed! Is really a kernel of truth so hard to understand? Do you not understand what I said at all? "The "secret" teachings, in the gospels at least, were: Here's a parable that will leave most of the listeners confused (but don't worry, that's on purpose) , but I'll explain it to a few of you." Yes. I literally agree. Sigh. Do you not understand that how she has in her mind changed the kernel of truth as I said it to what is in the gospels because of her beliefs?

She comes across as a believer who gets out of her comfort zone when demiurg and weird named realms come up.

@swolejeezy2603

10 күн бұрын

I’d get out of my comfort zone too if I was a believer, but it just seems weird to hear from such a credentialed professional

@Neognostic-pk5wu

10 күн бұрын

​@@swolejeezy2603well, agnostic or otherwise, the idea of the demiurg at least provides a better explanation for the Paradox of Empiricus than anything i've heard from a more traditional Christian apologist.

Great interview, very interesting topic and speaker. (P.S: commentors be grateful for the podcast guest) I notice some people complain about her not wishing to speak on certain topics. Bear in mind, her enthusiasm for the topic might not stem from the same place as yours, and that different angle for her curiosity is likely to be why she's dived so deep into these texts.

She claims the gnostics are misappropriated as believing in a demiurge yet when challenged on that multiple times she dances around and says “I’d rather not comment on that”. Wtf.

@AudunWangen

10 күн бұрын

Obviously biased, and she basically admits to that. It's not really what I'm looking for. I'd rather hear from scholars that at least attempt to be objective.

@Si_Mondo

10 күн бұрын

@@AudunWangen You won't get that from a Gnostic. Like trying to get truth out of a Freemason....

@wagnavian

10 күн бұрын

elaine pagels is a modern gnostic, same heresy that irenaeus and the other church fathers debunked a thousand years ago already

@Actuary1776

10 күн бұрын

@@AudunWangen It’s disappointing for sure, she’s supposedly an icon in her field.

@AudunWangen

10 күн бұрын

@@Actuary1776 She may have good reasons for ignoring certain parts and acknowledging others, but she's not doing herself any favors not to mention them. I don't know her or her work, but it seemed to me she was more interested in preaching than teaching. Not my cup of tea.

Man, Alex's face ,he looks kinda pissed, lol around 36 minutes after obviously being super enthusiastic and curious to speak about admittedly one of the most interesting texts, the Gospel of Judas, and the interviewee just does a cobra and goes back to the others. I totally felt that. I may be projecting but his usual "I'm listening face" doesn't not have such a frown. 😜

@smillstill

9 күн бұрын

He does the same thing when she flat out refuses to talk about the Sethian dark demiurge.

@TheRealShrike

9 күн бұрын

Yeah, what was that all about? Such a strange refusal from her in an otherwise interesting interview. It. came across as really bizarre.

@smillstill

9 күн бұрын

@@TheRealShrike I think these iconic academic people are used to being able to give a presentation on what they want and not be told what to talk about. They just tour with a topical presentation and do the same one for a year or two. She's like 80, so maybe she doesn't remember anything else...

@mangleman25

7 күн бұрын

It's disappointing as hell as a listener too because the Gospel of Judas is the most interesting one of these texts. She just completely sidestepped talking about it for "muh spirituality", which is pretty irritating to hear coming from a scholar.

@James-ll3jb

7 күн бұрын

He smells witchy b.s.

Alex wants to explore the breadth of Gnosticism. Pagels wants to talk obout the Gospel of Thomas.

@matthewkopp2391

9 күн бұрын

There are many other experts. Pagels was at one short period a fundamentalist who did not like many literalist doctrines, especially the „going to hell“ ideas which are not even Biblical. But texts like the Gospel of Thomas confirmed her spiritual sense of Christianity and a path to practice Christianity in a non-literal way. So there is a little bias but still a great scholar and I appreciate both her spiritual sense and her scholarship. A lot of what she writes is basically an apologetic defense for non-literalist interpretations and that there is very old tradition of it. There are other scholars such as mythicists who focus on other Gnostic texts to continue their critique of Christianity, who do go into the texts and interpretations that Pagels finds shallow. No doubt IMO the Marcionist literalists, probably inspired later literalist groups like the Bogomils and Cathars. I find their persecution by the Catholics horrendous but I would no more want to defend their interpretations than I would want to defend literalist Catholics or Protestants. For example. I read Pagels not just for good scholarship but because I too, appreciate that she opens up Christian spirituality.

@bargledargle7941

9 күн бұрын

@@matthewkopp2391 Look what you say is interesting, I am not particularly educated on theology or history. But I think she is missing the point and is wrong about calling the biblical God inferior. I am an atheist but I feel way more inspired from the old testament rather than those gnostic texts or new testament. I think it's a much more sensible God too if I were spiritual at all...

@matthewkopp2391

9 күн бұрын

@@bargledargle7941she is not saying the Old Testament god is inferior she is saying that certain early Christians held that belief. She described Marcion for example who believed in the demiurge vs the transcendent God. But a similar distinction is made in the Old Testament. At times God is YHWH and spoken of in anthropomorphic terms and then other times God is described as transcendent and in non-anthropomorphic terms such as I am. There is a theme in the Old Testament as to what constitutes idolatry and the same obsession occurs with Plato who described the demiurge in more neutral terms versus a transcendent god. Early Christianity was infused with Platonism and some took the Plato demiurge idea as evil because of the evil in the world and the evil demonstrated by an Old Testament god. She is just describing different ideas that were around at the time.

@bargledargle7941

8 күн бұрын

@@matthewkopp2391 It's important you corrected me about this. I think the idea of "God of the old testament is evil or inferior" is extremely unattractive and spiritually poor.

@gaylerosenthal1828

5 күн бұрын

@@matthewkopp2391 I am Jewish and she sounds like she wishes she were Jewish too. I am reading "A LIttle Boy in Search of God" by Isaac Bashevis Singer and he speaks of pantheistic ideas. They sound very similar.

Glad to see you get actual Gnostics on here. This is a reminder to all: The Early Gnostics did not call themselves 'Gnostics' they considered themselves Christians and simply disagreed with the orthodoxy. According to the Apocrypha of John, the main Tragedy in the Gnostic Creation myth was Sophia (a child of the Original God) birthing the Demiurge (aka Yaldabaoth) without the consent of the original God. This was the tragedy instead of eating from the apple. I reccomend ESOTERICA as an introduction to the whole concepts its pretty interesting. 😊

@japexican007

11 күн бұрын

I recommended the video on my playlist “wake up this world is an illusion” titled Dualism: the Illuminati Religion, I pray you wake up from the lowercase god if this world who blinds those who believe not

@VERIAS1122

11 күн бұрын

Fascinating

@rimbusjift7575

11 күн бұрын

Memory is finite. Save space for relevant matters.

@bubbag8895

11 күн бұрын

Not a fan of Gnosticism, but it does have some interesting tidbits imo

@tangimeme

11 күн бұрын

​@@rimbusjift7575 how do you know/judge what's relevant or not, especially considering you can't possibly know what will or won't be relevant in your future with any real certainty at all? I'm 100% sure you don't have a memory full of only "relevant" or utilitarian memories lol. Your comment is basically a roundabout way to do whataboutism and express that you don't care about this lol. It's very transparent, brother 😅 Let people enjoy the things they wanna enjoy instead of moralising and judging to make yourself feel special and smart 🤷‍♀️ The things you care about and think are important are just as accurate/inaccurate, meaningful/meaningless, and relevant/irrelevant as anyone else. You'd have to think pretty highly of yourself or lowly of others to believe otherwise and you should aim to avoid that. Maybe you really are extra special and know more "relevant" stuff than everyone else, but even that wouldn't make it make sense to judge what others want to use their minds for... People are allowed to enjoy things you don't care about and you don't have to let everyone know how you feel about it 🤷‍♀️

Can't wait to see you in Atlanta!

What an interesting subject and guest! So much went over my head but her passion for the subject made it quite inspiring, looking forward to the future discussions

I struggle with the lack of time spent on why the original church fathers felt the way they did about these texts. She makes it all feel very arbitrary. It seems apt to subject these texts to some textual criticism and dig in to why they were discarded.

@rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr1

9 күн бұрын

Yeah. These were the Scientologists of their day.

Amazing interview Alex. Listening while I fly home from Florida.

@bargledargle7941

10 күн бұрын

What would you feel if Alex asked a question related to paprika specifically in this interview? Is there any possible way this could be related to paprika in any way without changing the subject?

I always understood the hidden meaning of parables as an idiot or insincere filter. “Who who seeks finds, he who knocks the door opens” Alongside of ... “We have left all to follow You...” Alongside of “It is given to you to know the secret of the kingdom ... but to them I speak in parables.” So the disciples had access to the solutions to the enigmatic parables because they had proven they were sincere and willing to follow... The parables went out to provoke the seekers to seek. But the ones who just wanted to see a rock star ... they got what they wanted.

@Neognostic-pk5wu

10 күн бұрын

Spot on. Many maliciously ascribe the idea of secret teachings to some arbitrary exclusive club mentality. If you're open to it's ideas, it's open to you. For everyone else, what was left was Marx's "opiate of the masses".

Wonderful interview. Keep going dude

This is an incredible interview!

THE GOAT 🐐 ALEX O’CONNOR BACK AT IT AGAIN, I’ve learned so much from you my man, so grateful you’re around on KZread. LEGEND 🔥

@BillyBobs-zz5ol

4 күн бұрын

And what do u believe ?

Interesting discussion! I know that the title's a bit too long already, but I feel like you should include the guest's name in the title as you have with (almost?) all other guests

I really enjoyed this video Alex , thank you

Bravo and thank you, Alex and Elaine 🙏🤗

I'm sure she's brilliant, but it seems that she is fairly uncritical of the text, even going so far to affirm that the people who produced the texts are those whose name's the text have been given.

@debblouin

11 күн бұрын

Yeah, something progressive biblical critics don’t do for the gospels.

@toonyandfriends1915

10 күн бұрын

she says so but she probably knows it's just tradition

@swolejeezy2603

10 күн бұрын

@@toonyandfriends1915Yeah I think if Alex really pressed her she’d admit she doesn’t actually think Thomas or Philip wrote the gospels attributed to them

@rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr1

10 күн бұрын

Duh. She's only interested in undermining Christianity, not truth

@swolejeezy2603

10 күн бұрын

@@rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr1 She is quite clearly a Christian. I don’t doubt you and her disagree over details but she is a Christian all the same

This will be excellent!

Her knowledge and wisdom is appreciated thank you for delivering this!!

This woman has interesting information to consider.. Really appreciate this interview. It opens our mind.. Thank you so much!

Unfortunate that she says she’s only interested in text that is ‘spiritually worthwhile’ showing a biased perspective to fit her need for spirituality instead of being a champion for truth and accuracy in historical texts

@Si_Mondo

11 күн бұрын

If she was for historical accuracy, she wouldn't ascribe to Gnosticism 😂

@tanausu7

10 күн бұрын

@@Si_Mondo of course that’s the whole point of theology scholars, unless they’re atheists, they lean towards confirmation bias

@tanausu7

10 күн бұрын

@@Si_Mondo look at francesca stavrakopoulou

@achillez16

10 күн бұрын

Could you expand on why you think the 4 that were selected are more historically accurate?

@tanausu7

10 күн бұрын

@@Si_Mondo that’s the point that there’s confirmation bias by theology scholars, that prioritise belief over historical accuracy of events or information in texts. Pick and choose to fit their narratives. Check out the work of Francesca Stavrakopoulou. 😉

Wonderful to see Elaine on the podcast. I’ve been following her work for more than 20 years. Crucial insights on my spiritual journey. Thanks and cheers to you both.

@James-ll3jb

7 күн бұрын

"The gnostic gospels don't contradict the canonical gospels"--well that's a lie! She's still trying to convince herself the gnostic gospels are authentic secret teachings of Jesus!!!!!😅😅😅😅😅😅😅

@jenniferabel2811

3 күн бұрын

Are you aware of her ever acknowledging/addressing "A Course in Miracles"? I recently discovered it and am thunderstruck by its quality. I noticed similarities to some gnostic teaching, and some of those who study it have referred to it as "Neo-gnostic." Edit: I've reviewed some part of work, on youtube and elsewhere, but I've yet to see any reference to ACIM.

@James-ll3jb

3 күн бұрын

@@jenniferabel2811 no

Loved this interview! 10/10

Thank you for this interview. I've been fascinated with Gnosticism for a couple years now. I was raised Catholic and when I got older, I began to have many questions. The teaching of Christianity never really added up but when I began to study Gnosticism it began to all come together. These teachings tied up a lot of loose ends. It makes it all more believable. Although I don't know if I'll ever have complete faith.

Absolutely fascinating episode. Thank you, both.

Another great guest you have here Alex 👌🏾keep it up 👏🏾

Ahhh Elaine Pagels!! She's great!!! She is an excellent guest! Thanks for a great conversion

Aww it's heart warming to see her eyes light up when you asked a sensible interesting question.

I'm so excited to watch this video ❤ thank you

Great stuff, Alex. I love this road you are taking. I'm envisioning many conversations between you and Derek of Mythvision down the line.

brilliant as always

Cant wait to see her again in upcoming interviews!!!!

A very interesting interview. I loved hearing Elaine Pagels share her knowledge. Thank you Alex!

You should interview David Bentley Hart. So much to talk about.

@st.mephisto8564

11 күн бұрын

This!

@AnthonyCasadonte

11 күн бұрын

Couldn’t agree more

@Arthur.404

20 сағат бұрын

I was about to say just that.

A lot of the times, when Alex releases his videos, I become a bit skeptical of whether it would be interesting to watch or not simply because he has been discussing on a wide variety of topics lately. However, I'm quite delighted to announce that once I start watching any of his videos, I become hooked and can't really stop watching. I reckon I've got to stop doubting his ability to produce excellent content. Edit - I have begun to truly admire how he seeks to learn new concepts. I wish I really had his enthusiasm to learn.

@codegeek98

5 күн бұрын

He is a stellar and practiced conversationalist who always works to bring out the best of his partner.

@varunbhati1083

5 күн бұрын

@codegeek98 Certainly! He has earned a name for not only a conversationist, but also for a great interviewer!

A parable can be seen as a first explanation. First explanations will almost always be so simplified that they give answers contradicting the later conclusion.

I'm only 5 minutes in but I absolutely love the authentic joy Elaine has talking about the findings from 1945. It's so contagious, I love it. :)

I really like this! Academics need more outlets for what they find, and so for you to platform them are great :D

This is an incredible interview for a skeptic by a skeptic. I am interested in her perspective, but I wouldn't have gotten it anywhere else. This was done respectfully. Thank you.

Eyeopening conversation

This was absolutely fascinating. She is amazing. Thank you for posting this interview.. ..just amazing.

Great interview. Learned a lot and I'm looking forward to more discussions on the Gnostics. Please have Elaine back - religious historians are fascinating. She's has so much knowledge about religious texts and I'd love to hear more.

My older brother handed me Pagels' The Gnostic Gospels in the mid-80s, not so long after its publication. The discovery of these documents is fascinating, and Pagels' take on them is interesting. A great read.

really good stuff

What a delightful interviewee, you can tell how passionate she is about her work-- always makes for a lively discussion. Wonderful as always Alex!

Wow. This was a beautiful discussion.

I enjoyed the conversation. I hope you will keep this format of letting people tell their personal preferences and emotional connection to the texts. I also hope you will add book suggestions at the end, like good translations.

I’m coming to see you in Atlanta !

Hi, Alex, super interesting video, very cool!

@Mar-dk3mp

11 күн бұрын

it is time for you to leave this worthless sick obsessive empty stupid toxic cult called atheism, get the dignity you lost when you stopped to believe in God (and you can only kiss the a... of those godless alone people, that is disgusting) and come back freerly to God, Ok? (also because every Godenier is a lier and you know that) (we all know you are the worst generetion and none will cry when you will be gond) so go back to God and get some dignity back, ok?..

@Joel86543

11 күн бұрын

​@@Mar-dk3mp bro think he will convert people by offering them😂😂🤣. If atheism is a cult,what is religion?

How embarrassing! She appeals to Mark 4 and claims it doesn't give the secret teaching when it's right there if you keep on reading. The secret was the interpretation of the parables. These are the levels of self-deceit that one has to descend to in order to take these "gospels" seriously.

@serversurfer6169

7 күн бұрын

The reader only gets the secret explanation for the first of the four parables detailed in that chapter, and Mark finishes that discourse by saying that in public, Jesus used parables exclusively, and the disciples received the full explanations only in private. 🤷‍♂

@deborahdean8867

3 күн бұрын

​@@serversurfer6169and, its pretty clear and easy interpreting those parables. Do they have to give the plain version for every one? Though i can't remember one parable thats not explained. And why does he say they're given in parables? So the people will have ax n excuse not to yndetstand, an excuse to claim they didnt understand, a way to fuzzy the story so that the person would not be condemned to hell. Since its prophesied a time of teaching will come, and things be made plain to ALL, he said its better some dont get it right now because they couldnt achieve understanding. There is no mysterious teaching. No secret power. If you read it, its all totally plain and the the truth is simple. It needs one thing, exercise, enactment, practice. The individual must put the lesson into practice, that's faith and obedience. THAT is the secret to achieving the righteous state of being.

Best guest possible for this subject.

Awesome scholar to interview, Alex! Thank you both for this. 😊

“So that they will not understand” reminds me of the paradoxical pointing-out instructions of Zen and Tibetan Dzogchen Buddhism. So fascinating. We have been given such a narrow view of Christianity for thousands of years. In the light of intellectual investigation, something much deeper and (in my opinion) wiser emerges.

@Fernando-ek8jp

11 күн бұрын

Which is?

@this_alec

11 күн бұрын

@@Fernando-ek8jp An approach to spirituality which is much less preoccupied with doctrine than it is an experiential, integrated way of being in the world. Seeing the Divine as the “ground of being,” the mystery of the universe, rather than a petty God with tribalistic concerns. I think that might have been what Jesus meant by the “Kingdom.” Might just be wishful thinking, though. That being said, these are all very mystical ways of talking about what we know by way of Natural Science. The universe is vast and we are a small part of it. That’s enough for me. :)

@Fernando-ek8jp

11 күн бұрын

@@this_alec I may be completely misunderstanding, but the value I get from your response is basically the admission that we can't really be sure about everything so why not just accept that and stop pretending like we do, there's loads to learn out there.

@this_alec

11 күн бұрын

@@Fernando-ek8jp Certainly not what I meant :)

@Fernando-ek8jp

11 күн бұрын

@@this_alec Then I'm still not understanding what you meant. Maybe you're just applying the principle of speaking in ways explicitly meant to hide their meaning?

It's fantastic to see such a fantastic atheist thinker really enjoying discussing Christian history and theology. I was an atheist myself most of my life. Its so wonderful to see that people who don't believe in the supernatural elements still seeing value in the philosophy. That's how I switched teams originally. If you enjoy this you would also enjoy ESOTERICA who Alex had on last week and Filip over at th channel LETS TALK RELIGION that covers mysticism in a similar way to this , especially Sufi mysticism but Christian and Jewish also. I think Alex is absolutely wonderful.

Thank you Alex! These conversations are so fascinating and informative. You are a wonderful host and respected scholar in your own right. Bravo! 👏

THIS IS MY DREAM COLLAB. I love Elaine Pagels so so much!!

There is a 5th century Armenian church father called Yeznik of Koxb. He mops the floor with gnostics. His book is available.

I’d heard that Pagels was ill and might not make it. I’m glad to see her up and around again.

The Gnostic texts of Pistis Sophia is a fun read. Jesus explains to Sophia (according to the text she was the first to see him after resurrection ) the 12 dimensions and the beings that dwell there as he passed through on the way to meeting God in the 13th Dimension. She constantly asks great questions.

This was excellent Alex and Elaine, thank you.

Read "Not In His Image" by John Lamb Lash, who translated the Nag Hamadi scrolls. Completely different (gnostic) creation story.

Please have on Thomas W. Clark. He's the founder of The Center for Naturalism, and coined the term "Generic Subjective Continuity" (Sam Harris did a podcast episode on it). Tom speaks on consciousness, atheism, determinism, death, morality, AI, and other philosophical topics. He will be in an upcoming interview with Sam's wife, Annaka Harris.

I'm so glad i started following this channel.

Such a cool and passionate scholar! Been loving her work for decades. What a privilege to live in the online age!

@James-ll3jb

7 күн бұрын

"The gnostic gospels don't contradict the canonical gospels"--well that's a lie! She's still trying to convince herself the gnostic gospels are authentic secret teachings of Jesus!!!!!😅😅😅😅😅😅😅

@Sveccha93

7 күн бұрын

@@James-ll3jb I really don’t think so. I sense you may be deaf to nuance. Do you have strong pre existing beliefs about the reality behind the gospels?

@James-ll3jb

7 күн бұрын

@@Sveccha93 Not particularly. I have 2 advanced degrees in this stuff and have more than once nabbed Ehrman lying on the facts. It has nothing to do with "nuance." The yoyo for years denied Jesus thought himself divine until recently shown a Marcan passage confirming the opposite. The poor s.o.b. wasn't even able to acknowkedge his error! (And his rationale for disbelieving the Resurrection belong in logical comedy whether you believe in it or not!)

@Sveccha93

7 күн бұрын

@@James-ll3jb no offense, but yours are not the words of a serious person, right or wrong. I see nothing but transparent ideology and emotion. Certainly Bart and Elaine get things wrong, but your dismissiveness is empty defensiveness. Yawn. Good luck to you.

@James-ll3jb

7 күн бұрын

@@Sveccha93 I know overt lying when I see it. And good luck to you, sir lol

"babies in Christ" has a nice ring. I'm going to change out "my brother in Christ" for it.

Growing up As a Christian, I always felt there was something missing in the Church and so I became agnostic for many years. Around 2020, I came across the gnostic text and they had such a profound impact on me. I found what I never found from being in the church, and for me that was the concept of Gnosis. Knowledge that comes from direct experience. Since 2021, I have become a practicing gnostic and I have been experienced direct truths regarding humanity, life, death, and the mysteries of space. Each an every day I continue to learn more and more about life and this universe and I am incredibly grateful to walk this path. I will say, it is not just for anyone and especially not for the faint heart. One of my favorite things about Gnosticism is that I no longer have to go to any pastors, church leaders, or priest for answers. I can simply seek out answers myself through the practices.

@The_Omniscient_Being

4 күн бұрын

Which denomination were you a part of?

@BornR3STLESS

4 күн бұрын

@@The_Omniscient_Being I mostly attended baptist and pentocostal churches. I still attend these churches occasionally with my family, but I haven't told them about my core beliefs. I keep private about my own spiritual life and practices.

@The_Omniscient_Being

4 күн бұрын

@@BornR3STLESS I think you should explore Eastern Orthodox Christianity,many protestants in the US leave the religion without exploring other Denominations

@BornR3STLESS

4 күн бұрын

@@The_Omniscient_Being I've looked a little bit into it. There are definitely some things I appreciate more than modern protestanism. My main thing drawback of the orthodox church is you still need to rely on priest and etc. I prefer gnosticism because it's mostly an individualistic practice. Yes, there are gnostic instructors, but they basically teach us on how to speak with divinity ourselves. There's no need for a middleman.

@RahelJovani

Күн бұрын

Gnostics are Bill gate like people. They were arrogant. Go to church and eat drink Jesus flesh and blood otherwise you will be in Hell. Don't relay on knowledge or experience. Jesus is the bread of life.

In Kerala, India we believe that St. Thomas came to India in AD 52.

Alex this was bloody fascinating - thank you so much for this

Excellent guest. Dr Pagels is an outstanding scholar and speaker and you interacted with her perfectly.

@johnwheeler3071

10 күн бұрын

I agree. Alex didn't let her off the hook when she claimed the God of the Orthodox interpretation was just made up by Irenaeus and Marcion but is actually within the texts that she espouses. Elaine is very sneaky like Jordan Peterson.

This is exactly the type of content i want. Thank you

Wow, you actually got Elaine Pagels! Read her first book years ago, but first time I have heard her speak about the topic. I enjoyed it!

Wow! Great. I like this gal a lot. Great interview.

I take issue with the verbiage of "Banned from the Bible". No book is banned from the Bible. A great deal of books are not included in the canon. The Gnostic writings are as banned from the Bible as Winnie the Pooh or The Iliad is.

@matthewkopp2391

9 күн бұрын

Perhaps the better way of saying it was banned from the orthodoxy which obviously they were by Irenaeus.

@benl8962

6 күн бұрын

Well the Catholic Church actively decided these books wouldnt be included, and im pretty sure they didnt have the same discussion about winnieh the Pooh

@jacobmccoy8063

6 күн бұрын

@@benl8962 they had the conversation, implicitly, about every other piece of literature in existence at the time of the setting of the canon.

@scotthancock305

6 күн бұрын

@@jacobmccoy8063that’s some serious willful ignorance. No early church fathers discussed classical texts as contenders for canon literature or why they should be included or excluded. No early church fathers actively attacked the breadth of classical teaching. They specifically attacked these Judeo Christian texts, and there is a reason for that.

@kenkaplan3654

4 күн бұрын

They BURNED THEM ALL. Why do you think they were collected, put in a jar and buried?

Ah, finally, I've been waiting for this. Can't wait to see the rest

Alex. Please invite Christopher's brother on again. I want to test whether time dilation lenses around huge egos. Always great videos. Thank you.

It would be nice to see the interviewee's name up front or on the thumbnail. I have the Gnostic Bible so was pleased to find this interview.

@billwalton4571

4 күн бұрын

you have the fake bible

Wow, Elaine Pagels is a beautiful person. Thanks for the introduction to her and her work. You're doing God's work, Mr. O'Connor.

Fascinating and badly needed! ❤

Excellent debate! Thank you 🤩

I would have appreciated it more if you at least asked a question related to paprika. One day if I ever come to your talks, if there's Q&A I will come up and ask "What does your own moral and ethical system say about attempting to discuss paprika in your talks? What would most likely be the ethical and moral consequences?"

Banned? How about “not included in the canon”?

@nicholascarter9158

10 күн бұрын

I mean, somewhere around "ordered to bury your copies in the ground" we're going in the direction of a ban

@deborahdean8867

3 күн бұрын

​@@nicholascarter9158its true, they weren't banned or ordered destroyed . They just werebtvinckuded in the cannon, but they were all over the scholarly world. I thought the same thing. Like it's an appeal to forbidden, secret stuff when nothing could be further from the truth.

You got Elaine Pagels on your show. What a pleasant surprise!

@Neognostic-pk5wu

10 күн бұрын

I was psyched when I read her name, I had to do a double-take! 😅

Thanks for posting this. ❤

Thank you for an amazing episode

The Apocryphon of John does in fact have “yaldaboath” who is indicated to be the Demiurge and creator of the material world, mistakenly though, as the real creator was ‘Sophia’. That text is just what Irenaeus claims it to be.

@jursamaj

11 күн бұрын

I get a lot of the sense that this woman has just imposed her own views on all of it (as believers are wont to do).

@middleway100

11 күн бұрын

@@jursamajI absolutely got the same feeling. To not want to even comment on that side of the texts was disappointing.

@GnosticInformant

10 күн бұрын

@@jursamaj not necessarily. The majority of the "gnostic" gospels do in fact align with Paul's 7 authentic epistles and Jesus' parables from the 4 major Gospels. And most of the so called "gnostics" did not think the creator was evil.

@donnmckee4973

10 күн бұрын

​@@GnosticInformant "most" is the important part of your comment thats relevant to this comment thread. She seemed to dodge or wave away any mention of such a thing even being in the texts.

@lambdanebula8473

10 күн бұрын

You're speaking from the Valentinian view, which is a specific view formed by Valentinus which substantially deviated from typical view during the time in many ways. In some sense, is view is an attempt at the creation of a new canon, in part out of rebellion against the church after he was passed over as bishop, and as such, in another sense, it's a new form of Gnosticism which more aptly fits his own personal views. One of his deviations from tradition is to place Sophia, the aeon of wisdom, and the feminine embodiment of the mother and the holy spirit, as the demiurge. This is directly opposed to other depictions of Sophia. In reality, the only connection between Sophia and the creation of the material is that she managed to inject wisdom into it as it was being formed, thus averting a much worse disaster. The demiurge has many names, but three names I find most descriptive are Yaldabaoth, Yahweh, and Samael. Sophia is not among the names of the demiurge. Sophia never rebelled against Bythos, and it would be quite strange indeed if the aeon of wisdom of all aeons, was the flawed idea that brought about the material world.

I'll stick with Athanasius, thank you.

would love to see Alex have a chat with Michael Hudson about the research at the Peabody museum on the Dead Sea scrolls and how the term 'sin' is potentially a miss translation through multiple languages from the aramaic mord 'kohba' meaning 'debt'.

I love her, she is so cool a out the discoverys of those discoveries

The short answer - and the best - is : fairly late writings (noted at a late date, if not actually written later than the last of the texts accepted as of apostolic origin), i.e. those that did not make it into the Catholic canon (list) of texts used for the Liturgies. Many of the better types (and those frequently used in Catholic circles) are still found in the listings associated with The Fathers, or used in various traditions .. e.g. of scholarly or pastoral use, The Protoevangelium of James, The Acts of Paul and Thecla, The Gospel and Acts of Thomas, others are more like modern popular 'novels' of the 'Ben Hur' or 'The Robe' types, as in The Assumption, Letter of Pontius Pilate, Apocalypse of Moses, etc. These and other early Christian texts - specifically or incidentally not included in the term 'all scripture' can be found online (free) at New Advent - Catholic Encyclopedia - Fathers. These include some texts that could have made it into the Canon of the Catholic Holy Bible, 1 Clement, Barnabas, Shepherd of Hermas, Liturgy of James, Didache .. but were not sufficiently widely known, used, or listed (the current Apocalypse in the Catholic list of Scripture very nearly did not make it into the list for the same reasons, but familiarity in some the oldest or most respect 'Sees' like Rome, Alexandria, Antioch seem to have won the day, and Hebrews also had a bit of bumpy ride, along with 2 Peter and Jude). The division of Gnostic (mystical, sectarian, or occult knowledge) and Catholic (creedal, liturgical, common use) types was not always as clear-cut as history (or rather as historians) may like to present it; as present within the Catholic Church until the Reformation, i.e. the Saints' Lives (Perpetua and Felicity, Barlaam and Josephat, Sergius and Bacchus, Magdelene, Nicholas or George or Martin or Monica), the mystics (Novatian's Concerning the Trinity, Gertrude of Helfta's 'Insinuationes divinae pietatis', Julian of Norwich 'Revelations of Divine Love'); and even today .. requiring approval of the local Ordinary, the Holy Office (now a Dicastery), or a reigning Sovereign Pontiff (aka the Pope, cf the slightly dubious 'Divine Mercy' devotion of Faustina Kowalaska) .. and such like .... Keep the Faith; tell the truth, shame the devil, and let the demons shriek. God bless. ;o)

If you’re in Atlanta, you need to do a show with Andy Stanley - one of the largest non-denominational pastors in America. You two would get along great! It would be fascinating to watch!

Jeez how interesting would it have been if she’d discussed Judas saying He knew what realm Jesus was from …..

Thank you🌷