So Stockfish was like: "Actually that doesn't work because of this. However, if you do this instead, it does work, so nice puzzle anyway, you just got the wrong solution."

@NotTured

Жыл бұрын

7:10 when you do that the rock would check the king after the king move to what ever you would simply eat the knight then if the king ate your rock then it would be a draw cuz you would also eat the rock :/

@viktorsmets29

Жыл бұрын

​@@NotTured No after Re1 Kf7 Rxe8 you don't take back, instead you play Rg6 and black can't avoid mate

@NotTured

Жыл бұрын

@@viktorsmets29 the rock is already at Rg6?

@NotTured

Жыл бұрын

​@@viktorsmets29 and even if you did Rg6 which is not possibe i will check you in RF8 you will be forced to eat my rock and ill eat your rock and cong its a drawn end game

@NotTured

Жыл бұрын

​@@viktorsmets29 i think i now know what you mean you mean Rg7 check then ill move my king to KH8 forced then you would do Rg6 right?

Stockfish out here delivering patch notes to old chess puzzles

@gregorymorse8423

7 ай бұрын

Actual the tablebase did as chess is solved for 8 or less pieces on the board.

Refutations of old puzzles are the best chess videos. Thanks for posting and please make more

@DeSlagen8

Жыл бұрын

Second this, Nelson

@vedranb87

Жыл бұрын

All those dead people who are suddenly wrong. :D

@lucianadiacipriani5220

8 ай бұрын

The chess study by Tigran Gorgiev had long been cooked. Every chess study composer knows that ...Nd7 draws. The computer finds something like that in a second.

Imagine if someone refuted these puzzles before stockfish was invented

@southerncharity7928

Жыл бұрын

Would have been convicted of sorcery

@lydiafromsemaphora

Жыл бұрын

imagine if they were refuted by an actual fish

@FasterBueno

Жыл бұрын

@@lydiafromsemaphora Specifically one that does stocks

@FasterBueno

Жыл бұрын

Someone actually made a stock fish, his channel is micheal reeves

@undine120

Жыл бұрын

I mean, the 7 piece endgame tablebase was computed in August 2012. Yes, Stockfish existed, but it didn't get it's first win as top computer until 2014. All 7 piece puzzles were either proved or refuted by then.

I found Nd7 because you said the move was crazy, I didn't know why Nd7 was good I just knew it was indeed crazy

@isahut1128

Жыл бұрын

Ye same

@mysticchromium4612

Жыл бұрын

yep

@janetzhou5549

Жыл бұрын

Me too

@ozzienemo

8 ай бұрын

i guessed goddamn rg4 cuz thats the most insane

@lschoi3173

7 ай бұрын

same+1

Stockfish doesn't ruin chess, it finds moves and lines that weren't expected.

@AwesomeCamera87_HD

Жыл бұрын

Thats why i am a fan of stockfish

@chunkyrabbit1032

Жыл бұрын

and it's a fish

@junyong0716

Жыл бұрын

yes, of course it doesnt ruin chess, but it ruined this particular chess puzzle.

@17813_

Жыл бұрын

You must be fun at parties

@hi-tale9645

Жыл бұрын

@@17813_ he's just stating facts accept or cope

You don't even need Stockfish for this one. There's only 7 pieces on the board, so it's a tablebase position, and the tablebase will tell you right away it's a win for White and tell you every winning move too.

@Jartran72

Жыл бұрын

this puzzle was probably made before computers

@KingOfLeeYT

Жыл бұрын

Puzzle was made in 1956 :/

@nm7sp

Жыл бұрын

Aaaah - so it's actually tablebases that are ruining chess puzzles , not Stockfish 🙂

@ReverseGuy

Жыл бұрын

🤓🤓

@StepanKolt

Жыл бұрын

That works only when you're not playing against Mittens

Actually, there are exactly 7 pieces in the board and we can use a tablebase. After Rg7+ Kh8, white has 3 winning moves: Ke7, Rg6, and Ke6. (+ Rg6 repeats the previous position, so white has to move the king)

@Snort70

Жыл бұрын

Idk why he keeps making these videos without looking more deeply into it

@Alpha-Zero

Жыл бұрын

How you can check tablebase data? Is it same as lichess stockfish server analysis?

@lenalittle4193

Жыл бұрын

@@Alpha-Zero Yes because Lichess have a tablebase too at the analysis board. The tablebase show you the moves for win, loss and draw. You don't have to activate stockfish for that.

@vedranb87

Жыл бұрын

I was thinking about the piece count and was like, hey, do we even need stockfish for this?

Not only Stockfish could find these other solutions. Looking at the 7 pieces Tablebase would have told us the same…….

Nd7 was actually quite intuitive once you mentioned the stalemating idea.

@mynameisplatypus5859

Жыл бұрын

Same reasoning

Beginning to feel sorry for the old masters. Computationally they didn't have the bandwidth to go through all permutations in one lifetime!

I did intuitively guess the knight to D7, based on what you said previously about taking away the pieces of black would lead to a draw. I didn't see it though of course, just since you asked that was the only move I could think would create a situation based on what you said previously

Normally I'd say "it's a win for the intended side, just not the intended way" is not really ruining a puzzle, but a pawn checkmate is pretty cool...

Thank you so much for the video. That was a really nice solution. I like how Stockfish finds these lines and moves that we didn't notice when originally looking at the puzzle.

Really happy that I found Ke7 at the beginning of the video lol. The whole video I was like "but what if you do Ke7 instead?? Pushing the pawn didn't seem best there..." and then you finally went back to that and I was like "yes!!!" haha

Stockfish gives a venomous sting to the puzzle, and stockfish gives the antidote.

I actually saw the move stockfish had for the right reason. Im proud of myself

This was very cool its so much fun to see a refutation and new solution

Thanks for this study by Gorgiev. It’s not just 2.Ke7 that wins but also 2.Ke6 or even 2.Rg6. So the problem is actually savagely dualised. If one uses Stockfish with 5 parallel searches, I suppose it will pick these up, but easier is to use a tablebase like Syzygy. Question really is how to fix it, if possible.

I actually saw the Rg7 Kh8 Ke7 line and assumed that was the intended solution. The mating pattern with the knight on f6 and the king on h8 is too strong to avoid, you have to sac the rook and rook + 1 vs knight in the corner is an easy win

I haven't played chess in 100 years and I was never more than average. But I love this channel! You really do a nice job at presenting these ideas.

always interesting to see the solutions to a problem

Saw knight to d7 the first time you showed the position and was like "thats what I would do, to force a draw"

I wasn't in the mood to really analyze today, but after you showed the difference between Ke6 and Ke7 (that white can reach the f8 square), Nd7 was the first move that came to my mind. So I found it, but didn't verify it as winning.

for once stockfish agrees with me, Ke7 make more sense then g6 Did not find Nd7 although it does make sense blocking the f8 square Great puzzle and good job stockfish.

The solution for stockfish after the position on 8:13 starts with Nxf6 (has to take because of the threat of Rg8#), then Rxf6 (If the pawn takes on F6 instead of the Rook, since your king is blocking the pawn and the pawn can't control the H6 or H7 squares, Black can more likely save, or at least prolong, the game by checking you with their rook and forcing your king to block the pawn, but if Rxf6, White wins faster). The black rook has to go to h1 to defend Rh6#, then you play Rf4 to keep threatening checkmate on H4 but giving your pawn and king more breathing room. If Rh7+, it's forced mate in 20, with a possible sequence being something like this: Kf8, Rook somewhere along the 7th rank, like Ra7, Rh4+, Rh7 is forced, Rxh7, Kxh7, Wkf7, Bkh8, Wkg6, Bkg8, Wkh6, Bkf7, g6+, Bkf8, Wkh7, Bke7, g7, Bkd6, g8=Q, Bkc5, Qb3, Bkd4, Wkg6, Bkc5, Wkf5, Bkd4, Qb4+, Bkd5, Wkf6, Bkc6, Wke6, Bkc7, Qb5, Bkc8, Wkd6, Bkd8, and finally Qd7 or Qb8 is mate.

Got a challenge for you. Pacifist chess. Can you beat Martin without ever capturing any pieces? (Not sure if you’ve done this, but sounds like it would be fun to watch)

I did see ... Nd7 but only after understanding white's ideas about getting to Kf8. I wouldn't have found that move otherwise. I did originally see Rg7+ Kh8, Ke7 because I felt the king needed to support the rook as the knight and pawn weren't able to do so, but I couldn't see the end of that line. This is probably why I'm still rank 900 and why I enjoy your puzzles and your other videos that help me see play evolutions.

i found the move cause i though "ok getting to that squares important, how can we block it" and the knight is what i saw first lol

I saw knight to d7 pretty fast when you asked for the move. Prior you showed that if black loses it's pieces it's a stalemate, so yeah, makes sense that getting rid of your pieces asap was the way to go.

Nice one! I was able to guess knight d7, because you showed lines where whites king wants to move to f8, and that blacks knight is untouchable because of the stalemate trap.

Even given that the author didn't see the refutation, I wonder how they concluded that the king move was not also winning (that one that we know was in fact the only winning move).

I found the king move instead of the main line at the start - lol. The smothered pawn mate was cool, though.

The only reason I found Nd7 was because I was just looking for the most ridiculous move. Lol😂

@fahimhoq3166

7 ай бұрын

😂

Composer🕵️: Hey everyone! Look at this chess puzzle I made! It is white to play and win and ends up having a "smothered mate" using a pawn♟️ **Stockfish joined the game* Stockfish🐟: You sure about that? Checkout this knight🐎 sacrifice to draw the game. Composer🕵️: Oh-- **sad noises* Stockfish🐟: Don't worry, there is another move for white to win the game, just use and move the king🤴 already closer to the black's. Composer🕵️: --oh ok

@JustAPokemonCommentingOnVideos

Жыл бұрын

this pesky fish is so smart lol

Composer: take that I win Stockfish: Yes, but actually NO

I found the move that draws the game but I only saw the idea of taking away the f8 square for the King and to lure the King away

I love it when the moves I think about are the correct answer, when the composer had an entire other solution.

1:14 actually an easier thing for white would have been trying the Arabian Mate. Nf6 and Rg8 would have been mate, if we protected the rook with the king

Puzzle author: What do you think of my super challenging puzzle? Stockfish: Your solution is wrong.

Stockfish: Your solution is wrong, but you can still win it.

2. (g6 Nb6+ 3. Ke7 Nd5+ 4. Kf7 Nf6 5. Rg8+) mate in 4 for white

I thought of king e7 already before pawn g6, feeling like we should move the king to safety from opponent's knight and protect own rook for checkmating. I didn't think of anything else further though.

@aphschl4347

Жыл бұрын

The puzzle and the refutation are both amazing but I did want to note that he didn't explain that after Ke7 Re1+ Kf7 he did not comment on Rxe8!? removing the defense of the rook but white has Rg6! saving the rook with tempo of mate and attacking the rook. Still it was a fun episode. As far as the refutation I missed Nd7 and thought it was Nc8+?, the idea is that if white tries his Kf8 idea Rf1+ Rf7 Rxf7!? you cant take with the king because of stalemate, so gxf7 Kh7 and I thought the white king cant move from in front of the pawn because the knight on c8 covers e7 and white's knight blocks e8. Additionally if white plays Nc7 black can play Nd6 taking the pawn before white can move it and insufficient material. Finally I thought if white plays Nf6+ Kh8 and if Ke8?? Nd6+ forks the king and the pawn, but of course the fun is spoiled again as white can play Ne4 covering d6 allowing Ke8 and promotion. Although it is an interesting thought if it was white's turn to move when the black king started on h7 after the trade of rooks it would be a draw because of zugzwang after Kh8. And you just draw with one tempo.

And in the Stockfish line, after R31+, there is Kf7 RxN, Rg6 winning.

"Stockfish ruins another chess puzzle" Alternative title: "Stockfish mourns Mittens in the only way it ever can"

this reminds me of the SF refute of the famous Tal chess puzzle!

Nd7 was easy to find There is an interesting line after 1. Rg7+ Kh8 2. Ke7 Re1+ 3. Kf7. Black plays 3. ... Rxe8! white can't take the rook 4. Rg6! with Rh6# threat actually wins the game.

@mythbusters866

3 ай бұрын

Right analysis is this... black plays 3. ...Rxe8(!)

Did find Nd7 based on what you showed us earlier happens if the knight is taken and the fact that it denies the f8 square

I agreed with the composer, which means stockfish schooled me too. I didn't find Nd7. I used Re1 check to capture the knight. If white king takes black rook then the Black King captures the white rook and the pawn. If white declines the sacrifice as they should, then black can repeat rook checks to get the desired rook trade in multiple ways. Edit: This doesn't work for trapping the white rook if you use stockfish strategy of leaving the pawn at g5. Still, the loss of the knight removes the easy checkmate options.

Bruh, stockfish ruined our pawn smothered mate(not really) but tell us the amazing ending. Did Stockfish ruin chess?

I'm not good at chess but I actually found the move. I was like wait what?

If "I bet you're great at parties" was a person

Could you imagine if in basketball, football, soccer, hockey or baseball that if a team was losing, their back against the wall, and just started pulling players out of the game or laying down to force a tie? Imagine bowling or billiards just throwing gutter balls or scratching repeatedly to force a draw. No other sport or game has such stupid rules.

I found the stockfish move, not cause im good at chess, more cause im good at throwing pieces away

Nd7. Same as ke6 nd5. N holds f8 f6, can be taken

5:30 Found! It was not that hard because basically the knight has only 2 places he can go which allow him to get active and defend the position: d5 and d7. d5 has already been analyzed. So it remains d7 and moving the rook but basically there are also only two options for the rook: checking the white king which has already been analyzed too and taking on g6 but after rook take rook you understand it's just a useless sacrifice. So, knight to d7 is the only valid option that has not been analyzed yet in this position. However, I would have never found such a moove if i had not been told it exist.

I don't get why the nxd7 move was so special. Move the rook to skewer the knight with rxe1and if the king takes it, it's a draw since you lose the rook in the process, with the king having position on the pawn, as well as their knight still, too. If the king doesn't take then you've got a free piece and advantage, potentially even a win for black. it's surprising that nobody noticed that... i'd love to know how a king/pawn/rook manages to beat a king/rook/knight if that is actually how it plays out from here.

I found the move that refutes it, but I don't feel like I can really take credit. Just from your explanation of the intended line I knew it had to be that move. You emphasized both that the square the knife is controlling was important, and that taking the knight drew the game, so that move immediately jumped out to me when you told us the position the move was in.

I found Nd7 almost immediately, actually when you were showing the winning line for the first time at around 2:46

Where are u getting these puzzles

7:10 I was thinking Ke7 the whole game because i thought that he could repetitive check and/or sac a knight and rook to get stalemate

Nc7 was actually my guess for the fish move, but I didn't have the whole line worked out. It seems so clear once it's explained. Is there partial credit in chess? 😂 Thanks Nelson!

Curiously I did not see the flaw that Stockfish saw, but my first instinct was the Stockfish sanctioned solution.

i directly saw Rg7 but couldn't find a good follow up. As you showed the pawn moving up i instinctively hated that move it feels useless to constrict a King that is already in the Corner and can't move and stockfish proves you don't need it (and it's even wrong if black is strong enough). I think the Composer started at the finale with the rook sacrifice and tried to get ppl there.

that's not stockfish saying it won't work; that'd be the syzygy tablebases, a completely different project that stockfish relies on to win or draw 7 piece endgames

i never wanted to move the pawn in the first place

I was so surprised, I kept thinking it was king e7 at the start and then it was haha

Couldn't find it; was thinking I could suicide the rook into the pawn but it never worked out. Very interesting. Thanks for sharing this!

When someone tells you “There’s a better move” then it’s pretty easy to spot it.

@Name-nq7tj

Жыл бұрын

that's one of the problems with puzzles the solutions often times are way easier to see when you know theirs a solution or crazy play when usually in a game the hardest part is knowing when their is a crazy play more so then finding it.

So stock fish found the actual solution for the puzzle.

Black is also drawn in the end of the main line as long as they don't play nf6

5:44 What if White walks up to the Black Rook and lets it check him but drags the rook back to a square where the Knight can take it and the King or Knight don't protect the White Rook but can protect the pawn after the Black King takes the White Rook? Might that be a way out of the stalemate trap?

5:28 I've found it, but only after i was told to search for it

When you have 7 pieces or less, you have the endgame tables. Stockfish is completely useless here.

I found Nd7, but only because you said it was a crazy move and it was the first crazy move I could think of

Whats crazy is that i didnt see the pawn raise move, i thought the best move was to move the king

I must be a robot cuz that king move was my first thought

There's 7 pieces on the board. Who needs Stockfish when you have the tablebase?

Even before stockfish, I thought they had 7 piece endgame tables? Just look it up in the table to verify if the composer's solution worked/if there exist other solutions.

I always wonder why the move Rf1 doesn't played to cut off the king into going to the f file in many position. Do you guys have any answer?

Great channel

1 question... Why @7:15... Rook can give a check from "e rank" and capture white knight. If king captures rook, black captures white rook. If pawn push or white king move... Rook keep giving check to white

@Rocky64

Жыл бұрын

...Re1+, Kf7 Rxe8, Rg6! threatens Rh6 mate which Black can't stop without losing the rook.

When I first seen it thought win for white. Pretty much always right. When see an over all of board. Whether it’s a win for white, black or draw. But don’t and struggle to fine winning move. Was thinking Rock to F7, but more a think about it. King to E7 would make more sense

@andyclark8991

Жыл бұрын

6:56

hide the evel bar it is small on the right of the bord it kills the magic

I found Knight to d7 but simply because you said that Stockfish found a crazy move.

What if from the position at 1:54: black rook to e1+ The point is if the white king stays next to its Knight the black rook can take the knight, and if the king takes the rook then the other king can take the white rook and its a draw. It'd be a draw because the white king can't defend the pawn and so the black king would just take the pawn on the next turn leaving just the lone white king against the black king and knight. I don't know what would happen if the white king doesn't take the rook.

@Rocky64

Жыл бұрын

...Re1+, Kf7 Rxe8, Rh7 mate.

The move was easy to find, but only because you said there was a move to look for.

stockfish is really game killer

I seen that the pawn move was incorrect when the video started

5:36 I thought that it was Rxg6

I found it watching chess puzzle make my 700 elo brain sel turn like stock fish lol

I actually found knight d7. Great puzzle!

I got the knight to d7, my idea is just trying to sacrifice and get a stalemate, and it was actually correct :), lucky me

where can I find a record of the original puzzle?

I stumbled upon an ~800 rated puzzle with a 0.4% pass rate. It was absurd

6:05 you don't have to trade

So that means I found the stockfish AND the intended move!!!!

I founded the Knight sacrifice.

Cool line that he didn't mention, after Rg7+ Kh8 Ke7 black has Nc7 (instead of Nb6 that he showed instead). Taking the knight removes defense on your rook, and the game is a draw. The only correct move is Kf7, defending your rook with your king and mating if black does nothing. Black now takes your knight, and once again taking with the king removes defense on your rook, losing you the game this time. You now must play Rg8+, escaping the attack from the knight. You still cant take, as the king is still hitting your rook. You now must play g6+, and black now has the option to sacrifice the rook and go into a rook vs knight endgame, which in most cases are draws. This is not the case this time, as blacks king is stuck in the corner. Its mate in 8. The other option is to move down, and yet again you cant take the knight. Your rook doesn't hang, but black takes your pawn and you transition into a drawn rook vs rook endgame. You now go Rh8+, forcing the king to g5, blocking the rooks attack on your pawn. You can now finally take blacks knight, but not with the king! Although you might think this is because you stop defending your pawn, this is not the case. If black takes your pawn, you skewer their rook and win the game. But after Kf6, you are unable to defend your pawn. Therefore, you must take with the rook. Black can try going back to h6, revealing an attack on your pawn with the rook. This doesn't work because you can go Rh8+ and the king is forced to move back. Black is running out of options and plays Rf1+. You cant lose your pawn, so you stay defending with Kg7. Black now plays Rf6, threatening to take your pawn with check and make a draw. There isn't any way to defend your pawn, but you have a tactic in this position. Re5+. Any king move relinquishes defense on the rook, so the rook must block. There are now plenty of winning moves, but the easiest way is to trade rooks into a winning king and pawn endgame.

At 7:21 instead of R f1 check, what if R takes Knight on e8?

@sasu74

Жыл бұрын

After Rxe8, White has Rg6, with the idea Rh6X.