40 years engineering in big auto ICE, 20 years following EV development. Never thought Id see the day EVs would be allowed to reach their full potential let alone get a deep dive into the engineering. Thanks to Tesla for leading the vanguard and to Munro for letting us in on the detail. Done with skill full genuine enthusiasm transmitted on this brilliant channel, just the best 30 minutes.

@GROND15

2 жыл бұрын

1000%

@Dive-Bar-Casanova

2 жыл бұрын

15 years ago I had a RAV EV. Everything that was bad about EV's back then was solved by Tesla. Features and devices and specs. Tesla made it practical, eventually no doubt, will make it affordable.

@d2cheung

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you for your service!

@safetyforemost

2 жыл бұрын

Well said

@j.m.5995

2 жыл бұрын

The History of electric motors is just as extensive as that of the ICE if not more so

Rotor is wrapped under high tension, you can't just slide a sleeve over after the fact. You also have no need for multiple directions because 99% of the load is hoop stress from centrifugal forces. Knitting it would actually just make it weaker because the threads would have sharp bends in them.

@JigilJigil

2 жыл бұрын

I think Elon Musk explained it some time ago how complicated it was for them to make those fibers wrapped and how their engineering team came up with a unique method to do it in house.

@johntheux9238

2 жыл бұрын

You can heat the winding up and use thermal expansion to do the job. But I don't think epoxy can survive high temperatures.

@cstalt

2 жыл бұрын

Exactly. Can't slide it over because it's under extremely high tension. The whole point is to keep the motor from tearing itself apart at very high RPMs.

@Stefan_Dahn

2 жыл бұрын

@@johntheux9238 You could alternetively shrink the inside with liquid nitrogen and slide it in then.

@klankowski

2 жыл бұрын

IM7 on a filament winding stand.

The carbon fiber layer is wound extremely tightly to prevent expansion at 20,000rpm. Sandy's recommended method would not provide the pre-load compression that is needed to maintain tolerance.

@nilsfrederking62

2 жыл бұрын

Actually it is wound under high tension, Tesla developed machinery in-house only for this process. And yes, the unidirectional winding serves the purpose to counteract centrifuge forces the best.

@oisiaa

2 жыл бұрын

@@nilsfrederking62 Isn't that what I said?

@Doctorbasss

2 жыл бұрын

exactly!.

@dmatscheko

2 жыл бұрын

True. Additionally, since the carbon windings are there to stop the rotor from expanding outwards, they don't need to provide any sideways strength. So any sideways weaving would only be dead weight. And any sideways weaving of the fibers equates to tiny bends, which would weaken the material.

@qpn6ph9q

2 жыл бұрын

I was quite frankly astounded that Sandy made a recommendation like this without researching the deep physics behind why the carbon fiber wrap. Quite an uncharacteristically flippant comment from him.

always smile when Sandy is happy about the engineering.

@ehleste

2 жыл бұрын

True

@irri4662

2 жыл бұрын

Yep me too

@Professor-Scientist

Жыл бұрын

I think I deserve a bit of respect don't you think?

Am I the only one already fired up for the Cybertruck series? Thanks Munro, appreciate all your team does for the community!

@GROND15

2 жыл бұрын

Dillon, Seriously? There are at least a million of us that are fired up for the Cybertruck. 😃

@Dive-Bar-Casanova

2 жыл бұрын

I like the traditional design of the Ford and the Base Silverado. Stuck in my ways.

@GROND15

2 жыл бұрын

@@Dive-Bar-Casanova there’s room for everyone. My son would say “you do you”. I prefer “ to thine own self be true”. Cheers.

@mini2nut67

2 жыл бұрын

I can’t wait to see the unconventional Cybertruck torn down to it’s bare exoskeleton. It will fascinating to learn about the design, manufacturing techniques and materials used in the construction. Bring on the Cybertruck!

@alexmanojlovic768

Жыл бұрын

@@Dive-Bar-Casanova You like the planned obsolescence & inability to get usable parts from a scrappers, because the mountings are different between model years?... Or the electrical plug shape & pinouts using the exact same wires?... 🤦🏻

THIS IS THE ONE BOYS AND GIRLS. THANK YOU SANDY!

best series on youtube atm

Rotor magnet skewing is nothing to do with physical torque pulsations that you can feel, because of the high effective rotor inertia and the high gear ratio between the rotor and the wheels, meaning the pulses, should they occur, happen far too rapidly to build into physical oscilationjs / vibrations. What the skewing actually does is make the backEMF of the machine more sinusoidal, meaning the 5th and 7th harmonic of the fundamental drive frequency is a lower magnitude. If you drive the machine with basic FOC, then the output votlage waveform is sinusiodal, but the backEMF is a modified sine (with the 5th & 7th harmonic components as mentioned) which causes a current ripple. That current ripple not only reduces motor and inverter efficiency, causes a high frequency EMC emissions, cause perturbations in the FOC current control, but also prevent one from running as close as possible to the average power switch current limit (because the peaks would cross the limit when they occur). This is especially an issue with very low inductance machines, ie high power / hgh speeds ones of course. What Tesla maybe doing is running with an active "feedforward" 5th and 7th harmonic cancelling voltage waveform, rather than relying on the axis current control to simply attempt to follow the backEMF. In effect, the inverter is actually now putting out a non-sinusoidal voltage waveform to match the non-sinusoidal waveform of machine! Do this, right, and you get higher efficiency, more power, and can run closer to the utlimate limits of the system, and you can run with a significantly stiffer current control loop too. The downside is your fundamental switching frequency needs to be high enough to be able to accurately synthesize this higher frequency voltage waveform, which requires faster and harder switching of your power elements, and a faster control loop to generate that waveform.

@Timo-qb1gf

2 жыл бұрын

Do you think they use SiC inverters for that?

@GROND15

2 жыл бұрын

Another bonus of watching Munro vids. There are intelligent viewers watching and willing to shed additional light on things. Thank you. Honestly, I only understood the basic gist of your explanation, being a thumb smasher with only a bachelor's degree in "alternative" engineering.

@swhbpocl

2 жыл бұрын

Agree

@bob15479

2 жыл бұрын

You absolutely can feel cogging of electric motors in EVs that aren’t designed to avoid it. (At low speeds) the host of out of spec motoring points this out all the time. I’m not qualified to disagree with or confirm anything else you said though. Sounds legit.

@grahammonk8013

2 жыл бұрын

Wouldn't this mean the inverters are actually different than a model 3 version though?

On the carbon fiber winding, as close to radial as possible is the best. The filament winding industry calls this a “hoop” wind. With wet, or prepreg winding, the flow of the resin allows the individual fibers to nest into the previous layer’s surface. This makes the composite load up in unison as the rotor spins up. Using a woven “sock” will not match the efficiency of the hoop wound sleeve. As the woven fibers cross each other, the fiber is bent, or kinked, as it crosses every opposite angled fiber.

@danapeck5382

2 жыл бұрын

thanks, fascinating

@ronblack7870

2 жыл бұрын

and a woven design might cut itself where the fibers cross. when pneumatic tires were invented they tried woven reinforcement. the tires kept blowing in 50 miles. they found the cords were cutting themselves where they cross. no tire has woven cords . each layer is parallel cords. granted in this rotor that may not happen but non 90 degree cords don't increase the strength and do prevent nesting.

@khoantum

2 жыл бұрын

Sandy responded to you kzread.info/dash/bejne/gKd-ya5yfbbVeaQ.html :D

@tonyblighe5696

Жыл бұрын

@@ronblack7870 Is that the difference between old-style "crossply" tyres and "radials"?

@alexmanojlovic768

Жыл бұрын

Extra info! 👍

placing that converter had such a satisfying and consistent "clunk " when inserted to the various models.

@markplott4820

2 жыл бұрын

All of the LEGACY OEM EV are CLUNKY......LOL

@-LightningRod-

2 жыл бұрын

@@markplott4820 yes mark, ...they are all "clunk'

@jacobstewart1155

2 жыл бұрын

Inverter*?

@-LightningRod-

2 жыл бұрын

@@jacobstewart1155 "inverter", i lijke smrt people

@davidhumeston5292

2 жыл бұрын

I was totally impressed the circuit board was made to fit the housing. You got to love vertical integration. Well thought out engineering very refreshing.

The carbon wrapped stator comes from rockets, let me explain. In rockets we use carbon over pressure vessels to make tanks, these are thin metal tank that are wrapped with thin strip of carbon fibre, these can take pressures of 5000 psi. With the magnets in the motors trying to push away from each other using carbon fibre wrap makes sense so you can hold in the magnets even tighter. If you use a woven cloth then the seem becomes a weak point of failure which would cause the motor to explode, wrapping is the olny way they could do it.

@themountainsbros381

2 жыл бұрын

You are right, from an industrial standpoint UD fiber is also cheaper and strips can be laid down robotically

@winksaville

2 жыл бұрын

I might be mistaken, but I believe the woven tube Sandy was talking about would have no seam. But, in my opinion, Sandy is incorrect and as mentioned in another post, the winding will be stronger.

@donjones4719

2 жыл бұрын

Came from rockets, that came from... old steam cars. I recall at least one had its boiler wrapped in piano wire to enable it to hold a higher pressure.

@TheEvilmooseofdoom

2 жыл бұрын

I believe COPV's were initially designed for fire fighters.

@mr-huggy

2 жыл бұрын

@@winksaville The carbon needs to be wrapped under tension. The carbon itself is laid out on the tank in a criss cross pattern so it is very much like a woven cloth. have a look for "Making COPV" on youtube and you will see how it's done.

Without Munro we wouldn't have this much details explain...!! Kudos man

@AudiTTQuattro2003

2 жыл бұрын

Weber University videos are another good source.

Sandy, the tolerances are too tight to be able to slide over a carbon overwrap knitted. That's why it has to be applied directly to the spool under tension. Especially as the shaft expands and contracts under load and heat.

@edwardhart7252

2 жыл бұрын

Correct. The fibers are wound under extreme tension. A cross-fiber knit would relax and not give the needed tension to keep the rotor from expanding at very high speeds.

@bobsbeard3977

2 жыл бұрын

@@edwardhart7252 exactly, because copper and carbon fiber have different rates of thermal expansion.

@brianb-p6586

2 жыл бұрын

@@bobsbeard3977 There's no copper in the rotor. Yes, Musk talked about copper in a video about the rotor wrap, but he often doesn't know what he's talking about.

@16:15 a woven fabric doesn't make sense; the uni directional fibers are keeping it from expanding radially. they only need tension around the circumference, there's no bending forces on the rotor, nor any axial loads.

Great job Ben. You've quickly become relaxed on camera.

@jaym7494

2 жыл бұрын

Ben Stein

his first walk thru with inverter seems so obvious, BUT gm ford and VW still don't get it. They seem to want to redesign everything every chance they get. 2 minutes in and its the same answer - buy more Tesla Stock.

@markplott4820

2 жыл бұрын

VW and others don't even make their own motors......lol.

I'm so glad that Sandy and co could hangout with Tesla and SpaceX! I think that helps show Sandy how serious Elon is.... no other CEO is in the ballpark....

About the carbon fiber: the only meaningful stress is hoop stress, so wouldn't having a unidirectional wrap be the strongest solution?

@BillboVonPonce

2 жыл бұрын

Could you elaborate on that question? I think I see what you are saying. I'm not a material scientist tho

@Global_Optimization

2 жыл бұрын

@@BillboVonPonce Sandy said they should use a woven wrap. Carbon fibers are only strong in tension. Woven wrap means it would be thicker and use more material but would be strong in both directions. However, this would make no sense here because the stress is only in one direction; the motor rotation is basically stretching outward at high speed. So Tesla's approach of just wrapping the fibers in this direction is better.

@SkyRiver1

2 жыл бұрын

yes

@MrJonathanm50

2 жыл бұрын

Back in my boat design days....we used kevlar (aramid) for tensile strength and found carbon worked better than kevlar under compression.....

Sandy - This is one of your greatest engineering videos. You and your company are just incredible!

@MunroLive

2 жыл бұрын

Wow, thank you!

@buzzofftoxicblog791

2 жыл бұрын

Agree this is a mile stone in history 👍 👏 wow

@richl1949

Жыл бұрын

Come on Sandy, how about some 3D electromagnetics to show what that gaps between the ends of the T-caps and star points are doing to the flux?

“Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic "

@AndyZach

2 жыл бұрын

Yay, Arthur C. Clarke!

@mawago1

2 жыл бұрын

めっちゃ👍言葉

@brianb-p6586

2 жыл бұрын

And more specifically, it looks like magic to the people who don't understand it.

"For those who are not engineers, THIS is good engineering".

@ryannguyen7466

2 жыл бұрын

The idea that parts are standardize is already a good thing for car fixing and modding enthusiate out there. Imagine down the line, you can buy a regular model 3 and buy a few piece of hardware for the motor to mod it into a Plaid? Or just buy individual parts and assemble a Tesla of your choosing like building a gaming computer? Damn.

@Miata822

2 жыл бұрын

Yes, designing universal assemblies that can be used in a variety of applications is customary practice in automotive engineering and elsewhere. Sandy usually disparages "parts bin" parts, but not when Tesla makes them. Having several versions of a board that are all labeled the same does seem highly questionable though.

@franciscoshi1968

2 жыл бұрын

You should see industrial inverters. In some models that have been using the same boards for everything from the smallest inverters to the biggest and have not changed anything for many years. They are very well understood so there is not much that you can improve other than getting better power switches. The other benefit of the warped rotor is that they get a stronger magnetic field from the same magnet by not having the steel that holds the small sections shorting the marketing field. The carbon wrap looks cool but there are better ways to achieve the same effect. The carbon wrap is also making the rotor less effecient by increasing the airgap between the rotor and the stator as carbon fibre is not magnetic.

@emdxemdx

2 жыл бұрын

I’m not an engineer, but I sure did not need Sandy telling me that to know it is good engineering…

@davidhumeston5292

2 жыл бұрын

@@Miata822 when Sandy refers to parts Bens.. He's referring to engineering around what's available. That's bad engineering. But to design something from the beginning to fit all models is great engineering. And for GM and Ford to use existing ice parts to build a super lightweight, efficient electric car it's a different animal.

I believe that explosive disconnect was a lot more impressive than you may have realized as it happened way too fast to appreciate fully. If you pause the video at 24:39 and then move though it frame by frame, then the explosion was bight and visible in exactly three frames. If you are working with a computer keyboard you can go forward or backward one frame at a time. After you pause a video, pressing the PERIOD key moves the video forward one frame at a time and the COMMA key moves it backward one frame at a time.

@richl1949

Жыл бұрын

Sure slowmo of explosives is always interesting, but what about why?? Seems to be a way "someone" can take control and bring your car to a stop at command. Please take the remote off switch out.

@ryuuguu01

Жыл бұрын

I did the frame-by-frame view (Thanks for the instructions) and count it as two frames with the explosion in them. Also when I kept advancing to watch the debris flying I notice that the frames come in identical pairs. So in postprocessing editing, the software doubled the number of frames to get the frame rate desired for uploading to KZread. This means the explosion was only a single frame in the original video.

@deanrhodenizer938

Жыл бұрын

@@ryuuguu01 Thank you. Good to get input from someone knowledgable in video processing. Based on your more critical look at these frames it seems like the event was only really captured on just one frame - so lucky it was caught at all. It seems like the event was even quicker than I was led to believe.

@daveriley6310

Жыл бұрын

On my MacBook, the flash occurs at 24:33 (24:33.53, actually, at an apparent 30 fps). It was visible in one frame only. Then in the replay, at 24:40.33 for two frames, still at 30 fps.

@SOMEONE-ME

Жыл бұрын

@@ryuuguu01 Next time rent a high speed Phantom camera which can shoot at thousands of fps. Then it may be more interesting to watch :)

17:30 Looks like Tesla is the new Sheriff in town 😉

@vidznstuff1

2 жыл бұрын

Not really. There's nothing new here

@MarkLLawrence

2 жыл бұрын

@@vidznstuff1 No, lol. Looks like a six pointed Sheriff's badge 😉

What I like about Munro is someone walking in on 6:35 he sees the camera and just smiles :)

Guys HANDS DOWN... this is just incredible explanation and a good insight attention to details

@MunroLive

Жыл бұрын

Thank you!

Pyro fuse on 2 motor phases is to avoid wheel lockup when the inverter fails catastrophically. On a standard vehicle, it would lockup 2 front, or 2 rear wheels symmetrically, but on the plaid it would lockup a single wheel, and send the car in a violent spin.

That inverter Phase bus bar pyro is VERY clever! It enables one to have a completely fail safe mode for a permanent magnet machine in the event of a loss of field control in the field weakening region (un-controlled regen ). It also cleverly uses HRC rated fuses to provide the final arc quenching, otherwise without those the severed section of bus bar would just arc across once opened by the pyro!

@w0ttheh3ll

2 жыл бұрын

I don't quite get how that works. Does current flow only through the thin parts of the bars that are sheared off? If so, why are the bus bars so huge?

@davidhumeston5292

2 жыл бұрын

Yes I agree That's an excellent way of assuring safety with a permanent magnet motor capable of creating so much current... You can tell Tesla's big brother's SpaceX.

@paulaxford6754

2 жыл бұрын

I was a bit surprised that they didn't secure the lugs as they would be in the assembly so that the pyro sees the stiffness it was designed to interact with.

@AndrewMerts

2 жыл бұрын

@@w0ttheh3ll A large part of it goes through the thin part that gets sheared off with some going through the outer part that's left intact. That thin section is generating significantly more heat than the rest of the bus bar but it's solid copper directly attached to it so the heat is dissipated in the cooler parts of the rest of the bus bar. It's only necked down for a very short distance so the total resistance from the inverter to the windings is only negligibly more. The very clever part is how they shear it quickly enough to get it completely disconnected before the fuse for the outer part blows which is what actually disconnects power. High power fuses are a challenge to design and build because once there is an arc in air you only need a threshold amount of current to sustain the arc. DC applications are even more challenging because with AC you'll naturally pass through 0 amps 120 times a second for 60 Hz power which makes it much more likely to quench an arc. Inside the fuse you'll have stuff like the fuse wire being spiral wound to increase the length and it'll be filled with sand to help quench the arc and keep the energy released from just bursting the fuse apart like a tiny explosion. By having the split bus bar they can use a fuse that doesn't need to carry large amounts of current, just be able to quench a dead short from 800V to ground at high fault currents. That's a lot easier to do when you only need to carry 50A during normal operation and 10kA in a fault. So long as the pyro can sever the normal current path before the fuse blows then you're not dealing with trying to quench that high power arc in open air or with a very large expensive fuse.

@w0ttheh3ll

2 жыл бұрын

@@AndrewMerts Thanks for the explanation. So they can get away with a much smaller fuse because in normal operation, most of the current bypasses this fuse anyway?

There was a lot of talking about quality issues in the past - mainly about aesthetic ones - but when you look at the quality of the components and manufacturing methods used Tesla tends much more to the higher end than other EV manufacturers. And of course the "symphony" of arranging the components is of the highest quality :-)

@AudiTTQuattro2003

2 жыл бұрын

...which of coarse was the irony of poor fit, finish and paint on the early production runs. Fortunately, the Tesla owners for the most part, overlooked these faux law and loved the product anyway.

@archigoel

2 жыл бұрын

Yup, when people say Tesla has "poor build" it makes me angry. This is Ferrari was in its early days, cutting edge eng and motor design, but average 'body design'.

@WEZ4136

2 жыл бұрын

@@archigoel the difference being Tesla look and listen to issues, Ferrari didn’t, not even when Mr. Lamborghini had a simple solution for Ferrari’s poor clutch wear. Tesla definitely look to innovate on the basis of improvement rather than aesthetics. You know it’s a very good product when Sandy is so impressed he’s momentarily speechless 😂

@wtmayhew

2 жыл бұрын

At least visually, the build quality and engineering of Tesla’s running gear seems to be world class. Personally, I believe there is room for better quality of Tesla’s coachwork. If I had to pick one to have more refined engineering than the other, it would be the running gear, of course.

@blackf1ng3r62

2 жыл бұрын

@@WEZ4136 - it's such a shock when people LISTEN ! They're not deaf at Tesla .

Just watching this entire series from the time Sandy came on the scene has made me "engineering adjacent" so when I saw the inverter that could be put on there other vehicles I knew it was good engineering before Sandy said. You start to get a feel for it and it is NEVER BORING. Thanks so much for doing this, it's a lot of fun and I hope it will spark people going to school or looking to do something new to go into this field.

This is the big one!!! Can't wait to watch!

Fascinating the kinds of innovations Tesla has made in only a short period of time.

@johnmqueripel2367

2 жыл бұрын

fascinating why legacy auto with all those years of experience hasn't.

@paulmichaelfreedman8334

2 жыл бұрын

It's more like they took existing technology and maxxed it out unlike anyone or few ever did before.

@BrowncoatFairy

2 жыл бұрын

I just think back to 80s and 90s, when GM, Ford, and Chrysler would use the same inefficient, poorly-engineered drivetrain for a decade or more with practically no changes, to the point where new model years were purely cosmetic at best. Then here we have Tesla making radical improvements in countless areas on almost a monthly basis. They ditched the "Model Year" revision system and are innovating at warp speed.

@paulmichaelfreedman8334

2 жыл бұрын

@@BrowncoatFairy Tesla's models haven't changed much the last ten years, either. Just some cosmetics, massive software updates, and progressively higher capacity battery until 100 kWh.

@mnml2006

2 жыл бұрын

@@paulmichaelfreedman8334 Didn't they introduce things like Superbottle and Octovalve midstream? Heat pump? Wiring improvements? And they apparently substituted all kinds of chips to work around recent shortages.

Munro! Always on the cutting edge of information! Kudos!

@ahkarsmith4691

2 жыл бұрын

I’m 80, when I was a kid, 1955 ish, my dad talked about the “ built in obsolescence in cars of the era”. The legacy auto makers are dragged, kicking and screaming attempting

@ahkarsmith4691

2 жыл бұрын

Contd. attempting to hold onto short term profits. GM, Ford, VW, et al. , are the modern day Luddites.

Remember , mr munroe they wind the carbon under tension , a sleeve would be hard to tension

Haha the board for a sec looked like United States map

@rogerstarkey5390

2 жыл бұрын

I thought it was just me ! (So much for Florida!)

The carbon fiber overlap is wound under high tension to take stress off of the internal structure at high RPM. This is not easily achieved in biaxial or knitted sleeves. The CF overwrap also allows discontinuities in the magnet structure. Typically, the laminate has to hold everything together and that causes magnetic "short circuits" which reduce the available flux between the rotor and stator. B.T.W. "Tesla" is a unit of measure of magnetic field strength or flux density. It is only appropriate that their magnetic structures are strong!

@michaelsimmons6835

2 жыл бұрын

This is the way

Elon said the carbon sleeve has to be precisely woven ontop of the motor can’t be too lose or to tight. So I don’t think sandy’s idea would work, if I understood Sandy correctly

@brianb-p6586

2 жыл бұрын

It wouldn't work for lots of reasons.

@emauf

Жыл бұрын

If Sandy's idea has a seam, it could create a weak point.

To this day it just amazes me how Tesla engineering can be so superior to Ford and GM. I know people that work at Ford in Dearborn and GM in Toledo, and they still think and talk about Tesla like its not going to make it and that Ford and GM will catch up shortly. Great Video as always thank you both.

@icedout2322

2 жыл бұрын

I spoke to a salesman at the old dodge dealer during the 08 recession and all the dealerships were closing. He didnt think they would close any dealerships either. The thing is denial is a really good way to cope with something that you cant stop and is about to put you out of a job, UNTIL your looking for a new one.

@FrunkensteinVonZipperneck

2 жыл бұрын

"think and talk" like you are winning, while ignoring evidence of failing defines American boys' math self concept: "I'm great at math! I won't do any math work (since it would reveal my low ability), but if I did do math, I'd be the best" My creators' research on failure-ignoring, math self-concept uncovers ego-protective thinking strategies that guarantee failure. "Boys" won't do math, so they can't.

@carholic-sz3qv

2 жыл бұрын

Superior! Lol….. yet a tesla can’t even tow!!!! Stfu!!!!

@airheart1

2 жыл бұрын

@@carholic-sz3qv They can't? kzread.info/dash/bejne/hIaWyaWhmK2sc9Y.html kzread.info/dash/bejne/dG2q2ZSBXZvAgZc.html kzread.info/dash/bejne/nJyMlaSmmK2-k5s.html There are a few dozen other videos that say you're an idiot who doesn't know wtf you're talking about bruh.. should try this little thing called google before you spout nonsense in a public place.

@jstravelers4094

2 жыл бұрын

@@airheart1 That was awesome! Thank you. And, what a way to shut a brainwashed troll up.

I am an engineer ind the electronic industry (also worked in foundries, metal sheets etc.) for 20 years and a great fan of lean manufacturing - and I have to say that it is a great joy listen to you. Your are true experts with deep technical unterstanding. Bravo!

I think they got rid of the pulse with better control of the current with the inverter. The pulse is the action of the lines of rotor with those on the stator, if you control the current at the right time you can probably negate the pulse, a bit like they do with active noise cancellation. By getting rid of the source of the noise/vibration they probably get even more efficiency as they don’t need to offset the laminate anymore and they save money and complexity on the assembly line, genius!

@dougtruesdell9937

2 жыл бұрын

A motor with clean sinusoidal three phase power has no pulsing. The power from each phase rises and falls with the voltage of each phase, but the sum of the three add up the same total power at every angle. Three phase generators in power stations are analogous - they don't pulse either. This is a property of three phase power.

@alexforget

2 жыл бұрын

@@dougtruesdell9937 Yes, but the armature is not, the discrete transition from metal to air gap in the stator interacting with the magnets in the stator will produce a ripple. I assumed that this was the cause of noise in EV motors as they probably all use high frequency PWM excitation in a sinusoidal pattern.

@geoffdmytruk6604

2 жыл бұрын

They also increased the gear ratio meaning the pulsing would increase. I wonder if the high frequency helps? Also the dual rear motors could have a slight phase shift between them. That might help cancel the pulsing and smooth out the current draw

@davidhumeston5292

2 жыл бұрын

Dang you some smart boys... Pretty cool 😎 Very intelligent people in these comments. Thanks for taking your time to comment.. Greatly appreciate it.

Thank you. I do think that Tesla has the wrapping part down well under control.

The strength of the rotor carbon fiber does not need to be lateral. Using fiber spool winding is the correct solution.

Two thoughts about the small laminations that are inserted between the magnets and the air gap: 1. Their main function is not to keep the magnets in place but to conduct magnetic flux. If you were to swap them out for something the same shape but of a non-magnetic material, the motor would lose most of its torque. 2. All of the small laminations have a hole in them. As this doesn't help conduct magnetic flux, my bet is that these are there to stick little pins through to hold them in place during the winding process. The processes would be in this order: Insert little laminations as well as rotor + magnets on a fixture --> have all the outer parts of the fixture (pins holding little laminations) move radially inwards so the little laminations touch the magnets --> put this whole fixture with all the parts onto the winding machine.

Nice breakdown and comparisons, beautiful engineering from Tesla and great analysis by Munro and associates.

I disagree with Munro about the winding of carbon fibers. They are in the axis that matter, resisting centrifugal forces of the spinning rotor. Other direction would be wasted fibers. Furthermore, by winding the fibers they get pre-loaded and that way the rotor will withstand a lot of force before stretching out, while a jacket put on top will first stretch and then retain the magnet (maybe they could do a preloding by super cooling the rotor before insertion of the jacket ?)

@_PatrickO

2 жыл бұрын

You cannot disagree with an off the cuff first impression. Sandy is not saying anything that is set in stone, he is giving his real first impressions and that is why this channel is so good. It is sad to see these "ackchyually" posts. Maybe one of you read an electrek article on the carbon wrapped motor, but the bulk of these comments are just vapid people acting "smart" after reading someone else's comment and rewriting it. You wouldn't even know what you were looking at if a few people did not write non-technical articles on the carbon wrapped feature.

15:10 Wow, straight poles. This type of magnet configuration enables higher BEMF and torque output. Skewing the magnet poles (whether on rotor or stator) is only to reduce the resonance, but it also reduces torque output. The pulsing/jittering can become a problem, but because it is spinning so fast, those spikes will be perceived by our biological sensors as a "HUMMM" in RMS (root mean square). If it is spinning slowly, I'm sure they are close looping with field oriented controls.

@donjones4719

2 жыл бұрын

"close looping with field oriented controls" Does this involve using sophisticated software? That was my guess, Tesla is so good at using software to solve what used to be hardware problems.

@Timo-qb1gf

2 жыл бұрын

Do they have SiC inverters to enable some faster modulation strategies?

@Global_Optimization

2 жыл бұрын

@Olaf Willocx The magnets in the rotor are being pulled along by the changing electric field inside the motor. Peak torque happens when the magnet is perfectly positioned to stay synchronized with the wave. Slightly offsetting the magnets reduces problems with harmonics by making each magnet a little bit out of phase with the field, but also makes for less torque. Tesla apparently solved the harmonics problems, so now they can have all the magnets aligned and thus squeeze out maximum torque and power.

@kevin42

2 жыл бұрын

They've been using FOC ESC's since the model 3. With motor being sensored, ofc.

@derpamine

2 жыл бұрын

@Olaf Willocx Saxon Lea is correct.

If I had a time machine, I would set the controls for an in person engineering / management discussion with Dr. Deming and our Sandy Monroe. Thanks for being you Sandy!

New game! You drink every time Sandy says “I’ve never seen anything quite like this”

As I remember Elon Musk described that the carbon sleeve requires certain tension to keep the rotor intact but not break the carbon fiber. The prefabricated sleeve might not work.

@gregbailey45

2 жыл бұрын

Pretty sure it WOULD NOT work!

@rickrack78

2 жыл бұрын

The only other way I have seen carbon sleeves applied is by press fitting with tapered rotors and sleeves. The sleeve was instrumented with strain gages. Then, the sleeve was pressed onto the rotor until the preload, indicated by the strain gage readings, was achieved. The sleeve was then trimmed to length on the rotor. The most effective high tension winding, that I have been part of, used high melt point thermoplastics as the resin/binder. This allowed the successive layers to be wound under high tension without displacing the underlying layers. Varying the tension as the sleeve builds thickness keeps the fiber radial stress equal so no layer loads up before another. Layers not sharing the load equally will result in sequential failure, like the trick used to tearing a phone book in half.

@CookiePepper

2 жыл бұрын

Total centrifugal force @ 16,000 rpm, r = 10cm (4 inches), 500g of magnet is 140t.

The tight winding puts the force on the carbon fiber not the epoxy to hold it. 787 fuselage is made in a similar way.

@rogerstarkey5390

2 жыл бұрын

Guess who worked on the 787?

@paulmichaelfreedman8334

2 жыл бұрын

@@rogerstarkey5390 Boeing? 😁

That was eye-opening as per usual. Of course, we were all waiting for the magnetic tricks in the rotor, and it didn't disappoint. But actually, what got to me first was the overall quality of the motor engineering. The castings, the finish on the bearing housings, the gears, the tolerances, it was all top notch quality and pushing the established boundaries.

@johnmqueripel2367

2 жыл бұрын

Which is why Tesla is leagues ahead of any legacy auto manufacturer. I guess you could say Tesl was rocket spec.

@AndyZach

2 жыл бұрын

Yes. If you change your mindset from engineering for autos to engineering for aerospace, then you can understand the gap. Tesla borrows the aerospace engineers from SpaceX and SpaceX borrows the manufacturing engineers from Tesla.

@markhooker8520

2 жыл бұрын

Agree 100%. These motors were designed for VERY long life.

Wow, 25% improvement in torque just with the new star shaped laminate. Carbon fiber wound wrap, and the strongest magnets they have tested. Unlike conventional car motors, there is no offset. I can see many competitors buying the full report on this part.

@carholic-sz3qv

2 жыл бұрын

Using more rare earths materials when other manufacturers are trying to use less of it lol…

@brianb-p6586

2 жыл бұрын

Why? The technology is all apparent in a single still image, and those competitors bought and tore down their own Plaids long ago.

@carholic-sz3qv

2 жыл бұрын

@@brianb-p6586 which “competitor bought and tored down the plaid!? No one! Stop lying.

@brianb-p6586

2 жыл бұрын

@@carholic-sz3qv You're kidding, right? The car is expensive, but not compared to automotive development budgets. Every manufacturer who is interested would have done this when the Plaid became available, without waiting for a crowdfunding campaign. And of course they don't advertise what they're doing. Tearing down competitor's vehicles has been normal practice for a long time, probably over a century.

@carholic-sz3qv

2 жыл бұрын

@@brianb-p6586 yeah lol….. what’s the point of your argument actually!? They can teardown competitors vehicles but they don’t have to. I’m actually way more interested in the future and other brands for example have been using recycled fibers/plastics and many other composite materials. If everyone including tesla also used recycled materials in their cars it could have been more appealing tbh!

I am surprised how much more strength they got of their magnets - the magnets are stronger - the rotor armature design make a stronger field - the rotor spin faster All together this will more than double the strength to weight ratio of the motor assembly and increase efficiency thus reducing the weight of the battery pack to get the same mileage. I hope their costing gets low enough to be able to put back all this tech into the model Y/3

@TheEvilmooseofdoom

2 жыл бұрын

Or the CT or semi too! :)

@allterrainrandy2587

2 жыл бұрын

I think the 3/Y performance is about to get a power boost. 670-800 hp? All it needs is the 2 long range motors.

@carholic-sz3qv

2 жыл бұрын

Which means they have surely used a lot more rare earths compared to other manufacturers. Why can’t they reduce their use of rare earths!?

@alexforget

2 жыл бұрын

@@carholic-sz3qv If 100g of rare earth save 50 Kg of battery and 2% of electricity at every charge for years that might be a good tradeoff. Those are all made up numbers, but what I mean is that they are tradeoffs and a few grams in a motor can have a big impact in other place. If the field is 2X stronger and the motor spin 2X faster, that mean 4X the power. That result in a 4X smaller motor and thus save weight, cost, battery size, and even rare earth. Elon talked about this phenomenon in a podcast about WW2. At some point the US made the spitfire 10% lighter with better quality aluminum, that mean they could also reduce the weight of wheels, the structure, the engine which resulted in additional performance and weight reduction. It’s a virtuous cycle of improvement.

@carholic-sz3qv

2 жыл бұрын

@@alexforget unfortunately your point is totally wrong! 100g of rare earth doesn’t save 50kg or battery or any efficiency, the rare earths are used for more powerful magnets. Sandy showed the vw id.4 motor and said that It barely uses any rare earths. The efficiency is made in the whole car system from heat pumps to more aerodynamic shape…..

When you work with strong permanent magnets like this, you should get a set of titanium tools. This is common for the folks who work on MRI machines. Just a suggestion...

@martylawson1638

2 жыл бұрын

Could also get non-sparking bronze tools. might be a little cheaper and harder wearing.

THANKS4GIVING Another Engineering Symphony. KUDOS to the TESLA ENGINEERS and SUPPORTING TEAMS. These achievements are so dam exciting THE FUTURE UNFOLDS.

Another lesson in the fine art of education and entertainment for us who are inquisitive about the workings of new technology.

Also, woven, ie non-unidirectional Carbon Fibre rotor wrap is a lot WEAKER, than the filament winding that they are doing for magnet retention. This is because with a filament wind more of you material is in the axis of the load (all the load is directed radially outwards by centripetal accel, there is no axial load) and because you can much more easily wind a single filament under tension. Tensile filament winding means the magnets are PRELOADED in compression when the machine isn't spinning , and only cross over into tension at some speed, this offset effectively raises the peak speed capability of the rotor by the offset compressive load! It's critical to have the thiniest magnet retention system possible, because the CF wrap is effectively adding to the air gap and hence reducing machine performance. Having a filament wind means you can run with a higher fibre to adhesive ratio, for the thinest possible layer.

1:00 Hearing the emphasis and passion in @munro live voice gives me joy. I love engineering and this channel is one of the best. Much respect to Munro & the crew.

The first three minutes of this video says everything you need to know about Tesla. Thanks for pointing this important insight out.

'THE INVERTER'_____ I was on my head when l saw that move from motor to motor!

Has anyone noticed the inverter boards are roughly made in the shape of the continental USA?

@khonlieu6619

2 жыл бұрын

I was thinking that, too!

@aussie2uGA

2 жыл бұрын

Hmmm, and those laminates are in the shape of a star of david

@chargehanger

2 жыл бұрын

Shape is for function. Perhaps the USA's borders have been laid out for best inverter performance ?

LOL, I have to read all the comments because there is so much information in them that a layman(me) would not know. Amazing stuff, amazing channel

Mind blowing inverter compatibility.

Was going to order a laminate but $150 is too high of a price. I bought one from the Y teardown for $50 and that seemed more reasonable considering I wanted to support the channel.

Always awesome to watch you guys show how things work and how they’re made. I thought there was going to be a show and tell at the end of a new different way to wrap a stater

15:47 Tesla has invented some new physics 🤣

Thanks for showing us demonstrations alongside the explanations, I really enjoyed that!

Thank you again Sandy and crew!!!! Fascinating!

03:53 , beard guy expression says EVERYTHING abot the moustache guy's character. Priceless moment!!!

Pretty sure that the magnets are magnetic when they are installed. The process by which the magnets are magnetised would not work on the full assembly as the whole assembly would become one unified magnet; and that's assuming that you could create a pulse of that size, power and penetration.

@grahammonk8013

2 жыл бұрын

I don't know if they are or not, but I seem to remember when they took the model 3 motor apart, they made a point about how they had multiple pieces with alternating poles.

@rickrack78

2 жыл бұрын

In my experience, the magnets are magnetized prior to being installed on the rotor. Attaching them to a rotor be a hair raising experience! I have seen adhesives, bolts, or dovetail type joints used to hold magnets before installing a sleeve to contain them when the rotor is spun up

I was so ready for this one to be an hour

Great show, enjoyed the breakdown and seeing parts that are interchangeable

Exciting teardowns. Thx for that!

Tesla = Alien Technology 🔥🔥

Defeating the need for a differential by having individually controlled computerized motors powering each rear wheel is probably the most genius engineering decision I’ve ever seen. Tesla engineers are absolutely brilliant!

I am a Tool and Die Maker + Engineer When Sandy Monroe talk's you should Listen... OUTSTANDING...

love it. thank you, Sandy & Ben.

Outstanding videos! Can’t thank you guys enough for sharing your knowledge with the world!

How can humans come up with such incredible engineering when some others just want to destroy humanity? Amazing video! Thank You Munro!!

Love seeing such forward thinking engineering. Thanks for sharing!

This is such a well explained video. Thanks Sandy and crew.

I would gladly pay for a Plaid Model 3 if Tesla were to build it. It doesn't sound like an incredible amount of retooling would be necessary to make it happen. Plenty of people would pay the premium.

@BenefitOfTheDoubtInquiry

2 жыл бұрын

I dunno, with all that power, I feel that the adaptive suspension system in the S is needed to keep from flying off the road or breaking components.

@johncookiv1985

2 жыл бұрын

The dual rear motor assembly wouldn't fit in the 3/Y's footprint. They had to move the inverter to the side just to fit it between the S's wheels...

@omnicurious2949

2 жыл бұрын

You cannot just drop the high-powered motors into Model 3.....the entire power-electronics/battery-pack/frame/suspensions/wheels etc needs to be redesigned to handle the additional power (electrical & mechanical) and acceleration....which will push the vehicle to more or less Model S Plaid area.

@Robbie6298

2 жыл бұрын

You guys are missing the point. All they would have to do to make a model 3 plaid edition is to put the model S plaid rotor in the current stator change a few lines of code and you would have a 30 percent increase in rear motor power and no power dropoff at high speeds. It won't be as fast as a model S plaid but you would have a 10 second 1/4 mi sub 3 second 0-60 model 3. Marketed under the plaid badge.

@handlealreadytaken

2 жыл бұрын

@@Robbie6298 exactly. I’m not asking for a full tri motor setup but the rotor from the S and it’s there. Plus this is all going in the Roadster which is smaller than the 3, yet it will fit. Heck, use the space in the trunk under the floor if necessary.

9:34 Interesting how the shape of the inverter casting, being from a cross-section of the Model 3/Y motor housing, is now used in transverse section on the side of the Plaid motor housing, but the shape still fits the surrounding features.

Are we all missing the point that the carbon fibers also hold the magnets and keepers from flying out?

@paulaxford6754

2 жыл бұрын

No, not at all, it's required.

@brianb-p6586

2 жыл бұрын

No, many of us immediately understood that. It's obvious, so I can't explain why Sandy missed it. And the separate lamination sections are not "keepers", they're the critical pole face sections of the rotor.

What a privilege it is to get this kind of detailed breakdown of state of the art engines like this..

Sandy and team, it's too late for me (I'm 38), but I'd imagine these videos you guys have been putting out have inspired a lot of older kids/young adults in to want to pursue mechanical engineering and engineering in general and how exciting it can be.

@ProfessorDingus

2 жыл бұрын

Whether you think you can or you can't you're right.

@garywiseman5080

2 жыл бұрын

I know a number of great engineers who pursued degrees in their forties.

At 13:35 they said they were going to show us some kind of sneak peek about the stator at the end of the video, did I miss it?

@chargehanger

2 жыл бұрын

We all miss it.

Only 28 minutes!?!?!?! I'd like it to be at least 3 hours! Really, there is room for soooo much nerding here.

Just got my laminates signed by Sandy, thank you so much. I don’t want to say what I do for a living but this is very aligned with my job. The laminates are just a keepsake for me. I watch all your videos and hope to meet you and the team one day!

This motor explaination goes to show that just because you can dissassemble something does not mean you can explain why they did it that way. This is why you can duplicate it but not copy it. My company was famous for xray tube manufacture. They had the recipe (or so they thought). A lot of the senior staff retired and the output went to zero. They knew how make them, just lost the experience with the retired people. Many seniors got hired back.

soooo, does that mean that the Model 3 Performance could THEORETICALLY also get a carbon wrapped motor in the future? just imagine what an absolute BEAST of a car that would be for that price and size

@GreenDriveIndia

2 жыл бұрын

that wd increase price i guess

@Wiseguy3hh

2 жыл бұрын

@@GreenDriveIndia so the performance model then? 😁

@lemongavine

2 жыл бұрын

They can't make it faster than the flagship Model S. They should make a Model 3 with just the dual rear motors. It would have less power than the S, but would be an absolute RWD beast. How cool would that be?

@davidanalyst671

2 жыл бұрын

Tesla's not trying to make model 3's go faster, its the mass produced car. So they tryna make it amazing, but as cheap as possible.The only reason they would at carbon overwrap is if there was a case to make the motor last longer.

@timkeklinker

2 жыл бұрын

@@lemongavine imagine a model 3 with 295s in the back and two carbon wrapped motors JESUS CHRIST 😂

brilliant, thanks Munro team

Fantastically informative videos and comments below. Thank you Sandy.

blowing s*** up - what a job!

I wonder if Tesla engineers sit around and watch Sandy go through their work and drink every time Sandy says something positive about their work.

@AndyZach

2 жыл бұрын

I certainly would if I were a Tesla engineer.

Wonderful video, thanks Munroe and associates and thanks sabic!

G'Day from Australia. Thanks so much for doing the Rotor Laminate sale. I got mine in the mail already and very happy to have a small piece of history. Keep up the amazing work!

There is absolutely no way that legacy automakers can do engineering like this, if so they would have done so by now

@GROND15

2 жыл бұрын

Absolutely untrue. I know a few former Ford engineers. They now work for engineering firms that design things for the OEMs. It's not can't, it's won't. It's usually about $$$$ but sometimes it's ego.

@extendedepicmusic5017

2 жыл бұрын

@@GROND15 And that is the key, automotive engineering is what legacy automakers are doing. What you are looking at is Aerospace engineering

@TheEvilmooseofdoom

2 жыл бұрын

The engineering ability exists, it's the motivation that did not.

Love this channel! Sandy explains things so well, whats good and whats not - awesome.

@MunroLive

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks Stephen

fascinating. Thanks Sandy and team.

first 2 mins have brought tears of happiness to my eyes