Should salvagers be allowed to retrieve the Marconi radio even if it means cutting a hole in the wreck?

@ganggangopp

2 жыл бұрын

yes its gonna be lost if we dont get it

@jeffreyhale3766

2 жыл бұрын

Personally, I think salvage is wrong period. The tragic nature of the disaster, expressed wishes of some of the survivors, and the possibility of damage the wreck are something I choose not to dismiss.

@evanc.5919

2 жыл бұрын

Yes

@sonicspeedster2684

2 жыл бұрын

No,it’s going to speed up the deterioration of the ship and I personally think we should stop receiving things from the wreck in general.

@DanknDerpyGamer

2 жыл бұрын

@@jeffreyhale3766 I think it would mean we'd need to look at the issue through layers - what is being slavaged, where it is coming from, whether it belonged to the White Star Line or not, etc - rather than an overly broad painting of the issue on the whole as black/white.

If I died in a shipwreck today and 100+ years later someone wanted to preserve artifacts I'd approve, physical objects make it easier for people to connect and remember. Should they be salvaged for personal/ corporate profit? No, but for educational purposes such as museum exhibits in my opinion that's honoring the dead not disrespecting them.

@jimmilton6644

2 жыл бұрын

yeah they should go into museums, reasrch facilities or to families

@35manning

2 жыл бұрын

Well said. We don't see many crashes and wrecks of aircraft, buses and cars being preserved as "grave sites" because we can generally recover the bodies easily and clean up the mess. So why are shipwrecks in deep oceans so different? It's just too hard for us to clean up our own mess. So we call if a grave site and feel justified in leaving it scattered on the sea floor.

@Garsons-oq4lh

2 жыл бұрын

@amy xoxoxo Reporter: "What do you feel about all the attention recently (1987) about bringing up artefacts from the Titanic?" Eva Hart (Second Class survivor): "That I deplore and I will have nothing to do with the French who go down and dig into my father's grave, bring things up and sell them [sic], I think its disgusting. The Titanic, as far as I'm concerned, is a totally different disaster to any other because it is the only disaster in which there was no need for anyone to die, and if the Titanic had had enough lifeboats, nobody would have died. They would have had two and a half hours in which to save everybody and we certainly wouldn't be chuntering about it now. But it was such a tragedy, because it was, as Doctor Ballard said, "A monument to man's arrogance", and those 1500 people died and they shouldn't have died, and therefore to me that is a grave, not a thing of great monument for people to go and pick things up from. It's a grave and leave it and I feel very strongly about it. And I'm so glad Doctor Ballard agrees with me. I said to him once, "I'm not a very clever person, but surely we can't learn anything from bringing bits up from the Titanic. She's not an old ship. Now the Mary Rose is something quite different". And he agreed with me. He said, "You know she was built of steel and wood and as they are today we can't learn anything from her, then leave her alone." Leave her alone. And I resent it very much when people think otherwise."

@35manning

2 жыл бұрын

@@Garsons-oq4lhUm, not relevant. "and sell them" That's not what is planned, nobody will be listing a Marconi radio on eBay a week after its lifted. "it is the only disaster in which there was no need for anyone to die" Umm, OK. Can anyone please point out ANY disaster where there was a NEED for anyone to die? . Some people may have different views and that's fine. But to use just a single person's view out of the THOUSANDS of people with a vested interest is a little ridiculous. And whilst the snippet of the article you provided lacks details such as the survivors occupation or academic background, I would suggest they lack the knowledge of what modern science can or can't learn from further exploring the wreck including the recovery of artefacts which may later be used to tell the story to new generations.

@Garsons-oq4lh

2 жыл бұрын

@@35manning Um, this was an actual survivor who lost her father. Her comments are just as relevant as they were when the first salvage took place.

We put mummies into museums and looted ancient burial sites so I don’t see the fuss about bringing items up from the wreck especially since all the human remains are gone by now. Within a few decades the wreck will be noting but a brown spot at the bottom of the ocean. It is important to preserve pieces of history.

@timonsolus

2 жыл бұрын

The human remains were gone the day the ship sank (except the corpses floating on the surface in life jackets). The water pressure crushed the flesh off the bones, then crushed the bones into powder. No skeletons reached the bottom intact.

@jeffreyhale3766

2 жыл бұрын

But, who is saying that was right either? Just because wrong things were done in the past is not justification for doing wrong now or in the future.

@ExiledWolf84

2 жыл бұрын

@@timonsolus Some would disagree with that theory. "Whale falls" were discovered pretty recently and show evidence on the contrary.

@PunksloveTrumpys

2 жыл бұрын

@@timonsolus For there to be so many pairs of boots and shoes lying on the ocean floor in positions consistent with a (somewhat) intact corpse landing there, surly this is incorrect?

@insight-chris7570

2 жыл бұрын

@@timonsolus I'm pretty sure that this is not 100% right, for example the wreck of the Bismarck which lies even deeper than Titanic is shown to have a intact skull inside of the plane hangar as recent as of 2002.So I'd think that human remains didn reach the bottom of the sea in one piece more or less

Generally, I'm of your opinion. There needs to be an informed sliding scale of historical importance and risk of damage to the ship. Removing the wireless will cause some damage, but it is enormously important and, as it is in a small deckhouse on the top of the ship, the amount of damage that its removal will do is minimal. As to the question of selling items for profit and into either private collections or public museums, I'm OK with a good amount going into private collections because, if it is not recovered now, it never will be. If it is in a private collection, it will be preserved and may eventually be donated to a public museum. If items remain on the bottom because there is no potential to sell them, and thus no money to recover them, everyone loses forever, rather than just for (potentially) a few years or decades. If someone pays bring up a bottle of wine, keeps it at home and shows it to their friends, but my daughter gets to see it in an exhibit 50 years from now because that guy's kid donated it to a museaum, I'd find that preferable to nobody ever seeing it. Even if it remains in private hands until Kingdom Come or it is destroyed in a house fire 150 years from now, the money paid to recover it will still help fund expeditions that recover other items, many of which will be available to the public and researchers. As to the overarching propriety of the question... Catholic and Protestant Christian (as well as Jewish) religious authorities should be consulted as the majority of the victims would have subscribed to these faiths.

@derekheeps1244

2 жыл бұрын

Since much of the radio apparatus was wooden , little of it will survive ; copper coils will most likely have corroded away as well . It should be left alone

The gravesite argument is a little bit emotional, even actual graves are dug up and stones removed in less time than has passed since the Titanic. People are sentimal because it was such a tragedy. There is not one iota of a human being left down there. I was on the Estonia a little before she sank and I've thought about me or my family going down with her. In my personal opinion I would want my things, or my familys things, brought up. Much rather than have them just rot away and disappear forver. But that's just me and maybe I'm cold but.. Time will tell I guess.

@randomrazr

2 жыл бұрын

u were on the estonia when it went down?

@SannaGNR

2 жыл бұрын

@@randomrazr No, I had travelled on her just before that voyage, and many times before that when she was Wasa King, too.

@jeffreyhale3766

2 жыл бұрын

I doubt you are cold or you thoughts would not be so well stated. My point to you, respectfully, is that you are not a Titanic survivor. We have recorded statements from those that were, and many, not all, wanted the wreck undisturbed. I think we all, myself included, treat the Titanic disaster as a public event. It wasn't. It was a personal event for those on that ship and was not witnessed by anyone but them. I think we should take our cues from them, and not ourselves.

@greglivo

2 жыл бұрын

The band Marillion has a song about the Estonia. Give it a listen.

Growing up in Halifax, Nova Scotia close to the Cemetery where a number of Titanic victims are buried ( some identified and some not at that time) the History of the Titanic was always a part of our lives. Perhaps because of the tragedy but perhaps as well because we lived in such close connection with the Atlantic Ocean. As children the city & the ocean were our playgrounds. When we were old enough our parents allowed us to go unaccompanied to that cemetery as we lived within walking distance.. It was a ritual visit we kids made every year. After paying visits to family graves we gathered wild flowers and placed them at graves of the Titanic victims. On some occasions we were given garden flowers to take. Even as young children we knew many of these people were buried far from their homes and relatives and we felt it important for them to not be forgotten. For the unnamed graves we made up fantastical, romantic stories of their lives. The Titanic tragedy was one that brought the reality of sailing ships & ocean travel ( which we living on the Atlantic knew all to well) to the world stage. While it’s resting place is I believe sacred, were I one of its victims I would want significant items of its belief history to be salvaged and shared with the world. One day it will be gone and the opportunity will be lost. The artifacts will then speak for the Titanic, its brief history, a testament to the ship building industry & its lost souls. Gratitude for this presentation. I enjoyed it very much! I have not visited the Titanic graves for 55 years but if it was not pouring sheets of rain I would be there now. I will go tomorrow. While I have not gone there are busloads of tourists that visit every year. While at Peggy’s Cove one day 3 years ago I gave a tour bus driver from South Carolina the directions to get there. I believe that speaks to the interest that still remains to this day.

I say take everything while we can, we don't leave airplane crashes or building collapses as sacred untouchable memorials. We put a plaque down and that's it

@joker432

2 жыл бұрын

Very valid point.

@pookiepooh

2 жыл бұрын

Fail.

@PassiveSmoking

2 жыл бұрын

Plane crashes and building collapses can be very hazardous to both people and the environment if just left so they need to be removed for safety reasons. They also need to be analysed forensically as part of the investigation, to determine what caused the crash or the collapse. Any personal effects found during such operations are returned to the families and usually don't end up in museums unless with the consent and support of the families. Shipwrecks from before the oil-burning and nuclear-power era are pretty inert so they don't damage the environment much and don't need to be cleaned up, and they're too inaccessible to be a safety hazard. None of the families will have much say in what becomes of any personal effects that get brought up. All that's to be gained from salvaging Titanic is profit.

I am into archeology and worked in a museum with a burial site as part of the museum, and I must be honest: I don't see any problems with salavaging Artifacts from Titanic, when it meets scientific and dialectic standards, methods and purpose At first the historical significance of the site speaks for it, second the fact, that human remains are not there anymore, and third there are hardly any victims of the catastrophe nor close relatives left.

its crazy how its been more than a century since titanic plunged beneath the surface and we still talk and research about it till this day. I hope the legacy of Titanic and the story of her survivors wont be forgotten for the next few centuries

I have to say I agree with your ideas for the most part. As the wreck deteriorates the number of ways to remember the vessel will inevitably decrease until it’s completely gone, so if we can at least pinpoint and recover important sections for preservation it will help the legacy for years to come. Plus with other bits that aren’t being broken down like the large propellers or other fittings not being eaten away, there’s always the chance at later recovery of those objects, so there isn’t a rush

I've been attatched to this ship since i was very young, its been a lifelong fascination. I think anything that is easily accessible should be preserved, but there should have only been one place that they all occupied. I don't like the idea of going deep into the ship, or the artifacts spreading out all over the world into private collections and small exhibits etc. as I think that has a splintering effect on her soul which is very much still intact. thanks for the content man, one of my favorite channels for sure!

Ideally I would support the conservation of Titanic's treasures for public display in museums and state libraries but the unfortunate reality is that most relics from the ship end up in private collections or locked away in archives never to see the light of day.

@wawawawatusi

2 жыл бұрын

Totally the point to make here! The question should've been WHO should be salvaging objects....

@derekheeps1244

2 жыл бұрын

@@wawawawatusi The answer to that question is NO ONE

I've been studying the tragedy for nearly 30 years. For what it's worth, my opinion is that she should be preserved and left as she was. So many dreams died with her; a grave site may be visited, but should never be disturbed.

@randomrazr

2 жыл бұрын

disagreee, the wreck will collaspe on itself. soon it will be nothing more then a pile of metal and wood and essentially RUST. salvage what we can while its still standing. people cant remember and mourn 12,000 feet at the bottom of the atlantic, but they can in museusms and such.

@timonsolus

2 жыл бұрын

@@randomrazr : Corrections - there’s very little wood left on Titanic. Mostly eaten long ago. And the rust isn’t just rust - it’s also waste products from iron eating bacterial microbes.

@sadiedavenport

2 жыл бұрын

I really appreciate you saying this. So many people argue as if the importance of Titanic and the only way to remember her is all tied up in the things we can salvage from the wreck site. It's people that matter. The wreck should be left as a memorial to the people who sailed on her. So many people died, and the lives of many who lived were ruined. It's not a place to scavenge artifacts for profit so that we can "remember" people whose names we don't know. We don't remember Titanic because of the artifacts. Rather, we value the artifacts because of Titanic.

@pookiepooh

2 жыл бұрын

Bingo.

@timonsolus

2 жыл бұрын

@@sadiedavenport : A ship is a memorial. A shapeless pile of rust on the ocean floor isn’t.

Only artifacts in the debris zone or on the open more accessible and open parts of the ship. Whilst I am opposed to the salvage of the deeper portions of the ship due to moral reasons, I believe that conservation off the artefacts is the key to keeping the ship alive for future generations

@ender8416

2 жыл бұрын

Artifacts*

@dianabowman7042

2 жыл бұрын

@@ender8416 thank you

@ender8416

2 жыл бұрын

@@dianabowman7042 np

@DanknDerpyGamer

2 жыл бұрын

On a side note, it would be really cool if science could design smaller ROVs that can go into deeper spots, fit into narrow gaps, as it'd be cool to at least SEE deeper inside the ship before it is all lost.

@35manning

2 жыл бұрын

So, should the archaeologists who discovered King Tuts grave stayed outside of it? Granted the Titanic is in a location where grave robbery isn't as big a threat, but the ever present salt water is currently at work stealing away all the artefacts. Whilst causing reckless damage at will to grab everything in sight is not the way to do it, I think that NOTHING should be off limits. If a person dies in a bus accident, all their identifiable personal effects are returned to their family and not left strewn upon the ground. Anything not identifiable (and not being required as evidence) is simply thrown out. Why is Titanic so different? No physical human remains have been found at the site. Older archaeological sites, even known grave sites, are freely dug up and investigated. Sure it's done carefully and with all the respect the site deserves, but bone samples are taken and testing, artefacts are taken. There are SO many archaeological "finds", including human remains, that are literally stored in boxes on shelf in the back rooms of research facilities, universities and libraries that you have to wonder why it's done at all. But with the passing years, newer technologies can reveal so much more. As long as the finds are preserved. What questions will people have about the Titanic in 1000 years? What new technologies will they possess to help answer those questions? But more importantly, what archaeological samples will they have to test, if we don't preserve them now before that are lost forever?

I think you should only be able to take items that were part of the ship, not personal items. Also,items shouldn’t be put into private collections but museums.

@theWanderersnotebook

2 жыл бұрын

I absolutely agree with you. Especially since the wreck is deteriorating at such a pace that we should get artefacts that were a part of the story of the ship and it’s loss while we still have access to them. This is why I support the salvage of the Marconi wireless because it has such a role in the story of the Titanic that it would be a shame for us to not salvage it. On the point about artefacts being in museums, I also agree with you as having visited a travelling exhibition when it came to Calgary I was stunned by the amount of time, effort and care that was put into the exhibit. The giving out of passenger cards 🃏, the wandering through the backstory of the Titanic leading up to that fateful night, being able to touch the “iceberg”, and finally seeing the artefacts recovered from the wreck and list of passengers who survived and were lost , made it an interactive experience like no other as it felt like I had travelled back in time to that point in history. In short yes we should be able to salvage items that directly connected to the wreck while we still have time and opportunity to do so.

@jimmilton6644

2 жыл бұрын

unless the items were going to people who are related to the victims i argee

@AirshipsAviation11

2 жыл бұрын

Yes

@DetTigerFan

2 жыл бұрын

There are already personal items that are on display in the various Titanic exhibits.

While I can appreciate this as a grave, I'd remind everyone that we are currently engaging in archaeological studies of the battlefields of the Great War of 1914-1918. This proposal would seem little different.

@timonsolus

2 жыл бұрын

Agreed. Also, on Titanic, there are absolutely no humans remains anywhere on the site (they were all crushed into powder by the water pressure). Unlike a WW1 battlefield.

@FinalLugiaGuardian

2 жыл бұрын

@@timonsolus Not exactly. They weren't crushed into powder per se. Any remains that actually made it to the ocean bottom would have been "tenderized" by the crushing pressure and then the sea Critters down there would have then eaten the remains.

@derekheeps1244

2 жыл бұрын

That does not make disturbing any graves right

@derekheeps1244

2 жыл бұрын

@@timonsolus other organic items were either consumed by marine organisms or simply decomposed

I think items from the wreck should be recovered. This debate reminds me of Covehithe, the town that is slowly eroding away into the ocean. There is a graveyard in the town, and if nothing is done about it, it will be gone in 100 years. So when the time comes, the bodies buried there will have to be relocated elsewhere. This is just like the Titanic, we will have to “relocate” it’s artifacts to the surface so we can remember her, just like the bodies buried in Covehithe.

@derekheeps1244

2 жыл бұрын

We can all remember Titanic just fine without any need to plunder the wreck : there are plenty of photographs

I whole heartedly feel EXACTLY how you feel on this topic. NOTHING of intimate personal ownership of a passenger should be taken unless you can identify the living family of that person. But the ship of itself and property owned by white star. I believe need to have pieces saved.

I believe the Titanic should be remembered. Totally agree with your parameters 👍🏻

I would say yes, salvage what can be salvaged respectfully. Obviously dont blow up the wreck for it, but one day the Titanic will be gone forever, I believe having artifacts or fragments from it on display in museums is a better way to know and remember what happened. For me, to have a piece of something to see and appreciate, being and care for by others is the best way to preserve history and pay respect to the victims of it. It is a grave, but one day that grave will be gone, and I'd like it if other people of tomorrow were able to preserve the artifacts as respect for the people of the past.

Yes! Everything that can possibly be salvaged should be, and be made available such that anyone can gaze at them and dream. The Titanic is by far the most famous ship of the golden age of sea travel, and it's story is the a major chapter in that history. When I was growing up, a huge and often discussed topic was where is the wreck if the Titanic. When it was at last found, the solving of one of the great mysteries fired the public imagination, and we wanted nothing more then to see something of it. Even those few bits of coal you had are the stuff of dreams.

I kinda fall-in with those who say this grave site should not be disturbed. But of more concern to me is the fact that deep-sea operations - even using submersibles -- carry huge risks to the people performing them. Is it worth the risk to human life just to obtain some trinkets? Further, it's odd that this company selects the Marconi set as a target. It seems to me that this delicate radio set has long since had its wood parts & cloth wire insulation eaten by microorganisms, and the only remaining bits after immersion in seawater for 110-or-so years will be a pile of indistinguishable wires & perhaps some vacuum tubes. Not worth your trouble!

@AndyHappyGuy

2 жыл бұрын

First of all, it’s not really a big risk to the people if the submersible is designed well. How many times have a submersible had problems at Titanic? To my knowledge, there has been none. It’s very worth the trouble if it will help preserve the memory of the Titanic and in this case, Wireless Operator Jack Phillips,

@AndyHappyGuy

2 жыл бұрын

Nah, I disagree

Short answer yes. I understand the emotional context in that it happed only 109 and a half years ago, but is it any different that getting artifacts from a sunk 17th century sailing ship? But yes I also understand that the victims's decendant relatives still would have a say in things

I don't think there's any reason to not salvage it. The ocean will destroy the thing if we don't. Gonna happen one way or the other, might as well.

Robert ballard ( the guy who discovered the wreck) stated that taking artifacts from inside the titanic is like taking belt buckles from the corpses in the arizona at pearl harbour. And the money made from displaying the radio set isnt going to a titanic fund. Its going towards titanic inc to pay for peoples salaries, overhead and stuff of that like. That doesnt feel right to me

You start making acceptions they’ll rip it apart. The rules are already in place. It’s been settled, yet the vultures are circling, RMS Titanic has new management and had to be forced last time.

"They'll be permanently damaging the ship" It's not like the ship is in prefect condition. It's 2 miles under water. IMO it's a bad submarine.

@derekheeps1244

2 жыл бұрын

It is a tomb

technically, we live in a graveyard. everything around us used to belong to dead people, or are from dead something. also, without disrespecting dead people, they don't need material possessions anymore. as much as possible offer them to their relatives if found. but the rest to museums, why not even sole to private collection, the diving RMS Titanic is doing is not free. I also once heard of a case of a plane that crashed i believe in the area of Titanic, but in the cargo, there was a suitcase full of diamonds, and I believe they decided not to recover and to bury the sunken plane with gravel. not entirely sure about all the details though

@derekheeps1244

2 жыл бұрын

You are probably thinking about the KLM Constellation that crashed into a field at Tarbolton , near Prestwick Airport , carrying a consignment of diamonds from Amsterdam, bound for USA . The diamonds were scattered throughout the field , which was scoured for weeks afterwards . People occasionally find the odd stone , even today .

Just a quick note to say I love your channel! You are so informed and I have learned so much from you. Keep the vids coming!

Here's my thoughts: If Titanic had been a plane crash or a building collapse, it would have been cleared and tossed away. Anything that could've been claimed or returned would have, and everything else would've been treated as garbage and part of the wreck itself, which would not have been nearly as valued as it has become. Take the World Trade Center as an example. Different in many, many ways, but similar in that they were tragic events where lots of people died and lots of wreckage was left in a "small" space. We didn't leave the wreckage of the World Trade Center where it fell. We cleaned it up and sorted through it. Bodies were buried and items were returned. Some things were claimed to be memorials, or used to carry a piece of something or other in another thing. But most of it was cleared up and thrown away. The only reason that didn't happen with Titanic was because we couldn't reach it for 70 years. White Star looked into the feasibility of finding and salvaging Titanic, if I remember rightly, but they found it wouldn't be worth it and left it at the bottom of the ocean. The world moved on and Titanic sat at the bottom of the sea. By the time we found it, it had become historical as a shipwreck which changed the world, as well as a relic of a by-gone era still with us today. I think, for that reason alone, salvage is best not done. The whole site is an accidental memorial to the disaster, to those who died, and to the monumental effect it had on the world. It's also very useful to study where things fell in the sinking, which can help us learn more about the sinking itself. It's a resource and a memorial, and so I think it should be left alone. However, it doesn't matter what I think, as people are gonna salvage the wreck anyways, so here are the guidelines I would put in place: Any salvage must be salvaged to be exhibited and cared for, not sold as treasure. I'll get into exceptions below, but, as a general rule, it belongs in a museum. Do not touch the shoes. None of them. Not at all. The shoes are the closest thing those who died have to a grave. Let them rest unless the shoe can be positively identified as belong to one person, that one person's family still survives, and they want their relative's effective gravesite with them. Otherwise, leave them there. Personal items, I think, would be okay to salvage. If it can be identified who it belongs to, as you said, that person's descendants or family must be contacted to see if they want the items. If they do not, or they do want ownership of it but are okay with it being exhibited, or if no descendants or family can be contacted, then it can wind up in a museum or other similar public exhibition to be shown as part of the wreck, to help educate about and humanize the disaster. Things in the debris field should be extensively catalogued as to where they are and how they are on the ocean floor before they're salvaged, but besides that, I don't suppose it really matters. Things in the wreck itself are trickier. If they can be brought up with no risk of damage to the item or the wreck, then it can be brought up, as long as, like I said, it's catalogues as to what it is, where it is, and how it is in the wreck. If the item will be damaged, then it's a no-go. It must stay in the wreck. I feel the only grey area will be if the wreck itself will be damaged. The wreck isn't coming up. It's impossible. I'm fairly certain it would disintegrate. It's been down there too long to be saved, although I'm not sure even if we had the tech that we have now in 1912 that it could've be saved. I think the wreck might have been too broken even then. Definitely the stern. Anyways. Is it acceptable to damage the wreck in the name of bringing up items? I think so. The wreck can't be saved, but parts of it can be. If the wreck gets a little damaged, that is obviously regrettable, but I feel that it would be the net least damage for the net most historical gain. As long as the structure where the radio is is not destroyed, or it is extensively catalogued, then I would be okay with the radio being salvaged, and similar actions occurring for other things within the wreck. I would love to see the Renault CE or the Rubaiyat come up. And obviously, the wreck needs to be damaged as little as possible. Like laparoscopic surgery. This is a tricky subject, and I don't think we'll ever have one, solid, yes-or-no answer. There will always be a special case or an exception. All we can do is establish general guidelines, closely monitor salvage efforts, and always handle the items in a respectful way in order to respect the memory of the ship and those lost with her.

The debate of whether or not to take anything what settled when Dr David Ballard did not bring up anything from the Titanic so as he could have had woods hold be the sole proprietor for it, therefore they would have been able to conserve it. Titanic is now private property more or less. The company that now owns it can do some things that we most likely would disagree with. Dr David Ballard was the last disaster of the Titanic, when he found her and did not claim her.

If Dr. Ballard would have taken a teacup from the wreckage when he found it he would’ve owned that wreckage meaning he wouldn’t have never had let people go down there but he didn’t realize it at the time otherwise he said he would’ve taken a teacup because then legally he would own the titanic

I feel conflicted. If I’d died, I would be honored that someone would want to go through all this trouble to share my story and the lessons learned from it. On the other hand, most of the stuff on the ship isn’t particularly unique - you can find jewelry, furniture, books, etc. from 1912 sold at flea markets and antique stores everywhere. Honestly, if Titanic didn’t sink, I doubt anybody would’ve remembered her - she would’ve been converted into a troop ship, refitted for civilian use, and then sold multiple times before being broken up for scrap.

i think everything should be brought back (even personal items) because it's going to disappear anyway if it stay down there. however, i think this can't be done for profit, these objects should be in a museum accessible to everyone

The thought of salvaging artefacts from shipwrecks have wracked my brain for a few years. On one hand, it gives us an opportunity to see what the technology or what the era could have been like back when the ship was built, but at the same time, I feel like salvaging relics from a gravesite is somewhat disrespecting the dead, unless there are certain liberties like the involved family as you pointed out. It's like how we keep finding lost treasure within sunken shipwrecks that either belonged to sailors or pirates centuries ago. Finding treasure is a treat to many, but the question is should we look for said treasure when it doesn't really belong to anybody of this century? In the end, I suppose it's a grey area when it comes to salvaging artefacts.

While I'm generally all for salvaging whatever we can from the wreck site, retrieving the Marconi set would be going WAY too far. Deliberately inflicting structural damage on the already deteriorating ship is unconscionable to me.

@derekheeps1244

2 жыл бұрын

Given that there is unlikely to be much left of the apparatus ( the wooden frames will be gone , copper wires and coils most likely corroded away ) few parts , and remember it was not one item but a room full of separate components , many bolted to the walls , there will be little to salvage , and removing anything remaining without it coming apart would be extremely difficult . It is time the British Supreme Court declared this a grave site and outlawed entering the ship or removing anything from it

I agree with your opinion 100%. I have no problem with people making profit, it would be like saying you can't sell anything from WW2 because people died during it.

Yes we should definitely salvage any objects we can without damaging the wreck. Pieces of the ship should only be salvaged if they are already detached so to not compromise the structure further. Human remains (if there are any deep in the ship) should remain inside the ship. But objects should be salvaged I know people make the arguement that its a graveyard but by that logic we should cease all excavation of all cemeteries. We have exhumed graves for historical study and the Titanic isn't any different. So long as this can be done without damaging the ship we should collect artifacts from the wreck for the sake of historical preservation.

Ever since I saw the movie "A Night To Remember" I've had a huge interest in the Titanic especially after it was found and videotaped by Dr. Ballard and the team from the Woodshole Institute. To recover items for a museum exhibit or to save them from future destruction due to continued longterm effects of being submerged for all these years I have no problem with. Even if these items were to be recovered from the sea for a private collector I wouldn't have a problem with it because those items would at least be available for study or possible display instead of rusting away or becoming a part of a giant rusticle on the seafloor that the Titanic is turning into.

@derekheeps1244

2 жыл бұрын

The ship is a grave just like HMS Hood or Bismarck . It is illegal to enter these and other war graves . Titanic should be declared a grave site to protect it from further looting . This is every bit as bad as the people who plundered and looted the pyramids .

I think we should just let them rest in peace. Also wouldnt taking artefacts from a place being marked as a resting place be classed as grave robbing no matter what the object is

@nutsackmania

2 жыл бұрын

They're all dead they literally can't give a shit.

I’ll rather see those items preserved for the rest of the time then to see them disappear as if they never existed. And it’s a way to preserve the memory of her passengers and crew. As long as it’s being put in a museum, I’m fine with it but if it’s just gonna be sold off like it means nothing? No.

3 videos in a month nice we all appreciate it

I just went to the exhibit on the titanic artifacts when I was in Vegas last weekend. they even have a huge peice of the ship. absolutely crazy.

@derekheeps1244

2 жыл бұрын

Why do Americans have pieces of a BRITISH ship in places that never , ever had anything to do with her . I can understand the memorials in Belfast , Southampton , arguably even New York ( where WSL had a pier and offices ) , but not in other places with no connection whatsoever .

The Marconi set in the Titanic played a major role in that fateful night of course, so it is both famous and infamous for its role in its sinking. It is the equipment that was used to tell them to "Shut up! I'm trying to do Cape Race" and for "SOS We have struck an iceberg". It is not the first SOS signal as many claim as it was used by other ships that adhered to the international standard already and because it wasn't a requirement to have a radio operator at all times the calls for help went unheard by ships that could've done more to help, most notably the SS Californian. There was already the famous case of the RMS Republic where the signals were more effective, as everyone in the ship was saved except for those who died in the collision. Unfortunately on that case because in part of the success the Marconi set played in the rescue, some problems were ignored, it took quite some time to make it to the site of the disaster, there were problems with passengers of first class and a more prestigious steamer who were evacuated before the rest, ferrying passengers wasn't practical as the first ship to make it to the scene could become overloaded and they would have to wait for another ship to arrive anyway and it was already known that if a ship started to list several lifeboats could become unusable during the course of an evacuation. After the Marconi set is retrieved it is just a matter of time before something else takes its place in people's mind as the most important treasure inside the Titanic, and if the fear of losing the wreck site is so big why not take some preventive measures like reinforcement of weak points, cleaning the ship's outside and using protective paints to prevent rust and steel eating bacteria from damaging the ship?

I think artifacts can be retrieved if they’re non-personal and their retrieval poses no structural risk to the ship, like a dinner plate in the debris field. Taking a pair of shoes or some jewelry though would be grave-robbing in my eyes.

We need to lift as much as we can well it is still there. In Poland, there is a glass wall of shoes from the Jews. Should we close that because those are people's personal items?

@Iconoclasher

2 жыл бұрын

😊👍🏼 Excellent point.

@wawawawatusi

2 жыл бұрын

The pairs of shoes all over Titanic's debris field are where bodies came to rest on the seafloor - they are there graves in my opinion and shouldn't be disturbed.

@derekheeps1244

2 жыл бұрын

Yes - close it . The holocaust memorial in Berlin is poignant without needing any personal artefacts

I’m sure all of us here are fascinated with the Titanic, items as well as footage of the wreck site are intriguing. However I always have to balance that with remembering the human tragedy. And with each trip to the wreck site damage Is done / landing points for subs create new weak points on deck. And for such a celebrated ship, i find it facing we find it ok to damage the fabric of the actual Titanic just to get at something out of Curiosity. It reminds me of early Egyptology just “unwrapping”a mummy to get at the jewels. Maybe smarter Techniques or less invasive need to be used.

Great video.

In my opinion they should retrieve as much as possible while they can,because once the wreck collapse its going to be hard and some of the artifacts will be damaged or destroyed.People are against retrieving artifacts now,but i believe once wreck disappears,future generations will appreciate that artifacts were salvaged and that the wreck will never be forgotten.

The Marconi radio is accessible with an ROV. I saw it on a film of a dive with James Cameron. The ROV went right up close and Cameron noted that it was switched off, which is interesting since Bride had said he and Phillips remained at their post until water was running across the floor. Cameron commented that you'd have to be pretty brave to touch the switch if that were the case. RMS Titanic Inc is absolutely a for-profit company, and their claims about the wireless only discredit their already dubious motives. I would also like to point out that we don't value Titanic because of the artifacts. Rather, we value the artifacts because of Titanic. I appreciate your delicacy and consideration in handling this very sensitive topic.

This was a powerful video

On the whole, I agree with your opinion, salvage every non personnal item that can be salvaged. As for the personnal items, I would even say that, considering the time elapsed since the sinking, they could be salvaged too (after all, the Egyptian Pharoes treasures were salvaged).

I saw an interview with one of the last survivors (a toddler during the sinking) where she stated the wreck should be left alone and noted that it was in effect her father's grave site, and that should be the view. I went to Titanic Belfast (on a complete whim) while visiting Northern Ireland (where I took an interest in the ship) and the exhibits did a great job of using replicas to show what the ship was like. The radio salvage could turn into cheap commercialization- what's next? Selling parts of the Twin Towers or one of the wrecked Boeing Max 8's for profit? Maybe the Florida apartment building that collapsed? While the Titanic went down over 100 years ago and there aren't people who knew the victims left, this kind of commercialization of sites where people died under tragic circumstances would set a disturbing precedent for commercialization of other subject matter that is plainly disrespectful to families. The radio can be replicated.

@derekheeps1244

2 жыл бұрын

Well said . The similar radio from Olympic may still exist somewhere

I remember that with Telly Savalas and a group of investors, organized as a British company based in Gibraltar, is paying a French government agency, the Institute for Research and Exploration of the Sea, a reported $3 million for the use of a submarine, ships, divers and other resources to salvage stuff that went down with the Titanic. The submarine and the divers had recovered more than 300 of what the expedition organizers are calling ''artifacts'' from the ship. They include 160 dishes, a chandelier, a bronze cherub, four bottles, a propeller, seven pieces of furniture-and a small purser`s safe and a leather satchel containing coins, currency and jewels. The planned high point of the Titanic TV special is to be the opening-live and on camera and by none other than Telly ''Kojak'' Savalas-of the small purser`s safe already recovered.

It’s an interesting ethical quandary for sure and I have to admit I don’t know where I’d ultimately land on this.

Only artifacts in the debris field should be taken in my opinion, anything from inside the wreck should be left to rest in peace.

@wawawawatusi

2 жыл бұрын

The pairs of shoes all over Titanic's debris field are where bodies came to rest on the seafloor - they are there graves in my opinion and shouldn't be disturbed.

I think we should salvage some Pieces from Titanic but if they try to salvage the entire shipwreck off the bottom of the ocean floor if it was possible I’d say no because it wouldn’t be fair for all the souls that went down with the ship

Worst part of it would be the greed of the private collectors. I’m all for getting the items and putting them into a museum for the public to see

This honestly might possibly be the most famous radio in history. CQD.

Its a shame they can't take the first few meters of the bow and hull for display purposes. because that ships going to collapse in on its self within the next decade

@richardchantlerrico

2 жыл бұрын

I would love to see the whole bow piece recovered, it's the most recognizable part and best preserved (the stern was destroyed as it sank). Imagine having the bow raised and preserved in a museum for future generations to see like the Vasa - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasa_(ship)#/media/File:The_Vasa_from_the_Bow.jpg Nothing brings history alive like the real actual thing sitting there in front of you as an example of the mistakes of the past.

I think salvaging items from the wreck in an ethical was is good. Especially for education and history. AND, hopefully, we could learn more about what happened that day Especially when it comes to the 3rd class passengers :(

I feel that we should salvage whatever we can so long as they are properly preserved and available to the public.

What good is served by leaving the artifacts in place? Does that mean museum exhibitions like Pompeii, OKC, and 9/11 should also be off limits? People die everywhere! The other thing is, there are no bodies there. The bodies dissolved into the water a century ago. Technically speaking, the entire Earth is a graveyard. As for the radio, go for it! Even if it's destructive, it's gonna self-destruct anyway. And yes, I'd pay good money to see it. And no, I'm not giving up my chunk of Titanic coal.

@wawawawatusi

2 жыл бұрын

I think the point is you shouldn't have to pay money to see it. It should be in a museum, not a travelling American sideshow

@Iconoclasher

2 жыл бұрын

@@wawawawatusi How do you figure you're so privileged and important that you get to see it for free? A lot of money was spent to get it to the museum so why not pay for it?

@wawawawatusi

2 жыл бұрын

Free museums are the norm here in the UK - like free health care - making culture and history, which belong to everyone, accessible to all. So I guess you're right on one point - I am privileged!

@Iconoclasher

2 жыл бұрын

@@wawawawatusi 😀👍🏼

Everytime a sub has gone down to Titanic, they've caused more damage to the wreck. One item was ripped right off he ship

@AndyHappyGuy

2 жыл бұрын

So what if the crows nest is gone? It would have been gone anyways and we already have a picture of it.

Take whatever we can. Those people don't need them now. That's how I would feel if it was my property at the bottom of the Atlantic.

I'm not far off your opinion. Other shipwrecks have had holes cut in order to retrieve items, just because it's the most famous doesn't mean it should be exempt. BUT only if it's for public exhibition/ learning.

I am of the opinion that all artifacts from the wreck should be preserved in museums, not in the private collection of one individual or locked away in a warehouse for auction.

We constantly raise battleships for use of their Low-Background Steel. We take tons of artifacts from battlefields and burial grounds. We display corpses in museums in some cases. We display personal possessions of people in museums constantly. The ship won't be there forever, and even if it was, not many people get the opportunity to visit. Preserving the history is important. It is a grave site, and should be respected, but at the same time, the wreck of the Lusitania was used for depth charge practice. I don't consider recovering artifacts to be immoral, but even if it was, we have a better excuse than depth charge practice. My only fear is stuff like the big piece. They actually cut a huge section off to make it easier to display. THAT is immoral. These artifacts should not be tampered with in any way. If I encountered an undisturbed grave site, I would have two options. 1.) Collect things above ground for the purpose of preservation, maybe even documenting the location of grave markers and what they say before they are lost. 2.) Going at it with a shovel looking for valuables on the remains that I can pocket. One of these options is scientific, and in honor of those who were buried there. The other is motivated by personal profit alone.

So eerie to think it's been over 100 years, world wars, crisis, storms, everything that happened and that wreck has always been there, undisturbed from 1912. It really is a gravesite, many people died inside that ship, in their rooms, they went down with the ship. It would be highly disrespectful to destroy the site but I think if they can make sure that the damage they do to retrieve the historical radio won't make the structure collapse then it is acceptable. As long as they keep the piece in a public showroom. I would go ahead to saying that they should take even personal objects, but again not for the purpose of making profit, but to show and remember the lives that were lost. But of course for that, families should be asked for permission

I say salvage as much as possible, the memories of those lost will be remembered that much more with items to relate back.

@derekheeps1244

2 жыл бұрын

We can remember the event perfectly well without plundering the wreck

I fully advocate for salvage for the pure purpose of maintenance and education. Seeing things that are very old up close has been far more impactful compared to seeing it in the setting it’s not supposed to be in.

0:10 that little tug looks awful star struck xD

If they can save it they should, cause having the opportunity to do it but not doing it for sentimental reasons would be a huge misstake, and a missed opportunity that would echo through time.

I really need to say that this is a really tough question for me. I've been attracted to Titanic since I was 4 year of age (now am 23). Titanic is basicly the sole reason I'm studying nautic to become a Captain one day. On the one hand I agree that we should try to preserve artifacts from the Ship so future generation can understand what it was like 110 years ago. On the other hand when ever we visited the wreck to do reseach or raise artifacts, we damaged the wreck in one way or another. If we feel the need to raise artifacts we should do it with respect for the wreck and the people who died there on the night of April 15th 1912. The big problem with raising the Marconi Wireless radio is that it is inside of the wreck. I would approve of it if I knew that they would try to becareful with not damaging the wreck, like they did when they raised the "Big Piece". But since they allready told everyone that they are going to cut a hole into the wreck it allmost feels like they dont give a shit about the wreck anymore. And to make it even worse nobody even knows if the Marconi room wont collapse if we try to cut a hole into it. I just can't decide were I stand at the moment and only time can tell what Titanic Inc. will do, but I hope that they will not try to cut a whole into the ship.

@derekheeps1244

2 жыл бұрын

There is unlikely to be much left to salvage ; the wood frames of the various components will have rotted away , copper wires and coils will have either corroded away in the salt water or been consumed by similar organisms to the ones that are consuming the ship . It is likely to be a futile effort . Similar radio equipment would have been fitted to Olympic and would have been replaced during her years of service ; someone , somewhere probably has that apparatus .

Yes, we should retrieve the radio. We should not disturb personal items though. I think the engines should be salvaged as well.

How much of the Marconi wires do they plan to take out? Do the salvage crew also have planes of bringing the table up? By the way, Good talk on such a hardly debated subject.

@derekheeps1244

2 жыл бұрын

There won’t be much left to recover

As Ken Marshall said: Try to save as much as we can from the Titanic, before the wreck will collapse and destroy everything that is still intacct !

I think it's okay as long as the wreck is not damaged. In a few hundred years no one will care, we've raised entire wrecks like Wasa. But in a few hundred years the wreck will be gone. So let's do it now. Dr. Ballard has an excellent plan to preserve the wreck itself. Things like that should be funded from the profits. Dr. Ballard shows respect towards victims, he'd be the person to do it. Not those idiots damaging the wreck while landing their u boats on the wreck. It's history worth preserving. We use the amphitheatre for shows, where a hundred thousand were brutally murdered. Why is that fine? Time has passed... and as to personal items surviving family should get a say if there are any. In fact most bodies are removed from cemeteries to make space after 25 years or so. That's way more disrespectful. I agree that some salvage operations have been bad.

I also own a piece of coal from the Titanic. A bit silly considering it's just a piece of coal but I'm glad I have it regardless.

What would even be left of the Marconi wireless radio? The wooden enclosure would be rotted away. Possibly a few vacuum tubes and some of the copper wiring?

Robbing a fresh grave is called grave robbing. Taking things from an old one is called archeology. I won’t say what side I’m on the debate. Just that this quote fits.

Well, we excavate ancient grave sites, but this is a lot closer to us than somebody who lived 5,000 years ago. However, most of the people involved with the Titanic would have been somebody's great or great-great relative. I would say that it's okay to retrieve stuff un related to anyone, like: wood, furniture, glass, plates, etc.

I also disagree with the coal statement, to a degree. Much of that money was actually used to fund salvage operations to the wreck. These expeditions are not cheap, and they are why the wreck is only visited a few times within a year. Not many governments or private institutions like museums have the funds to charter the ship, the personnel, the submersibles, and everything that goes in with an expedition. There is tons of coal at the wreck site. And I mean a ton. If the sacrifice was using this as funds to preserve other substantial items, and further document the wreck, I see no issue with that.

It’s my personal belief that the bow and stern should not have anything salvaged from it. Everything should remain intact. I believe that we can explore and document as much as we can of the interior for future generations, and most of the dive crews have a general understanding that if any potential human remains are discovered, cameras are to be shut off immediately. I think the debris field is more of the area to salvage items for preservation. I think all of the items salvaged should remain in museum or public institution hands. Not sold to private buyers. The area around any shoes, where a body once lay, should also be avoided.

I would support recovering personnel artifacts for the purpose of reuniting said items with the family of the victim with permission of course

I remember reading somewhere that there's the grim possibility that there's bodies preserved within the inner decks of the ship, where only seawater & nothing else was able to enter. If that is the case, and we decide to start salvaging from inside the ship, do we have a moral obligation to retrieve & bury those victims? If not, is it then literal graverobbing? And if we act now, do we put at risk destroying things that could potentially be saved in the future with new technology? I don't know if we should retrieve items, but I would love to know as much as I can about this wreck, so I'm pretty torn...

@derekheeps1244

2 жыл бұрын

There are no remains after all this time ; any bodies would have long been consumed by organisms .

The most sensitive topic of them all. Doing my best to avoid writing another essay, I'm in the exact same boat as you are. If I may be brutally honest for a moment, I call baloney on the idea that we shouldn't even visit the wreck. That's the equivalent of saying that we shouldn't visit the graves of our relatives once they are buried. Nobody in their right mind says that. Nobody that I've met at least. Likewise with the grave robbing argument. Solid, valid point. But when you die, you don't take anything with you. It's hard to rob someone of something when that's the case, especially when they died before their time. As I've grown, I've since come to grips with the fact that raising the Titanic is out of the question at this point, both for the logistical reasons and ethical reasons. But ever since I first read her story, a fire has been burning within me in that I don't want to see this beautiful ship be destroyed. I want to do whatever is possible to save her, whether it's finding a way to keep the wreck preserved underwater, or in this case, recovering as much artifacts as possible before she's gone for good. There's nothing wrong with it as long as it's being done for the right reasons. If for example we are able to positively identify the personal belongings of an individual, whether they went down with the ship or not, and if the families so wish it, I would return them to them in a heartbeat. I know that's what I'd want. Recovering physical parts of her, specifically her hull and superstructure (so the Big Piece), is the only thing I'm not a fan of simply because it feels like a halfhearted effort to save her. If she's gonna go, let her go. I don't want to be given the arm of my dead relative when the rest of their body is doomed to the earth. And I don't want her to be destroyed even more than she already has. So when it comes to recovering the Marconi, again I'm in the same boat as you. I'd love to see it recovered, but the other side of me doesn't want it to come at the expense of the ship being further damaged. Surely there's a way to do it without that happening. End of the day though, there is one beacon of hope that I still have in the Titanic story. And that's that the wreck actually might not deteriorate. Yes it's happening as we speak, but what I mean is I think that she may actually remain with us until the end of time. Think about it: being a scientist is the one job where you can be wrong every time and still get paid. How many times have people said the Titanic is gonna be gone in so-and-so a year only to find that she's still here? Now, I may be 1004% wrong and am just grabbing at air at this point. But the story of the Titanic was as perfect as it gets, and you put it best in your Why We Remember video. I just can't imagine that it will end with the ship collapsing at the bottom of the ocean for good. At the end of time maybe. Heck, maybe even if/when another Titanic is built. But surely not now. Not like this. I think she'll stay as an eternal reminder of that night, our hubris, and our humanity. (dang it I wrote an essay but how else can I express my feelings? 😂)

That's a hard debate...

@TheGreatBigMove

2 жыл бұрын

What do you think, Fox?

I agree that personal items should be left. However, items like the radio set have great historical value and should be preserved. Items should not be obtained for profit other than the price of a ticket to see them on display.

At first, I misread the title and thought you'd said "SHOULD WE SALVAGE THE TITANIC?" and was about to jump in about how this was physically impossible... Honestly... I am okay with salvaging artifacts from Titanic, provided it isn't a for-profit endeavour. Exhibiting history for the world is a positive thing. Selling it for profit... Less so. Obviously, the difficulty factor is significant.

Good argument. Preserve what you can or lose it all forever. Only two options.

We don't leave dead bodies inside a crashed plane at the botton of the ocean because is a gravesite, people at the time didn't chose this place to be their gravesite.Just because the marconi radio or other artifacts are inside the ship doesn't mean that they are preseved and we can wait forever. Me personally i would prefer my belongings preserved or even sold illegaly 100 years after my death rather than lost and forgotten.

Yes! Save the Marconi radio. It is better to retrieve it than let it be crushed by the Titanic wreck.

I'm very much opposed to cutting into the wreck to retrieve artifacts only because they come from a a ship that is unsinkable only in memory. Those Marconi sets were new at the time, but there were many produced, so from a perspective of learning from the past, they have no real value. You can look up how they work easily on the internet now, you can find many in museums already. To echo Dr. Ballard, we knew everything about Titanic down to the numbers when she set sail. There is little to learn from the ship and the disaster that hasn't been already. To me, why Titanic is such an enduring tale is that it's one that can speak to everyone who has known the cost of hubris. So it's no surprise that in the tragedy we see a kind of parable of our own possible flaws. I know my opinion is only my own, but at this point, I just say visit the wreck and leave it to rust away. The only thing really left with the wreck is literal grave robbing.

Anything that is salvaged should go only to museums or other venues of public display. Selling for private collections, "no" For going deeper into the ship, use the rovers to look for victims. If there are no victims in the area than salvage should be OK, if there are any victim visible than that should be a "no go" area. One thing I would be OK with selling is the bits of coal in the debris field so people interested in the history of the could have a piece of the ship. In ending saving the radio for future interest would be great. Just thinking.......

I feel that it’s only acceptable to recover items so long that it does not permanently damage the wreck. Doing permanent damage to the wreck for the sole purpose of recovering an artifact is in a way selfish I think. Items recovered from the debris field do not put the structural integrity of the wreck at risk, and I feel like these items should be recovered for the purpose of displaying them. I’m not sure how I feel about the recovery of items for the purpose of selling them…If I had the means of doing so, I’d like to have an item from the wreck, so long as no harm was done to the wreck itself in the recovery of said item.

Some artifacts in and around the Titanic wreck have already been salvaged by Marine searchers and scientist

If the wreck was being preserved there on the ocean floor, then I'd say no. However, it is deteriorating at a rapid rate and within 20yrs will be nothing but a stain of rust. I disagree with Dr Ballard's view that salvage is akin to grace-robbing. Surly it is more respectful to the memories of those who perished to preserve as many artifacts as possible before they are gone forever

i think we should. but not cloths or personal things to the relatives unless they want it.

It's never to find the radio. The parts of the radio are small things so these can be lost during the 107 year gap due to seas. It's not worth to salvage the Marconi radio set. It may be lost