It's kind of annoying that so many people in the comments can't accept specific criticism of the VOC. Also, Casey never said that no empire other than the Dutch committed atrocities in the name of trade, wealth and colonialism. She also makes it clear that not everything the VOC did can be considered theft nor was everything achieved through force or harm. She clearly states this video is to examine the dark side - not the only side - of the VOC. Perhaps try to consider this video as one briefly covered chapter in a History text book on the subject of the Dutch Golden Era. She acknowledges that many other empires traded, colonised and exploited other countries. She mentions the brutal colonisation of Australia by the British which has still not signed a treaty with the Indigenous/First Nations people of Australia - as an Australian myself, I can tell you that millions of Australians are deeply ashamed of our bloody history and angry that virtually nothing is being done to remedy this - instead their is resistance by our Government to admit wrongs and start making things right. The plight of Aboriginal Australians today is totally unacceptable with a massive gap in life expectancy, high suicide rates, systemic racism, disproportionate incarceration and over 400 deaths in custody in the last 30 years without a single prosecution of the perpetrators, about which there are massive protests going on in Australia as I type this - this is just to hardly scrape the surface of Australia's dark heart. It's totally unrealistic to go into depth on all of these elements in one video. Please try to hold two opposing thoughts in your mind simultaneously - the Dutch Golden Era is part of the incredible, unique history of a wonderful country and yet it had some darker elements that can be discussed without completely disregarding any good or pride that the Dutch can have in their history. She is not dismissing the VOC as wholly bad, she's discussing one element in a massively expansive topic that cannot be covered in one video so it's just focusing on a specific element - the darker side and where it could be argued that theft took place (There must be Dutch scholars that refer to theft, it's not a new concept that Casey just made up). It's impossible to cover everything and unrealistic try to premise everything in one video. Again, if it helps to not get emotionally triggered, consider this as one chapter in a History text book on the subject of the Dutch Golden Era.

@SuperRaoulinho

3 жыл бұрын

Agreed, a lot of whataboutism going on here. Sure, Holland stole and murdered a lot but look at those other countries! As if that makes it less bad.

@ReneeKirkenier

3 жыл бұрын

Many bad things happened in the past. Everybody knows that already and much has changed for the better. What’s the point of looking back? It makes more sense to look at what is not going right right now and try to change that.

@Dutchbelg3

3 жыл бұрын

I agree that it should be mentioned in history lessons that not all was great and honest. But i don’t feel ashamed to be Dutch. It is part of our history and it should not happen again..

@DenUitvreter

3 жыл бұрын

That's all true and I don't mind specifically her or this video. But it seems to be a general attitude in the English speaking world. 'This Netherlands country looks lovely, they must have stolen it all because they're only a small country'. It's even people from London of all places, which got far less of it's wealth from fair trade, who start wondering about the origins of wealth for the first time in Amsterdam, and get it wrong because the British have no idea about the Baltic Sea trade and the Mediterranean because they weren't competing in it. I never see an English video in front of a herring stand explaining where Dutch wealth came from, which would make a lot more sense than the VOC, or about Dutch dominance in the Baltic, which makes even more sense. Or an American comparing it to the current American exploitation and extortion practices as a trade empire with a bit of murder on the side. This is also not a video in a series about Dutch history, and after a video about the herring trade, the 80-years war, the Baltic Sea trade and the good side of the VOC, now also a video about it's dark side of the VOC. No, it's straight in with the VOC's crimes, which were certainly there, and the suggestion that that has contributed to Dutch wealth significantly, which simply isn't correct. So I do understand people getting defensive. I don't blame her, but I do believe people are right to correct the wrong parts and nuance the correct parts.

@ronaldderooij1774

3 жыл бұрын

@@DenUitvreter Spot on. Exactly my feelings.

The Gouden Eeuw and the following period, the Zilveren Eeuw were part of my history classes in high school (2003-2009). Here's what I remember: What we learned is that, yes, the VOC was important, but it was merely one of the pillars of our economy. For the first half of the 17th century, the real money was still being made by what was called the "moedernegotie" (the mother of all trade): trade with cities along the Baltic sea. I believe we bought grain there, traded that for fish in Norway, and took the fish back home. Also, the entire continent was constantly at war with itself, and the Dutch managed to stay out of that for the most part, whilst selling weapons to everybody and their cousins. That made us a pretty penny as well. From what I remember, my teachers also didn't shy away from the atrocities that were committed in the name of profit. Granted, we didn't linger on them, but they were always mentioned as the other side of the coin. Our ancestors were not above committing genocide if it meant they could make more money. That being said, we were taught most wealth extracted was not directly stolen, but rather traded under (admittedly extortionate) contract. Such contracts were so restrictive that the native people could hardly survive without breaking said contracts. Then, when our trading "partner" was in breach of contract, we imagined ourselves justified in taking all their stuff in retribution, and suddenly we had a real colony. I remember when our prime minister Balkenende talked about bringing back the "old VOC-mentality". Most people cringed more than a bit at that, knowing that he was referring to the romanticized version of the VOC that was taught in the past.

@caseykilmore

3 жыл бұрын

I've really enjoyed getting all the extra bits of information regarding this topic especially from people of all different ages. My favourite part about making these videos is learning from all the stories and information I read in the comments that helps me learn so much more. I've seen the KZread video of him referring to this while I was researching this topic. The reaction from the crowd was as you described very awkward. My own country's history is not very well taught at all and as a foreigner when you go to places like the Rijksmuseum it always feels like this time is being celebrated. perhaps you learn both sides of the coin to speak at school but culturally is this being reflected to how it's displayed in the places that matter.

@mrrit

3 жыл бұрын

So you said exactly what I remember as well, I graduated high school in 2010. It’s funny, because when I lived in Australia I learned so many new things I never knew before. Like the ware around Indonesia, like you said in the video, it’s wasn’t part of the Republic, however, the wouldn’t leave either. Apparently after James cook discover the east coast of Australia and the uk started to use the Australian east coast, whiled the Dutch had the west but barely used it. The uk became threatened and tried invading Indonesia, the. Portugal followed, Spain tried, and it ended with the republic officially colonizing Indonesia. This all happened in like twenty years time (don’t remember the years), but they made this animation of the land of Australia from India to Japan. And the flags just kept changing. We never learned about these wars, and didn’t focus all to deep on the other countries either. Like Germany had several colonies too, but this was never mentioned. History is thought in this single point of view, with the country in the middle. I believe they changes the exams for secondary schools and the focus more on generic world history. Which is so important, because I wish I had learn more about the east, African history and South America. Instead, it was Europe, America and a bit Canada for us. As for the dark side, my teacher went also in to the slave trades and murders, but too damn short. We should be thought the numbers and the true extent of hurt we’ve caused. An according to the youth on the news, this is still not happening.

@pingienator

3 жыл бұрын

@@caseykilmore It's a tricky thing, teaching this part of Dutch history. It is arguably the time when we peaked as a world power, and we still reap the benefits today. The voyages that people made were much more dangerous than in modern times, and there's no denying that what they achieved is very impressive. But there is also no denying that these impressive feats were achieved using methods that we find despicable today. I admit that, even as I write this, I find it difficult to truly condemn our colonialist ancestors, though. Colonialism has undeniably caused tremendous damage to large parts of our world, but I do not believe that the colonial powers acted out of malice. Ambition, greed, a hunger for power, and a lack of empathy, yes. But also self preservation. Most people back then were just looking out for themselves, making the most of what the world threw at them, and didn't know better. The best thing we can do now is teach people the whole picture, both the good and the bad, and do our best to help the parts of the world that suffered at our hands reach our level of development and comfort, whilst helpling then avoid making the same mistakes we did.

@marcusfranconium3392

3 жыл бұрын

@@caseykilmore If interested there was a history series in the Donald Duck comics spaning from 5000 bc up to 1980s Called van Nul tot NU you can still buy it online a series of 5 hardcover comic books . telling all the good the bad and ugly ,

@kalu9541

2 жыл бұрын

I believe we didn't trade the grain for fish, but we stored it. In hard times for other countries (war, hunger etc.), we would sell the grain for a very high price.

As far i can remember from my school days, there was more emphasis on the dubious role of the West Indies company. They traded directly in slaves, shipping them to the America’s.

@dutchman7623

3 жыл бұрын

Correct! Not the VOC but the WIC. And there are far more bias subjects in this video.

This is very interesting to me as a South African, as we were taught that the settlement in Cape Town was started as a halfway food station for the VOIC's ships.

@a3veis371

3 жыл бұрын

It is

@johanvink2337

3 жыл бұрын

It is she didn't specifically say it wasn't she described how it was founded if I am understanding it correctly. As a question do you speak Zuid Afrikaans and if so do you understand dutch well. From what I have heard from the language it is easy to understand only modern inventions are different sometimes.

@codex4046

3 жыл бұрын

@@johanvink2337 From my understanding, Dutch speakers find it relatively easy to understand Afrikaans, but not the other way around. (source: two Afrikaans speaking people I know)

@ronaldderooij1774

3 жыл бұрын

You were taught correctly.

@carimavandijk1091

3 жыл бұрын

@@codex4046 that's what I heard as well once but I have no clue if it's actually true

The VOC was started (1602) smack bang in the middle of the 80 years war (1568-1648) with Spain. Then it was involved in 4 wars with England. And after the VOC "died" the French invaded. Grabbing land was the way to go then in Europe, like it is still in a lot of the world today. Be glad you live in the longest interbellum this part of the world has ever seen.

@hendrikusscherphof7348

3 жыл бұрын

Back then the economic theory most rulers followed was mercantilism. That theory implies that, since there is only a limited amount of gold, the only way to increase national prosperity was to take something away from another nation. Thank god (and Adam Smith) we stopped shaping policy around that idea

@ronaldderooij1774

3 жыл бұрын

@@hendrikusscherphof7348 It will return with the environment. There is limited "milieugebruiksruimte" on earth and we are going to 9 billion people in the next century. So, yeah.

@hendrikusscherphof7348

3 жыл бұрын

@@ronaldderooij1774 but we keep getting better at using those resources with better technologies

@ronaldderooij1774

3 жыл бұрын

@@hendrikusscherphof7348 Let us hope it is not too little, too late. Scientific knowledge on climate and on agriculture is rather bleak on the future of mankind. When I also ask civil engineers, the end for the Netherlands is nigh (sea level rising).

In *my* school days -- late '60s and early '70s, the atrocities were not mentioned. We learned that the VOC had made us wealthy, and that they had tought us to learn the languages of whomever we dealt with. But all the horrible things that were done in name of the almighty Guilder (the Dutch monetary unit of those days, the "Gulden") were kept from us. We were made aware of the fact that the "Seven Provinces" (in those days the main body of the Netherlands) 'owned' a number of colonies, like Surinam, Indonesia, South Africa, and others. But our history books did not speak of how those colonies had become our ' property'. The majority of these colonies have now regained their freedom, their sovereignty, but most of them are still scarred, and you can still feel the influence that the Dutch have had on them. The slave trade -- moving people of African descent to the Americas, selling them as beasts of burden, as cheap labor -- was mostly done by the Dutch, on Dutch vessels, out of South Africa. We Dutch should be ashamed opf what our ancestors have done. Of course, we can never undo the damage, and we can never repay those that were harmed, because they died several generations ago. But we can at least acknowledge what te have done, and how wrong it was. We can at least rewrite our history books to show how we REALLY became such a wealthy nation. Thank you for the lesson, Casey. I appreciate it immensely.

@Ed19601

2 жыл бұрын

Maybe you went to the wrong school coz i learned about it in that same period. If you now see caseys video as a lesson you must be a very slow learner

@Man-in-the-green

Жыл бұрын

I am not at all ashamed what my ancestors did hundreds of years ago. The Dutch were fighting the British, The French, The Spaniards etc. Etc. BTW the Ashanti people in Ghana sold their own people to us. So did the Arabs.

@ChristiaanHW

11 ай бұрын

@@Man-in-the-green that's something people always seem to "forget". without the Africans capturing and enslaving other Africans there wouldn't be any trans Atlantic slave-trade. for the "white people" to be able to buy those people the African people had to offer them to them. if we have to keep dredging up the the past at least tell the whole story and not just the parts that fit whatever you want to say.

Don't make the common mistake to view actions from the 17th century by the Spanish, Portugese, Dutch or the English with the values we have in the 21st century. That is, according to all historians very wrong. Having said that, I went to primary and secondary school from 1969 to 1981 and I can guarantee you that there was more than enough on the downsides of the Dutch 17th century like slave trade, suppression, diseases, wars and the like. My son went to school (primary and secondary) from 2005 to 2018 and it did not change (still a lot of downsides). Do I feel guilty? No. It was the way things were done back then. Trade = trying to have a monopoly and kill or make subjects everyone that tried to interfere. Nowadays I would not support such actions of course! In terms of the influence of the VOC on current wealth, that relation is very indirect. The Netherlands were robbed bare at least twice since the VOC ended (by the French and by the Germans). So yeah, there you go. Of course we still had the knowledge and the infrastructure and the geography to be a successful trading nation after being robbed bare. So, that is an indirect benefit. And oh, the first expeditions to the east were not by the VOC (it did not exist yet). The support from the Dutch government was because Portugal and Spain were under the same crown, the Netherlands was in its 80 year war of independence against Spain, so it all started in fact to aggressively destroy the colonies of Portugal and Spain. The trade came later. And another point, the VOC did not make any profit between 1602 and 1631. The costs of building up an army, many forts, a lot of ships, etc were too high to make a profit. A whole generation invested in it without ever seeing a return on investment. That prompted the trade in shares!

@stlouisix3

2 жыл бұрын

Agreed. Because Dutchmen were mostly Christians (Catholics) and Protestants, they were far more peaceful than Ott'man Turcs and others. The Dutch built up the East Indies very well & successfully☦✝💯👍

Always a bit awkward to judge a society of 400 years ago with the norms and values of the 21th century. We don't do that with Greek and Roman societies either, do we ... But a VERY, VERY solid piece of research, Casey! A few points: - Although the rise and fall of the VOC was spectacular, it's impact on the Dutch economy was actually limited. Some 10% of its income. Most profit came from the much more affordable (and less corrupted) Baltic and Mediterranean trade. - There was another trade company, the WIC (West India Company), to trade with America. It was considerably less successful. They were the ones that turned to industrial slave trade. Not the VOC. Which does not go to say that the VOC didn't performs several other acts that with today's morals (!) we tend to frown upon ...

@onsterfelijke

2 жыл бұрын

more or less correct!

We never stole we conquered. VOC 4 life

In 2006, then Prime Minister Jan-Peter Balkende called for bringing "VOC-mentality" back into the Netherlands, and was criticized heavily for that. Balkenende over de VOC-mentaliteit - 2006 - KZread When I was at primary school, the VOC was essentialy portrayed as the glory days of Dutch civilisation. In High School, we learned more about the dark sides of the "Golden Age". The Dutch influence (colonialism) in Indonesia has had its impact far into the 20th century. After WWII Indonesian soldiers who had fought for the KNIL against Japan, were brought back to the Netherlands, and were "housed" in former Nazi concentration camps, such as Westerbork or Kamp Vught. Given empty promises by the Dutch government to return to Indonesia and support with the RMS (independent Republic of the South Maluku). All this led to the 1975 train hijacking in Wijster, the 1977 train hostage at De Punt and the occupation of a primary school in Bovensmilde in the same year, by angered Moluccan youngsters.

@caseykilmore

3 жыл бұрын

This is sooooo interesting! I never knew any of this!! I'd love to start making videos of unknown histories of the Netherlands this has certainly peaked my interest so thanks for sharing

@Maarten_Bondzio

3 жыл бұрын

@@caseykilmore I don't know if you are able to watch npostart.nl in Australia, but there's a documentary series running now about 70 years Moluccans in the Netherlands. On npostart is also the movie De Punt, about the train hostage.

@caseykilmore

3 жыл бұрын

@@Maarten_Bondzio Well lucky I've made it back to the netherlands so I'll for sure be getting my hands on these resources and hopefully in the future can make a video about it :)

@maximhollandnederlandthene7640

2 жыл бұрын

And this girl is stalking about the past. More actual is what White Australian do to the real Australian, the Aboriginals ! Shame them and then come telling a story about the VOC. A bit weird isnt it 🙂

@maximhollandnederlandthene7640

2 жыл бұрын

@@caseykilmore Tell your own history first ! Your just a negative person to the Netherlands, whats your problem?

The slave trade happened somewhat accidentally. During the latter parts of the eighty years war, Portugal and Spain entered into a union, which meant the Netherlands was also at war with Portugal. They conquered most of the Brazilian coast. The new governor of Brazil needed labour to work the lands and keep the colony running. He sent a request to the States General asking wether he could get slaves. The States General was kind of uncomfortable with the idea and denied the request. The governor went out to get slaves anyway, because he couldn't run the colony otherwise, and the States General just sort of accepted it

@DenUitvreter

3 жыл бұрын

I thought he got permission on the condition that the slaves would be freed after seven years and were taught christianity in the mean time. But there was already a shift in thinking, the merchant was getting the upper hand of the preacher man for a while. The bitter irony is that the man who got us in the slavetrade, Johan Maurits, was an otherwise very enlightened man. He was in love with Brazil, he took artists there and was planning to build a university. In Brazil he's credited for creating a multiracial, multireligious free society and he described the converted native as 'the true Brazilian'.

@joriskbos1115

3 жыл бұрын

@@DenUitvreter You're probably right. I'm not an expert by any means

I am Indonesian so of course in school I learned about all the dark side of VOC since we are colonized for 3,5 centuries, but well, it became part of our history and culture and not all of it was bad, and many grandmas here able to speak Dutch and we have many words somewhat taken from the Dutch language.

@SAMUDRAMAC

3 жыл бұрын

Love Indonesia and met several older people speaking Dutch. No excuse for the bad things that were done, but I do recognize your reaction, saying it was not all bad. I had taks with young Indonesians during my visits and got the same reaction, pointing out some of the good things that were done, like the sawah system and infrastructure ( I heard many railroads are still Dutch built).

@nocomment00

3 жыл бұрын

This is 1 of the biggest lies. Indonesia wasn't fully colonized for 350 years. That's a lie

@ashokafulcrum4795

2 жыл бұрын

The Indonesians want to make the Dutch as evil in their historybooks. as the Dutch want to make themselves as Rightious, in theirs. The Truth, per usual is somewhere in the Middle. And often what the person wants to make of it.

@metalvideos1961

Жыл бұрын

As a dutchman i am wondering. do you still have something Dutch in your culture? can i for example if i visit Indonesia see something of our colonial past?

@metalvideos1961

Жыл бұрын

@@nocomment00 Not fully but most was. The enormous archipelago was occupied by the Netherlands for about 350 years. Very Indonesia? No. For a long time, the Netherlands only had something to say in a limited number of places. It was not until the twentieth century that the tentacles of our small country reached every corner of the colony. And even then there were places on the more than 16,000 islands where Queen Wilhelmina had nothing to say. How could 20,000 Europeans rule over the large Indonesia with forty million people around 1900? Eight steps to getting scandalously rich off a colony

Hi Casey, great video as usual. The 17th century is not only called the Golden Age because of the money that the VOC brought in. During this period Dutch minds made innovations that pushed humanity forward in many terrains like art, technology, philosophy, and engineering. The influence of people like Rembrandt, Vermeer and Hals on art is well known, Van Leeuwenhoek invented the microscope and discovered bacteria, Huygens invented the pendulum clock and Hugo Grotius laid the foundation for international law. Influential philosophers like Spinoza and Descartes did not just write and publish their work here, many argue they would not have been able to say what they did in any other country than the Netherlands in that period in time. I fully agree we should be critical of the crimes against humanity committed by the VOC, and perhaps the term Golden Age isn't appropriate anymore, but it was a bit more than a 100 years of slaving and stealing.

@Man-in-the-green

3 ай бұрын

Well you may call it golden age because the Dutch got very rich (not VOC or WIC) by the trade with the Baltic countries. Grain, beer, herring etc. etc..

Well done, Tracey. During those centuries many other countries did the same: Spain. Portugal, England. Later followed by France, Germany, USA, Japan, . Which brings us to todays biggest player: China. "Niets nieuw onder de zon." Just the names and methodes have changed.

@bramharms72

3 жыл бұрын

Very true. But if you read about amazon warehouses or chinese sweatshops than the methods don't even seem to have changed that much.

@marcusfranconium3392

3 жыл бұрын

Its a shame people still dwell on things over 150 years ago slavery that has been gone in european colonies for over 170 years. and the same people dont give a damn about the modern slavery in northern africa ,and doing nothing,

So a light topic this time, comment section should also be an easy read then :) Thanks as always.

Thank you for bringing this topic up! As an Indonesian living in The Netherlands, there is always a contestation I encounter during the historical-related discussions, especially about Indonesia (Nederlands-Indie) and The Netherlands. Growing up I was taught that everything related to the Dutch in our (Indonesian version) history is bad. It was a complete historical shock during my initial time here when I met (Dutch) people (and sometimes organizations too) who can't accept criticism or even simply acknowledging the Dutch's colonial era. What happened in the past is really depends on who sees it and it is indeed not completely black and white. I am still learning the dynamic that happened and still happening between the two countries, although I am still strongly against colonization. The museum's decolonization of the term The Golden Era was one of the right steps to do, as well as the apology from the king during his visit to Indonesia in March last year. Both countries still have a long way to overcoming this dark history and having the ability to criticizing history like what you have done with this video is very important.

@ronaldderooij1774

3 жыл бұрын

I think most Dutch people are perfectly OK to say that with the eyes and values of today, what we did in Indonesia was generally very wrong. But that does not mean that we think that we owe something, like reparations. It is impossible. How many countries would the Netherlands have to get reparations from? Spain, France, Germany, Morocco, Algiers.... the list goes on. It is useless to remain in the past like this. I hope that we can build friendship and mutual interest in the future between the Netherlands, Indonesia, Morocco, Algiers, Germany and France.

@adboronnia2506

3 жыл бұрын

​@@ronaldderooij1774 I completely agree with you. I don't think actual reparations or special treatment are needed. What I have found problematic is the lack of official acknowledgment and rooms for critical discussions about what happened in the past in order to build a better world together. Therefore I highlighted the act of museum decolonization and official acknowledgment (in this case what has been done by the king) as a very positive step.

@rever-mi6qz

2 жыл бұрын

"Both countries still have a long way to overcoming this dark history" this is true, but I don't see the Indonesian government apologizing to The Netherland for the bersiap period anytime soon. During the bersiap tens of thousands of Dutch and other mixed people were slaughtered by Indonesian nationalists purely because of their ethnicity.

@ronaldderooij1774

2 жыл бұрын

@@rever-mi6qz That's the problem, isn't it? The Dutch got involved in Asia because they were at war with Spain and Portugal. That was not otherwise necessary. The trade with the baltics were profitable enough. The Bersiap period came because the Indonesians got into war with the Dutch. And so the misery accumulates.

@mafiafankyl

2 жыл бұрын

@@ronaldderooij1774 Well, it was more because there was no real government at the time because the Japanese just surrenderd, then they took that chance to start the killing.

You’re totally right. We just don’t learn this in school (I’m an old guy) and many will be defensive.

You were very good informed about the in and outs of the VOC, but I doubt whether the financial figures are correct. Imagine that when we compare the trade between the West and the grain trade with the Baltic Sea. The latter was called at that time the Mother trade (The Hanze), which was far more profitable.

Very interesting video and thank you for casting some light into the shadows. Im a South African and the destructive inhumane history of the VOC, Spanish and British empires are still rippling throughout South African society today. As a country it's in our history... It's in the school curriculum. We learn about these imperialist conquests as children and carry its burden in our consciousness and its effects in our daily lives... A burden too heavy for children to carry let alone adults. As a nation we are still trying to rebuild from the destruction of the imperialist era and the apartheid supremacist culture that ensued thereafter. Personally, I feel one cannot build on rotting foundations especially the rot of the past injustices nor the rot of present day political corruption and injustices. The intergenerational trauma, cultural and social annihilation and socio-psychological scars are all intangible but they are there in SA society. That is not to say that modern Dutch society should provide any recompense for past injustice nor offer any solution at all, but sweeping things under the carpet pretending it's not there is careless/callous at best. What should be done is to disarm the prejudice and instead provide an offering of understanding in shifting perspectives and acquiring a lens to see deeper into things or at the very least empathy and care toward your fellow man on the street.

@KootFloris

2 жыл бұрын

Very well voiced. I agree. But tribalism within trade is a thing too. We see it currently with the war in Ukraine. Russia Bad, Ukraine good. To criticize the Ukrainian side suddenly is only seen as pro-Russia, rather than accept that humanity always suffers when we think in sides. Like in this case as we see in other comments, many Dutch seem to say: well we were not as bad as some others, like Spain, or Arab slavery. We have to learn to look beyond sides, and that takes time. The greed of capitalism, modern media, eh, propaganda make it even harder. All we can do, like you do, is keep pointing out consequences without being too judgemental, yet show how the echoes of the past, still impact and hurt in the present.

@KhoikhoitvAfrika

Жыл бұрын

I'm a KHOIKHOI First nation person in South and the evils of the Dutch and how they raped, murdered and enslaved people are not taught in SA. Coloniser descendants are really protected from learning about how there ancestors came to KHOIKHOI First nation land.

@ronaldderooij1774

Жыл бұрын

@@KhoikhoitvAfrika Well, I learned about it in Dutch school in I think 1974. And again in 1979. And my son again in 2007 and in 2015. And it was on a popular TV series with Hans Goedkoop on Dutch TV. It was horrible, it should never have happened, and it should never happen again. And it is happening again, in Ukraine/Russia right now where thousands of Ukrainian children are abducted to serve Russian society and destroy Ukrainian culture. But I might sound harsh or cold, but the Apartheid, is not a Dutch phenomenon. It was a South African phenomenon. It could have played out differently, but people in South Africa chose not to.

Hi Casey. Wow. This is a very sensitive topic for a lot of people both inside and outside the Netherlands. When I was in school, the basics of the VOC were taught, but not the worst atrocities. There was some mention of the massacre on the Banda islands, but that was only in middle school, not primary school. For me as a child, it was clear though, because of the many guns sticking out of VOC ships on pictures for example, that there must have been a lot of violence involved. I was also taught about the slave trade with the West Indies and the practice of piracy, primarily by the VOC's largest competitor, the WIC, again without the atrocities. This was in the seventies and eighties. Later, a lot more information became available. One quick remark: Indonesia was not one country when the Europeans arrived. The archipel was divided in a lot of independent kingdoms or sultanates. The Dutch quickly learned to play divide and conquer between said kingdoms when they settled. They also faced competition from Portugese, Spanish and English trading posts. I recently read an excellent, albeit heartbreaking book on the early days of the VOC, specifically the tragic voyage of the VOC ship Batavia in 1629, that I can recommend. The book is called Batavia, by the Australian author Peter Fitzsimons.

@ronaldderooij1774

3 жыл бұрын

The book the Batavia is fantastic. Well written, well documented. I am amazed nobody made a movie out of that book.

@Conclusius68

3 жыл бұрын

@@ronaldderooij1774 I thought about that too. But the movie would be too violent even for Hollywood and it has no happy ending. The atrocities in the story are too much for a paying audience.

@ronaldderooij1774

Жыл бұрын

@@Conclusius68 Yeah you are probably right. Although it has some sort of a happy ending, the good guys won, eventually.

Very good and well researched story! The Dutch already were a trading country before the VOC, so they were already kind of wealthy but the VOC exploded it. It was later taken over by the UK made possible by their Dutch king William who set up their fleet and company structures which formed the basis for the UK taking over the imperiums.

@songsnewsmienskipbyarendar9064

3 жыл бұрын

They hardly existe before the VOC..... There was no such thing as "Dutch" before the late 16th century. There was no Dutch nation untill the late 18th century. Yet there was a very lose confederation, that's fact. But in the early days of VOC there was no "Dutch trading nation", it didnt exist, VOC was Hollandic not Dutch. Maybe one chamber was outside Holland... Moment factcheck....

@songsnewsmienskipbyarendar9064

3 жыл бұрын

VOC was Hollandic, not Dutch. 2 chambers in Westfriesland. 2 in Holland. 1 in Zeeland.... Zeeland liked Holland, Westfriesland not to much yet was occupied by it and these days mentality wise is a bit in between Holland and Fryslân. www.voc-kenniscentrum.nl/kamers.html

@Meine.Postma

3 жыл бұрын

@@songsnewsmienskipbyarendar9064 Call it what you want, fact is Antwerp and before that Brugge were rich trading cities. What we now call the Netherlands (and Belgium) was part of the Burgundian empire and later of Spain. But they were already wealthy, which was part of why Spain wanted to keep it. Maybe read up on your history. I called it Dutch for convenience sake.

@songsnewsmienskipbyarendar9064

3 жыл бұрын

@@Meine.Postma It was a part of both the Spanish kingdom as the Holy Roman empire.. This topic is keep it nice, yet, all the lies about call things Dutch which aren't Dutch are annoying, its like calling the people allready there in Australia before the Europeans came "Australians". Its identity politics and fake history, yet in a comment on YT its fine... Its not hate-speach.... Problem is, tax payers paid stations also spread this fake history..... That's not OK, that's abuse of power...

@songsnewsmienskipbyarendar9064

3 жыл бұрын

Yet just like most Dutchies don't care about the greed of VOC, they also dont care about fake history..... Key events which caused Dutch indepedence:: inbreeding which created insanity in the top of feudal circles, changes in society which made people with a lot of economic power desire more political power, beeldenstorm (THE landmark of the revolution against the Spanish king). Dutch language started to exist because in most of the Bourgondian colonies, people didn't understand French,so they used the kind of "German" people spoke back then in cities in Flanders as the standard for Dutch. Intresting fact: Erasmus, allmost elected as the biggest Dutchie ever, wasn't Dutch because the Dutch indentity didnt exist. Yet allmost elected.... I take it with a smile, yet, also fed up with the Dutch elite. Its time to leave :) Greetings from The Frieslands :)

this was a very informative video, thank you for your amazing work

Huh, nice video, but I don't think it has ever popped up in a normal conversation conversation 😂

Wait, so there is also a light side of the VOC?

Did you know that the Roman Catholics were not allowed in the VOC? It was an all protestant realm.

do not forget that the kingdoms of spain and portugal were combined en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_Union and the dutch were at war with spain, thus also with portugal

Writing this before watching. I'm curious about what you are going to tell and how. And if I learn anything I didn't know about the VOC since it's a subject every kid gets in groep 8 (6th grade) Edit: when I was in groep 8 we didn't learn about the dark side of it. I'm not sure if the kids who are in groep 8 now learn about it.

@codex4046

3 жыл бұрын

I'm not sure how long ago it was you was in groep 8, but I remember that 17 years ago I was taught the horrific things we did in groep 5 and it was repeated in groep 7 with a reenactment series about the whole slave trade, from letting african tribes capture people from other tribes, the Dutch branding them, shipping them, auctioning, branding them again etc. For us the "good" side of it was a secondary thing as an explanation of why our ancestors did these horrible things.

@trottlesnot

3 жыл бұрын

I dont recall what i learned about the VOC in primary school (in the 1980's). In general i dont recall the history lessons being particularly interesting. However, in high school (1988-1994) we got extensive lessons on VOC, WIC, colonialism, slave trade etc with each and every dark side included.

This is very negative, the VOC organised a very clever tradesystem were they traded the most valuble goods between India, Japan (only country to trade with Japan) China spices from the Molukken. the spices were very costly in Europe, and that is how money was made. The monopoly was obtained by war much like nowadays we go to war to get oil. The VOC stole art in those days and in the last years the gorvernment has offered to give it back. Lots of people were treated badly by nowadays standards, but there is no way to undo it. The Netherlands is aware of the negative side off its history

@DenUitvreter

3 жыл бұрын

True, I think the 17th century Dutch empire is more like the current American neocolonial empire than like the British Empire. Mostly fair trade, but with extortion and mass murder on the side. I'm in favour of giving back stolen art but I'm not impressed with the cases made of art actually being stolen so far. Most Asian art in the Rijksmuseum is Chinese or Japanese anyway and the Dutch were never in a position to steel from them.

@ashokafulcrum4795

2 жыл бұрын

@@DenUitvreter "mass-murder", name me the bodycount? Because I still haven't found any adequate sourcing. "Extortion", is an overstatement aswell. Many Orankaya choose to trade with the Dutch willingly. Most conflicts happened mostly when those local leaders broke treaties, not when the Dutch broke it.

Read the comment from Teun van Buul. Of course there're dark sites of the VOC, but the trade with the Baltic cities (moedernegotie) was really what made Holland rich in the first place.

I teach history, and the assertion this subject is denied or downplayed is wrong. The bad the VOC/WIC did gets a lot more attention than the good. And it's almost a bigger subject in current history lessons than WW2.

@trottlesnot

3 жыл бұрын

And has been for decades........am in my mid 40's and when i was a kid we all got taught about the dark sides of the VOC, WIC etc.

Unfortunately we really weren’t taught a heck of a lot about it. I mean we were but we wert, had to keep chugging along to hit all the bullet points for standardized testing.

Some of the people who worked for the VOC when it was first created had worked for the Portuguese at first, so they already knew some of the ropes

Fascinating ! Well done !😍

De Gouden Eeuw heeft veel leed veroorzaakt en was voor lang niet iedereen een gouden eeuw.

@mafiafankyl

2 жыл бұрын

Nouja, het wordt niet alleen de 'gouden' eeuw genoemd door de rijkdommen die zijn vergaard. Ook omdat we als land op cultureel en technologisch gezien in die tijd ver vooruit waren. Al heeft de normale man en vrouw hier nauwelijks tot niks van gemerkt.

the thing is, don't judge history or don't try to undo it. or compare it. otherwise we would have to discuss if the white australian and americans should return to europe. or compare atlantic slave trade by europeans to indian ocean slave trade by the arabs ..( which lasted longer).....etc etc..

@caseykilmore

3 жыл бұрын

In my opinion history must be judged. Is it not how we form new moral codes and learn from our mistakes. You are right there is no undoing it and no comparing it. The story of the VOC is it's own but there is always something to learn from and understand all aspects of a story that's already happened. The story of the VOC is massive and branches into so many different avenues but it's an interesting one at that.

I would argue that the good outweighs the bad. They were the first publicly traded company and that financing model has brought about huge development and technological progress for humanity. Plus, the Dutch and other merchants brought more than just goods, like management, legal, and governance techniques, books and spreading a common language. The role of printed books in raising the quality of life can't be understated. Much of the technological progress we've made over the past 500 years is a direct result of that technology and without Europeans spreading out to share it, much of the world wouldn't be living nearly as comfortably as they are today. Sure, there have been growing pains, but I don't think many people in the former colonies would change things if it meant living life as it would have been without that exchange.

I remember the golden age being taught in school from age 8 onwards (at least for me). It started mainly with the small size of the ships, the amounts of slaves on board and the surviving chance for both sailors and slaves. I think I was about then when they showed a reenactment series about slavetrade from collecting them in Africa (for a lack of better words), branding them, shipping them, auctioning them, branding them again and then the labour they were forced to do. As a 10 year old boy this had so much impact that I still remember some scenes 15 years later. This all is for me also a reason to keep the name "Gouden eeuw" (Golden Age) because it definitely was a Golden Age for the Dutch and since (for me at my school) the focus was mainly on the horrific things the Dutch did (the way we benefitted from it came second), the first thing that I associate it with is the horrific things our ancestors did. Changing it's name will remove that immediate association. Teaching people about the things our ancestors did and putting disclaimers with statues etc feels to me a lot more effective than "hiding" the history and never being rememberd by it.

@marcusfranconium3392

3 жыл бұрын

Golden age is more than that slavery thing , the golden age was that no one was prosecuted for their religion , ideas , science , it was an age that made other yelous , freedom of speech , early forms of social security , any one could become succesfull an age of painters , artist , poets an age of inovation a time an african could go to a university and become a protestand minister.

Hoeveel werd er geplunderd ?

@Man-in-the-green

3 ай бұрын

Heel veel Sjaak.

Thank you for your good historic short analysis. A lot of things were wrong (to nowadays standards) in the 17th century. Still I don't get why the Rijksmuseum and the Amsterdam Museum abolished the concept "Golden Century" from their descriptions. Een schutterstuk uit de Gouden Eeuw changed into: "groepsportret uit de 17e eeuw". It must have to do with modern stupid socalled "wokeness". The architecture: (Hendrik de Keyzer nowadays Palace at the Dam and townhall Delft, Jacob van Campen, Maurits' house den Haag) painting (e.g.Rembrandt, Frans Hals, Johannes Vermeer, Pieter de Hooch, Paulus Potter, Willem Heda and the fam. van Ruysdaal), science, (Simon Stevin and Christiaan Huygens), Literature (P.C. Hooft, Vondel, Cats and Bredero), the leftovers from the 17th century, are great and of Golden quality. Did you already see the movie Michiel de Ruyter?

The way I remember this subject in school is a mixed view. Elements of the dark side were mentioned, but there was definitely more emphasis on the Dutch successes. I feel that we are gradually more willing to accept the darker shades of our history. I believe part of the recognition problem is that we are still dealing with a reminiscence of slavery: racism. Globalization makes it even harder to solve that problem.

@grewdpastor

3 жыл бұрын

It is curious that a relationship is established between racism and slavery. Slavery is almost as old as humanity and has been / is practiced all over the world. In some societies, classical slavery was finally replaced in the 19th century by contract workers, whose rights were/are just as lousy as those of slaves; examples of this abound and this was one of the reasons that socialism and communism could emerge. Racism is a 19th century concept that arose after the more widespread acceptance of Darwin's ideas in the scientific world. The fact that there is actually only one race (Homo sapiens) with varying degrees of pigmentation and different culturally determined habits does not seem to penetrate the brains of many people. Aversion to the unknown (xenophobia) is also ancient. Not specific to the European cultural circle, but occurring worldwide. Unfortunately, today xenophobia is often equated with racism and usually a specific group of the genus Homo sapiens is accused of it.

@HDS-hd6hy

3 жыл бұрын

​@@grewdpastor Wanneer de geschiedenis van Nederlandse slavernij ter sprake komt, is het bijslepen van de ganse menselijke geschiedenis hierin vaak de eerste reflex, het is je vergeven, want ook in het lokale onderwijs. Een worsteling waar, in jouw versie deze keer, ook tot loskoppelen van racisme gepoogd word met het doel de Nederlandse praktijk hierin te bagatelliseren. Prijzen per stuk gebaseerd op leeftijd, geslacht, uiterlijk en fysieke gesteldheid, de accuraat gedocumenteerde lijfstraffen, de hele "inventaris" ligt minutieus gedocumenteerd in musea, o.a. in Middelburg en Suriname. Welke definitie van racisme is hierop niet van toepassing?

@marcusfranconium3392

3 жыл бұрын

Question so many people keep dwelling on that slavery thing, but why are those same people doing nothing about the modern black slavery in northern africa , ? Awnser its easier to beat something that is no longer an issue but its much harder to actualy do something about what is current and real.

@grewdpastor

3 жыл бұрын

@@HDS-hd6hy wat een ongelooflijk neerbuigende reactie. Voor alle duidelijkheid: mijn opmerking was GEEN reflex. Lees eerst eens echt en leer uw "woke"reflex in te perken. Uw vergeving heb ik niet nodig.

@HDS-hd6hy

3 жыл бұрын

@@marcusfranconium3392 Wat een onwaarschijnlijk geniale uitspatting! Daarom doen de nazaten van de 6 miljoen holocaust slachtoffers ook niets aan het leed van de Oeigoeren dus? Kortom, het slaat natuurlijk helemaal nergens op een vergelijk op die manier te maken. Mijn punt is dat spreken over slavernij in Nederland nog steeds een heikel puntje is. Noord Afrika is daar geen tegenargument voor.

I'm from an older generation that still learned about an almost untarnished Gouden Eeuw. But I like history and I don't think there's anything there to be proud of. A few of the millionaires of their time put together money to become the billionaires of their time, over the backs of others. These people weren't us so we shouldn't be ashamed of it, but we should remember that our current prosperity is partly built on a foundation of theft and exploitation. It must have been fun for you to learn about the Hollandia Nova thing though. Or do they teach that in Australia? :-)

Fruits of conquest are not stolen, they are won.

Alot, just come here to Indonesia

The VOC was without doubt the most successful 'multinationals' of the past. In it trail came the colonization of the the Indonesian archipelagos which introduced and enforced the Cultivation System throughout Java. That was the period when the Indonesians really suffered from the Dutch manipulation of their lands. Fortunately when the Liberals gained power in 1870s and introduced the Ethical Policy which then gave rise to nationalism in Indonesia. Comparing the way the British East India Company manage their affairs in Malaya, the Malayans did have some slight advantages than the Indonesians, in particular the Javanese. There was a time when France occupied Holland, Java was temporarily given to the British under the leadership of Lieutenant Sir Stamford Raffles who became the Governor-General of Java from 1811-1816. After the war in Europe and Napoleon was defeated, the British handed over Java back to the Dutch. I wonder what could have happened today had the British refused to hand over Java and made Java their own colony along with Singapore and Malaya or maintained Java but handed Malaya to the Dutch. When I read history in school in particular about this temporary British occupation of Java, I wished that Raffles didn't have to give back Java to the Dutch. After the 1824 Treaty of London, what the Dutch did to Malacca's 'A Famosa' was deeply regretted. The Portuguese heritage in that city is now left only of the ruin of the 'A Famosa' gate and the Dutch Stadhuys and the Christ Church.

I can literally make a t-shirt company by using the VOC logo like how gucci make their things

yes, we are sitting on technology

Actually a lot of silver went to the east indies, we the VOC worked through local kings...Not much stealing going on there...You do not last that long by stealing.. We did the same as the locals did..

@caseykilmore

3 жыл бұрын

Okay fair point if it's a deal than it's a deal. How fair is a deal though if it involves extortion or threats. Is it really by choice that a lot of these lands entered these deals? When is a deal made under those circumstances fair and not considered stealing? I don't have the answer but just food for thought or how I see the "deals" being made back then.

@SideWalkAstronomyNetherlands

3 жыл бұрын

@@caseykilmore the dutch became the same as the local traders......our wealth came from Trade with the Baltics actually...not from the east indies...the trade with the baltics was called the mother trade.. even.. de moedernegotie look up: Moedernegotie in wikipedia if you want to know more... the east indies was all about the war with Spain.., specially the west Indien Company was started for that reason, to weaken Spain..

@marcusfranconium3392

3 жыл бұрын

True voc mostly traded goods from asia with asian nations ,

@ashokafulcrum4795

2 жыл бұрын

@@caseykilmore you think the world of trade was ever a fair game? Off coarse the Dutch extorted and threatened sometimes, but isn't it something every Empire has done to have trade in it's favour?

Walter Iam Dutch and since a few months i learn a lot of holland history and the VOC ( mainly foreign articles on KZread) and also that de dutch created the American dream, started in New Amsterdam (New York). In some way it makes me proud and an the other side its make sad. These 200 years changed the world compleet. The dutch government should speak out and should say sorry too mainly the africans.

@mafiafankyl

2 жыл бұрын

No, we shouldn't. Yes, it was an dark part of our history, but we gotta move on with each other. Do we need to get a sorry from Spain? I don't think so.

@ChristiaanHW

11 ай бұрын

@@mafiafankyl i'm still waiting for a sorry from the Italians for all the raids the Romans did into the Low lands. lets see how long we have to wait for that, it's already over 1500 years and still no remorse shown from those pesky Romans.

Stolen Khoikhoi First nation wealth are still funding the Dutch in the Netherlands and in South Africa. In South Africa they call themselves Afrikaners today.

I must say, you are very brave making this. Many Dutch are very protective (yet devided) about this subject. In this time and age we look at that period of time with different eyes. I leave it at that. Like you said, this company made The Netherlands what is is today.

Could we not see this as the growing up.

Actually you are very misinformed. VOC bread and butter was buy wood/trees from Sweden and sell up the river rijn in Germany, at top years over 1000 ships sailed daily to Sweden. The Far East was a prestige project, mainly used to get investors interested, a handful of ships sailed to the east, lots of resources were needed against piracy, competitive countries and bad weather. Only half of the ships came back. The VOC only lost insane amounts of money on the trips to the Indies.

Fair assessment

For the sake of convenience, you forget the share of what the British stole after the VOC including Australia.

@caseykilmore

3 жыл бұрын

hahaha maybe not convenience but for the sake of not making an hour long video! This topic is soooooo big and branches into so many smaller avenues. I didn't want to focus on the british empire because my channel is Dutch focused and what I can learn about your culture, how I interpret that and my findings as a foreigner who didn't grow up with this story in school. Comparing one atrocity to another wasn't the point of this video but you're not wrong what the british did to Australia was appalling and something I think that is not taught in schools as balanced as what I think today's younger dutch generation get when it comes to the VOC.

@sabineaalbers4072

3 жыл бұрын

@@caseykilmore I really think you should mention the British in this too. Not because your channel is focused on the Netherlands. But because the British here are part of what happened in the VOC era. Four wars at sea with the British and 80 years of war with the Spanish in the same period. And I'm not really proud of this era... But if you tell a story? Tell the whole story.

@SuperRaoulinho

3 жыл бұрын

@Sabine Aalbers The whole story? be realistic please, Casey´s video are about the Netherlands/ Holland. You can´t expect her to tell the whole story of every European country that went abroad to fill their pockets and the crimes that they committed.

De VOC was echt gebaseerd lol en ik ben indonesisch. So much of colonial studies are biased against the colonialists, and Indonesian colonial history was (and still is) highly used as anti-colonial propaganda. In Indonesian history classes it is always taught that the Dutch, the VOC, and the Dutch East Indies were one continuous and integrated entity, thus pulling the blame on all of The Netherlands. But was it really so? A counter-example would be that the Dutch government had no idea what was happening in the colonies, both during the VOC and during the Dutch East Indies, making them rather oblivious towards the mistreatment of the locals and (mis)implementation of policies. The case of the Waworuntu-Gallois confrontation, I think, exemplifies this quite well. Even as an Indonesian I find it hard to believe the many claims against the colonialists, leaving out the circumstances where they actually gained immense favour with the local people (such as Minahassa or Ceylon). I would find it much more interesting (and perhaps more controversial) to find studies that shed good light on colonialism, especially on the colonies. Again, never take for granted one side of the story.

#voc #company had #spies to go against #competition

History only writted by them 🤛🏻, and you don't really know what happen to they 🤚🏽

These times .there wasn.t human rights.

You read Dutch now, no need to regurgitate anglocentrism with it's remnants from 17th to 19th century chauvinistic propaganda. The Dutch colonial empire was not a miniature version of the British Empire or anything like the French. It was a trade empire, the Dutch Republic did not want to conquer and rule like the European monarchies, because of who they were, a republic trading nation run by protestants, but also because they didn't have the manpower to run an empire and oppress people over large area's. The VOC started as a self financing war machine, war and trade were intertwined and it was not only the aim to make money, but also to prevent the Iberian union and therefore the Spanish Empire from making the money and finance the war against the Dutch Republic, end it's independence, end freedom of relgion and burn the protestants and the naughty cathollics at the stake. This also meant the VOC hardly did any stealing or robbing, they did divide an rule, bribing of local rulers, extortion and general unfair trade practices, and some massacres and slavery on the side, but the latters do not characterize the VOC. But the vast majority of it's trade was between Asian empires, monarchies and sultanates or whatever because there was money in proper trade and that's what the Dutch were good at and these were much shorter journeys, until the late 19th century the Dutch only controlled a tiny bit of Indonesia. Often more than half of the crew was Asian too, not slaves, simply the same underpaid risky job as for the Europeans, who were often not Dutch either. This was not the 18th century Briish Empire but the 17th century Dutch with the crappy guns of those days. The Moghuls in India send a ship home empty because it were smelly water peasants without diplomatic skills, they had to bring gifts and bow for the Chinese before even starting trading and leave the gun ship escort in the open sea, and in Japan they were confined to a little island but were the only foreigners allowed at all because they were traders and not conquerers. The VOC was glorified in the Netherlands in the late 19th century for national reasons, but really wasn't such an economic powerhouse. It was very impressive to the English back then too, but they were a backward poor country stuck in feudal practices compared to the modern Dutch Republic. Peak VOC around 1660 still couldn't match the herring trade in turnover and profit as it never had or would. The herring trade was very important to the Dutch economy in the 14th century, but in the late 16th and 17th century it was dwarfed by the Baltic Sea trade. Wood, wheat, salt, beer, wine, simply regular steady low risk bulk shipping. The moedernegotie it was called. Fair trade between equals like Poles, Ests, Lets, Danes, Swedes, Fins, Russians etc. MId 17th century the Dutch had a bigger merchant fleet than the British, Spanish/Portugese union and France combined. They did more than half of Europe's trade and besides al but monopolizing the Baltic they were dominant along the Atlantic coast and huge in the Mediterranean too. With only a population of 1.5 million, and they had a lot of industry, they were the proto-industrialized country of that time with a big spending middle class. They were already wealthy in the 15th century but it's no coincidence the inventors of modern capitalism were incredibly rich, they didn't need the crimes in Indonesia for that and that hardly contributed because of the scale. Peak VOC had 140 merchant ships, British estimates of the total Dutch merchant fleet of that era go over 20.000. So unlike the British, the Dutch got their wealth from fair trade in Europe, and the tiny bit they got from the VOC was mostly fair trade too, simply because they mostly weren't in a position to extort. It was about the money and the war, not prestige or power, you can only rob someone once, if you trade fair or unfair you can return for more. Because of that, they let local cultures alone and be ruled by locals, and tried to understand them to keep the money making smooth. Is it a coincidence Indonesia is a 90% muslim country but has freedom of religion? What culture was exactly destroyed by the Dutch? So the importance of the VOC was not economic but cultural. Allthough of course it triggered the first stock exchange, for specific VOC reasons. The VOC didn't want to pay dividend because it needed the money to reinvest and grow, it became a much bigger enterprise than anticipated. Orginally it was meant to buy silk in India and get some spices. So it wanted to pay in goods or not at all and it succeeded. It hardly paid any dividend in it's first 30 years, but it had a lot of ordinary people as shareholders too. Because they were already wealthy and literate but also because it was a national enterprise in the war effort shortly after decisive battles against the Spanish that stabilized the Republic. So not everybody wanted to wait and were glad to be able to sell their stock. But it was just one of the many financial products and services being developped by the Dutch in that era. What the VOC did culturally was opening up the world to the Dutch and make Amsterdam the centre of the world. Nutmeg might have been interesting, but the Persians with their exotic clothes and goods were a lot more fascinating than a shipment of wood from Lithuania too. People would travel with the VOC and document plants, animals, cultures, people all over the East and bring a lot of knowledge and inspiration back. 17th century Dutch Republic was not monoracial, not monoreligious, not segregated and not the ruling kind, far more modern than the rest of Europe. Britain only took over as the economic superpower after the Dutch Republic invaded in 1688 to prevent it from going back to the catholic dark ages and give it it's constitutional monarchy, bill of rights, religious tolerance and modern capitalism. Those we're rough times in which a lot of nasty stuff happened and the Dutch had their crimes too, but it got rich otherwise and everytime you enjoy your freedom of religion, equality, civil rights, womens rights, enlightenment philosophers like Locke, Spinoza and descartes, modern capitalism, realize you probably couldn't have without the Dutch Golden Age and the VOC was part of that, economically an insignificant part, but still an important part.

@caseykilmore

3 жыл бұрын

My favourite part about making videos about aspects of Dutch culture and language truly is going back through the comments and learning from people like you who take the time to fill in the gaps. You really raise some great points and a much more rounded tale. Like I said in my video I feel like I've only scratched the surface this topic is MASSIVE and spreads out into so many different avenues.

@DenUitvreter

3 жыл бұрын

@@caseykilmore I appreciate that. We should not forget that the biggest legacy of the European colonial era is English as the world language and not Dutch, partly for reasons as explained above, and the English speaking world is mostly limited to anglophonic sources. Nontheless another legacy of imperialism is that they feel entitled to tell the whole world's history, the 20th is probably the only century in which historians tried to be objective rather than nationalistic or chauvinistic. The Dutch went from 'the arsehole of Europe' geographically to not only a rival and a threat, but as an extremely rich republic also a threat to the idea of kingdoms and feudalism. So when it comes to the tulip crisis you'll find stories of how it wrecked the Dutch economy, because historians based themselves on contemporary English sources. Of course the English back then had a laugh, those crazy republicans wrecking their economy with this new economic system later to be known as captilism, couldn't go well for very long. It could, the tulip crisis was a tulip crisis and very little more but a lesson in speculation, it had no significant effect on the economy. Some popular anglophonic history will even claim tulips were an important part of the Dutch economy, while they typically a rich men's toy, the expression of extreme wealth gathered with trade, and greed, hence the speculation. I run in things like that a lot on the internet, and I'm afraid the tone of my post wasn't entirely fair to you but the result of an annoyance much older than your channel. Otoh now we have history in the 21st century and that is also moving away from the objective to the judgemental, leaving out facts and nuances for that reason. That's coming from the American part of the anglophonic world and bothers me too simply because it's not fair to history. I don't believe it's right to replace the Dutch Golden Age with the 17th century. Firstly because of Dutch 'gouden eeuw' has to be a 100 yearish period and that didn't magically start and end at round numbers. Together with many historians I'd say it started in the 1580's and ended in the 1670's. It did not start with the VOC nor with the VOC finally starting to pay dividend in 1631. I've always associated 'golden age' primarily with the material riches, and those can't be denied, that it wasn't all peace and happiness was obvious, it's not called the rainbow and unicorns age for a reason. But it was also a great step forward for European civilization and eventueally the world. It was a beacon of light in very dark times, despite it's own dark sides. I don't want to make Dutch history prettier than it is, little chance of me glorifying the bitter shoe gazing former empire of the 19th century with it's pillarization, it's half arsed attempt to 'civilize' Indonesia and very slow with ending the remainder of slavery. But if we get away from the 'They were all evil European racists only getting rich from stealing'-narrative we might actually get to the morally interesting bits. How for example did the WIC evolve from an idealistic very christian (war) enterprise that didn't oppress people and was fanatically opposed to slavery, freed many slaves actually, to the organization that industrialized the slave trade only 5 decades later and even made the Dutch the biggest slavetrader for a short while before the English copied that and took it over too? It's not that ethics aren't a relevant part of history. Anyway, one can't understand Dutch history without the 80-years war, the beginning of the Netherlands as an independent country, the beginning of the nation state in general probably. Who the good guys were and who the bad guys in that seems obvious to me. This war overlaps with the Golden Age for a large part. It's also hard to understand the 17th century without understanding what set the Dutch apart from the rest of Europe, which was quite a bit and mostly for the better.

@corneliusantonius3108

3 жыл бұрын

Don't forget Coen, that was ugley.

They earn it..not steal it

the #voc .... im sure the founding father ...were not fans of this company since they were all small business

The history of ‘Kappalotiya Tamizhan’ V.O.Chidambaram Pillai. kzread.info/dash/bejne/p6uIpshtY7fApqw.html

G E K O L O N I S E E R D

This video didn't contain Dutch colonisation of Indian subcontinent. During 1500-1825- Indian subcontinent was primarily destroyed by Dutch and Mughals. And during the same era, Africa and Indonesia were only into agriculture. Actual wealth- crops, seeds, treasury was stolen from Indian empire. Tell a Dutch that Amsterdam bike streets are constructed from that stolen money- and they will freak out. 😜

You missed out some bits, it was even worse. Like "depopulating" islands because of reasons. (so mass murder for profit) However the gouden eeuw also was not a stand-alone event. It was in the middle of the 100 year's war. We were not just in a trade conflict with Spain (and by inference Portugal) it was also for our liberty. This means that when you had your brand new ship made and filled with provisions and sailors (btw no problem to get staff as sea life provided liberties one would not get when one kept within view of the pastor) and you went out onto the ocean, you may be in luck. Because you may just run into a Spanish ship laden with silver and gold from the west. You would be fresh, they would be tired at the end of their journey. our ships at the time were better, the outcome would be predictable. In such cases you would be back within months with an extra ship in tow and the trip's profit sorted! Good places to visit would be the Batavia Werf in Lelystad (when I was there it showed how a typical VOC trip would go) and also the Palace on the Dam Square in Amsterdam (when I was there it showed all the aspects of support the city of Amsterdam gave to long sea travels, including widows and orphans support). BTW: the VOC ships could not have been built without the extensive trading routes up to to the Baltic states.(de Hanze) At some point, masts came from Poland as there were no suitable trees anymore closer by. Also most of the center of Amsterdam is built on poles bought from the Poles.... BTW2: the VOC was so cheap that they did not innovate their ship designs, which also contributed to their demise. BTW3: also have a look at how the NL-English relationship interfered in all of this. The English took colonies and claimed exclusivity on trade with and between them , which caused problems with the Dutch who wanted a piece of that trade but were not that interested in colonization...

😬 but we rich now🤑

Without this history you had no computer now!

@Jay-jq6bl

2 жыл бұрын

Exactly

The British had colonies and slaves as well. The difference between the english and the dutch is that the english are better with propaganda and public relations, calling their colonial system of extortion "common wealth" and that of the dutch "apartheid"

#companies #corporations shouldnt be #people ... im sure the founding father did not intend the #freespeech for #companies 👆👆👆👆👆👆👆👆👆👆👆👆👆 #citizensunited

A small number of these sailors that did not come back home ended up in Western Australia.

I highley reccomend to take a look at the Dokoe Dokoe channel if you are interested in Dutch history. Great stuff there from Hans Goedkoop with english subtitles.

@caseykilmore

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks, will do! A great aspect of making these videos is finding little recommendations and gems like this in the comments!!

If people would understand that morals change over time , and that we cant really judge our past by our current set of morals , then we could just accept it , with all of its flaws . And I can still be a proud Dutchie knowing that for the time and mindset of the golden age , we were punching way over our weight .

@Jay-jq6bl

2 жыл бұрын

I think it's fair to say that humanity wouldn't be half of what it is without the creation of the publicly traded company. You have every reason to be proud.

Wait...there's a light side to the VOC? 🤔

@EfnysYersina

2 жыл бұрын

_Get rich or die trying_ 50 Cent, American rapper

Such an important video! It's a topic that's not nearly talked about enough IMO

#voc #unfair #trade #practices .... everyone can agree they ahoulsnt have #rights like a #man

How much did they steal ? We can't even count how much did they steal from Indonesia for 350 years.

@onsterfelijke

2 жыл бұрын

not much for the first 200 years it's more the later when they decided to take over everything.

@ashokafulcrum4795

2 жыл бұрын

Not much really.

@obamama3121

2 жыл бұрын

without them there would be no indonesia be thankfull for them uniting it

@musafirnoname

2 жыл бұрын

@@onsterfelijke Yup, but for the first 200 years maybe with just elementary school students count we can make an example like " if they take 1 kg of coffee bean everyday how much they took for 200 years, and that's only coffee bean, so many other commodities like cocoa, herbs, and others.

@musafirnoname

2 жыл бұрын

@@ashokafulcrum4795 You don't know how Indonesian feel and how much they took that time cause you never see it. But yeah, we are Indonesian know our own history. Even my grandma always told us how bad that was in that era. She remember everything even after 100 years.

OUR PRIDE

I know and acknowlegde the colonialism of the Netherlands. In fact, you should look up the other company WIC, West Indische Companie. Started later and a much more bleak history in the slave trade. Having said this, three more items you might look up to further your knowlegde of the bigger picture. The British version, The East India Company, founded in 1600 and still around today, with its own website theeastindiacompany.com. As you mentioned, Portugal, but also Spain were at this policy of conquest and robbing countries of their national treasures, natural wealth and people, a century earlier. (that does not take away what the Dutch did) The Treaty of Zaragossa. A treaty with papal aprovement that Spain and Portugal could split up all the rest of the unknown world as long as spreading Roman Catholism was an integer part of the process. That's how South America came to speak mostly Spanish and the Portugese colonies are found in Africa and Asia. The Netherlands have never shied away from its past. When Indonesia demanded freedom in 1948, the Dutch left, not everyone was thrilled about that. Ever since that time the Netherlands have given money for economic development. That is almost close to 75 yrs now. The Indonesian people still to this day are not happy with the Dutch, even though the King made a formal and public confession and attonement for what had happened. Netherlands seeks cooperation with Indonesia on all fronts, in order to lift this country up in the ranks of developed countries. Lastly I might point out that the Soekarno and Soeharto families, respective political dynasties that had a great influence in the country, turned out to be a bit of embezzlers. Just like any politician in any country. Liked the video immensely.

@RichardRenes

3 жыл бұрын

Nah, when Indonesia demanded freedom, we didn't just leave... The Dutch assumed they could continue as if WW2 hadn't happened, and when local Indonesian militia started to revolt, we sent in our troops to quench that rebellion. We only conceded after immense pressure from the USA to do so.

@ronalddejong3017

3 жыл бұрын

@@RichardRenes Had family there that lost live. Not totally unaware of the situation.

@RealConstructor

3 жыл бұрын

@@RichardRenes Because of this pressure, the Dutch left in a hurry, without organizing it decently. And now Indonesia is suppressing the people Bali, New Guinea and The Moluccas. We didn’t get the time to help these countries be independent, we left it all to Sukarno. So we handled it very wrongly, the US handled it very wrongly and now Indonesia is handling it very wrongly.

@ashokafulcrum4795

2 жыл бұрын

@@RichardRenes most of the Dutch troops were Indonesian natives, who later on immigrated to the Netherlands,... The reason why I point out the nativity of the soldiers, is because, funnily enough, many Indonesians didn't want the Dutch to leave. Especially after the 1870s, the Dutch had quite developeded Indonesia. Schools, railways, mining-projects which offered employment opportunities. Airfields, telephonelines, electricity, waterworks and sewage. The Dutch fully paying for upkeep and expansion of said utilities. A stable currency, decent laws and good protection. This resulted in the believe that Indonesia would be better of under Dutch rule the independence. The reason some Indonesians wanted independence, had more to do with the fact that Indonesians couldn't vote, nor had any democratic system of their own. They faced obstacles going to the Dutch Homeland, and were in some cases barred from certain positions of power. Especially in the Army. This is still bad, but far from the dystopia people want to make from it.

Dispereert niet papa Willie is terug. Liever onethisch dan oneetbaar.

The Darkside of the VOC is something you need to put into perspective of the age they lived in. The Dutch Republic where surrounded by European countries who where fighting each other at every turn. The Republic it self was in the middle of the so called Dutch Revolt (1568-1648) also known as the 80 years war. And the Dutch population was very small compared to other countries. No country in Europe wanted another independent nation at that time. The Golden Age spans from (1588-1672) It was when the Dutch Trade, Science, Art and the Dutch Military were among the best in the world. They achieved this because at that time, after their experience with the Spanish rule they had enough about being told what to do en think. The Dutch had to adapt and again be the pragmatic people they where. They where open to other cultures and accepted their religion and scientific ideas. Where in other countries they where prosecuted and sentenced to dead because of there believes like they where when they where under Spanish rule. So everyone could come to the republic and be accepted and could get citizenship. Socio-economic changes in Europe, the shift in power balance, and less successful financial management resulted in a slow decline of the VOC between 1720 and 1799. After the financially disastrous Fourth Anglo-Dutch War (1780-1784), where the Dutch Republic lost about 50% of all it's ships. The company was nationalised in 1796, and finally dissolved on 31 December 1799. All assets were taken over by the government with VOC territories becoming Dutch government colonies. Throughout the ages for every country and people there where horrific times with up's and down's. The Dutch where no different, they did what they did, to survive and make a living. Right or wrong sad to say, is in the eye of the beholder while looking at it during a certain moment in time. I don't think the Dutch see history as something to feel guilty about, or it's something they need to reconcile with it. Also the Dutch from then, are not the Dutch from now, Let's be honest what is nationality these day's especially with the EU and the way they try to prevent future wars on the European continent. A lot of Europeans on the mainland learned that nationalism is not a good thing, from the rise of the NSDAP) just before starting WW2,. Nationalism is not a good thing and could be twisted into something very negative. Like every person living in the Netherlands today the feeling is more like, it happened, it's history, those where other times, and they where other people. Live and Learn and Move on.

@-_-jayed

3 жыл бұрын

Except for that every dutch white person living inside or outside NL is still benefitting from the wealth taken back then. While all people who back then were on the other side of the VOC and WIC are still on the other side now 🤷

@Jay-jq6bl

2 жыл бұрын

@@-_-jayed everyone has benefited from the exchange. Like the saying goes, a rising tide raises all ships.

the history was completely whitewashed, but recent year there is a lot more attention to all the facts that are available and very slowly the whole story is coming out. I think it is a very important thing for the Dutch to learn and understand. thanks for the video!!

@DenUitvreter

3 жыл бұрын

It was never whitewashed post war, it was glorified in the late 19th century because it got us Indonesia, which was only then being truly colonized to 'civilize' the people and end the cruelty of the local rulers (which was usually helpful for the profits of the Dutch). What helped in that back then was that it was not associated with slavery unlike the WIC. Only recently records have showed up that indicate there was large scale slavery by the Dutch in Indonesia. Slavery was always forbidden in the Netherlands and the WIC only got permission to buy slaves in 1637 (on the condition that they would be set free after 7 years and were taught in christianity in the mean time) after the stern calvinists on the board were sidelined and theologists had came up with a biblical excuse. But VOC always was much more of his own boss than the tightly state controlled WIC. So they sneaked it through, called it different names or simply didn't report. It took two years to get orders from the Netherlands anyway so that gave a lot fo freedom. On the other hand. It most likely wasn't as black and white. These days every non white in those days is automatically a slave and that's not true either. The VOC simply hired a lot of Asians too. I think it's very important for the Dutch not to learn the English version, because that one is certainly wrong. We can read the Dutch sources, we don't have project British history on it and mix in a little 18th century British propaganda.

It is a good thing to also see the dark side to the VOC, it should be taught in schools as well and the critic on the VOC is fine and positive , however I object to the removal of streetnames or statues. Also removing the name Gouden Eeuw is actually rewriting history in the wrong way. Comparing things from the past to the values of today is a form of ‘geschiedsvervalsing’

Peter Fitzsimons wrote a very good book about De Batavia, something you probabbbbbly know about as being Australian yourself, and of course you as being a smart and educated girl, and I have to say oh my word, your Dutch is really scary good, perhaps more Dutch blood in you then you thought 😉 even into the local dialects well well you are more Dutch then all the Moroccan and Turkish people together, who live here for at least 3 generations, good work ! Goed bezig 🤟

Hahaha. B. 1. 0. 0.

When I was in school in the 1960-80s Dutch history was brought with a medium strong sauce of nationalism. The dark side was 'hidden' by just not mentioning it. First as you took interest in the real dealings of the VOC or if you read and understood (in that age) the Max Havelaar some thing might gotten to you. No the Dutch where not nice, and what began as a promising free enterprise soon turned for the worse that mankind produced (note I'm Dutch and proud of it, but not proud of all out history). VOC was in fact the perfect manipulation machine. What the Dutch threw in the faces of European rulers before the 'Plakkaat van Verlatinghe', they did themselves and many times worse. If there had come something good from it this would be bad enough, but it doesn't. All over the world a few people are still ruling by terrorizing other people. Their ways are much more subtle than in the VOC-days, but alas history repeats itself. And the most clever species on this planet proves not to be that clever after all.

@ashokafulcrum4795

Жыл бұрын

The VOC was hardly as bad as people make it seem. Most of the criticism comes from either; Moral relativism (applying a moral compass which wasn't held back then, by nobody!) Myths and politics. History is by default very politicised. Because actions speak louder as words. Hence enemies and rebels would use slander and other forms of propaganda to push their point. Which in due time, turned into legends and myths.

@henkmeerhof8647

Жыл бұрын

​@@ashokafulcrum4795 The VOC not as bad as people want to you to believe? For that we need to ask the people that were 'slaving' their lives away to the greater good of this company. Alas those people are not longer among us.

@ashokafulcrum4795

Жыл бұрын

@@henkmeerhof8647 you must hate every country's history then, if Slavery is the big nono for you.

@ashokafulcrum4795

Жыл бұрын

@@henkmeerhof8647 ben je Nederlands?

@henkmeerhof8647

Жыл бұрын

@@ashokafulcrum4795 Yes/Ja But that would not make much difference in what happened between the years 1602-1800.

A funny thing to know it that aboriginals were considered by Australia part of the flora and fauna up until the 1960's.

We helped other countries. We brought stability. The others brought chaos. The death an destruction. We brought justice and oppertunities.

Commenting in Dutch on purpose. Having seen multiple vids, I think you’re up to this (in fact I think you keep up the appearance... and are already able to speak Nederlands op een goed niveau ,haha). Nou ja weet je, je weet er in ieder geval meer van dan de gemiddelde Nederlander. Goed bezig. Heavy onderwerp, dat wel. Hoe dan ook, het is, in retrospect, een pijnlijke periode uit onze historie. Maar zoals we hier in Noord-Holland gewoon lekker plat zeggen: achteraf kijk je een koe in z’n kont. Mijn persoonlijke mening is dan ook: toentertijd wist de wereld geen drol 💩 van slavernij. Mensenrechten bestonden niet. Mensen waren dom en niet-geïnformeerd. Je had gewoon slaven. Dat gaf status. Dat was je werkkapitaal en kon in gehandeld worden. Elke staat uit de ontwikkelde wereld deed dit. Bedenk ook: we brachten later ook sociaal-economische structuur in onze overzeese gebieden. Denk aan bankwezen, infrastructuur, onderwijs etc. Net zoals toen de Fransen ons bezetten, met Napoleon (die kwam later!). Dat was geen prettige tijd voor ons, maar tegelijkertijd hebben we veel uit vandaag de dag aan deze dude te danken. Afijn, je moet het dus “in de tijdgeest” zien en zeker niet veroordelen tegen de huidige normen en waarden. Toen was alles anders. Vandaag de dag hebben mensen moeite dat te accepteren. Schrale troost: het ligt in ieder geval achter ons. Zoiets als de Duitsers na de Tweede Wereldoorlog zeggen: “wir haben es nicht gewüsst”. (Dat is een veelgezegde Duitse uitspraak in het Nederlands -sarcastisch- en zodoende ook deel van het Nederlands). Ook zoiets uit de Dutch History, WO II. Sorry. Ik dwaal af. Goed gedaan! Dapper dat je zo’n lastig onderwerp aansnijdt. Hope this wasn’t too hard to translate/understand, I bet it was a challenge at least. Keep it up, cheers.

Goed gedaan, Casey. Ik schrijf in het Nederlands, want dat beheers je uitstekend. Wat ik op school leerde was al minder lovend dan wat mensen in de jaren '60 en '70 leerden; maar nog altijd erg trots. Ik heb zelf onderzoek gedaan en heb geleerd hoe lelijk onze geschiedenis is. Eerlijk is eerlijk: andere Europese landen uit die dagen deden het niet beter, maar het is hun zaak dat van zichzelf te zeggen. Ik woon zelf in Jakarta en hier in de oude "kota" (stadscentrum) is de Nederlandse tijd nog zichtbaar. Overigens draagt niemand mij hier de misstanden na van mijn voorouders: men begrijpt hier goed dat mensen nu geen schuld dragen aan at toen gebeurde. Ik vind het dapper van je, zo deze inktzwarte geschiedenis te belichten. Petje af: daar kan menig Nederlander wat van leren!

@ashokafulcrum4795

2 жыл бұрын

Lmao,... Denk je echt dat we zo slecht waren voor de Indonesiërs? Letterlijk Soekarno heeft de Nederlanders nog gecomplimenteerd voor alles dat Nederland heeft gedaan om het op te bouwen. Waar komt dit idee vandaan dat het allemaal slecht was? Als het allemaal zo slecht was, leg mij uit waarom het merendeel van het KNIL inheems was? Leg mij uit waarom veel van de lokale leiders (Desahoofden) zich vrijwillig aansloten bij de Nederlanders? Leg mij uit waarom veel Indonesiërs geen Indonesische onafhankelijkheid wenstte en sommigen zelfs naar Nederland zijn gemigreerd? Zoek eens speeches op van Soekarno. Meer goede woorden over Nederland dan slechte,... Er zijn pijnpunten, natuurlijk. Maar het is verre van de dystopia die hier eventjes op video is gezet

how much? nothing, they owned it, legally.

In the recent past we always focused on the entrepreneurial side of the VOC endeavors. And if all it was would have been was trade, we might have been able to keep that image. However it paved the way for colonial activities and it is fair to say that the ‘trade’ was not on a level playing field at all. I’m happy that (art) historians have a level of consensus about no longer using ‘Gouden Eeuw’ as the term for the VOC era.

Everything. Youre welcome. Greetings a dutchie.

This stupid kind of historical retoric starts wars.

Omg the dutch people in this thread defending VOC 🤣🤣

@DeKempster

2 жыл бұрын

Zeg makker, Jan Pieterszoon Coen heeft niets verkeerd gedaan.

@ashokafulcrum4795

2 жыл бұрын

@@DeKempster zeer gebaseerd

everyone looked for money so im proud to be DUTCH

Well done Casey. Next video: Zwarte Piet :)

@songsnewsmienskipbyarendar9064

3 жыл бұрын

LOL - well VOC doesnt make people very emotional... ZP.... Some years back yes - right now still yes but a lot less. VOC, the politicians in power in FvD glorify it, PVV i guess yes, CDA and VVD only when the camera's are out. The left? Elitarian left hates it yet takes money from modern VOC's anyway, real left knows what it is & what it is, is what I allready said on the right place to do so - yet again - LOL :)

@MacXpert74

3 жыл бұрын

Here you go: kzread.info/dash/bejne/aIGFwbqto9W4m7Q.html&ab

@SuperRaoulinho

3 жыл бұрын

@@MacXpert74 Thanks, good to understand how they justify this tradition .

@MacXpert74

3 жыл бұрын

@@SuperRaoulinho Well, actually the history behind it is not known by most people, which has led to a distortion in the public debate about what this figure is really about.

@onsterfelijke

2 жыл бұрын

Most think that started with a certain teacher but the personage is much older. I think it's from the 800 ad about a bishop and his free bought servant around Mira.

Well to be fair , the dutch never masecared any one becouse of religous or political reasons , they did get a bit well testy when some one cheated them or tried to kill them. for example english traders that didnt uphold their end of the trade restrictions , could be tortured and executed if they survived the ordeal the latter was mostly preferd by the victim, ( the expresion slikken of stikken is refered to that form of torture) Entire islands notably nutmegg where depopulated as they broke a treaty that the dutch would buy every thing they had for x amount not a small amount either to prevent trade with the portuguese. well they didnt keep to the treaty and well no more native population and people that had low employement or income where shiped in and got the lucrative trade deal and no one els atempted to trade underhand with the other powers. Ships like the gouden leeuw and beverwijk got reefed and only 50 survived a few sailed to taiwan in a life boat to get help but the natives of that island masacerd the crew , and in turn the governer general on Taiwan then formosa returned the favour end send voc army and basicly masacerd the entire population bij coraling them in old caves and then using sulpher and fire to smoke them out only 300 survived of which all young males where send to the indonesian islands the rest where sold to the taiwanese in to servirude where the woman where made wives and house maids . The dutch where not verry forgiving against betrayel or beeing atacked.

@forkless

3 жыл бұрын

To be "fair", raping, torturing and killing for monetary reasons was just business du jour, right? You are literally rationalizing atrocities.

First of all. What happened was and is wrong. But I am not sure if stealing is the right word. Try to imagine a ship sailing to South Africa or the Indies. Not an easy task back then. Come to shore in a strange land. And just occupy it? Not really. You need a large army with enough supplies for battle to occupy land. To get a 1000 soldiers to South Africa was a huge undertaking. Maybe defend a piece, but overtaking more than a few kilometers inland is quite something. To build an empire you need people that support the empire. A.Hitler could have screamed what he wanted. If he had nobody behind him, he would just be a screaming idiot. But it became a mess to say the least. J. Ceasar had enough bystanders. N. Bonaparte created many sad face all over Europe. G. Khan was not riding the tundra with his 2 friends from highschool. R. Nixon had enough support to be able to go to Vietnam and stir up the place. Knight-Templars found the need to settle in the middle east. Greed or politics. You need followers. What the Dutch did was infecting locals with their greed. Bad people doing buisiness with the bad people in other countries. Slaves were not just taken from their land. They were sold by their neighbours. Tribes fighting, and selling their P.O.W.'s instead of killing them. Raids in villages to kidnap young woman and men, just to be sold on the docks a few days later. Even on demand. -150 slaves in chains, next week, dock 3, 100 gulden? -Deal!! Farmers killed by locals in the Indies, so they could sell their land to the men from far away. Trying to fight against people in the jungle there with muskets and cannons would be a lost battle. Doing buisiness is a different story. That is a big part of that history. Bad people doing buisiness with bad people. And let's keep the timeframe in mind. Even if most people during the VOC era knew about the VOC, very few knew exactly what it was like. Growing up back then it might have been just as common for teenagers to have an African slave in places, as it is today for them to have a smartphone. Also there is an other side to the story. Traders and explorers opened the world. They made the map. They brought other cultures closer. They were at the start of the change. And let's not forget the most important!!!! They brought the spices for your vegi-kroketten. ;) The only thing we can say about it now is that we all can be happy that things have changed. It happened generations ago. And to feel responsible for it now is crazy. To let it happen again would be more crazy though. I think of it as a moment in time where the most important discovery of mankind was made. And that was mankind itself, in all colours you can find. That was the time that rasism lost ground and started to crack. And as time goes by, we might need somebody that yells into a microphone that he has a dream to refresh our minds. Work in progress, but still moving forward. Movie tips: Hoe duur was de suiker? Amistad.

@caseykilmore

3 жыл бұрын

This is a fantastic point. Like I mentioned in the video I feel like I've only just scratched he surface with a topic like this and am clearly no expert. I didn't grow up with this story and was even taught a very whitewashed version of my own countries history in school. Taking advantage of greed that already existed was a perfect way to frame most atrocities throughout history. The VOC didn't bring these values to these places they used them to their advantage. I'll definitely watch the movie you recommended it seems to be a dividing point within the Dutch culture and just like the medical advancements that were made during the second world war some incredibly things come out of terrible times.

@Andrea-ki9yq

3 жыл бұрын

Two wars were fought here between the Dutch and British and other European settlers as the whole country was occupied not just a few kilometers inland as you put it. Really if you going to have an opinion about the dealings and history of a country you know nothing about at least have an educated opinion.

@jurrione

3 жыл бұрын

@@Andrea-ki9yq VOC started early 1600s. Wars between Europeans were quite some time after that. As far as i know there were between 20.000 and 25.000 VOC people scattered over the planet. At sea or on land. A huge company. The largest the world had ever seen. With about half the employes as soldiers at one point in time. An army took decades to develope. Slavetrade did not happen overnight. Although I am sure that it all started with 1 person that said. "Listen guys, I have an idea. Why don't we.......?". And the rest you know. And in the timeframe it were brave and stout (mostly) men that set sail to the horizon. Not knowing what to expect behind those waves in the distance. Many lost limbs or their life during voyages to far away places where it wouldn't be safe either. Very easy to imagine that slaves on transport must have been terrified on those wooden ships. Chained to the ship, in the dark, hungry, thirsty, feeling sick while they don't understand the words, but they feel the panic of the crew trying to keep the ship from sinking in a vicious tropical storm. I asume you are from South Africa since you wrote "here". So you have other resourses for info too without a doubt. But I do know some stuff about the VOC. And they did not start a warmachine. That is where it ended. And in the matter you cannot skip religion from those days. The church and bible were strong and justified alot of the actions of the VOC. And the Jews did not seem to protest against lost of black peoples lives. I take you know what you are talking about. So you know the subject has many sensitive points. To much to discuss in a youtube comment. But you probably agree that more people were wrong than just the Europeans. I am not trying to put a sugar coating on a sorry. But without native alies supporting the cause for personal gain, the whole thing would have been different. Thanks for reacting.

@Meine.Postma

3 жыл бұрын

@@caseykilmore You also might want to take a look at Max Havelaar or read the book, it was very important in the emancipation of Indonesia in the minds of Dutch people, i.e. making them aware of the atrocities taking place in the Dutch Indies.

@EfnysYersina

2 жыл бұрын

Make trade and take trade

GEKOLONISEERD

@DeKempster

2 жыл бұрын

Zeg makker, Jan Pieterszoon Coen heeft niets verkeerd gedaan.

Looking at any part of history with todays standards is unfair and wrong. In that light almost everything looks bad. I could totally get into this but i will not.