"Where's the Doppeldsoldner?!" "What is a Doppelsoldner?!""Why is a Doppeldoldner?!", but nobody ever asks "Doppeldsolder, how are you?"

@ArgentumFox

Жыл бұрын

Dead... they are dead. That's why you don't ask them question directly, let the poor bastards rest in peace!

@VirtualFechtschule

Жыл бұрын

XD

@JosipRadnik1

5 ай бұрын

give a heart to the Doppelsoldner 🥰😂😂

@majintab7710

5 ай бұрын

@@JosipRadnik1 also because he has already taken any other valuable you might have 😂

@forickgrimaldus8301

4 ай бұрын

"My God, did you see Hans' head flying pass" "Oh the Horror, Rush me to God's Embrace" "I didn't take the Emperor's Coin for this" "Mind their Gold, they Hoard it you know" "A Gold Coin for every man that lives" - Landskenect

In regards to qualifying as a doppelsoldner, I can't believe you failed to mention a critical point. During muster, prospective soldiers would be judged by their peers based on the quality of their hats. Only those with a sufficient style could get double pay. The practice had originated in the late 15th century, when landsknecht mercenaries would fight over who was the best looking. It was a William Katzenberger (or Katz to his friends) who came up with a solution. Men would walk down a strip, where their peers stood around, marvelling and judging intensely. While the rules were admittedly slack, Katzenberger's proposal was so popular that it quickly became a standard part of muster. To maintain a high sense of style among the Landsknecht, a higher wage was given to the well-dressed. After all, looking good while fighting was of extreme importance, and intimidated anyone with a poor fashion-choice. And thus, it also gave birth to the modern-day catwalk.

@VirtualFechtschule

Жыл бұрын

Hahaha, nice! This really had me in stitches reading it. :D

3:48 the inscription of the blade(part of it is cut off but its still pretty easy to identify) "all mein geld verspielt" means "ive gambled away all my money" which i find amusing

It's interesting that a lot of the bad reputation that mercenaries get comes from the same sketchyness in terms of getting their pay and rations disrupted that does and historically did also happen to national military forces under incompetent and leaders and politicians.

@VirtualFechtschule

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, there's a lot of continuïty in warfare before 1800 and this is definitely one of them. :)

I like the term Armed Union, in Danish history we have quite a number of landsknecht strikes because of disagreements about payment. They even took hostages

After seeing that cat steal theat guilder, I can REALLY appreciate the term "Katzbalger".

Great video, way too many people seem to have that idea of a doppelsöldner having a Greatsword and slaying the pikemen in a frontal charge. I want to add that the Term Doppelsöldner seems often to have been used for the pikes in the first rank or who cover the flanks of the formation ofc like you said heavily armoured. However despite them often not being listed as Doppelsöldner the halberds and greatswords were still paid the double pay. The forlorn hope seems to be a romanticised from what i found in older history books. Reality it seems was that they were simply scouts and skirmisher at the same time that should find out the weaknesses of the enemies Formation. Sometimes they were sent in to distract the cannons so that the enemy would need to send in soldiers to protect their cannons making them useless. Its mentioned that this wasn't so dangerous since they were loosely running toward them and the cannons were inaccurate. This was also done later on. Another job would be that after the clash of the pikes they would support them from the flanks. Regarding the beating away the pikes. What you have mentioned with the halberds is also supported by Lavater. He also mentioned big clubs for that purpose and puts them on the flanks to each side. I do think that a great sword could pull it off too since its implied that technically any weapon was able to cut pikes at least. Apparently it also seems greatswords were used for many specialised jobs since they were used in a lot of positions during the 16 and early 17th century not only guarding banners but most writers are frustratingly unclear about the details. And i agree so much on the Meister des langen Schwertes. My research indicates that it was mostly veteran soldiers or more importantly know how to use them. The source for Meister des langen Schwertes seems to come from one of the older german books. My guess is that since its required someone experienced or trained that they simply put it equal to having the Letter of the Marxbrüder. just my thoughts on that as someone who is really interested in that topic.

One additional role/purpose I've heard about for Doppelsöldner was as a guard for the company's standard, which tended to go to those with halberds or greatswords in particular. This would've been both a prestigious as well as a practical role. They'd generally be located around the standard near the centre of the formation where they'd, well, guard the standard. But in addition to that, from there they could also serve as a quick and impactful tactical reserve for when things devolved into a bad war, or if an opening presented itself in the enemy formation.

@VirtualFechtschule

2 жыл бұрын

That's a good addition, thanks! It kinda fell by the wayside for this video, but now that you mention it, it does illustrate that better equipment and special jobs are often correlated. :)

@Bergstein400

2 жыл бұрын

I believe my ancestor Adam Näf served in that role during the second war of Kappel. He used a great sword to prevent the Catholic forces from capturing the standard

From my understanding, heavily armored soldiers with relatively short weapons (halberd, pollaxe, great sword, etc) performed very well against pikemen. They could shrug off most hits from a pike without issue and close in where a pike’s length becomes disadvantageous.

@VirtualFechtschule

10 ай бұрын

They do, but mostly when the pikemen are already engaged by your friendly pikemen.

Forlorn Hopes were not usually 'suicide squads', they were not meant to fight to the death, but typically to make contact. They did not engage pike squares. The forlorn hope was often mostly comprised of shooters, the halberdiers and two-hand swordsmen were there to protect the shooters. They were also used to attack other forlorn hopes and small formations, or for example to both attack or protect banners.

@VirtualFechtschule

Жыл бұрын

True, but you are talking about later 16th century battles I think. There's some rather pervasive myths about Doppelsöldner with greatswords performing such attacks in battles during the Italian Wars (despite lack of evidence), so that's the myth I'm addressing here. :)

@codexintegrum

Жыл бұрын

No, I'm not just referring to later 16th Century battles, as Forlorn Hopes pre-date the Landsknechts by at least a century. My only point here is to try to correct the notion that the forlorn hope was disposable. I think this is an oversimplification which has knock-on effects in understanding war in this period, and specifically the Landsknechts (and the idea of doppelsoldner). Only in some very specific cases were the Forlorn Hope ever used this way. It was always a riskier job to go out in the smaller formations (of which there were at least two distinct types- shooters and battlers), but it was not normally a suicide mission. They played an important role as a kind of sensory organ to the larger formations (vorhut, gewalthut, nachhut) in Central and North European armies of this period. This was part of the Swiss strategy which was copied to create the Landsknecht companies, but was also in wide use by many polities throughout Central Europe back into the 14th Century at least.

I know this is a little later, but thank you so much for attributing the art! It’s so interesting and I’ve been looking for all kinds of striking prints for my medieval/early modern-themed game room! You are just grand! Again thanks!

One line of thinking that is useful in debates like these is thus: 1) doppelsoldner means you get double pay, 2) there are several ways to get that double pay (e.g. equipment, special role, veterancy, possibly being a fencing master), 3) the pay increase doesn't stack. That means there will be significant overlap - you do want your bodyguards to be well-armored and skilled fencing masters if at all possible. Conversely, if you have someone who is a fencing master fallen on hard times, you may well pay him double because you anticipate he will use a good chunk of that cash to get himself better equipment. In the end, your ideal situation is to have a doppelsoldner who is in a specialized battlefield role, while being a fencing master, while having a good set of armor and weapons - but in a pinch, one of those will do. This is more than just semantics because it can explain a lot of special cases - if you have a muster and not enough people show up with good equipment, you will have some doppelsoldners who you think are just solid lads in specialized roles. If you have a lot of people with good gear, then you will be asking for certificates (or maybe even testing them yourself) to select which ones will get the double pay - which will probably mean a lot of people with that good gear will get up and leave for a different company. This is the renaissance we're talking about - while it isn't as much of a wild chaos as the medieval period, we are still very, very far from formally defined roles and regulation equipment.

as far as I know "übler Krieg" bad war means that you do not take anyone alive. It happend a lot when Landsknechte and Eidgenossen met on Battlefield like the Swiss war

In case of "Bad War" situation, highly skilled squad could be sent to crack enemy line at weaker point using trained coordinated tactics, or to block enemy breakthrough before it turns into total rout. Also, someone had to react on enemy cavalry attacks at flanks or back.

@VirtualFechtschule

Жыл бұрын

Theoretically, you'd have the centre of the square with such a squad, but it would mostly be greatswordsmen and halbardiers interspersed through the front lines that would seize upon the situation. As for cavalry flanking, at first this was generally prevented by using favourable terrain, but with increasing numbers of shooters on the flanks, pike blocks would generally be able to repel cavalry quite easily.

Good stuff. I tend to agree that equipment was the main factor when recruiting Doppelsöldneren. However, I'm not sure we can completely write off their supposed role, or rather their utility of charging ahead and disrupting pike formations. Like yourself I don't imagine individual fighters with their armour and halberds/two-handed sword would survive long going head-to-head against a fully charged pike block. But what about against a formation already in disarray? I theorize that, as a commander in the 16th century (or any other century for that matter), you would watch the ebb and flow of battle very carefully. For instance you might use your Doppelsöldneren to exploit a moment of weakness after your flanking arquebusiers have put in a particularly devastating volley before contact. From my understanding it is precisely this use of combined arms (pikes, specialized weapons, and guns) and the ratio between these, that evolves from Swiss Reisläufer to German Landsknechte, and later from Landsknechte to the Spanish Tercio. I'd be hugely interested to see any kind of test that can be done on the subject.

@thespadoneproject5352

2 жыл бұрын

Also Skallagrim cited my article in this video, minute 4.48 kzread.info/dash/bejne/jJx5zahydrmccbg.html

@VirtualFechtschule

2 жыл бұрын

Good points. I think that that opportunity you describe would be very similar to what I talk about when I discuss bad war. The real interesting question would of course be at what point in the chain of command such decisions could be made. We have very little idea how much oversight a Hauptmann truly had, to direct precision strikes, so perhaps this was left to Feldwebels. Or perhaps we have to imagine the Hauptmann and trabanten pushing forward to turn the tide if it looks like the crucial moment has come. This is difficult to say and I'd be curious to experience just how much situational awareness you have as a commander at the centre of a formation (in my own experience, from the third rank you stop seeing what happens in front :p)

@JmbFountain

2 жыл бұрын

From my experience/sources, Doppelsöldner usually used pikes and Arquebuses/Muskets, or sometimes Halberds, like anyone else. Greatswords/Schlachtschwerter were pretty rare in Musterlisten and seemed to have been mostly used by Trabanten

@hartmutwrith3134

Жыл бұрын

@@JmbFountain you nailed it.Even the regimental recorders/writers where Doppelsöldner. Döppelsöldner where just very well experianced and good trained and well equipped specialists.

@OrileyOwnage

Жыл бұрын

Reisläufer is already plural :)

Ye, this man knows what's he's talking about. Love the approach.

Very good video, as always I appreciate your work. I can confirm many things you mention as I had the chance to consult sources and books in order to fill information about two-handed swords in my book. A lot of this conclusions can come directly from Reinhard Baumann's book 'Landsknechte' which I have in Italian translation from the 90s and I guess you probably had the chance to read. I would also add that among others, the probable main task of Doppelsoldners armed with halberds or two-handed swords was to defend the flags, ususally not on the front but on the rear of formations. A lot of written sources and artworks witness this reality. I would like to note also that differences in payment were part of Italian and Spanish armies too, according to different roles or tasks of the soldiers. The term Doppelsodner passed the idea that it was something specifically German, but it just happened to have a German specific word to name something widespread. I am also glad to note that someone else had doubts and wondered about the famous Marxbruder certification which I also encounter and no one was able to point a source for that claim. In my opinion just bullshit coming who knows from.

@superrobotmonkeyhyperteamf3194

2 жыл бұрын

From my interest in that topic i found that they did put them often in the second or third rank after the pikes. Kirchof i think states you could put some at the rear if you want to. Most however seem to put them close to the front near the "blood banner" to support the pikemen or replace them if they cant use their pikes anymore. Sometimes on the flanks too or the wings as Dillich suggests. Do you have any sources for the rear placement? Simply interested because i couldn't find much aside from Kirchof iirc.

@93xxlolxx

2 жыл бұрын

You and Virtual Fechtschule seem to be very knowledgeable about the topic maybe you can answer that question where did all the armor in later depictions about landknechts go when a short time before were all wearing armor?

@superrobotmonkeyhyperteamf3194

2 жыл бұрын

@@93xxlolxx You mean around 1600 and the thirty years war? Some did still wore armour like the pikemen and often men with short arms sometimes musketeers too. Often also depended on the availiability and money. There is a drafting list where all Greatswords had at least arm armour sometimes a full harness included. And the cavalry or Reiters had it too. Why they disappear from depictions is hard to say. Often its simply too much work, or the armour is hidden underneath the clothing, or the painter wanted to make something clear that wouldnt be clear with armour. But armour was often worn if availiable drafting lists do tell us that. There were also alternative types of body protection such as buff coats, chainmail etc. Then again the ratio of muskets increased a lot and you could pretty much hire anyone with a musket to fullfill this job but they wouldnt have money for armour and it would be uncomfortable to wear(you need to aim , hold the musket against the shoulder etc) so they would be depicted without since many of the muskets didnt have armour. Edit: Whoops thought you asked on the other comment so i answered.

@VirtualFechtschule

2 жыл бұрын

@@superrobotmonkeyhyperteamf3194 No worries, I would largely agree here! :D I think there's still plenty of armour around 1600 in use, but we definitely see a shift away from armour on the extremities, and more to quite heavy cuirasses. The increasing prevalence of firearms seems to have been the main reason. Looking at van Gheyn and Adam van Breen, we still see most pikemen in a cuirass though, so it definitely didn't go away. Improvements in firearms did mean that eventually there was no more point in wearing armou, but we'd then be talking about the late 1600's I think.

@superrobotmonkeyhyperteamf3194

2 жыл бұрын

​@@VirtualFechtschule Yep and after the armour type shown in van Gheyns pictures the dutch armour was favoured. With shorter tassets and better formed breast plate. Richer Soldiers often had "buffcoat" armour although the term is somewhat misleading. But indeed Pikemen and short arms would still have quite a lot of armour for that time. Some lists are bit clearer and describe men with greatswords and arm armour or full infantry harnesses. Musketeers often had almost no armour or at least not a harness. Quite interesting but sadly this topic hasnt gotten as much attention it deserves from researchers.

Great summary. I myself still believed in the "Meisterbrief" for established greatsword masters. It would have been absolutely believable in the German context. But its safe to say that they would have been common enough to leave some actual evidence behind then.

Okay, there's bunches of really insightful comments here now. Thanks for that! I'll sit down and respond properly somewhere this weekend! :)

@laisphinto6372

Жыл бұрын

instant like to that mustache

I found the cat component of this video to be a very informative analogy!

Wie so oft auf diesem Channel: ein wirklich gutes Vid - immer weiter so! Danke für den gut recherchierten, gut transportierten Content. :)

@VirtualFechtschule

2 жыл бұрын

Danke Schön!

The idea of using great swords when the pike formations broke-up and mixed is the most reliable. "Suicide squads" and "pike cutters" does not seem true. If anybody doubts - try to chop at least a wooden handle from a shovel in your country house. You would be surprised how hard is it. It`s almost completely impossible in battle.

@VirtualFechtschule

Жыл бұрын

Chopping stationary sticks that don't bend with you is still kinda possible,.I have done it and have seen it done. But pikes woble and move with cuts, so it's not very likely to be an effective way to deal with pikes. After all, the best way to deal with a pike block was having more arquebuses than the enemy. :P

"I didn't accept the Emperor's Coin for this" "Come lads slay them" "For the Empire!" "The Empire Endures" "This Emperor Max better be Good" - Landskenect

THANKS a lot for the Source-Quotations.

Excellent video

Awwww, kitty wants to be a mercenary.

How interesting! Thanks for uploading!

@VirtualFechtschule

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks!

Very well done. I would agree with all your points. The myth of the dopple cutting pikes has always bothered me

@VirtualFechtschule

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah, same. That kinda kindled the idea of this video. :P And thanks! I appreciate the comment! :)

I need a video on how you grew your mustache like that and how to keep it. I have being trying for years, but have yet to make it curve up like that

Excellent informative video, earned yourself a new sub!

@VirtualFechtschule

Жыл бұрын

Thank you!

Where is the B&W illustration from the 2:00 minute mark or so from? It's fascinating! Is it death dancing before the Landsknechts?

Interesting video, thank you for all of the sources. Also where did you get your awesome sword that frequently gets the spotlight?

@VirtualFechtschule

Жыл бұрын

The Greatsword? It's a Regenyei spadone type 3, with a custom grip.

@Hannezia

Жыл бұрын

@@VirtualFechtschule nah I mean the sidearm. The one with the messer hilt and S-shaped guard which you hold during the intro.

A lot of your images are showing a mix of Reislauffer and Landsknecht (the former much more likely to carry longswords as sidearms)

Any chance you’d do a video on the Marxbrüder fencing guild? Especially the Meister certification?

@VirtualFechtschule

2 жыл бұрын

Well, I find that interesting too, but I currently have very little research into it. I would have to chase some books down and generally learn all I can about it before I can do a video. I will in due time, but it might take a while. :)

You'd probably qualify for a doppelsoldner because of that formidable mustache alone

3:18 that is one of the main if not that reason, why there wore such wide and fancy clothes (beside many others of course)

@VirtualFechtschule

2 жыл бұрын

Might very well be. It's in a way carrying your wealth on your person right? :)

@luelee6168

2 жыл бұрын

Imagine a mercenary today in modern military gear: plate carrier, ballistic helmet, tactical boots & the whole load out, but instead of BDUs, hes wearing Louis Vuitton or Gucci.

"Verlorerner Haufen" sounds very much like "forlone hope" - although not literally the same in translation, I guess there is a connection to the two as they have the same meaning

@HeadsFullOfEyeballs

4 ай бұрын

Yeah, "forlorn hope" is a folk (mis)translation of "verloren hoop", the Dutch name for that same type of unit. _Haufen_ and _hoop_ are actually cognate with English _heap,_ but _hoop_ sounds like "hope", and "forlorn hope" makes some sense as a term for people who are doomed to die, so that's how English-speakers misinterpreted it.

Excellent video. Being a fan of dark ages history, I have a little theory that both daneaxes and greatswords fill a very similar role on the battlefield. both are more anti flesh weapons than anti armour, both around the same size, both used by specifically trained, skilled career soldiers. Makes sense to me that they are bodyguarding or area controlling weapons in both a civilian and battlefield context, and excellent weapons in a press where neither side is backing down and resort to their shorter weapons. Interestingly in depictions of great axes they seem to be used against the lightly armoured horses a lot like in the bayeux tapestry, i wonder is there any parallel to that with greatswords in this period?

@VirtualFechtschule

2 жыл бұрын

That's a really fun idea actually. For the 16tg century you have halberds to compare them to as well of course, but I think this still makes a lot of sense. Have you ever tried developing that fighting style for Dane axe?

@Isaac_howell

2 жыл бұрын

@@VirtualFechtschule my "battle" experience is mainly drawn from various larp events, so it has its limitations. But ive followed some of the principles from the various montante manuals and its a very imposing weapon to face off against, (even when made of foam!). 3 people with dane axes can hold a large area by intimidation alone using large fluid circular swings, where it might take 5 or 6 regularly armed fighters otherwise. especially if they are facing off against people with shorter weapons. I've also found that putting them in the 2nd or 3rd rank is much more useful than in the front, where they are vulnerable to spears etc. That way if a large push is made by the other side and it ends up with a press in the front ranks they are at the perfect range to deal out some devastating blows to the attackers. This seems to be matched in some depictions of greatswords and halberds i've seen within pike blocks, where they are situated further back in the formation, almost as insurance in case of "bad war"

@adolfhipsteryolocaust3443

3 ай бұрын

Well for dane axes it depends on the time period: dane axas can hurt a person in mail, when mail was heavy armour they could have been anti armor, agains plate not do much

Excellent info, thanks. One correction though, 'trabanten' doesn't mean 'bodyguard' in German. Rather it means 'Satellites' which they used as a nickname for bodyguards in the period. (Just a nit-pick). A little bit like saying, 'Ich rieche ein mause.' (I smell a mouse) to warn the unit that they could smell matchcord burning in the woods so there was an ambush waiting ahead. Keep up the good work.

@VirtualFechtschule

2 жыл бұрын

A bit of a nitpick indeed, but thanks regardless. :D I like how the word relates to modern Dutch trawanten. :)

@robmancebo70

2 жыл бұрын

@@VirtualFechtschule Absolutely a 'nit-pick'. People now days are exposed to so little German, I'd just hate to see someone get excited and use a colloquial word from the 15-1600s and embarrass themselves in front of someone who's taken a German class. It might put them to questioning your work (Which is excellent and great fun. 👍) A quick warning would head-off such misunderstandings for followers & students. Old language use can be a pain. I noted that-- according to a translator, 20 years ago-- schlactenbummlerin had changed from the 1500s pillaging 'battle loiterers' to 'sports fans', and now it comes up as 'battle lover'. Anyway, keep up the good work, Rob

@ravanpee1325

Жыл бұрын

@@robmancebo70 Of course football is like war when you see videos from derby matches..so it metaphorically fits the word

@Taistelukalkkuna

Жыл бұрын

*Picture of noisy GDR cars accompanying Landsknecht commander*

Very interesting indeed!

@VirtualFechtschule

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks!

Fencing individuals is different to fighting in a battle in formation.

@VirtualFechtschule

Жыл бұрын

This is an obviously true statement, but I'm very curious about the grey area in the middle. Many of these soldiers would have fencing experience, so to what extent are they able to adapt their skill to battlefield fighting. I'm currently working on a project to find out about that.

@gehlesen559

28 күн бұрын

​@@VirtualFechtschulewann wo?

Very nice video. Any idea what an artillery contractor with their cannon and crew might get paid?

@VirtualFechtschule

9 ай бұрын

That's a good question. My guess is that a Büchsenmeister would be classed as an officer, so something like quadruple Sold would seem likely. But to be sure I'd have to do a deeper dive than I can manage right now. Perhaps I'll get back to that down the line.

6:17 well, hmm depends ... but sure not running in front of the first line/charging forward especially not in a pike only formation, why, you break als your own ones pike, if than, in a kind of shield formation

Slightly off topic question. Where did you get your tall boots from for your landsknecht kit?

@VirtualFechtschule

2 жыл бұрын

They are not tall boots, but rather homemade wool stockings. I should still mess around with figuring out how to keep them up for longer periods of time though. :P

@FROSTYNARWALL

Жыл бұрын

A tie at the top and larger calves. That's the only way, especially if they're wool

Do you think they were paid in fabric because of their fashion or had such crazy fashion because of their pay in fabric?

@VirtualFechtschule

Жыл бұрын

That's an interesting question. I think Tuchgeld was nothing new, as that happened everywhere way before the 1500's. Likewise paying in goods was not uncommon elsewhere. I think the outrageous style of Landsknechte had more to do with identity. They saw themselves as apart from society, where so in many legal aspects and at some point even built an identity as some sort of fourth estate (with its own customs, privileges and dress).

So "bad war" is basically what most Hollywood movies portray medieval battles like? (a big messy skirmish?) Also "schlechte krieg" could maybe also be translated as terrible or grim war? At least that would be closer to what I understand schlechte to mean.

@VirtualFechtschule

8 ай бұрын

It's more poetic indeed! But bad is quite simply the literal meaning of schlecht, and I made the judgement call to leave any connotation of that with the listener. And yes, such a fight would indeed just become a terrible melee, but perhaps even a bit more cramped than Hollywood battles. I will argue it didn't happen in every battle. It takes a special type of determination to not break and run, so that would also explain why this type of fight is mostly associated with Reisläufer versus Landsknechte.

Is there a battle simulator that pits a Landsknecht against a Swiss Pikeman or Spanish Conquistador? How would that go?

@VirtualFechtschule

2 жыл бұрын

Good question. No accurate battle simulators that I know off, but there are a whole lot of real world battles where Swiss, Germans and Spanish faced off and most of these happened during the Italian wars. Initially the Swiss tended to dominate, but the Landsknechte and Spanish started having more succes after 1515 through a combination of better entrenching tactics and a higher number of firearms in their ranks. :)

Are those wire meshes on their faces at 6:33 fencing masks?

@VirtualFechtschule

Жыл бұрын

I thought so at first, but then I saw them on other people in different contexts as well within the same book (Freydal), so I'm guessing it's just part of the costume.

Sturmgeld I'd probably translate into "Hazard Pay" rather than "Storm Money". Verleerenhaufen is more like "Forlorn Hope" in English.

@VirtualFechtschule

8 ай бұрын

Hazard pay is a good, if somewhat liberal translation. Forlorn hope always sounded a bit silly to me. As if English just literally took a Dutch word without translating it. :P

Very good video. I have a related question, good sir. Are we sure that doppelsoldner is a term actually to be taken literally? An increase of 100% in the pay seems a lot for what amounts to better armour. I would rather expect something closer to a +50%.

@VirtualFechtschule

29 күн бұрын

We're quite sure that Doppelsold means 8 guilders instead of 4. All of the scholarship that is based on primary sources does say so.

@cernel5799

29 күн бұрын

​@@VirtualFechtschule Were they actually the overwhelming majority of the army? I think that depictions often show men in armour if I understand correctly that half-armour is enough to get you 8 guilders. Was it more common to get 8 than 4 at least well into their time? Is it possible that 8 could rather be a combination of both good armour and being willing to serve in the first rank or anyway something more than only armour?

@VirtualFechtschule

29 күн бұрын

@@cernel5799 That would probably make sense. That said, we're also talking about availability of armour versus funds here. If a captain could afford to only hire a certain number of Doppeldsöldner, the requirements would be more stringent. If very few people had armour, showing with only a few pieces might be enough to qualify, but would indeed also automatically mean frontline duty. It's likely even more complicated than this, differing from campaign to campaign, but that would need more research.

@cernel5799

29 күн бұрын

@@VirtualFechtschule I think that the art tends to show us that, by Renaissance times, most soldiers had at least a cuirass or some other form of metal armour (like a brigandine) covering the whole torso, so, if by "having armour" we mean anything from half-armour upwards, I think that at these times the case of very few people having armour should be virtually inexistent in practice. Don't you agree that the pictorial evidence seems to show that being armoured was very common also for the infantry from the XV century onwards until armour started to be discarded because of firepower? My idea would rather be that, if the basic pay is 4, it would make sense to pay 8 the ones in the first rank and 6 the ones in the second rank, with the additional requirement that only soldiers with enough armour could "aspire" to those positions.

Another thing making a Landsknecht's earning power hard to compare with a civilian's is that he'd usually be paying higher prices. If you're travelling with an army that lives off the land, a lot of everyday goods will be in short supply because there are suddenly tens of thousands of additional people in the area. You'd have to pay through the nose for whatever you can't steal/loot.

@VirtualFechtschule

4 ай бұрын

Very right! :)

I have returned with more questions. I know Landsknecht primarily used pikes, zwihanders, or messers, but I'm not sure what would make the most sense for my kit. I'm a blacksmith and make my own messers, but I doubt I'm skilled enough to make a zwihander. I also don't have the extra money to spend on such a sword.Would it be weird to have a grosse messer as the main weapon and a katzbalger or lange messer as a secondary?

@VirtualFechtschule

3 ай бұрын

Hi! Excellent questions! I'm afraid the Kriegsmessers were generally not used as primary weapons. The ones we see on Landsknechte were often not that long anyway (think about 100cm) and were most often sidearms for handgunners. The full twohander is cool, but indeed a bit difficult to make. If you want to get a kit that is perhaps a bit easier, but also accurate, perhaps make a Katzbalger as a sidearm and a pike or halberd as a primary. Halberds are everywhere and historically at least were relatively easy to make. A pike doesn't have to be ridiculously long. I've found anything between 2.5 and 4.5 meters for Landsknechte before 1525. Both of those primary weapons scream Landsknecht and should be a bit easier to make than a greatsword. :)

@josephsampson29

3 ай бұрын

@VirtualFechtschule your always very informative, Thank you.

Good history. It reminds me of what one book on dangerous places said about the modern mercenary business: "It's one percent reality and ninety-nine percent b.s. and the one percent really sucks." Also in a time when most people were not literate I'm not sure a certificate would matter as much as real skill that could be shown. In modern martial arts there are many frauds out there claiming special skills (same for the mercenary business as I've heard) so I wouldn't be surprised if the recruiters for the Doppelsoldners wanted the recruit to give them a demonstration of their skills to prove they could do what they were going to be paid to do. This is all guess work on my part, but certain things never change.

@VirtualFechtschule

10 ай бұрын

I think the demonstration would mostly be in the wargear they'd bring, as that's what the sources bear out. Any sort of skill test at the recruitment proces is unfortunately not ever described, so we'd have to assume it likely wasn't done.

Is there any information available on the art shown at about six minutes in? I'd really appreciate any information about it.

@christophervanslambrouck3055

11 ай бұрын

Hans Holbein the Younger

There might be several reasons to pay people more money like today. - important skills and certification (e.g. Meisterbrief) - task with high risk which nobody want to do volutarly e.g. lost hope formation - pay for ressources e.g. reimburst employees for using their private car, computer etc. for the company instead of gaining it from the employer for their work task

@VirtualFechtschule

Жыл бұрын

Pretty much. I like the analogy with today. :)

Ask the Connaught Rangers about how profitable a Forlorn Hope could be!

Doppelsöldner with battle swords or halbards where never waiseted to hack a gap into pike formations from the front. That did not work, because you could not break 5m long ash lances with a sword or a halbard from the front. And there is absolutely no evidence in all recordings of the 16.th. and 17.th cent. as well. Experianced and well equipped Doppelsöldner with long swords or halbards where allways and "only" Trabanten /bodyguards of the flaggs and the officers in the center. Lost formations, young cocky teenagers with swords, with shields and daggers, with javelins where waisted to disturb pike formations from the flanks. The movie Alatriste shows this nicely. Long swords against pikes is just another myth.

@VirtualFechtschule

Жыл бұрын

Agreed. That myth is pretty busted if you ask me.

@hartmutwrith3134

7 ай бұрын

sadly it is still telled in museums and castles around here. E.g. the big weapon collection of the Hohenzollern castle in Sigmaringen (South west Germany) @@VirtualFechtschule

why would they charge pike formations with not leg and feet protactions? sounds like a suicide mission

@VirtualFechtschule

Жыл бұрын

That's pretty much the point I'm making. It makes no sense, but there's still plenty of people who believe this story.

Well-trained kitten ❤️

I see he is NOT afraid to take an arrow to the knee...

@VirtualFechtschule

2 жыл бұрын

No sir, most definitely not! ;P

one sock yup one sock that is what I call risk taking ya feel me, worth twice yup its the one sock

My best bet: show up with an harquebus and know how to use it. Got double pay...and avoids the messy hand to hand stuff 🙂

Was there ever such thing as a trebelsoldner?

@VirtualFechtschule

Жыл бұрын

Not as such. But the Sold was just a basic unit to calculate wages with. Certain officers recieved four times sold, others eight times. I do get a feeling it was mostly even number multiplications of the Sold though. :)

6:38 also shields, Armed? Sword, ...

@VirtualFechtschule

2 жыл бұрын

To some extent. They were used in some places, notably in Spanish and later also Dutch formations. It does require pretty big targe like shields though. Anything smaller doesn't really stand a chance. The nice thing about pikes is their reach, and there's a whole treasure trove of pictures depicting actual pike-group tactics. There's a lot to discover there. :)

I know this is an old video, but can someone please help me? I have a Dopelsoldner kit with a secret helm under a hat I had custom made, but I also use my kit while HEMA sparing and want a visor helmet for obvious reasons. I like sallets with a bevor or a Griffon face bacinet, but I don't think either of those would be a good fit or be historical. I also like armets and close helms, but yet again, it really would not make sense. Any helmet recommendations that would be halfway historical or at least make sense for a mercenary?

@VirtualFechtschule

8 ай бұрын

Proto burgonet/skullcap is your best bet for historicity. You can have an armourer make a removable safety visor, that you can put on when doing armoured fencing. Or even do the same thing with an old fencing mask mesh, like I did in that most recent Landsknecht video.

@josephsampson29

8 ай бұрын

@@VirtualFechtschule thanks for the response!

@josephsampson29

8 ай бұрын

What is a good place to look for art and historical sources regarding the doppelsoldner?

@VirtualFechtschule

8 ай бұрын

@@josephsampson29 When it comes to books, you could read Baumann and Xenakis, but both are in German. Do you read that? Otherwise, pinterest offers a lot of period images. You have all the woodcuts by Burgmair, Urs Graf and such there within easy reach. :)

@VirtualFechtschule

8 ай бұрын

@@josephsampson29 Oh! Also Danielle Maed-Skjelver's thesis on Paul Dolnstein's sketchbook is good, and it's in English

Not paying mercenaries is very risky business...... Even on recent times. Mercenaries would go on the rampage or change sides if upsat about pay.

@VirtualFechtschule

Жыл бұрын

Yep. This is a pretty well documented occurrence in Habsburg armies. It might have cost them the Low Countries in 1576 as well...

You forgot to mention one of the, apparently, main ways to become a doppelsoldner. Bring a bunch of friends and cheat to win double 🤣

@VirtualFechtschule

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, that's a big one! XD

Actualy all Landsknecht were German speaking , except Singular Pickups. Honestly i do Not know of a single non German Landsknecht specifically but i never looked for IT tbh. Specifically Later landsknechts Got officialy noted AS: süddeutsche fußknechte.

💯

8:29 i guess, they could have had proof it to the Sergeant, or over the time, ...? We should not forget, that back than (and to be honest up to 18th - 19th hundreds), to climb up in ranks, in the Military, was way easier as it is nowadays.

@VirtualFechtschule

2 жыл бұрын

Well, given that in most of these military formations, corruption was rife, I'm sure everyone knew, but nobody reported it. Just a guess though, I would have to look into it more at some point.

7:54 The Marx Fencing Brotherhood - Is is the equivelent of a modern dojo or gym?

Veterans also Often Got doublepay

In Medieval Germany the Sinti people where often hired as mecernarys and get bettet paid as the normal soldiers. It makes absolute sence that the soldiers with great Sword where used when the Pike formations break up because then you have many people without a shield, you can simple cut in a vertical manner or thrust forward and you have the advantage of the longer weapon because the pikemen mostly cary a shorter sword for this Situation

@VirtualFechtschule

2 жыл бұрын

Indeed! I shudder to think what havoc a greatswordsman could wreak when most opponents were down to their side-arms!

Would a well skilled cook aswell as soldier gain dubble salt? Imagen a soldier that can also do katering jobs back at basecamp.

@VirtualFechtschule

Жыл бұрын

This would be interesting. I haven't read anything about it, but it would make a lot of sense. Generally speaking though, Knechte would either make their own food or be dependent on camp followers, so skilled cooks would generally be found on officer's staff I suspect.

First,you need to be dripping

Funny, how less changed during a siege or a urban warfare (ok ok, now we have tanks ...)

**New Scene Transition** GLORIOUS MOUSTACHE AND PERFECT WHITE TEETH FROM THE HEAVENS ABOVE SHALL NOW SPEAK TO YOU VIEWER

Halberds were on average slightly shorter than Zweihanders

@VirtualFechtschule

Жыл бұрын

I'm not sure about that. Do have any research into that, or is just a general observation?

@tristanr320

Жыл бұрын

@@VirtualFechtschule I don't think I can post links but the arma has sample of average two hander length of 5ft 7in.

I actually wouldn't say he was a doppelsoldner, sorta lightly armoured for the job. But then they may have cared less for their lives than I do idk Edit: oh that's actually armour on his chest and arms, looked like a poorly cut vest and bare arms on my garbage tier mobile >

3:42 that must be a newer drawing, because of the spelling (Al(l?) Mein Gelt Verspielt = Lost my Money through gambling)

@srenstrandby4968

2 жыл бұрын

It is a print of a woodcut by the Swiss artist and one-time mercenary Urs Graf dated ca. 1519.

@zeldaconnection9945

2 жыл бұрын

@@srenstrandby4968 WOWE cool, i didn´t knew that

Happy😊 navratri🙏 hindu new year💛

I’m pretty sure you and I are best friends.

were there ethnic Spanish doppelsoldners?

He isn't a Doppelsoldner, he lacks the missile barrage launcher. Let's see how many understand that reference.

@forickgrimaldus8301

4 ай бұрын

Damn Collage of Pyrotechnics

Isn’t a Doppelsöldner just an underpaid Reisläufer? ;)

@VirtualFechtschule

10 ай бұрын

>-

+

Age of empires III

@VirtualFechtschule

Жыл бұрын

Indeed! :D

Miauw!

@VirtualFechtschule

Жыл бұрын

Mieuw!

So you're say ing that this is some kinda suicide squad?

@VirtualFechtschule

7 ай бұрын

No, I'm stating that they weren't. There's some mention that forlorn hope charges occurred occasionally, but that didn't involve just doppelsoldner with greatswords, but all troop types.

@paincult7121

7 ай бұрын

@@VirtualFechtschule Sorry I just wanted to make a shitty suicide squad shitpost, really, really badly.

Doesn't sound financially intelligent to pay double for a highly skilled warrior only to risk his life on the frontline where expected casualties would be the most high. I'm speaking from the point of view of an economically conscious individual of course and from what I've been reading and studying about the middle-ages and renaissance is Europeans were quite economically conscious themselves; they didn't even waste smoke when preparing for meals. In fact, like many cultures, wastefulness was taboo in medieval European culture and in an environment where resources were scarce and limited it makes sense to focus on efficiency and practicality. What doesn't make sense is a suicide squad, even if they were prisoners, volunteering their service in exchange for the possibilty of freedom it would still be considered a waste of resources.

@VirtualFechtschule

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah, I would agree to some extent. The suicide squad thing would make some sense if the alternative would mean way higher casualties. And we have some accounts of it happening, but there's only one that I could actually verify and that involved Swiss mercenaries rather than Landsknechte and they charged cannons and not a pike formation. The use of your best troops in the front line would make a bit more sense if they're fully armoured, meaning that their staying alive would protect the rest of the formation and then lead to fewer casualties overall. :)

@luelee6168

2 жыл бұрын

@@VirtualFechtschule Thats a good point. As long as the gains outweighs the cost, it would be considered an acceptable sacrifice.

The Scottish & Irish Gallowglass were renowned for making such fearless & desperate charges at heavy cavalry formations & pike squares, using their outstanding & powerful swordfighting skills to chop away with great dexterity & fierceness. Their ferocity was unmatched! The Landsknechtes would hire them out on the Continent for just such services that entailed making forlorn hope attacks into opposing pike squares &/or fighting to the death while making these furious rearguard action holdouts. The Gallowglass were essentially Gaelic Doppelsoldners ☘️☘️☘️

The more i think about it, the more paying in fabric seems stupid. A doppelsoldner would partake in a battle, win, and then sell it to who? With luck, it was a normal field battle leaving the towns and citites relativly okay. Meaning that then you would have competition of everyone selling fabrick. Or you are in a siege or besieging, the siege ends, and who on earth will sell their gold desperatly needed for food in change of fabric? These men must have starved allot

@VirtualFechtschule

Жыл бұрын

They certainly didn't like it when they weren't payed in cash. And we also find loads of complaints about starving or freezing on campaign, so that definitely was a problem for Landsknechte.

Interesting that they claim not to exist anymore. The last I read about Mercenaries in Europe . The Scottish were supposed to be the only ones left. These mercenarys used to be the Roman army I believe. When Rome faked it's own death to become the worlds most powerful financial institution, the Roman legion's had to go somewhere. If you look at how Italy and Switzerland are situated . That was a handy place to hide them.

"Probably" is used a lot in this. So 0 credibility to anything said in this video.