I just wanted to update this by saying that I've now reached out to Thomas Ronhaar to hear his side of the story. I think it's important to hear both sides before settling on a conclusion. EDIT Thomas responded to my message and decided that he didn't want to appear in an interview. He was polite and courteous but didn't want to add any more discussion to the topic.

@mja2317

Жыл бұрын

Doubt he's going to have much to say tbh.

@ConeJellos

Жыл бұрын

You gonna share that side of the story then? Lol

@Jimmy_Broadbent

Жыл бұрын

​@Cody Jones if he responds, sure.

@GabrielP2R

Жыл бұрын

@@ConeJellos his side: "I don't cheat I'm just faster than everyone else magically"

@danielwood8864

Жыл бұрын

be interesting to see if he gets back to you.. EA have anticheat in FIFA23 but i wouldnt be hopefull if it EA's decision to fix this as you cant even use a controller properly in FIFA.. fingers crossed codemasters can step up

"Whenever big money is involved, big cheating follows" - Confucius, probably

@Atlas.Brooklyn

Жыл бұрын

That was Plato but you're close

@tobytoxd

Жыл бұрын

You're all wrong. There was another greek god called Onestone. He's much much older.

@dbzcollector9963

Жыл бұрын

@@tobytoxd the ancient stoned one?

@michelvanbriemen3459

Жыл бұрын

"With great power comes great cheating" - Spiderman

@thalesesteves

Жыл бұрын

​@@michelvanbriemen3459it's uncle Ben, actually

I think the fact we have 2 videos in 5 days on this topic just shows how out of hand this has got, needs to stop fast to keep what we have left of sim racing’s reputation to the outside world, if they know what it is…

@freedomisslavery6840

Жыл бұрын

lol get a grip son, its video game racing. It's not real. Many of you guys here need to put down the game controller and get back in the real world, your priorities are all mixed up.

@Dolek135

Жыл бұрын

@@freedomisslavery6840 The cars may not be real, but the racing certainly is. It's a competition and in a competition you're looking to beat other players. Wouldn't you be concerned if you were getting beaten by someone illegitimately after having done hours upon hours of practice? For some simracing isn't just a hobby, but a job they make a living off of.

@devinaschenbrenner2683

Жыл бұрын

@freedomisslavery6840 there no difference here than when people cheat is physical sports. It's the same. Yes the cars and tracks are virtual. But the talent is not, and has been shown that it can and will translate to an actual car. The accusations are just as legitimate as if someone in F1 were cheating. It's a competition for money. So why don't you calm down butter cup and stop being butt hurt about people being in an uproar over credibility for something they love? Hmm.

@Coxy_Wrecked

Жыл бұрын

@@freedomisslavery6840 "son"😂Is that supposed to give you an air of authority on the matter? Yes,it's a 'video game' in which a lot of money can be won and a lot of money is invested in taking part,so it's safe to say cheating would be the cause of a lot of peoples ire. Also many current and former professional motorsport drivers take part in sim racing and take it seriously enough to dedicate many hours practising it . But I guess Max Verstappen has his priorites all mixed up,right? You sound like a humongous 🔔🔚 son.

@quiet_ocelot2266

Жыл бұрын

@@freedomisslavery6840 maybe its ok for you to get beaten by Cheaters after 1000+ hours of hard training... and not only get robbed from the succes also the Price Money is pretty good... and Money has a effect in our "real world" so please put your Keybord down and go in your own world

I've been using aimbot on F1 22 and my T1 torpedo success rate has gone through the roof

@scott4207

Жыл бұрын

*Gone through the sidepods

If Ronhaar is innocent, then he should be calling for Anticheat and LAN more than anyone else to confirm his performances are actually down to skill.

@jacob1121

Жыл бұрын

Back in the early days of Quake, Counterstrike and WC3 many cheaters would talk big, trashtalk online , and qualify for big LANs only to not show up. It's a tale as old as competitive gaming has existed.

@SpielkindFR

Жыл бұрын

Without trying to judge if he's cheating or not, because I frankly haven't got the first clue about the game. But no matter if he's cheating or not, once the allegations are out there there is nothing for him to say that can make them go away short of hard proof. Best thing he can do is shut the f up about it and be just as dominant on lan.

@katrinapaton5283

Жыл бұрын

Or he could go on line, use the grip cheat and show us how much difference it makes. Its so simple a solution that him not doing it tends to imply to me he has something to hide.

@ashavi1348

Жыл бұрын

@@katrinapaton5283 Ah yes, because suddenly using hacks won't cause any more public uproar of the "oh so you already know how to use it oeeeeh" sort, plus there would be no time difference if he just ever so slightly goes off the racing line or lifts more than usual to remain in the same target delta as his "non-cheated" lap times. The only way he can clear himself is either once EA/Codie introduces an anti-cheat (Those sadly can still be avoided, as has been the case with VAC, Easy Anti-Cheat and BattleEye), or by racing on LAN under full supervision. Until then, innocent until proven guilty, but with the general consensus leaning towards guilty.

@katrinapaton5283

Жыл бұрын

@@ashavi1348 I think you missed the point. He's claimed he had it on his computer to help Codies and EA to look into how it works. We already know he knows how to use it, the question is, is he faster using it, because he should be shouldnt he?

A simracing legend and a champion meets Jarno Opmeer

@DGARedRaven

Жыл бұрын

The best part is that, technically, you are 100% correct :D

@phillewis1749

Жыл бұрын

​@@DGARedRavenThe best kind of correct 😄

@comradical

Жыл бұрын

Oh, come on, you come in 69 (giggidy) points short and end up second overall in a (highly competitive) F4 championship, and win 2 consecutive esports titles and now you are not a champion or a legend all of a sudden. I thought we were better than that, slavic.

@slavic_cousin9988

Жыл бұрын

@@comradical Um, mate, I was joking, as do people around these places. I wasn't trying to belittle Jarno in any way

@DGARedRaven

Жыл бұрын

@@comradical Just a quick question... where exactly does the OP say that Opmeer is neither a champion nor a legend? :)

You guys are big personalities in the Sim Racing world and a fair equal playing field is all that we ask for. I want to test my self against other drivers, I want to grow as a racer and competitor.

@chungusamongus519

Жыл бұрын

Dox Ronhaar

@DrJReefer

Жыл бұрын

​@Rachel Wood We can't all be F1 drivers. Being a very average club racer is fine too. The point is to have fun. Winning is a bonus.

Super cool to see someone of Jarno's caliber A: talk about this at all, but B: discuss it at length as much as he can without getting slammed for defamation. I said it before, but i hope the shenanigans that have come to light this year, be it esports cheating or server instability in the largest sim event of the year, result in a true next generation of sims. The sims holding these high level events shouldn't have 15 years of tech debt crippling them

@mediumsizedcal

Жыл бұрын

The first defence of slander or defamation is truth, so regardless of whether there is no conclusive proof or conviction, if what Jarno is insinuating is true, he doesn't have anything to worry about.

Its crazy to think these guys are just allowed to play with their own pc’s and gear online. If you look at other esports, csgo for example. Everything at lan is searched trough to make sure nobody cheats and still sometimes a “pro” pops up that had been cheating. With this amount of money involved f1 really needs to step up its anti cheat, at least for the pro drivers

@nickklavdianos5136

Жыл бұрын

They used to race lan before covid.

@TomMY-dA-K1nG

Жыл бұрын

@britI exactly

@ShellzHD

Жыл бұрын

@@naosounaofui Source? Would like to see what pros have done at the top tier of csgo on Lan

@yoMXTT

Жыл бұрын

​@@ShellzHDAlot of it is swept under the rug. If you've followed it for years and years like many, There are plenty of examples. Just like In most sports, Steriods are all over the place.

@philstansfield

Жыл бұрын

​@@ShellzHD look up optic India "forsaken" Plenty of videos of it.

Ronhaar is the has the fastest pace regularly missing apexes, that's a talent nobody else has

@Miszaification

Жыл бұрын

And never experience wheel-spin also

I think LAN events is really the only way to full combat this. When you have so much money at stake... cheats nearly always stay ahead of the anti-cheat. The problem with Sim Racing is as said... the cheats are invisible. Whilst there are some that are more obvious, its possible to cheat very, very small margins as mentioned and its just not possible to detect on review. I understand the point made about not wanting to rely on eyeballing, but ultimately that is how SO many cheats do get caught. Aimbots, someone used to watching the e-sport can see it. Whilst some stuff can probably be caught on VoD review (ERS maniulation is likely doable) things like tyre wear and fuel saving manipulations are going to be next to impossible if they are done to a minor degree, whilst still being a big benefit when everyone is so closely matched.

@kostinho790

Жыл бұрын

But still, out of those who are going to compete in LAN events, some of them might have been qualified via online events, where they might have won by... cheating. I mean, it's nearly impossible to vanish cheaters from the competitive scene without having a somewhat stable anti-cheat.

@MyrKnof

Жыл бұрын

Just sucks that online play will always be plagued by it then, if that's their solution. Cheats are not invisible to the software though, although it introduces a whole new load on the system to check and verify the simulations or files used. Thats why stuff like denouvo is so universally hated.

@samay5902

Жыл бұрын

​@@MyrKnof denuvo only checks if the game was bought or not and it tanks cpu performance, different from anticheat

@dylanzrim3635

Жыл бұрын

Hackers in FPS games have a movement code used to communicate with other hackers through walls and terrain. Easiest way to catch them? DL wall hacks yourself and do the motion, anyone who responds is hacking. (At your own risk)

@olnnn

Жыл бұрын

@@wolfie54321 I mean in games like csgo all the actual simulation is done on the server, the client just sends inputs and recieves updates on what changes (and interpolates based on that). The clien should ideally never be trusted to do simluation by itself and just report where it moved to as that will leave the door open for manipulation (ofc plenty of games do this anyhow to save server cost/bandwidth or whatever). It doesn't stop all forms of cheating (e.g aimbotting and wallhacks in FPS still work) on it's own of course but still a big help. Not sure why a esports-focused game would trust the client on anything unless in the case of simracing the calucations are just so extremely assive that it gets impractical but I'm not overly familiar with the internals of racing gmes.

We need to get jarno a air conditioner 😂

@benjamin_kk

Жыл бұрын

add shampoo and hair conditioner to that.

@robertcarr4172

Жыл бұрын

Sweaty Boi

@dragon2knight

Жыл бұрын

Nah, he's kinda hot sweaty 😁😁

@dbzcollector9963

Жыл бұрын

He needs new shirts, his collar looks so worn it’s dam near a v neck.

@ryancairns3111

Жыл бұрын

@@dbzcollector9963 legit thought that 😂😂😂

F1 should record inputs like Trackmania does and then you can repeat the same inputs to determine if the outcome is the same. Also all the 'world state' should be there like track state, weather etc. No way to cheat that

@10acious32

Жыл бұрын

seriously man, It shouldn't be that hard collect telemetry from the whole race then simulate the whole thing on a clean PC.

@Puj0

Жыл бұрын

@@10acious32 Game engine probably doesn't have a capability to do that. Trackmania doesn't need to have near real time sync while doing online races, F1 does. It brings out many complexities. If they created a new game engine with that in mind, maybe we would get both better online races and basically integrated anti-cheat

@drift7rs

Жыл бұрын

Unforturnately i think this only works in TM because its physics are deterministic (same inputs = same run), which F1 (as well as other simracing games) aren’t (at least, as far as i know). However, recording inputs should be very doable and would be useful to gather more info

@hmp01

Жыл бұрын

@@drift7rs broo please don't write things you don't understand, f1 games are nowhere near being sim racing games

@tyrantworm7392

Жыл бұрын

@@hmp01 You are just getting blinded by semantics, I think the inference is that there are more variables in F1 than TM, which seems fair. If you have enough understanding of the game physics and variables involved to know otherwise then speak up, otherwise it seems you just want to look down your nose at F1 instead of actually understanding what was written.

Big respect to Jarno for doing this interview as was seen in the clip of him trying to talk about Thomas cheating his team and the league as a whole was trying to keep this quiet so big respect for him for doing this

For the past few days I have been writing on covering this issue (will post it on my personal blog), after digging into the rabbit hole there is something that bothering me, the officials, teams, and even the driver himself didn't give any clear and bold statement to this issue. This has allowed the controversy to keep growing and is concerning. Thanks for both of you for this video! 🤟

@Maartwo

Жыл бұрын

Yeah because the teams, sponsors and organizations/leagues are in on the "secret". Other teams and players might be shutting up to prepare legal action as I read that prizes gained through cheating in professional competitions can be a ticket to jail or fines.

@RindiTechEntertainment

Жыл бұрын

​@@Maartwo Yeah I hope their silence is due to them working on a significant resolution behind the scenes. In some cases, silence is necessary, and I hope that is the case here.

@gabrielmaldonado9935

Жыл бұрын

I'd like to hear your blog, but can you explain how are they cheating?? I mean what are they doing exactly.

@RindiTechEntertainment

Жыл бұрын

@@gabrielmaldonado9935 That is the most interesting part, up until now, there is no solid proof of him cheating but no one want to defend him like they are waiting the official announcement of him cheating.

@mihastoka7814

Жыл бұрын

Who is gonna read it?

I never really watched Jarno's content but he seems like a very level headed, humble guy. All the best for him!

@mihaiconstantin-pau5116

Жыл бұрын

You should watch some of it. He is alien in skills but still humble

@b.s.7693

Жыл бұрын

​@@mihaiconstantin-pau5116 probably he's cheating 😂

@justinkrizenesky

Жыл бұрын

He used to be an absolute ego-maniac, but he is much MUCH nicer and more humble now, which is great to see. Seems like a great guy.

@hudanofendi3028

Жыл бұрын

He's Dutch, no way the guy is humble

@mchouseboat3405

Жыл бұрын

​@@hudanofendi3028 bro what lmfao.

LAN events with strict monitoring by refs is a insanely good method of preventing cheating and furthermore one can add a live crowd to scream for extra hype around the game

Props to Jarno for speaking out. This issue needs to be sorted ASAP.

Fair play to Jarno. He is kinda risking a lot in the pursuit of fair-play (in a sea of ppl who dgaf). Mercedes better hold onto this guy. That's a great brand ambassador right there.

F1 Esports should have an F1 esports client that gives it's telemetry data directly to a "black box" that can easily be accessed by stewards. The people who make the game can easily run a test to see what the absolute limits of a track are with AI driving. They don't have to go LAN they just need to actually take this seriously. I'm genuinely surprised the FIA isn't going berserk like they usually do at the slightest hint of a possible exploit/cheat in IRL racing.

@sanderlahuis5698

Жыл бұрын

From what I understand this would be quite difficult to do, because F1 22 is not a deterministic game. The exact same steering angle lap after lap will still result in a slightly different path, which makes it so much harder to catch someone cheating. In a game like Trackmania, where the physics are deterministic, the inputs can be recorded precisely, and can be compared to the outputs like you describe, which is exactly what happens. The exact same steering input lap after lap will result in the exact same steering path and the exact same lap time. For whatever reason, that's just not possible with the way F1 works

Aside from anti-cheat, detailed live telemetry (transmitted encrypted, tamper checks on every member variable) is also a pretty decent way to statistically catch cheaters - but you'll need the infrastructure and software development time for it. It's not impossible if resources are poured into it, and it can still be fairly unintrusive. Forcing players to install rootkits goes too far imo.

@sambroughton

Жыл бұрын

Encryption and tamper checks won't do anything useful, considering the unencrypted data must necessarily be available on the client side and may be modified prior to encryption. Ultimately, you cannot trust data produced by the client, so there would need to be a way to check on the server-side whether the car moved in an impossible (according to the physics engine) way.

@99EKjohn

Жыл бұрын

The only way to design a proper anti-cheat is to give it kernel access. It sucks but if you don't then all a hack needs to do to bypass you is get kernel access itself. An anti-cheat needs that access to function with any sort of confidence or ability. People that download hacks don't care if the hack has kernel access either, they know who their buying from, they know it's safe. You should trust the same with an anti-cheat since we're taking about a full public corporation, not a random, possibly shady, game hacker. You can be as anti-corp as you want, (not that you are anti-corp) but you have to admit a public, easily able to be located, company is more trustworthy than a random internet programmer.

@suokkos

Жыл бұрын

@@99EKjohn , Even kernel access isn't enough to trust client data. If the hack has kernel side code (or virtual machine), even the kernel side data is potentially modified. Of course the kernel anti-cheat solution makes it a bit harder to cheat but the difference isn't major. Server side data is the only trustworthy data. A server side physic engine would be the easiest method to reduce cheating opportunities with fairly high confidence. It could be possible to redesign networking code to always require server side physics but that is likely a lot of work. An easier solution would be mostly keep the current networking code but add a server side physics engine to detect cheating. Detection would be based on comparing the client physics to server calculation with a small error tolerance for floating point inaccuracies.

@99EKjohn

Жыл бұрын

@@suokkos Yep, all good ideas, I was just saying an anti-cheat kinda has to be a "rootkit" if it's going to be of any real use. No you never trust the user, that's like programing 101, so a program that scans memory for anything manipulating it is a start.

@vikhr

Жыл бұрын

@@99EKjohn >a public, easily able to be located, company is more trustworthy Not really, you have major examples such as Microsoft, Meta, and others. Comparing someone who deliberately downloads a cheat to someone who just wants to play a game is far fetched imo. The best case scenario (and what will probably end up happening) is that gaming will leave general purpose computers and will stay mostly on consoles, or at most you will have the option to install a "secure" OS that is almost fully locked down (which is the path Windows seems to be slowly crawling towards). At least this would separate the gaming machine from a personal one, so now you don't have to worry about installing ANY rootkits on your PC. I honestly don't think this would be such a change, the majority of PC gamers are already fine with kernel ACs, they think that subscription models for almost everything is fine, they don't care about DRM, they also like to buy expensive rigs and have steam accounts worth hundreds to thousands. So, in the end nothing would change apart from having to get a new machine just for gaming.

Thanks Jarno, real cool of you to come talk about this, even if you're still a bit muzzled. fight the good fight!

I think the whole "I'm just testing it with EA and Codemasters" is a load of bollocks. If he was truly "officially testing" it, he wouldn't have closed the window that quickly in a panic, and nonchalantly explained what it is and why it's there if someone asked. His initial reaction to the .exe being shown, was one of shock, regret and contemplation on what to say next.

@ethangraham1392

Жыл бұрын

Yeah the reaction is completely opposite to someone who’s meant to be “testing” but like Jarno said he wasn’t using them in league races so maybe he’s embarrassed that he just mistakenly showed them when it seems like it’s meant to be kept quiet

@spankyjeffro5320

11 ай бұрын

Really? To me it looked like he was trying not to laugh.

The fact that nothing was in place to prevent this is ridiculous and inadmissible.. that's like leaving the trophy room open and unguarded. ya, sure, right. It wasn't by accident.

@tarettime9392

Жыл бұрын

I mean it does cost money to develop we all know how little effort EA wants the games to have put into them each year. They probably haven’t added it cause they financially haven’t had the incentive to yet

@samay5902

Жыл бұрын

​@@tarettime9392 cant they integrate easy anticheat? its in many indie games ffs

@tarettime9392

Жыл бұрын

@@samay5902 I’m saying that anti cheats cost money and if it costs more then they’re losing due to not having it why would EA care. They don’t care about the quality of their product.

@samay5902

Жыл бұрын

@@tarettime9392 surely they care a little about the image of the game, right? oh who am i kidding, its ea ffs, my bad

Over 15 years ago I wrote a tool to add some extra features to a racing game. Kind of save/restore feature which allowed me to practice specific parts of a track. I also made it to practice my reverse engineering skills. I'm surprised that all these years later it is still that easy.

Jarno is Dutch. One thing about the Dutch to know is: we will speak our minds, always.

@ms8ff153

Жыл бұрын

As do brits

@ConeJellos

Жыл бұрын

These generalizations are so dumb. Lol

@KinGzeDK

Жыл бұрын

Ronhaar is dutch too....

@IrLosin

Жыл бұрын

@@ConeJellos I know a lot of expats who move to the Netherlands and call us rude because of it. It's not a generalization, it's a cultural thing.

@IrLosin

Жыл бұрын

​@@KinGzeDK I was just responding to people finding it weird Jarno did this.

Jimmer with the Paul Pheonix trim

@radekmilewicz6192

Жыл бұрын

SSJ Boris Johnson

@NASCARfan4327

Жыл бұрын

Jim Pierre Polnareff

@amr1t_

Жыл бұрын

@@radekmilewicz6192 LMAO

Well done Jarno for speaking out and to Jimmy for using his audience to highlight the issue! Hopefully Codies can pressure F1 to give them time and resources to fix this.

Thank you much for this great interview! I respect Jarno for being this true to such high levels of decency.

Such a mature and in-depth conversation - thank you Jimmy and Jarno!

It was the same thing back when I first played online in NFS high stakes and then NFS Porsche Unleashed. I remember when someone found a way to tell if someone was cheating by racing against them and then checking the replay data, turned out most of the top guys were at it. With robotics and AI there is going to need to be a lab controlled environment for trustworthy racing to continue in the coming future.

I know Jarno is most likely satisfied with where he is right now, but i would love to see him hop back into car racing. With his new name and image sponsorship will 100% be easier to find.

The correct answer to the question is some variation of, "if he is that good, we need to get some anticheat in place to protect him and clear his name. We need to protect a talent of that level, and take the steps needed to clear his name. That process is in everyone's best interest, most of all someone like him, whose dominance is being marred by cheating suspicions and allegations."

@murraydmark

Жыл бұрын

He’s cheating. Just stop

@vladdorian..

Жыл бұрын

Agreed. He sounds super bitter and butthurt. “Alvaro is testing it but he would NEVER EVER use it.. we believe him ❤️” was also a sign of delusion.

@jeffreytackett3922

Жыл бұрын

@@murraydmark lNobody said he wasn't cheating. I provided an answer that is political and still leaves room for an allegation. Your reading comprehension is such shit that you don't understand what you read.

Amazing for Jarno to effectively clear Alvaro.

@Eat-MyGoal

Жыл бұрын

When game hacks are the work of computer programmers, and to eliminate them you need to see how they work in terms of coding not driving - how is an esports driver 'testing' them any use at all? All Alvaro could do is say 'yeah I can go faster'. How does that help beat the hack? It doesn't, not in any conceivable way. And why have EA hung him out to dry by refusing to confirm his excuse? He's not been cleared. Not at all...

@Oblivion9873

Жыл бұрын

@@Eat-MyGoal EA and codies are notoriously shit at communicating ANYTHING, let alone about sensitive topics. Also some of your assertions are erroneous

@NoelyNoel

Жыл бұрын

Jarno said that other F1 esports drivers knew Alvaro was doing what his statement said he was doing. I'm not sure it could be clearer than that.

@Cinkodacs

Жыл бұрын

​@@Eat-MyGoal He could have a debugger or profiler attached to the game and they could be observing exactly how the game behaves with or without the cheat at his level. That telemetry could be used to build tools that watch for something that breaks the game in a similar way (a new hack for example later on) and catch cheaters more effectively than just decompiling the current cheat. Not just a hotfix for this cheating tool but a probable solution for multiple future hacks too.

@jgbalves

Жыл бұрын

@@Eat-MyGoal I agree with you with the blank spaces in the story. BUT I must say about the "why EA hung him... etc" I would never put my hand on fire for any big company like those in gaming industry. Checkout later Ogonoskis video about devs going insane and you will see some crazy attitudes by gaming factories and employees in those gamers-producers scenarios. For me still shady the way he done it, but if eventually turns out he was speaking the truth... I wouldn't be surprise if it wasn't based in EAs evidence.

Jimmy's power level is over 9000!!!

A neutral third party like a referee with remote access to task managers would be a great way to combat it. But i'm sure there's ways to hide programs from task managers just as well.

@palemki

Жыл бұрын

We just need one neutral third party which is = anty cheat. Checking task managers wont give nothing there is to much money in this games so cheats will be better even now you have shit wirten in kernel and you cant do nothing to this.

@JustSomeDinosaurPerson

Жыл бұрын

Task manager wouldn't help because a lot of cheats hook into the game process itself and don't show up as a separate ongoing task.

@0xGRIDRUNR

Жыл бұрын

these already kind of exist, but they come with a massive flaw. you might have heard of "kernel level anticheats" and that people might not like them, but lets break down what they are: Your computer runs code at varying levels of permission. that is to say, you cant directly access the hardware of your CPU or GPU without explicit permission from the computer to do so as you can damage your operating system if you do something wrong. The kernel is the part of the computer that runs at the highest level of permission, it can do anything it wants to. Putting an anticheat at the kernel level of a computer comes with a massive upside: it can see *quite literally everything.* There isn't anything hidden from the computer at the kernel level. A kernel level anticheat is the nuclear option, the end all be all. So how could it be bad? Well if someone figures out a way to exploit the anticheat in any way, they are exploiting a program running at the highest level of permission on a computer. They would be able to do anything they wanted to with a computer with said exploit. But this also brings in the concern of what the anticheat is doing even without being exploited. We have to take the word of the anticheat that it isnt doing anything it shouldnt be, like collecting data it shouldnt, or accessing things it shouldn't be, etc. So are there other options? Absolutely! This is one of the big reasons that people don't like kernel level anticheats, there are just better ways of solving the issue. Many games have their own form of anticheat that just runs within the game itself. Forza Horizon 5 has had its own anticheat being developed (details arent really being shared, the confirmation comes from the fact that people are getting automatically banned for running cheat software) and this anticheat basically just looks for a few known programs and insta bans players for using them. Other games do stuff like ensuring that its own memory isnt being modified, or making sure that the items in your inventory arent outside the limitations of the game, or that your inputs match the resulting output, etc. also yes, you can hide programs in task managers, trojan horses are programs that specifically hide malware in known programs, so when the computer runs something that it thinks is safe, you get a virus. a task manager would only ever see the "safe" program, not the trojan horse.

@BuBornham

Жыл бұрын

@@0xGRIDRUNR I agree with all your points except for the "there are just better ways of solving the issue" point - better at blocking the cheat programs than kernel-level anticheat suites? No, they're not. That's why it's the nuclear option and why a company where the game LIVES off of the esports expectations of its product, such as Riot Games with Valorant, has opted for the kernel-level anticheat solution. It IS the best option purely for what it sets out to do - stopping cheating software, but it does come with the concerns that you outlined here (very well I might add, I don't want to sound like I'm at odds with you here). IMO, we're likely going to be stuck with kernel-level anticheat software as the chosen solution, or be stuck with cheaters finding ways around the other solutions, because that is what has happened to every other game with these issues and money on the line so far. Tarkov is going through a similar issue right now, but without the esports component, because the primary methods of cheating in the game are not able to be detected by the very nature of the cheating software itself, and the Tarkov playerbase will likely freak out about a kernel-level anticheat solution from a company based in Russia.

@pcdispatch

Жыл бұрын

You can for example inject a dll which hooks into a game. No task manager is going to help you there.

Thanks for doing this! Cheating ruined sim racing for me. It is hard to trust people out there. Big respect to those who race honest!

It basically became the eSport version of the Tour de France: the best cheat wins. The year most of them were disqualified, I ended up finishing 34th and I only went to France for a long weekend 😂

I think one of the best ways cheating has been addressed in any racing game is how Trackmania does it. The physics engine in Trackmania is deterministic, meaning it has absolutely no randomness, making it super easy for developers to quickly validate any lap(s) by running a quick simulation of them and comparing if the end time is valid or not. More games need to implement this kind of cheat protection!

@VengeanceCore

Жыл бұрын

No thats completely different, You are talking about speed runs ware people are pushing it to the absolute possible limit. These guys are not trying to beat the absolute best record of all time, they are using cheats but are still well within whats humanly possible for the most part.

Also, jarmo is real car driver. He just did not have the backing to go far. But in the race of champions he wasn’t to shabby

@Skive_67

Жыл бұрын

A pretty good one at that. Was quite good in formula Renault I believe?

@that_ls1_guy95

Жыл бұрын

@@Skive_67 i think he was average

@hammerpaw7338

Жыл бұрын

@@Skive_67 really good.

@hammerpaw7338

Жыл бұрын

@@that_ls1_guy95 he finished averagely but did not have there big backings of other competitors. Just because all the cars have the same type of parts, doesn’t make them equal

@blaine319

Жыл бұрын

@@hammerpaw7338 he was alright. it’s not like he was a top tier talent, he was consistently beaten out by his fellow countryman Richard Verschoor very convincingly from the minute they both were in the SMP F4 Championship. No real reason to back him when the other guy in his team was just better.

The most unbelievable part is how long it's taken people to realise this is happening. It's been obvious in online racing for at least 10 years. Gran Turismo 5 online lap times were ridiculous because people cut corners and got away with it, of course on PC there are backend hacks

@VeniVidiAjax

Жыл бұрын

Bugs and cheats are different things. Altering with game files is cheating

Not even related to the whole cheating incident but this is really good content Jimmer. Would 100% listen to a podcast video like this

I said it on the other video, this has been happening forever. You might be able to find the archives of the Gran Turismo forum on the IGN Vault network boards where we used to post our times before we had internet connected consoles. The same thing happened, people got greedy, lied about their submitted times (was an honor system, and before digital cameras were even common so nobody was taking pictures of their sector times). We would all submit times for a track and car combo, and inevitably, someone we knew was alien status would submit a "perfect" sector. Someone would post a slightly better lap, but they would goof and submit a sector that is half a second faster, and out themselves.

One thing that could be done is to go they way of Trackmania, where there is possible to capture the inputs of the player and replay them to produce exactly the same outcame everytime (in sim racing the conditions have to be the same as well, which should be trivial as well). Then you can replay the race someone did, and if the replay isn't the same as the gameplay played in the tournament/race etc. then it shows if there were any outside 'help' on the race.

@kilianortmann9979

Жыл бұрын

This won't work for multiplayer games, because they use client side prediction (netcode) to combat lag. That means every client has a slightly different situation, I am also not sure if F1 2022 is completely deterministic the way TM is (ie. if PF tracks would work the same way in F1)

@MoosyPineappleMan

Жыл бұрын

Can't be done with games that don't have deterministic physics, the only racing game I know of with deterministic physics is trackmania.

@Lukashoffmann94

Жыл бұрын

It is kinda strange, that only Trackmania seems to be deterministic. In theory any sim racing game should be like that, because otherwise the inconsistency just annoys the players.

@flummi6966

Жыл бұрын

@@Lukashoffmann94 Sadly it cant be. If you watch the same situation from different players,it will always be slightly different because of lag and clientside prediction.Playing a ton of Wreckfest its very clear that races with a lot of contact can only be done on one continent,for example.Clean races can be done in lower classes cross continents.

Can we just take a second to appreciate Jimmy’s interview skills? Great questions. Doesn’t interrupt his guest. So cool seeing how far he’s come!

This is a very professional interview, very well spoken and prepared jimmy! Killing it at everything you do such a joy to watch

I can't remember where the quote came from (Possibly the documentary 9.89), but I once heard someone point out that star athletes use steroids to cheat not because they want to be good at a sport, but because they are great at their sport & want to guarantee the greatest result. I'm reminded of that quote following along with the cheating issues in sim racing.

I buh, WHOO! New Outro. Completely skipped my mind until we were well into it. Lovely work Jimmer, love having your intro/outro highlight what you've been up to as of late >D!.

Jarno seems like such a genuine guy

@beautyisontheinside

Жыл бұрын

I think he also cheated and just wants to get out without any further trouble. That’s why he is always mentioning „the next game“

@amilcarsafeca7629

Жыл бұрын

@@beautyisontheinside Why do you think he cheated? His performance was severely under by his standards and it was specially because he was simply not fast enough on this specific game. Hence hes waiting for the next game where he'll prepare to come back to form. How does that mean he "also" cheated

Thomas is probably just saying "Wait till LAN" knowing that by then everyone will have forgotten and moved on (most of the internet that is) I myself am even more keen now and will eagerly anticipate it

I'd say an anti cheat verification on the server side is needed, then an auto kick, name popping up notifying all players that that driver (cheater) attempted to join the server with modified files and that doesn't meet the requirements to participate.

Jarno was born in 2000. i feel old

Jimmy Neutron and Jarno Opmeer, the combination we never knew we needed to defeat esports cheating

How unfortunate that we have this conversation. Anti cheat programs should be what devs need to work on. Also a race control ai that can analyze penalties etc would be a hit

Great video, hope things get sorted before next F1 game! I do have 1 question because in a noob: why would LAN events prevent those cheats with the small percentages?? Om very much not in the world of PC's😅

@Marnick1999

Жыл бұрын

@@kuroneko9270 Thx! Got it👍

Always good vibes from Jimmy, how does he do it

@Meloni_88

Жыл бұрын

its the hair, it must be the hair

@ChaosPootato

Жыл бұрын

@@Meloni_88 Fucking Super Saiyans, literal cheating

Personally I'm still not having it that Carreton was supposedly "testing" the hacks during a league race. Whether it's true or not, it's a bit hypocritical to defend Alvaro, but go all out on Ronhaar.

@VinnyFonseca

Жыл бұрын

I see this as an F1 e-sports driver defending their own, regardless of truth. Keep their little club protected. He was probably instructed by Mercedes to say all this rubbish, and there's no way to prove otherwise, even if that single moment caught on stream + deleting the video would be more than enough evidence to ban the guy in any other community.

@Dolek135

Жыл бұрын

@@VinnyFonseca Summed it up perfectly.

@evilsocietyHD

Жыл бұрын

Well i dont think its hypocritical, because Alvarro wherent pulling out crazy lap times at the limit of what possible in competition, so his statement is kinda credible, im not saying im sure at 100% but the probability are higher for alvarro not cheating (sry for the possible mistakes in my english, not my 1st langage)

@tbricksable

Жыл бұрын

@@evilsocietyHD alvaro is cheating, the probability is 100% since we saw it XD

@smdcuolive6700

Жыл бұрын

Not really, for one, it's really easy to disprove if Codemasters came out and said he was not testing for them. Secondly, they already knew Alvaro was testing. You are only looking at it from your perspective because you only found out during that stream. At last 7 other drivers are also involved in testing. Internally they all know who has been doing it and have known for long before it came out. It's not like they watched the video and found out the same time as you and jumping to his defence.

no need for anti cheat for the competition, just set up a PC check by a team of staff for ALL the candidates after EACH test. they did it for CS GO, on some competitions that weren't in LAN, I don't understand why nobody offers this solution.

@louisbeerreviews8964

Жыл бұрын

Wrong

In the old days of online gaming, I remember we had anti cheats that scanned all files on your PC, but even that can be worked around. It's like having a lock on your door, it doesn't make it impossible, just harder to break into your house. At the end of the day, somehow you need to have systems in place that make the risk/reward go out of favor for the cheater. There is no way to make cheating impossible, it's an endless arms race against the cheaters that you can never win.

having a system the software does a checksum when drivers log in to compete would go a long way to stamping it out. If a series of checksums were done on the actual game software it would be very hard to thwart. Also if they were able to somehow implement a complaint system where when called out the log of that particular moment could be captured and then checksum run at the end of the race. I don't know if that would be possible to capture that log but certainly you would be able to check before the race or after

This is getting more and more troublesome the longer it's going on... if Thomas does decide to respond, it'll be a good insight into his side but he might be agitated towards you Jimmy if he talks. Tread carefully I'd say. Big thanks to Jarno for his side and more importantly his clarity on the situation.

mem hacks are detectable in different ways and it baffles me that a organisation that host a event with 1mil on the line is not having any proper anti cheat in place whether this be within the game or external by logger tools. When i was involved in the simracing scene we had logger tools (made by our own programmer that was involved) that was able to detect this shit. That was over 15 years ago!!..... Just hire a proper programmer or move everything to LAN with the systems being put in a controlled environment. And yes we banned a few people from the championship that where still trying and got caught.

thank you jarno and jimmy for this talk.i hope ea and codemaster listen to the comunity.

Really liked the interview Jimmy, you are a good interviewer and I'd love to see more interviews.

Jarno Opmeer is also a comedian apparently. That wish of EA fixing F1 22''s issues in F1 23. Amazing

@pens6564

5 ай бұрын

you put EA GAMES and "FIX game" in the same sentence? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH HHSHSHHAHAHAHA, sorry, i'm laughing with respect! ... HAAAHAHAHAHAAH

Nice insight video! "Jarno and Jimmer Cooking" would be a nice video!

That's kinda scary, cause, simracing is really hard. In a lot of different perspectives, controling the cars, the competition knowing the tracks and so on. Loosing, crashing and so on is really fustrating. And imagening that there is someone that could be getting more grip or more power than I ... wow... But I got to say that I could really see this happening... a lot...

Teams needs to get more involved with actually enforcing it too, and be accountable in some way if one of their drivers get caught.

@judge81

Жыл бұрын

Unfortunately Ronhaar is with Haas and they probably like this

In essence, they need to copy the Riot games model. Extremely strong anti-cheat, LAN events using standard PCs, referees to monitor fair play. They seem to be pretty adept at protecting the competitive integrity of the game, something that is sadly lacking in modern sim titles 🙁

@BURN447

Жыл бұрын

Riots anticheat is extremely invasive. While that’s fine for pros only, it’s way too much to have to give up 24/7 root access to my own computer. LAN events are really the only possibility to stop this. No anti-cheat is unbeatable. Even Vanguard has had some cheats.

@phillewis1749

Жыл бұрын

@@BURN447 So you think that the policy of no anti-cheat is the answer then? LAN only solves the issue for competitions, it does nothing to prevent people cheating at home, which is also a problem

@lucasgamezz140

Жыл бұрын

@@phillewis1749 No, but implementing an anti-cheat, that if cracked opens up a backdoor onto your computer isn't the way to go

@JustSomeDinosaurPerson

Жыл бұрын

So long as it is a separate anti-cheat only used by the pro players instead of the main population of online, then sure. Something like ESL's anti-cheat for CS:GO. Base game shouldn't have an anti-cheat that invasive though.

@TheHadrian54

Жыл бұрын

​@@lucasgamezz140 the main concern is what happens if a shady company acquired the studio?

This makes so much sense! I quit racing in F1 leagues because I went from being pretty decent to getting obliterated in the past 2-3 years. I thought this new generation of racers are just better, and im getting old, but the massive leap in skill in such a short time did leave me scratching my head.

Great interview Jimmer. Great chat

Rfactor 1 anticheat was great. If you had a single file different from the original codes you just could watch and not race. It also showed which folder was it (for example you set a mod but not properly you would just sit whole race)

@Nicc96

Жыл бұрын

Also F1 works like that but this cheats can overcome the control of files

@pcdispatch

Жыл бұрын

There is always a way to bypass that stuff. They are just comparing checksums somewhere in the code.

Hi Jimmy, just wanted to get off topic for a sec that I love the new end credit sequence. Really shows how far you have come as a person and a racing driver. Makes me feel so glad that I've been there to whitness it all happen from my side of the world. You've been a massive inspiration for me and the reason I now have started my own youtube channel so I can share my own stories and adventures. Cheers from the Netherlands and a long time viewer/subscriber.

Man woke up and decided to cosplay as Paul Pheonix or Jacky Bryant.

Good interviewing style and skills Jimmy.

My son used to do all the sims at the car shows and races where someone like Nissan would have people try for the best time over the weekend and the winner would win an Xbox or ps4, and he won a few. There were some older kids or young adults that would fool with the equipment before their run, then they’d run a great time, then mess with the equipment again before they left. I don’t know what they did and the people that were running the booth were clueless but one of those people did win one of these at road Atlanta, by quite a bit and the times after he ran weren’t close. My son ran before and after this guy and his runs after weren’t close. People will cheat for many reasons from big money to just wanting to be the man. If there’s a way to catch a guy online then there’s a way to block someone catching them.

I think it says a lot in a bad way that the 1 team that wanted to have their driver have cheats on his pc to "test" is williams. After the daytona 24 it's not shocking, but still not a good look

The guilty bit is not showing us the convosation with EA/code saying please test our games with cheats...

Wouldnt it be a possibility to make a validation system? Every driver inputs get recorded in some sort of telemetry. And since we're in a deterministic environment, the excact same inputs should result in the exact same lap time every time. So there could be some kind of validation system where organizers can check with the telemetry from the drivers result in the same outcome. If they've modified the grip or the engine power or anything else, it would result ina different overall laptime. This would work kinda like the TAS system which was introduced in trackmania last year.

Great vid!!!! Jarno is such a good dude

Didn't know Guy Fieri was into sim racing

Nice one Jimmer - what a fantastic humble guy Jarno is

I would love to see F1 to have the same system as in trackmania, where you can replicate every lap with the same inputs(so no random factors) which would mean that in each quali lap for example you can input the same things and you should get the same lap time. This would mean that at least quali could be cheat free (i hope). The only thing that you would lose is that you don‘t have „random“ factors anymore because tyrewhere has to be calculated the same all the time

Here's my question: You know how many other games that have speedrunning communities will make use of a TAS (tool assisted speedrun) to give the community and idea of a theoretically perfect run but also to help catch cheaters. Is it possible to do like a TAS for an F1 lap, a theoretically perfect time, because that would truly settle any matter of "that time isn't possible"

@marcdoyon8840

Жыл бұрын

i think it would be a good tool to give a strong indication if a lap should be looked into further but i imagine it would turn out something like Singapore 2018 when merc's supercomputer came up with a theoretical perfect lap time and then Lewis when faster. i know its a game with set limits but you never know until you investigate

@Synapse835

Жыл бұрын

@@marcdoyon8840 true. But that 2018 lap would have been affected by real world stuff. A TAS can be used to go beyond what is physically possible for humans, thus you can draw a clear line of where a limit is

@jsteer

Жыл бұрын

What will happen like for bicycle races, is that cheaters will go just below the threshold. Everyone will be “near perfect“. Small improvement but the problem will still not be solved. The easy solution is to have all priced contests in a controlled environment.

Paul Broadbent… or Jimmy Phoenix… interviewing Porridge Cookmeer.

I never thought about how intricate cheating could be in a racing game.. A _small_ change in air pressure on your car to help mitigate aero wash, or to slightly increase it for an opponent. You would need a fundamental understanding of the entire game to notice something like that. To most people, it would simply look like a "skill issue".

Running images on a beefy server instead of using PCs should work for events. It would allow for absolute control, constant monitoring, and mean uniform performance (ideally).

Your point at the end is really what gets me. Codies F1 is the official F1 licensed game that's used for esports, there's hundreds of thousands of $$ on the line, there's no anti cheat, and people can compete from their bedroom. You'd be stupid not to cheat, I just don't understand how F1 can back this in it's current state, absolutely insane.

The best F1 eSports driver of all time. Legend.

@sandordomonkos8351

Жыл бұрын

Nahh, only 7 years...

@harry69007

Жыл бұрын

@@sandordomonkos8351 Sandor... F1 eSports has existed for 7 years.

I think you could catch subtle cheaters by using a sophisticated re-simulation program and see if the car is slower or not - based on all the inputs and setup of the driver.

Keep fighting Jarno and Jimmy, protect our esport

I was watching Thomas stream PSGL E-Series Canada, I tuned in at the end of Q3, they did a lobby restart and after Thomas joined the new lobby he said he has something in his eye, for some reason he blacked out his entire steam for 30 seconds to rub his eye...About 27 seconds in he said "let me get a tissue" 3 seconds later the stream is back with no tissue in sight, I can't think of any logical reason you would need to black out your entire stream to rub your eye, his webcam and game were blacked out separately and are not under the same scene on his OBS, it's not as if he just wanted his webcam off and that turned off the gameplay at the same time, you can see him black them both out individually, am I missing something or looking to much into it? any suggestions to why he would need to black out his stream? Sorry if this is dumb it's just with all the accusations going on this seemed odd to me.

With as much respect the community has for Jarno- and even racing drivers outside of esports- he wouldn't make these accusations without being 100% sure about them. I hope we find a way to figure this out and get the people responsible removed from the community.

Btw you gonna need event PCs and wheel setups also. Some guys could install cheats throughout steering wheels or pedals USB ports

This is exactly what the sim racing scene needed. Public pressure on the big players making 100m off these games and series alone.

I whole heartedly refuse to believe they want drivers to ''test'' this cheat to see how it works..

Jarno is by far the best sim driver ever. Fantastic video Jimmy thanks.

@pens6564

5 ай бұрын

I agree 100%! I'm just a casual player but I'm playing this f1 games since 2010 and, was funny the way how I know how is Jarno for the first time haha, I usually was always using the time trial, than I I would steal the spot from the guy who had the world record lap time on the track! and then save the car setup to use in career mode! So, after seeing this name at the top of all the fastest lap rankings I thought, who is this bastard and how did he bypass all the clues to find some shortcut? So during the pandemic or shortly after that, I saw in his first championship that he was the best driver currently active! hahaha, also, as a bonus I discovered that he was a KZreadr and made content giving tips on the game!

it's always good when i recognise the music that's being used in these videos, i love it, it's such a vibesetter ❤

@dillonrameraz7082

Ай бұрын

Do you recodgnize the outro song at all? I've been trying to find it for months.

I saw this great line about it.. The top of any given Esport game is the maybe 0.1% best players of the entire playerpool, being about to cheat just a 0.5% faster or 0.5% quicker sounds so little if you just 'happy driving laps with your controller', but in that 0.1% group its basicly the difference of being among em, or rise far above them. Yes you can dictate 'standard PCs' during real life events, but what to do with the 'remote' ones? Install trojans on their PC's checking everything? Having a referee on each of the player's home? Its like goldselling in MMO's, cheats made for a game is simply a compliment that the game done well enough to create this market.

Basically its going towards this: "to race fair in esports, dont compete in esports"