Growing up in the church I followed Moroni's promise throughout my childhood and long into my adult years.. with no result. Finally a singles ward counselor told us to lean on his testimony until we got our own, which I did. Fast forward to leaving after abuse and bad behavior from leaders in my forties, after all that prayer with a sincere heart, we're talking years and years of prayer, never a confirmation that it's true. The church's response? I don't have enough faith.. I think a better explanation is people are making it up and that has a ripple effect.

@juicyjames2074

5 ай бұрын

“You don’t have enough faith” damn I didn’t know this was law of attraction grifter bullshit

@towardcivicliteracy

5 ай бұрын

What evidence did you seek to unveil on that long process of repeatedly praying? A spiritual witness isn't the opposite of you seeking evidence. In fact, several scriptures, along with the testimony of many living prophets, say that we MUST act to learn for ourselves, in many different ways.

I remember saying that I knew it wasn't true, and I was forced to pray about it again until I said that it was true. This May will be 8 years since I resigned. Best decision that I've ever made.

@melorca1962

5 ай бұрын

Sorry to hear that you have to go through sh*t like that.

It's kind of like how to increase your faith in that Santa is real: Instead of doing your own investigation on the matter, pray to God asking if Santa is real. Follow that with a Christmas movie or a children's story about Santa. Then observe the nice warm feelings while watching or reading. Those feelings are God's answer to that Santa is real. Same logic.

@mylesmarkson1686

5 ай бұрын

That makes sense. And now I know what happens to my socks that keep disappearing from my sock-drawer. Those damn sock-gnomes keep taking them in the middle of the night! And God is trying to tell me about them in my nightmares, but I can just never wake up in time!

@Coastal1931

5 ай бұрын

Except Santa isn’t real. Joseph Smith is real, and he produced an amazing book, which has survived nearly 200 years of criticism by folks much smarter than anyone here. I just gave you two facts that are not circular reasoning. Here’s another fact: If you do not understand the power of 200 years of criticism you are a fool not worth listening to. Even if you don’t believe The Book of Mormon is true, it demands respect.

@melorca1962

5 ай бұрын

@@Coastal1931 Actually BoM has some similarities with the Quran, which according to orthodox Islam was "written from the beginning in golden rays on a magnificent tablet in heaven and was communicated to Mohammed by the angel Gabriel". The Quran also promised polygamy in afterlife and has survived even longer than the Book of Mormon. Does that make it also true? Both the Quran and the BoM cannot be true at the same time anyway. But both have survived for same kind of reasons. One of which is that people for generations grow up conditioned that "to just believe" is somehow righteous. The BoM may command respect but it does not deserve any. What deserves respect are the people here who are using their own thinking ability to draw their own conclusions from what they have found out.

@Coastal1931

5 ай бұрын

I’m not qualified to speak to the truth of the Q’ran. My church does not teach faith as a binary choice between two religions. If The Book of Mormon is true, we have something of immense value.

My spiritual witness is that its fanfic.

Right, notice it says to pray with sincere intent, having faith n Christ AND "knowing the truth of it." If you had sincere intent, believed in christ and already know the truth of it, what would be the point in the prayer?

Wait, so I have to start by thinking it's true, then pray to confirm it? Wut. Why pray if I already think it's true?

@benparker8381

4 ай бұрын

The scriptures don’t say that. She added that line in. May have been an innocent misquoting.

I read the book of Mormon when I was around 16/17 and said in young women’s that I had prayed about it and didn’t feel anything… the bishop’s daughter who is a year younger than me said she had the same thing happen to her… now mind you we were both 100% active, bought in, not questioning anything at that time and they told us that we must of already had revelation before we tried reading it and essentially the holy spirit didn’t repeat himself bc we already knew it was true 🤦‍♀️

@Coastal1931

5 ай бұрын

Can I invite you to consider your leaders gave you a correct answer. You might not experience things the same as someone brand new to rhe faith? For you, perhaps God is saying I have aready given you enough experience to make a decision.

I asked God last night which was healthier, chocolate cake, or a salad. I felt a burning in my bosom that told me very strongly CHOCOLATE CAKE! Well… I can’t argue with that! Chocolate cake it was 😂

@melorca1962

5 ай бұрын

Beautiful🙏

He's thinkin - Aw shucks! Can't fool a smart woman. I'm thinkin - no duh! derh!

One of the best channels on yt . Thanks Carah

Nicely done! It is so helpful how you introduce concepts like logics- circular reasoning, fallacies and cognitive bias. When people are heavily indoctrinated they are usually taught to think in circles which keeps them trapped. Deconstructing is hard enough when you have the tools- when you are raised with thought stopping rhetoric; it’s almost impossible. Very easy to fall into other cultish religions or worse. ‘Woo’, which has become a billion dollar a year business! And, it’s growing as people loose faith in organized religion and are searching for how to worship god or what to do with their ‘spirituality’. I fell away from the church, had doubts about Jesus’s divinity for 20 years and still prayed for guidance. Spent several years as a pagan, but didn’t want to fall into another trap of ready belief and began learning all I could. A pagan friend introduced me to religious debate and that opened the door for me. I struggled for years looking into every religion, current and historical. Desperately sure I would find something uncorrupted- until I learned about epistemology and ontology…and apologetic tactics (there’s books on this). Found a love for science, neurology, evolution, biblical scholarship (fascinating learning how the bible came together). Research and learning, knowing how to evaluate claims, recognizing assertions, dodges and manipulations. Truth is what is backed by objective factual evidence and faith is what we use when we do *not* have that truth. Religion puts us in a box and tells us we need the box to keep us safe, that all the answers are in that box. If you make it out the box without the proper tools, you just look for another, nicer box. With proper tools, you realize you don’t need a box at all.

@towardcivicliteracy

5 ай бұрын

"(1) Truth is what is backed by objective factual evidence and (2) faith is what we use when we do not have that truth." These are very interesting claims, but both claims are only partially true. (1) Truth is often not backed by factual evidence. In fact, if that were the case almost all the scientific evidence we use today, in some sense CAUSES the propositions they support to be true. It's very easy to see that this proposition isn't true: Many phenomena were not known to exist, yet existed for thousands or millions of years before they became generally agree-upon fact. Think about the discovery of a new species. (2) Faith, when applied to a God that you believe knows more than you, can often involve things that you do not understand and/or cannot prove; however, the same faith ALSO typically influences you to seek understanding and evidence, whenever God leads you in the direction of a given proposition! This is one of the big reasons that believers in the Book of Mormon, for example, spend so much time comparing what is known about the Bible, biblical literature, Hebrew culture and language, etc., to the Book of Mormon.

@jamiegallier2106

4 ай бұрын

@@towardcivicliteracyObjective facts/evidence is truth whether we understand the mechanisms involved or not. You do not use faith if you have objective evidence or facts.

And today’s affirmation was “I must trust my intuition”.

He also throws around this same idea when ever he talks about listening to leaders. Yes leaders do say to pray to know if it’s true. Well what if some one’s answer is that it’s not? What do you do with that? The Sunday after conference it’s not a discussion of what’s true or not, it’s discussions and the truth of it! There is no room for dissent. So he’s totally bs’ing this idea that member actually pray about what is said by leaders

That didn't happen for me. Early in simenary class I could not accept the basic outline that a god said to kill. I could not accept any part of the Joseph Smith story, it was to grandiose .

Don't forget that if you don't get the "correct" answer then it must be the devil trying to deceive you or your heart's intentions weren't pure 😒

Carah, give me a call. I want to run a couple of ideas by you. Tim

Why you listen to Cardon?

Carah, Moroni's promise isn't written to the readers of the Book of Mormon. It is written only to Moroni's "brethren, the Lamanites" (Moroni 10:1.). To apply it to anyone else besides the Lamanites is taking it out of context. So find me a Lamanite and then lets try it, oh snap.

Moroni 10-4, good buddy!

For the people that love logical fallacies, if you simply assume that Proposition A is true, therefore not Proposition B, you won’t bother to explain how they are mutually exclusive. For example, the “fruits of the Spirit” in Galatians are NOT just feelings, but are observable-at least social scientists can often measure behavior associated with those fruits. Also, studying it out in your mind is actually a pre-requisite to the manifestation of the Holy Ghost-at least to the extent you are able to consider the truth of it, and what evidence is available. This varies across time and people. Yes, we’re relying on a God who knows far more than we do, but he’s a Father who wants us to strive for truth, and learn things for ourselves.

pretty silly, most people that are not atheist believe in some sort of prayer or way of communicating to a higher power. Not a big "pre-supposing" as you say. Funny, you couldn't even read the real text in Moroni -- you had to do some weird paraphrasing.. Apostates follow other apostates, so somehow that is super reliable

@ninaschust3694

5 ай бұрын

I urge you to watch more clips from her. I am sure you will find more ideas of her on the reformed church of Jesus Christ that you don't agree on. Please share your thoughts and ideas in the comment section. ❤

@weatherornot6661

5 ай бұрын

@@ninaschust3694 I have, Same old apostate hating material. Nothing new.

@yvonnelynn7636

5 ай бұрын

@@ninaschust3694 angry apostates are bitter and never change. A lot of them do this to justify themselves because they know deep down it is wrong

@ninaschust3694

5 ай бұрын

@@yvonnelynn7636 whom do you mean apart from nuancehoe? Cults to Conscience? Zelph on the shelf? John Dehlin? Alyssa Grenfeld?

@mylesmarkson1686

5 ай бұрын

Where do you get the idea that apostates follow other apostates? Everyone has to come to their own conclusions on God and religion, and just because people eventually reach the same truth, that doesn't mean that they are all following others. It's pretty obvious that religion is just one big scam.

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts. 4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. 5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things That is the whole text, not your paraphrased interpretation. As far as “presuming a God exits”, yeah, all religion are based on that. You are also presuming a God does not exist.

@PrairieChristianOutreach

5 ай бұрын

I believe Karah’s bigger concern was the circular reasoning and the fallacy of begging the question. I believe she is spot on in her assessment. I don’t see eye to eye with Karah’s overall view of religion, but she has a point here. The Mormon faith has not honestly dealt with the glaring and obvious anachronisms in their holy book. I understand that religion comes with faith, but many other Christian faiths have a more stable foundation.

@Freerangemormon

5 ай бұрын

@@PrairieChristianOutreach can you give an example of that “firmer foundation”? It can’t be Paul’s first vision, right? I mean he never had walked with the Lord, yet proclaimed himself an Apostle and said he had a vision that nobody else saw, of the Lord. He then went on to write 14 books of scripture, sometimes it contradicts Jesus’s own words. There is no “fallacy” involved here in passage, there is however the statement, if you want to know, just ask God. Notice there is no one answer? If no, then this religion is not calling you, if yes then you explore it. You will see that these “anti-religious” people do not even follow their own rhetoric. They think using the term fallacy means they can reject anything they don’t like. Well let’s look at a few interesting examples of fallacies they ignore: Fallacy of composition - assuming that something true of part of a whole must also be true of the whole. False authority (single authority) - using an expert of dubious credentials or using only one opinion to promote a product or idea. Related to the appeal to authority. Feedback fallacy - believing in the objectivity of an evaluation to be used as the basis for improvement without verifying that the source of the evaluation is a disinterested party Intentionality fallacy - the insistence that the ultimate meaning of an expression must be consistent with the intention of the person from whom the communication originated (e.g. a work of fiction that is widely received as a blatant allegory must necessarily not be regarded as such if the author intended it not to be so Kafkatrapping - a sophistical rhetorical device in which any denial by an accused person serves as evidence of guilt Invincible ignorance (argument by pigheadedness) - where a person simply refuses to believe the argument, ignoring any evidence given

@sarahpinho1114

5 ай бұрын

​​​@@Freerangemormonthat doesn't make any sense. If this religion is true then it would call everyone. Moroni is a made-up person and this book has no authority. It just tries to set people up as spiritual failures if they don't get some promised answer.

@PrairieChristianOutreach

5 ай бұрын

@@Freerangemormon I’m sorry, I don’t mean to be crass, but I have seen so many Mormons just leave faith altogether. I believe part that is due to the anachronism taught by the church. The more firm foundation is the philosophical, historical, and archeological basis of the old and New Testament. Yes, there are some amazing stories, but they are set in a real historical setting with actual historical characters. This means something to those of us that refuse to believe without any verifiable evidence. Regarding fallacies, check the two fallacies referenced by Karan. They are absolutely binding to the text referenced.

@melorca1962

5 ай бұрын

@@PrairieChristianOutreach There is also circular reasoning in the belief that Joseph Smith was a prophet. The beliefs on that essentially distills into a "because Joseph said so". Even Jesus at least did miracles and fulfilled prophecies, both of which provided proof that he was the Messiah, instead of claiming that people should "just believe".

You can know someone is not a servant of God when they recieve endless praise, ask for money, and spread false witness against innocent people. You are not a servant of God. Your mouth is vain. Your teachings are false. False!!!