Welcome to Archive Omnia. Uploads on this channel will analyze and discuss a multitude of topics from different universes. Star Wars, Warhammer 40k, Fallout and history are all topics I plan to cover. Thanks for stopping by!
Tarkin failed to understand that ruling through fear is a delicate balance. It's important to not crush the people enough that they begin to hate you more than they fear you. For instance, the destruction of Alderaan. Regardless of Leia's answer, Tarkin decided to blow up a peaceful planet. To the rest of the galaxy, if Alderaan was destroyed on a whim, any one of them could be next. It's the old carrot and stick method--it doesn’t work if you get the stick either way. By that point, why not support the Rebel Alliance if you're going to get nuked just for being in the same city of a troublesome rebel cell?
@Kira225583 ай бұрын
He should have accepted tie defender program 😭.
@vitesse_arnhem3 ай бұрын
Admiral Daala tho
@classicrockandfurriesrule47435 ай бұрын
The Tarkin Dogma !
@cambuxton68355 ай бұрын
Of course it failed. Far too strict and rips everything away from you that can be a comfort to your soul.
@tompearce54185 ай бұрын
A Galactic Empire ruled by Grand Admiral Thrawn would have been a multinational police force governed by a military code of conduct, not a dictatorship controlled by feuding megalomaniacs.
@poggersman91426 ай бұрын
Wasn't the original trilogy a Vietnam War allegory? The Empire being the US and the rebels being the rag tag group of farmers and everyday men who eventually won.
@great-reich6 ай бұрын
Я всегда ассоциировал Палпатина с Гитлером или Цезарем, Империя и Республика похожи на Римскую Империю и Римскую Республику
@archiveomnia6 ай бұрын
That is correct, George Lucas did say that the Vietnam war and politics of the era were a big part of his initial inspiration. I did mention this briefly near the end of the video but admittedly this video does focus much on the Galactic Empire and it's basis on the Third Reich.
@archiveomnia6 ай бұрын
I'm going to pin this just to make it clear. This video is not calling Star Wars fans Nazis. I am certain that 99% of people will understand that, but I figured a small disclaimer wouldn't hurt. The Nazi's were real, The Galactic Empire is not (at least to our knowledge). Hope everyone enjoys this history/Star Wars mash-up!
@TheCorrodedMan6 ай бұрын
The Galaxy as it is now is nothing but one big tragedy. An age of progress, science, and reason…corrupted into a dark age unlike anything seen in living memory, where the merest _suggestion_ of independent thought is stamped out and suppressed. A dying man, trapped on a broken throne, and both of them trapped within a dying Galaxy.
@marianomercado62846 ай бұрын
The reason why he failed? Well, if anyone noticed, Tarkin was... a psychopath, and we all know Psychopaths love control, and Tarkin? He fit those categories and traits very well, even more so because of how he looked at them. things and even worse if no one could contradict him and even worse if they told him what he wanted to hear, not what he really should have heard. Tarkin was oblivious to everything and since he couldn't feel anything it was more noticeable, let's remember in Clone Wars when he was rescued along with the Master Even Piell, we see how oblivious he was to everything because one thing is to act with professionalism but another is to be apathetic and seem to rejoice at certain ideas that for others would be very bad due to moral issues <:v
@mattofborg6 ай бұрын
Great video, also, is it just me or does this guy sound like MoistCr1tical?
@rmartinson197 ай бұрын
The ISD was a phenomenal peacetime vessel, able to handle pretty much any peacetime mission profile on-the-fly and with minimal adjustment to its loadout. But being a generalist design, it inevitably falls short when put up against any similarly sized vessel that is purely specialized for one role. Against a dedicated battleship in the same size range, the ISD would lose every time. Against a dedicated fleet carrier in the same size range, the ISD's pitiful 72 attack craft is nothing. It is a ship whose entire design philosophy is built around the assumption that it will never face a peer-level opponent.
@aquarius57197 ай бұрын
When playing Rebellion tabletop with expansion, I had a battle in Naboo. Ackbar destroyed 2 SD and Ackbar only lost an X wing squad. It was embarrasing. I found that it is not a great battleship.
@grandmofftarkin31177 ай бұрын
I'm such a Chad
@damonedrington34538 ай бұрын
Long lasting empires didnt convince their citizens that they would be annihilated if they didn’t work towards the prosperity of the empire- long lasting empires made sure the citizens genuinely cared about the empire they were a part of, because they felt like a part of it. The empire never really tried to become an integrated base for society. It always felt and acted like an occupying army during a war. Rome lasted 1000 years because the people saw themselves as having a Roman identity and cared about the Roman Empire. There’s no pan-galactic identity of any kind towards the empire.
@larryakre59658 ай бұрын
The size of the galaxy requires independent self sufficient units much like BCT’s The failure was the resources wasted on the 2 Death Star projects, those resources could have been applied to upgrading all tie fighters to interceptors or defenders additional support ships as needed based on any given situation And additional star destroyers But really a platform carrying 72 fighters well shielded heavily armed capable of carrying a full garrison of ground pounders with equipment and being able to properly support those ground pounders , there is nothing wrong with it
@matthiuskoenig33787 ай бұрын
You got it wrong, the size of the galaxy would encourage the use of specialised ships, not discourage it.
@just83108 ай бұрын
I don't like the video.
@randalcook3259 ай бұрын
I love your video. However, the biggest problem for us Imperials is this, it's a movie that had the cursed rebels winning no matter what because they were supposedly the " good guys". That being shelved for now, here is what a actual Imperial Grand Admiral Council most likely would have done in order to out down this rebellion. First, their were plenty of spies willing to make a lot of Imperial Credits for viable information on where the shipyards are that are building the cursed Xwing fighters. Then you send as many Star Destroyers as it takes to blow them into dust. Then you send as many ISD's as it takes and as many support vessels to destroy the ship building facilities at Ackbars fish planet Mon Cal and decimate the orbital shipbuilding ring where they are building those awful snot looking home one ships. Then fry the oceans of Mon Cal and dare them to defy the Emperor again. Then use any spy necessary to find that traitor Mon mothma and hold the biggest show trial on Coruscant in history to try and draw out some other rebels. Put Grand Admiral Thrawn in Charge of all Military.Operations as he is most definitely the smartest of the Grand Admirals and keep Tarkin in Politics and the running of the Sectors and over sectors, and let him run like ISB if he wants to. The bottom line is the Imperial Navy has to play dirty like the da** rebels did. "DO WHAT MUST BE DONE!" Have Vader do the tracking down with the spies and help do the destruction once they are found. Make it so hard on the rebellion that they will stop. Long Live The Emperor.
@richroll989410 ай бұрын
Legitimately, like one fuckin Lancer or he’ll even a 2-3 Gozanti’s or raiders would have helped, or just giving the damn TIE fighters ordinance or shields. Or if they’d just used Interceptors instead of LN models
@TheHeroRises10 ай бұрын
Great video. Keep it up!
@TheHeroRises10 ай бұрын
Well made vid. Keep them coming!
@TheHeroRises10 ай бұрын
Great video!
@TheHeroRises10 ай бұрын
Excellent video! Keep ‘em coming!
@papapalps241511 ай бұрын
Speaking as somebody that has been apart of the SW fandom longer than I suspect a fair number of the newer generstion prequel kiddies and such have been alive, its been imcredibly surreal to watch what are, to be quite frank, fan-generated mythology become so incredibly widespread like this. Whether it be 'AKSHAULLY slugthrowers are a hard counter to Jedi!', to 'AKSHAULLY Vader has a -10 to saving throws against electricity damage!', and, of course, 'AKSHAULLY the Imps were all TEH STTOOPDDIZZ, and Tarkin was the reason the Empire died!'. I'm trying reasonably hard to restrain myself here with my tone, but....None of these ideas have any real validity or basis behind them. There ARE frequently little nuggets of truth behind them, perhaps, but the wisdom of the masses, while sometimes correct, is often in a roundabout way, and in many others isn't right at all. They are pure mythology. And I suppose thats kind of fitting, in a way; its easy to forget that Star Wars was, much like LOTR, intended to be a mythological sort of story, even if that aspect has more or less been entirely lost over time. A grand space opera of epic scale, about the struggles of a small group of people against evil and their own demons. Either way, as always, the response to this stuff always remains the same, so long as SW remains a private, and not public, IP, this isn't true. Slugthrowers dont counter Jedi, Vader isn't secretly an electrical conductor in disguise, and the Empire wasn't really written or intended as or to be drooling invalids. The 'Tarkin Doctrine' is an idea that is only barely mentioned in the source material, and with very little detail, so to have it somehow blamed for the Empire's fall is just...comical. Especially when we...uh, well, already know how and why the Empire fell. Its not very complicated. We even got a whole movie trilogy out of it and everything. Peope dont need to invent stuff like this. We know why it happened; the Emperor took the short way down to the reactor, and died. The End. Well, per EU and such in both canon's we know the Empire proceeded to more or less self destruct and implode afterwards due its utter reliance upon Palpatine for its continued existence, but nevertheless. It all had nothing really to do with TeH SToOpDiZ IMpSs!!.
@archiveomnia10 ай бұрын
The Tarkin Doctrine does exist though, yes you can argue it's an over-analyzed idea that doesn't have much direct mention within the actual source material but to be honest that's what makes much of the discussion around it so fun to be apart of. If certain people or groups in the fandom want to take the end of the Empire as it was shown on screen that's completely fine. But there are also other fans who will take a few lines from Tarkin and Palpatine, perhaps cross-reference it with some stuff from the EU, and make videos like this. This video is simply my personal analysis on what I believe to be the Empire's primary strategy of Rule by Fear. And after looking at many of the comments from people genuinely discussing this topic I'm glad I made it.
@papapalps241510 ай бұрын
@@archiveomnia "The Tarkin Doctrine does exist, though...(snip)" It is also, as you proceed to immediately admit, 'an over analyzed idea that doesn't have much direct mention'. Which is still vastly underselling it, tbh (I can actually guarantee to you, with my left nut on the line as payment, that 99% of all people that bring up the concept of the Tarkin Doctrine have zero earthly idea what exactly it is or where it even comes from), but, I digress. "....but to be honest that's what makes so much of the discussion around it so fun to be apart of....' And thats wonderful. But do you not really see any issue whatsoever in spreading what is, for all intents and purposes, misinformation? Sure, it ultimately doesn't really matter; you aren't discussing politics or whatever. But it IS still misinformation. The Tarkin Doctrine, point blank, isn't why the Empire fell, and to say it is, is incorrect. Full stop. And yet, there are literal LEGIONS of people on the Internet that unironically believe it, that the Empire was TEH STOOPODIZ, precisely BECAUSE of KZreadrs like you telling them, and that's that in their minds. It's the exact same case with any infinite number of other incorrect things, either on SW or life in general. A vaguely authoritative figure says something is true about something a person doesn't know much about or overly care about, and accept it as true, no critical thinking or knowledge required. "If certain people or groups in the fandom want to take the end of the Empire as it was shown on screen....(snip)" Well, I mean, no, thats not really how it works. Officially, at least. The end of the Empire as it was depicted on screen IS what happened. Again, SW isn't a open intellectual property (and with Disney at the helm, it never will be). The movies aren't just suggestions. They are the core basis of the entire franchise. They override anything the EU has to say, if need be, no matter how many times its reiterated inside. Although, like I was saying, you obviously seem to be more into/referring to the mythology aspect of SW, the collective aspect of the franchise 'owned', for all intents and purposes, by the people. And thats fine, really. But do keep in mind that such a thing is fickle, at best. A scant decade or so ago, discourse like this literally didn't exist. Its only come to exist because of various many external factors. New generation, new ideas, distance from the original movies, etc. It is 'fanon', in Internet slang.
@beewitha50cal7 ай бұрын
If it's referenced in official star wars books or material, it's Canon. Period. This kinda gatekeepy jackassery is why I refuse to call myself a star wars fan.
@papapalps24157 ай бұрын
@@beewitha50cal Gatekeeping is good, and infact, is borderline essential, nor does this address anything I said.
@beewitha50cal7 ай бұрын
@papapalps2415 The fact that you think gatekeeping is good tells me more than enough to know addressing anything you say is a waste of time since lord forbid your precious narrow view of "canon" isn't what dominates discourse on the topic of star wars. You immediately came out the game confrontational with the videos creator, immediately whining how the discourse he discusses is "fanon" and doesn't actually exist apparently, even when it's been featured in multiple prominent star wars novels and media (hint: those are just as Canon as the films) and then basically plug your ears Ignore any attempt at refutation offered by Archiveomnia. And then you act like gatekeeping is a vital service. Fans like you are a cancer to any Fandom and I will no longer address a word you reply with, this conversation is over since you have no interest in actual debate or conversation.
@skymabile398911 ай бұрын
The Tarkin Doctrine is what happens when you apply the logic of a common school bully to an entire government, beating down and intimidating victim's gambling they won't get nerd rage and bite you back. Which it always does.
@darthmeta644511 ай бұрын
A ship that was impressive and outstanding for a particular role... just not the role it was utilized in.
@redenginner11 ай бұрын
Its funny I prefer the EU/Legends evolution of the Star Destroyer line post Endor. The Nebula and Turbulent class lowered the fighter compliment further,but where much more heavily designed to serve as a part of a larger battlegroup. Especially the Nebula, with the Endurance serving as a dedicated fleet carrier while the Nebula was a pure battleship.
@seawind93011 ай бұрын
It was a "do everything" ship, Ship to ship fights, carrier, and ground assault platform. Unfortunetly it could never do all those duties as well as ships that were dedicated to those specific tasks and that gave it weakness. The exposed bridge and shielding areas made it better for coordinating fighter and ground assaults but made it weaker in Ship to ship combat. Its hanger wasn't large enough to to do massive fighter and ground assualts and it gave an exposed area that lacked armor with the Hanger it did have. If they had given it a proper escort instead of making it system domination weapon it would have done just fine.
@igncom111 ай бұрын
I would argue that the ISD was the perfect ship..... for the last war. Like many weapons designed for conflicts in real life, it's designed and built to perfect all the lessons learned in previous conflicts, in this case for the Clone Wars. For a conflict against a large scale, primarily droid using opponent, the ISD is the perfect counter in that it does not rely on strikecraft which would have to contend with disposable droids, and could easily out gun any conventional warship the separatists ever fielded. But upon the advent of new revolutionary multi-role starfighters, such as the x-wing, the dynamics of warfare changed against the effectiveness of battleships like the ISD. Cheap Ties might have worked well against Vulture Droids, or trade with Tridroids, but that era had ended and is unlikely to return.
@papapalps241511 ай бұрын
But the ISD worked fine against the Rebels, lul.
@matthiuskoenig33787 ай бұрын
TIEs would have been useless against Vultures and tri droids. The Tector is the evolution of clone wars lessons. A dedicated battleship meant for fleet actions with escorts.
@MarkoDash11 ай бұрын
In my opinion the ISD's main failing was that it was pushed into a 'do-everything' role, effectively having to perform the job of 3 republic era ships the Ship-to-Ship of the Victory the Fighter Carrier of the Venator and the ground assault of the Acclamator
@RyanTeeter-lg8jz11 ай бұрын
it was DESIGNED that way it was kickass in fleet engagements (outside of Endor) Its fighter complement was made smaller due to having an ENTIRE LEGION on board, in the Rogue squadron series the Rogues view it as suicidal to fight an ISD wing alone (with no legion the complement could easily be 400 TIEs) and was successful as heck as an invader to lock down a planet after the war in legends, it continued production until like 40 Aby with ISD-3s (never called ISD-3s but they have internalized interdictors)
@MarkoDash11 ай бұрын
@@RyanTeeter-lg8jz that's pretty much what i meant, it seems like it was originally conceived as a pure battleship and then had the other mission capabilities bradley-ed into it before the design entered production. i think what the ISD was originally conceived as ended up being the Tector class
@RyanTeeter-lg8jz11 ай бұрын
@@MarkoDash In legends, the NR continued making ISDs until 40 ABY and Luke's son Ben was born on the ISD-2 Errant Venture, a mobile smuggler's den owned by Booster Terrick that was also the Jedi temple for a few years The development went like this During the prewar period, the Venators and Victorys were being designed and produced, during reactor tests the Victorys reactor had issues, delaying it until the second year of the war (20 aby) Fun fact Walex Blissex designed the victory while his daughter Lira designed the Venator, Imperial, and Executor classes, Walex later defected to the rebellion building the A-Wing fighter anyways because of it being a cruiser carrier, the Venator, originally intended as the Victories supporting carrier was thrust into the mainline warship role, being under-armed and under armored for this role, most tactics were to launch fighters and stand at long range with covering fire for the fighters, getting in close was suicidal (Victorys would brawl and Venators help with fighters and stuff) The Victory program was delayed as previously mentioned, its rollout in the first 6 months was delayed by a year, resulting in thousands of Venators being used instead, but when they did see combat they quickly became the favoured frontline ship, being a brawler capable of going toe to toe with a Providence class and wining But before the Victory had fired a shot the next design was in the works The Imperator-Class Star Destroyer, a 1.6 km beast with 60 turbolasers, 60 ion cannons, and 8 turrets, 6 turbolaser turrets and 2 ion cannons, and enough space for a wing and a legion on board it was quite literally the most over gunned ship in republic history at that point Due to wartime production being slow to change (Venator production lines were being retooled), the first combat action the Imperators fought in was the battle of Coruscant, and it would take another 20 years to have a huge engagement again where they lost But for the 40 years after Endor, the ISD served with distinction in the Imperial Navy, New Republic Navy, Galactic Federation of Free Alliances (also known as the Galactic Alliance), and even as Booster Terriks dream The tectors development has never been covered as it has had relativly few apperances in media, but Reddit has theorized, along with the Thrawns Revenge team, that it was designed to be the frontline brawler of the fleet, being supported by other Tectors, ISDs and a carrier 1 Tector, 2 Isds and 1 Venator Basically the Republics Lucherhulk killer
@papapalps241511 ай бұрын
@@MarkoDashBut the ISD was always conceived as being versatile, though.
@jonwoodhouse144411 ай бұрын
The ISD would have been the perfect ship during the Clone Wars, but it was the wrong ship for the Galactic Civil War.
@HolyknightVader99911 ай бұрын
Uh, it didn't fail. In the new canon, the Imperial fleet soundly crushed the Rebel fleet during the Mid-Rim Offensive. It got so bad that the Rebellion's offensive was later renamed to the "mid-rim retreat". The navy only started failing when they started fighting each other after the Emperor's demise. But given that during the Galactic Civil War, the Rebels and their fleet were running away 9 times out of 10 because of the superior firepower of the Imperial Fleet, that means the ISD did its job well, at least from 19 BBY to 4 ABY. This video's premise is completely flawed. Endor was the occasional fluke that proved the rule.
@HolyknightVader99911 ай бұрын
@@RyanTeeter-lg8jz Exactly. Venators would've been chewed up and spat out by the Rebels. At least the ISDs made them struggle to the point where 9 times out of 10, the Rebel Fleet was running away from the ISDs.
@RyanTeeter-lg8jz11 ай бұрын
@@HolyknightVader999 if you ever play the game Empire at War, theres a mod called Thrawns revenge, its good, the team made a prequel mod called fall of the republic with accurate ship weapons and hp the number 1 complaint is the venators are too weak and underarmed, which is canon and legends accurate
@HolyknightVader99911 ай бұрын
@@RyanTeeter-lg8jz Exactly. Even in TCW there's plenty of scenes where the Venator seems to be outclassed, or its weapons and systems are shown to be inadequate.
@archiveomnia11 ай бұрын
The ISD failing does not mean it was a bad vessel per say. Much of it's failing comes from the doctrine in which it served. That being the Tarkin Doctrine (Which I have a separate video on). In standard ship to ship engagements it was almost unparalleled. The issue is once the rebellion began to understand what the ISD was they exploited it's weaknesses, and due to internal factors within the Empire itself and flawed fleet composition the ISD ended up being an inadequate choice for what the Empire was facing. I will say this much, the ISD did do well for a while in the restraints of the Tarkin Doctrine. But the Tarkin Doctrine itself was flawed and ended up leading to the downfall of the Empire as a whole. I would also like to mention that never in this video did I say the Empire should replace their entire fleet with either the Venator or the ISD-3, that was the entire issue with the ISD's use in the first place.
@archiveomnia11 ай бұрын
@@RyanTeeter-lg8jz This channel does not make any money at the moment, and suggesting that I would pour hours of work into a video like this for anything other than expressing my genuine opinion (emphasis on opinion) on Star Wars canon is absurd.
@MrPyroCrab11 ай бұрын
Considering both the New Republic and the Galactic Alliance were mass producing and using ISDs well into the Vong War and beyond, I really don't think the Imperial Class can be considered a "failure"
@archiveomnia11 ай бұрын
I am aware that the ISD had a very strong presence well after the Empire in legends. But the majority of this video is based off of canon and it's use during the Galactic Civil War.
@glennjanot812811 ай бұрын
The dagger shape of the ISD would make it a phenomenal attack craft. Put dozens of turbolasers into the trenches and the top of the ship, which is also tiered, and they could all fire forward at the same time.
@TheHunter99311 ай бұрын
Let it be known that I have been here before this channel blow up to a few thousand subs
@johnbrowning123211 ай бұрын
The Tie defenders where armed with a pair of warhead launcher, 4 laser cannons and 2 ion cannons. Not 8 laser cannons
@seawind93011 ай бұрын
New canon they are all 8 laser cannons, Disney doesn't really do warheads in fighter battles.
@johnbrowning123211 ай бұрын
@@seawind930 they do still list warhead launchers for the canon design. Disney removed the ion cannons and added chin mount cannons. So new design is 8 laser cannons and two warhead launchers. I hate Disneys new BS .
@henrydawson876711 ай бұрын
Ive already said my piece under another comment, but for the sake of appeasing the all mighty youtube god known as the "algorithm", ill post this ramble of a comment to show my "engagement" of this "content".
@andyb165311 ай бұрын
I'll never understand why they had to go and f*ck with the proportions of this ship when they were making Rebels. Seriously, the movie version was damn near perfect, the giraffe-necked version in Rebels makes me irrationally angry every time I see it. I absolutely adored the characters and storylines of that show (best animated SW show by far), but some of the stylistic choices they made are just... baffling (squished TIE fighters and pencil-sabers are also extremely questionable).
@henrydawson876711 ай бұрын
To be fair, Rebels animation style was purposely distinct from both the movies and the Clone Wars tv show. Now the I didn't always agree with some of the design choices they made (key ones being the one you listed), but I respect the hell out of them for sticking to it (even as they massacre my boy Hondo). Why? Because it was a beautiful tribute to the man who shape the entire distinct visual style from the beginning, Ralph McQuarrie. Instead of potentially taking the easy road of just playing it safe (and the more so financially smart option) by copying the same art style of last adore and successful animation series, The Clone Wars, they decided to take to take the risk of alienating past audiences just to pay tribute to a man who in my opinion, truly deserves all the credit. Anyway that's my rant over, forgive the poor grammar and sentence structures, I am quite tired from a long day. May the force be with you and such.
@andyb165311 ай бұрын
@@henrydawson8767 Oh yes, I'm well aware of McQuarrie and Cantwell's contributions to our favorite little space opera. But I've never been one to be blinded by hero worship- it may be an unpopular opinion, but I've always thought that while Ralph, Colin and George were all visionaries in their own right, their work often benefitted from a second opinion. I think the stuff we got on screen often looked BETTER than the concept art, something of a rarity in Hollywood sci-fi. What's especially irksome about the ISD and TIE fighter in Rebels, is that the show is full of OT and CW ships with their original proportions intact. CR90s, Nebulon-B2s, any and all manner of "wings" (A, X, Y and B), TIE Interceptors and Defenders, the Interdictor cruiser, and the Arquitens all make appearances without having their designs altered much.
@mcoractualcustomsreviews526611 ай бұрын
A fleet made up of ISD III, Interdictor-class ISD, anti-ship frigates, Gozanti-class cruisers, improved TIE wings (multiple variants; placing elite pilots in the Tie Defenders). This would give something TIE noobies to earn towards if they survived long enough. And finally, keep the Acclamator-class assault ship purely for ground troop transport; i.e., AT-ATs, AT-STs, Stormtroopers, etc. I think that would be a solid battle plan.
@rigelkent840111 ай бұрын
Why do people love the tie Defender it is very large ,consumes a lot of resorces on the ship much better is the blast boat and it can carry troops .
@mcoractualcustomsreviews526611 ай бұрын
@rigelkent8401 Because as the Galactic Civil War demonstrated, a fighter with better survivability will outdo fighter swarms of inferior fighters. The days of giant battleships with turbolasers were over before it began. This is extremely similar to the carrier-born attack fighters/bombers' superiority over a battleship (like the Yamato during WW2). If your best pilots are constantly getting waxed, you lose a resource you can't easily replace. Training replacement pilots take time, resources, and experience. Ask Imperial Japan during WWII. The TIE Defender had shields, hyper drive, etc. Regular TIEs had none of that and required a mothership to launch from. Defenders did not. Those are enormous tactical advantages. Blastboats are a gunship. They fulfill a different purpose. And you can't very well land troops if the transports get picked off without support from fighter/interceptor escourt. They are also limited to 4 hyperspace coordinates to jump to in hyperspace. That's pretty limited... Moreover, the blastboat, if you are talking about the fighter GAT configuration, was made from different parts and structures. TIE parts are pretty interchangeable. The more mixed your fleet, the harder it is to maintain (sorry Rebels). "Amateurs talk strategy, professionals talk logistics." - Omar Bradley
@user-br4bd3oy7q11 ай бұрын
The New Republic, and successor state, the GA did continue to produce ISDs late into the second galactic civil war with the commissioning of the Anakin Solo pretty much being an ISD II. it had a advanced starfighter wing, and anti starfighter weapons capability's. It also had a cloaking device, and gravity well generators.
@andyb165311 ай бұрын
Yeah, Legends really was better wasn't it. In most aspects, anyway.
@dangerbeans963911 ай бұрын
The Venator was a carrier being used as a battleship and the ISD was a battleship being used as a carrier. 😂
@jared547211 ай бұрын
Lmfaoo never realized that before. Is funny.
@andyb165311 ай бұрын
TBH both ships were meant to be a blend of both things, but yeah neither Government really got the balance right, and both had absolutely shit tactics when deploying/using them to their strengths.
@RyanTeeter-lg8jz11 ай бұрын
was never used as a carrier it was used as a battleship in most depictions, only in Bacta war was it used as one, and even then its used as a capital ship but it was also a troop transport it had an entire legion capable of locking down a planet if anything your logic should be that the Venator was terrible as a battleship as it was horribly underarmed and underarmored and shielded, during the Clone Wars the production lines were being changed to Victorys and ISDs for that reason Unfortunatly videos like these don't show proper sources, read some sw books and the isd becomes a beast and the New Republic kept building ISDs until 40 ABY and several like the Mon Mothma, Bail Organa, Rebel Dream and Elgos A'kla served with distiction Alongside the Errant Venture, the biggest smugglers ship ever and the biggest ship in the smuggler navy during the vong war, also served as the freakin JEDI TEMPLE and was where Lukes son was born (its an ISD-2 that was captured in Bacta War by Booster Terrick and converted into a mobile port)
@dangerbeans963911 ай бұрын
@@RyanTeeter-lg8jz I’n the US Navy, Aircraft carriers are the centerpiece of America's Naval forces - the most adaptable and survivable airfields in the world. On any given day, Sailors aboard an aircraft carrier and its air wing come to the fight trained and equipped across a full range of missions. They are ready to control the sea, conduct strikes, and maneuver across the electromagnetic spectrum and cyberspace. No other naval force fields a commensurate range and depth of combat capabilities. They are the centerpiece of the navy around which any and all naval operations are planned and commenced. This is exactly how they used the Star Destroyer. As the centerpiece of their fleet, but the Star Destroyer is only a good carrier of ground troops and was rarely, if ever escorted by a proper fleet.
@RyanTeeter-lg8jz11 ай бұрын
@@dangerbeans9639 One major difference is US carriers only carry CWIS weapons, they rely exclusively on its complement and escorts for defense The ISD is the equivalent of gluing Two Iowas, an amphibious transport, AND a Carrier together BSGs Galactica is the same (without troops), the fighters hold the enemy off, while the ISD closes and kills the carrier THATS what it is designed to do I'm not denying they don't need an escort, but that's more of the Empire being spread thin, with the normal screens being spread out across star systems as defenders of low priority planets Books the isd performs well in Bacta War Star By Star (if shooting down refugee ships doesn't negate their usefulness during the fall of Coruscant) Rebel Dream Rebel Stand Destinys way Final Proficy The Unifying Force and any book after with the Admiral Ackbar or GAG Anakin Solo books the isd sucks in Vector Prime, the Rejuvenator is killed after its screens are destroyed and is taken out by hundreds of Yuuzhan Vong Coralskippers (fighters), and that's because its shields were taken down to YV gravity tech In these books the ISDs are used in conjunction with proper screens and better fighters (NR X-Wings and such) But the ISD has the room for all this stuff, a Venator could apparently hold 400 fighters (which I call bull, more like 200) with the internal volume of the ISD, it could fit accommodations for 1 legion, 72 ties, and an insane amount of guns SW is different from Earth, ships in space need to be multirole, if you have specialized ships they can be defeated and weaken the whole killing 1 ISD isn't a major blow
@Theonlywatchman211 ай бұрын
I've done a lot of thinking on this topic, probably too much to frank. But, I've come to this conclusion. The Empire should've just iterated upon the Republic's carrier fleet doctrine from the Clone Wars. Introduce a Venator III which would be a dedicated carrier instead of a carrier/battleship hybrid of the previous iterations. Further, I now believe the ISD should've be built as heavy cruiser instead of as a battleship. An improved design meant to replace the rushed wartime design of the Victory class. Meant to work in tandem with the Venator III in a carrier group for naval engagements or working independently in smaller peacekeeping/anti-piracy task forces.
@rigelkent840111 ай бұрын
The Isd is what is would call a medium cruiser a galactic police man not a battling unit ..It never should have been used in death squadron .
@RyanTeeter-lg8jz11 ай бұрын
The ISD was designed as a battleship/transport/carrier Its entire design philosophy was to take out an enemy capital ship, launch enough fighters to delay enemy fighters until said capital ship is destroyed and then possibly invade a planet, for which it had a legion on board The Venator was never meant as the frontline warship for the Clone Wars, it was only due to the delayed development of the Victory (it was NOT rushed) that the Venator became the mainline warship, in combat the Venator was largly reliant on its fighters to take out the enemy, as the ship was under armed in weaponry and shields When the Victory came in in the last year of the war it quickly became the favorite, as its heavier armament was more adept at killing separatist capital ships. some sources state that the Venators production lines were being retooled to make more Victorys The Imperator class was iterated off of the Victory, having its ground complement, fighter capacity, and armament rolled in one ship fast, deadly, and versatile Palpatine renamed it Imperial and made it into the mainline ship its 72 ties were so much that in the Rogue Squadron books fighting a wing is suicide with an Elite X-Wing Squad And as for the lower complement, remember there's a legion along with its motor pool and support stuff, remove that and there's enough room for 300 ties and In legends, the New Republic continued the production of the ISD-2 Class until 40 ABY (when the GAG Anakin Solo was made), with Vessels like Leia's flagship Rebel Dream (Tyrant, the isd ion cannoned in ESB), Wedge Antilles's Mon Mothma, Garm Bel Iblis's Bail Organa all serving with distinction and Ackbar got a new Victory named after hell the Mon mothma, Bail Organa, Elgos A'kla were upgraded with Interdictor tech, being an ISD-3 essentially so i ask Why would the NR keep a bad design in production? after all, all they did different was change ties to X-wings and y-wings your heavy cruiser isd and venator will be too big for anti piracy, to make a real difference make a shitload of Gladiators and Interdictors that would kill rebels, gladiators cost half a venator and a quarter of the isd
@Theonlywatchman211 ай бұрын
@@RyanTeeter-lg8jz Those are fair criticism, I'll acknowledge. I conceded I was mistaken about the details regarding the Victory. And I'd to take the opportunity to better articulate my position and clear up any confusion. Regarding my Venator and ISD combination. It's primary purpose is to counter capital ships still. However, in a manner where combat power is decentralized. With the emphasis more on the Venator's fighter compliment being the primary damage source with the new heaviy cruiser ISD(smaller than its original base model) I envisioned acting as escort that punish any ship that close enough to the Venator. What I failed to mention in my earlier was this combination would be working in conjunction with smaller screening and picket ships. I also failed to mention that the inspiration behind, and the way I envisioned this system working, was similar to a U.S. carrier group. Which is my fault. I stand by my belief of hybrid warships being suboptimal designs. Referring to what you said regarding the canonical ISD. The moment you lose an ISD you've lost the ability to invade a planet, contest ground in space with fighters, and go toe to toe with other capital ships in direct fire engagements. As oppose to if you had three separate ships fully dedicated to a specific role working in combination with one another.
@RyanTeeter-lg8jz11 ай бұрын
@@Theonlywatchman2 Honestly sorry for the long post it kinda just happens by accident, meant to explain how the victory wasn't a rush and did a whole history I do agree that the USN Carrier groups formation can be used in star wars, I will, however, argue that the uses of Venators and ISDs will differ A Venator carrier group could have a Venator with escorts (say a Gladiator and a bunch of smaller screens and corvettes), even though its well thought out, the problem is firepower, as in an engagement with anything bigger than the fighters can take out will kill the group Like a Lucerhulk, which would need 3 groups to kill it An ISD group is more like the USN Battle Group (built around an Iowa class battleship) Its firepower allows it to approach and neutralize an enemy ship while the screens and fighters keep the enemy at bay until the enemy is destroyed, where the remaining enemies will flee, surrender, and be destroyed The NR did this until 40 ABY (books after Legacy of the Force don't have space battles that much) But 100 years after the GFFA does use specialized ships instead of big brawlers (your point on nonhybridization goes wild here) In my frankly insane Star Wars mind, the Empire should have made a Victory 3 with interdictor field generatiors, as its big enough to kill most ships, versitile enough to invade a planet (does have troops on board) and has enough fighters to make a smuggler in a suped up freighter shit his pants This Victory 3 would cost 2/3rds of an ISD ish (regular was half, but the interdiction stuff is expensive) It would cut down on escaping rebel ships and basically make it impossible for the rebellion to function after a while Only one problem The VSD could only hold like 24 Ties, which rebel ships could kill 3 before being killed, so you would need more fighters against a squadron, solution, leave the troops behind, and you likely get another 30 fighters worth of space oh and the hyperdrive and engines will need to be upgraded to go at ISD speeds my only problem with the antipiracy Venator is its huge complement of fighters, you won't need more than 100 fighters
@RyanTeeter-lg8jz11 ай бұрын
@@Theonlywatchman2 one thing to note, In Legends the Venator and Victories were never retired so they were used in antipiracy roles as you mentioned (just not upgraded designs) and in canon the empire straight up scraps the fleet in 5 years
@archiveomnia11 ай бұрын
Some small notes: - Most of the research for this video is based off of Star Wars canon, with certain elements pulled from legends when necessary. 11:55 I should correct myself that there really wasn't much of an issue with how fast TIEs could deploy, as more often than not they are seen deploying quite quickly. My point was more focused towards the fact that ISDs rarely deployed enough TIEs to truly overwhelm rebel forces.
@andyb165311 ай бұрын
Yeah, an ISD could launch its compliment of TIEs in a fraction of the time it'd take a Venator to launch the same number of fighters, that much is true. Still not NEARLY as fast as a squadron of T-65s can hyper in, let loose a volley of torps, and hyper out again. So, the Alliance definitely had the advantage there.
@RyanTeeter-lg8jz11 ай бұрын
@@andyb1653 by the time the Quick reaction force could respond the rebels were long gone thats why they won other then that 99 out of 100 engagments the rebels ran from the ISDs when they showed up
@gamesgonenuts11 ай бұрын
enjoyed the video hitting like on this
@smithjack174111 ай бұрын
Nice video. My two cents cause i love talking about ships. The ISDs are a great logistics platform for being essentially a mobile base and seige/air support. It provides battlefield dominance in one package. It just wasn't being used for what it was built to do and was inefficient for the war it was being used to fight.
@andyb165311 ай бұрын
I really liked the "mobile HQ" aspect of the Supremacy SSD (pretty much the only cool new ship we got in the Sequels). Too bad they blew it up almost immediately after they introduced the damned thing. The Executor at least got two whole movies to cruise around looking tough.
@sinisterisrandom853711 ай бұрын
Probably should mention, later Venator variants had a smaller hangar hatch that could open, from the larger door. Which is meant for smaller vessels. Aside from that you also had a frontal gate that would open meaning there were in total 3 different ways it would send out its starfighters, directly, in small units, or all of them. Aside from that while I do believe the ISD-3 would be a very potent ship. It would not be a very good practical idea. When you try to make something do everything there is always a large quantity of compromises to do so.
@archiveomnia11 ай бұрын
I definitely agree. An ISD-3 would probably be a competent vessel but overall the Empire would have been better off if they had just varied their fleet composition and supported the already existing ISDs.
@sinisterisrandom853711 ай бұрын
@@archiveomnia Bring in imperial redesigns of the Arc-170. BTX-Y-Wing without stripping critical systems. Aside that just bring back a sucessor to the venator since the empire kept trying to fill that gap just bring it back would have made sense.
@sinisterisrandom853711 ай бұрын
The AT-AT isn't a bad vehicle the problem is it was more of a commanding/artillery-based platform rather than a proper main battle walker which the AT-TE back then fulfilled. A lot of vehicles the Empire used could have performed incredibly well had shortcomings been taken seriously and fixed->Lack of shields as an example. Flak and Point defense. It was a very inflexible fighting force with so many problems internally. Had the empire taken what worked in the Republic era and improved on those designs while incorporating them into the Empire then you have a formidable, fearful, flexible yet capable Military force that even the Rebel alliance would struggle against
@speedracer200811 ай бұрын
Tarkin GROSSLY underestimated the resolve of the Rebels. After all, if the Rebels are willing to put themselves in danger to figure out how to destroy the very weapon you plan to use to subdue them, it REALLY should cross your mind that they’ll be willing to fight back, no matter what.
@darkage5 Жыл бұрын
Sorry but no the Emperor would no longer be angry about the Ecclesiarchy being on the High Lords of Terra. He is fully aware of the fact that he has been worshiped as God for the last 10 thousand years. He is also aware of how it has empowered him even further. He has not been idle on the Golden throne. Based on the current lore he is also not the man he was. He has become something else.
@mattheweaton9111 Жыл бұрын
It’s not what failed. It’s the trillions of dumb stupid officers that should have been publicly exicuted for how stupid and incompetent they’re were. Including tarkin. Man blue up 8 star destroyers worth of personnel on scarrif to kill 20 rebels😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Пікірлер
Tarkin failed to understand that ruling through fear is a delicate balance. It's important to not crush the people enough that they begin to hate you more than they fear you. For instance, the destruction of Alderaan. Regardless of Leia's answer, Tarkin decided to blow up a peaceful planet. To the rest of the galaxy, if Alderaan was destroyed on a whim, any one of them could be next. It's the old carrot and stick method--it doesn’t work if you get the stick either way. By that point, why not support the Rebel Alliance if you're going to get nuked just for being in the same city of a troublesome rebel cell?
He should have accepted tie defender program 😭.
Admiral Daala tho
The Tarkin Dogma !
Of course it failed. Far too strict and rips everything away from you that can be a comfort to your soul.
A Galactic Empire ruled by Grand Admiral Thrawn would have been a multinational police force governed by a military code of conduct, not a dictatorship controlled by feuding megalomaniacs.
Wasn't the original trilogy a Vietnam War allegory? The Empire being the US and the rebels being the rag tag group of farmers and everyday men who eventually won.
Я всегда ассоциировал Палпатина с Гитлером или Цезарем, Империя и Республика похожи на Римскую Империю и Римскую Республику
That is correct, George Lucas did say that the Vietnam war and politics of the era were a big part of his initial inspiration. I did mention this briefly near the end of the video but admittedly this video does focus much on the Galactic Empire and it's basis on the Third Reich.
I'm going to pin this just to make it clear. This video is not calling Star Wars fans Nazis. I am certain that 99% of people will understand that, but I figured a small disclaimer wouldn't hurt. The Nazi's were real, The Galactic Empire is not (at least to our knowledge). Hope everyone enjoys this history/Star Wars mash-up!
The Galaxy as it is now is nothing but one big tragedy. An age of progress, science, and reason…corrupted into a dark age unlike anything seen in living memory, where the merest _suggestion_ of independent thought is stamped out and suppressed. A dying man, trapped on a broken throne, and both of them trapped within a dying Galaxy.
The reason why he failed? Well, if anyone noticed, Tarkin was... a psychopath, and we all know Psychopaths love control, and Tarkin? He fit those categories and traits very well, even more so because of how he looked at them. things and even worse if no one could contradict him and even worse if they told him what he wanted to hear, not what he really should have heard. Tarkin was oblivious to everything and since he couldn't feel anything it was more noticeable, let's remember in Clone Wars when he was rescued along with the Master Even Piell, we see how oblivious he was to everything because one thing is to act with professionalism but another is to be apathetic and seem to rejoice at certain ideas that for others would be very bad due to moral issues <:v
Great video, also, is it just me or does this guy sound like MoistCr1tical?
The ISD was a phenomenal peacetime vessel, able to handle pretty much any peacetime mission profile on-the-fly and with minimal adjustment to its loadout. But being a generalist design, it inevitably falls short when put up against any similarly sized vessel that is purely specialized for one role. Against a dedicated battleship in the same size range, the ISD would lose every time. Against a dedicated fleet carrier in the same size range, the ISD's pitiful 72 attack craft is nothing. It is a ship whose entire design philosophy is built around the assumption that it will never face a peer-level opponent.
When playing Rebellion tabletop with expansion, I had a battle in Naboo. Ackbar destroyed 2 SD and Ackbar only lost an X wing squad. It was embarrasing. I found that it is not a great battleship.
I'm such a Chad
Long lasting empires didnt convince their citizens that they would be annihilated if they didn’t work towards the prosperity of the empire- long lasting empires made sure the citizens genuinely cared about the empire they were a part of, because they felt like a part of it. The empire never really tried to become an integrated base for society. It always felt and acted like an occupying army during a war. Rome lasted 1000 years because the people saw themselves as having a Roman identity and cared about the Roman Empire. There’s no pan-galactic identity of any kind towards the empire.
The size of the galaxy requires independent self sufficient units much like BCT’s The failure was the resources wasted on the 2 Death Star projects, those resources could have been applied to upgrading all tie fighters to interceptors or defenders additional support ships as needed based on any given situation And additional star destroyers But really a platform carrying 72 fighters well shielded heavily armed capable of carrying a full garrison of ground pounders with equipment and being able to properly support those ground pounders , there is nothing wrong with it
You got it wrong, the size of the galaxy would encourage the use of specialised ships, not discourage it.
I don't like the video.
I love your video. However, the biggest problem for us Imperials is this, it's a movie that had the cursed rebels winning no matter what because they were supposedly the " good guys". That being shelved for now, here is what a actual Imperial Grand Admiral Council most likely would have done in order to out down this rebellion. First, their were plenty of spies willing to make a lot of Imperial Credits for viable information on where the shipyards are that are building the cursed Xwing fighters. Then you send as many Star Destroyers as it takes to blow them into dust. Then you send as many ISD's as it takes and as many support vessels to destroy the ship building facilities at Ackbars fish planet Mon Cal and decimate the orbital shipbuilding ring where they are building those awful snot looking home one ships. Then fry the oceans of Mon Cal and dare them to defy the Emperor again. Then use any spy necessary to find that traitor Mon mothma and hold the biggest show trial on Coruscant in history to try and draw out some other rebels. Put Grand Admiral Thrawn in Charge of all Military.Operations as he is most definitely the smartest of the Grand Admirals and keep Tarkin in Politics and the running of the Sectors and over sectors, and let him run like ISB if he wants to. The bottom line is the Imperial Navy has to play dirty like the da** rebels did. "DO WHAT MUST BE DONE!" Have Vader do the tracking down with the spies and help do the destruction once they are found. Make it so hard on the rebellion that they will stop. Long Live The Emperor.
Legitimately, like one fuckin Lancer or he’ll even a 2-3 Gozanti’s or raiders would have helped, or just giving the damn TIE fighters ordinance or shields. Or if they’d just used Interceptors instead of LN models
Great video. Keep it up!
Well made vid. Keep them coming!
Great video!
Excellent video! Keep ‘em coming!
Speaking as somebody that has been apart of the SW fandom longer than I suspect a fair number of the newer generstion prequel kiddies and such have been alive, its been imcredibly surreal to watch what are, to be quite frank, fan-generated mythology become so incredibly widespread like this. Whether it be 'AKSHAULLY slugthrowers are a hard counter to Jedi!', to 'AKSHAULLY Vader has a -10 to saving throws against electricity damage!', and, of course, 'AKSHAULLY the Imps were all TEH STTOOPDDIZZ, and Tarkin was the reason the Empire died!'. I'm trying reasonably hard to restrain myself here with my tone, but....None of these ideas have any real validity or basis behind them. There ARE frequently little nuggets of truth behind them, perhaps, but the wisdom of the masses, while sometimes correct, is often in a roundabout way, and in many others isn't right at all. They are pure mythology. And I suppose thats kind of fitting, in a way; its easy to forget that Star Wars was, much like LOTR, intended to be a mythological sort of story, even if that aspect has more or less been entirely lost over time. A grand space opera of epic scale, about the struggles of a small group of people against evil and their own demons. Either way, as always, the response to this stuff always remains the same, so long as SW remains a private, and not public, IP, this isn't true. Slugthrowers dont counter Jedi, Vader isn't secretly an electrical conductor in disguise, and the Empire wasn't really written or intended as or to be drooling invalids. The 'Tarkin Doctrine' is an idea that is only barely mentioned in the source material, and with very little detail, so to have it somehow blamed for the Empire's fall is just...comical. Especially when we...uh, well, already know how and why the Empire fell. Its not very complicated. We even got a whole movie trilogy out of it and everything. Peope dont need to invent stuff like this. We know why it happened; the Emperor took the short way down to the reactor, and died. The End. Well, per EU and such in both canon's we know the Empire proceeded to more or less self destruct and implode afterwards due its utter reliance upon Palpatine for its continued existence, but nevertheless. It all had nothing really to do with TeH SToOpDiZ IMpSs!!.
The Tarkin Doctrine does exist though, yes you can argue it's an over-analyzed idea that doesn't have much direct mention within the actual source material but to be honest that's what makes much of the discussion around it so fun to be apart of. If certain people or groups in the fandom want to take the end of the Empire as it was shown on screen that's completely fine. But there are also other fans who will take a few lines from Tarkin and Palpatine, perhaps cross-reference it with some stuff from the EU, and make videos like this. This video is simply my personal analysis on what I believe to be the Empire's primary strategy of Rule by Fear. And after looking at many of the comments from people genuinely discussing this topic I'm glad I made it.
@@archiveomnia "The Tarkin Doctrine does exist, though...(snip)" It is also, as you proceed to immediately admit, 'an over analyzed idea that doesn't have much direct mention'. Which is still vastly underselling it, tbh (I can actually guarantee to you, with my left nut on the line as payment, that 99% of all people that bring up the concept of the Tarkin Doctrine have zero earthly idea what exactly it is or where it even comes from), but, I digress. "....but to be honest that's what makes so much of the discussion around it so fun to be apart of....' And thats wonderful. But do you not really see any issue whatsoever in spreading what is, for all intents and purposes, misinformation? Sure, it ultimately doesn't really matter; you aren't discussing politics or whatever. But it IS still misinformation. The Tarkin Doctrine, point blank, isn't why the Empire fell, and to say it is, is incorrect. Full stop. And yet, there are literal LEGIONS of people on the Internet that unironically believe it, that the Empire was TEH STOOPODIZ, precisely BECAUSE of KZreadrs like you telling them, and that's that in their minds. It's the exact same case with any infinite number of other incorrect things, either on SW or life in general. A vaguely authoritative figure says something is true about something a person doesn't know much about or overly care about, and accept it as true, no critical thinking or knowledge required. "If certain people or groups in the fandom want to take the end of the Empire as it was shown on screen....(snip)" Well, I mean, no, thats not really how it works. Officially, at least. The end of the Empire as it was depicted on screen IS what happened. Again, SW isn't a open intellectual property (and with Disney at the helm, it never will be). The movies aren't just suggestions. They are the core basis of the entire franchise. They override anything the EU has to say, if need be, no matter how many times its reiterated inside. Although, like I was saying, you obviously seem to be more into/referring to the mythology aspect of SW, the collective aspect of the franchise 'owned', for all intents and purposes, by the people. And thats fine, really. But do keep in mind that such a thing is fickle, at best. A scant decade or so ago, discourse like this literally didn't exist. Its only come to exist because of various many external factors. New generation, new ideas, distance from the original movies, etc. It is 'fanon', in Internet slang.
If it's referenced in official star wars books or material, it's Canon. Period. This kinda gatekeepy jackassery is why I refuse to call myself a star wars fan.
@@beewitha50cal Gatekeeping is good, and infact, is borderline essential, nor does this address anything I said.
@papapalps2415 The fact that you think gatekeeping is good tells me more than enough to know addressing anything you say is a waste of time since lord forbid your precious narrow view of "canon" isn't what dominates discourse on the topic of star wars. You immediately came out the game confrontational with the videos creator, immediately whining how the discourse he discusses is "fanon" and doesn't actually exist apparently, even when it's been featured in multiple prominent star wars novels and media (hint: those are just as Canon as the films) and then basically plug your ears Ignore any attempt at refutation offered by Archiveomnia. And then you act like gatekeeping is a vital service. Fans like you are a cancer to any Fandom and I will no longer address a word you reply with, this conversation is over since you have no interest in actual debate or conversation.
The Tarkin Doctrine is what happens when you apply the logic of a common school bully to an entire government, beating down and intimidating victim's gambling they won't get nerd rage and bite you back. Which it always does.
A ship that was impressive and outstanding for a particular role... just not the role it was utilized in.
Its funny I prefer the EU/Legends evolution of the Star Destroyer line post Endor. The Nebula and Turbulent class lowered the fighter compliment further,but where much more heavily designed to serve as a part of a larger battlegroup. Especially the Nebula, with the Endurance serving as a dedicated fleet carrier while the Nebula was a pure battleship.
It was a "do everything" ship, Ship to ship fights, carrier, and ground assault platform. Unfortunetly it could never do all those duties as well as ships that were dedicated to those specific tasks and that gave it weakness. The exposed bridge and shielding areas made it better for coordinating fighter and ground assaults but made it weaker in Ship to ship combat. Its hanger wasn't large enough to to do massive fighter and ground assualts and it gave an exposed area that lacked armor with the Hanger it did have. If they had given it a proper escort instead of making it system domination weapon it would have done just fine.
I would argue that the ISD was the perfect ship..... for the last war. Like many weapons designed for conflicts in real life, it's designed and built to perfect all the lessons learned in previous conflicts, in this case for the Clone Wars. For a conflict against a large scale, primarily droid using opponent, the ISD is the perfect counter in that it does not rely on strikecraft which would have to contend with disposable droids, and could easily out gun any conventional warship the separatists ever fielded. But upon the advent of new revolutionary multi-role starfighters, such as the x-wing, the dynamics of warfare changed against the effectiveness of battleships like the ISD. Cheap Ties might have worked well against Vulture Droids, or trade with Tridroids, but that era had ended and is unlikely to return.
But the ISD worked fine against the Rebels, lul.
TIEs would have been useless against Vultures and tri droids. The Tector is the evolution of clone wars lessons. A dedicated battleship meant for fleet actions with escorts.
In my opinion the ISD's main failing was that it was pushed into a 'do-everything' role, effectively having to perform the job of 3 republic era ships the Ship-to-Ship of the Victory the Fighter Carrier of the Venator and the ground assault of the Acclamator
it was DESIGNED that way it was kickass in fleet engagements (outside of Endor) Its fighter complement was made smaller due to having an ENTIRE LEGION on board, in the Rogue squadron series the Rogues view it as suicidal to fight an ISD wing alone (with no legion the complement could easily be 400 TIEs) and was successful as heck as an invader to lock down a planet after the war in legends, it continued production until like 40 Aby with ISD-3s (never called ISD-3s but they have internalized interdictors)
@@RyanTeeter-lg8jz that's pretty much what i meant, it seems like it was originally conceived as a pure battleship and then had the other mission capabilities bradley-ed into it before the design entered production. i think what the ISD was originally conceived as ended up being the Tector class
@@MarkoDash In legends, the NR continued making ISDs until 40 ABY and Luke's son Ben was born on the ISD-2 Errant Venture, a mobile smuggler's den owned by Booster Terrick that was also the Jedi temple for a few years The development went like this During the prewar period, the Venators and Victorys were being designed and produced, during reactor tests the Victorys reactor had issues, delaying it until the second year of the war (20 aby) Fun fact Walex Blissex designed the victory while his daughter Lira designed the Venator, Imperial, and Executor classes, Walex later defected to the rebellion building the A-Wing fighter anyways because of it being a cruiser carrier, the Venator, originally intended as the Victories supporting carrier was thrust into the mainline warship role, being under-armed and under armored for this role, most tactics were to launch fighters and stand at long range with covering fire for the fighters, getting in close was suicidal (Victorys would brawl and Venators help with fighters and stuff) The Victory program was delayed as previously mentioned, its rollout in the first 6 months was delayed by a year, resulting in thousands of Venators being used instead, but when they did see combat they quickly became the favoured frontline ship, being a brawler capable of going toe to toe with a Providence class and wining But before the Victory had fired a shot the next design was in the works The Imperator-Class Star Destroyer, a 1.6 km beast with 60 turbolasers, 60 ion cannons, and 8 turrets, 6 turbolaser turrets and 2 ion cannons, and enough space for a wing and a legion on board it was quite literally the most over gunned ship in republic history at that point Due to wartime production being slow to change (Venator production lines were being retooled), the first combat action the Imperators fought in was the battle of Coruscant, and it would take another 20 years to have a huge engagement again where they lost But for the 40 years after Endor, the ISD served with distinction in the Imperial Navy, New Republic Navy, Galactic Federation of Free Alliances (also known as the Galactic Alliance), and even as Booster Terriks dream The tectors development has never been covered as it has had relativly few apperances in media, but Reddit has theorized, along with the Thrawns Revenge team, that it was designed to be the frontline brawler of the fleet, being supported by other Tectors, ISDs and a carrier 1 Tector, 2 Isds and 1 Venator Basically the Republics Lucherhulk killer
@@MarkoDashBut the ISD was always conceived as being versatile, though.
The ISD would have been the perfect ship during the Clone Wars, but it was the wrong ship for the Galactic Civil War.
Uh, it didn't fail. In the new canon, the Imperial fleet soundly crushed the Rebel fleet during the Mid-Rim Offensive. It got so bad that the Rebellion's offensive was later renamed to the "mid-rim retreat". The navy only started failing when they started fighting each other after the Emperor's demise. But given that during the Galactic Civil War, the Rebels and their fleet were running away 9 times out of 10 because of the superior firepower of the Imperial Fleet, that means the ISD did its job well, at least from 19 BBY to 4 ABY. This video's premise is completely flawed. Endor was the occasional fluke that proved the rule.
@@RyanTeeter-lg8jz Exactly. Venators would've been chewed up and spat out by the Rebels. At least the ISDs made them struggle to the point where 9 times out of 10, the Rebel Fleet was running away from the ISDs.
@@HolyknightVader999 if you ever play the game Empire at War, theres a mod called Thrawns revenge, its good, the team made a prequel mod called fall of the republic with accurate ship weapons and hp the number 1 complaint is the venators are too weak and underarmed, which is canon and legends accurate
@@RyanTeeter-lg8jz Exactly. Even in TCW there's plenty of scenes where the Venator seems to be outclassed, or its weapons and systems are shown to be inadequate.
The ISD failing does not mean it was a bad vessel per say. Much of it's failing comes from the doctrine in which it served. That being the Tarkin Doctrine (Which I have a separate video on). In standard ship to ship engagements it was almost unparalleled. The issue is once the rebellion began to understand what the ISD was they exploited it's weaknesses, and due to internal factors within the Empire itself and flawed fleet composition the ISD ended up being an inadequate choice for what the Empire was facing. I will say this much, the ISD did do well for a while in the restraints of the Tarkin Doctrine. But the Tarkin Doctrine itself was flawed and ended up leading to the downfall of the Empire as a whole. I would also like to mention that never in this video did I say the Empire should replace their entire fleet with either the Venator or the ISD-3, that was the entire issue with the ISD's use in the first place.
@@RyanTeeter-lg8jz This channel does not make any money at the moment, and suggesting that I would pour hours of work into a video like this for anything other than expressing my genuine opinion (emphasis on opinion) on Star Wars canon is absurd.
Considering both the New Republic and the Galactic Alliance were mass producing and using ISDs well into the Vong War and beyond, I really don't think the Imperial Class can be considered a "failure"
I am aware that the ISD had a very strong presence well after the Empire in legends. But the majority of this video is based off of canon and it's use during the Galactic Civil War.
The dagger shape of the ISD would make it a phenomenal attack craft. Put dozens of turbolasers into the trenches and the top of the ship, which is also tiered, and they could all fire forward at the same time.
Let it be known that I have been here before this channel blow up to a few thousand subs
The Tie defenders where armed with a pair of warhead launcher, 4 laser cannons and 2 ion cannons. Not 8 laser cannons
New canon they are all 8 laser cannons, Disney doesn't really do warheads in fighter battles.
@@seawind930 they do still list warhead launchers for the canon design. Disney removed the ion cannons and added chin mount cannons. So new design is 8 laser cannons and two warhead launchers. I hate Disneys new BS .
Ive already said my piece under another comment, but for the sake of appeasing the all mighty youtube god known as the "algorithm", ill post this ramble of a comment to show my "engagement" of this "content".
I'll never understand why they had to go and f*ck with the proportions of this ship when they were making Rebels. Seriously, the movie version was damn near perfect, the giraffe-necked version in Rebels makes me irrationally angry every time I see it. I absolutely adored the characters and storylines of that show (best animated SW show by far), but some of the stylistic choices they made are just... baffling (squished TIE fighters and pencil-sabers are also extremely questionable).
To be fair, Rebels animation style was purposely distinct from both the movies and the Clone Wars tv show. Now the I didn't always agree with some of the design choices they made (key ones being the one you listed), but I respect the hell out of them for sticking to it (even as they massacre my boy Hondo). Why? Because it was a beautiful tribute to the man who shape the entire distinct visual style from the beginning, Ralph McQuarrie. Instead of potentially taking the easy road of just playing it safe (and the more so financially smart option) by copying the same art style of last adore and successful animation series, The Clone Wars, they decided to take to take the risk of alienating past audiences just to pay tribute to a man who in my opinion, truly deserves all the credit. Anyway that's my rant over, forgive the poor grammar and sentence structures, I am quite tired from a long day. May the force be with you and such.
@@henrydawson8767 Oh yes, I'm well aware of McQuarrie and Cantwell's contributions to our favorite little space opera. But I've never been one to be blinded by hero worship- it may be an unpopular opinion, but I've always thought that while Ralph, Colin and George were all visionaries in their own right, their work often benefitted from a second opinion. I think the stuff we got on screen often looked BETTER than the concept art, something of a rarity in Hollywood sci-fi. What's especially irksome about the ISD and TIE fighter in Rebels, is that the show is full of OT and CW ships with their original proportions intact. CR90s, Nebulon-B2s, any and all manner of "wings" (A, X, Y and B), TIE Interceptors and Defenders, the Interdictor cruiser, and the Arquitens all make appearances without having their designs altered much.
A fleet made up of ISD III, Interdictor-class ISD, anti-ship frigates, Gozanti-class cruisers, improved TIE wings (multiple variants; placing elite pilots in the Tie Defenders). This would give something TIE noobies to earn towards if they survived long enough. And finally, keep the Acclamator-class assault ship purely for ground troop transport; i.e., AT-ATs, AT-STs, Stormtroopers, etc. I think that would be a solid battle plan.
Why do people love the tie Defender it is very large ,consumes a lot of resorces on the ship much better is the blast boat and it can carry troops .
@rigelkent8401 Because as the Galactic Civil War demonstrated, a fighter with better survivability will outdo fighter swarms of inferior fighters. The days of giant battleships with turbolasers were over before it began. This is extremely similar to the carrier-born attack fighters/bombers' superiority over a battleship (like the Yamato during WW2). If your best pilots are constantly getting waxed, you lose a resource you can't easily replace. Training replacement pilots take time, resources, and experience. Ask Imperial Japan during WWII. The TIE Defender had shields, hyper drive, etc. Regular TIEs had none of that and required a mothership to launch from. Defenders did not. Those are enormous tactical advantages. Blastboats are a gunship. They fulfill a different purpose. And you can't very well land troops if the transports get picked off without support from fighter/interceptor escourt. They are also limited to 4 hyperspace coordinates to jump to in hyperspace. That's pretty limited... Moreover, the blastboat, if you are talking about the fighter GAT configuration, was made from different parts and structures. TIE parts are pretty interchangeable. The more mixed your fleet, the harder it is to maintain (sorry Rebels). "Amateurs talk strategy, professionals talk logistics." - Omar Bradley
The New Republic, and successor state, the GA did continue to produce ISDs late into the second galactic civil war with the commissioning of the Anakin Solo pretty much being an ISD II. it had a advanced starfighter wing, and anti starfighter weapons capability's. It also had a cloaking device, and gravity well generators.
Yeah, Legends really was better wasn't it. In most aspects, anyway.
The Venator was a carrier being used as a battleship and the ISD was a battleship being used as a carrier. 😂
Lmfaoo never realized that before. Is funny.
TBH both ships were meant to be a blend of both things, but yeah neither Government really got the balance right, and both had absolutely shit tactics when deploying/using them to their strengths.
was never used as a carrier it was used as a battleship in most depictions, only in Bacta war was it used as one, and even then its used as a capital ship but it was also a troop transport it had an entire legion capable of locking down a planet if anything your logic should be that the Venator was terrible as a battleship as it was horribly underarmed and underarmored and shielded, during the Clone Wars the production lines were being changed to Victorys and ISDs for that reason Unfortunatly videos like these don't show proper sources, read some sw books and the isd becomes a beast and the New Republic kept building ISDs until 40 ABY and several like the Mon Mothma, Bail Organa, Rebel Dream and Elgos A'kla served with distiction Alongside the Errant Venture, the biggest smugglers ship ever and the biggest ship in the smuggler navy during the vong war, also served as the freakin JEDI TEMPLE and was where Lukes son was born (its an ISD-2 that was captured in Bacta War by Booster Terrick and converted into a mobile port)
@@RyanTeeter-lg8jz I’n the US Navy, Aircraft carriers are the centerpiece of America's Naval forces - the most adaptable and survivable airfields in the world. On any given day, Sailors aboard an aircraft carrier and its air wing come to the fight trained and equipped across a full range of missions. They are ready to control the sea, conduct strikes, and maneuver across the electromagnetic spectrum and cyberspace. No other naval force fields a commensurate range and depth of combat capabilities. They are the centerpiece of the navy around which any and all naval operations are planned and commenced. This is exactly how they used the Star Destroyer. As the centerpiece of their fleet, but the Star Destroyer is only a good carrier of ground troops and was rarely, if ever escorted by a proper fleet.
@@dangerbeans9639 One major difference is US carriers only carry CWIS weapons, they rely exclusively on its complement and escorts for defense The ISD is the equivalent of gluing Two Iowas, an amphibious transport, AND a Carrier together BSGs Galactica is the same (without troops), the fighters hold the enemy off, while the ISD closes and kills the carrier THATS what it is designed to do I'm not denying they don't need an escort, but that's more of the Empire being spread thin, with the normal screens being spread out across star systems as defenders of low priority planets Books the isd performs well in Bacta War Star By Star (if shooting down refugee ships doesn't negate their usefulness during the fall of Coruscant) Rebel Dream Rebel Stand Destinys way Final Proficy The Unifying Force and any book after with the Admiral Ackbar or GAG Anakin Solo books the isd sucks in Vector Prime, the Rejuvenator is killed after its screens are destroyed and is taken out by hundreds of Yuuzhan Vong Coralskippers (fighters), and that's because its shields were taken down to YV gravity tech In these books the ISDs are used in conjunction with proper screens and better fighters (NR X-Wings and such) But the ISD has the room for all this stuff, a Venator could apparently hold 400 fighters (which I call bull, more like 200) with the internal volume of the ISD, it could fit accommodations for 1 legion, 72 ties, and an insane amount of guns SW is different from Earth, ships in space need to be multirole, if you have specialized ships they can be defeated and weaken the whole killing 1 ISD isn't a major blow
I've done a lot of thinking on this topic, probably too much to frank. But, I've come to this conclusion. The Empire should've just iterated upon the Republic's carrier fleet doctrine from the Clone Wars. Introduce a Venator III which would be a dedicated carrier instead of a carrier/battleship hybrid of the previous iterations. Further, I now believe the ISD should've be built as heavy cruiser instead of as a battleship. An improved design meant to replace the rushed wartime design of the Victory class. Meant to work in tandem with the Venator III in a carrier group for naval engagements or working independently in smaller peacekeeping/anti-piracy task forces.
The Isd is what is would call a medium cruiser a galactic police man not a battling unit ..It never should have been used in death squadron .
The ISD was designed as a battleship/transport/carrier Its entire design philosophy was to take out an enemy capital ship, launch enough fighters to delay enemy fighters until said capital ship is destroyed and then possibly invade a planet, for which it had a legion on board The Venator was never meant as the frontline warship for the Clone Wars, it was only due to the delayed development of the Victory (it was NOT rushed) that the Venator became the mainline warship, in combat the Venator was largly reliant on its fighters to take out the enemy, as the ship was under armed in weaponry and shields When the Victory came in in the last year of the war it quickly became the favorite, as its heavier armament was more adept at killing separatist capital ships. some sources state that the Venators production lines were being retooled to make more Victorys The Imperator class was iterated off of the Victory, having its ground complement, fighter capacity, and armament rolled in one ship fast, deadly, and versatile Palpatine renamed it Imperial and made it into the mainline ship its 72 ties were so much that in the Rogue Squadron books fighting a wing is suicide with an Elite X-Wing Squad And as for the lower complement, remember there's a legion along with its motor pool and support stuff, remove that and there's enough room for 300 ties and In legends, the New Republic continued the production of the ISD-2 Class until 40 ABY (when the GAG Anakin Solo was made), with Vessels like Leia's flagship Rebel Dream (Tyrant, the isd ion cannoned in ESB), Wedge Antilles's Mon Mothma, Garm Bel Iblis's Bail Organa all serving with distinction and Ackbar got a new Victory named after hell the Mon mothma, Bail Organa, Elgos A'kla were upgraded with Interdictor tech, being an ISD-3 essentially so i ask Why would the NR keep a bad design in production? after all, all they did different was change ties to X-wings and y-wings your heavy cruiser isd and venator will be too big for anti piracy, to make a real difference make a shitload of Gladiators and Interdictors that would kill rebels, gladiators cost half a venator and a quarter of the isd
@@RyanTeeter-lg8jz Those are fair criticism, I'll acknowledge. I conceded I was mistaken about the details regarding the Victory. And I'd to take the opportunity to better articulate my position and clear up any confusion. Regarding my Venator and ISD combination. It's primary purpose is to counter capital ships still. However, in a manner where combat power is decentralized. With the emphasis more on the Venator's fighter compliment being the primary damage source with the new heaviy cruiser ISD(smaller than its original base model) I envisioned acting as escort that punish any ship that close enough to the Venator. What I failed to mention in my earlier was this combination would be working in conjunction with smaller screening and picket ships. I also failed to mention that the inspiration behind, and the way I envisioned this system working, was similar to a U.S. carrier group. Which is my fault. I stand by my belief of hybrid warships being suboptimal designs. Referring to what you said regarding the canonical ISD. The moment you lose an ISD you've lost the ability to invade a planet, contest ground in space with fighters, and go toe to toe with other capital ships in direct fire engagements. As oppose to if you had three separate ships fully dedicated to a specific role working in combination with one another.
@@Theonlywatchman2 Honestly sorry for the long post it kinda just happens by accident, meant to explain how the victory wasn't a rush and did a whole history I do agree that the USN Carrier groups formation can be used in star wars, I will, however, argue that the uses of Venators and ISDs will differ A Venator carrier group could have a Venator with escorts (say a Gladiator and a bunch of smaller screens and corvettes), even though its well thought out, the problem is firepower, as in an engagement with anything bigger than the fighters can take out will kill the group Like a Lucerhulk, which would need 3 groups to kill it An ISD group is more like the USN Battle Group (built around an Iowa class battleship) Its firepower allows it to approach and neutralize an enemy ship while the screens and fighters keep the enemy at bay until the enemy is destroyed, where the remaining enemies will flee, surrender, and be destroyed The NR did this until 40 ABY (books after Legacy of the Force don't have space battles that much) But 100 years after the GFFA does use specialized ships instead of big brawlers (your point on nonhybridization goes wild here) In my frankly insane Star Wars mind, the Empire should have made a Victory 3 with interdictor field generatiors, as its big enough to kill most ships, versitile enough to invade a planet (does have troops on board) and has enough fighters to make a smuggler in a suped up freighter shit his pants This Victory 3 would cost 2/3rds of an ISD ish (regular was half, but the interdiction stuff is expensive) It would cut down on escaping rebel ships and basically make it impossible for the rebellion to function after a while Only one problem The VSD could only hold like 24 Ties, which rebel ships could kill 3 before being killed, so you would need more fighters against a squadron, solution, leave the troops behind, and you likely get another 30 fighters worth of space oh and the hyperdrive and engines will need to be upgraded to go at ISD speeds my only problem with the antipiracy Venator is its huge complement of fighters, you won't need more than 100 fighters
@@Theonlywatchman2 one thing to note, In Legends the Venator and Victories were never retired so they were used in antipiracy roles as you mentioned (just not upgraded designs) and in canon the empire straight up scraps the fleet in 5 years
Some small notes: - Most of the research for this video is based off of Star Wars canon, with certain elements pulled from legends when necessary. 11:55 I should correct myself that there really wasn't much of an issue with how fast TIEs could deploy, as more often than not they are seen deploying quite quickly. My point was more focused towards the fact that ISDs rarely deployed enough TIEs to truly overwhelm rebel forces.
Yeah, an ISD could launch its compliment of TIEs in a fraction of the time it'd take a Venator to launch the same number of fighters, that much is true. Still not NEARLY as fast as a squadron of T-65s can hyper in, let loose a volley of torps, and hyper out again. So, the Alliance definitely had the advantage there.
@@andyb1653 by the time the Quick reaction force could respond the rebels were long gone thats why they won other then that 99 out of 100 engagments the rebels ran from the ISDs when they showed up
enjoyed the video hitting like on this
Nice video. My two cents cause i love talking about ships. The ISDs are a great logistics platform for being essentially a mobile base and seige/air support. It provides battlefield dominance in one package. It just wasn't being used for what it was built to do and was inefficient for the war it was being used to fight.
I really liked the "mobile HQ" aspect of the Supremacy SSD (pretty much the only cool new ship we got in the Sequels). Too bad they blew it up almost immediately after they introduced the damned thing. The Executor at least got two whole movies to cruise around looking tough.
Probably should mention, later Venator variants had a smaller hangar hatch that could open, from the larger door. Which is meant for smaller vessels. Aside from that you also had a frontal gate that would open meaning there were in total 3 different ways it would send out its starfighters, directly, in small units, or all of them. Aside from that while I do believe the ISD-3 would be a very potent ship. It would not be a very good practical idea. When you try to make something do everything there is always a large quantity of compromises to do so.
I definitely agree. An ISD-3 would probably be a competent vessel but overall the Empire would have been better off if they had just varied their fleet composition and supported the already existing ISDs.
@@archiveomnia Bring in imperial redesigns of the Arc-170. BTX-Y-Wing without stripping critical systems. Aside that just bring back a sucessor to the venator since the empire kept trying to fill that gap just bring it back would have made sense.
The AT-AT isn't a bad vehicle the problem is it was more of a commanding/artillery-based platform rather than a proper main battle walker which the AT-TE back then fulfilled. A lot of vehicles the Empire used could have performed incredibly well had shortcomings been taken seriously and fixed->Lack of shields as an example. Flak and Point defense. It was a very inflexible fighting force with so many problems internally. Had the empire taken what worked in the Republic era and improved on those designs while incorporating them into the Empire then you have a formidable, fearful, flexible yet capable Military force that even the Rebel alliance would struggle against
Tarkin GROSSLY underestimated the resolve of the Rebels. After all, if the Rebels are willing to put themselves in danger to figure out how to destroy the very weapon you plan to use to subdue them, it REALLY should cross your mind that they’ll be willing to fight back, no matter what.
Sorry but no the Emperor would no longer be angry about the Ecclesiarchy being on the High Lords of Terra. He is fully aware of the fact that he has been worshiped as God for the last 10 thousand years. He is also aware of how it has empowered him even further. He has not been idle on the Golden throne. Based on the current lore he is also not the man he was. He has become something else.
It’s not what failed. It’s the trillions of dumb stupid officers that should have been publicly exicuted for how stupid and incompetent they’re were. Including tarkin. Man blue up 8 star destroyers worth of personnel on scarrif to kill 20 rebels😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂