On the theme of medieval people not being stupid, I’ve really enjoyed Tod’s Workshop’s videos where he recreates and tests arms and armor from the past. He gives a lot of credit to them, their ingenuity, and how clever they were in their own time.

@ThePresentPast_

11 ай бұрын

Thanks for sharing :)

@bjzaba

11 ай бұрын

@@ThePresentPast_ No worries! And thanks for the great video too, you opened my eyes to more of the history behind the ‘war’ between science vs. religion… I had some awareness, but I didn’t realise just how much of this stuff was fabricated during the enlightenment.

@theangrycheeto

5 ай бұрын

Also lindybeige

@Wolfwolveswolf

Ай бұрын

they do not allow comments here, even not offensive, nor vulgar, there is no Freedom of Speech, we are controlled, repressed, and tortured with Pain.

Considering that most of the Earth is water and only a small percentage of that water is fizzy, in a way the Earth is flat.

@johnseppethe2nd2

11 ай бұрын

If ocean acidification continues then the earth will be less flat

@yungdkay1008

11 ай бұрын

The earth is both flat and a globe and everyone knows it

@earlpipe9713

11 ай бұрын

Nice. You might wanna consider being a lawyer if you don't have a set career already

@AnaLucia-wy2ii

8 ай бұрын

That took me a good 15 seconds of head scratching to get that. 😂

@garylshelton2463

7 ай бұрын

If 71% of the Earth's surface is indeed water, fizzy, fuzzy, or otherwise, then the earth is obviously flat, because water doesn't lay any other way than flat, and you can't make the globe from the remaining land. It doesn't curve enough for that.

History being misrepresented for some ideological or political purpose is a phenomenon that's been around for a while (even now). This is a pretty decent example of the potential lasting effects it has even after contemporary politics and ideology have moved on to other subjects.

@iivin4233

11 ай бұрын

I like to remember Chesterton's comment about historiography: "Babylon has only heaved half a brick at us, though it be a brick of cuneiform."

@ShaunCheah

11 ай бұрын

Who controls the past controls the future; who controls the present controls the past.

@Mr_Onion_Youtube

7 ай бұрын

i think now the whole "conflict" between science and religion (apart from some exceptions) is focused around morality rather then scientific facts, but yes there is definitely impact to be left on cards of history from situations like this

@Hugo-ox8pk

4 ай бұрын

@@Mr_Onion_KZreadfs most of it is moral based, like is killing one innocent person to save many better than not killing one innocent person and letting the rest die, but it has opens my eyes and i am so surprised to see stuff like this

Jochem, you said you aren't a religious person... Well, I'm a religious person and a historian. And I must say I could not be more excited than I already am with this video. Even though I would change a thing or two (please forgive this historian's caprice!), it's definitely a gem. Also, I must note how impressive it is that historiography has changed to debunk the Conflict Thesis and it's still grappling with many people and mainstream media (maybe because we all love to see a fight, don't we?) Congrats on the excellent video and research!

@ThePresentPast_

11 ай бұрын

Yeah it's just such a powerful and easy to believe idea! Glad I could be of service :)

@joaocraveiro4050

11 ай бұрын

Could I ask what is it that you did not agree with (or would change) in the video?

@leonardocruz6918

11 ай бұрын

​@@joaocraveiro4050 Thanks for your question. I appreciate your interest in discussing the video and your openness to different perspectives - in my case, I’m influenced by Intellectual and Conceptual History (Quentin Skinner and Reinhart Koselleck, if you know what I mean). Before I list the changes I would suggest, I want to clarify that none of these undermine the main arguments of Jochem's video. In fact, these changes could further support his arguments about the Flat Earth myth and the Science vs. Religion myth (referred to as the "Permanent Conflict Thesis" from now on). As someone who has recently started creating History content for social media, I understand the need to make choices due to limitations such as retention and engagement. Please note that the topics mentioned below may deserve their own dedicated video. With that said, let's proceed: 1. The video mentions that the creators of the Permanent Conflict Thesis had personal issues which influenced their writings against religion during their time. It accurately explains how scientific interpretations of the Bible in the 18th and 19th centuries troubled them. However, it would be beneficial to include biographical information on Andrew Dickson White and John William Draper, as both were Protestant individuals who argued that religion and science are inherently in conflict. While it is important to avoid overly psychologizing their work, exploring their backgrounds would provide a deeper understanding of how this myth gained traction due to institutional and social conflicts within modern trends of Christianity. 2. However, when discussing the Permanent Conflict Thesis, it is important to clarify that the existence of this myth relies on modern definitions of "religion" and "science" as separate domains within society, each representing comprehensive belief systems denoted by capital letters ("Religion" and "Science"). This conceptualization emerged as a result of confessional and apologetic texts produced within Protestantism and (or against) Catholicism in the 18th century, as well as the development of modern science as an independent field stemming from natural history and experimental philosophy in the 19th century. Consequently, it can be argued that prior to the 19th century, there was no conflict between "Religion" and "Science" because these terms, as we understand them today, did not exist (note that this does not imply the absence of conflicts between natural philosophy and Christian dogmas; it simply means it was not framed as a faith vs. reason or "Religion vs. Science" conflict). 3. The portrayal of Darwin's influence on the development of the Permanent Conflict Thesis in the video could benefit from a more nuanced perspective. Firstly, the ongoing debate about the existence of underdeveloped or fully formed human beings alongside Adam is not a new discussion, as it has been taking place since ancient Christianity, with figures like Gregory of Nyssa, Origen, and Theophilus of Antioch. Secondly, Darwin's work can be seen as part of Natural Theology, as he initially worked within this field. However, throughout his work, Darwin's conclusions ended up challenging and undermining the paradigm of Natural Theology as a framework for studying nature. The way it is said in the video regards more on how some people reacted to Darwin's ideas ("No way humans came from monkeys! This guy must be against God and the Bible!") rather than emphasizing the paradigm shift brought about by his discoveries, which for me deserved a bit more of attention. 4. The same goes for Galileo’s martyrdom myth: the conclusion is on point, however, it would help a few more sentences on how to situate his ideas relating to his peers and the broader context of the Inquisition’s procedure, since most of these additions, I believe, are more factual information. Anyway, after writing this much, it might seem I have huge complaints. But, as I said, it might be a historian's caprice, the video is great concerning to what it is intended for. And since it's part of the historian's craft, I will list below some sources fundamental to what I wrote: Ronald Numbers (ed.): "Galileo Goes to Jail and Other Myths about Science and Religion" (2010) Peter Harrison: "The Territories of Science and Religion" (2015) David N. Livingstone: "Adam's Ancestors - Race, Religion, and the Politics of Human Origins" (2008) Tiago V. Garros: "Ciência, Bíblia e Teologia - Darwin e o movimento evangélico" (2018) Stephen Gaukroger: "Science and the Shaping of Modernity", 4 vols. (2009-2022)

@VE0003

11 ай бұрын

I'm with @Joao Craveiro - I'm curious to hear your objections

@leonardocruz6918

11 ай бұрын

@@VE0003 , Just check my previous answer

Where are this man's views?? This channel is so underrated, keep up the hard work!

I really enjoyed Jim Al-Khalili's series on Science and Islam in the medieval period when it first came out. I think one of his examples was an early Islamic mathematician called al-Biruni, who calculated the circumference of the earth and got an answer very close to modern estimates.

@Omer1996E.C

11 ай бұрын

This is interesting

C.S. Lewis described our tendency to think the ancients were stupid as "chronological snobbery." He was right on the money.

As a Christian who appreciates history being preserved, I absolutely loved your take on this!

@MaxConsumesDeadHamsters

5 ай бұрын

Yes I am christian too.

@maluslikescoffee3690

Ай бұрын

Same here.

Georges Lemaitre was one of the people who came up with the “big bang”, which he called the primeval atom.

@isoldam

10 ай бұрын

Yes, he was a theoretical physicist and a Catholic priest. The idea of the Church being 'against science' is hilariously ridiculous.

As a Christian and student of history, this idea has always annoyed me. I’ve tried to explain to people that what they were saying was stupid. Who do you think made all the scientific discoveries in Europe then? Anyways, I appreciate your well-explained condensation of the issue. I will say too that the idea that the Christian creation story was intended to be taken literally is a fairly recent idea, at least compared to when it was written. The ancient Hebrews certainly didn’t take it that way, they didn’t do story like us. The point of that story is not to tell the literal creation of the Earth but to explain humans’ relationship to God and their purpose for being here. It is a direct challenge to the other religions that existed in that region, places like Babylon. It says humanity is made in God’s image whereas they say humanity is a slave class for the gods. In any case, even the later conflicts between science and Christianity were caused by those who did not understand the text they were reading. It is perfectly viable to believe in God and evolution. I know you mentioned this with the Catholics accepting evolution at the end but I thought it was necessary anyways.

@kidus_1010

11 ай бұрын

Although it may be possible to believe in God and evolution, I don't believe it's possible to reconcile Genesis with modern ideas and speculation about the origin of life and darwinian speciation unless you really go through serious mental gymnastics and eisigesis. For one, the Bible itself is a historical account which starts from the very beginning. It presents events as happening in a linear order with specific time intervals in between. For example, if you deny that Adam and Eve were really the first humans and ate from the tree in the Garden of Eden, you'd logically have to deny the concept of sin and a fallen world which would then remove the need for Jesus and therefore the entire religion becomes pointless and you can't really claim to be a Christian at that point. It just turns into a whole domino effect. It's not at all a recent idea that the creation story was meant to be taken literally. This doesn't mean every sentence of the Bible is literal obviously, but logically speaking, certain things MUST be taken literally for the rest of it to be coherent. If you look at the Creationist paradigm, it is logically internally consistent and in my opinion more plausible than modern ideas of deep time. Does the creationist paradigm leave some questions unanswered? Sure, just like the evolutionist paradigm does but gaps in knowledge can be filled with the scientific method as a tool.

@westcoastflyers144

11 ай бұрын

@@kidus_1010 I appreciate your response. The thing I disagree with is that I have to believe that Adam and Eve were truly the first humans to believe in sin. Surely I can say that the story is true in all its meaning, just not its literal details. The story tells of the constant Israelite struggle with God. Even in paradise, they will say that they know best. If the story were meant to be taken literally, why do none of the Israelites at any point in the Bible curse Adam or Eve’s name. Why don’t they say, “if only they didn’t eat that fruit, we’d be in paradise.” Adam is only mentioned a few more times in the Bible and Eve is never mentioned again. The idea that the creation story was meant to be taken literally is new, though. We know it’s knew because that’s not how they did story. The questions they had were not how was the Earth literally created, but were why I am here? What is my purpose? Who am I? Who is God? What is our relationship? The sort of scientific analysis of this book today is not at all what it was intended for. There are certainly parts of the Bible to be taken literally, like the Gospels, but the Genesis creation story is not one of them.

@progressivepogona8855

11 ай бұрын

Because I grew up around Christians who argued that genesis is meant to be taken literally and my attempts to discover how it was originally interpreted seem to have mixed results I want to ask if you have any sources where I can read about this topic as I am curious about whether the genesis account for creation was taken literally by early Christians and Jews. In my experience, the sources I found on this issue involve the views of modern scholars with minimal to no references to scholars from the past.

@westcoastflyers144

11 ай бұрын

@@progressivepogona8855 I have read a number of books and articles about this but unless you’re currently a university student you probably won’t have access to them, for free at least. However, a past teacher of mine made a fairly comprehensive 10 part series on this very subject. He actually taught an entire class on Genesis, as well as other biblical classes, which went into much more detail than any video series can. But, if you’re interested, here’s the link to episode one. kzread.info/dash/bejne/kaKl1LyDYZfbgdY.html

@progressivepogona8855

11 ай бұрын

@@westcoastflyers144 Thank you!

As someone who ends up being an Dark Ages apologist. I will be sharing your video constantly

@oleole4340

11 ай бұрын

I mean dark ages objectively was a time of civilizational decline. Was it THAT bad as some people tend to believe? Definitely not

@guitarplayer3k

11 ай бұрын

@@oleole4340 exactly

@johnseppethe2nd2

11 ай бұрын

​@@oleole4340 i see it more of a time of civilisational stagnation. The decline in my opinion happened around the early centuries AD, as Rome fell into disrepair.

@ThePresentPast_

11 ай бұрын

@@johnseppethe2nd2 I think it also very much depends on your perspective. For a lot of people the decline of Roman Empire was positive news. Cities (even far into modern times) were huge death traps. With a life expectancy at birth in the Roman Empire of about 25. Which then greatly improved. But I heard it in a podcast so don't quote me on the exact number.

@duichersie1

11 ай бұрын

⁠doesn’t that also kind of depend on the geographic region you are looking at? I learned in school (maybe that’s wrong too, lol) that most of Central/northern/eastern Europe 500 AD was not nearly at the civilizational level as 1500 AD.

I went to Catholic school for three years and I once asked one of the priests about science and Darwin's theory of evolution and he said to me "The Bible isn't meant to be taken literally."

@scottmoon4721

7 ай бұрын

Did that includes all the miracles that Jesus perform and his bold statement like "Nobody comes to the Father but through me"?

@Albrik_IT

6 ай бұрын

He's right...

@angelahull9064

4 ай бұрын

​@scottmoon4721 it's a hyperbole. Yes, the miracles of Jesus are to be taken, not so much literally, but as true, historical occurrences.

@skullcollector5696

Ай бұрын

He should know, they created the bible. Catholic means universal in Latin. So what is universal, hmmmm, oh yeah, the Sun, and all the solar worship. Every culture had a different name for the sun. In Egypt it was Amun Ra. yes that is where "amen" gets its origin, and "coincidentally "Ra" is the the word "evil" in Hebrew( see Strongs definition and concordance), Why would the sun be evil you might ask? Because the Israelites were slaves and morning "mourning" was when they did the majority of the work. Its all cosmology, sun worship, moon worship (the Israelite religion). That is why they had to turn away from sin, Syn/Sin/Suen is an ancient Mesopotamian name for the moon, Sun-Syn Ying-Yang. Moses with the golden calf was in Taurus the bull, Abraham (AbRAM as he was formerly known) the ram signifies Aries, and Jesus the fisher of men represents Pieces, and when he tells the disciples to find the man carrying water in the house is signifying the coming age of Pieces. The new testament is sun/son worship. Every miracle Jesus/Je suis ( "I Am" in French) did the sun does everyday, appear in the eastern clouds, turns sky/water blue to red, heals sick, causes you to see, walks on water, is dead for 3 days on the southern crux (latin for cross dec 22-25 winter solstice) then rises again till "pass over" of the equator until it hits its northern most point at the summer solstice. So your priest might of been thinking about all of that, or maybe its all just coincidence.

@NelsonZAPTM

26 күн бұрын

Did you consider the miracle of the fishes and the loaves may have just been getting people to share? That would truly be a miracle.

Neil degrase Tyson's brain just short circuited

Great video! Very glad to see you tackling these major historical misconceptions! Important stuff

Absolutely fantastic video, as a history student from the Netherlands I really love your videos, hope you enjoy making them as much as I enjoy watching them ☺

I learned that people didn't think the world was flat in a book I read called "The Mapmaker's Wife." No one thought the world was flat, but there was a debate about it's exact shape (the curvature as you mentioned; apparently some described the Earth as "a fat man with a tight belt around the waist," something to do with how the poles messed with the equipment they used for measurements in that time.) It's a really good read, the first part's about the voyage of scientists from the Academie Royale de Sciences to the Viceroyalty of Peru (modern Ecuador) to take measurements close to the equator (then it moves on to a wife that gets lost in the Amazon and another part about La Condamine's journey through the Amazon.) I highly recommend this book. If I ever made my own video, this would be one of my first ideas.

Fantastic video! Incredibly informative and well crafted. Never stop doing what you do!

@ThePresentPast_

11 ай бұрын

I'll try a bit more :)

To talk a bit more about Galileo, his work was originally suppressed by the Church - I've heard it said that it was so they could harmonize interpretation of scripture with observable fact, but that may just be apologism - but the hammer of persecution only really came down when he published a book that painted the Church's view as utterly moronic and something only a dunderhead would believe. Great video.

@spoddie

11 ай бұрын

All Heliocentric books were banned as heresy, including those by Copernicus, Kepler and Galileo until 1820 because they contradicted the Holy Scriptures.

@angelahull9064

4 ай бұрын

Politics also had a hand on the matter more than theology. Taking a dig at a nepo-baby, Medici-backed Pope, in the Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, did not do Galileo any favors. But he wasn't persecuted. He lived into old age under house arrest, continuing his work debunking Aristotlian physics until he went blind.

@lordadmira3

4 ай бұрын

His primary offence was saying that the Church had interpreted the Bible wrong and they had to conform to his new interpretation. Once he insulted the Pope, it was the last straw. The Church has the absolute authority to interpret the Bible and you can't just stride into Rome and tell them what to do. The funniest part is that he couldn't prove his theory and his main hypothesis was wrong. After Kepler came along and could actually prove it, everybody accepted it easily.

@dinoseen3226

3 ай бұрын

(he was right)

@ten_tego_teges

3 ай бұрын

@@lordadmira3 Yup, and without gravity explaining why the solar system even holds together the theory raised more questions than it solved. The prior view was that there is some special property that makes object falls to Earth's centre, around which the world is ordered. While flimsy on modern scientific standards, it was at least philosophically neat, sth heliocentricism lacked.

17:25 that hits the nail on the head imo. I feel like a lot of people want to view the past as this unenlightened, dark and cruel time as to make them feel better about their knowledge and intelligence today. People were not dumb in the Middle Ages, they simply didn’t have the same education, accessibility to knowledge and global awareness that we do nowadays. I even think that we nowadays are more or less the same when it comes to our capacity of thinking and learning. People in the past were much more knowledgeable when it comes to things like agriculture, foraging for food and creating most of the things you need to survive for themselves (eg clothes, household goods etc). In a way we have changed the knowledge which was vital for survival then for knowledge that is not of essential use as we are not reliant on this knowledge for our survival and grow up very sheltered from the environment.

It always seems to go back to the Victorians with historical misinformation! This was a terrific lesson as well as showcase of how history is always repeating itself.

@Jo_876

11 ай бұрын

Part of me wonders if the Victorians were not trying to cover for themselves in some way. Christianity has, through the Catholic church, opposed things like slavery and imperialism at times (and of course at other times either accepted it or encouraged it). I wonder if the Victorian era push to see religion as backward was not in part influenced by their desire to cast the church as a relic that need not be heeded?

@ab-fi6ks

8 ай бұрын

​@@Jo_876It also has to do with the fact that the British abhorred the Catholic Church until these days.

@Fakeslimshady

5 ай бұрын

And the Napoleons too, if you watched the video

Thank you for this, excellent. Humans of Antiquity and the Medieval era were really just as smart as we are today. They just didn't have the tools that we do, modern scientific instrumentation and notation, the massive libraries of knowledge right at our fingertips, etc. We have those things, and yet still look at us. We'd better not start casting stones or this glass house is going to come down on our heads.

Thank you for this video. There are so many "enlightened" people who refuse to acknowledge that religion and science were once tied together.

3:32 Uh... there absolutely was (and there still is) a University of Salamanca. It was the most prestigious university in Spain at the time of Columbus

Thanks for the shout out!

@ThePresentPast_

11 ай бұрын

Thanks for teaching me AE!

Leaving a comment for the algorithm, such a good video!

great video, I just discovered your channel and it seems your videos are another way on looking at history (the more truthful way) compared to the majority of history channels on KZread, thanks for exposing the lies taught to us in school.

As a scientist and Christian I thank you for this well explained video. Will refer people to it whenever this discussion arises (which is quite often).

0:45 wow that is crazy. Just hours ago I was just struggling with this same myth, it is hard to correctly put into perspective the impact The Church had on Science. Especially being how modern focus seems to be on the times it got things wrong, despite how it was pretty much the sole driver of Science in the West. Maybe I should send them this video now instead lol

Hi! Great video, big fan. I noticed a few inaccuracies in your captions that differed from what you said, just wanted to point them out.

Hartelijk dank gozert

Enjoying your videos/channel , really interesting stuff. Subscribed 👍

Just found your channel. Great job on these videos. Cant wait to binge watch them!

Great video!!!

Amazing video!

sometimes a conspiracy theory is really enterntaining, i would like to recomend a show from terra called "inside job" its really worth to watch ( sorry for bad english i am from mars )

@0maeWaMou

11 ай бұрын

As a citizen of planet Earth, i forgive you for your bad english.

@alemdevp2048

11 ай бұрын

How's the weather doing over there

@Akromee

11 ай бұрын

@@alemdevp2048 raining rocks as always

@luisgrobler2716

11 ай бұрын

That’s though

@0nshore

11 ай бұрын

I too am from mars, though I am currently on vacation on mercury. It’s really hot and impossible to breathe here, but the rocky landscape is worth it! 😊

it always infuriates me when people talk about to stupidty of people in history we are not smarter, we only have more knowledge

@jordank3138

9 күн бұрын

controlled opposition

This came up in a philosophy class that I took recently. The quality of information and it's presentation here are fantastic. Subbed!

Gallileo may not have had much influence on the devellopment of heliocentrism, but he had a enormous influence on the devellopment of the telescope and the scientific method.

I am so glad this video was made! I hate that people still think this. It's what I was even taught in school before I learned it was false The worst consequence of this is how Colombus is praised for thinking the earth was round when everyone else thought it was flat, when instead columbus was just a guy with faulty calculations who was convinced he was right to the point where he risked his and his crew's lives

@feralcookie3005

11 ай бұрын

Yess! If he hadn't found another continent on the way, they wouldn't have made it even half way to the destination!! He was way off by like 70-80%

@annaairahala9462

8 ай бұрын

@@thotslayer9914 Depends, what for?

Great story choice bro. I’ve never seen a video on this topic and it’s very refreshing to see .

This is a very good video! I have found the idea of an eternal conflict between science and religion unconvincing for a while now and this video condenses some of my thoughts very nicely while also adding things I hadn't even considered before. Keep up the good work!

People like Washington Irwing are the reason Leopold von Ranke didn't exactly like writers and artists.

It’s kind of absurd how many modern misconceptions can be traced back to some novel(s) written in the 1800s

On medieval artworks of Christ He sometimes holds a globe in His hand

I can’t remember if it was Irving or Hawthorne, who made the myth of Paul Revere. It’s creepy how many fictional, historical books, are still believed as fact. Like John Smith writing about Pocahontas.

I'm of Indian descent on my father's side and India and China knew the world was round over 2,000 years ago. Pythagoras stole a lot of knowledge from India. Mathematics in particular.

Echt mooi gemaakt hoor deze videos. Prachtige editing.

Yes, the good stuff is back!!

Can't wait to see the flood gates to flat earther warriors open in the comments section Love these debunking videos

Even if you're talking about the modern context, the religion vs science conflict is blown way out of proportion because for some reason evolution is all of science and to reject that part is to reject the whole and stop all human progress lol. Also this has to be one of the best channels on KZread right here.

@earlpipe9713

11 ай бұрын

Yes, and some people's devotion to 100% faith in the theory of evolution is basically religious zealotry, with even jihadist elements with how militant they got against creationism

I am not a historian, but an history enthusiast. But as Roman Catholic it infuriates me the amount of myths around Catholic Church, usually spread by Protestants and Atheists around 18th-19th centuries in smear campaign that just stuck. Don't get me wrong, there are many things that Catholic Church should be criticized for, especially lacklustre fight with sexual abuse, era of saeculum obscurum (904-964), corruption of late 15th and early 16th century, wobbly position on slavery (even though in the long term Catholic Church was crucial in limiting scope of slavery), Avignon Papacy, abuses of indulgences, and would spend whole day trying to name them all. But if you ask somebody to name something bad from Catholic history you would likely hear something like: - being anti-science - total BS, Catholic Church was the most pro-science institution in human history, during the Middle Ages almost all of achievement in European science where thanks to Catholic Church, - trials of Galileo Galilei - had nothing to do with his science achievements, but insulting the Pope (who gave Galileo the job, shielded him from other clerics and payed him for scientific work) and publishing his works (in which he insulted aforementioned pope) even though he was ask to not to do it until it will be validated that his theories are true; punishment? home arrest, order to pray more and lifetime pension from Catholic Church; Galileo affair was mostly a PR disaster on Catholic Church side - burning people o stakes - it happened sometimes, but it was quite rare in Catholic Church, compering especially to some Protestant branches, - witch trials - almost non-existent in Catholic Church, once again popular pastime among Protestants, - Holy Inquisition - if anything, you could expect the Spanish Inquisition, because they gave a 30 day notice; great achievement in judiciary, restricted torture and gave people right to counsel; if you could choose to be judge by secular court or by Holy Inquisition you would beg to be judged by Holy Inquisition, because in secular court there were usually to option: you admit to committing the crime or you would be tortured to death; also Holy Inquisition did not have to execute any punishment, they could only recommend a verdict to be done by secular authorities; and you would have to really try to get a death sentence from Holy Inquisition; people who actually died due to Inquisition sentence? between 3,000 and 10,000 during the span of 250 years worldwide (on average 12-40 people yearly worldwide); - Crusades to Holy Land: yes, there where a lot of madman taking part in them by they where not endorsed by the Church, but they started as defensive necessity not some kind early form of colonization, of course some Crusades had tragic consequences (ekhm, 4th Crusade), not because they where plan this way, but because local rulers started to exploit them for more power (ekhm, Venice), not because Church planned to wreak havoc

Even today, there is no real conflict... read Alvin Plantinga's "where the conflict really lies". It has always been a philosophical issue: naturalistic materialism with all the views that say there is more that matters than matter.

Thank you for making this video. As a medievalist this is a myth I all too often stumble across it and have to debunk.

12:03 You pronounce circumference differently I am Dutch too, it is a weird word haha

So sad to see your video beeing shadow banned by youtube just because flat earth is still such a controversial theme in 2023 :/

Wowo, amazing video! I'd love to see a similar one talking about gender roles, and how Victorian times really solidified how we understand gender today.

We're not smarter than medieval people, but we have more giants whose shoulders we can stand on, including medieval ones.

As a fellow Catholic and a history enjoyer, I must say this video was really helpful and educational, and I am so glad more and more people are learning about the misconceptions people had regarding the Catholic Church, Galileo, and the "Dark Ages."

Well, there was a School of Salamanca as a place of learning since 1218 and later developed into a proper university by the time Ferdinand II of Aragon came to power, so maybe Columbus did hop on over there for help in calculating the journey with mathematicians. But the School of Salamanca was very much in support of Columbus. The hard part was convincing sponsors to help fund the voyage. Sailing somewhat blindly without certainty of how long it would take to get to East or South Asia and how much supplies and food would be needed is not exactly going to make rich people feel very confident on making a profit off of you. The School/University of Salamanca was the premier center of developing laws concerning the rights of Indeginous peoples, insisting that no person is born a slave and that no persecution is to befall on them. But kings want empires and conquistadors want money. So these advances towards human rights fell on deaf ears.

There is actually a documentary on Curiosity called Deep Time History and in a short scene when talking about how ore deposits and spices drove human immigration when they touch upon Columbus and his famous voyage to the Americas they mention the whole medieval people for the most part did already know the Earth was a sphere, though it would not have been uncommon to run into people that didn't know it was a sphere in strange positions of power depending on their formal education, but the majority of people with even basic formal educations would know and have been taught about a spherical Earth. The scene is actually kind of hilarious because the actor being Columbus slowly draws a circle in the air, then the actor that is supposed to be the sponsor he was pitching to draws the circle in the air back, and the actor playing Columbus nods in confirmation but looks REALLY annoyed with the potential patron.

The Church's beef with Galileo has nothing to do with the astronomical model but with the philosophical implications of Earth not being in the center.

Caught this on Nebula. Very interesting. I'm in my 40's and grew up in the era before the internet (the web) and lots of people thought Columbus proved the world was wrong in a time when most believed it was flat. I believe even some of my teachers said that while others were clear that the people knew it was round but didn't know how big the earth was. I don't know why they continued that fallacy. But it it did seem like during the 90's and certainly 2000's, the truth became more well known. Why in 2023 or recent years people still think that 1400's Europeans thought the world was flat is surprising.

@brianmathews2926

11 ай бұрын

Misinformation is more easily spread. It is free to anonymously spread information without consequence or verification. It is easy to generate an audience and build echo chambers when you can curate a community who only agree with you. Information no longer has to pass through trusted mainstream channels. And every idiot is given the same platform to champion their ideas, in a society built so that narcissistic boors tend to command the most attention and respect. It is no surprise that we are moving backwards in terms of general knowledge.

It is disappointing that even Europeans believe Irving's foolish lie. For some reason they do not realize it is the Middle Ages that gave birth to the time of Renaissance.

Great video, but with that title and letter font I ignored it myself, loved every second once I tuned it, it’s a shame you get robbed on views

This is a work of art, how have you only got 24k views!!???

"Because of the stupid." Thank you for proving a point sir.

Die animatie in hoofdstuk 1 dat het boekje op tafel open slaat. Kwijlen.

What is that picture at 5:26 supposed to be?

The need to believe that oneself as an individual is 'important' and preferably 'superior' has to do with the human style of competitive breeding strategies coupled with the need to avoid thinking about our own mortality (if we do we often become very upset, psychology calls that an 'existential crisis'). We also have to cooperate so that 'importance' and 'superiority' is also assigned to the group we belong to. These assumptions often jar with reality, hence the development of 'absurdist philosophy' (which is built on a foundation of stoicism, non of this is new but absudists have written better comedy songs IMHO). The sad thing is that, in order to support and maintain our rather necessary delusional paranoia we often harm others even though that contravenes the dictats of all the religious founders that I am aware of (but needs must when the devil drives, as they say).

i love this video

@ThePresentPast_

11 ай бұрын

thanks!

Thank you for this video! Finally someone who did decent research on the middle so-called “dark” ages and the Catholic Church in that time.

So was Galileo imprisoned or is that a misrepresentation?

like my dad said "even if they believed the earth was flat, sailors still seen the stars moving from top to bottom"

A good video that debunks the notion of religion being totally opposed to science. These days it seems to be some Christen fundamentalists (mainly based in the USA), who are opposed to science and especially evolution, and some dogmatic scientists who believe all religious believers are totally stupid. I think that St Thomas Aquinas, said that if there is dispute between your faith and what reason tells you, you should follow your reason. On the flat earth idea, it is interesting that an idea, that was debunked and not generally accepted for 2000 years, seems to be making a comeback. A Flat Earth society has existed since the 1800's but was always a fringe belief, but with the development of the internet, and things such as KZread, their message can now be sent out to a world-wide audience, some of whom come to believe it. A triumph of wilful ignorance over reason.

Sorry, is it Gdansk, at the start of video? very familiar location

Excellent, Mr. Present Past! Thanks for mentioning the great St. Augustine - from Yemen, if I'm not mistaken, btw. Check the concept of the two books from Augustine.

This was fantastic. I'd watch an entire KZread channel just diving deeper into what's covered in this video

Great video as always. The youtuber Knowing Better also has a great video debunking many people’s perceptions of Christopher Columbus (explaining that he knew the Earth wasn’t flat etc.). KB also has a great video above the Titanic and how James Cameron lied about various facts which have mislead many people since 1997, e.g. the Titanic didn’t have enough lifeboats because the Deck would look “Too cluttered”…..

@ThePresentPast_

11 ай бұрын

Nice, havent seen those videos!

I would love a video that explored more of how Christianity and science interacted thru the last 2000 years. Here you explored how our current assumption came to be, and that they are shaky at best, but I have no clue what to replace the assumptions with. For example, after explaining where our misconception of a belief in a flat earth came from, and stating that they are false you don't explain what's true. We just have to take your word that there wasn't any truth in what they wrote, gave me a bit Johnny Harris vibes. I would assume that it's both true that Christianity supported and limited science. Based on the rate of inovation it seems like more of the latter, but i do not know. Would you explore this more in another video or are you finished with this topic for now?

@motionpictures6629

11 ай бұрын

Read Thomas Aquinas and his teacher Albertus Magnus. Albertus Magnus is called the father of chemistry for noting that cooling things slows processes down and heating things makes processes faster. Aquinas was famous for quoting the bible : "Good designed the earth according to measures and weights". Aquinas argued that measuring and weighting the earth would help humans to understand god. Both lived around 1200 A.D. and are the fathers of "church science".

I really loved your video especially this one. I knew that the catholic Church far from being against science actualy was the very cradel of modern scientific revolution. She was the mother who set up the the environment in the home that would then enable the launching of the modern scientific revolution but setting up various unversities including som eof the oldest in Europe (possbly even the world) such as in Bologna, Paris etc. etc. Above all Catholic Church always respected bothe "Faith" i.e. devinely revealed religious Truths as well as Reason which God has given to human beings to infer about the universe through observations and rations deductions. I am glad you exposed this pernicious myth and lie about the supposed "conflict" between Catholic Religion and Science!!!

The Present Past, thank you for shedding the truth. As a Catholic, I oftend receive disdain that my Church is an obstacle of science and I tried to debunk it. Now this video is a good piece of evidence to my claims. Thank you.

The thought that Columbus thought the world was flat can be debunked with the most basic of common sense. To get to the silk road, ships would travel East. Columbus wanted to go West predicting that not having to go around Africa would be a faster route. If he thought the world was flat, this would be impossible as there would be only one direction by which to reach the Indian sub-continent.

This Irving guy is also the reason the NBA team from New York is called the Knicks and the reason they wear orange white and blue.

The hell do you mean there is no University of Salamanca? There absolutely is, it was founded in 1218 and still runs today. Very strange mistake to make

Very nice video, thank you very much. But in a tiny point I object. In minute 11 you reproduce another myth: That evolution/darwinism is "organism reacting to competition in their environment". Survival of the fittest is not survival of the strongest or most successful in competition. To be fit means to fit in, to match an environment. Fitness CAN mean being the stronger in a competition but in ecosystems we observe a lot of non competetive behavior like in symbiosis, flocks, herds, swarms etc. Interpreting "survival of the fittest" in a competitive, "survival of the strongest" way is a myth that proponents of social darwinism use to justify their worldview a "natural".

Bravo ❤🙏👏 well said. I love learning from your channel because I know how unbiased you are in your research.

@ThePresentPast_

11 ай бұрын

Appreciate it, although I too have my known and unknown biases.

@lara___3524

11 ай бұрын

I have seen a you tube high quality documentary where Christian geologist argue and try to prove that the earth was created 4004 BC. I am also surprised that nobody makes this connection between flat earth idea and the Vedas.

I thought that this video is what we always need. Thanks for making this video.

The Greeks knew the earth was round . That’s the only way they could calculate the diameter of the earth so correctly .

I appreciate that the Alex Jones clip you chose was him spitting facts.

So are we actually improving in terms of that last history graph

Quora would explode if anyone posted this video there

@annaairahala9462

11 ай бұрын

Do people on Quora still believe people during Columbus' time thought the world was flat?

I mean imagine if people in 26th century thinks we believe the Earth was flat for the exactly same reasons... ...plus Flat Earth Society.

How do creationists imagine God created the Earth? If not evolution for the species and physical relationships for them and everything else, what more amazing process do they imagine He used?

@juanranger4214

11 ай бұрын

Genetics. What we see in genetics on what happens in DNA after a couple reproduces is a loss of information in each offspring. Therefore, it is impossible that a simple cell with a “simple” (still ridiculously complex) genetic code, produce an more complex offspring through natural selection. What we see is INvolution, which means our ancestors had better genetics than we had and so did the animals. With this, the story of creation in genesis starts making a lot more sense.

@mmmmmmmmmmmmfood

9 ай бұрын

​@@juanranger4214 You have absolutely zero idea what you're talking about

For anyone who watched the coronation on May 6th you would've noticed he was given an orb the technical term for this is an Orbis Cruciger and it is meant to symbolise Christ over the Earth and were used as far back as the Eighth Century during the coronation of Charlemagne so this pretty much proves people in medieval Europe knew the Earth was round.

📍14:54

1:51 Based.

I thought the Polish monk Copernicus proved the earth was round before Christopher Columbus got underway.

In the Bible it does imply and hint a round earth, heck it even mentions the explanation of the universe in Psalms when it reads that God spreads spreads out the heavens like a curtain. It's pretty cool stuff!

As a Christian with a deep respect for science, I’ve long felt that this is a VERY damaging lie/myth. And unfortunately it’s become somewhat of a self-fulfilling prophecy: the more people believe it, the more the wedge of distrust grows. Saying that a person of faith can’t also be a great scientist is as nonsensical as saying that someone who loves art can’t do math.

@jordank3138

9 күн бұрын

not true at all.

Eratosthenes: "Am I a joke to you?"