The Tarkin Doctrine was simply bound to fail. There’s just too much reliance on fear and not enough practicality to the idea.

@crobatman4448

Жыл бұрын

If only they had bleach's äs nodt in charge,then maybe it would have worked.

@SouRwy4501Productions

Жыл бұрын

@@crobatman4448 maybe

Ruling by fear is only effective as long as those ruled lack courage

@videocrowsnest5251

Жыл бұрын

I would personally say courage is not the absence of fear, but knowing just how afraid one is, yet still doing things because the alternative is far worse.

@TheTeutonicPlague

Жыл бұрын

True. Very true. I like to say that courage is not the absence of fear, but the mastery of it.

@RyanTeeter-lg8jz

11 ай бұрын

Read the book Tarkin and tell me he lacks Courage, timidy and focus It explains alot about his attitude

The problem to rule by fear is fear only works when someone has something to loose. But the more you take away from what they have the more fear stops being an obstacle. Once you corner a caged animal, once you force them into a no win situation. One where hope for a better tomorrow and fear of loss loose meaning you fall into desperation. The rebels stopped being afraid because they had nothing better to loose aside from there lives. But a life not worth living under fear is hardly a deturent. That is why the tarken doctrine failed. Is that fear only works when you have something to loose. You take away everything that is important to a person and they will be a cornered animal ready to lash out.

Using the Death Star against a heavily populated and important planet throught galactic history didn't help much. Most likely the majority of people weren't directly opposed to the Empire. It sent the message that even if you don't do anything wrong the Empire was gonna crush you. Palpatine was also a major player in the downfall of his empire. He basically saw it as a defense for himself against threats to his existence. If he died the empire was tore itself as punishment. Due to his abilities and God complex it made sense to him that the new society should protect just a bunch of exceptional individuals. Many in the top brass didn't care if the nationbwas run efficiently if they could make a killing off it. They weren't gonna live forever so why bother about what happens after they die. The military was a good way to keep people in the service of the empire. But it had no real incentive to actually mitigate the problems of the galaxy. Because that would mean a lesser number would wanna join them. While it produced lot of science there is so much you can gain by building the same overpriced stuff again and again. I'm so glad that there aren't people like this in the real world.

@ntfoperative9432

Жыл бұрын

The thing is, even Palpatine was shocked by Alderaans destruction, and would probably have killed Tarkin himself if the Rebellion didn't get to him first

@8is

Жыл бұрын

@@ntfoperative9432 Palpatine gave Tarkin a black check if I remember correctly. It was a really weird decision.

A far more sustainable strategy for Imperial Opression would be to keep everything at around Pre Ferrix/Pre Death Star levels,Explotiative, but not enough to force revolution, and building a task force system with the ISD still at the head but supported by abunch of smaller ships. Whenever a rebellion pops up, jump in, bust heads, leave, with the reminder that if you act up again, we will be back.

The reason why he failed? Well, if anyone noticed, Tarkin was... a psychopath, and we all know Psychopaths love control, and Tarkin? He fit those categories and traits very well, even more so because of how he looked at them. things and even worse if no one could contradict him and even worse if they told him what he wanted to hear, not what he really should have heard. Tarkin was oblivious to everything and since he couldn't feel anything it was more noticeable, let's remember in Clone Wars when he was rescued along with the Master Even Piell, we see how oblivious he was to everything because one thing is to act with professionalism but another is to be apathetic and seem to rejoice at certain ideas that for others would be very bad due to moral issues

I'd love to see your take on Thrawn's Empire of the Hand, and how it solved a lot of the problems inherit in "traditional" Imperial military doctrine. The short story "Crisis of Faith" by Timothy Zahn, included in the 20th anniversary edition of "Heir to the Empire", illustrates it quite well.

If their was another military doctrine to replace Tarkin's, what would you do differently?

@archiveomnia

Жыл бұрын

Great question, perhaps that would be a good idea for a future video...I think imperial doctrine could have benefited greatly from a wider selection of starships, walkers, etc...in all honesty just removing the reliance on fear from their designs would most likely have doubled or tripled the effectiveness of their vehicles.

@JustVince7810

Жыл бұрын

@@archiveomnia ah yes. Imagine the effectiveness of this new improved imperial doctrine to be on par or even capable of surpassing Halo or even Warhammer standards.

@outlaw0987654321

Жыл бұрын

The fighters alone could have made all the diff. If it where up to me, i would not have even cobsidered making the tie fighter, but have the interceptor as the standard and the defender added to the mix. The empire literally got its ass handed to it by small fighters on many occasions. But from my understanding fighters were not compatable with the TD. And dont get me started on that massive waste og money called the death star. There is no way a moon sized station that could blow up a planet would ever make everyone submit. Its too heavy handed and only thing it did was drive more people to the rebellion. The money of the death stars could have gone to build more ISDs and the development of capital size carriers that could spit out hundreds of interceptors, advanced, bombers and defenders basically the more direct predecessor to the venator that could carry more starfighters and imo if it is the same size of an isd, it could still fit an impressive amount of firepower. The rule by fear also hurt things on the soldier level. To instill fear, failure had serious consequences. Anywhere from getting transfer to a highly undisirable position to flatout execution especially if vader is around there is no way the men of the army and navy could do their best. Hell your Superior could screw up and place the blame on you. Tharwn in legends had it right, he wouldnt punish you for failing as long as you realize your mistake and learn from them and not repeat them all would be fine. By all rights the empire should have taken over the galaxy and held it for some time but that dumb doctrine hamstung people and tech that would have made it easy to secure and hold power

@strategist40k86

Жыл бұрын

Anything Thrawn did would have been better. Heck, he even had the idea of a strong space superiority fighter in the Defender, but the Death Star won out.

@outlaw0987654321

Жыл бұрын

@@strategist40k86 I'm not entirely sure that it's right to say the death star "won out" I can't remember if this is canon or not but even vader was highly impressed by the fighter and HE was going to push for it. but Thrawn of hyperspaced by space whales. I think if he didn't get sent to who knows where, the defender would have seen production, and under his command the rebels may not have gotten a good foothold (even tho they nerfed the fuck outta him in canon). Tharwn himself clearly wasn't into the TD or at the very least wasn't big on the idea of the death star as he flat out told the emperor what ever it was he was doing (i don't think he knew exactly what the death star was but i followed the paper trail and saw a total waste of resources) was a bad idea. Sorry if my info is all mixed up between canon and legends. So much info over the years and my poor ass memory can't be bothered to keep tabs on details like thatx)

Good video, may your channel prosper.

>SW fans 10 years ago: constantly praising the Tarkin Doctrine

The thing is you can never rule purely by fear, because then the moment you show weakness, a reason not to fear you, you've lost all power. You need to trick people into thinking you care, so that even if you show a little weakness, people will write it off, because they don't want the alternative.

The AT-AT isn't a bad vehicle the problem is it was more of a commanding/artillery-based platform rather than a proper main battle walker which the AT-TE back then fulfilled. A lot of vehicles the Empire used could have performed incredibly well had shortcomings been taken seriously and fixed->Lack of shields as an example. Flak and Point defense. It was a very inflexible fighting force with so many problems internally. Had the empire taken what worked in the Republic era and improved on those designs while incorporating them into the Empire then you have a formidable, fearful, flexible yet capable Military force that even the Rebel alliance would struggle against

I think ISDs should take on the role of battleships in the military while Victory, and Gladiator class star destroyers make up the backbone of the fleet.

If Thrawn was still alive then the empire would have looked a lot more different. He was 100% right that they should not put too much resources into something so big that could easily be destroyed by one starfighter.

I was surprised when I saw this was your first video, really well done

And you, new Star Wars channel. We will watch your career with great interest.

Well made vid. Keep them coming!

Bloody amazing video

May I suggest an alternate doctrine for the galactic Empire to use instead of the Tarkin doctrine. And that is to spread loyalty instead of fear. The Roman empire did something similar. When you conquer an enemy planet make sure that there way of life is objectively better than the previous regime. Spread propaganda and turn the civilians on themselves, to become loyal to the empire. IF they resist then strengthen ones grip, stormtroopers are there to protect civilians against insurgents and to uphold civil law! And if all else fails, simply leave. If everything where to go according to plan, then one would have converted the key points of there enemy system to only be able to function with Imperial support. Government, Economy & Industries. And if somehow they manage to survive that place sanctions on them. Eventually the planet will willingly become part of the galactic empire again. And if all else fails. Simply conquer them again. (The Process repeats) Loyalty = Reward Disloyalty = Punishment This is why I loath operation cinder. It's a Plan that can only come into existence when a Dictator is in charge. "If I can't rule this galaxy then nobody can" kinda deal. Which would be fine, however the empire actually conducted it!!! This Destroyed all loyalty left to the empire. Because that set the president that all under the empire will suffer. Loyal or otherwise... which collapsed the whole regime.

Tarkin GROSSLY underestimated the resolve of the Rebels. After all, if the Rebels are willing to put themselves in danger to figure out how to destroy the very weapon you plan to use to subdue them, it REALLY should cross your mind that they’ll be willing to fight back, no matter what.

Can you do a review in the strengths and weaknesses of Grand Admiral Thrawn?

The Tarkin Doctrine would probably have been better used against a rival large political entity or even individual system governments with relatively conventional military forces. Against criminal organizations or cellular insurgent or partisan groups? Never. Money or a desire for freedom trumps fear every time. Plus his military and security formations were too large and ponderous to effectively combat the Rebellion.

Hey, I found your video in my recommendation!

The Tarkin Dogma !

He should have accepted tie defender program 😭.

Speaking as somebody that has been apart of the SW fandom longer than I suspect a fair number of the newer generstion prequel kiddies and such have been alive, its been imcredibly surreal to watch what are, to be quite frank, fan-generated mythology become so incredibly widespread like this. Whether it be 'AKSHAULLY slugthrowers are a hard counter to Jedi!', to 'AKSHAULLY Vader has a -10 to saving throws against electricity damage!', and, of course, 'AKSHAULLY the Imps were all TEH STTOOPDDIZZ, and Tarkin was the reason the Empire died!'. I'm trying reasonably hard to restrain myself here with my tone, but....None of these ideas have any real validity or basis behind them. There ARE frequently little nuggets of truth behind them, perhaps, but the wisdom of the masses, while sometimes correct, is often in a roundabout way, and in many others isn't right at all. They are pure mythology. And I suppose thats kind of fitting, in a way; its easy to forget that Star Wars was, much like LOTR, intended to be a mythological sort of story, even if that aspect has more or less been entirely lost over time. A grand space opera of epic scale, about the struggles of a small group of people against evil and their own demons. Either way, as always, the response to this stuff always remains the same, so long as SW remains a private, and not public, IP, this isn't true. Slugthrowers dont counter Jedi, Vader isn't secretly an electrical conductor in disguise, and the Empire wasn't really written or intended as or to be drooling invalids. The 'Tarkin Doctrine' is an idea that is only barely mentioned in the source material, and with very little detail, so to have it somehow blamed for the Empire's fall is just...comical. Especially when we...uh, well, already know how and why the Empire fell. Its not very complicated. We even got a whole movie trilogy out of it and everything. Peope dont need to invent stuff like this. We know why it happened; the Emperor took the short way down to the reactor, and died. The End. Well, per EU and such in both canon's we know the Empire proceeded to more or less self destruct and implode afterwards due its utter reliance upon Palpatine for its continued existence, but nevertheless. It all had nothing really to do with TeH SToOpDiZ IMpSs!!.

@archiveomnia

10 ай бұрын

The Tarkin Doctrine does exist though, yes you can argue it's an over-analyzed idea that doesn't have much direct mention within the actual source material but to be honest that's what makes much of the discussion around it so fun to be apart of. If certain people or groups in the fandom want to take the end of the Empire as it was shown on screen that's completely fine. But there are also other fans who will take a few lines from Tarkin and Palpatine, perhaps cross-reference it with some stuff from the EU, and make videos like this. This video is simply my personal analysis on what I believe to be the Empire's primary strategy of Rule by Fear. And after looking at many of the comments from people genuinely discussing this topic I'm glad I made it.

@papapalps2415

10 ай бұрын

@@archiveomnia "The Tarkin Doctrine does exist, though...(snip)" It is also, as you proceed to immediately admit, 'an over analyzed idea that doesn't have much direct mention'. Which is still vastly underselling it, tbh (I can actually guarantee to you, with my left nut on the line as payment, that 99% of all people that bring up the concept of the Tarkin Doctrine have zero earthly idea what exactly it is or where it even comes from), but, I digress. "....but to be honest that's what makes so much of the discussion around it so fun to be apart of....' And thats wonderful. But do you not really see any issue whatsoever in spreading what is, for all intents and purposes, misinformation? Sure, it ultimately doesn't really matter; you aren't discussing politics or whatever. But it IS still misinformation. The Tarkin Doctrine, point blank, isn't why the Empire fell, and to say it is, is incorrect. Full stop. And yet, there are literal LEGIONS of people on the Internet that unironically believe it, that the Empire was TEH STOOPODIZ, precisely BECAUSE of KZreadrs like you telling them, and that's that in their minds. It's the exact same case with any infinite number of other incorrect things, either on SW or life in general. A vaguely authoritative figure says something is true about something a person doesn't know much about or overly care about, and accept it as true, no critical thinking or knowledge required. "If certain people or groups in the fandom want to take the end of the Empire as it was shown on screen....(snip)" Well, I mean, no, thats not really how it works. Officially, at least. The end of the Empire as it was depicted on screen IS what happened. Again, SW isn't a open intellectual property (and with Disney at the helm, it never will be). The movies aren't just suggestions. They are the core basis of the entire franchise. They override anything the EU has to say, if need be, no matter how many times its reiterated inside. Although, like I was saying, you obviously seem to be more into/referring to the mythology aspect of SW, the collective aspect of the franchise 'owned', for all intents and purposes, by the people. And thats fine, really. But do keep in mind that such a thing is fickle, at best. A scant decade or so ago, discourse like this literally didn't exist. Its only come to exist because of various many external factors. New generation, new ideas, distance from the original movies, etc. It is 'fanon', in Internet slang.

@beewitha50cal

6 ай бұрын

If it's referenced in official star wars books or material, it's Canon. Period. This kinda gatekeepy jackassery is why I refuse to call myself a star wars fan.

@papapalps2415

6 ай бұрын

@@beewitha50cal Gatekeeping is good, and infact, is borderline essential, nor does this address anything I said.

@beewitha50cal

6 ай бұрын

@papapalps2415 The fact that you think gatekeeping is good tells me more than enough to know addressing anything you say is a waste of time since lord forbid your precious narrow view of "canon" isn't what dominates discourse on the topic of star wars. You immediately came out the game confrontational with the videos creator, immediately whining how the discourse he discusses is "fanon" and doesn't actually exist apparently, even when it's been featured in multiple prominent star wars novels and media (hint: those are just as Canon as the films) and then basically plug your ears Ignore any attempt at refutation offered by Archiveomnia. And then you act like gatekeeping is a vital service. Fans like you are a cancer to any Fandom and I will no longer address a word you reply with, this conversation is over since you have no interest in actual debate or conversation.

Admiral Daala tho

FEAR WILL KEEP THEM IN LINE FEAR OF THIS BATTLESTATION! the problem with having a large military as big as the galatic empire was how cheap some of their equipment was the TIE/LN fighter is a great example of this problem it's cheap yes mass produced yes but the rebels X-wing was superior enough that it outweight the numerical advantage the TIE/LN had... On the other end to the spectrum The Death star was a huge target a putting all your eggs in one basket thing. the credits and time spent on both death stars could have been spent on more ISD better Tie fighters or other assets, Of note of this VAder and Grand Admiral Thrawn did not like the Death star.

I doubt the Empire had 25,000 Star Destroyers. Some dialogue in ANH addresses this.

@archiveomnia

Жыл бұрын

25,000 is usually the number referenced in canon and legends from my knowledge, I believe the number is mentioned in Star Wars: Uprising and Specters of the Past.

@papapalps2415

10 ай бұрын

You're right, actually; the Empire likely had far more than that, at least in the old canon. Amusingly, ANH actually suggests the exact opposite of what you are implying.

A Galactic Empire ruled by Grand Admiral Thrawn would have been a multinational police force governed by a military code of conduct, not a dictatorship controlled by feuding megalomaniacs.

Tarkin is a Reformer, and like modern Russia prioritised posturing over actual comptenency

Long lasting empires didnt convince their citizens that they would be annihilated if they didn’t work towards the prosperity of the empire- long lasting empires made sure the citizens genuinely cared about the empire they were a part of, because they felt like a part of it. The empire never really tried to become an integrated base for society. It always felt and acted like an occupying army during a war. Rome lasted 1000 years because the people saw themselves as having a Roman identity and cared about the Roman Empire. There’s no pan-galactic identity of any kind towards the empire.

Great video, also, is it just me or does this guy sound like MoistCr1tical?

Of course it failed. Far too strict and rips everything away from you that can be a comfort to your soul.

I can sum it up in one sentence. Because it was beyond feckin impractical and stupid.

Because the whole doctrine is is stupid and they never listen to him. Sidious would have kept the venators the clones and the v wings and all the Republic stuff during the clone wars. You know the weapons that actually work and battle armor that was actually good and soldiers that were actually pretty good better than in all the rest. You know if the Empire never listen to tarkin. And his massive stupidity the rebels would have lost within a week

@elpinguinovolador4114

Жыл бұрын

Hmmmmm, not really necessary, the venators would have eventually been overpowered by the mc cruisers (a thing the Star destroyers never were) the clones were unpractical and not necessary, why would you need super soldiers to fight basically space isis, the stormtroopers were vastly superior in equipment and skill to their rebel counterparts and still lost since never fought a actual war but defended against a guerrilla (and the will of the writers to make them miss so they can do shitty action scenes, yes mando I am looking at you) the v wings would haven been outclassed by the rebel vessels so the things would stay the same as with the ties. So I think there were more eficient ways to do the thing than staying with old stuff.

I'm such a Chad

I don't like the video.