Sources (because KZread doesn't like lentghy scholarship in vid descriptions): [Weapon laws in Low Countries] - Glaudemans, Corien, Om die Wrake Wille. Eigenrichting, veten en verzoening in laat-middeleeuws Holland en Zeeland (Hilversum, 2004). [Knifemakers in Nürnberg] - Keller, Kurt, Das messer- und schwertherstellende Gewerbe in Nürnberg von den Anfängen bis zum Ende der reichsstädtischen Zeit (Nürnberg 1981) [Weapon laws in German cities] - Koppenhöfer, Bastian, hemaisok.blogspot.com/2021/09/ungewoenliche-lange-messer-weapons.html?m=1&fbclid=IwAR3VzYxIXd_FvcOfi5M9KdxjXfvNmz2Z3BohtSEaafw9LX6l9queqvc8wTo (14-09-2021) [Weapon laws in Antwerp] Pye, Michael, Antwerp; the glory years (London 2021) [Weapon laws in German Cities] - Tlusty, B. Ann (ed.), Augsburg during the Reformation Era. An anthology of sources (Cambridge 2012). - Tlusty, B. Ann, The Martial Ethic in Early Modern Germany. Civic Duty and the Right of Arms (Hampshire 2011) [Knifemakers building fencing weapons] - Vodička, Ondřej, martcult.hypotheses.org/322, (21-05-2021) [discussions on the origins of the messer and typologies] - www.reddit.com/r/SWORDS/comments/50p3kf/falchionmesser_my_thoughts_on_the_elmslie/ (15-08-2021) - www.reddit.com/r/SWORDS/comments/4z6sfa/elmslie_typology_of_single_edged_medieval_swords/ - Lecture given by Ádám Bodorics and Airton Péter Szabó at Autumn Messer Meeting 2019

@gustavmeyrink_2.0

2 жыл бұрын

The distinction between sword and knife is quite simple at least in German military officialese. In Germany bladed weapons fall into two main categories: 1) Schwerter und Dolche (swords and daggers); 2) Messer und Säbel (knives and sabres). A Schwert or Dolch has a straight and double edged blade while a Messer or Säbel has a usually curved and single edged blade. That is all there is to it. For example in the 19th century the German army had Faschinenmesser (also called Pioniersäbel). It was a short, stout weapon used to build ramparts. The French army had what in Germany is called a Pionierschwert. Basically the same thing in built and size but double edged and therefore a Schwert. The only exception to that rule I know about is the Katana which after long discussions was classed as a Schwert despite it's blade defining it as a Messer/Säbel. Germans are a bit funny with their Officialese but those are the official definitions. They include nothing about how the item is made, it is purely about the blade. The main takeaway is that in the German language a sabre or Messer is NOT a type of sword but a type of bladed weapon. Bladed weapons themselves are a type of 'Blankwaffe' which could be translated as 'pure weapon' meaning it does not used stored (think bow and arrow or crossbows) or chemical energy (ie guns).

Dang, this is an excellent video. Scholagladiatoria shared this on Facebook, so I expect to see a fairly large influx of views. You certainly deserve more subs.

@VirtualFechtschule

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks! Here's to hoping! :D

03:37 also in Transylvania at Medias History Museum I saw a beautiful collection of some kind of messers exhibed as "hunting swords".

Thanks for all the responses so far! I really like that people are coming forward with additional information and insights. :D I might do a follow up video on this later, especially since talking about trade networks and their influence on the geographical spread might be worth digging deeper into. For the rest, spot an inaccuracy or something I missed? Keep it coming, and I'll address it then as well! :)

@killerkraut9179

2 жыл бұрын

Who Produced Daggers like Rondel daggers ?

@VirtualFechtschule

2 жыл бұрын

@@killerkraut9179 that would differ from city to city, but iirc in Nürnberg that would be both schwertfeger and messerer. They generally had some quota of how many they were allowed to produce and with what materials. Sollingen and Passau had different arrangements though, so this is a whole next direction of research. :)

@killerkraut9179

2 жыл бұрын

@@VirtualFechtschule ok

I'm late to the party, and am certainly not an expert on this; but I believe "Hanger" was a term that would be applied to what we might commonly refer to as falchions and messers. Considering that the difference between a falchion and a messer seems to mostly just be the hilt construction, that makes sense. The nature of the blade and perhaps it's associated ease of carry seems to have been the focus.

Hey all, professional knife and sword smith here- I love the guild argument, but that is something that may need more proof. However, something you said about the disproportionate number of knifesmiths to sword polishers- it makes me think that some knifesmiths said "how can we stand out in this business?" And started making longer knives to feed the demand for side arms. And as they would be cheaper, they could tap into a higher demand market for less money. VERY rough estimate, based on how long it takes me to make stuff, a Messer would be around 60 to 70 percent the price of a sword.

As to the last point on why messers were so popular, the knifemaker as supplier to fechtschule is interesting but I feel you're missing the obvious: messers are just a great design for what they need to do. Easy to wear, little bit of hand protection, single-edge so easier to maintain and you've got that thick spine for parries, displacing, and, you know, just smacking a fool who needs learning but not cutting. They're also kind of instinctive to use; as the supposed Chinese quote goes, '1000 days to master a dao (which is to say, knife, or messer), and 10,000 days to master a jian'. Plus they look cool. If you ask me, the question isn't why were messers so popular, it's why did anyone bother with anything else?

@VirtualFechtschule

2 жыл бұрын

I mean, we both know that messers are superior to all other weapons, but to the medieval person, what makes it better than a sword? All of the things you talk about are true, but why go to the knife-maker to buy one? This will all have certainly played a role, but I'm not sure it was as important a factor as the fact that knifemakers were pretty much everywhere and their stuff was easily accessible.

@josepandreu7448

2 жыл бұрын

@@VirtualFechtschule Because a Messer is cheaper to make and also sturdier than a sword - that's the beauty of single-edged blades.

@harjutapa

2 жыл бұрын

@@VirtualFechtschule I'm wondering if they were cheaper, as well, at first due to prestige and then, as they got more popular, because of economy of scale.

@hotspurre

2 жыл бұрын

One of the things I like to say is "Q: What is the best weapon for self-defense?" "A: The weapon you're actually wearing when you're attacked." Sure, a longer weapon can definitely give you an edge in a one-on-one fight, but unless you're a gentleman of leisure, wearing a long weapon *all the time* is going to get in the way of your day-to-day life. On the other hand, a shorter blade you can strap to your waist and literally forget about until you need it - what's more it may be useful in your day to day life for mundane tasks like cutting rope, brush, etc.

@j.f.fisher5318

6 ай бұрын

And never underestimate the power of fashion.

For middle Europe 'tasak' is quite tricky because it can relate to similar weapons with both messer handles and classical sword handles (basically it can refer to both messer of falchion). It doesn't help that in modern Polish 'tasak' means just a meat cleaver :/

@VirtualFechtschule

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah, tassack becomes super muddled during the 16th century in the rest of Europe as well, and the term messer became subject to similar blurring disctinctions as well.

@gabrielpottebaum5249

2 жыл бұрын

Do you have any sources for this?! I'd love to look into it more!

Great video! As modern people, we like simple and convenient answers - this one thing lead to the development of this weapon. It makes for a good story. The truth is almost always more complicated, and I like that you stress that the best explanations are plausible rather than conclusive. Most likely these are factors that led to the development of the messer, rather than the single cause. I don't find it unlikely at all that a knife-maker would make a sword using techniques that they knew and were skilled at, rather than following the standard through-tang method...

@VirtualFechtschule

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks! The answers here are indeed probably multi-faceted, and that's how I like them. :)

I’ve been a fan of the Guild argument, and I would love more data and research in that field. I have an inkling based off some other text evidence I’ve come across here and there, such as a bascinet being referred to as being specifically from London in an inventory, that there were concrete differences between manufacturing centers that medieval people could readily detect. I’d like to know how the guild production standards and practices differ from place to place in producing arms and armour, and how people thought about those differences, if at all.

@VirtualFechtschule

Жыл бұрын

That would be an excellent PhD. Or rather, an entire research project with several PhD's involved. It would be pretty awesome though. :D

I have a Tinker Longsword and a Cold Steel messer. If knew I was headed for a fight I would bring the longsword. For every day carry I'd take the messer, a very practical weapon that can also serve for brushcraft or even meal preparation, just like a large Bowie knife, my go to for brushcraft.

@VirtualFechtschule

Жыл бұрын

Makes a lot of sense! Long sword scabbards tend to get in the way a lot more than you would like, unles you have a two point suspension system.

I'm of the opinion that around 1400-1500 there is a great change in social and economic structures that demands more social status items. Cities become great generators of wealth and prosperity and gain rights and privileges to the point that they are major entities with new social classes and wealth. Even a modest peasant would be more prosperous than was considered possible a century or two earlier. If there are weapon carry laws that means these were widespread and we know that the moment people have some measure of disposable income they will use it for social display. So the messer is simply a social indicator, just like today an accountant in Boston drives a big Ford truck just to get that "blue collar cred" that is so fashionable today, while the same person in 1965 would have killed to get a Cadillac and look like Frank Sinatra and the Rat Pack. And it's demand that shapes production. People want the bigger and nicer messer and some go for the big scary types in a "Keeping up with the Joneses" way. From this perspective the messer goes from a tool and potential self defence into a proper side-arm to show that while you are not a proper aristocrat, you certainly have some importance in the world.

@VirtualFechtschule

2 жыл бұрын

This is very true and will have played a role to a certain extent. A couple of questions you might want to account for if you're going to look into this further: Why didn't this occur earlier? Cities and a self-aware citizenry were not new around 1400, so why do messers come onto the scene now? Why not a sword? The demand for sidearms going up is pretty clear, as is the growing importance for long distance trade when it comes to blades and finished weapons, but why buy a messer if you could also buy a sword? What caused a weapon with initial low-class connotations to become so popular among the more well-off as well? Let me finish by saying that the idea has a lot of merit. Fashion and status are dimensions of the popularity of the messer that bear some more looking into, but the scope of that is also going to be pretty huge. Additionally, we'd be dealing with problems with sources, since people didn't generally committed such ideas to paper. It's definitely something I'll be diving into further though. :)

I've been waiting for this one!

Well said. Also i would add that if one wanted they could almost include certain Bowie knives here in the USA, Mexico & SA. Especially certain iterations of the Confederate Bowies from the Civil War as well as Machete South of the border. Most of these places you will find a heavy German presence & therfore influence.

Fascinating! Thank you!

Great video! Very informative and well researched! I'd love to know more about the messer/sword you hint at, at 1:20 . Is it a reproduction of a specific original piece? I've only ever seen something similar in pictures from Palazzo Ducale in Venice, but I don't know their origin and context of use.

@VirtualFechtschule

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks! The Sidekatzmesser behind me is an amalgation of originals in indeed the Palazzo Ducale and the Wallace collection, with the hilt design being copied from 'David and Abigail' by Jacob van Oostsanen. The context of their use is still a mystery, but it appears to me that they were something of a transitional model between arming sword on one hand and sideswords/katzbalgers on the other.

@zerozerosud

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you! I'm always interested in this kind of hybrids or transitional pieces. By googling a bit it seems that Boccia/Coelho, 1975 has more examples. Are you already aware of this other hybrid that goes in the opposite direction - sidesword hilt with a messer blade and handle - at the Bayerisches Nationalmuseum? (First picture) m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=231210772338218&id=100063478901081

My opinion has always been price. The growth of popularity among nobility is probably because it looks cool.

@VirtualFechtschule

Жыл бұрын

I think that might have been a huge factor. The popularity among the nobility is another thing altogether, but I'm not even sure if that was the entire nobility, or just Maximilian being super interested in fencing (therefore messer too) and other super rich people wanting to emulate him. It's a very interesting question and I should totally try to dive into it. :)

@j.f.fisher5318

6 ай бұрын

Once it was established among soldiers based on price, some nobles will want to look tough and get them. And probably have them etched and gilded like modern waxed and polished, blinged-out SUVs.

What is the source of picture at 16:00? Very interesting video btw, thank you for the analysis :)

@VirtualFechtschule

2 жыл бұрын

It's a depiction of the so-called Schlacht im Walde and the link is in the description. :)

@thespadoneproject5352

2 жыл бұрын

@@VirtualFechtschule thank you, I missed the link!

For the point, how the Messer came into being, I also see the possibility, that it just came that way. Since there already are shorter Messer, like the Rugger and Bauernwehr, and the variation of swords also is quite, ehm, various, I can't see a point, speaking against a customer, going to the knifemaker saying "hey, just make me a Bauernwehr, but and inch longer", the next customer saw it and ordered an longer and slimmer Bauernwehr as well, and the third customer saw, that there are more techniques possible with this longer and slimmer, and so on, and suddenly there was a Langes Messer. Just more an evolution than a planned thing.

@VirtualFechtschule

2 жыл бұрын

That makes some sense! So you're basically saying that an evolution from utility knives to fighting knives could have taken place very slowly. This would be super tricky to prove, but it makes a lot of sense, especially given the huge amount of knifemakers and the huge export by cities like Nürnberg to spread the Messer to other places.

@LukasVos

2 жыл бұрын

@@VirtualFechtschule it hasn't to take a long time. I'm working with books from pre 1500 and post 1500, and there is for both a very distinct style. Pre 1500 the book covers are usually dark brown, have a lot of small single stamps pressed in, the boards are cut in a special way, etc. And a lot of books bounds a bit after 1500 look quite the same. And around 1520 "suddenly" they used light, nearly white leather, the wood is thinner and carved in a different way, and instead of many small stamps with space between, the covers are covered completely with big stamps in the middle and rolling stamps around that, with no space between. First I thought, that it was like a switch. Someone decided to make a totally different book type, what trended and became mainstream. But after some time I found more and more transitional styles and style elements. Dark leather with big stamps, light leather on thick boards, etc. It was more an evolution, maybe over 20(?) years. And so I thought, it also could have happen in a some similar way with the Messers. Someone tried something new with an old concept, he tried more, someone else copied, and so on. The "evolution" of the bullock dagger from peasant's utility knife to burgher's prestige dagger like Tod described in a video, also has a similar idea. But yes, it's hard to prove. But at the same time the other theories, like guild's order, should be able to be proven a bit easier. If there was f.e. a dispute in Nürnberg because a knife maker made a sword, there should be at least some records, somewhere.

@VirtualFechtschule

2 жыл бұрын

20 years is a long time on a human lifespan, but not too long on a bigger timescale, true! It might have been a decade or so development in some German cities, such as Nürnberg, after which the export networks would have spread it quickly to the rest of North-Western Europe and Eastwards as well. I can see this happening. As for proving the Guild Hypothesis, unfortunately public record keeping before 1450 tends to be super lackluster, so any disputes from that time might have been lost. It's not coincidence that Keller has far more data from 1500 onwards. I have some hopes that revisions of the knifemakers' charter might give some information, but that would take a trip to Nürnberg and some time in the archive to figure that out.

@EmilReiko

2 жыл бұрын

I would argue that a Bauernwehr is a messer of any size when in the hands of a peasant

@VirtualFechtschule

2 жыл бұрын

@@EmilReiko yes, this is pretty much how the term was used historically. It would probably also have included flails, axes and any other weapons a peasant would carry.

Interesting! Thanks for sharing:-)

@VirtualFechtschule

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks! :D

For me the answer is easy. Messers are just the best European swords, and I have no biases whatsoever!

@VirtualFechtschule

Жыл бұрын

And this very unbiased channel will say that you're completely right about that. ;)

My guess is it was simply a case of a customer needs a weapon and goes to whoever is available. Knife makers make messer because that's the style and method they are familiar with. Sword makers make a sword for the same reason. More knife makers than sword makers mean more messers. Messer are popular in those areas because they are more available. Simply a guess.

I'm sceptical of the messer reaching the british isles. We seem to have been "difficult" here and adopted our own equivalents. But it is definitely wider-spread than your map at 2:59 - I know of Icelandic messers pushing it further west, and Slovenian, Croatian and Serbian messers are quite common too, and messer-related forms are found all the way through Romania and Bulgaria into Ukraine.

@VirtualFechtschule

2 жыл бұрын

Cool! Thanks for the elaboration. So do you think the further spread into the Balkans and Iceland might have been due to export from German cities, considering what we know of the huge knife-making industries there?

@j.g.elmslie9901

2 жыл бұрын

@@VirtualFechtschule for Iceland, almost certainly yes, due to the Hansa trade routes. I expect many of those going east were shipped along the Danube.

@VirtualFechtschule

2 жыл бұрын

I figured as much! Thanks! :D

@zerozerosud

2 жыл бұрын

@@j.g.elmslie9901 Very interesting, do you know where I could find pictures or more info on these balkan messer? I imagined that the northern parts of Italy and the Balkans would have some germanic influence but I've never encountered a piece from those areas that screamed "messer" to me, except maybe the sword at 4:04 .

..yknow, i get the feeling that.. it was just.. down to personal preference.. some people just decided they liked their baunwehrs overall look but wanted something bigger weve had big blades with handle scales for centuries prior to the messer so.. why not just have it be a evolution of that.. half of the stuff in europe seems to be a thing of 'they just liked it that way'

Making a messer blade should be also cheaper than making a sword blade. Thick back, tapering only one side, vs tapering on both sides. A shape possibly more forgiving to the steel quality. Less sharpening work as well. Although it is better to ask the blacksmiths. I believe someone once mentioned there was not that much difference, but I do not remember the person.

@VirtualFechtschule

2 жыл бұрын

I think I read that thread on redit as well. The thing to consider is that we do know that knifemakers' charters often specified quality control. One of the things we learn is that most bigger knife types would be made from iron, with a steel cutting edge. If we really want to know functional differences in production, we need to find out what those requirements meant exactly for both swords and knives and then put it to the test with experimental archaeology (that'd be so cool! :D). Observations based on modern forging techniques can help, but in this case certainly won't be conclusive.

For my two cents, Im not sure “invented” is the right word. I always assumed it evolved. Long or fighting knives have a storied history which makes invention seem an odd notion. Also, great video. Thank you for sharing!

@sirxarounthefrenchy7773

2 жыл бұрын

Maybe messers are the evolved, longer cousins of germanic seax ? Don't have any proof to back this up just my two cents

In the hansemuseum (basically the baltic commerce guild museum) in Lubeck they told me the messers were sold by the knifemakers guild who weren't allowed to make knives and therefore started making sword sized knives to encroach on the swordmakers guild buisness. That whole thing apparently caused a lot of trouble for a time...

@VirtualFechtschule

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, that pretty much aligned with the guild hypothesis based on Nürnberg. I would be curious if they have any local sources about it though! :D

So holy crap language! In Russian "tesak/tisak" basically means the same thing, large single edged chopping/cutting knife.

@VirtualFechtschule

2 жыл бұрын

Nice!

@killerkraut9179

2 жыл бұрын

There is a word in german or Austria Dussack

@VirtualFechtschule

2 жыл бұрын

@@killerkraut9179 it becomes really popular in the 16th century, co-existing with messer for a long time: Meyers talks of the dussack and Sollinger talks of messer a few years later, despite being similar fencing wise. :)

Its interesting to me, that the German Wikipedia article Langes Messer claims the exact opposite of your claims. Regareing the Guilds it claims, that most cities did not have two different Guilds for Schwerter and Messer. It only cites one example in which a Schwertfeger needed to make both Schwerter and Messer in his Meisterprüfung. It claims the Social component is much more likely, since there was a difference between Bürgern ( free citizens of cities) and Bauern (Farmers, or as english speaking youtube seems to call them "peasants", who were very much not free, thus the Bauernkrieg at the end of the 16.th century). While Bürger were legally obliged to carry Schwerter, Bauern were Prohibited. They were only allowed to carry Lange Messer. Unfortunately the article does not really cite any sources here. One interesting aspect is the development of the Lange Messer from the Bauernwehr. Which seems to imply the connection between Bauern and the Lange Messer.

@VirtualFechtschule

Жыл бұрын

Quite interesting indeed, thanks for bringing it up! :D I looked through that wiki article when researching for this video and indeed discarded some of the information because it didn't cite sources or made some claims counter to pretty solid scholarship by Kurt Keller. When it comes to your points here: I think there will definitely have been places where there's not two guilds, but according to Keller, the places that had a big knifemaking industry and exported the majority of knives (potentially throughout the entire region where messers were used) did have seperate guilds / professions. As for the clear distinction between Bürger and Bauern, I'm not buying that, and here's why: there will likely have been laws to this effect, but the stratification of society was more complex in both the city and the countryside in reality (just like sumptuary laws are not reliable sources for what people were buying in reality). Granted, on the countryside messers will have been more prevalent, but they were likely almost as prevalent in cities. We see burghers with long knives all the time and Lecküchner teaches fencing with messer, and not sword. So, with that in mind, class distinctions don't seem to explain well why messers were popular. And I honestly think that economics provide more compelling explanations. The link between bauernwehr and messer is interesting, but I can't find any serious scholarship on this. So we need someone to do a PhD on this, or someone to point us to someone who already did. I will probably revisit the topic and do a follow-up video soon though, adressing some more points like the ones you pointed out.

@leichtmeister

11 ай бұрын

The problem with this theory is: It is just stupid on so many levels, it is one of the rare instances in which "they weren't stupid back then" is applicable. I mean...seriously...as if a society would be that dense.

In Poland We have beauty word means langesmesser: "kord" :)

@VirtualFechtschule

2 жыл бұрын

I know that one, as well as dlugi nosz. I'm just not sure whether that was the original term as well.

@umartdagnir

2 жыл бұрын

Which later moved into Lithuanian as "kardas" - a term for sabre.

Important. The Messer is the white arm in the western hemisphere with the most myths and bs surrounding it ^^ Even repeated by people who should know better.

What can I do for you today "MESSER"? (is it that a case?)

maybe the messer is an development of the seax?

@VirtualFechtschule

2 жыл бұрын

Given that seax literally means 'knife' and that the seax too ranged massively from small by-knives for in the kitchen to sword length weapons, this is true to some extent. However, there is no direct link between this situation in the 8th century and this similar situation in the 15th and 16th. This rather seems to be convergent evolution.

@brittakriep2938

Жыл бұрын

I think, the billhook is descendant of seax. In a large article about this tool in german language, was written, that in some regions of Switzerland ( or Black Forrest?) the billhook is called ,Seisle', ,Säxlein' ( little seax) in current german. But i don' t know , if this is true.

Also found and used in Hungary, and why are you using a modern nation-states map, rather than a historically relevant one??

@VirtualFechtschule

2 жыл бұрын

Well, if you want to know, finding a map that is free to use and has the right and accurate borders for about 1400-1550 (they changed a lot) proved somewhat tricky. I might have found something, had I put more effort in it, or I could have something made. I'm neither made of money and time though, so this had to do. Apart from that, Hungary sounds like something I should look into, so thanks for pointing me in that direction. :)

@tanterouge4339

2 жыл бұрын

@@VirtualFechtschule I know the problem, many times it's just easier to scrub through the timeline of Europa Universalis and take a screenshot. How well sourced is such a historic snapshot of borders? Well, good enough with caveats I think considering the alternative :D

@VirtualFechtschule

2 жыл бұрын

@@tanterouge4339 I did actually make a better one later, so I'll get back to this video at some point and rectify that rather ehm... Unfortunate aesthetic choice. XD