"Be nice, be forgiving, but don't be a pushover" I feel like that's something all of us can appreciate.

@-_Nuke_-

4 ай бұрын

The nasty implications of this though, is that you might end up having 2 players that neither of them wanting to be nasty, but they end up being nasty because they don't know each other... If they did, they would trust each other much more. And i believe that friendship is born right on that sweet spot when 2 or more "players" realize that instead of tic or tat, if I just trust that the other player is just as good hearted as I am, then maybe we are not 2 scumbags that retaliate with every opportunity, but instead trust that the other player is just like us, caught in this prisoner's dilemma situation... I believe that the eye for an eye strategy of the tick for tat algorithm that kept winning everything, is a very bad life lesson for someone. Turning the other cheek that was born with Christianity and other religions, is a testament to how much better it performed over thousands of years. I might be an atheist, but I still acknowledge the good lessons that religions teach to people. So I hope that people that watch this video actually understand that you SHOULDN'T be using these algorithms as a way of life for your life, no computer algorithm can simulate the near infinite complexity of a single Human life. Turn the other cheek. You might very well be playing a copy of yourself, someone who wants to be nice but he / she might just be afraid just as much as you. @Veritasium - this statement above should have been in your video.

@philkthomas

4 ай бұрын

I'm curious how much the philosophy would shift if the scoring system was adjusted. The current system does seem to reward cooperation as having higher utility than defecting as 3+3 > 5+0. But what if the temptation was 6 points or even 7 points instead of just 5?

@NB-lx6gz

4 ай бұрын

What does push over mean?

@WiseWombat

4 ай бұрын

Also 'be consistent'

@jamesryan7684

4 ай бұрын

just like NATO.

Two people getting excited to meet each other because they both respect the others work is the most wholesome thing

@whippoorwillvt

12 күн бұрын

Yeah. The excitable giddiness pops out.

@meganm1074

11 күн бұрын

A little island of cooperators spreading out!

“You don’t have to lose in order for me to win”. Enlightenment

I believe that humanity has gotten where it has through cooperation, not aggression. How delightful to discover that there is a theory that confirms this!

@gking407

13 күн бұрын

Exactly! Humans with no natural defenses except greater intellect were forced to cooperate in order to survive. Now I fear we’ve become so dumb that we as a species believe we no longer need each other :(

@tanaminogarashi

12 күн бұрын

both cooperation and aggression. warring tribes, the rise and fall of empires and civilizations, have occurred since the dawn of time. without europeans colonizing the usa and basically committing genocide on the native population, would we ever have the industrial revolution that provided us the comforts of the modern era? it's all a paradox

@seanjankowski9016

11 күн бұрын

It’s simplistic to say game theory confirms that cooperation is better than “aggression” because it doesn’t. What it really proves is *self interest* is always the best option, and that may take the form of cooperation, but often it does not. In fact, doing simulations of game in graduate school more often than not showed cooperation as a strategy only worked in the short term. Long term or endless games proved cooperation to be the least successful strategy, and those games where strategy changes showed it was only beneficial at the start of the game. Of course this is still theory and you won’t have a hard time at all finding articles one way or the other. It also depends on what the “game” is

@thefloop2813

10 күн бұрын

hate to knit pick, but theories don't actually confirm or prove anything. Technically that's the whole reason they're called theories. Really that's a fundamental principle of science, so maybe not so knit picky after all.

@AcademicMonkey

8 күн бұрын

These replies are all on point. Life is very much a perpetual paradox; thats always the catch. Even quantum mechanics is stuck in this circle

“In the short term it is often the environment that shapes the player… but in the long run it is the players that shape the environment.” Words to live by.

@Paddythelaad

3 ай бұрын

If free will exists, maybe

@meleardil

3 ай бұрын

@Veritaserum, please make a followup video with ASYMMETRIC strategies, sexual dimorphism as an EXAMPLE

@Kevin_Street

3 ай бұрын

It's wisdom, not just knowledge. This is the kind of information that benefits the person who understands it.

@fffUUUUUU

3 ай бұрын

LOL as if russians were ever rational. They hate West despite using its technologies and life improvement things. Is that rational? Ask yourself. Then watch russian TV and all yourself again.

@fffUUUUUU

3 ай бұрын

So he continues to dissolve brains of the Western society. It's the second time I hear from him the narrative "give up to russia and China, they are dreadful!". How much do he cost in rubles?

I just love how enthusiastic Professor Strogatz was on seeing Professor Axelrod, like they were two good buddies

@Crushnaut

4 ай бұрын

If you have dipped into game theory at all, meeting Axelrod would be thrilling. I think the only person that would be more exciting to meet would be John Nash, but he unfortunately passed away in 2015 and suffered from mental illness most of his life.

@leonig01

4 ай бұрын

I guess it is like meeting the top1 player in your favorite sport.

@Crushnaut

4 ай бұрын

@@leonig01 not just the top player currently, but a top all time player. Would be like meeting Gretzky, Babe Ruth, etc.

@Kenny-yl9pc

4 ай бұрын

Who is Gretzky and Babe Ruth?@@Crushnaut

@Crushnaut

4 ай бұрын

@@Kenny-yl9pc unless you wrote you comment on paper and mailed it to KZread, I think you can answer that question yourself.

This is refreshing. I just started reading Greene’s “48 Laws of Power” in order to understand how bullying parties win in negotiations - not because I want to do that, but because I’ve been on the receiving end of it and I want to better defend against at it. This mathematically proves that starting off cooperative, stating clearly your boundaries once they’ve been crossed, and willingness to cooperate again is the best way to go. That’s the way I try to live and want to live. This is helpful reinforcement of that. Thank you.

@seanjankowski9016

11 күн бұрын

Just bear in mind that this is only relevant to two player games. N-player games are infinitely more complicated and the game theory math is different. Negotiating often isn’t just between two “players” but multiple.

@tor4472

10 күн бұрын

​@@seanjankowski9016 Do you have any examples of videos that dive into that subject deeper?

@seductivegopnik2580

10 күн бұрын

​@@seanjankowski9016 I think that's why during the Cold War they divided it into West vs East, and those mutable concepts/groupings have pervailed till today. In globalization and progress towards unity, there will have to be negotiations and compromises, of which every every party that is concerned about not being dominated will likely be conservative towards progress. We've learnt how to deal with I vs Us through evolution (except for psychopaths and narcissists) but we're still learning how to deal with Us vs. Them. If there is just two prevailing identities that become salient through priming, then it becomes much easier to do Us vs Them, rather than Us vs Them vs Them vs Them vs etc... First it'll be West vs East, or Communism vs Liberalism, then it may become Empaths (2% of humans) vs Psychopaths (also 2%). What's considered "functional", or "pragmatic", will either move left or right (probably left). If we were to be more conscious, or even subconscious, of the existential race between empathy and psychopathy (universe-oriented interest vs self-interest), then we will have an easier time dealing with these two main ideologies that are competing on Earth. It used to be the environment, geography/ecology, that determined the evolution of humankind, but now it's becoming civilization, society and culture, that will determine the humankind's humanity and kindness, both genetically and memetically, 1 million years down the road, 1 billion years down the road... If we keep trying to move forward with what's Good for the Universe, then eventually we'll evolve towards "God". Both Objective Good/Evil and God/Devil are very ineffible, incomprehensible abstract concepts to the individual, but the objective of life does not have to be selfish-survival. Maybe life isn't "supposed" to be a game at all, like how the cells in your body are not in a "game" with each other. It's cooperation towards something bigger than ourselves. That's why it's important to foster security. If you yourself feels secure, then you're less likely to adhere to a group identity to feel better off. Progressives are easier to negotiate a global culture, but eventually, even the most conservative of any "competitor", whether it be Japanese conservatives, Middle Eastern conservatives, American conervatives, African conservatives, etc... will find existential peace in this globalizing era.

@agapitoliria

10 күн бұрын

Be aware though that this theory assumes equals and doesn't take into account power dynamics that are present in bullying. The victim can't tit for tat if it can't retaliate (defect) and is forced to constantly submit (cooperate).

@gandoff7840

10 күн бұрын

Along with the points others have made, you have to consider that "deception" was not included in the game. The results "cooperation" and "defection" were considered fact and understood clearly. However, in the real world, there are many instances where it is not clear if a person or thing is cooperating or defecting. Thus, leaving the status of the relationship is unclear.

This video is a literal hidden gem. May the future generation be reminded by this masterpiece hopefully

@Stierenkloot

8 сағат бұрын

You’re literally just trying to get attention by posting a comment similar to the video thumbnail

I think every parent should watch this. "Be nice, be forgiving, but not a pushover" is quite literally what I want my kids to grow up understanding. What a cool video

@jansond3917

15 күн бұрын

yes that 10% bonus for forgiveness it the skill to learn id say. its relatively easy to retaliate or forgive but finding that balance with a focus on forgiveness is what kids have to learn. (im 22 and thinking about gametheorie since 10 years or so. im getting better at it)

@stuckonearth4967

14 күн бұрын

Kids who were taught to be always nice and never get involved in a fight, get bullied and become the worst people sadly.

@soloplaysgames9965

14 күн бұрын

It might be a skill to learn if that means you're learning why people defect and how to drop the need to retaliate. It could be learning to let go of grudges which are really just deep seated emotions that are usually compartmentalized. Forgiveness is about not taking defection as a perceived personal attack.

@hippiehillape

14 күн бұрын

This theory only works in 2 player games. It is not a life lesson.

@stuckonearth4967

14 күн бұрын

@@hippiehillape Even in the video, there were multiple "players" programs playing the game...

One of the rare videos that should literally be watched by everyone.

@ArtucoDev

Ай бұрын

not just this video, everyone should watch Veritasium's videos

@McPilch

Ай бұрын

It won't change the elites, who in turn will never be overthrown.

@emmettkeyser1110

Ай бұрын

Why? Because you want everyone to think like you do? Sounds like a poor strategy.

@ArtucoDev

Ай бұрын

what are you yapping about?@@McPilch

@AzureImperium7701X

Ай бұрын

@@emmettkeyser1110it’s good for people to at least know of these things and choose if they believe them.

WOW!! This discussion goes way beyond the elements of Game Theory taught in undergraduate college courses, yet these results are so very important for all individuals and societies to comprehend.

Yep. This is indeed "one of the rare videos that should literally be watched by everyone". KZread algorithms gotta work hard to promote this.

This is the kind of Veritasium Video I have been craving for. The one video which can change my perspective and connecting something abstract like maths to real life philosophies and mathematically proving it. Truly fascinating.

@Dont_Read_My_Picture

4 ай бұрын

Don't read my name!!

@CarlinTran

4 ай бұрын

Same actually. Has me reconsidering life choices as well

@djrea4815

4 ай бұрын

Seriously a top 5 Veritasium video IMO. really connects a lot of interesting topics and brings the philosophy down to a personal level

@dylanmcshane9976

4 ай бұрын

Give me an example@@CarlinTran

@Hardik-Srivastava

4 ай бұрын

True, I was too waiting for such video for a long time that uses mathematics to solve our real world problems and give us a mathematical perspective of life

THIS IS AWESOME INFORMATION!! Imagine if everyone would understand that cooperating and being kind and forgiving pays off best for everyone...

@keepyoursins

4 ай бұрын

Well said ElectroBOOM.

@digitalcurrents

4 ай бұрын

Don't be a pushover! It's one of the most important fundamental rules that always gets forgotten when I hear sanctimonious leaders encouraging followers to act meek.

@joeynelson1609

4 ай бұрын

as in a "FULL BRIDGE" Cooperation, maybe ;)

@mikestewart4752

4 ай бұрын

I’ll cooperate with you ElectroBOOM, but I’m not holding onto those bare wires while you plug the other end in!!! 😉

@Ignirium

4 ай бұрын

Yeah well, People get betrayed(hurt) at a young age by people around them, at school, by friends or what they thought were friends, or even their parents, so what does that teach them?

This is my first video on Game Theory. I always avoided the subject because I thought it was about how game designers have been trying to apply more realistic features in modern video games. Thank you for making this clear and easy to understand and follow. The results were reassuring, but not surprising. The world would all be a better place if we cooperated more and hated each other less.

Students these days would be better off watching veritasium videos than going to school. Awesome vid.

I find this fascinating. It confirms one of my favorite quotes, "do unto others 20% better than you would expect them to do unto you, to correct for subjective error".

@grxy5924

4 ай бұрын

Interesting quote

@SCORP1ONF1RE

4 ай бұрын

"Always leave a room a little cleaner than you found it".

@_FJB_

4 ай бұрын

This is by far the best comment on here!

@zixvirzjghamn737

4 ай бұрын

@@SCORP1ONF1REbut then everyone would go blind from how clean all the rooms would be

@cedriceveleigh

4 ай бұрын

​@@_FJB_thanks!

Adding this to my list of "Best KZread videos of all time"

@tpsam

2 ай бұрын

I also have that playlist Top 10 greatest video ever but it's more tailored to my personality rather than objectively universally great like this video

@tedbuckley3502

2 ай бұрын

Id love to hear some selections off of people lists

@sketchflix6425

2 ай бұрын

Period ❤

@MaxProgramming-uv6br

2 ай бұрын

Me too but Subhan Allah Tit for Tat method has been mentioned in our holy book "Quran" : وَقَـٰتِلُوا۟ فِى سَبِيلِ ٱللَّهِ ٱلَّذِينَ يُقَـٰتِلُونَكُمْ وَلَا تَعْتَدُوٓا۟ ۚ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ لَا يُحِبُّ ٱلْمُعْتَدِينَ) {١٩٠}) Fight in the cause of Allah ˹only˺ against those who wage war against you, but do not exceed the limits.1 Allah does not like transgressors. ٱلشَّهْرُ ٱلْحَرَامُ بِٱلشَّهْرِ ٱلْحَرَامِ وَٱلْحُرُمَـٰتُ قِصَاصٌۭ ۚ فَمَنِ ٱعْتَدَىٰ عَلَيْكُمْ فَٱعْتَدُوا۟ عَلَيْهِ بِمِثْلِ مَا ٱعْتَدَىٰ عَلَيْكُمْ ۚ وَٱتَّقُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ وَٱعْلَمُوٓا۟ أَنَّ ٱللَّهَ مَعَ ٱلْمُتَّقِينَ) { ١٩٤}) Surrah Al-Baqarah Ayah 194 : ˹There will be retaliation in˺ a sacred month for ˹an offence in˺ a sacred month,1 and all violations will bring about retaliation. So, if anyone attacks you, retaliate in the same manner. ˹But˺ be mindful of Allah, and know that Allah is with those mindful ˹of Him˺. The issue was we didn't follow islam well the last 200 years but those late ones we follow them well inshallah, and we will make our kids real followers may Allah help us.☝😊 True message from illiterate messenger & prophet to prove the unknown for all man kinds in all next times. He is the last prophet Mohammed peace be upon him

@MaxProgramming-uv6br

2 ай бұрын

Me too but Subhan Allah Tit for Tat method has been mentioned in our holy book "Quran" : وَقَـٰتِلُوا۟ فِى سَبِيلِ ٱللَّهِ ٱلَّذِينَ يُقَـٰتِلُونَكُمْ وَلَا تَعْتَدُوٓا۟ ۚ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ لَا يُحِبُّ ٱلْمُعتدينَ) {١٩٠}) Surrah Al-Baqarah Ayah 190 : Fight in the cause of Allah ˹only˺ against those who wage war against you, but do not exceed the limits.1 Allah does not like transgressors. ٱلشَّهْرُ ٱلْحَرَامُ بِٱلشَّهْرِ ٱلْحَرَامِ وَٱلْحُرُمَـٰتُ قِصَاصٌۭ ۚ فَمَنِ ٱعْتَدَىٰ علَيكمْ فَٱعْتَدُوا۟ عَلَيْهِ بِمِثْلِ مَا ٱعْتَدىٰ عَلَيْكُمْ ۚ وَٱتَّقُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ وَٱعْلَمُوٓا أَن ٱللَّهَ مَعَ ٱلْمُتَّقِينَ) { ١٩٤}) Surrah Al-Baqarah Ayah 194 : ˹There will be retaliation in˺ a sacred month for ˹an offence in˺ a sacred month,1 and all violations will bring about retaliation. So, if anyone attacks you, retaliate in the same manner. ˹But˺ be mindful of Allah, and know that Allah is with those mindful ˹of Him˺. The issue was we didn't follow islam well the last 200 years but those late ones we are going to follow them well inshallah, and we will make our kids real followers may Allah help us and protect them.☝😊 True message from illiterate messenger & prophet to prove the unknown for all man kinds in all next times. He is the last prophet Mohammed peace be upon him

Derek, you have climbed several notches in my regards. Your most unmissable video to date. Presenting meaningful life lesson with a definitive mathematical proof is something only Veritasium could have pulled of. Brilliant stringing of pearls of wisdom using behavioral economics. The 4 takeaways now hangs on my wall with the title "Talisman". Thank you for bringing this treasure to the world.

That really was an excellent video. You're a great presenter/researcher for this platform and the result is beautiful. Thank you so much! 😊

The way Professor Strogatz was so excited when he saw Professor Axelrod genuinely made my night ☺️

@rheavasanthkumar6335

2 ай бұрын

"hey hey, and there's Steven Strogatz!" 🥹

@Twisted_Code

2 ай бұрын

Keep in mind these living legends are still, unfortunately, old, and therefore not as familiar with things like zoom. It's rather ironic, since their work may have inspired the very tools they can now use. …You know, if we ever cure aging, I hope it also solves the difficulty older people have with learning about new technologies. I tried to explain the basics of videogame control conventions (e.g. that a lot of games use the same button for jumping) to someone at least one generation older than me. I got the impression that what I said made sense to them in theory, but that it wouldn't be retained

@shortsismakingmybrainrot

2 ай бұрын

9:44 Timestamp for anyone else who wants to rewatch this wholesome moment after reading this comment

@Azer1125

2 ай бұрын

@@Twisted_Code I think that both of those professors that were coding when our own parents were babies can wrap their heads around things like zoom and video chat. I think it's just a bit of obsequious humor with each other

@conradrogers317

2 ай бұрын

@@Twisted_Code Neuroplasticity (the ability of the mind to change itself) does have a downward trend with age... the vibrant old folks who embrace new things are rare. The reasons for this are partly biological, but partly to do with personality types, and the rabbit hole of how to measure psychological factors is a deep one!

"Most of life is not zero sum" needs to be printed on a t-shirt (and every billboard the world over). Would solve so much destructive, envy driven behavior.

@RunescapeGod

4 ай бұрын

ayo its blenderguru

@mardshima2070

4 ай бұрын

Except sadly this game theory mostly assume we are all equal in power which is definitely not the case IRL. Some people might begin the game with +10 or something point which can secure their winning even if they play nasty. Some people also might begin the game with -10 or something point which guarantee their lose, so they might ends up choose to play nasty to ensure the points gap not that big.

@harshadadagale4253

4 ай бұрын

make donuts for prisoners

@billbenedict4664

4 ай бұрын

@@mardshima2070 good point about not starting equally. However, the gap between nice and not-nice strategies was pretty large, and it only gets larger over time.

@emmanuelalagbala9590

4 ай бұрын

​@mardshima2070 power doesn't change anything. The only assumption made is that everyone benefits equally

This study is something that I can really relate closely to so many things that are happening around. Simple yet it gives a strong message.

Gorgeous experiment. Gorgeous video. Thankyou. 🌸🙏

What an awesome, thought-provoking video! I’m reminded of this quote: “Competition is the law of the jungle, but cooperation is the law of civilization.” - Peter Kropotkin

@anarchosnowflakist786

2 ай бұрын

I didn't expect to see a Kropotkin citation here ! here's another : "in the long run the practice of solidarity proves much more advantageous to the species than the development of individuals endowed with predatory inclinations"

@johnr0417

2 ай бұрын

Those are some amazing quotes, now I have someone new to research!

@anarchosnowflakist786

2 ай бұрын

@@johnr0417 he is a fascinating writer, not only was he politically very influencial, he also had a big impact by changing how we viewed darwinian evolution (at the time there were so called "social darwinists" who thought that individuals were just in competition with everyone else and didn't take into account collaboration, in the same way they tried to apply these theses to society to justify its state, for example by saying some societies, states, cultures, races, etc. were more legitimate because they were more "successful")

@coenraadloubser5768

2 ай бұрын

Absolutely. Too bad they don't understand religions more deeply... Turning the cheek meems shaming the oppressor, when read in the context of the time. It's more sophisticated than eye for an eye, and also, tit for tat vs all other strategies is not eye for an eye, eye for an eye against itself loses against that...

@anarchosnowflakist786

2 ай бұрын

@@coenraadloubser5768 interesting, what is the difference between "an eye for an eye" and tit for tat in this context ?

KZread needs to put this on everyone's recommended like seriously.

@conradrogers317

2 ай бұрын

Be nice! Math says so!

@kirito3082

2 ай бұрын

​@@conradrogers317 Only if you have nice people to play with, I don't think that's true of our world anymore, at least not in some areas.

@youhastobekiddingme

2 ай бұрын

​@@kirito3082 Absolutely, But the best for us. We never know what strategy the next person would chose to do. Only if we know it then we can modify our strategy accordingly. But this is gonna be beneficial in the long term, when you interact with too many people.

@bankaihampter2802

2 ай бұрын

​@@conradrogers317that's not what it says. It says 'don't be nasty'. Remember third point, retaliate. If someone is nasty, You can't be a pushower and be good

@GreenEyess666

2 ай бұрын

Sadly most people dont have the patience to sit thru a dense info vid. They are probably not so nice

I love what this guy put up on you tube. Really a very good youtuber. Your videos are great and the effort you put in your videos really shows how passionately you love this work.

Propably the best and most important video on whole KZread. Great job

Never did I expect to learn so much and be so inspired about probability, human psychology, life, and war. All that in just 27 minutes. Thank you Derek!

@singularity2000

4 ай бұрын

The most successful algorithm is just like how China responds to U.S. sanctions lol

@adrianflo6481

4 ай бұрын

its just overly psuedo intellectual. Feels very american to be told what to think. Just read plato yourself instead of watching veritasium. his video on concrete was a lot more fun when it didnt try to be deep.

@advitiayanand5974

4 ай бұрын

​​@@adrianflo6481"overly pseudo intellectual" My friend, I hope you know that you seem to be describing yourself (or atleast your comment).

@advitiayanand5974

4 ай бұрын

It's a genuinely good video. Well researched, well structured, well edited. Content can be great regardless of medium. Don't you think?

@adrianflo6481

4 ай бұрын

From Derek always wanting to present things deeper than they are. instead of letting things speak for themselves. the title of the video and the Intro for example. feels motivational and nature documentary. not scientific If youve read the selfish Gene by dawkins you already know that the prisoners dilemma is somewhat the basis of genetic research and evolution. But in no way does it point to cooperation. Compare this to Steve mould or Vsauce and at least i see clear distinction in the narrative.@@advitiayanand5974

This is the best piece of content I've seen on the internet. I genuinely want this to blow up just for the sake of humanity. I want to quote King on this, "Hate cannot drive out hate, only love can do that". Bless everyone who reads this, hope you have a wonderful life.

@namelessaccount2325

2 ай бұрын

People hate me because I am Muslim , Islam tells me to love people who hate me and never hate them back . But the problem is , my religion doesn't tolerate many things and doesn't accept different kinds of people . But neither tells me to hate them or harm them or even put distance between them and myself , they are just not acceptable to be Muslims and in most Muslim countries the things they do aren't allowed so other young Muslims don't follow them . How to love them even though they hate me because my religion said don't do the things they do ? How to prove to people that I don't hate them and I am not a bad person . Because I know that Islam is portrayed as bad and misogynistic and that Muslim are seen as ignorant terrorist , and that women are treated like trash (even though it is quite the opposite , women must be treated better than how the man gets treated , men have to work but it is optional for them ) . We are not bad why most of the world hates us , and think we are stupid because we believe in God, and they just think he is imagery , even though they know nothing about Islam, Muslim people and never tried to read the holy qouran .

@AbeldeBetancourt

2 ай бұрын

Nah, kid. You are just programmed to destroy by your own environment under the false promise of freedom of thought @@musashi542

@AugustCrossroads

2 ай бұрын

It's pretty good but you must've gotten an internet connection last week

@namelessaccount2325

2 ай бұрын

@@AugustCrossroads to you what is the best piece of content on the Internet

@mathewhex7045

2 ай бұрын

I wont, but thank you

Not only this sponser is brilliant, but this video too. I appreciate the amount of work that was put into this. Thanks!

Love when you can, fight when you must. This is an all time best You Tube. The Peace Process in game theory detail. Thanks.

Cool that you named and showed the photo of Stanislav Petrov, we may all own our lives to this man!

@thomasstaudte653

15 күн бұрын

A pretty underrated comment... think about it for a minute. Petrov truly was a man with a brain, not just with a finger. Google him if you don't yet know the entire story of 26th September 1983. May he rest in peace as he has saved the peace in the world (that time) - although, unfortunately, mostly unremembered today.

@mirochlebovec6586

15 күн бұрын

@@thomasstaudte653Yeah there should be streets, schools, hospitals and spacecenters named after Petrov.

@heinzriemann3213

14 күн бұрын

It's not like there wasn't any framework for evaluating alerts of such kind. The Soviets weren't idiots, even though everyone seems to pretend like they were.

@gregchris418

13 күн бұрын

Actually drunkard Yeltsin was told about the missiles and knew it couldn't be true, since we were at peacetime with Russia. He Ignored it and went back to sleep

@davidhopewell9454

12 күн бұрын

Now we have moved from tit for tat in Ukraine, to being very forgiving. A real life test of responsive decision making.

“So let’s play a game, the game of life, and make your choices wisely, because their impact may reach further than you think.” Words to live by Great video as always Veritasium!

@Airstrike_lol

2 ай бұрын

Yooo i didnt know a arsenic atom watched veritasium

@alexanderleuchte5132

2 ай бұрын

“So let’s play a game, the game of life, and first let's get rid of all the numbers and ststistics fetishists, because they have ruined enough of it already"

@edvinkarlsson9368

14 күн бұрын

@@alexanderleuchte5132ststistics

Brilliant video. Thanks a lot! Great you had Prof. Axelrod too!

Oh man, so happy to have watched this video. This is fascinating information, and it's the first time I stumble upon such interesting topic. Thanks!

Did they just mathematically prove karma?

@MegaYost

11 күн бұрын

Not exactly but close

@Wong-Jack-Man

10 күн бұрын

Law of attraction, synchronicity, karma yes.

@mr._joshi02

9 күн бұрын

we can ultimately prove everything using maths we just need to become more and more advanced in understanding maths

@johntitorii6676

9 күн бұрын

What goes around comes around

@CircuitrinosOfficial

8 күн бұрын

That depends on which definition of karma you're using. Some definitions are equivalent to cause and effect.

Love this quote: "Be nice, forgiving, but don't be a pushover" - Derek / Veritasium

@N73B60

4 ай бұрын

Cooperation arises spontaneously, it's called "free market". The only problem are the politicians and the state.

@cattymajiv

4 ай бұрын

@@N73B60 Anyone who believes the free market produces cooperation is a complete moron.

@vpheonix

4 ай бұрын

@@N73B60 The "Free Market" isn't about cooperation, it's about competition.

@dogdjinn

4 ай бұрын

@@vpheonix i think he was weird to bring it up but i don't think that's true. any sort of economy is built on the mutual trust of rules and that the rules will be enforced. otherwise there couldn't be money

@vpheonix

4 ай бұрын

@@dogdjinn He refered specifically to the "Free Market", not to the economy in general. The free market specifically requires competition. In fact, if there were any cooperation, that's called "Crony Capitalism". e.g If all retailers in a specific sector of the market get together and decide to artificially raise the price on a product, so that, no matter what retailer you went to, you always payed the same price, that would no longer be a free market.

This video changed my perspective on life. So seriously, thank you.

Such a mind blowing video. Teaching the way of life with proof of data. I'm sharing this right away in my circle. Thanks a lot!

This may be your best video ever. The implications of this research are so vast and so impactful, I am saddened I have never encountered it before now. It seems like a major gap in my own education. As a psychotherapist, these winning strategies have a clear and immediate usefulness in therapy, and this research shows in concrete terms why these strategies are beneficial, beyond the merely moralistic appeal. Further, these strategies have massive social implications, especially when you start talking about the "noise" components. Those strategies that are willing/able to misinterpret a cooperation as a defection, and who then hold a grudge, are among the worst of all losers, and it seems that the social implications are pretty clear. But to be forgiving of accidental defections allows the system to be mutually beneficial. That is very powerful stuff, right there.

@Sho-is5vu

3 ай бұрын

I recommend playing a short mobile game The evolution of trust by Nicky Case. In half an hour it gives such great insights through interactive simulationa

@BillAnt

3 ай бұрын

Fascinating stuff, truly enjoyed it.

@enricozetti6487

3 ай бұрын

I'm wondering to what extent can we apply this model to our environment and society. For example, in the model, each relationship is independent but, in our society, behaviour and outcomes of a relationship with someone can have effects on the relationships with others. Also, how would the results of this model change if we were to modify the arbitrarily set outcome values (3-3, 5-0, 1,1). Does the winning strategy change in a system where certain outcomes are more or less profitable? If it does, what set of values is the more representative of a human relationship? Or is each circumstance so unique that it is impossible to model a common set of values?

@meleardil

3 ай бұрын

@Veritaserum, please make a followup video with ASYMMETRIC strategies, sexual dimorphism as an EXAMPLE

@Rick-the-Swift

3 ай бұрын

Has anyone considered the implications of modifying the rules, even slightly? I bet it's just as easy to win being nasty as it is nice, once the rules provide for those conditions. IOW, this "game" is really only proof that humans can become distracted by the results, and mostly ignore the fact that the rules were crafted to formulate such a result. IOW, we've learned nothing from this game, other than we live and die by the rules we make. Fascinating indeed.

I like how scientists cooperatively examined the effectiveness of cooperation lol

@bullschitt3666

4 ай бұрын

I'm sure there was plenty of competition

@ryanyoung3890

4 ай бұрын

@@bullschitt3666meaningful competition necessitates cooperation. You can’t compete in something beneficial without cooperation. Opposing soccer teams may appear to be competing but they are also both cooperating. If both teams don’t cooperate by agreeeing on rules and agreeing to follow those rules and cooperating to allow those rules to be enforced to a certain degree then there is no game to be played. If one player just picks the ball up with their hands and punches their way to the goal and throws it in and then yells “GOOOOAL” they were neither competing nor cooperating. They were just being a dick. There is no competition without cooperation.

@Almindor

4 ай бұрын

@@bullschitt3666 Competition is a form of cooperation. They cooperate in the field of advencement of understanding of a given subject. Ironically, competition in some endeavors is favourable to the whole more than cooperation would be.

@Andreasito

4 ай бұрын

I'm a bit irritated. I mean: the sole definition of "co-operating" is already to "associate with others in order to meet one's common needs and aspirations". So why should doing the opposite ever give any better results in that sense? Isn't that just tauto-logical ? - please correct me there.

@davidekdal7190

4 ай бұрын

​@@AndreasitoI think you are correct, I think the point above just clears up what might seem to be cooperation, is not always defenitional cooperation as you described it. What in reality is being a pushover, a bully, or a dumbass might with careful framing seem to be cooperation. You can't decide whether someone is cooperative without asserting their environment.

This is one of the most educational videos I’ve ever seen and I love it so much more cuz of that. Grand video to watch! So much joy from learning good things.

You people are seriously artists. This was so expertly presented, cited, and researched. The best kinds of things I learn are the ones I can't stop smiling about. Thanks so much!

_"Be nice, be forgiving, do not be a pushover, and be clear"_ a conclusion we all someday independently arrive at.

@scratchknudsen1

4 ай бұрын

Don't forget what could be the most important factor, and that is "be clear."

@GugSport

4 ай бұрын

Not all, sadly.

@vladbolshakov6387

3 күн бұрын

Except Putin

Thank you for putting this in clear language 😊

This is brilliant! TY for researching and sharing. 👍

This is Veritasium's best type of content. Super interesting stuff and very nicely put together!

This is legit one of your best videos. Such a complicated and 'real worldly’ concept explained in the finest way possible. Hats off!!

@goldnutter412

4 ай бұрын

Nailed it

Okay this was a waaay better video than I expected. Subscribed. Watching this at almost 1AM.

Incredible video, very interesting and well explained. Subscribed.

Wow, I've been a subscriber for a while, but this is the best Veritasium video I've ever seen. It's got an interesting concept, good flow, a subtle buildup of complexity that keeps it both understandable and interesting, amazing stylized animations and visuals, interviews with visionaries in the related field, and most of all, a positive and non-doomsday conclusion. Thank you.

@opticalreticle

4 ай бұрын

this is really similar to the Primer video

@loftlo

4 ай бұрын

Derek's videos are all made this way. This one is one of the best videos. I find game theory difficult to understand, but this video makes me easy to follow. He always finds ways to make audience easy to visualise and understand abstract concepts.

@Ureelyreelysuck

4 ай бұрын

HAHAHAHAHHA@@loftlo

@markusseppala6547

4 ай бұрын

Same, I always thought why game theory is such a big deal but this video finally explained it well.@@loftlo

@gabrielf4518

4 ай бұрын

This guy has some competitors on what is the best ever, but I agree that this is one really good video

"Most of life is not zero sum" and "in the short term the environment shapes the player, but in the long term the players shape the environment" are absolutely incredible takeaways. I came for the usual Veritasium awesomeness, and left with one of the most thought provoking and inspirational video's I've seen in some time. Derek, this is why you are my absolute favorite channel on KZread. Thank you.

@JenniferShubeck-hx3fc

3 ай бұрын

Same-sies 🎉

@midtownmariner5250

3 ай бұрын

This philosophy (non-zero) is likely the key to continued survival and advancement. If AI operates on a zero sum basis, then we are in big trouble.

@midtownmariner5250

3 ай бұрын

Extremely powerful video. I have considered this “the way” for a long time now; yet knowing the path is easier than walking it.

@sterix_gg

3 ай бұрын

Before the mind can create the world - the world creates the mind.

@agalerex

3 ай бұрын

@@midtownmariner5250 How are we in big trouble?

Like description says - highly recommend to try the game Evolution of trust by Nicky Case too. Cause there you can not only watch, but try all the strategies yourself to feel better and remember the point

This video is amazing !! Well done done for creating it

This is by far my favourite Veritasium video.

@Long-legged

17 күн бұрын

This is my least favorite one.

@melancholymoshpit

15 күн бұрын

@@Long-legged - 5 Points @OttawaRocks - 0 Points

@phaaalix4671

15 күн бұрын

@@melancholymoshpit obvious, yet genius reply

@mrhassell

15 күн бұрын

I agree, I mean.. defect.

@Abdullah_hakim

15 күн бұрын

@@melancholymoshpit the sarcasm is ingenious

This might be my favorite Veritasium video so far. It was challenging but I didn't get lost like I usually do. This was an amazing example of scientific research that had so many real world applications... the narration and animations explained everything so well.

@Pingwinho

4 ай бұрын

@@RepentandbelieveinJesusChrist. no thanks

@PronatorTendon

4 ай бұрын

​@@RepentandbelieveinJesusChrist. What a bunch of nonsense

@Gakulon

4 ай бұрын

​@@RepentandbelieveinJesusChrist.How about you choose something more related to the video? "O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones." Psalm 137:8-9

Some words i live by are "work hard and be nice and amazing things will happen to you". For me, the universe will come together to help you accomplish all. This was an experiment on that and i love it

wow, i really expected this to be more nihilistic... but i'm glad! it's comforting to know such a simple line of logic is the so good!

This really put a smile on my face, it is brilliant, a mathematically philosophical masterpiece! Really brings hope into a seemingly hopeless world!

@MagicPlants

4 ай бұрын

it would have been cool to hear from Dawkins

@robert-rv8lo

4 ай бұрын

And really if you think about it, an explanation of why capitalism makes everyone worse off (but better off than under feudalism systems), and why its destruction is inevitable.

@dusk2308

4 ай бұрын

@@robert-rv8lo and how communism never really gets any better than capitalism.

@themore-you-know

4 ай бұрын

@@robert-rv8lo, your comment makes no sense. Capitalism, in many ways, IS the island of tit-for-tat goodness. It allows free exchange between people, and ruptures bridges among bad economic partners, but still allows for later reconnection. That island then grows outward. Communism, by comparison, is a system that either requires everyone to switch in a single flash, or for its "not nice" nature to bully everyone into submission. Furthermore, communism and even all systems based on "human rights" do not function, as they require all participants to be gaslighted into thinking all jobs are equivalent, even though one person is dancing up on a stage, and the other is down the sewers. At which point the sewer man is better off defecting. Lastly, communism requires central planning and is therefor prone to a lot of noise: wherein defectors can insert themselves, until they become the system.

@dusk2308

4 ай бұрын

where if you REALLY think about it communism needs capitalism otherwise how would we know if communism is the objectively correct answer

Veritasium single-handedly restoring my faith in humanity

@dcmirk

4 ай бұрын

Lol. We're all doomed.

@markmuller7962

4 ай бұрын

I hope this theory will help solving the loneliness epidemic

@Dont_Read_My_Picture

4 ай бұрын

Don't read my name!!

@LuisSierra42

4 ай бұрын

@@markmuller7962 This theory has existed for decades and loneliness is only increasing

@buckjones4901

4 ай бұрын

But it should restore your faith in God since that is what Jesus taught us, to forgive and love each other is the best way.

Life, the universe, and everything? Obviously, the answer is 42.

Awesome job on sharing this !!!!

One of my favourite classes in university was called Special Topics on Game Theory and I kid you not, every other week our teacher woud come up with one of these games (like the prisioner's dillema or rock-paper-scissors) which we would play against an unknown random colleague and our payoff would then be added as a bonus at the end of the semester. He also presented the stats and you could really see the number of people cooperating rising throughout the semester. It was an amazing class

@graham2088

15 күн бұрын

Might I ask what were the results

@kadayeu

15 күн бұрын

that sounds so sick to actually play it out in person week by week, i feel like that class would change me as a person lmao

@beepbop6697

15 күн бұрын

How do you cooperate in rock-paper-scissors ?

@graham2088

15 күн бұрын

@@beepbop6697 appreciate and being glad for the person who won than challenging again till you win. Maybe that's how? Not a 100% though😂

@beepbop6697

15 күн бұрын

@@graham2088 RPS is a zero sum game, there is no cooperation that helps all players. Your loss is my win and vice versa.

Robert Axelrod's The Evolution Of Cooperation has been the most important book on my shelf for over 20 years, and I'm glad to see the work get more coverage.

@GibbyGrant

2 ай бұрын

Thanks for the tip, will add it to my list of books to read.

As a game designer this is a really important aspect of Game Theory to understand, but also as a person :D thank you for this, and for explaining everything in such a clear way!

another great one. and thanks for the extensive references below the video.

Watching this video felt like a deep echo of the values my parents, teachers, and loved ones instilled in me from a young age. The emphasis on action and consequence, the power of forgiveness, and the ultimate realization that true self-interest lies in long-term harmony and cooperation felt remarkably familiar. It wasn’t labeled “The Prisoners Dilemma” back then, but these ideas were woven into the fabric of everyday life. Whether it was the simple reminder to be kind to others because “what goes around comes around,” or the emphasis on learning from mistakes and starting anew, these lessons resonated with the core concepts of Karma, Kshama, and Moksha in Sanatana Dharma. This isn’t about promoting any specific belief system, but about recognizing the timeless wisdom in fostering cooperation, forgiveness, and a mindful approach to life. In a world that often focuses on individual triumph, I believe it’s vital to instill these values in younger generations. It’s not just about navigating through games like the Prisoner’s Dilemma, but about building a future where cooperation and compassion are the foundation for success, both individual and collective.

@isaacmasimore

3 ай бұрын

So good! Thank you @aswani

@Volkbrecht

3 ай бұрын

There is just one problem with that attitude: it requires all players of the game to share the same basic values, if at varying levels. When you have players that don't, you run into the tolerance paradox: the other side factors in your basic nicety and will abuse you over and over again.

@krox477

3 ай бұрын

Capitalism emerged out of cooperation

@jenm1

3 ай бұрын

It's just cold reading in the form of a video

Wow.. What a nice video.. Thanks so much for creating this video..!! I believe the world would be a better place because of it 😊

@Toydota

22 күн бұрын

🤑🤑

@kanahbal

21 күн бұрын

This is the kind of videos worth donating to. Thanks to you generous gentleman.

@sirkingstewart8106

21 күн бұрын

Thank you for donating to these type of videos. One day I shall be like you

@sampajano

21 күн бұрын

@@Toydota same to you my friend!

@sampajano

21 күн бұрын

@@sirkingstewart8106 thank you! I'm sure you will! 😊

Its been years I gave Thumb up to a video. Kudos brother. Thank you.

As someone who's fascinated by evolutionary psychology it's amazing to see that game theory neatly explains human morality - because initially being nice combined with being forgiving but also sometimes seeking proportional revenge for wrongs is the optimal system of morals.

@marcuslei6743

6 күн бұрын

I am too interested in EP and game theory. What’s your name?

This Game Theory reminds me of a saying we have in India, which roughly translates to "Don't be so sweet that People take advantage of you, and don't be so bitter that People completely avoid you".

@jawadjunejothevagabond9992

2 ай бұрын

Hope we can make peace with each other too... Greetings from PAKISTAN

@BangMaster96

2 ай бұрын

@@jawadjunejothevagabond9992 Yes. Working together benefits all.

@Vivek10010

Ай бұрын

@@jawadjunejothevagabond9992 Honestly it will not happen until Blasphemy law isnt removed from both countries and anyone criticising religion (especially one of them) dont face life threatening situations. I said that as sincerely as I could, no hate

@jawadjunejothevagabond9992

Ай бұрын

I agree... The religion is only used to keep the people under control so that they don't rebel against the actual handlers... @@Vivek10010

@mangosorbet8183

Ай бұрын

@@jawadjunejothevagabond9992this is beautiful thank you for posting comment

Can’t believe this exists! I’m a teacher for 25 years and counting, “Be nice. Don’t be a pushover. Be forgiving. Be clear”, has always been my approach and I’ve always been well thought of by my students and have helped them fulfil their potential, especially the tough nuts to crack. WORK HARD. BE NICE. LEARN FROM MISTAKES. GROWTH MINDSET. Excellent video. May we all find peace through cooperation.

@Joppi1992

24 күн бұрын

Greed will always prevent a scoreboard full of perfect scores. That desire is hardwired in people, although some may not realize they do have it, and there are differences between how strong an instinct can be from person to person. But it's because it's part of our survival instincts that it's hardwired in people, and it can benefit the people that utilize it well, although it can hurt the people that utilize it poorly. For example, instead of only hunting and gathering just enough to survive the day and then hope for the same result the next day when starting over from scratch, hunting and gathering a surplus for the next day will ensure you've got two days covered instead of one. Then continue expanding that range of greed to more and more, and eventually you'll have your entire life covered. Then expand even beyond what's enough for your own life, and as a result you'll have your family's lives covered even after you're gone. Continue even further and then you'll have generations beyond your passing, covered. The extent to where greed can take a person and their future lineage, is only limited by external factors. The instinct itself isn't really limited though, it's just suppressed by the conscious mind (in some more than others), and satisfaction provides a momentary reason for your brain to self-regulate, since it wants to enjoy that satisfaction and not waste it on more laborious tasks since it would distract the brain from that feeling of satisfaction. But satisfaction itself is dictated by chemicals in the brain, and those chemicals are even something a brain can grow desensitized towards, so the quantity needed to be satisfied will end up increasing if you feel satisfied too often, which leads to addiction. It's kind of like how you'll desire stronger and stronger doses of certain addictive meds for them to keep working the same, which is only limited by the external factor of regulatory safety measures which are defined by medical research. No government is impervious to human behavioral principles, no matter how much redundancy is built into any governmental system that's meant to keep it in check.

@GCSEPhysicsExplained

22 күн бұрын

@@Joppi1992 Tom Shadyac (Ace Ventura director) did a good job in his documentary “I am” of pinpointing some of the points you raise. It’s a good watch if you haven’t saw it. In it he mentions Peter Farb’s book “Man’s rise to Civilisation”, which is about how American Indian Cultures, who considered accumulating more resources than you need a mental illness, were treated. Without getting too deep, I think the key to a successful human race involves us being respectful towards nature and slowing down. Have a nice day.

@Joppi1992

22 күн бұрын

@@GCSEPhysicsExplained I once talked with a nurse about why people won't do better, and she gave this answer: "Most people already knows what to do. Barely anyone does it." The topic itself was about eating right, living well, and so on. But that reply she gave can be applied to a lot of things in the world. The point is that it's fairly simple to identify what is objectively better overall for everyone, on an intellectual level. But it'll almost never, if ever, be acted upon. As for that example you brought up, that was just a stigmatization of greed, but it doesn't deny that it is part of people. It was just their attempt to regulate it. It's also pretty well-documented how stigmatizing a characteristic doesn't get rid of it. While in the global society as of today, money is the most widespread driving force for people, except for other basic instincts like sx drives and so on. So while it's easy to identify world peace as one of the best things to achieve, almost nobody will do anything about it. Not even people in positions able to do something about it will prioritize it. For example, even though it's a commonly preached ambition to work towards world peace in the world of politics, no country will prioritize another country over their own. Any help provided to others, is always motivated by receiving something in return to make it worth it, like increased political power, securing trade for national resources, preventing the spread of hostile political power, and so on. Without something to make it worth helping another country, then a country will essentially willingly leave that country behind.

@GCSEPhysicsExplained

22 күн бұрын

@@Joppi1992 you sound switched on, thoughtful and intelligent. I hope we’ll get there if there’s enough of us that care. Dalai Lama- “The ocean is just a collection of drops of water”. I’d also like to quote Jimi Hendrix who said, “until the power of love is greater than the love of power, we won’t achieve peace”. Just hope we get there sooner rather than later with world temperature increasing.

@JohnMoseley

19 күн бұрын

Yes, all my best teachers took this approach and I see it as good parenting too. It always surprises me when I encounter people who don't do this.

was really into the evolution of trust as a kid. it related to a history lesson I learned and I tried to get the teacher to share it. in it there was a city where the population destroyed themselves after a "plague" of crime swept the streets. making it so more and more people were either forced to steal and fight or be stolen from. so like most they too joined in on the debauchery and petty theft. in the end they took everyone left who hadn't done wrong and left the city of crime to their own devices. within 2 months nearly 70% of them died of starvation. the remaining few were raided by a nearby civilization and cut down with obsidian weapons that would somewhat splinter on impact leaving shards imbedded in their skin that later rotted and killed them. It was the perfect example of the prisoners dilemma so I thought it was really cool I happened to find the game at that exact time.

Thank you. Finally I see Axelrod.

The prisoners dilemma assumes symmetry of consequences. In the real world, that is rarely the case. I would love to see an exploration of how these strategies work when asymmetric scoring exists.

@icodestuff6241

4 ай бұрын

look up nash equilibrium and evolutionary game theory, that's exactly what you want

@3nertia

4 ай бұрын

@@icodestuff6241 Was just about to recommend Game Theory as well. I believe SciShow has a primer on it in the context of decision-making

@patu8010

4 ай бұрын

Interesting thought. I think it would get complicated fast though. Doesn't seem obvious how you would define different kinds of players and judge their interactions.

@pratheshwarmeiyananthan8464

4 ай бұрын

Exactly , consequences are much asymmetrical in real world scenarios

@Sup3rlum

4 ай бұрын

Programs seem fairly simple, maybe its been done already, maybe someone can do it

As always, your videos are an absolute treat to watch

@SHUAIBDauda-bi1lu

4 ай бұрын

Hello guys

@shiro_yasha3343

4 ай бұрын

Okay, why did i read it trash to watch -_-

@FahimHossen-ym5ye

4 ай бұрын

Nice

@buiphong7779

3 ай бұрын

i like it

@reza-dv2sk

3 ай бұрын

Nice

thanks for this amazing video

I like this kind of videos where scientists are interviewed about their decades old work ( and maybe even reveal some undisclosed secrets ). They are old but still mentally sharp - admirable.

I learned about Axelrod's tournament from a Dawkins documentary that I never found again. I thought about it a lot and reached the same conclusions: open with trust, draw a strict line when that trust is breached and give people a second, third or fourth chance. Also, I keep in mind this strategy doesn't win the battle, but it does win the war. Thank you for adding to this with much more info and insights I didn't yet know, Derek!

@TheTim466

4 ай бұрын

It is also described in his book Selfish Gene which may contain some more information I believe.

@perekman3570

4 ай бұрын

​@@TheTim466Yes, but make sure to get the second edition, or later. Essential reading.

@ricf9592

4 ай бұрын

Saw this as well. Lived my life according to the rules since. Ended up with everything and anything I ever wanted as a by-product.

@kevinjamesmartin4307

4 ай бұрын

​@perekman3570 you need the prologue to the first edition though

Derek, what a well produced video this is. Probably one of your finest story-telling ones. Keep up the good work, team. This one landed really well.

@multiz0rak

4 ай бұрын

except for the typo at 17:20

@seekerofthemutablebalance5228

4 ай бұрын

Key takeaway: being able to retaliate is essential, not just for yourself but actually it ends up being better for those who would just default to nasty if there were no retaliation, because at some point, without a reasonably fair justice system, everyone will go full nasty and everyone loses. Example: full breakdown of society/war

@Artaxerxes.

4 ай бұрын

You've been neutered nicely

@seekerofthemutablebalance5228

4 ай бұрын

As a philosophy, we should default to forgiveness as often as we can allow and only punishment not in a sense of Revenge but as an example for the rest of society and for that person to inspire people to be "nice"

Thanks! It was super interesting

The behavior of Tit For Tat is basically the foundation of the behavior of every social mammal species because it produces the best results for all. Some animal species are solitary, some are social. Neither survival strategy is necessarily better than the other, but Tit For Tat is a very simple algorithm that optimizes the social survival strategy. We don't need magic to explain the existence of morality, we merely need to observe that humans are a social species rather than a solitary species. Also, morality is the inevitable conclusion the moment you realize you're not the only one who experiences suffering. So I suppose there's that.

This _blew my mind_ once I saw it in college, it's not an exaggeration to say that it's informed every choice I've made since, and I'm incredibly happy to now have a good resource to direct people to watch. Iterated games like this are _everywhere_

@newstartt99

Ай бұрын

Great if it works for you, but the strategy is dependent on the game design...if the game was set up so that you get zero points to betray, and 2 points to cooperate, we would all be saying forgiveness is the key; conversely if the game gave 0 points for cooperation and 2 points for a betray, we would draw the opposite conclusion...there are many other variants you could design, and draw conclusions from them, but extrapolating to life is too simplistic. Simplest example: chess...how often does cooperation work in chess? Never. Doesn't mean cooperation doesn't work in life...Have a great one.

@MeRetroGamer

Ай бұрын

@@newstartt99 Have you seen the entire video? Also, the setup here is giving 0 points for cooperation and 5 for betray... it's an even worse scenario than that which you propose and still the "be nice" algorithms win.

@KevinRiggle

Ай бұрын

@@newstartt99 Well sure, it just turns out that many, many real-life situations have payoff structures like the classic prisoners' dilemma. (And chess-like payoff structures mostly occur in... games.)

@newstartt99

Ай бұрын

Maybe - most situations have more than two players, of course - most of the time it pays to be "nice" to your team and "nasty" to the other team - it's deciding who is in your team that explains alot of human behaviour@@KevinRiggle

@panner11

Ай бұрын

@@newstartt99 The chess example is very short sighted. Chess is a game with direct competition, the opponent can only be your competition and there is no incentive to cooperative. But in real life, there is virtually no situation like this other than in games themselves (like sports). Even in a situation where someone attacks you, cooperation (ex convince them to stop and they agree) is a viable option. The video is just interesting evidence of the theory matching the reality. It's pretty obvious to any civil person that cooperating more than betraying in your daily life will lead to good outcomes.

I'm shocked at how much inspiration a 30-minute video can give, in so many layers!

@Unity536

2 ай бұрын

This is the biggest bs i have ever seen. Being nice in this simulation adds up to 6 points in total max, while being nasty adds up to 5 points in total max. And this is not a direct competition, so it doesn't matter who wins the battle. The end points are the things that are important instead. So the nice ones automatically get a 1 point advantage over the nasty ones. So before the start, the game is already mathematically rigged to favor the nice bots by 1 point. If you were to flip the numbers, then the nasty ones would have the 1 point advantage. Boom game theory solved. In reality, it's just bs. It's just simple probability. The only real thing you can get out of this is that it depends on the environment on who'll be in favor. So, in one situation, it would pay off to be nice, but in another, it'd be nasty. It just depends on what option is more rich in points for both collectively in that situation. Still, that's just a simple probability that everyone knows anyway. It all comes down to both players knowing the potential point gain with either option, which with equal power would put you at an expected equal result. So yeah. Bs. It's just simple math with fancy words. So this is a manipulation to promote cooperation for people who can't use math. Why would anyone want to randomly push cooperation? And who exactly has that intention? That's on you to decide.

@anujckothari

2 ай бұрын

@@Unity536 Fair point, the scoring given here has a huge impact on the outcome. And there is a reason why the points are given the way they are. If you go back to the original Prisoner’s Dilemma, and you see the outcomes of the actions they can take do you see why the points would be different and what they would be?

@sn0wbr33z3

2 ай бұрын

​@@Unity536This is not a zero sum game. There is no total where you'd expect 6 = 6. I find the scoring system to be fair. If nasty actions were given even 1 point extra there would be no reason to play nice at all. Whereas in this case, you really have a dilemma, to be nice or to be greedy.

@Unity536

2 ай бұрын

@@sn0wbr33z3 I literally just mathematically explained through words why the nice ones have an automatic advantage and how the results are simple probability (it's rigged basically). You didn't even provide why you think what you think.

@yukitwirly3044

2 ай бұрын

@@Unity536 where do you get the idea that "nice" strategies" add up to 6 points max while "nasty" strategies add up to 5 points max? Two participants who cooperate can score 3 points individually. Those 3 points are not summed up towards some sort of "nice" strategy pool. They are still competing against each other. I believe you are confused.

Got to be one of my favourite videos ever. Thanks for this.

Beautiful. So well made.

This has got to be one of your best videos to date. Interesting, sparks curiosity, well communicated and some easy takeaways as well as usual but on top of all that it's quite a reassuring message and theory about the future. Hopefully we can breakout of the echo effects you mention and all live happily ever after 😂

@martinheljedal7670

4 ай бұрын

Couldnt agree more!

@zachdave2994

4 ай бұрын

I like how he name drops the Soviet Union and suggests instant nuclear cooperation with them without even thinking about how that would impact the lives of people. As if they weren’t the nasty defecting types. The Soviet Union would very well still be alive if we’d gone full cooperation in 1945. They had half of Europe until 1989. They committed all the same atrocities the NSDAP did under the Axis powers and in 1933.

@ArawnOfAnnwn

4 ай бұрын

@@zachdave2994 Tell me you haven't watched the video without telling me you haven't watched the video. You would've been one of those failed strategies, probably in the first round of the simulation lol.

@zachdave2994

4 ай бұрын

@@ArawnOfAnnwn Copy and paste much? Do you have any original thoughts in there? Any real debates going on in this echo chamber?

@ArawnOfAnnwn

4 ай бұрын

@@zachdave2994 Same comment, same response. Why bother being original? You weren't.

"One of the main things that sets life apart from non-living things, is that life gets to make decisions" Loved that ❤

@Obscurai

4 ай бұрын

I think, therefore I am.

@PronatorTendon

4 ай бұрын

​@@Obscurai That's the problem of hard solipsism

@dannygonzalez6548

4 ай бұрын

Derek is special.

@jetardeshna3449

4 ай бұрын

Absolutely, "You get to choose"

@Oneforall86

4 ай бұрын

Oh boy, cue the free will debates in 3, 2, 1…

This vdo is gold .. subscribed

One of the best videos made by Veritasium. Thanks

the fact that this kind of information is available for free is the best gift a person whose curiosity is high, thanks a lot

I don't comment on youtube videos even when they are really good , thought provoking or interesting. I simply experience and understand the whole premise of the video and that's it. I never really had a reason to comment. That holds true until today. I saw the title and thought its going to be a deep analysis of a maths game with really intriguing answers but was clearly overblown by how things got forward. The Game Theory on its own was really fascinating but the video and narration made it a lot better to understand and fully grasp the concept. And to mention, the video itself is exceptionally crafted. I was not getting obliterated by the thoughtful results during certain points in the video and a narration afterwards. Rather the results and answers of the game were gradually revealed to get a hold of the unexpected outcomes of each scenario. Thanks a lot to you and your entire team for making such videos

@d.rodriguez

2 ай бұрын

I love Veritassium, however this and String Theory are my favorite 2 videos.

Very well presented. Thank you.

Certainly one of the best videos i have come across on youtube tbh

There were a couple clips from a game show in the B-roll for this one, wanted to quickly mention that that show was actually pretty interesting. One guy tried a neat strategy, telling his opponent that he was going to defect, and asking the opponent to cooperate; after the show, they could meet and split the winnings. Surpassing the apparent single-instance prisoners dilemma by proposing cooperation on a meta-level.

@tosche774

4 ай бұрын

But how can he trust the opponent and know whether he will really split the winnings instead of dissappearing?

@ACmovieCO

4 ай бұрын

@@tosche774He doesn’t, but it’s at least better than the other option of guaranteeing nothing.

@ramonbrooker7700

4 ай бұрын

That sounds like collusion, pretend to play the game and set the price artificially. Curious how that would pan out against a larger group?

@transoxian

4 ай бұрын

yeah but in that instance there was aspect of direct communication, which is one of the main problems that prisoners dilemma could solve

@VanNguyenVNA

4 ай бұрын

I thought that way you can only split the 5 points, while if both cooperate from the beginning, each would have 3 points which sum up to 6?

This was excellent. Thank you. Helpful content. Something thoughtful

So in summary. The best strategy in the long run is acting in "reserved good faith", trusting that other players will cooperate until they don't, then retaliate with the goal to push them into cooperating again. Great video as always Derek. I wonder what results we can get from a multiplayer version of the prisoner's dilemma. With varying probabalistic attributes for each player that have an effect on the outcome. 🤔

@eugenetswong

4 ай бұрын

Excommunication from the group could help.

@MikkoRantalainen

4 ай бұрын

... and in addition, assume 10% change that any deceiving behavior is a misunderstanding.

@SusannaSaunders

4 ай бұрын

Dah... You haven't figured out that the world is just exactly that program running, and you are one of the elements in the program?

@AhmadLad

4 ай бұрын

@@SusannaSaunders The world a massive computer built to calculate the ultimate question of life, the universe and everything. We're all just a part of its computation matrix.

@bunk95

4 ай бұрын

You did t learn how to make and keep human slaves marketed as citizens? A cooperative slave or one who’s tortured into appearing cooperative?

One of the most important YT videos published. Thank you.

What a mind blowing video 🤳 Thank you Sir for this great educational Content 🙏