I don't agree or disagree about 100% of everything either of you have said. I think you both look better by having this conversation.

Major respect for your willingness to have a reasonable conversation.

This is an important video.Both of you are so civil and respectful. THIS is what our hobby needs. At the 1 hour mark Jim does a perfect job of explaining why RPG players in their 40s & 50s are so anti-censorship. I know because I lived it. Long, slow clap, Taron.

I have no issues with someone who has issues with formal safety tools like X cards or whatever else and telling us what those issues are, and even attempting to persuade us to not use them. By all means, not saying I'll be persuaded, but I'll try to keep an open mind and listen to what you have to say as long as you're respectful and conversing in good faith. When I question that good faith is when Ginny Di is accused of "Trying to force safety tools on people who don't want them", simply by telling us why she advocates their use, and trying to persuade us to use them. She no more is forcing us to use safety tools then Grim Jim is forcing us not to use them. Adding later that there's conventions or whatever who are forcing safety tools is pretty weak when you start with that accusation against someone who clearly wasn't. That said, that's hardly comparable to throwing slurs and hate, so I get why he is upset being lumped in with those who were.

@comatosesunshine

10 ай бұрын

How about the fact that Ginny Di started off her entire tweet thread on X about those anti-X Cards with an empatic, and I quote, "Go Fuck Yourselves." Combine that with the fact of her duplicitous nature of appearing sweet and wholesome but if you're a detractor even in the slightest it's an automatic block and accusation of being a bigot. Combine that with her broad brushing of anyone right of her far left opinions are automatically assumed to be fascists or Republicans it kinda puts taking her at her word with any sense of grace a tad difficult. So no, I don't blame people for not cutting her some slack this time. Maybe she should've paused for a minute and proofread how she was coming off from start to finish. And if she did, and still decided to post it in the manner that she did, then without a doubt she was farming for the controversy because drama sells content on this platform and anyone who's spent any time studying the algorithm on KZread knows it. And there's no way she's gotten as big as she has without realizing that, especially post OGL fiasco.

@The_CGA

10 ай бұрын

Is Ginny doing the thing where she makes it a “red flag” if someone is lukewarm or chilly toward safety tools? Is she using her leadership to “other,” and shame folks who don’t want to use a safety tool? Exclusion and shame are tools of compulsion. They are “forcing.” Maybe not with the same level of “force” as holding a gun to anyone’s head. If she’s just saying safety tools are good and have their use cases, cool. I honestly don’t know one way or another

@this_epic_name

10 ай бұрын

Yes, some people have issues with safety tools, but others have more of an issue with her apparent take that if you disagree with her, you're not being empathetic, and you deserve to be banned (by her) and that, by extension, you're not good for the TTRPG community. When people reasonably pushed back against her claims on twitter, the responses I saw from her essentially amounted to "you're wrong."

@The_CGA

10 ай бұрын

@@this_epic_nameyeah, I found the reciepts. She’s doing the Bush 43 “with us or against us” thing in very softball terms “you’re hurting the normalization of safety tools by simply being vocal that tools don’t suit your game.” This is couched behind “you’re free to disagree but please help us out by STFU” [not actual quotes but also not a Strawman]

@OutLawStargazer899

10 ай бұрын

@@The_CGA EXACTLY! Its the expectation that EVERYONE needs to be on board with "normalizing" saftey tools that i take issue with.

I like this level headed conversation. It seems a rarity nowadays. Glad to hear both sides of the argument.

Complex conversation. Which was nice to hear both sides. I think his strongest argument, IMHO, is if you identify the game as an 18 plus game I think yo know what you are getting into. I also understand trying to reduce spoilers. I have sympathy for that. I also think if a convention or shop doesn't want X games, that's their right and you want to run a game like that, make your own convention. He has very valid points. As another commentor said if I invite people to a wedding I ask em if they have food allergies.

Grim Jim follower here, great conversation indeed!

KZread (and social media in general) needs more of this form of discussion.

An excellent video because of what it represents - people with differing views being able to have a civil conversation/discussion on the topic without yelling/screaming/name-calling/accusations of atrocities etc. Just because somebody has different views to you, doesn't mean you can't talk to them, in fact - it's something I'd recommend. Nice work Indestructoboy - nice job Grim Jim. Let's keep talking instead of getting all cliquey.

I loved this. Great conversation as well as respecting each other and having proper discourse.

We need more of this in general The ability to have a civil discussion with someone you disagree with is an ability sorely lacking in soooooo many people

I watch both of you from time to time and honestly never thought I'd see you share a screen. Very big respect to both of you for talking instead of sniping, and for giving each other the time and space to speak.

Thank you for putting this right.

Gotta say. Indestroboy, gave GJ a fair shake. He's obviously a reasonable dude and someone who's got an open mind. And I actually agree with (IB) on most of his points. Great interview.

@Grimlore82

10 ай бұрын

Yes I agree

@robnecronomicon1570

10 ай бұрын

@@Grimlore82 Thanks.

Well done, gentlemen.

Well done, gents. You’ve momentarily restored my faith in humanity. Lovely to see reasonable conversation.

I respect you for being a adult and having this conversation we need more of this in society talk peacefully with people you have an issue with maybe you will learn something instead of just condeming them for it

I'm happy you both had this conversation. There was a bit of misconception and poor characterization, but you both took responsible action in regards to that.

Good conversation.

We need more of this , well done . 🍺

100% this is what the whole world needs more of.

Great convo. I enjoyed hearing both sides of the argument, just so I can see just how weak the arguments for safety tools are and just how strong the arguments against them is.

Coming back to finish this video; I also disagree fundamentally with 18+ Horror being enough of a disclaimer. I think the fact that they want to play such a game in a public/privately owned store space at all disqualifies the argument. Do what you want in your friend circle, in your house. You HAVE to be able to acknowledge that Rape in particular has some scarring psychological effects and if you just lay that on someone, particularly in an immersive Role Playing game where someone has experienced that trauma, you're going to have a problem. Especially if no one KNOWS that happened and therefore have to resolve the issue off-the-cuff. We're talking about things like implicit and explicit social contracts but for some reason GrimJim doesn't acknowledge that both implicit and explicit contracts SHOULD exist among strangers, which is mostly what these safety tools are going to be used for. Beyond THAT, there's just no world in which spoilers are more important than the comfort or safety of my players because the bottom line is, trust and comfort make for a much better play session. It's NOT as hard as GJ is making it out to be to adjust things or, frankly just turn away someone who doesn't fit the table.

@LogistiQbunnik

10 ай бұрын

Yeah, I also think that there can well be a place and time for such games, but I see it more like the nude swimming event in a big waterpark over here they do every year - suitable to a specific convention, or a specific game room for game that include that. A game shop or convention where the idea is to be open to new people to just come and experience "A Game of TTRPG"? Nope. If you want to do those, they really should need more of a heads up alike to having that BDSM session where people specifically sign in to stuff IMO.

what a great convo

Great conversation. Thanks so, so much for doing this video.

I watched Grim's video, and didn’t think it violate KZread guidelines or good community conduct. Having a disagreement over gaming approach and perspective doesn’t require a video callout. Personally KZread video and article titles are getting out of hand.

@SavageGreywolf

10 ай бұрын

I've started actually blocking channels, particularly political channels, which are getting into what I call 'clickbait-and-switch', even if I largely agree with their positions. This is the only way I know how to fight back- don't even give channels like that impressions. "clickbait-and-switch" being when a thumbnail and/or video title has little to nothing to do with the actual content of the video, even tangentially.

@The_CGA

10 ай бұрын

They may be “out of hand” but unfortunately one of the ways to achieve any kind of visibility (showing in the suggested column) when one has an opposing view or even simply a rebuttal …is to name names. This may seem like clawing for attention to a certain eye but I think there’s a fair argument that there’s an aspect of Right of Reply

Thanks for doing this, man. I was really disappointed in your initial stance, because I like Jim a lot. I don’t agree with everything he says, but I think his heart is generally in the right place, and I’ve done my best to look into everything he’s been castigated for it all seems incredibly unfair and frustrating to me. I really can’t imagine what that must be like for him. As a leftist myself, and someone involved in various types of creative ventures, I really do think I understand his stance pretty well. I agree with him to a point, in that the use of those tools can be a bit limiting, and a bit spoilerific. Where I disagree with him, though, is that while I don’t like them terribly much, I understand them, and I don’t really find them that bothersome. I would be fine without them, but I don’t really see the harm in making some concessions to keep people comfortable. I think he means what he says. I think he’s just extremely anti-censorship, arguably to a fault.

@nowayjosedaniel

4 ай бұрын

The problem is when it bleeds into the culture with so much judgement and moralism that public spaces, such as conventions or most online groups, begin to have all the listed problems of people making them too important, and the cultural attitude we see with Ginny D where if you dont like safety tools, youre labeled as an "Other" bad guy enemy of the social group. It's just nasty when people begin to get shunned and expelled because they arent being morally pure enough for the social conservative crowd who want everything safe and comfortable. Art is not comfortable.

So good you both agreed to talk. Great work both of you.

Respect to you both. Good to see a civil discourse!

Good conversation

I'll admit I made some hasty comments concerning the initial video but I'm nothing if not reasonable (and share a lot of gaming DNA with Grim) so watching the two of you maintain a civilised and respectful discourse was truly refreshing. It takes great character and integrity to self-examine in the manner you adopted, especially on the same day that emotions ran so high.... Well done Sir. Related note and apropos of a comment underneath somewhere, if we all agree to run our games without the need to interject into another's space if we feel that they are, in whatever way, running something we feel is egregious (some topics of course, devesrve censure) then the gaming world would be in a much healthier state. Parochical perhaps, but live and let live.

Public game etiquette versus ego of the game master. Your friends your table sure. But session zero helps establish tone and expectations. Being anti censorship isn’t an excuse for being a dick creep or bully in any part of life.

@bearnaff9387

10 ай бұрын

Being a "dick, creep, or bully" as a game master is a matter of context in TTRPG's. A scenario where a PC might be raped is incredibly dickish and creepy if it happens in a "safe" location in your bog-standard fantasy pan-Europe setting. It's something that should be expected if everyone is playing women in a deconstruction of the Gor setting (A setting either Indestructoboy _or_ Grim Jim could pick.). Context is everything, and to twist a phrase from 2012 tumblr, "Intent _is_ magic."

As a grognard OSR player I have a new level of respect for Grim Jim and his ability to articulate his beliefs & opinions, as well as to describe what many of us old gamers have gone through in the past, alongside the unexpected trend of newer gamers taking the torch for the newest 'moral majority' within the hobby. We never expected fellow gamers to continue such trends. While I've not been fond of your beliefs and opinions, I now have a much higher level of respect for you having the courage to sit & have difficult discussions such as this. This is something more people should engage in. If for nothing else, to simply realize there is a lot more to both sides, and the world as a whole, than the divide which youtube and twitter seem to focus on. In the end, we all want to enjoy gaming (and not politics or identities, etc) while at the gaming table. Kudos for taking Grim Jim up on his offer. I shall hope more people choose to engage with others similarly, and with the same civility in the future.

When there is an intense inclination towards a given course of action, would there be any value in scripting your reaction and thoughts, and refining them so as to avoid faulty reasoning and accusations?

To piggy back on something Jim said, I think part of the issue with Safety Tools is the name itself. I understand and advocate for what we would call a "safe" table, but I think using the term "safe" to describe this state creates unnecessary conflation. I think we can all agree that there's a meaningful difference between, say, emotional safety and physical safety, to the point it might be useful to find a different word. Moreover, however, when you use a term like "safety tools", you, perhaps unwittingly, imply that tables that DO use these tools are "safe" and that tables that DON'T are "unsafe", and it's that implication that really stokes my ire because it feels like a gaslight. I think there are lots of situations where these tools are appropriate, like at conventions and what not. But unfortunately, many of the loudest advocates of these tools don't present them as "tools", i.e. potentially useful items or techniques for accomplishing a goal, but as "preconditions" or "mandates". I sat in on a panel at PAX Unplugged 2021 that discussed these tools in horror games, and the entire 6 person panel was unanimous in their belief that safety "tools" are should be a requirement. And THAT feels weird. If not pernicious.

@GoblinLord

10 ай бұрын

I would argue that if someone doesn't use these tools, it's like not knowing if they're going to shoot a gun at you, you can be reasonably sure that someone you know well won't shoot you, but if you've got lingering trauma then you can't be *perfectly* sure. A place of possible danger is as dangerous as a place with actualized danger, cause there's nothing stopping possibility from becoming actual, it is "unsafe" not because you WILL have trauma, but because you MIGHT have trauma, which in the eyes of someone with trauma or anxiety, is the same thing., so in a sense, if you use the tools, there's assurance that the table is safe, if you don't, there's not assurance, it's fairly simple

@wuvination6939

10 ай бұрын

@@GoblinLordyeah they’re called safety tools because they make people who feel unsafe about entering into a world of literally anything feel more safe. For them these tools are defining wether or not a table is safe. Not everyone might have triggers or topics they want to avoid, and you can always just ask players privately if it’s a worry for them. That’s fine, but I don’t get people trying to say these tools are exclusionary and make tables without them worse.

@rudesthazard5769

10 ай бұрын

I agree for sure. "Safety" is entirely hyperbolic. We're playing glorified adult make believe. The idea that I can be "harmed" by the content of our play pretend game has always sat wrong with me. It's very infantilizing. Insulting. Bizarre. I've been through a lot. I understand all to well what trauma can do to a person. How you can feel in danger even if you're not. I deal with it every day. But am I ever in danger at a table? No. Being briefly uncomfortable because someone accidently ruffled up some bad memories or feelings at worst. That's not harm. And it's definitely not malicious, and even if it were, being uncomfortable is not enough of a reason for me to see why people are so passionate about them. If someone is suffering the psychological aftermath of a traumatizing event or former life to a degree that they can't sit down and play a tabletop game, I really don't think safety tools are going to help them. Therapy is. I think the reason they say harm is so they can make it sound malicious and ultra serious. But I dunno. I really connect with Grim's "this is my problem/damage, it's up to me to deal with it" I feel like forcing my baggage on other people is just gross. The thought of doing that is selfish and makes my skin crawl.

@joshuasorey6031

10 ай бұрын

​​@@GoblinLordTo be fair, you can't be PERFECTLY sure even if you are using safety tools (people can't always know ahead of time what will bother them), nor does the existence of safety tools at a table guarentee that they'll be utilized when actually needed (a person might still be too shy to invoke an X card, for example). But I've acknowledged that there ARE times when these tools might appropriate. But not every table has people with trauma or anxiety, much less people whose trauma and anxiety needs to be worked around so thoroughly. Again, it comes back to this feeling that I'm being gaslit. That random people on the internet either know better or think about the wellbeing of my dear friends more than I do. That some people will call these "tools", but then advocate for them to be a standard. That it's "totally fine if you don't want to use these tools", while subtly implying that you're lesser if you dont

Talking like humans is great. I agree that everyone has their own biases based on perspectives and experiences. It's difficult to come in from something like this from both sides and talk like humans. Thank you both for having a well thought and mutually respectful talk.

Never watched any of Grim Jim before (and may have mixed him up with someone else), but I just want to say HELL YES on how he dealt with the Covid-minimizers, and mentioning long Covid. Serious respect there, man.

@khayyin359

10 ай бұрын

I'll also say, I appreciate Jim mentioning the Gamergate thing at the end, in the spirit of "I want you to get as little [harassment] as possible".

Old school RPGs often had a section on dealing with troublesome players. Now the shift is on tools to deal with problematic DMs. Interesting the shift. The idea that DMs have been traditionally including offensive themes in their games until now is unfounded IMO.

I'm going to try to work my way through this discussion before generally commenting, but I just have to say at 12:35, when Grim Jim says that talking through problems with your GM isn't a safety tool, it gives me real "No true Scotsman" vibes. Having adult conversations is 100% included in the toolbox of making other players feel comfortable at your table -- aka, safety tools. Instead of being like, "that's cool and reasonable," some people want to paint safety tools under the umbrella term of "wokeness," (I'm definitely "woke," btw) when really, safety tools are just meant to keep real-life player conflict or discomfort at a minimum. The analogy I use is, when I had my wedding, I asked everyone if they had dietary restrictions. If someone did, we gave them special accommodations. That's literally what safety tools are. And you know what? Accommodating someone else's diet didn't ruin my wedding, and accommodating someone else's discomfort toward certain topics or themes won't ruin my game.

@Indestructoboy

10 ай бұрын

Yeah, this is why the semantics of it can start to loop the discussion.

@kwith

10 ай бұрын

The only thing with your wedding analogy that breaks down though is with an X-card. You made special accommodations beforehand so you knew what restrictions to prepare for, now imagine someone stands up, in the middle of the meal with a giant sign and proclaims "I can't eat this! Bring me something else!". THAT is the problem. I have no issues with accommodating a person as long as they let me know beforehand. I do this with my son. He is 13, so I keep any game I run for him and his friends PG-13.

@bearnaff9387

10 ай бұрын

The way to understand it from his perspective is to look at how "talking things over like peers" and some of the things listed under the heading of Safety Tools differ. When your system is "talking things out", you're assuming that everyone involved is an adult an able to advocate on their own behalf. Safety Tools explicitly exist with the goal of extending this franchise to people who are unable or unwilling to fully advocate for themselves. I find the analogy of a tabletop game to a wedding to be suspect. Unless the game is a LARP, it's not like a wedding. As a sidenote: AFAICT the concept of Safety Tools itself originates from the Nordic LARP community - so the idea that there needs to be a formal system or a bureaucratic solution for _large_ gatherings (large in this case probably being >10) certainly has some history and has probably proven itself several times over. But, a group the size of a dinner party doesn't _require_ formal tools any more than a group below 20-25 people needs democracy for group decision-making. In the end, use what you want at your table. If I come to your table and you use them, you won't hear any complaining from me - I'll use them as they're intended and explained. The issue only really pops up when someone tries to force their use in tables that haven't decided on their own to adopt them - either through regulation at cons and FLGS or strident-seeming normalization, which is Jim's disagreement with Ginny Di.

@DoubleCritFail

10 ай бұрын

@@kwith 💯 I agree that most accommodations should be discussed ahead of time. The X-Card is helpful because it provides immediate feedback at that moment in time. If we want to go back to the food analogy, it would be like if someone said, "I can't eat that! I forgot to mention I have a severe nut allergy!", then I'm certainly not going to force them to eat it anyway.

@CJWproductions

10 ай бұрын

​​@@kwiththey held up a sign i gave them I gave them the sign so they could hold it up if they needed to Because i knew i wasn't going to be able to predict everything Because some... Food allergies... Don't make themselves obvious until you start eating them

Around an hour in, the topic goes to moral panic from those inside the hobby and how older gamers can't understand why players would want that. Grim Jim makes some great points. Though it wasn't brought up in this conversation that D&D has progressed in the popular zeitgeist to include SO many different people from so many different walks of life VS those who were playing in the 80s. D&D and TTRPGs are so much more accessible now and it will inevitably draw in people who get very uncomfortable with certain triggers.

@The_CGA

10 ай бұрын

I would rather say that new folks may not have the same understanding of how creative the hobby is, and how much of a feelbad it can be to hear that one’s creative efforts are “harmful tot he community.” There are Karen types that kinda think about how the wrong “certain someone” shouldn’t be in their field of view at the public park…and will cry wolf and mobilize the community to make that person’s visible display of identity be squelched. It’s just that they haven’t had the opportunity to own something the way that we own the characters and worlds of our imagination. They just don’t know yet how badly it can hurt, and how boring and meaningless the medium can become without an open road to including more serious (or silly, or sexy) topics. It’s not that they’re weak, where once we were strong.

The other issue is those of us who WERE Ginny Di fans have seen the underside of her fandom & the attacks from her "fans" is real. If you don't believe that, my suggestion is question her in any way & watch the "fans" attack you for even questioning statements made. Something to consider & question. The evidence is out there.

@The_CGA

10 ай бұрын

This is a great example of how it is a matter of soft compulsion. That those who disagree with Ginny, the “thought leader,” can find themselves indiscriminately attacked online and their social graph shattered as folks recklessly put us into a global block list without the opportunity to reply-or even know we’ve been blocked out by a large swathe of the community.

Overall I think you are philosophically in the right, but I'm disappointed in the way you misrepresented Jim in your video and lumped him in with genuinely nasty people.

@Indestructoboy

10 ай бұрын

I agree, own up to it, and extended this invitation to talk.

First off, kudos to Jim for sitting down and actually being willing to have a conversation with you about this. I'm about to criticise him a lot in a moment, but I want to be fair and say that it takes a lot of character to do this. My biggest issue with a lot of what he's saying is that his argument appears to boil down to the idea that safety tools should be ignored because they can be distruptive to the narrative. While I understand where he's coming from and I think this is one of his better points, as a GM myself, I think it's kind of entitled to think that the narrative of the game should come before the comfort and enjoyment of the players. If I wanted to create a story where I didn't have to worry about the emotions or feelings of like five other people, I would write a book. I include safety tools in my game because no matter how much it could theoretically interfere with the flow of the narrative or gameplay or whatever else, I just want to make sure that the people sitting at the table with me have a good time. If you feel especially strongly that you should be allowed to depict explicit sexual content or graphic levels of violence or whatever else in your game, you shouldn't be forced to play with people who don't want to be exposed to that sort of thing and vice versa. Jim expresses frustration that he finds safety tools to be a hurdle for creative storytelling in certain spaces like conventions, and to some extent, I understand that. But villifying safety tools just closes the door on a tool that a lot of people find helpful to navigate a hobby that they love. There are ways to accomodate for the type of content you want to see in TTRPG spaces without decrying safety tools. There's a lot more I was tempted to write but I really don't wanna turn this into an argument. I think people should be allowed to have fun the way they want to have fun. If that means they don't wanna be exposed to traumatic life events at game night with friends, or they just don't wanna be reminded by some awful stuff that happens out there in the real world, I don't think that's an unreasonable request.

@keithulhu

10 ай бұрын

If Jim finds safety tools to be a hurdle for creative storytelling, that's his problem, not the community's.

@Punspitter

10 ай бұрын

You nailed what I was about to say too, no need for 2 paragraphs. It seems more like a Jim problem than a Community problem. As a GM, your main job is to Adapt. Improvise. Whatever you wanna call it. The narrative is far less important than the fun, ESPECIALLY at a con or public event.

@Grimlore82

10 ай бұрын

I agree one hundred percent. I run dark horror games and I play with some of the people closest to me. Before the game I want to know what they are ok with and not ok with. SA is not a thing in my games. Otherwise it's all ok unless you say otherwise. If one of my players has something that contradicts the narrative I want to run I would talk to them to fully understand what it is. Then adapt the narrative as such.

@Grimlore82

10 ай бұрын

​@@keithulhuyup

@Grimlore82

10 ай бұрын

Conventions are a big open space. Kids are walking around. It is a public place. If they don't want to have a table discussing rape, I believe that is fine.

just as you can discuss in good faith or bad faith, you can block in good faith or bad faith. it's silly to be pro-block or anti-block. what matters more than the block is the meta conversation. what is "good faith"? what is the point of discourse? what is the point of existence? if there's not agreement there, then conversation is rarely fruitful for anything other than ego.

@The_CGA

10 ай бұрын

Would you say that brigade black listing (often in the blind, it took a year and more for be to figure out I’d been broadcast as a “dangerous individual you must block” is that good faith? and forcible persuasive blocking “I see some of my mutuals are still following this guy, you have until the end of the week to block them or I’m blocking you” Is that good faith? I can see how bad experiences with those sorts of *bad faith uses* of blocking could turn someone off of Blocking as a feature altogether. The feeling of being in a shadowban/gaslight box, posting and wondering why nobody sees or hears you and not knowing why… This stuff happened to Grim

Phew cause I like you both and I’ve has arguments with Jim before

Love the respect and the honesty about where your misgivings come from. Anyone who remembers The Moral Majority, or Free Speech Zones can be leery of censorship coming from cry bullying... though there's a LOT to be said about a Dungeon Master that drags their players through relentless descriptions of things with no other purpose than reveling in seeming people squirm. A.G.

@skycastrum5803

10 ай бұрын

There is a lot to be said about that kind of DM, and it is a case for safety tools, but far as I've seen it rarely has anything to do with this debate. I've yet to see anyone on the "X-cards are dumb" side who is against a session 0 or just making yourself heard when something uncomfortable comes up. Could X-cards help with that? Sure. But they introduce a greater negative effect if there's a threat of potential social ostracization for voicing anything against them.

I have a livestream every Wednesday at 7pm (est). If you'd like to come on and talk, we can have a civil conversation. I doubt we'll ever see eye to eye, but maybe we can reach an understanding of sorts.

@tyleremery7088

10 ай бұрын

Props to you guys for being willing to chat about this stuff.

it's definitely the convention's table. if you don't like their rules, don't play at that convention. if you go to a friend's house and they say "house rule: if you need to relieve yourself, use the toilet. we don't want poop on the carpet or in any room where people are eating", that's not censorship. that's their right to request. if it's a bad request, leave.

@bearnaff9387

10 ай бұрын

It's definitely the GM's scenario - if the convention wants to exert editorial control over what kinds of stories people create, they can specify those requirements when seeking GM's to hire and compensate them fairly for their efforts. That's not being unreasonable or an edgelord, that's applying the _rest_ of the features of a commercial transaction to somethingg that is normally seen as informal.

@The_CGA

10 ай бұрын

Imagine if you will Neil Young or Rage Against the Machine or Woody Guthrie, they’re playing at a festival and have been invited to perform from their body of work. It’s their creative medium. Or even Dave Brubeck is gonna play some Jazz. And the venue comes along and dictates that they can’t play anything in a mixolydian scale or sing about Iraq

I don't even use formal safety tools at any of my tables - but honestly this opinion is bizarre. I like horror, I like scary shit - I don't want to play in a game with graphically described animal cruelty. If this is important to the plot for some reason and it can't be altered that's fine, I would rather not play and would rather not have it sprung on me. So I would prefer a small content warning - if that is spoilers to you then you can just not read it? (General 'you')

My first experience with safety tools was not with the tools themselves but with the people trying to get others to use them. I was running a game at a con and a lady was going table to table asking people to use them. Most tables took them and placed them aside. The DM at the table next to mine declined to take them. I don't know if he was rude or what the exchange was but the woman handing out the tools blew up. When the woman turned to me, she was clearly already upset and continued her tirade towards me. She began to yell that she didn't expect me to use them either and that I should look for a new hobby because it wasn't for people like me anymore. While I don't like safety tools, people can do whatever they want. If I run a game that is ear marked for adults and the description clearly lays out a horror theme, there should be a certain expectation that the content may be for people who are not so sensitive. I don't think there is anything wrong with a DM choosing to use them but maybe their bad reputation is due more to the people demanding their use and less with the tools themselves. I dunno, just my two coppers...

@The_CGA

10 ай бұрын

Would love to hear your anecdote and possibly interview you about this on my channel as this is the kind of concrete event that both sides have tossed back and forth, and has been called a bogeyman by some…clearly it happened.

@this_epic_name

10 ай бұрын

I think my perspective is that using something like x cards can risk feeding into a sort of narcissistic/infantile victim mentality or, at the very least, giving people a crutch that relieves them from acting like a mature adult among other adults. That's true particularly *if no conversation about the issue is required.* If the card is merely a prompt to pause and have a conversation, then I can't see how the card is necessary -- just have the conversation. If the card is intended to stop the game without any further explanation or clarification, I'd be completely opposed to it, because you may not be able to know what the issue actually is, and that could derail the whole session. I'd say that giving a single player the power to derail a session *without explanation* would be unhealthy to the game. (If there's a clap back that x cards aren't meant to enable that, see the previous question about why they're necessary in the first place.) Instead of advocating for or even tacitly supporting the use of such a tool, I would instead encourage people to bolster their maturity, assertiveness, and self-confidence and to stand up (and speak up) for themselves when they encounter something in a game that they don't want invading their leisure time. You don't need a card; you just need a backbone. The criticism of the x card isn't tantamount to a denial that people have had trauma associated with certain things, phobias, or simply have things they don't want to deal with in their "fun time." It's also not tantamount to insensitivity to those issues or a lack of empathy. (And I think Ginny Di conflated these things.) Instead, from my perspective, it's a critique of something that facilitates immaturity, both emotionally and in terms of being able to interact in mature ways with mature people. It lets people hide behind a piece of paper instead of assertively vocalizing what's bothering them. In essence, it supports an undesirable character trait. In all aspects of life, we should instead work toward building desirable character traits and challenge ourselves to overcome whatever things hold us back -- in other words, grow.

Jim is right that formal safety tools are totally disruptive and unnecessary, but voluntarily using safety tools isn't censorship. every single mechanic limits creativity and slows a game down, but it can also improve the game, hence why we voluntarily play D&D instead of candy land.

@The_CGA

10 ай бұрын

The “censorship” is really more of a “Chilling effects,” as in, being creative gets way more fraught and nerve-wracking trying to thread the needle, ask permission and have a sensitivity reader, etc. Safety tools aren’t directly related to this, but they are part of a general climate in the RPG hobby that is trending toward the content of the imagined world being…content-controlled. That players can approach a GM and say “I’m not going to play with you unless you remove spiders.” I have no iissue with being sensitive to an arachnophobe, but I do take issue with “snipping off” pieces of my worldbuilding, same as players are offended when a GM says something absurd and overreaching like “gay people are not present on this planet”

@bearnaff9387

10 ай бұрын

As a completely irrelevant sidenote - you cannot actually "play" Candlyand. You "iterate" it. The original Candyland board has no randomizing features or player choices and is completely linear. You flip over your card, advance your pawn to the next same-colored square, and end your turn. For a given sequence of cards and number of players, gameplay is always the same. Once you finish shuffling the Candyland deck, the game is determined. Players merely act as a "clock", moving through the game one step a turn.

Hate Speech is just a open ended excuse to ban any disagreement or criticism.

I mean, as a former, actual journalist I can't take gamergaters seriously.

@bearnaff9387

10 ай бұрын

Gamergate saw something that was real, but lacked the context to fully understand what it was they saw. Nobody involved early on was really familiar with the ego pressure video-game writers were under at the time. Most of them were graduates with journalism degrees who did not go to school to write about video games. But, they got into the field as it was collapsing and had to take the beat they were handed that I am positive almost all of them felt they were too good for. Nothing breeds contempt like resentment. It also breeds collaboration and commiseration via the same back-channels that everyone who slings ink for a living either discovers or invents. So, when the original "Gamers are Dead" article cluster came out right after people seemed to close ranks around Zoe Quinn, which was immediately followed up by the discovery of secret e-mail lists (oh how I miss pre-Discord internet), gamers - who were outside both the profession and the cultural norms that shaped it - saw conspiracy and collusion between competitors in what was normal (if unprofessional) behavior. The fact that the journalists in question had been assigned beats in line with their talent was pretty-well confirmed when nobody on the journalist side understood that there was a misunderstanding at play and tried to clear things up when it would have been easy. The rest was history. Some of the blame can also be lain at the feet of Twitter, which sped the intelligence drop of the professional class that saw its start on tumblr. I wish I had understood all of this when it was happening. As it stands, it took me way too much thought and watching Jef Rouner make an ass of himself after being handed the unenviable "manosphere-adjacent" beat at the paper he was writing piecework for, to understand the thought processes involved.

@Spectrue

10 ай бұрын

@@bearnaff9387 I mean, gamergate literally started with a lie, to which the creator of that lie has admitted multiple times since that he lied. And gamergaters know nothing about ethics and journalism, let alone ethics in journalism. Because they couldn't grasp such concepts they just went along with whatever drivel continued to spill out of the message boards. Oh Twitter was fun for gamergate. I remember a research paper that came out showing the stats of individual words used with the gamergate tag. The vast majority of tweets with the gamergate tag (85%+, I believe) included the word b*tch and were directed at women.

I think the discussion was good and humanizes things more. There needs to be further discussion on a) influencers do have a responsibility for being leaders of their communities. The reason why hate is likely to spread from this interaction is because you both showed respect and asked your communities do the same. When Legion of Myth is sexually harrassing, using racist slurs and using hate and drama to cause engagement and create division, and continues to have a channel without consequences, it encourages his followers to attack and maybe even act on threats towards those he is directing his negativity towards. That is exactly like the Covid misinformation that Grim Jim mentioned. The reason he doesn't see the similiarity is ironically because of his privilege. Thats exactly what is the problem, is privilege causes a lack of lived experience. A white, middle age male lacks a life of being objectified or demonized or have a lack of positive role models potrayed in their media. Thats what this what this whole culture war is based around, white men failing to understand privilege and how women and minorities groups are harmed by the lack of awareness and unfettered white male expression. These safety tools are a response to a lack of safe spaces.

I typically run dark horror games. I don't care on the semantic on safety rules, I have a session zero and I tell the players what I want to do and what do they want from the game. If I am playing with my regulars then pretty much nothing is off the table and I do go 18+. These work for my Grimhollow or Curse of Strahd games. To me Curse of Strahd is an example of an adventure with a plethora of adult content. SPOILERS for curse of strahd below. Strahd is a sexual predator through and through, will murder and maim and torture if he wishes it. He is a villain to display the worst of humanity corrupted with Vain, Spite, and Jealousy. I want to run him and the rest of Curse of Strahd as bleak setting much like my dark Grimhollow games and thankfully my group is very chill, allows me the creative liberty to make horrible situations for players to interact with. However.... I also run another game for Autism Scotland. (Scottish charity) Those games are more PG. Less dark. I keep in the same continent of etharis from grimhollow and use the monsters. Yet, I limit my swearing and 18+ material and keep it more appropriate for the charity games, this means I also limit the horror aspect I tend to run with. I don't enjoy it less. It is just for a long time I tended to run for new people interested in D&D. I still do a lot. I feel that for me. When I tend to run for new people It is useful to accommodate their own preferences first, this allows me to gauge their personalities and how to keep them invested in the hobby. I don't think people who want to put in child murder or rape are bad. Hell, very cool DM I had years ago only put in NPCs who we were saving from goblin cave was only because Goblin Slayer had just came out and he was obviously taking inspiration from it.

I disagree with Grim Jim fairly strongly simply because I used to agree with him entirely, until I was the one on the metaphorical tightrope and got thrown off balance unexpectedly with no net below me. Over a decade ago I was in a relationship with someone whose doctor made an error with prescription interactions and suddenly while we were out having a good time they had a severe seizure. I spent the rest of the day at the hospital while it seemed like no one could tell us what was going on. It's one of the moments in my life where I've felt the most helpless. Several years later, I was no longer in that relationship anymore, but the moment still stuck with me. I was involved in a somewhat freeform superhero rpg with a GM who a friend had told me they quite enjoyed playing with and the GM tells me that due to whatever was happening in the scene, my character has a seizure while standing next to their significant other. Quite frankly it ruined my night and I basically shut down as much as I could without just leaving the game entirely. I gave minimalist responses to everything thereafter and I found it particularly upsetting that the GM had chosen to do that without asking if that was okay, given the freeform nature of the scene and that there were multiple options to incapacitate my character beyond that. However I do agree with both of you in that the safety tools that have been promoted in use for the ttrpg scene seem largely ineffective and like they give a false sense of security. If there had been an X card available in that game session I probably would not have used it, because of the social pressure (and because the damage had, mostly, already been done). My biggest problem with the X card is that it is a brake pedal that will either be activated too late after someone's in full blown 'nam PTSD mode (or not at all, even though it's warranted) or it's an obnoxious slowdown that an annoying person will apply anytime the story veers anywhere close to making them feel an emotion other than rapturous ecstasy. I don't have a solution, but I don't think ignoring the fact that yes, 'make believe' can cause psychological harm is a good response.

Maybe it is just coincidence and just my luck, but I sure have seen Indestructobo go out of his way to defend Ginny D quite a lot of times. Not saying it's bad to be a white knight, but I get real Paladin vibes. Is that Taron's fave class? ;) lolol. If so, we have a lot in common.

@Indestructoboy

4 ай бұрын

You... have? I did once last year which lead to the conversation here with Jim.

@nowayjosedaniel

4 ай бұрын

​​​@@IndestructoboyI went back and spent (way too much time) trying to find the video I remember. I couldn't find it, but I actually am pretty certain it was exactly the one you mentioned: the video spawninf this one, and it was just once. Multiple times, just bc of how passionate you are in defending the truth and your friends, and the multiple videos on the SAME event, just repeating the same statements to reiterate what happened, got me confused. I was just teasing you bc I can easily see myself being a paladin to my friends as well, so I liked that about you even tho ppl might also tease me the same ways, but I want to make sure I wasnt wrong here. Seems I was. You only did it once. I mustve just saw two videos about the same event. I apologize if it came across as anything but praising your integrity. I am often called a boy scout or paladin type myself, so it was just fun seeing someone else get teased as a white knight too. Not a lot of ppl will back up their friends like you do. Which is sad. We need more ppl standing up for what they think is right. Anyway, when looking for the video I remembered, I found the "taking accountability" where you owned your faults and apologized to grim jim. I gotta say, I absolutely admite your humility and integrity standing up for the truth even if you have to admit you were wrong. And you do it anytime you find out youre wrong. You actively search for the truth and look at yourself with an unbiased lense and really try to determine if you were right or wrong. That alone is so rare and beautiful, it is incredible. I admire this about you and respect you immensely for repeatable actions showing this attitude. You really do embody the best aspects of a paladin archetype. I say none of this lightly. In the world, I respect very very very few people. I admire so few. I think I admire this part of you so much because you have shown it as a proven truth about yourself. For me, I do not even know what I would actually do. I just hope I would do the right thing. So to see you do it, but not know if I would, I see something I admire and hope I am like or can be like. You and Justin Alexander (who truly embodies the "Love thy enemy" in his incredibly respectful and considerate response to someone who lied defaming him) are two of the few I respect and admite in this world. You have traits I hope to one day possess myself: true christianity (plz dont cringe. I know youre from Oklahoma so you should and probably do, yuck, but I mean like the real jesus. The kindness and humility, love and respect one. Not the heretical antichrist that southern christians worshio that sickens our stomachs. Not republican jesus with an ar15. The real one, lol.) That's why I say you embody great traits of a paladin type. But in real life, not fantasy, your actions here really do remind me of a true follower of the real jesus. That humility is something I am pretty sure I will likely never achieve. Too much ego for me, and too much anger at injustice to be as nice to ppl as Alexander, hahaha. It is so strange to find such deep morality and integrity, and spirituality in the TTRPG scene. Especially when recent revelations reveal it to be such a toxic cesspool (Dr. Weisman's interviews were quite sickening to listen to, knowing they were powerful community moderators)

@nowayjosedaniel

4 ай бұрын

I also gotta agree with you: your conco with grim jim is the best content on your channel. You are right there. Honestly, it has to be some of the best content on youtube PERIOD. If we all had just genuine and honest conversations like this, even when in total disagreement, the world would be a much greater place.

The thing about terrorist cells i think he is talking about an echo chamber

Respect to you and grim jim for the talk. I think this whole discussion hinges on context. Not to bring race or sex into it, but given the context of the type of audience of the 70s, 80s, and 90s, which was largely dominated by people who were white and male, those kinds of tools weren’t necessary. I’m not calling anybody racist at all, but it’s just the environment at the time wouldn’t have needed those kinds of things. Now however, ttrpgs have never been bigger and more importantly, never been more diverse.

I think GJ may be willfully ignorant about the prejudices people have obviously projected. However I did agree with a few points he made. Good on these guys for talking it out and Grim explaining his perspective on the whole thing. I agree with IB about going after those who spew hatred, death threats, etc. Fuck'em. There are bad people out there, and those are some of them.

Lesson here is that everyone used everyone else for clickbait. She started it, posting to get clicks and everyone else built on her fame and responded to get clicks and drive traffic to their content. If you are going to be a public figure posting publicly, and in order to make this your job you need clicks, and your trying to get reactions, you can't expect people to not react. It's everyone's business model on here. In order to get more clicks some people with de minimis subs have to be more loud and more obnoxious to get attention, even stooping so low as to go with anti-trans, racism, etc. just for clicks.

Love him or hate him Grim Jim got style

@llewelynshingler2173

10 ай бұрын

Hey may be kinda reckless about his players' emotional state, but dang, that is a good beard.

@bearnaff9387

10 ай бұрын

Great, now I can't unsee Grim Jim accidentally setting his beard a-smolder trying to do the whole Dumbledore "You seem to be laboring under the delusion that I will - what is the phrase - come quietly?" bit with a flaming chicken.

Full disclosure, I'm about a 1/3 the way through this so far. This is my first exposure to Grim Jim and imo this person comes off as someone who presents arguments purely from the point of view of wanting to protect their personal play experience. They don't want spoilers, they don't want their tastes in play experience curtailed, they don't want their immersion broken, when it's possible to have all that and safety tools in place. Monte cook's list of triggers for example is a tool for making sure common triggers aren't missed when confirming a group is happy to explore those themes, it's not a spoiler, it's an aid to the adult conversation/social contract Grim Jim mentions. On X cards, fair enough if he doesn't think it's a good implementation, but if a player is being triggered in the medical sense by content in the game, you need to be able to communicate that and shut it down because that IS causing actual harm. Speaking from experience, I've described scenes I thought were inocuous and because i missed my player DMing me via discord they were uncomfortable I caused them to have a panic attack. That session was the worst session of my life, not because I DMed it badly (it was a fantastic and dramatic session), but because I hurt a player I feel regret whenever I look back at it. And if Grim Jim doesn't think panic attacks are actual harm, then the only words I have for him would be censored. And ultimately he's self contradictory in saying he doesn't use safety tools if he thinks an 18 rating is enough. That's the definition of a safety tool, it's a terrible one which does little to warn players of whether or not the content is right for them and gate keeps people who suffer PTSD, but criticisms aside that IS a safety tool and a firm of censorship. If he doesn't want spoilers then have the trigger warnings for a campaign hidden in a manner which means players can opt in to the spoilers. Problem solved.

@dungeondr

10 ай бұрын

On convention play, it's a balance: either include trigger warnings (if you're worried about spoilers have them veiled in some way) or have lists and adapt on the fly. It's not rocket science. The reason they're needed at conventions is because players don't have the social contract between them already in place.

@dungeondr

10 ай бұрын

On comparing BDSM to RPG, he again ignores the impact of psychological harm.

@dungeondr

10 ай бұрын

It's not narcissistic to say you're having a bad time or an episode and that opinion of Grim Jim's is actually harmful imo. If a player is silently suffering most reasonable players would be horrified by the idea that their enjoyment is at a friend's expense. Empathy isn't something gen z or millennials invented.

@dungeondr

10 ай бұрын

Safety tools are more needed now because the game has become more inclusive. Not to say white men can't suffer from PTSD, but by and large we're generally less at risk. Also the "in our day" or "at our tables" is confirmation bias and ignores what happens outside Grim's personal experience.

@dungeondr

10 ай бұрын

On capitalism versus catering to your specific niche: cry me a river. You want specific content? Homebrew it, make your own, do it at your table where you make the rules. Like the rest of us do when we want something that doesn't have mainstream appeal.

I made a video about her stuff once. Years ago. Not safety tools, more her “rules? Meh!” Takes a while

34:30 there's the problem. "One person who is uncomfortable is ruining everyone else's fun" Like bro, they just want to know ahead of time if they might be put in that situation. Not all SA survivors want to tell you they've been SA'ed. But they might not want to relive that ish at the table.

@nobinary2296

10 ай бұрын

I agree with that 100%. As someone with PTSD and a survivor of SA its something I need to be warned about in advance. My specific form of PTSD is C-PTSD. I am forced to relive it when triggered. As long as I am told in advance it is fine. And yeah I don't walk around with a giant flashing neon sign advertising it. That sh×t is mine to know. But that is why I advocate talking to your DM, even privately, just so you can get that out of the way. As a GM myself I take that seriously and generally try to talk to people one on one. No one wants their sh×t aired. Although I haven't GM'd in a couple years. I am surprised to see opposition to that mindset. If you start at ground zero with that mindset you habe a way better time. Players see you care and generally aren't d×cks about story plot hooks. Things still go wrong but meh. Its DnD.

@bearnaff9387

10 ай бұрын

You know what? If you're totally blind-sided in a game that gave you no warnings that such subjects might come up, I think you're right to be royally pissed off. Now, do you see how the situation is different if you go into a game that labels itself as "18+ Only, Strong Horror" and expect to not run into anything that could possibly trigger you? People aren't having issues with not adding rape-gangs to the cities of the Forgotten Realms.

@zhazhagab0r

10 ай бұрын

​@@bearnaff9387I do see the difference. Truly. But these days MANY of us are forming groups online and trusting people we will never see in person to be a part of an inherently intimate experience. I do think it's unreasonable to blindly assume that you won't experience any triggers in a horror game. I also think it's reasonable to want to be in a situation where you will be warned about certain very specific (and horrifyingly common in the real world) types of violence. Kind of like how movies can be rated R for a whole slew of reasons from language to gore to nudity. It would be helpful to list sexual violence as a theme that COULD (not necessarily WILL) arise. There's also the matter of things that happen in the world vs things that happen to your character. When our group started, I stated a hard boundary that I am not ok with my character having sexual violence done to her. Kill her, hurt her, maim her, whatever, but that is my line. It's reasonable to have boundaries.

@Grimlore82

10 ай бұрын

I agree 100%

@fgcggggc2870

10 ай бұрын

Some people like horror and have no problems with graphic ultraviolence and whatnot except for the sexual one. So, your solution for them is just not playing horror? Instead of giving at least general TWs?

53:30 the Right has Free speech as a Principle, where as the Left doesn't, this is why Grim (though he objects the label) is principally on the right in that reguard

@bearnaff9387

10 ай бұрын

The Right has only very recently and half-heartedly started using the principle of free speech as a bit of shallow window-dressing. Free expression has never really been a right-wing value and it isn't one now.

@danjones4811

10 ай бұрын

Intellectual error; libertarian can reference the right or left - Jim claims to be anarchist, which is classic libertarian left

"i almost killed myself over how people made me feel" vs "getting your feelings hurt is not harm" really makes ya think

@nobinary2296

10 ай бұрын

"Rules for thee and not for me" Kinda made me blink when he did that. Although he did retract the statement and reclassify what he meant. I just think he needs to be a bit more educated on mental health. He said he wouldn't spring it on someone he didn't know or do a play by play. Just an "x" happened. What do you wanna do? So maybe he, like I said, need a bit of education. Its not "selfish" or "narcissistic" as he implied but someone struggling with something very deep and personal. You can ask them to sit out the session, if they wanna quit, or walk out the room until the event is over. Given a brief rundown so they can get back into the mood without triggering them once they get back or giving the character an organic out so the player can quit.

@valiantshadowproductions

10 ай бұрын

This is really disingenuous framing. Jim described a culmination of several factors, piling up overtime and coming together, leading to him attempting to self harm. That’s way more complex than “I tried to hurt myself because of how someone made me feel“. Come on. You’re being part of the problem.

@The_CGA

10 ай бұрын

Losing your social graph altogether and being treated a leper. People lobbying the only publishing outlet to remove your content, even though there’s no content policy (at the time) Vs. Something happened in a fantasy game that refreshed a memory of a past trauma I think there’s enough of a difference to say your argument is disingenuous

Not evwn 30 minutes in and i found several factual problems with Desborough's responses and your agreement with them as he misconstrued how trauma works. I'm a bit disappointed you didn't call those out.

@Indestructoboy

10 ай бұрын

I’m not a psychiatrist, my guy.

@RichardBalsley

10 ай бұрын

Neither am I, but I have training in emotional intelligence as well as an English degree. Many of the rhetorical devices he used are designed to gloss over important issues. There are four responses to trauma and, like him, I'm Gen X. I'm also disabled from military service, a survivor of SA, and have a learning disability. His response of Gen X would just get up and leave is untrue. Flee, fight, or freeze are the responses to threats and trauma. The last one people overlook and use that to blame others if they don't speak up in the moment.

@Indestructoboy

10 ай бұрын

@@RichardBalsley I was trying to understand Jim’s perspective, not start a debate.

@RichardBalsley

10 ай бұрын

I understand that, however, when he called Connor Alexander a racist for a speculative fiction game where colonization didn't happen is in the same category as Varg, that's a clear indication he's using false equivalents. I have the book and there's no explicit mention of Europe being wiped out, only that the people the game focuses on are unable to get there due to ocean currents.

@Indestructoboy

10 ай бұрын

@@RichardBalsley dude, I said I wasn’t aware of the content in the book here in the video. This was not an endorsement of any views, just a conversation with two people who admit to having disagreements. I can’t press anyone on something I don’t have knowledge of, and you’re being seriously unfair to me for expecting that.

Gotta say, Jim can say he wanted to use clickbait because everyone does, but you have to be prepared for consequences if you present yourself a way that you know people will be reactionary too. His views on safety tools and censorship are out there, but what I dislike is that he’s willing to shock people but unhappy about people getting upset from how it looks. Chud behavior feels accurate, even if I wouldn’t exactly lump him with the level of the other two.

@heymitch100

10 ай бұрын

Everyone involved here uses and used clickbait, including Gini and Taran. So, by your argument, no one should be surprised or upset by any response to Gini, either. Now, from my point of view, whether or not Grim used a headline to grab everyone's attention, the people who responded to Grim's video without ever having watched it in it's entirety (including Taran, apparently) weren't the poor victims here. If you watch Grim's video on safety tools, and then watch Taran's first video attacking Grim, it's clear that Grim was the professional one, and that Taran disparaged him without cause. Now Taran came back and cleared up a lot of the confusion (and I give him props for that), but arguing that Grim deserved to be disparaged because he engaged in precisely the same behavior as every other KZreadr is a really lousy take.

Imagine having movies reveal half of the plot to you to avoid triggering people.

@pimpbisquick7036

10 ай бұрын

Imagine not realizing that TV shows have content warnings without revealing half the plot.

@swoz_

10 ай бұрын

Movies literally have ratings with reasons attached and have since 1990.

What I take from his words is that Grim Jim presents himself as an anarchist and leftist and has all this discourse against censorship but in the end his definition of Harm completely disregards mental health. A point that was not touched is in this conversation is why safety tools exist. Nobody is trying to tell you how to play your game and the fact he assumes that because he deems himself able to harmlessly handle any discomfort he may have at table then everybody should be capable and willing to do the same is very egotistical. Even if i can agree that trigger warnings can become spoilers I have to understad that these tools are there because people could have a really bad time if I unexpectedly trigger them. His attitude of "this is my game I don't wanna be censored" just aims to exclude people. Some times you may be playing with your group of friends that you know each other and so you already know what they're OK with because maybe you talked about it many times before. But when you're playing with a bunch of people you don't really know and you don't really have time to get to know each other and have an adult conversation that flows organically to uncomfortable subjects, then safety tools, that even can be used anonimously, are a relatively easy way to make sure everyone will have a good time. In the end he truly represents the white male privilege, he even brought up inverse racism.

@heymitch100

10 ай бұрын

Actually, he brought up racism. Inverse racism are your words. He said that creating a setting where the rest of the world is set on a utopian course after Europe gets wiped out by a meteor is suspect. I guess you disagree.

@bearnaff9387

10 ай бұрын

What's wrong with excluding people? Almost every single TTRPG out there, with the possible exception of Wisher, Theurge, Fatalist, imposes exclusive conditions on play. If I am running a game of Cybergeneration/Cyberpunk 2027 and someone wants to play an actual Orc as opposed to a kid dressing up as one, and isn't willing to compromise, they're going to be excluded from my table due to the fact that it's not Shadowrun. There are even games like OWoD's Revenant subline, where getting through a campaign without feeling really bad at some point is a sign of a storyteller who didn't understand the brief. Not every game needs to meet the needs of every player at all times. You have uncritically swallowed some seriously toxic views about what creators can and cannot do, and need to spend some time in serious self-analysis to figure out where you went so wrong.

@The_CGA

10 ай бұрын

“Nobody is trying to tell you how to play your game” Only a few weeks ago, B. Dave Walters, a noted D&Dlebrity, broadcast from his platform that there is “something off” about folks who include slavery in their fantasy worldbuilding. Like, even if it’s the bad guys, or the PCs are abolitionists (John Brown is my Homeboy). True, nobody is banging down your door. But your world gets a lot smaller, if your push back on some of those chilling effects. I wish grim wouldn’t use “censorship” for things that aren’t a hard ban, but are more exclusionary and shame-based. It confuses the issue. The issue is free expression, that folks feel like the RPG space is liberal and open to new ideas and perspectives and folks can “Jam” without applying for a permit from the moral authorities. After the fact, it’s good to be sorry and make amends when one causes offense. But if you kept your muse bottled up…that’s a loss. To wit, the Neil Young Lyric: “That’s one more kid never get to grow up, never get to fall in love never get to be cool…keep on rockin in the free world”

I didnt appreciate GJ saying he wouldn't explain the details he was referencing as validity to his argument. I believe that reduces the validity if hos argument.

"He's in an interracial relationship" and "white dudes strikes me as a bit racist" makes me question this guys good faith.

34:15 He believes safety tools are horrible and you need to just deal with it. Like if one person at the table was SAed and that comes up at the table and everyone else is having fun but they are having to relive trauma because of it, they need to deal with it themselves and its narcissistic to ruin other people's fun cause you feel uncomfortable. That is just not okay. I think you can agree with that @Indestructoboy

@nobinary2296

10 ай бұрын

Agree his take was horrible on that point but he did retract and clarify. I don't think he is educated on these mental health issues. Gen X wasn't into mental health. I just think he needs some education on the matter. I don't know if he would listen to it, but I hope someone calmly explains to him how that wasn't a good take.

@bearnaff9387

10 ай бұрын

It's interesting that this is the second time I've seen someone make the jump from not liking players having the de facto ability to re-arrange the game setting at will via a colored card and sexual assault. How do you feel about a player who sits down at a table running the horror adventure "Temple of the Spider Queen, What Has Spiders in It" and red-cards the first spider the party encounters due to arachnophobia? As a scenario it's at least as uncharitable as assuming that any objection to the way Safety Tools treat GM storytelling is due to a desire to inflict rape on people who've experienced it IRL. So, what do you have to say about our arachnophobe?

@sethazillax2553

10 ай бұрын

@@bearnaff9387 Those are two etirely different situations. Really. If you are an arachnophobe, you wouldn't join a game called Temple of the SPIDER Queen. So you are hinted at ahead of time what will be in the game. If a game is listed as just "horror" and then has rape, that is not a problem on the player, that is a problem on the dm for not better clarifying what the game is about. Most horror movies don't have rape in them. Some do, but not even most. So why should someone who wants to play in a horror game, have to accept and be okay with rape in it? That is just not okay and should be clearly stated before the game starts in a small summary of themes or a session 0. Both of which, this guy avidly disagreed with.

@bearnaff9387

10 ай бұрын

@@sethazillax2553 Both scenarios are parodies of likely scenarios. Again, why make the jump between "I do not want people to do things that make the use of these particular tools more likely to become compulsory," and "I want to be able to spring rape on my players at any time without any warning or repercussion,"? Someone abusing an X-card-type system to force a GM to re-theme the game they had prepared is as just as much of a parody of what's likely to actually happen. If you want to argue extremes, we'll star with mine since I'm apparently the only one here who gets that it's an extreme scenario.

@sethazillax2553

10 ай бұрын

@@bearnaff9387 Suprisingly it isnt even that extreme of a scenario. I have seen it happen far too often. And the people that abuse it are few and far between. So there is literally no reason for him to be so butt hurt over it. I disagree with the Xcard because I agree with Taron, that it has its flaws. I think a good session 0 or summary of themes is all that is typically needed. But him being 100% against even those small things shows that he doesn't care about others and only wants himself to have fun, even if that causes harm to others when they weren't even warned of what a game was about. It is fairly simple. People should know what they are signing on for. Especially at games like he mentioned where you have to pay into games at conventions. Knowing what you are signing on for is the bare minimum.

While it does seem like this guy has a brain and can construct an argument that is well reasoned, there’s a limit to what I can grant. The conception of safety tools, like the title or not, is the recognition that this is a hobby that is meant to be fun and that there are going to be some things that should/could remain unexplored in order to make that experience more fun for everyone. I hate censorship as well as the next leftist anarchist, but exercising kindness and common sense when it comes to what content will remain unexplored in a particular gaming environment is just being sensitive to the fact that my experience is not the universal experience and I’m willing to table my desire for a specific story beat in order to create a gaming environment in which everyone can agree is palatable and fun to engage with. I used to get bent out of shape when people would say things like “trigger warning” or “objectionable content”, but in a post-pandemic world where we all literally faced down the very real specter of our mortality and would now like to engage in a bit of levity with a group of like-minded individuals, using safety tools is more necessary than ever. We don’t know what damage or lingering trauma someone else may be actively coping with and you would be a straight up sadist to not be interested in sparing another human being having to re-litigate their own personal nightmare and preserve your right to free expression as a storyteller with a group of friends. Get off your high horse and find some empathy bud and stop hiding behind the libertarian BS. That ship done sailed and left everyone wanting.

@rudesthazard5769

10 ай бұрын

I have lingering trauma, I'll probably never be rid of it, I'm genuinely a mess. But the idea of "safety tools" has always seemed hyperbolic to me. Not using safety tools doesn't =/= not making a palatable environment. It just means having basic conversations and social contracts without all those passive aggressive artificial constructs in the way. If anything, my trauma and what I've survived is probably why I'm against it. My damage is my own. I can't be harmed in our glorified sessions of adult make believe, implying that I can is absurd. Someone can accidently trigger a mad memory or feeling, but that's not malicious. I can be reminded of awful times, I can be made uncomfortable, but harmed? No. I'm never actually in danger. To me, there is more empathy and compassion in understanding that my problems are mine to deal with, and that I shouldn't impose them on everyone else's limited gameplay time or demand everything to change explicitly for me. I'm hard enough to like as it is, why would I be that selfish ontop of that? It's up to me and the DM to deal with that on our own time. It's up to all of us to just.. Talk. It's also patronizing. Infantilizing, when taken in certain directions, I don't need to be protected from fiction. I don't need my DM to be a sheltering overbearing mother for me lol You accuse him of being on a high horse, but you've made your point of view into a moral obligation you are willing to condemn others for not holding. Hope you can see the irony in that.

@douglascheesman

10 ай бұрын

The main thread of my point remains, that my experience/your experience is not universal. Just because you or I cannot be harmed actively by exploring edge case material in a game, does not mean that someone else could not negatively affected by the same material. I have a friend and DM who performs group therapy sessions through his medical practice utilizing DND as a means of role-playing through scenarios in order to process traumatic events. This scenario requires a delicate touch and necessitates safety tools. The common language of what “safety tools” has come to represent is merely a context through which to view the discussions that probably should be happening in every game. But, the label is just a label, the more important point is that there are lines that some people cannot tolerate and are susceptible to. Not acknowledging that is acting in an anti-empathetic way. That’s not a grey moral zone from which I speak, that is stark truth to my eye. We are not all cut from the same cloth, so at minimum acknowledging that every person has differing thresholds for what is agreeable/fun/acceptable/triggering is just common sense. There is nothing passive-aggressive about using “safety tools” in concept, it is just the enumeration of the social contract that we are all agreeing to by sitting down at a table to play a game. Whether it happens explicitly or implicitly, every table should have a space where the discussion could happen and by naming it a player is assured that there is, at minimum, an opportunity to at least be afforded common understanding that the other players know this is an expectation. If people don’t like the title, call it something else; lines and veils, no-no’s, or off-limits. As a DM, I’ve no issue with my players telling me what makes them feel comfortable or uncomfortable- that space isn’t passive aggressive, it’s just asking people “How do you want to do this?”

I respect the fact that you had this honest conversation but I think Grim Jim's take is completely unreasonable. He seems to be arguing against trigger warnings and X cards because 1. it leads to spoilers in your game and 2. it is hard to adapt to as a DM. I had a girlfriend who was a rape survivor. If I was to bring up a rape scene in one of my games, even one that was fade to black, she would have had serious post traumatic stress that would have ruined her entire week, if not more. If you're not open to the fact that people like that can be in your games, then you are being extremely closed minded and insensitive. You do not need to tell a story which involves something that may be triggering for your players. You can still have a great time and make an absolutely vial and horrifying villain that still conforms to the established precedent set by session zero. If you can't, I'm sorry but you're a bad DM and a bad friend. Creating a game that is fun for the entire group is the labor of love of a DM and purposefully creating something that will potentially be traumatizing or encouraging a scenario in which you don't know if something will be traumatizing is incredibly disrespectful. I love having safety tools in my games as a DM because it conveys to my players that I care about them. If they've gone through shit in life, this will not be a place in which you need to worry about those things. Have fun and let's delve into a story together. Let's not play chicken with trauma. This is especially true at conventions where you do not know the players personally and don't already have the trust needed to tell someone about your triggers. We need to step up to the plate and be better as a gaming community, not minimalize the real implications of playing with someone with trauma.

Interesting convo. Sorry to say but to me, if you're against safety tools (having criticisms is fine), I don't trust you and wont play a game with you. Simple as. I have tables where we haven't used them, it all depends on your group/game etc. But just being flat out against them is sus af to me. Also, if you are more concerned with spoilers for your game, rather than the comfort and mental health of your players, that's bs.

@midnightgreen8319

10 ай бұрын

To counter that, I don't play games with people that include or need safety tools, because they clearly have more issues than I'm going to deal with.

@kyj6283

10 ай бұрын

@midnightgreen8319 And there it is. People managing their mental health/not wanting to be exposed to your explicit and highly detailed rape/torture/murder scene don't have "issues". They're normal fucking people and you're clearly someone who shouldn't be played with.

@The_CGA

10 ай бұрын

It really does the cause of free expression, the struggle to overcome the many chilling effects of the current RPG climate, when people are so categorically opposed to safety tools or try to just label it as “weak.” It ain’t about that…as a matter of fact as many people as possible should get to have fun and enjoy this hobby and I hate the right wing chuds begging for attention by beating their chest

@The_CGA

10 ай бұрын

@@midnightgreen8319 or maybe their games sail closer to the wind than you? Like, I don’t wear a helmet for most bike rides, I definitely DO when I’m holding the gimbal over the side of the bike and trying to film through a car window on a production

@midnightgreen8319

10 ай бұрын

@@The_CGA I've been running games for 27 years, I have had no issues with people who couldn't handle anything in the game. People have become so emotionally fragile in the past few years. I ran horror games for literally 18 years 🤷🏼‍♂️

I just dont understand. If you act like an ass people might not want to associate with you. Its not this complicated

@nowayjosedaniel

4 ай бұрын

Safety Tools are a way to try to take control and censor the game before it even begins, by essentially stating you believe everyone is untrustworthy, immature, and a total jerk. You dont need safety tools. You just need to act like an adult and communicate with your friends like adults.

I would not give these channels any platform tbh. I understand your motivation, but they are just using you for your platform. They do not care about discourse, they just want to spew out their agenda.

@Indestructoboy

10 ай бұрын

See, we talked about this kind of mentality in this conversation.

@1pageadventures

10 ай бұрын

​@@Indestructoboy Yeah, I watched that part now, thanks for the heads up. While I usually completely agree with you, this time I might have a different perspective. He seems to be playing by the altright playbook. Not saying anything about his political beliefs, it's just a comparable tactic. Provoke, get publicity, backpaddle a little bit and act innocent. Repeat.

@Indestructoboy

10 ай бұрын

@@1pageadventuresfrom our conversation, I don’t believe Jim is alt-right at his heart. Time will tell, but I feel this was a productive discussion between two people who can amicably disagree

@1pageadventures

10 ай бұрын

@@Indestructoboy Yes I think I would agree, it's more a similar strategy of growth is what I meant, which I dislike. But I'm happy that you found the discussion to be productive, then at least something came out of this situation. 😊

@Witch-KingofTsamra

10 ай бұрын

He is a Far left Socialist Anarchist Libertarian. He is anything but Far right. He even mentions his political beliefs in the video.@@1pageadventures

Hard disagree again with the conversation on race as well. People see Orc's as black people because, retroactively, black communities have identified with orcs because of the identity that has been imposed upon them being quite similar to the rationale used to shift Orcs from brutish, war-creatures into a rationally structured group of people. There's obvious, probably unintentional parallels between Orc's from D&D and the way Black people have been historically treated. Racism doesn't have to be intentional, it's more like a virus that's kept persisting. As a white person, you have historically more social power than other groups. Power tends to remove empathy, intentionally or not. Thus, Power requires responsibility. You SHOULD be imposing deference on yourself when you're talking in circles that aren't your own, it's important to do that so you don't step on someone's toes because your experiences as a white man are different than that of a black one. Anyone can empathize with a black man's plight in America, for example, unless they don't want to. But not everyone can UNDERSTAND those experiences the way the individual who experienced them does.

@bearnaff9387

10 ай бұрын

Can you find examples of Black people identifying with the classic D&D orc*? Because, honestly, I don't believe you. * (as opposed to the "tall/muscular fetish green warriors with a tusky underbite and an ironically philosophical view on life" steretotype that's popped up in hentai-adjacent comics)

@pwnyboy9714

10 ай бұрын

@@bearnaff9387 I can't find specific examples, no. I'd have to acknowledge it as anecdotal. I've listened to a lot of podcasts over the years and the sentiment seems to be 'fictional references can be imprinted on by historical references where overlap exists'. And of course, Black people aren't a monolith so, YMMV. That being said, just as tons of white people identify with Elves and Dwarves (an extreme negative example manifesting as a push that 'black elves' or 'black dwarves' aren't lore accurate or are somehow 'woke' culture.) I wouldn't be shocked at all to hear black people, particularly young adults/elder teens identifying with the archetype of the orc; a typically rugged outcast who is viewed as typically violent or pariah to the larger society. That IS how some black people, again males in particular, identify themselves because that's how society (and I want to iterate that this is from an American perspective) typically treats them. As scary individuals, physically capable and to be surveilled.

@bearnaff9387

10 ай бұрын

​@@pwnyboy9714 Oh boy, I think you might want to spend quite a bit of time re-considering your positions on these things. The reason you cannot find any evidence of an existing connection between Black people and "classical" Orcs is that it doesn't exist. People imagined a cultural concept that just isn't there. As for people objecting to Black elves and dwarves, you will find that the vast supermajority of all of those objections are to the use of Black elves and dwarves in an adaptation of Tolkien's work set in the same parts of Middle Earth as the Lord of the Rings series. There might be some additional objections brought up by people if the Black non-Tolkien dwarf or elf appears in a small or isolated community in a fantasy setting that somehow has the racial makeup of 21st-century Los Angeles. Those objections have almost nothing to do with Black elvishness or dwarveness and almost everything to do with having diverse casting that _detracts_ from the verisimilitude of the setting. The disparaging blame of "wokeness" is because it seemed like the people making the show were more interested in ticking current-year political boxes than they were in presenting a world with verisimilitude and depth - which are things that Tolkien himself put a lot of effort into and are part of what Middle Earth is known for. Nobody objected to Marlon Wayans playing an elf in the 2000 Dungeons and Dragons movie because he was Black. They objected because he is _funny_ and that script was terrible.

@pwnyboy9714

10 ай бұрын

Actually@@bearnaff9387, I think the reason I haven't (not can't) find any examples is because I don't feel like looking, a trait of laziness I'm fully willing to own up to. You don't have to believe me, but I have seen the examples across the years. It now sounds to me though, like you were asking as a set-up to pop off rather than genuinely being curious and I assume that had I found an example you would simply say "that's a small portion actual complaints based on X" and you know what? Cool. You do you man. As I said, I don't believe the intent by the writers was to make Orcs an allegory to Black People, but that HAS become the association for a not-so-small amount of people. The fact that we're even having a conversation around it is testament. To you, verisimilitude is more important than making a minor adjustment to a fictional setting so that people who often don't feel welcome can feel more welcome. That ain't me. And that will never be more important to me.

@bearnaff9387

10 ай бұрын

@@pwnyboy9714 I asked because, while I was really sure of the answer, I want to be accurate more than I want to be right. If you had access to some trove of people who actually had the problem you were addressing, I wanted to see it. Yes, I would have given any source you provided a good eye-balling and probably followed up on anything it cited - but if it stood up to a couple of minutes scrutiny, I would have just adjusted my views. It's not like I've never been wrong about the facts of a matter before. Of course, googling for the subject just backs up what I said before. There _are_ bits about the color black being evil-coded in Western mythologizing and storytelling, some of which reference the Uruk-Hai's coloration being reminiscent of Black skin. There are lots of articles disputing the claim and pooh-poohing the idea. Google didn't find me anything from Black people saying that they saw themselves in Orcs. And yes, when making a world verisimilitude is very important. Readers and players should be able to use their common sense to work out details of how a world works, and not be surprised by things that defy their expectations without an explanation for the difference between their real-life understanding and what the fiction presents. Verisimilitude separates good art from bad in terms of worldbulding. A story that has an explanation for _why_ a pre-industrial city that isn't a major port or capital has a diverse population is better than one whose reasoning is "diversity is good!" There should be a good reason for things like that in a world where most married couples are born within 30 miles of one another. As for making changes to a world made by someone else for convenience and shallow points-farming, that's just despicable. If someone wants to make a thoroughly modern setting, they should make the setting, not mess about with someone else's work.