I rarely comment on Videos, but I had to like and mention that I really appreciate people like you on KZread who are not afraid to point out shortcomings :) Keep up the great work!

@scottweston8477

3 жыл бұрын

D Mos totally agree

@alexbiketester

3 жыл бұрын

No one else has on any review apart from Rob and me of course said anything.... Its so obvious when riding.... Long term to review properly you need to actually mention all aspects. Shimano will fix it before launch, but it will delay the launch for sure.

@scottweston8477

3 жыл бұрын

D Mos do you think all the other people that tested this bike felt under pressure to not mention the noise for some reason. I’ve just had a brand new Bosch 625W battery crap out on a 2021 Whyte, turns out to be a very common fault when you google it but never mentioned on any mainstream bike reviewers.

@_Furey_

3 жыл бұрын

@@scottweston8477 Sadly this is the world we live in. There are only a few people that do reviews that are trustworthy. And I'm very glad to see that Rob is one of them cause I enjoy his content. Look at Unbox Therapy now vs what it was? Now he is just glorified salesman.... I bought Giant bike a while ago. Watched ton of review. Noone mentioned that rear hub is falling apart but everyone knew who had this bike for more than a week....

@alexbiketester

3 жыл бұрын

@@scottweston8477 Ive not had the battery break in my bosch 2021, with 800km. so cant. answer that one, not heard any stories. No one was under pressure at all, but I think there is a lot of self censorship going on. The marketing team should respect you more if you tell the truth, there are ways of doing. you dont have to bitch about it, just say what it is and move on.

Hi Rob, let me tell you that as I was getting ready for my riding this evening I saw there was this new video but I had to put it off until later if I wanted to get back before sunset. Now I will enjoy watching it. I am sure it will be as good as the others. Thank you so much. From Almeria in Spain, you know

Thanks Rob, looking forward to the motor comparison video

Thanks Rob for another great and honest review. Watched the other EP8 videos after yours and especially the one from the big E*** channel seemed more like an ad. Sad. Please never lose that honesty!

@RobRidesEMTB

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks David. These bikes are so expensive - I couldn’t not mention things that I don’t like - it’s so important to share all the good and bad stuff.

I really like your ''independent'' approach. You dear to talk about the negatives. Way to go!! Thanks

Yes, I cant wait to see the big motor test!! great video as always

@RobRidesEMTB

3 жыл бұрын

Cheers Larry

Great unbiased review Rob👍🏻 I cant believe manufacturers produce a product with a big flaw like that rattle, I know there’s improvements etc and some people won’t be bothered but really when your paying out a lot of money you expect that product to be final and polished. Bosch and shimano really need to address these issues as to me it seems like a Friday afternoon build.

Nice Review, Thanks Rob, so good that you also tell, whats not so nice (rattling noice!!!) ...go on like this, and your reviews will be (are) "outstanding"

Great video. Just a note, power is measured in Watts whereas torque is measured in Newton Meters. So the EP8 has 85Nm of torque and 250 Watts of continuous power output. Keep up the good work!

Keep up the good work mate. You are right on time. Told my wife tonight that I can't wait to watch the new ebike vidz. I got the 1000 yard stare.... :)

Great video! But... The E8000 can also put out max torque in trail mode. I believe that was changed long ago after an update. You just have to push the bike harder to get the max torque whereas in Boost mode you get it instantly.

Be interesting to see if other manufacturers can get rid of this noise in some way. Agree with Rob I don't mind my e8000 noise when pedaling but I don't want that clattering when descending

@bocap1980

2 жыл бұрын

Get Warranty from shimano, my vlt range does the same, its very annoying.

Great video Rob, really aprecciate you give your sincere opinion about the EP8, showing also the things you did not like about it. Waitting for that motor comparison!! I ride a Brose motor and find the Bosch Gen4 not as smooth and natural as the Brose, not sure the EP8 will be better in that respect.

Looking forward to your demo of the display...especially since it meets your minimalist standard.

Thanks Rob, nice balanced summary. Seems that Shimano have focused on the "package" rather than any one area. So, with weight, noise, app and the fettled controls / display it's classic Shimano - evolution not revolution.

Nice overview, the new Commencal looks awesome and has this. But I'm loving my 2020 Levo with a 700wH. Love the content, amazing quality!

Can't wait to see the head to head testing 👍

My thumb up, of course. Good job, again. Please, Rob, don't pay attention to those thumbs down. We are many more !!

@franciscosegura1960

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks so much

Hey Rob Rides Emtb! Life is really triple good with two of your vids in one day! Rattles don't bother me when coasting as on my bike there are so many internal cables slapping around and other noises I just tune it out! Hope you are getting lots of good rides with your mates! Ride ride ride!

Brilliant assessment.

Great stuff Rob

Thanks Rob thats me out, back to looking at the new Bosch cheers mate good video. The Fazua is a beast on a roady with the Black pepper update BTW, I bought the Canyon Endurance ON for going to work on, I have a EMTB just waiting for Trek to pull their finger out so i can trade in and buy the Rail 5.

Nice work Rob

Bloody great breakdown mate. I’ll stick with the 90nm Brose on my Kenevo.

Good video like always! Thumbs up. But you only forgot 2 details. The new cables that connect the display motor etc are much thinner now so you can't use any of the e8000 stuff. And with the Merida bike there is a downside to the cables going Thrue the bars because where it comes out under the stamp the people cut it when they try to set up the Back sweep of the bars.... Ah and what I would really love to see In these test videos would be the service friendliness of Bikes! No one is putting this in there tests but it's such a huge point when you own a bike. Thanks and keep us entertained

You asked for the thumbs up gg you should ask at the beginning some people don’t make it to the end of the vidio. Great show keep up the good work

I would like to know how the EP8 compares to my Yamaha PW-X2 in my Haibike Xduro Allmtn 2.0. The new Yamaha motor is very quiet while pedaling and silent when you are not. It has 5 levels of assist with an automatic mode that works with the new Quad Sensor System that uses an angle sensor to detect the bike's angle of climb or descent, in addition to the toque sensor, cadence sensor, and speed sensor.

"More powerful at lower, slower cadences" ... Indeed. That's because it has more torque (85nm compared to 70nm).

No way could I live with that rattle from the motor 🤬😲 my Levo is silent. 🤟 Another great video Rob.

@TL-fn8iv

3 жыл бұрын

Still driving? My wife's Levo was repaired 3 times, and my friend's engine was replaced after six months ... Levo is overvalued like no other brand! Please talk with other users about brose s-mag or find forums chat..

@MrAndrew2509

3 жыл бұрын

@@TL-fn8iv I'm on my 3rd Levo, and love it. I own a Creo too, again it's fantastic. I must be one of the lucky ones. Or it could be that I look after my bikes and maintain them meticulously. Specialized are always going to have more problems, they sell more e-bikes than the rest put together. They also have the fastest turnaround if your bike breaks down. I was on my Levo today, and it's so smooth with no creaks or rattles. But hey if want to buy a bike that rattles like a bag of washers, carry on. I'm simply saying I couldn't live with such a bike. 🤟

@johnnyboy1586

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah but they just break

Great video as usual Rob. Even though I own a Levo I’m always excited when new stuff is released.....but that rattle in the motor? That would be a huge fat no for me as I like my bikes to be run as smooth as possible, that would do my head in! Why would any manufacturer think that’s acceptable?

Great content and quality yet again Rob. Hate noises on bikes so a backward step from E8000. Am I correct in thinking this motor is backwards compatible with the E8000 first gen motor for those who fancy more torque?

@zwiftfrance

3 жыл бұрын

I hope so

Great report, thx! Sensations are more important to the average user rather than chronos, which interest more professionals or super competitive guys.

@techtoth1

3 жыл бұрын

The rattling is appalling; it's not a "defining" noise like, for instance, old Ducatis' dry clutches, that, appear only at idle. Rattling while riding is annoying, and makes the bike feel like it's falling apart. Maybe a pre-series issue? Maybe it affects just some kind of frames? Who knows?

@techtoth1

3 жыл бұрын

The new app is great, though. It was quite time!

Super good review,awesome job but really disappointed about the rattle noise

Great vid Rob, very interesting to note that it has the ‘coasting rattle’ as in the Bosch gen 4. I’m thinking it won’t be an issue for most riders, especially when the motor is such a useful improvement over the 8000 series.

Thank you for this review ! In the past it felt like that the Shimano motors require higher pedal frequency than the Bosh (which I don't like, I prefer higher torque at slow frequency). Is it still the case ? This new Shimano look brillant (low noise and drag) and I could change my mind about my futur purchase. Furthermore the new Merida is beautifull ! Thanks for your feedback !

Awesome review, I hate noise too i would rather have it the old way that rattle sucks would drive me nuts🤣🤣🤣👍thanks Rob love the stuff u put out e bikes rule👍👍👍👍👍👍

I have this engine from one month ago with a focus and no any noise with the engine. I find him really more powerful then the Bosh

Great review, honest assessment, that rattle is 100% a deal breaker for me personally am looking to buy my first emtb . Would rather buy a bike with the old e8000 than hear that noise. Even go with an other manufacturer Brose etc 2020 and can't make a motor that doesn't rattle loudly poor really tbh.

@FWCaptain-kv6sm

3 жыл бұрын

Don’t not buy Brose. They’re garbage look it up. JUNK!

@T-Lens

3 жыл бұрын

@@FWCaptain-kv6sm Brose is the best. Look it up and test them. And yes, they have issues. But other brands also. Look that up too. At least Brose doesn't let their customers down. They even double the warranty @ Specialized and they do everything to fix their problems. Other brands often try to blame the customer if something goes wrong. Own experience with our group of e-mtb riders. So Philip, go out and test whatever you can before you buy. Only then you can make a good choice.

@hqgrummel

3 жыл бұрын

I have a 19 Kilo Focus Jam² Pro from 2018 with the E8000 and i thought the same with the rattling noise. Would have been a deal breaker for me too! My E8000 Motor is nice and quiet! Definitely can recommend the E8000, after more than 4000-5000 KM (30€ app to unlock topspeed) it runs like it did on day one and my Battery is at 97% Health. You can also personalize the assistance of the power modes with the E8000 like shown in this video. I still think these have been some rattling cables in the frame etc. Can not imagine Shimano of designing a rattling new motor for their E-MTB´s line.

@mova_2020

3 жыл бұрын

Go with Specialized and end all of this. Stronger motor, unbelievably silent and bigger battery. AND good news is that the Brose motor issues have been resolved on the 2021 models so buy with confidence BUT yeah they are expensive. Same as a Ferrari. When you buy that, you pay for the brand and technology so it is to be expected

@whistlerrealestate1

3 жыл бұрын

@@FWCaptain-kv6sm 100% correct. Garbage.

Rob great info as always. “Efficiency” is important with electric. How far can I go on EP8 630 combo. Will it go further than my mates Levo? (kg for kg)

@mova_2020

3 жыл бұрын

No it will be either less or equal to Levo at its best

Hi are you going to test ride the new meta power 29 or 27.5?

I ride an Orbea Rise h15 with Ep8-rs(60nm) less newton, less battery(540wh), lighter bike and no problem handling double km single track than my moterra neo 2 with bosch gen1. I just completed 3 ride with total 1000m climb of single track and 70k with 20% battery remaining. (Profile1). Its not always about power, a lighter bike and smoother power makes a very different ride, closer to legacy mtb riding. The shimano ep8-rs software is amazing.

Bloody hell, that rattle would be a deal breaker for me! Was really keen on the new Merida 8000. Such a well specd bike for the money 😥

@sebastianbraun2473

Жыл бұрын

Same for me. I spend a lot of time getting my bike (brakes, shifter, cables, etc. ) quite, so will defintely wont destroy the silence with this motor.

Hi, will you please comment a bit on the display options the EP8 comes with? I see Shimano has released the newest SC-Em800, however many new bike specs call out the older sc-E7000 display paired to the ep8, like the Merida e160 8000 you tested. How that and any limitation in features in case (eg. dual profile selection or any function disabled?). In my opinion this spec mix looks crazy by principle and would be disappointing if also limiting sone new SW functionality. Thanks a lot.

Fix the rattle, fine-tune the software. Then it's probably the best motor on the market. Bosch it way too noisy for me and the Brose belt has had some issues. Currently running Brose T motor and very happy with it, but wouldn't mind an "EP9" in the future. Always been a Shimano fan over Sram.

Newton-meters is not a measurement of power...or powah either. Raising peak TORQUE to 85 Nm says nothing about power.

@1spiders1

3 жыл бұрын

If a force is used to begin to spin an object or stop it torque is made. The units of torque are force multiplied by distance. So yeah it’s power output.

@matthewraymond3845

3 жыл бұрын

@craigsj Agreed. I always think back to my motorcycle racing days and the equation "power (hp) = torque (lb-ft) x rpm ÷ 5,750". You can use any units you want but the formula principle is the same. For example, a motor spinning at 60 rpm at 85 N-m produces exactly half the power of a motor spinning at 120 rpm at 85 N-m. This means that power output is more complex than simply quoting the torque figure. The motor gear reduction ratio and its usable rpm range must be taken into account. To get even more precise, the torque curve has to be reviewed even though electric motors tend to have very flat curves.

@craigsj

3 жыл бұрын

@@1spiders1 No, a torque is not "power output". Power is work done per unit time. Where is time in your "force times distance"? Power is torque times angular velocity. Also, in your examples of spinning and stopping an object, there is inherently time involved as well as angular velocity either being added or removed. Therefore, both power and torque exist in those examples but they are not one in the same.

@craigsj

3 жыл бұрын

@@matthewraymond3845 Yes, exactly, and while electric motors can have flat torque curves, eMTB ones do not once all things are factored in. Manufacturers quote torque figures because they really don't want blowback from quoting power figures. Thing is, of you increase peak torque without increasing peak power then you lower your apparent high cadence support. If one motor feels "punchier" than another it could be a variety of things, but it is unlikely peak torque that's the difference. Peak torque really isn't that hard to achieve on its own. Motors with good low-rpm torque and efficiency will run out of battery voltage at high cadences. There's a reason why every motor out there has limitations.

@therealalphamale4716

3 жыл бұрын

Torque is not power...

Nice video,will the new App work with the E8000? Thanks

I'm going to buy an ebike with ep8 but they offer only the 504Wh for that frame. Shimano says that ep8 is optimized so do you maybe know if the 504 Wh on ep8 offers a longer ride or I shouldn't rather wish that?

Can you bolt new motor into old bikes and would you need new wiring to battery and can you still use 500 watt with new motor any price yet

That clatter... Wow... They went cheap on not including an anti backlash spring.

@scottweston8477

3 жыл бұрын

Wuhan Health Organisation agreed, I’m sure they will modify that pretty quickly

@akabukiman

3 жыл бұрын

I think we should wait for the reviews of others brands bikes before declaring it a general motor problem. But yeah, this would suck a lot more than any motor sound could ever do.

@TeamCykelhold

3 жыл бұрын

It's quite strange. Generally Shimano doesn't cheap out on components like that, it's a very odd thing for a Shimano component.

Similar clattering noise with E7000. The chainring also has lateral play about 1mm, which shimano said it is within the specc. How about EP8? Any lateral play when you push the chainring with both thumbs? You can check my video, to see if you can hear the rattling noise. It's there, but not too bad, I get used to it.

Hi Rob Have you heard if they are going to release the ep8 as I have heard it has been recalled. Due to cracking Casings.

I heard somewhere that they were recalling this EP8 motor, is this ture? Also, it there a way I can find out, or is there a list of all bikes with the Bosch Motor?

Hey Rob thanks for your review on the new Merida. I thought it was interesting on one of your comments about motor noise. That you would of, if you had to have a motor noise you would of preferred it to have the noise on the peddling phase in comparison to when you are coasting . But we peddle 75- 85% of the time. I suppose it depends on where you live. Great reviews love your unbiased opinions.

Reliability is the main question as currently a few motors have poor reputations. Basically we'll know when we see what the warranty period is... if it's something really short like 1 or 2 years then we will know.. they are sealed units and although exceptionally simple engineering wise are not user serviceable so you're at the mercy or of the limited warranty they offer. Is the rattle just your test unit or are they all like this.. presumably you've reached out to Shimano?

Did not understand why so many people are complaining about how noisy the new Bosh gen4 is. I have Cube Stereo 160 TM and noise level seems fine to me. Seeing this video I hear the same noise on new Shimano EP8 when riding uphill. And Shimano saying it is one of the most silent e-bike motors.

If I can out last the Levo-lemon of a motor I might try it

Can this EP8 be had using the 504 battery or only comes with the 630?

Is there much involved in derestricting or removing the cut off?

What have you heard about the Santa Cruz new mullet Mx e bike? Coming in November

Will the new motor retro fit an old bike where the e8000 was installed?

Sweet 50-60 rpm my own sweet spot for max output Now which bend bike to buy

That clacking motor sound would drive me insane. That can't be right. Pre-production motor maybe?...

There talking about drag in the cranks for pedaling

Looking forward to the motor comparison. It seems to me that the specialized (turbo Levi) is still on top on everything else, If they manage to solve the reliability issue...

Is the app goin gto be retro compatible with the Steps e8000?

Thanks for your honest review Rob. I am so glad we have people like you who aren't sell outs just because they are invited by MFGs. I have been waiting to see this motor to see if it was worth waiting for over a Bosch.

Good and HONEST review.

@RobRidesEMTB

3 жыл бұрын

Trying to tell it like it is!

Makes sense

Do you know if it's backward compatible with the E8000?

that noise is a deal breaker and an experience ruiner. I really cant see how they allowed a motor to make such an awfull noice

@612shadowybic

3 жыл бұрын

I just bought a Merida 8000 with EP8 and the noice is barley noticeable. It’s the smallest click when a push on and off the peddles. It’s been so exaggerated on the internet. I have the 8000 before and the EP8 is light years ahead. I’m so happy with my new bike!

@dit4963

3 жыл бұрын

@@612shadowybic , you call this "barely noticeable" kzread.info/dash/bejne/gp2jpbxtg9K8dLg.html You might need a hearing test...or what rattle cans have you ridden before?

@Shakshuka69

2 жыл бұрын

If Yeti chose this motor to put in their $15,000 bike and Transition chose it for their $11,000 bike I'm going to assume the clacking noise complaints are either blown out of proportion or marginally different between motors

The Q factor of the e8000 is also 177mm, fyi

Damit - held of buying a Bosch cos of the rattle.. hoping the EP8 would be ok noise wise but its even worse than it was... small % improvement here, small % improvement there... but now sounds like you have strapped a loose bag of spanners to your bike... Ridiculous

Is it just me or does the chainstay om the merida look scratched right behind the chainring? I would be dissapointed if my new carbon 8K bike got scrathed at once. Maybe itś just dirt.

Any idea if the EP8 has the ability to tell me how many watts Im putting out?

Bosch performance cx paired with a 625w battery is my No1 choice.Never liked the feel of the E8000.

6:51 what most of you probably came to hear :)

Just got the new Norco range and I don’t hear that rattle going down

Nice upgrade, shame about the clattering

Hi Rob, have you had any confirmation from shimano or merida that the rattle you heard is normal? I'm asking because Trek have had multiple issues with battery rattle in their Powerfly and Rail bikes due to batteries being misaligned from the factory. This is evidenced by the "Retailer Bulletin" that they released providing stores with instructions on how to fix the battery rattle. Is the rattle really from the motor? Or could it possibly be a loose battery mount from the factory or loose motor mount. I know from previous experiences rattles that come from brake calipers, batteries, mounts, etc.. can reverberate through the frame and make it sound like it's coming from the bottom bracket or motor. Has anyone else who has ridden the new motor reported this rattle? If rattles like this on all bikes it would be very surprising.

@RobRidesEMTB

3 жыл бұрын

Hi Kevin. I’ll be testing a few more Shimano EP8 bikes this week. It’s something I’ll be checking out for sure! Quite a few other testers have also noticed this rattle also (see ebike-mtb.com and kzread.info/dash/bejne/dnye17CLhJrUhbQ.html )

@Kevin_Aus

3 жыл бұрын

​@@RobRidesEMTB Thanks! Fair enough. I have a 2019 Powerfly and it has required some tweaks but when freewheeling down rough DH tracks there is zero noise from the battery/motor/frame with the Gen2 bosch motor, but I had to totally strip the frame and rebuild to achieve that. Running stock from the factory it seems all powerfly's or rail's rattle and that battery rattle gets worse over time no matter what.

I have the Commencal metapower 29 with the ols steps e8000 motor and I hate the motor noise but that rattling noise is way worst!!! I'm very picky with all the crunchy and rattling noises and that noise in your video is way worst than the regular noise of the e8000.

Where is that chain guide going!,

That rattle is a deal breaker for me.

is it more or less rattley than the bosch? Because I found that insane...felt like bike was falling apart on Trek Rail

How can they let the motor go to market like that? I've been waiting and waiting on EP8 because I hate how noisy, in a very similar way, my Gen 4 Bosch is. I don't want to go back to the shop once every 3 months with a Brose for a replacement from Spesh, so starting to think this only leaves Yamaha... !

Will it get an update?

Which one do you prefer bosch gen 4 or the new shimano?

@RobRidesEMTB

3 жыл бұрын

Bosch to me feels like it has more PUNCH but I need to do more testing! Shimano is lighter and more compact. Shimano has a much better integration with the screen and controller.

@DKLVE

3 жыл бұрын

Wow I agree!! Very disappointing that rattle sound☹️...... would also prefer that noise going uphill or even better with no noise at all.🙈

As fare ad I know 8000 can be replaced by ep8 as they are "mechanically equal". Of so I think this Is another plus for manufacturer but also for bike owner 😁

I don't get the obsession with more power. I have a e8000 and it's more than enough, in fact I hardly ever use trail let alone boost only on really steep section. I do however like the new software. Hopefully they can update the e8000.

@spiral99able

3 жыл бұрын

eplus has similar app for 8000

How do i put walk mode on please on ep8 ??

The rattle on my bike is a deal-breaker: kzread.info/dash/bejne/gp2jpbxtg9K8dLg.html To me it is mind-boggling that #ShimanoEbike decided that this is a product ready to be brought to market...on >6k bikes. And a product that you are stuck with it, no way to change it. Thanks Rob for calling it out! This is what a bike reviewer should do. Shimano should be pushed until they make a #ep8 recall or come up with a compromise solution!

How come Steve Jones on embn didn't pick up on this rattle problem or is it best to keep quiet, which isn't good if you are spending stupid money on a bike you have never seen in the flesh or ridon,thanks Rob for letting us know

@RobRidesEMTB

3 жыл бұрын

Not sure - it’s possible that he didn’t hear it, many people don’t hear it - notice it depending on the terrain they ride on. Personally I’m always aware of bike noises so I always pick up on them (not saying that this is a good thing or bad thing, it’s just what I perceive / hear). Also have ridden the bike for just over 160km so a decent amount of distance to pick up on these things.

Can you swap an e8000 with an ep8

what is the app called?

@6:52 *"Clatterin' Noise"*

So its less power compared with bosch ?

@RobRidesEMTB

3 жыл бұрын

Doesnt feel as punchy as the Bocsh. I think the Bosch would win in a drag race up a steep hill! I will test this out to find out which is more powerful.

Rolling road dyno Rob , its time . Put some bikes on a dyno , use a pro rider who can put out consistent power for hours . Bosch gen4 85nm , EPower8 , Levo 2.1 , PWX2 , it has to be done !! and oh Shimano i was loving everything till you dropped the ball, shattered it and packed the pieces into your lovely motor to rattle all the way down the trail, that is really annoying , like a creak behind a dash board in a car or cable slap to the power of Greyskull.

I bought an EP8 Bike to replace my E6000 Shimano one, and in some ways I am disappointed with it, the worst when reaching 25 KPH on the flat, it's like I have put the brakes on and it's hard to get any more speed from it compared to the E6000, also it feels that I have to put more effort into it once it is got over the initial start off (which is good), the E6000 felt a lot looser to ride, downhill the speed over 25KPH is OK. I tend to ride in Trail mode most of the time as Eco is too week, yet the E6000 I rode in Eco mode most of the time with no problems.

Is it still easy to derestrict? That's all I care about...well mostly

@-Ola-.

3 жыл бұрын

kevin6666123 according to shimano, the software is supposed to detect any tuning attempts, and not accept it... Total dealbreaker to me 😂🙈

the 2019 Levo has a 700 w/hr with 90 nm...isn't the Specialized still better than this new Shimano?

@blakkpatron

3 жыл бұрын

That depends on what you define as better. How much does the brose package(battery+motor) weigh in comparison to the Shimano package. Reliability is another factor which only time will be able to determine. Power delivery is another important aspect. As you see there's a number of factors that goes into determining what system is the best and more importantly what system suits your use case/needs.

@canieto1

3 жыл бұрын

Hey Rob great review! Would you happen to know if we can buy just the motor and put it into a YT decoy 2019 as an upgrade, for example?

@b-manz

3 жыл бұрын

From experience on multiple systems I would say you have to ride them to get your ideal and forget about the numbers. Even within Bosch systems one can be faster / slicker than another one with the same motor and a different controller. Not always the ‘better’ one is actually better.

whats the app called