We did a couple of similar experiments and felt the level of swordsman's control in a bind is pretty amazing even at higher speeds, however: We used a very sharp type XIV arming sword vs spear not dissimilar to yours. The swordsman was allowed to step in, though (obviously) not to strike the spearman. We noticed that trying to strike the spear aside with high force and speed is not the most efficient way to go about it, as often the bind does not actually occur and the spearman just redirects into a new thrust; instead pressing into the spear gradually (more of a schnitt than a hau) was much more effective, and allowed to better maintain the bind, especially if you managed to do it with the strong (the edge, not flattamastrong). If the bind occured with the weak it was usually less effective, as the spearman had leverage, and it's also harder to apply enough pressure with the weak. If the spearman tried pulling the spear back, the sword immediately followed with the point towards the spearman without the swordsman having to do much. If he tried to disconnect the spear to the side, down or up, it was easy enough to follow the spear with the sword and close distance. In our experiment the swordsman did not use an upright stance like yours, but instead a deep hip hinge stance to take lower openings as far away from the spearman as possible and bring the sword arm as far forward as possible in order to catch the spear as early as possible, and only then close in under the cover of the bind. In our experience, a careful spearman conservative with his thrusts was able to avoid being bound more often, than a spearman recklessly commiting to all-out thrusts (again, it was necessary to press into the spear rather than strike against it). A thrust that is deeper is harder to withdraw from a strong bind, than a shallow thrust from a weak bind. The swordsman stepping in having a strong bind was difficult to stop, a swordsman trying to step in with a weak bind or no bind at all was often defeated.

@VirtualFechtschule

Жыл бұрын

Pretty cool and elaborate description, thanks for that! :D The sharpness shouldn't make a great deal of difference. This Messer is nastily sharp. I definitely found that just doing regular parries really doesn't work. Cutting along the grain made a big difference though, so using lateral footwork might have influenced the outcome of this experiment. At the same time, that's also what works for me when doing the same experiment with blunt. The other option is to bait out the first thrust and explosively advance into it with a hanging parry (which is pretty much the Messer thing to do according to sources such as Paurenfeyndt) and turn it into a what's pretty much just Durchlauffen against a spear. I don't know how to do that safely with a sharp though, and I'm not sure how a sharp sword would give you an edge (hehe) while doing that. Regardless, I still do think the fact the the spear fencer gets to pose a threat at ranges where the sword person cannot, makes it a serious challenge if the spear fencer is aware of how to use this fact to their advantage. I think that, for instance for Roland, using a shield was pretty great for countering that fact. Something to ponder! :D

@maciejskora8767

Жыл бұрын

@@VirtualFechtschule I totally agree that parries don't work (that's what the masters have been telling us all along anyway), and lateral footwork plus cutting along the grain is the way to go. When I do it with a blunt though the spear has an easier time slipping back, while the sharp gives me tactile information about what's going on (we use a lot of snooker-like thrusts with the spear, otherwise the spearman's leading hand gets dangerously close to the sword blade). The spearmans advantage in the zufechten stage is undeniable, but the sharpness of the sword helps getting into the handarbeit stage, where the swordsman seems to have the advantage. One thing I noticed in your video (though it might be just a few selected exchanges), is that you start with your sword low, and cut the spear to the side mostly with the weak. Getting into the centre from the low guard to intercept the spear takes time, and the interception comes a bit late thus you still get hit. I wonder if you'd have better results beginning from halpschilt or langort, and just pressing into the spear, increasing pressure as it gets closer? Anyway, if by any chance you are planning to attend Berlin Buckler Bouts in November (19-20), we could have a hands-on discussion. Roland will be there as well. I can bring my sharp, and someone usually brings rubber-tipped spears :)

@VirtualFechtschule

Жыл бұрын

I will try to get to it eventually, once I settle into the new house and unpack my sharp messer. XD On a serious note though, I definitely will try out the method and see how different it feels. :)

I hate to be that guy, but I think you kinda stumbled on the biggest issue with Roland's approach. It seems like a game changer at slow to moderate speeds, but everything goes to hell when you speed things up. I haven't played much with sharps in a sparring situation, but I have noticed that same phenomenon at work fencing with blunts and trying to use Roland's tactical approach. At slower speeds it feels very effective, but once you speed things up it starts to fall apart, and the buckler, like the long haft of the spear, gives a fencer the opportunity to give fewer fucks, making it more dangerous to rely on controlling the bind. In addition, I *have* done some drilling with sharps, and I noticed the edge bite to go from a significant factor at slow speeds to a pretty minor one at higher speeds.

@adifferentangle7064

Жыл бұрын

IMO it will really depend on how much you want to push that line. If you go with a crazy sharp broadsword of a style used by landsknechts etc you might have a better time against polearms. They were, after all, designed specifically for the purpose of closing the gap against pike formations.

@AP-qs2zf

5 ай бұрын

Then don't be

@dashiellharrison4070

5 ай бұрын

It had to be done

Really nice video.

@killerkraut9179

Жыл бұрын

I think sharp bladed sparring would maybe safer with the right full plate armor and rounded blade tips ?

@Tkoutlosh

Жыл бұрын

@@killerkraut9179 Plate will protect you, but by hitting it, you will dull the blade really quickly.

@VirtualFechtschule

Жыл бұрын

Thanks! Lovely to hear that from you. :)

@killerkraut9179

Жыл бұрын

@@Tkoutlosh Dont care . I think for some tests you can use cheap machetes !

This was much fun to do!

"messering around" brilliant phrase. Interesting video.

Sweet experiment! Pole arms are definitely the "work horses" of pre-firearm melee, with the most effective way to end pole arms threats being handled by your archers, trebuchets, ballistas, etc..(IMO). But, this all varies when shields, bucklers and daggers (in second hand) come into play. Keep up the good work!

Interesting. Having half-heartedly studied some martial arts in the past that, on reflection, suggest that they had become impractical through self-imposed isolation, I can see how modern HEMA practitioners could stumble into similar problems. If I interpret your video correctly, if higher force blade impacts negate blade biting/binding, then if both fighters want to use feeling through blade-biting, they would both have to remain loose and not exert maximum effort in their cuts. I wonder how realistic that is when adrenaline gets ramped up. Maybe I'm reading more into sword versus wood than I should. A long wooden shaft might react differently than a piece of metal. I'm wondering how a flamberge-bladed Zweihänder (not quite the same as a messer I admit) would deal with a pike shaft. I imagine if the shaft did not bounce away, then it might make it easier to direct the pike point into the ground. I guess that a straight-edged blade would allow the shaft to slide away more easily. Might. Maybe. Any thoughts? Beyond fashion and pure aesthetic appeal, maybe there was a practical reason. Looking forward to your next video! Keep them coming.

Super interesting explanation! Also chopping wood to pieces never ceases to look fun :)

Really love these videos.

I think that, coupling the absetzen with footwork to close the distance quickly, as well as grabbing the spear with your off hand, would make that much more successful. In a situation where the spearman has no reason to worry about a counter attack, any defensive actions will have very limited success. For a good example, the second winding is only effective because the opponent has to worry about the imminent thrust. Without that threat, having the opponent’s sword between you and your own sword is rather suicidal.

Good experiment. Thanks for that

I always wondered if axes and falchions/messers were used as sort of anti-polearm sidearms to damage the shafts of longer polearms and deny the reach advantage of polearm-equipped infantry. For example, the "coustillier" (armed with a coustille- ancestor of the cutlass) follower of the French knights appears in sources shortly after the French defeat at the Battle of Courtrai against infantry with pikes and the goedendag.

@WaybackFencingClub

Жыл бұрын

I think if you could read the spears feints they would work well but if the axe missed it would not be good. Almost want to block with the haft to be safe until you closed distance past the spearhead.

Greetings from Kaliningrad and thanks for your lessons 🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽

That makes wonder how many krumphaus would break a spear or if that halfswording technique spadone in Marrozzo actually breaks spears like it's shown in the illustration

Do you think with more training on the part of the swordsman, perhaps the drawback at higher speeds could be overcome? I mean a quick bite into the shaft with a followup advance on the part of the swordsman might be what the tactic really is, but given (very legitmate) constraints of safety, it can't really be replicated and trained on effectively due to that?

@VirtualFechtschule

Жыл бұрын

I'm not sure. The reach advantage is still there, so basically this hinges on the swordsman just being faster than the spearman. I can get a decent winrate like that, but against a skilled opponent I'm still toast. What works somewhat well for me is to hover at the edge of that reach, have them overcommit and then move diagonally forward to take advantage,.but that's only relative to other tactics. :P

Now's THAT's a stress test!

How would this compare with cuts delivered by the spear rather than thrusts? I think the tip velocity might make it a little easier for the sharp sword to bite into the shaft parry the cut?

Interesting test. I appreciate the safety measures.

I think there is a genuine risk of a double kill in such encounters. A spear being thrust through a man will probably be lethal but not straight away. An advancing swordsman could still have enough to carry through with a lethal sword blow and die later of his spear wound.

@VirtualFechtschule

Жыл бұрын

Interesting observation. Yet more context to keep in mind!

very nice video - a question that occurs to me is - you did a lot of versetzen in a somewhat 90° angle - have you also tested how much the messer would bite into the staff when you did a more forward angle cut into the polearm? I would like to think that the "bite in factor" must be way deeper.

@VirtualFechtschule

Жыл бұрын

I did that, at the end. Making the slightly slicing cuts really destroyed the shaft in like two cuts. 😅 It really does take lateral footwork though, and the power generation also still knocked the spear, so it would have given Janienke a chance to change through.

@DreynHarry

Жыл бұрын

@@VirtualFechtschule thx for the info. and yes, of course, off line stepping key anyway. u have to close the distance asap or.... well.... run away 😁 cool video, again! 😁👍

Did I sense some Jeremy Clarkson on that "bombshell" line? Cool vid.

@VirtualFechtschule

Жыл бұрын

Hehehe, to some extent. But also some Brainiac references! :D

"The problem starts when the amount of fucks given by the spear person approaches zero..." - I feel like there's a logarithmic equation that could be used here ;)

How hard were you striking the spear shaft at high speed? Would an attempt to sharply strike the spear shaft and bite it more deeply with the edge of the messer have actually yielded more "feel" and/or control?

Can I ask why you ‘waited’ so long to engage the spear in a bind? I’ve found Roland’s ‘tactical’ approach to work very well at full speed, even against him, but you must be willing to bind in the center and adapt to the situation. Trying to parry anything a hand or two away from your chest with your arms lowered is going to be difficult no matter what.

@VirtualFechtschule

Жыл бұрын

The biggest reasons are 1. We're trying to keep it very very safe, so no active engagements (for now). 2. There might be an element of skill/experience involved. When I say that it might be because I suck I'm only half joking. That said, for future tries at this I would be really curious if I can pull off slightly more actively seeking to bind a spear or get a spear fighter to overcommit. I expected it will be successful a little bit more often (because I do find the sharp makes a difference) but I'm also not expecting a complete reversal, since on a tactical level, the spear fighter has a lot of reach where they can threaten with impunity. This should make setting up a successful engagement relatively more hard for the swordsman, regardless of sharp or not. But that remains to be seen for me. :)

@Sovereigncrown

Жыл бұрын

We fight with shields and swords (Ásfólk in MN), and have done a decent amount of full speed spear vs sword with blunts. Even with a shield, the only way we can reliably neutralize the spear is by proactively trying to bind and close at the same time. Even with sharps, as you note, the spear has too many options. Being aggressive but very causiously so, and being willing to change tactics if it starts to go south are what we have found to be the most reliable. It’s too big a gamble otherwise-especially when the spear wielder is willing to cast out the spear or make short throws. I like your videos and enjoy your approach and footwork and positioning videos! Please keep making content!

Very interesting. This adds another layer to the tactical side of fightinng against a spear as striking in line with the length of it at a shallow angle so it bites in along with the grain all of a sudden seems like a reasonable approach to dealing with spears. Coupled with footwork and a double edged blade that does seem to give the swordfighter a better chance at dealing with a spear. Also in the sense that jamming a spear using the blade only needs to last long enough for the swordfighter to grip it and proceed to slice up the other fighter.

@VirtualFechtschule

Жыл бұрын

Yeah. Although I'm still unsure to what extent this really mattered with a skilled spearfighter. I feel the experiment I shown here lacks movement, but any experiments with movement lack intent. Not sure how to solve that. :p

I think with a bigger heavier sword you could do greater damage to the shaft maybe even cut it with one blow or make it unusable. Also, with a larger heavier sharp sword, controlling the spear would be easier. the sword would cut more easily into the wood and thus create a connection

@VirtualFechtschule

Жыл бұрын

That's an interesting idea. I can totally see that being and interesting thing for a battlesword to be able to do. Depends on whether the pikes wouldn't bounce though.

@Wodan85

Жыл бұрын

@@VirtualFechtschule I think the mistake many people make when trying to explain the combat between battlesword and pike is that they look at the weapons in isolation. The battle sword was mostly used in conjunction with polearms. When the pikes are being blocked and held in place by other polearms, using the battle sword is much more effective. It doesn't matter whether it's destroying the pikes or attacking the pikemen (which is probably the main task of the battle sword).

......Well, the only thing is that Matt Eastn reconstruction late Medieval spears recentally and cus armor and mostly two handed use, the hafts were typically allot more robust, the spears he showed off were close to quarterstaff girthiness so harder to cut through, probably harder to move the head nimbly but a better striking implement and tripping lever.

I've long wondered if spear shafts might have sometimes had somewhat thin rawhide wrapping near the hilt. It would greatly negate the issue of the shaft getting cut, would add little weight.

@Garbid

Жыл бұрын

langets

@asa-punkatsouthvinland7145

Жыл бұрын

@@Garbid basically but usually langets are metal. Since we don't many if any find spears with langets in art or archeologically (at least that I'm aware of) I think the possibility of organic sort of lorication is feasible. Rawhide is tough, relatively light & inexpensive. All make sense especially on mass produced infantry spears.

@Garbid

Жыл бұрын

@@asa-punkatsouthvinland7145 thin iron langet is enough to make attacker think twice if he should damage his sharp sword trying to cut it) and enough for fisrt third of the shaft... or even quarter. But no pikes. They are already long and heavy. But battle spear or something same length...

@asa-punkatsouthvinland7145

Жыл бұрын

@@Garbid when one's choice could be parry spear with edge or get stabbed...I'd go with sword damage. But the rest or your points are sound...except for the lack of historical evidence. We simply don't find evidence for metal langets. Rawhide would biodegrade before wood so it would not be unrealistic to say that if rawhide wrappings were used that we wouldn't find them. As for art rawhide is almost the color of many unstained woods so an artist might not do anything to differentiate the 2 materials. I'm not saying metal langets we're not used on spears. I'm saying I haven't seen evidence for it. Also as I stated before if equipping soldiers, especially conscripted ones, a lord/king is only going to spend so much money. Rawhide wraps would do essentially the same as metal, but be far less expensive....which would hold great appeal.

I know this is an experiment not a bout, but as a general rule I would say that if your going to try to parry a pole arm (or honestly almost anything) with a Messer you need to side step as your doing it so that they can't use leverage and momentum to just blow through your parry. It also makes it harder for people to accidentally or deliberately hit your hand when you parry.

@VirtualFechtschule

Жыл бұрын

Yes, although I have also found this puts you at extreme risk of a skilful spear fighter changing through underneath your parry, at which point they catch you mid step. :P

Yep, pretty similar with sharp on sharp sword. Yes, it can matter in some cases, but not that much as some people think and claim it does.

@VirtualFechtschule

10 ай бұрын

Yeah, I agree. Working slowly with control is super important, but it also creates some artifacts. I think it pays to be a bit sceptical when people say changing the material properties of the weapon will completely change the whole fencing experience.

I think if you circled around while parrying, things would be different. That would change the angle of the parry more naturally toward the edge. Also it makes more sense since the most dangerous part of the spear is the head. If you parry into the shaft while circling in then grab the shaft or even just guide it to the outside with your free hand it would bring you into range of your opponent while remaining in contact with the edge. It really seems to me that the main issue is that you're staying in one place without using your feet. It's the worst thing you could do and makes no sense unless you're fighting in very close quarters to either side of you.

Everything Roland says has to be taken with a big grain of salt. This video proves that.

Awesome. Wonder if a proper heavy octagonal shaft (probably not safe for sparring) would hold up better against a sharp. How did the sharp hold up btw? Any dmg?

@VirtualFechtschule

Жыл бұрын

The sharp was absolutely fine, but that thing is really indestructible for some reason. :P

@kuesdav

Жыл бұрын

@@VirtualFechtschule which messer is the sharp? Or more clearly, who makes it? Lovely messer, that one

@VirtualFechtschule

Жыл бұрын

@@kuesdav I built it myself out of a cold steel cutlass a few years ago. :)

@kuesdav

Жыл бұрын

@@VirtualFechtschule Then you did a hell of a job! Kudos.

@VirtualFechtschule

Жыл бұрын

@@kuesdav Thanks! :D

I think maybe sparing with sharp blades would maybe saffer with the right full plate armor and rounded blade tips !

@VirtualFechtschule

Жыл бұрын

I made a pair of Messers like that, so perhaps soon we'll be able to get a similar video with some sharp Messer freeplay. :)

@killerkraut9179

Жыл бұрын

@@VirtualFechtschule cool

Poor spear. This was fun to see though.

@karolz8289

Жыл бұрын

yup!

Great experiment - thanks !

As far as I'm concerned myth confirmed. Clearly there's a tremendous difference in bind control with the sharp. I'm the biggest hema advocate you'll find but it's always bugged me when people say a spear is basically unbeatable. Spears are awesome don't get me wrong. Every thing has pros and cons. There's a reason nearly every elite warfare unit in history from cavemen until damn near WW1(no really think about it) used both in some form.

Your spearman is not a spearman! A puppet -yes. You destroyed the spear shaft just by repeated chops. Had the spearman been experienced, you would have been “dead” after one or two encounters. And therefore no more chopping.

@VirtualFechtschule

Жыл бұрын

Dude. I'm not trying to test any sort of combat efficacy here. People asked whether it would be possible to control a spear shaft by the edge of the sword biting into it. We set up a simple experiment to get lots of reps in, and after the shaft was pretty much through, we found that with the technique we used it really doesn't bite into the shaft all that much. You really missed the point of this video I think

BUT can one cut a sword in half by cutting it with a spear? 😂 jk jk

The problem is your lack of footwork. You are unable to to change the angle of attack vs the spearshaft

$$$41-4-****

That spear person does not know how to wield a spear