If you're impatient -----> 25:03 Frequency Response 28:42 Group Delay 38:56 Long-Term Sweeps 40:40 Total Harmonic Distortion 43:00 Even/Odd Order Distortion

@bencarignan2711

Жыл бұрын

Bless you.

More expensive than a REL No. 25 sub? Boys…please review more high end subs. This stuff is just cool. I’m a sucker for euphonic distortion so please review a modern rel when you get a chance. I’m a Rel and ML balanced force fan so I love these log reviews. Keep up the good work!

It is great to see another push pull sub. I'm still running a M&K MX-350 and it sounds fantastic!

@whatsnew8919

2 жыл бұрын

Same here awesome sub

@1997inspire

2 жыл бұрын

If the M &K's sounded so great way back in the 1990's I can imagine how this sub sounds considering the leap current subwoofer driver design has made since the M&K woofers.Also ,These two hellraiser 15 inchers should have at least six times the output of the pair of M&K 12 inchers.

@janthomassrensen1065

2 жыл бұрын

@@1997inspire M&K do still make new products, they´re not all about way back stuff. I Have an M&K X10 with 2x10" woofers and it rocks. They make make an X15Plus with 2x15", can only emagine how much output that beast produces

@Espiritiv

2 жыл бұрын

same here - Ken Krisel also has his version of this Perlisten /M&K., the DXD-12012

Great show boys. Looks like one fantastic sub. I thought of the M & K subs as well.

Love this video - great work guys.

...incredible discussion! Well done.

Same design as Miller & Kreisel. Great sub design. This may be one of the engineers that worked there. I'm currently replacing my mx-350 with two subs in the near future. Suggestions?

Jesus. I could listen to u guys all day. Perfect combination of knowledge and humour. Keep it up

Those are some amazing heavy duty curtains over Don's shoulder, I'm assuming it's for blocking light but they look more like what you'd use for your body disposal room.

I hope in some future issue you get the chance to test Augsperger or Genelec Subs. They are primarily for Pro Studio use but people also use them for Dolby Atmos

Yo James, I wasn't trolling you with that question. I have legitimate curiosities around how ported or sealed enclosures could impact even or odd harmonics. My curiosity comes directly from the physics of a resonating air column, most commonly examined as a pipe or cylinder. (I suggest we use the terminology of pipe or cylinder, instead of "tube" to avoid confusion with thermionic-valves when referring to tube-resonance) which is sad because tube is my favorite cylindrical term. So the physics of a cylinder open at both ends favors the resonance of even order harmonics, while the physics of a cylinder closed at one end favors odd order resonance. So there's layers here, where we have the port it's self as a small length of resonating air, but then the cabinet it's self with the port is a length of tube, with the driver on one side and the port open on the other I feel that would inherently resonate with more even order harmonics, while a sealed enclosure is like a cylinder open at just one end and would exhibit trends towards odd order harmonics. But part of me is confused over resonance being constructive or destructive. Like for example, If I was building a helmholz resonator for the purpose of absorption as a acoustic treatment, and I was picky and wanted to remove the odd order harmonics, would I want to resonate with them using a closed cylinder helmholz resonator? or would that accentuate the odd order? Interestingly, helmholz resonators have been found in old cathedrals, where open ended bottles are embedded in the walls, and at this same time period there was this whole thing about the tri-tone being "evil", and I wonder how related the two are. It's especially interesting in our modern context of valve amplifiers, as the colloquial claim is that even order harmonics are more euphonic, this may actually be a remnant of religious propaganda, to the point that musical scale of the church and equal-temperament was engineered to exclude compatibility with Pythagorean tuning, avoiding the Pythagorean comma, but also finding dissonance in the tritone, the Pythagoreans were vilified by the church, their symbol was the pentagram and that symbol was propagandized into a symbol of the devil. I'm not 100% sure on this, but I feel there is a connection, between the use of equal temperament and odd order harmonic dissonance. Which was a problem they attempted to cover up by slandering the tritone as something evil, or the bottles in the cathedral were to fix it, or were maybe the cause of their bias. Or even deeper, that theres a deeper insight into the workings of the mathematical universe which is ripe for the picking within the study of Pythagorean tuning and that of tritones are a doorway of insight, It was Nikola Tesla who said "if you want to understand the Universe think in terms of 3, 6 and 9" which I believe is a reference to what's called "N-harmonics" aka "harmonics of the third" or "tritone". Even our calendars are slightly messed up to keep us ignorant of astronomy and the solstices, as the church brutally persecuted all the sciences, and replaced them with their own difficult to follow systems, and I feel that may be true of musical tuning as well, it's intentionally set up to not lead you towards deeper mathematical insights. So it could very well be, that the reason we euphonically favor even order harmonics, is because all the instruments are tuned around a system that is dissonant with the mathematics of tritones and N-type harmonics. So the orchestra and the electric guitar and everything are out of tune for odd harmonics. So should I have my sub resonate with the propaganda-tuned orchestra, or with the fundamentals of the universe? I personally feel there is something to even order harmonics, and it comes from my observations of square waves, a square wave is created by stacking odd order harmonics on the fundamental, so when I look at this sub and see it only has odd order harmonics, I'm like dude that's goona square my waves man. Even and odd harmonics also distort the wave symmetry in different ways, even gives a W like repetition, while odd creates a N shape like a sawtooth (maybe related to the terminology of N-harmonics). It does appear, if the harmonics were to outshine and overpower the fundamental, the even would be closer in nature to the shape of the fundamental than the odd would be. And I feel that phenomenon is fundamental to even order euphonic. Personally I want the reverb in my room to back the fundamental tones in the music, and NOT be squared off by odd order harmonics, so I'm putting up tubes that are open on both ends of the cylinder, to resonate and strengthen the even order sound, but is that going to absorb the even order... I'm not sure. And then I would hope that my music is tuned in a way that is not a reflection of cultural genocide.

@joeyallcock1011

2 жыл бұрын

"they"(whoever they are?¿?☆) also deliberatly changed the frequencies of tones of musical notes for example: 430hz &435hz to 440hz to make tones purposly tuned to no longer be as they once were so we are unsure of the true purpose of cymatics within religious structures thats if they were even intended for religious purpose to begin with?¿?☆ But the truth often has a way of resurfacing over time!!

You dog Gene! Of course you're getting this subwoofer! What a great group. Don's experience and knowledge is freakin' amazing.

@audioholics You guys again surprise in an incredibly positive way. First of all: I never heard of Perlisten, Second: This is a really amazing walkthrough of an insane product, Third: Thanks a lot to bring Perlisten onto the radar, Fourth: Darn you guys, I may need to change subwoofers now By the way, what is the backgrounder for that "Jackson" thing?

@Audioholics

2 жыл бұрын

Look up Jackson from 1980s Bloodsport movie. That's Don Dunn ;) kzread.info/dash/bejne/oKKVscShaLHJmbQ.html

@HaraldMacGerhard

2 жыл бұрын

@@Audioholics Don Dunn is one of the coolest guys 😎🤗

@PoesAcoustics

2 жыл бұрын

If you get serious, talk to me. Im a dealer. The whole reason I didn’t review these products is that I have an inherent conflict of interest. But that doesn’t mean I can’t provide detail and knowledge about the technical merits of the product. I sell them because they are among the very best. It’s not cheap and yet it’s a value. Their subs are truly some of the best on the market for any cost.

5:27 it reminds me of an m&k that I saw around 1990's at small local hi-fi shop. $9k £8k they can keep it. I keep my JBL cinema 18".

@chrisharpe7736

2 жыл бұрын

Will stick with the M&K MX-5000 bought used. Still a great, very musical sub, that may not play as loud as some of the newest subs, but can blend with any speaker I've paired with it. Super flexible and with a processor to adjust crossover and distance very capable of being dialed in to work with small M&K satellite speakers and even with Acoustat Model 3s. Agree, at $9k in today's economy, better off putting that money into your home, or something that isn't so easily devalued. At least wait a couple of years and buy one used. Ken Kreisel is building subs again too. Dual 12" push-pull is $3k and 2 for $6k. May be better off buying 2 of Ken's subs for better room balance than a single $9k design that may only sound good at a single location? Worth consideration.

Just for your information, there are many heavy uber car audio drivers that have 32mm - 36mm linear xmax's @ 70%Bl. Fi, Pride, B2, Sundown, Crossfire, deafbonce, etc. They all use 10" (and above in some cases) spiders. Love the vid. Xx

@PoesAcoustics

2 жыл бұрын

We know. But those don’t exist in home audio. Many of those car subs also have problems. Very serious induction problems. The home audio subwoofers favor SQ over SPL so minimizing induction is key. Those high induction motors produce a lot of distortion. As a point of comparison, one of the other subs I am intimately familiar with is the JTR and RTJ line. That driver is very similar to those car subs but has a far more linear motor. It has less than 1mh of inductance. That ensures very low distortion.

When a woofer cone moves forward it cups the air.Moving backwars it parts the air.Hence there are different aerodynamics in both directions., this produces two somewhat different half waves.Push-pull configuration helps by evening out these two anomalies

@FOH3663

2 жыл бұрын

The 28 foot wavelength of 40hz energy propagating in your room, renders driver shape of little consequence. The theoretical advantages of the Push-Pull approach are achieved via nulling of asymmetrical characteristics of the inward stroke, compared to the outward stroke. These asymmetries exist both electrically and mechanically. Electrically, the inward stroke differs from the outward stroke. Mechanically, the soft parts possess differences in the inward stroke compared to the outward stroke. The Push-Pull approach nulls whatever differences exist. That said, high performance drivers minimize these differences. There are potential downsides to Push-Pull, driver self noise in basket out examples,... as well as potential advantages of heat dissapation in basket out examples.

At 1:21:30 about, you guys asked if there was a sub with more than 30mm cone excursion in commercial realm. Have you looked at the Cerwin-Vega 18in Stroker woofer?

It is great to see James on this video!

I bought a pair of Rhythmik F18's and I can't believe how small the enclosure is compared, but incredible output

@Espiritiv

2 жыл бұрын

Dont hear Audioholics talk about Rythmik much lately. WHY! I wish they reviewed all of their stuff as much as they do SVS, or even Monoprice.

@wking8

2 жыл бұрын

@@Espiritiv From what I've heard Rythmik doesn't send out review units, which seems wild to me

@Espiritiv

2 жыл бұрын

@@wking8 some of these guys are drinking $500 bourbons so maybe they should pay for some and resell them after a good trial. I'm sure they would break even if they got dealer prices

@wking8

2 жыл бұрын

@@Espiritiv All I know is my Rythmiks are the best bass sound quality I have ever experienced. It's not even close.

@joemarz2264

Жыл бұрын

@@Espiritiv Rythmik was replaced by Monolith in their preferences.

One hell of a Sub. You get what you pay for. Keep it up guys! By the way Gene, i have been following audioholics since 2014 using this and my other YT account and I havent seen or heared you guys review REL subs. Though it has been reviewed by many audiophiles, the thing is i am still not convinced that they are good until you reviewed them. Lol Because i believe in your data analysis. You have all the equipment and knowledge to bench test every audio equipment in this field. So I wonder if you will ever review RELs in the future? Thanks and more power to the channel!

Nice information thanks. I have 4x DIY 15" rockford fosgate power subs with crest audio 8001. I can get 20hz-100hz flat, im happy. Just wondering what is the best oem sub driver and power now that you can buy? Thanks

Don that Platoon painting is sick. Best war movie of all time imo.

I have the D215S and D15S and very very happy. These subwoofers are not for everyone. The bass difference from my previous SVS PC-4000’s is very noticeable. That is why other brands exist.

@divertiti

6 ай бұрын

Can you describe the difference?

@bkrhino1

6 ай бұрын

I had triple SVS PC-4000’s at first. I sold one PC-4000 with the intention of having the D215S in the front right corner and the dual PC-4000’s as nearfield. Since both brands have apps, I turned each down and played different movie clips and music. The D215S was so tight and just noticeably cleaner. I ran the PC-4000’s in enhanced and sealed mode and the bass was not as smooth / sharp. It is just another level of bass that I experienced firsthand. I sold the two remaining PC-4000’s and purchased a D15S for nearfield.

JTR 4000 dual 18” subwoofer has low distortion as well

@PoesAcoustics

2 жыл бұрын

I love JTR and I love Jeff. These are even lower in distortion than what we saw on the RS1. I would love to see the distortion of the newest sub he developed. I measured it outside so I can see what we got, but it was a noisy environment so it may not have been fully accurate. This sub has some inherent advantages over other subs on the market because of its design. It naturally canceled 2nd order distortion causing them to be nearly unmeasurable. The drivers are highly linear so even the odd order is low. The JTR uses a very linear driver, but doesn’t have the even order cancelation benefit. So it’s even order distortion should be an order of magnitude higher. But of course, the JTR going to be multiple orders of magnitude below it’s typical completion. The Perlisten is just next level.

A 9K sub... I suspect the diminishing returns as to performance for $ kicks in hard here, but no doubt it sounds great and it looks great too! I'd love to hear that sub some time.

@divertiti

6 ай бұрын

Not at all, diminishing returns don't start untill $15K

How do you hide the perlisten speakers in a HT where the speakers are hidden? They seem have an odd port setup.

Good job

What is the fastest sub you’ve ever measured? I need a lighting fast sub to integrate with my Maggie’s. Thinking rel, rythmik servos, or open baffle subs from gr research.

Have you heard the Rel 25? How do they compare with the Perlisten 215s?

I am looking for a good sub to pair with my Yamaha 5000's. this one looks good to me, thanks for bringing my attention to it. i wonder when it will be available to order in the USA?

@themaskedsingercucucachu8225

2 жыл бұрын

OOPS, its made in China... i don't support product made in China until they stop forced labor in their factories. Made in FREE countries is crucial to me.

@thefrator5275

Жыл бұрын

@@themaskedsingercucucachu8225 I'm the same way. Was really excited for Perlisten products but found out they're made in China

Not sure how to ask this but does the sealed cavity get pressurized from both subs… they both fire inward at the same time or when one fires in the cavity the other fires out the sealed cavity? So its push pull in mounting but not push pull in action…. the sealed cavity doesnt have relative constant pressure?

MK Sound has a new THX Dominus rated sub coming out in 2022 the X15+. Dual push pull 15 ‘s

Can you guys do a video on what group delay is?

The D215s subs seem to be legit - positive reactions everywhere. I had heard fantastic things about Magico subs...was very surprised to hear the very negative reactions here. I am particularly fond of the Magico S-Subs.

Tried my best to 'get' the 'Newton's Cradle' analogy but I just cannot see the connection at all, esp when the 2 drivers are having a braking effect upon each other via the internal air cushon & a 'Newtons Cradle' just shows the conservation of energy. Still, it was more fun than a crossword or a math puzzle.

After almost a year that this video has been put out, and I've now heard a pair of these and a pair of Rythmik g25s. For theatre thump I'll take these but for accuracy/musicality I'll take the Rythmiks. Not that I have money for either.

Do you guys have any plans on comparing REL subs, SVS with the perlisten higher end subs?

@Audioholics

2 жыл бұрын

We've already reviewed every current SVS subwoofer. REL doesn't make a subwoofer that competes with the Perlisten.

@CanadaSocial

2 жыл бұрын

@@Audioholics Thanks guys. Maybe I missed something on your website. I was specifically looking at the REL No 25 and the the 212/SX and comparing them to the D215. I saw only a demo results page on your site for No 25 and dont see the 212/SX. Anyways to clarify, are you saying that both these wont compare to the Perlisten Sub's and the Perlisten subs are definitely a better investment? If yes, I will go for the Perlisten. Cheers!

The rich invest their money and spend what is left. The poor spend their money and invest what is left"

@cynthiawilliams9520

2 жыл бұрын

Doing nothing is much easier than making money decision, as investment always beat cash

@tallickpaul4320

2 жыл бұрын

I understand the fact that tomorrow isn't promised to anyone, but investing today is a hard thing to do for me because I have no idea of how and where to invest in?

@reuscann8171

2 жыл бұрын

What a small universe as I'm suprise to see Mr MICHAEL WAYNE mentioned here, My spouse recommended him to me after investing £4000 and he has really helped us in this time of lockdown in australia due to covid19

@andersonjohn6388

2 жыл бұрын

Money is always eager and ready to work for anyone who is already to employ it, I was able to withdraw my profit of $17,000 after investing $3,500 with Mr Michael Wayne platform some days ago

@ericdonald4013

2 жыл бұрын

Please do you mind sharing any means of reaching out to him easily? I'm really interested I believe this is genuine

Devialet phantoms have 3.5mm input. Is it possible to use them as subwoofers using this 3.5mm input? These devialets have lower frequency response than most subs.

So I purchased the D215s after watching this video. But how come you don’t have any reviews of the REL subwoofers. I don’t find them in the excel sheet for subwoofers too. The D215s is in there and it was updated in September this year. Is REL selling snake oil?

I am torn between the REL no 25 and the Perlisten D215. What do you recommend

@vicentepostiganogueira3258

Жыл бұрын

Or the new Rel 32

Thank you guys kKanaris Cyprus

Too bad PSA doesn't make the S7201 anymore for you to test. Quad 18s push pull. Of course there is their S42ipal. Dual opposing 21s. Or any of the PSA subs would be interesting to see tests on. I know I love mine, but I have the older S3000i pair and XS-30se

@PoesAcoustics

2 жыл бұрын

They have been uninterested in allowing third party testing. We’ve offered. I’ve never heard back.

M&K was doing the push/pull design subwoofer 30 yrs ago.

@PoesAcoustics

2 жыл бұрын

We know! Same guy! Dan developed that sub for M&K and reimagined it here. We aren’t suggesting this is the first P-P sub. Far from it. But it’s the best iteration yet.

@johnstuartsmith

2 жыл бұрын

@@PoesAcoustics I bought 2 M&K push-pull subs with OK cabinets for cheap, because everything else was ratty. I took out the electronics, replaced all 4 of the 12 inch drivers, and I drive them stacked in a corner with a hefty stereo amp, EQ'd off my AV processor. There is a lot to be said for having a large amount of driver area launching the larger waves of sound. Small subwoofers can go make "boom" sounds, but big ones produce a much more convincing "thud". I've wondered how more power, bigger cabinets and bigger and better drivers would do, and I'm happy someone is proving that more and bigger and better is indeed better.

@PoesAcoustics

2 жыл бұрын

@@johnstuartsmith absolutely. There is no replacement for displacement. And making a driver larger means it doesn’t need to move in and out as much to displace the same air. Big subs have a much easier time producing bass. Im lucky to have the ability to hear a lot of subs and to a point where even a 12” sub seems small to me. I can say without reservation that 15”, 18”, 21”, and even 24” all sound even better when well implemented. The problem is that things just get big. It’s hard to deal with a 24” subwoofer and cabinet. Even if it’s an awesome sub. There are other technical challenges. Designing a 24” driver with a 1mh or less voice coil is very difficult and so some of these larger drivers have such high inductance that distortion becomes a concern. Jeff with RTJ audio just introduced a new 18” driver with less than 1mh of inductance. It means you get high power handling, long excursion, a lot of displacement, but also mow distortion. It’s impressive. I am not sure the inductance in this driver, I would have to ask Dan. Whatever it is, the proof is in the measurements. We’ve never measured lower distortion. I’ll be analyzing the RTJ later today to see how it did. But I didn’t collect complete data on it, so may not be comparable.

So which ones? A pair of D215s? Or a pair of RBH 21-SF/R 21" Subwoofers? You mentioned in another vid that the RBHs were the "new benchmark".

So what I found there is a D215s subwoofer Manufacture is Perlisten Cost says 8995

Love you guys! Xx

How does the RTJ 18" and this sub compare/contrast? The RTJ is said to have super low distortion as well!

@Audioholics

9 ай бұрын

Good question we intend to find out the answer to. RTJ 18 is a seriously great sub.

That's a beastly looking subwoofer. I'm curious as to how the Funk Audio 21.0LX would compare?

@PoesAcoustics

2 жыл бұрын

Likely much higher distortion and a bigger box. But the Funk is probably going to have a bit more output in the very deep bass. That motor has a good bit of inductance so I don’t think it would have more output in the midbass range. But…I couldn’t be sure until I test it. Which I would love too.

@roccobruno8027

2 жыл бұрын

@@PoesAcoustics Thank you for your prompt response.

Interesting no mention of Ken Kresiel who went on after M&K and designed new speakers and subs , the DXD12012 sub uses a push pull designed and got great reviews for accuracy and low distortion. Rythmik uses servo tech and again has low distortion as well.

@Audioholics

2 жыл бұрын

We've tested Rythmik subs and they do well but NOT this well. Ken never reached out to us for reviews and I wasn't even aware he was still in business but we'd be happy to check them out.

@fwabble

2 жыл бұрын

@@Audioholics Really surprised you have never heard of the KK DXD 12012 - it was definitely on my list for a while but I THINK it had some hate due to the tuning. I'm of the mind sub 20hz bass comes at a great price - either £ or accuracy.

@jackmehoff1832

2 жыл бұрын

Ken has new speakers and subs he sells in the UK. Not available in the US. Also the President of Perlisten is the former President of MK Sound. MK Sound also has a new THX Dominus rated dual 15 inch push pull sub coming out. Called the X15+

What do you recommend now as a replacement for M&K THX speakers?

@JJTeam-yr6tb

2 жыл бұрын

Wondering the same thing because I like M&K but sometimes I think there's something better out there.

@PoesAcoustics

2 жыл бұрын

Perlisten is my answer. It’s in the same nature but better in every way. Superior drivers and superior measurements. They also play way louder. Both Dan and Lars worked for or with M&K, which should tell you something.

It's the same push pull configuration as the MK Subwoofers.

Have you all ever heard Rythmik subs? I wonder how this compares to the Rythmik G25hp which is less than half the price.

Seems like the 2 drivers are causing an air-brake controll over each other's excursions via the internal air cushion in this sub's arrangement of 2 drivers, while an isobaric arrangement keeps a constant air pressure behind the outer driver only, the one you can see, but the box's internal air cushion in an isobarik arrangement acts as if there's only one driver. Gosh, it's harder to work out than I first thought it would be.

@chokechange

3 ай бұрын

So the does the action of both drivers produce squeezing of the enclosed air space?

For that price you can buy twelve Monolith 12 THX Ultras, with equally nice looking group delay.

@DonnieDorko477

2 жыл бұрын

Enjoy your room full of subs.

@BL-yj2wp

Жыл бұрын

I‘m not sure one could fit that many subs in a room :)

What subwoofer is this? It doesn't say it in the title or description. It sounded like James said it was the Prolisten d215s but that brings up no results on Google. Edit: Figured it out. It is the "Perlisten D215s."

@Audioholics

2 жыл бұрын

bit.ly/3CvO5S1

what a Sub-story....now in tears

I pressed the buy it now button but I see no way to see a price or how to actually buy it or their other stuff?

It's kind of how Polk Audio did they cheap tower speaker $210 one one of the speakers is a flat speaker which is like basically an innerspeaker

hey guys, have you tested any open baffle subs?

Someone at 3am on a Sunday morning... "Honey, you hear that!? Is that an earthquake, plane crash, the 2nd coming? Go back to bed dear. It's just James testing and Push-Pull Subwoofer for Gene." :-) James is also spot on that we "screwed ourselves" by setting/believing one sub would be sufficient. If you are building any system, even stereo, please, please plan for 2 subs.

I wonder why power sound audio stopped making push pull subs

In the Stream was about the most accurate woofer, why Rhythmik audio or Merovinger from Germany is not considered the one is to make adjustment with the signal and readjust accordingly

Hi Gene, I can remember you have interviewd a person one of the high end audio show. That was his first audio show. He had white single driver floor standing speaker. It was a europe brand. You are the only person who interviewd him. I cannot find that youtube clip. Can you remember the brand?

@Audioholics

2 жыл бұрын

was it with a wood cone or something? And was it an editorial or a YT video?

@shemaya4979

2 жыл бұрын

@@Audioholics it was a white colour single driver floorstander. You interviewd him and it was not a room. It was an open area.

Reminds me of the Monitor Audio FB212 isobaric sub.

@PoesAcoustics

2 жыл бұрын

Not a similar design. This isn’t an isobaric subwoofer. This is a push pull sub. I am going to keep saying it until folks start to get the difference. It’s not a minor distinction. Completely different mode of operation.

@ben23a31

2 жыл бұрын

@@PoesAcoustics well alrighty then.

Isobaric is used to halve the box size among other things.

@PoesAcoustics

2 жыл бұрын

Yup. But this isn’t an isobaric sub.

@greggcheap6208

2 жыл бұрын

@@PoesAcoustics Yes, I know. I was trying to help explain it better than it was in the video.

@PoesAcoustics

2 жыл бұрын

@@greggcheap6208 yeah we really didn’t explain it in the video. We weren’t intending to talk about it. It’s a totally different thing. Isobaric loading double the moving mass and halves the compliance. You can do the same thing in the driver. Personally I don’t see a good reason to do isobaric loading in today’s world. That design approach made sense back when it was developed. But today we can just customize the driver to meet the same requirements. Isobaric also has the drawback of potentially increasing distortion instead of reducing it. I am tempted to cover this in a separate livestream. Or maybe do something on various driver loading in general.

@greggcheap6208

2 жыл бұрын

@@PoesAcoustics I concur, however, with say a older less expensive woofer with a rather large VAS it doesn't hurt.

In one of your previous videos about setting up subwoofers and room acoustics, he said the subwoofer should be level matched at 75db for home theater, so why would it matter much than a lot of these subwoofers can hit 120dbs?

@ASJC27

2 жыл бұрын

The 75 db level matching is only to calibrate all of the speakers/subs to the same level during setup. It’s not the playback level that you’re going to listen at (that can be whatever you choose, provided the system can deliver). In fact, the THX reference standard demands that the subs be able to hit peaks of 115db, so if your sub can’t hit that, you can’t listen at the intended level. Personally, I think that who ever came up with this reference level is out of his mind. I rarely listen louder than 10db below that. Reference level feels like I’m going to lose my hearing in no time, but that is the standard nonetheless.

@PoesAcoustics

2 жыл бұрын

As noted, the setup level has nothing to do with the dynamic output needed. In fact, the new standard may require another 5 dB if headroom to handle the bass management of the atmos channel speakers. In commercial setups, the proper Dolby setup would have LCR speakers capable of 105dB each at the listening position. The sub would need to handle their bass and so headroom is added to the sub channel to deal with that. That’s 115dB. The surround channels now need to be full range. So they need to hit 105dB as a group and usually you have surround subs. However you can (as we do in residential setups) simply bass manage all speakers to a single LFE channel and small group of subs. Remember, the channels are all full range. So imagine the bass output the movie intended if you have 5 channel groups blasting at 105dB each. That’s 119dB. Hence 120 being the new suggested standard.

@rynev3392

2 жыл бұрын

@@PoesAcoustics so LCR is a group, atmos is a group, and surround LR and back LR is all one group, what other groups are left that you’d classify as a group? I’m about to setup a focal 5.1.2 system(up firing speakers on the towers) and I’m still trying to figure out how many subwoofers to buy

@PoesAcoustics

2 жыл бұрын

@@rynev3392 not quite. The LCR are separate. So each left, center, and right must achieve 105dB at the seating position to be considered reference level. The surround speakers of the bed layer are treated as one group. Atmos as another.

@rynev3392

2 жыл бұрын

@@PoesAcoustics okay I think I got it now. So I hear a lot of people say they think reference level is too loud and listen around -15 to -10 on the receiver. Does that mean that they’ll have 10 or 15db of additional headroom to turn up the subwoofer?

Don where did you get that Sgt Barnes painting? Platoon greatest war movie of all time. "Death what y'all know about death"

probably nice subs for a very high end set up when you need extremely high accuracy to match extremely accurate speakers. The price puts it out of range for most people as you could get 4 good SVS subs for around the same price and would not be compromising much.

@Audioholics

2 жыл бұрын

Or you could get 4 of these and have the very best bass in the world ;)

@hj8607

2 жыл бұрын

@@Audioholics but not enough left for some much needed AudioQuest $$$ cables .

try step function... which is fastest to rise and fall..

Budget accurate? SVS ?

19:14 "You know like, James, Matt, Gene... People I respect... mentally." 💪😅 Gene's like: "WTF dude?! I lift?!" 😐

@_Chev_Chelios

2 жыл бұрын

He said: “people I respect immensely“.

@viperracing2889

2 жыл бұрын

@@_Chev_Chelios You're right. My bad. 😛

Aren’t MK subs from many decades ago similar?

i never found the best setting for yamaha htr 2071, is my avr too cheap. and the sound of the subwoofer that always makes a sound louder than the surrounding sound, my subwoofer, yamaha ns sw050. I set the volume at 50%, and all crossover I set to 80hz. and my surround sound, yamaha ns p150. my room is 10x10 feet, thank you,🙏

@chrisharpe7736

2 жыл бұрын

Start with checking that your speakers are connected to the receiver and speakers properly. Mainly your focus is on polarity. Make sure that positive is connected to the positive terminals and negative to negative. If your main speakers are out of phase it will cause everything to sound "off". After confirming that everything is properly wired adjust the volume/input on the back of the sub. You need to check the sub out level on the receiver too. Yamaha recommends starting with the sub's volume at about 50% (12 o'clock) and then make adjustments to your liking from there. You may also have to reposition/relocate the sub. The room may be emphasising a particle frequency in that location. Corners emphasize bass. Audioholics has videos for figuring out where to place the sub if you can't get it dialed in using the receiver or sub's volume control. May also have to set the distance for your speakers and sub in order to adjust the timing. Bass travels slower than high frequencies, but also farther. Auto room correction is pretty good, but not perfect. Usually good enough that most won't notice a small imperfection in this area. Last thing to consider and possibly the first thing to consider is, 80 Hz isn't a rule for crossover setting. If you have very small satellite speakers they likely require a 120 Hz to 200 Hz setting to blend them with the sub. If you have tiny speakers start at 120 and go up. You may be fighting a drop out between 80 Hz and 120 to 200 Hz. This can make low frequencies stand out even more and draw attention to the sub and cause the other speakers to sound thin, or out of balance. Hope these tips help get you going in the right direction. Happy listening!

@chrisharpe7736

2 жыл бұрын

Looking at your speakers, I'd recommend at least 120 Hz crossover point. You can play with +/- settings, but those have very small woofers and are very inefficient too. Use your speaker level setting adjustments to blend the sub with your mains. May need to reduce the sub level by 6 dB (-6 dB) to get it smoothed out.

@chrisharpe7736

2 жыл бұрын

Your AVR is okay. I'd start with replacing your speakers. That's where you're going to benefit the most. The sub isn't great, but the most bang for the buck is getting more effecient, larger speakers, and then upgrading around them. Polk Audio will be a good upgrade from your current speakers. Even Sony offers speakers that you can find new at Best Buy that will be an improvement. Yamaha offers much better receivers than speakers. Look at Craig's List (or Facebook marketplace if you're on that forum) or check out some thrift stores for used speakers. Here to help if you have questions.

@luluanwar5601

2 жыл бұрын

@@chrisharpe7736 thank you for the time and knowledge you provide🙏, very useful tips. considering my speakers are very small, I've set the crossover to 120Hz to 200Hz, 200Hz sounds better, is this reasonable? the sub sounds finer in detail and balanced between the front speakers and the subwoofer, but I lost detail in the center speaker and the surround is a bit smaller, do I need to calibrate again? And the sub level I set at (-6dB) almost no sound from the subwoofer, crossover position at 120hz. Room 10x10 For the L/R front, I set it at 7.8 feet center, I set 7.6 feet surround L/R I set 3.8 feet my subwoofer set 6.8 feet And my seat is 2.5 feet from the back wall. The rear speaker to the side wall is 2 feet. For measurements, I took the distance from the wall to the speaker cover 12cm. From the speaker cover, then I pulled the meter to the seat. The most complicated thing for me, when it comes to determining the subwoofer. Considering the subwoofer cable which is only 3 meters coaxial. Right now I'm just focusing on finding a good speaker/subwoofer for this AVR. If there are tips on polk recommendations, other Sony/models, what series should I take. Soundbar/similar. Thank you for your kindness🙏..

@chrisharpe7736

2 жыл бұрын

@@luluanwar5601 glad you're making progress. 200 is reasonable considering the main speakers. Your description of the lack of clarity is somewhat predictable due to the higher crossover point with the subwoofer. If your AVR has an equalizer for the center channel you may be able to overcome the lack of clarity. A boost to the 2.5 kHz to 4 kHz range may remedy the loss of definition and clarity. If you don't have an equalizer then perhaps try. 140 Hz or 160 hz (if available for the xover). For main replacements Polk R30 ($100 used) and R50 ($150 used) are good value tower speakers and don't take up a tremendous amount of space. Monitor 40 or 40 ii ($160) direct from Polk's outlet., T15 Monitor 30 or R10 are nice sounding bookshelf speakers that are usually a decent value, but if you need stands the towers are the better value. Usually woofers are good, but watch for low output or non-working tweeters. The RTi are some of the more fragile I've had to replace. Buying used is a little bit of a gamble, but can also be rewarding if you don't pay a lot. Also just about any Polk is going to be better and more natural sounding than the current Yamaha speakers. From Sony the SSCS5 is about $120 and can be on sale for $75 to $100 a pair. $75 is usually a Novemeber price. You may be able to find a pair used. They're nice sounding speakers and not as large as the Polk Audio. Sony also has a tower version of that speaker the SSCS3 ($160). May find an open box for less. Any of these speakers will allow you to drop the crossover back down to 80 Hz, but the sub may not add to the quality and may add very little quantity with towers. Not familiar with current sound bars, but there are some decent and some duds. I usually look at the negative reviews to find out if there are quality issues, or if they just sound bad. For center channel try to find a matched speaker for the brand with the same type of drivers. There is a lot of information produced by the center channel so it really is pretty important to get one that has clear dialogue. If you can find a single bookshelf speaker it can be used as a center channel turned on its side. If you have any other questions, or thoughts, let me know. Glad to assist.

James you need to check out peerless STW 350 it’s the best sub driver

@jameslarson2277

2 жыл бұрын

I know of it. Very nice driver for a smaller sealed enclosure that needs good deep bass output. The problem is that it is heavy so you need tons of power to get good mid-bass output. The Perlisten driver has the deep bass ability but it's also quite sensitive so it can hit high SPLs in mid-bass without any problem.

@anandshah71

2 жыл бұрын

@@jameslarson2277 oh I thought THX certification is only needed to work in under 100hz and subs don’t do midbass I am still learning 🙏🏻 Hypex FA 502 at 1000 watts enough to drive and my mini theatre sealed per set around 1000$ is no brainer and I have 2 as stereo. Hypex nCore bass I don’t know if u have experienced it’s incomparable and I have tried pascal ice and class Ab. Also I took diy route cause open hardware easy fir support 8k 1 sub vs 2k $ dual 15” in small sealed open system easily supportable only thx not certified dual 15” STW will blow the 8k sub hands down I can’t make a Ferrari or iphone but can make a superb no compromise sub no big deal

Still like my M&K Mx150

Yes, 9K

This subwoofer looks a lot like the JL audio W6v3.

@Coronado-nz7wu

2 жыл бұрын

Which I believe is still the most accurate car sub I’ve ever heard.

4 sundown 18 160 db

One would think this audience is adequately savvy that merely stating "push-pull small sealed" would suffice.

Someone answer me asap how does this compare in total to the funk audio lfe 24 ultra?

@PoesAcoustics

2 жыл бұрын

It’s very likely to have much lower distortion. The Funk is probably going to play a good bit louder. But without direct comparison data we couldn’t say for sure.

@BIGBASSSAMA_4

2 жыл бұрын

@@PoesAcoustics u say a bit louder but it's a 24 inch driver wouldn't it make it be fact I rather have a louder system than just a little less distortion and I bet (kinda speaking like a fanboy) you can't REALLY hear any distortion compared at high volume levels over 115db playing music and movies and halo infinite

@PoesAcoustics

2 жыл бұрын

@@BIGBASSSAMA_4 it would be a good bit louder. Probably about 10dB louder. Your comment on distortion is inaccurate speculation. Distortion doesn’t become less audible at high volume levels. No such phenomena exists. The value of the lower distortion is up the the listener ultimately. These aren’t really similar products. You would clearly need at least two of the Perlisten subs to equal a sealed 24” sub of this caliber. That funk audio sub is ported and huge. Different markets.

@BIGBASSSAMA_4

2 жыл бұрын

@@PoesAcoustics I wonder what's stopping them from making a 10k watt monster with this accuracy

@PoesAcoustics

2 жыл бұрын

@@BIGBASSSAMA_4 market. All of this stuff is scalable. I’ve talked to Dan about it before. He could build an 18” driver based in the same approach and put a pair of those in a big ported cab with a 10k amp. Maybe 2 people would ever buy it. There are companies that cater to really big high output subwoofers. Perlisten isn’t trying to be that. These are not meant to be output monsters. They are meant to be very linear. That’s their focus.

Can this subwoofer be placed on its side?

What I find interesting as since this is mostly engineering this setup will definitely get cheaper.

@stopthefomo

2 жыл бұрын

Possibly but high quality 15” drivers require volume production to drop further in price and most consumers do not want bigger than 10” drivers

@dilbyjones

2 жыл бұрын

@@stopthefomo it's all contingent on someone buying the darn things. They are wonderful. Also I think custom integration is where it's at.... So...

What about WHISE subwoofers which THX used. Also Neville Thiele (Thiele/Small) owned a pair. He said best sub ever.

@PoesAcoustics

2 жыл бұрын

I don’t believe that company is even around anymore. But I would wager these are better. Those are a fairly old design. Driver tech has advanced a lot.

@RowanTasmanian

2 жыл бұрын

@@PoesAcoustics G'day Matthew, thanks for responding. I'm currently building 4 prototypes of the Whise using modern materials (no MDF) Also working with original driver manufacturer (Michail Barabasz). We have totally updated driver materials and specs. The only reason I got involved was I heard a pair of Whise which astounded me and wondered with some updating what they would be capable of. They will be made in small numbers and when we are out of Lockdown due to Covid 19 Melbourne will do full lab testing. Also revamping port design and even though the box dimensions will remain the same, everything else is being totally updated. The new Whise will be sold for music, preferably not home theatre as most competent subwoofers do HT well. Music (classical etc)is where I find normal Subwoofers struggle. Whise isn't dead, it just went "walkabout" for a while. Regards Rowan

@PoesAcoustics

2 жыл бұрын

@@RowanTasmanian that’s good to know. If they go into production, we would be happy to provide third party testing if interested to see how they perform by modern standards. I wasn’t sure if the company was still around. It appeared like nothing had been updated in decades. In this industry that’s not usually a good idea. I will just add that I am not sure I agree that most subwoofers do movies well. A competent sub is a competent sub. If it isn’t doing music well it isn’t doing movies well either. In fact, if anything, the opposite tends to be true. Movies have far more dynamic range and bandwidth than most music. Most musical recordings can be reproduced by pretty modest subwoofers.

@RowanTasmanian

2 жыл бұрын

@@PoesAcoustics Thanks Matthew. I appreciate your offer of the 3rd party testing. I'll keep you updated on developments. Regards Rowan Smith.

Ever heard of isobaric loading, it is not kind of complicated, James.

"Missing Fundamental", Legato Link? ;)

worlds most accurate subwoofer has always been the "MOREL ULTIMO"

@PoesAcoustics

2 жыл бұрын

Not even in the ballpark.

I will stick to my Rel sub for now as I cant afford $6000 for a sub!

60 bz

Don’t they use that missing fundamental trick to roll off the base for late night listening so you still hear the bass but your significant other or neighbors don’t?

A 50" sub requires you to use a cargo container as an enclosure.

.,.,AMAZON: Yep, I bought a ton on the dip. Amazon invested $14 billion in the last quarter alone, the same as it spent in 6 months before that. It is a do not sell stock. ...With the Delta virus coming at full speed ahead, pandemic sales will make a comeback. Amazon is investing so much money, that no competitor will ever be able to catch up. Amazon's not going anywhere so I know that eventually it will come back. Fidelity considers Amazon as a large growth company (probably because as big as it is, it still only has 7% of the retail market) Get on board or be runover, it's up to you.

M&K has used this design for ages, that configuration often drops efficiency by 3db, it also lets the woofers behave like a single driver in twice the enclosure volume in terms of frequency response. Isobaric literally means constant pressure. You guys are killing me with your isobaric guesses, I can't stand it anymore. It IS an Isobaric design by definition. Google it for Christs sake. Doesn't matter which way the drivers face, woofers mounted in an isobaric configuration are wired to be in phase and the reason the enclosure is rather small IS BECAUSE IT'S an ISOBARIC design! You guys are killin' me. Isobaric designs were popular in the eighties before driver manufacturers learned how to design for small enclosures with long excursion and a low 3db down point loaded in a room or a vehicle while still handling a butt load of power.

@noncog1

2 жыл бұрын

This sub isnt iso, jsyk :)

For 9K..... that leaves out 99.99% of the population and someone that can afford it will think twice...before buying it.

@TheGregWallace

2 жыл бұрын

@@Roof_Pizza I would not buy a Ferraris I'm smarter than that.

@TheGregWallace

2 жыл бұрын

@@Roof_Pizza They are sold out because they only made 5 of them.

@stopthefomo

2 жыл бұрын

Million dollar mansions are filled with expensive things 99.9% of the population won’t buy. Trinnov and Storm cost over $15,000 for their cheapest receiver, pretty acoustic treatment cost $500 per square foot, and the list goes on. This product was never designed for the masses, nor is Magico or Wilson, etc

@PoesAcoustics

2 жыл бұрын

This is affordable to a larger group than you think. Given that I am selling them and I’ve sold a fair amount in 2 months. I know their incomes. They are the .01%. Not even the 1%. Some people prioritize different things. If you make $200-$300k a year and happen to be older, you can have a good bit of savings. Or maybe you are retired, have a good pension, and don’t need anything else.

@TheGregWallace

2 жыл бұрын

@@PoesAcoustics good for you. The sad thing is....those .01% do not even know what they are listening for....it's all for show.

is it a sealed sub?

@Audioholics

2 жыл бұрын

Yes

What is the brand name? Doesn't say anywhere on your video..

@Audioholics

2 жыл бұрын

www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-reviews/perlisten-d215s

@dihydrotestosterone

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the fast reply 👍

Why does no one Bench test subwoofers as follows: 1) Bare driver (no enclosure) optically measure cone position. 2) Apply a DC electrical current to lift cone to a given height. 3) measure how long it took cone to reach the given height 4) measure how long it takes for cone to settle into final height and record overshoot.

@Audioholics

7 ай бұрын

Waste of time unless you're doing driver design. We measure performance as a system which is much more useful to a consumer. We even provide room size ratings based on output and bandwidth.

@andyh8239

7 ай бұрын

@@Audioholics Well, that is what I mean. Driver design. If you are shopping for Audio gear, it is very difficult to identify what drivers will perform in the most desirable way. A Tight fast subwoofer for example. Tight and fast are just loose translations for true to the source. If you could make your choice on data, it would make meeting your performance goals more achievable.

@andyh8239

7 ай бұрын

@@Audioholics Analogy: Take a single 7" Scan-Speak midrange driver in say a 2cf enclosure and model the response. Now take (2) of these drivers in an isobaric arrangement in a 1cf enclosure and model the response. (the response will be identical less 3dB.) Now increase the box back to 2cf and add another 2 drivers also in ISO. you now have the exact same response as the single driver tower. Think about that. (4) Scan-Speak 7" mids arranged as (2) isobaric drivers ina 2cf box and the response curve and efficiency are identical. I would be so bold as to say there is more to this story and your going to have an improvement in sound quality. With two pairs of drivers operating in tandum there are so many benifits to sonic accuracy you could probably write an essay about it.

@Audioholics

7 ай бұрын

@@andyh8239 we measure system group delay which gives you all the data you need to make that determination.

@andyh8239

7 ай бұрын

@@Audioholics Group delay is a measure of phase shift at a given frequency, and typically a product of enclosure design. You cannot guage a speakers ability to respond quickly and overcome pressure loading via group delay. By your logic a slow sloppy floppy 18" subwoofer would play midrange great as there is no group delay at say 500Hz. The iso example above also has the same group delay (arranged as an iso pair) as it does a single. I thought you guys knew more about how this stuff works.

$9k for effectively a dual 15" seems REALLY expensive in comparison to larger dual driver options from JTR, Rythmik, PSA et al. I have a really hard time believing any performance improvement from this design would be worth the money, but the value of diminishing returns are all in the perspective of the buyer, I guess.

@stopthefomo

2 жыл бұрын

It’s better looking and better built than anything you just listed. Just like the Mustang GT500 has more raw HP than a Porsche 911 for half the price

@redstang5150

2 жыл бұрын

@@stopthefomo Better looking? Subjective, but if the aesthetics of a subwoofer compel you to pay double for comparable and likely less output, then you are their target customer. And better built? Basis what metrics? Subs from those other guys are built like tanks. Never have I ever seen one complaint about build quality for any of those brands.

@PoesAcoustics

2 жыл бұрын

This isn’t and can’t compete with small direct sale companies with tiny margins. That’s not realistic. As for looks, if that is your belief then you just aren’t their target audience. People who buy Perlisten and people who buy JTR are not the same kind of people. JTR is a value for people willing to give up aesthetics for performance. Those subs are great. But the Perlisten is a premium product sold to the luxury market at a value price for its fit and finish. The clients I sell to wouldn’t buy JTR. I know because I’ve tried. It’s just a different kind of client. The guys who buy these have state of the art systems that are in full display. Not hidden behind fabric. They are installing them in expensive rooms. And again, this has its own advantages. The distortion on this sub is nearly unmeasurable. None of those are as good. JTR would be the closest and only the newest driver. This also has a very sophisticated amplifier and setup app. Some people want and like those features.

B R. 0 seconds ago worlds most linear subwoofer w/ lowest distortion. TC Sounds LMS Ultra 5400 -Facts

@jameslarson2277

2 жыл бұрын

Maybe 10 to 15 years ago. TC Sounds LMS is a classic driver, but there are excellent modern designs that can equal or surpass the LMS Ultra these days.

@br.9055

2 жыл бұрын

@@jameslarson2277 I doubt it. name 3 and I’ll look up Thiele/small parameters and compare

@PoesAcoustics

2 жыл бұрын

@@br.9055 so you can tell distortion figures from T/S huh? I owned those drivers. The inductance was huge and as a result inductance related distortion was very high. This sub has much lower distortion. That sub also had a bump in the response from the inductance and limited midbass output. Those subs have certainly been surpassed at this point.

The argument that servo uses more power is lol (glares at theater HVAC...)

@PoesAcoustics

2 жыл бұрын

What? You don’t believe it? It’s not an opinion. It’s a fact of how they work.

@dereks.4351

2 жыл бұрын

@@PoesAcoustics It's a fact for sure. But what? Is it relevant on your electric bill? Is the extra heat gonna melt your ultra-premium ice-cream if the HVAC can't keep up? I'm not certain what the panel was wanting to imply...found it humorous.

@PoesAcoustics

2 жыл бұрын

@@dereks.4351 it limits the effectiveness of the servo. At a certain point you can provide enough output to combat the distortion. So it’s wasting electricity by using anywhere from 25% to 100% more power to lower distortion. Either the servo stops being effective or output is reduced from where it could be. I wasn’t talking about the waste from the standpoint of heat or electricity. It’s the fact that it’s benefit can be achieved using other methods without the drawbacks. I don’t happen to believe servos are a good idea when it’s possible to achieve even lower distortion by simply redesigning the driver to be more linear.

@mesonto

Жыл бұрын

Yes, I thought this was quite humorous as well.