There is a scripting error from the original that I totally forgot to correct - I point to Minnesota’s “Sudanese” population when I should have said Somali. It doesn’t affect the argument, but I should have corrected it.

@GilesMcRiker

Жыл бұрын

Heh, pretty sure I was the one, perhaps among others who pointed out that petty picadillo (which is completely understandable considering you don't live in North America, although you may have made an enemy in ilhan Omar)

@simonhadley8829

Жыл бұрын

What's your problem with Omar?

@LuxisAlukard

Жыл бұрын

Does confusing one black African nation with another black African nation makes you a racist? =)

@GeraltofRivia22

Жыл бұрын

@@simonhadley8829 she's a far left crazy?

@larrymoran_THE_CODGER

Жыл бұрын

@@simonhadley8829 December 15, 2022 - She is a first generation American, a daughter of immigrants that were welcomed with open arms, by an America that Leftist/Marxist/Socialist Omar and her "squad" hate. She's a racist.

I rewatched LOTR recently and noticed how there even the people of Gondor and Rohan look slightly different - in Gondor they tend to look like Boromir, brown hair and eyes, while in Rohan most of them tend to be blond like Eowyn or Eomer. You can even see it during the Helm's deep siege. It's such a good and realistic neat little detail, it's really like how you cross a border, or hell, even go two villages over, and people tend of have a certain and different look/features. Amazing how much attention went into even the casting of background extras.

@englishlady9797

Жыл бұрын

In the books, Boromir and Faramir are both described as having dark rather than brown hair. Aragorn is an interesting case, as he is of pure Numenorian ancestry and a descendant of the line of Elros. Before Elros though, he was descendant of the House of Beor. Beorans were said to have dark hair and either blue or dark coloured eyes, but those of the line of Elendil were known for their dark brown to black hair, blue eyes and height. Since the Rohirrim were based on the Anglo-Saxons their look in the movies is about right. Gondor was supposed to be somewhere more like Italy or Asia Minor.

@jonbaxter2254

Жыл бұрын

Morons think white people all look "the same"

@xLeeroycranex

Жыл бұрын

Exactly. Minas Tirith and Osgiliath are meant to represent a Constantinople type city. The people there are more Mediterranean looking.

@Minette203

Жыл бұрын

@@englishlady9797 bruh im taking your word for it, I read LOTR when I was 9, so I dont remember these kinds of details. My point is the careful extras-casting anyway, it's such a stark contrast that they went to the lenths of paying attention even to dominant hair color in an area, let alone rolling the randomiser dice on race.

@holzbierproductions9153

Жыл бұрын

@@xLeeroycranex Hey mate! I studied Archeology and I can tell you a Constantinople Type would mean all types of looking to be honest. It was an international mega city of it's time (or times till today) and it's graveyards represent this pretty good. Even in viking age Birka (Sweden) we have an extreme genetical diversity in the burial grounds. And this was a village compared to southern metropolises. I would have loved it to see this in Minas Tiriths streets. Seeing people from everywhere including Harad. Medieval wars were different from modern ones. Civilians, Traders still had contact and Gondor had times of peace with it's neighbors in the Lore. And Tolkien mentioned it so often, that it seemed important to him, that the different tribes of men mixed very much as soon as they founded new realms. He was a historian and in the middle ages people did not identify themselves by race, but by their ranks and lords. So Numenoreans became Gondorians and Arnorians prett fast. Anorians became people of Cardolan, Rudaur pretty fast and people of Eotheod became the people of Rohan easily. And even though cultural history is important in tolkiens world, it is always mixing with the new traditions of a new Realm and culture. Those cultures who focus to much on the past, on ancestry and purity, those fall. Like Numenor or Gondor and so on. So it's not about ethnics. It's about Realms.

Another problem is the haircuts. How do they get an epic fade and maintain it perfectly in a fantasy without electric trimmers?

@captainsalty5688

Жыл бұрын

😆

@TroySpace

Жыл бұрын

"It's a FANTASY world, ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE!!!" Reminds me of Naruto, where they have horse-drawn APCs and orange ninja outfits with zippers.

@robertbryant4669

Жыл бұрын

@@TroySpace Reminds me of a clip from the Simpsons, where Lucy Lawless is answering questions from nerds about the technical inconsistencies of Xena: "Anytime you see something like that, a wizard did it."

@mobetter2705

Жыл бұрын

Actually it can be done. In boarding school we had a guy who could do awesome fades with scissors, a razor blade and a comb. But I get what you mean.

@csmedia5279

Жыл бұрын

To be fair, "all medieval men are beared, long, haired or bald" is a movie trope, there are clean hair cuts since the old roman empire, women also bleached their hair in urban societies. Unfortunately, RoP doesn't seem to have a consistent look or style for their cultures.

I loved this part of your critique, it summed up a lot of my issues with how people treat diversity in medieval fantasy, especially works inspired by Western fantasy aspects. As a Filipino, I would get super miffed if you made a show set in a Filipino-inspired fantasy world and suddenly introduce white people or black people into the mix for no other reason than "we need more colors on screen". My thesis is actually a short story collection exploring a world inspired by pre-colonial Philippines, and my version of diversity within it is a mix of cultural diversity (because there are so many indigenous tribes in the Philippines) and racial diversity with races like dragonkin, volcano dwarves, merpeople, or the forest spirits. Love your stuff man and I'm really glad I found your channel.

@imransadovic3600

Жыл бұрын

Your thesis stories sound really cool and interesting. If you are writing in English, would there be a way I could read some of them?

@thuglifebear5256

Жыл бұрын

Well forget the white people, they'd just insert random black people into it. It'd be just like them to shove random Africans into ancient China.

@queenberuthiel5469

Жыл бұрын

Oy ang galing! Pwede pabasa ng thesis mo? Haha. Hala seryoso, interesado po ako. At for once or for some time naman huwag madeadma ang Philippine Mythology. 🥰 Or kahit yung intro oy! 😂 Pabasa please.

@sgt.viktorreznov3rdshockar238

Жыл бұрын

@@queenberuthiel5469 Just finished with my proposal for it. Hoping it gets approved so I can get to work in my second sem.

@sgt.viktorreznov3rdshockar238

Жыл бұрын

@@imransadovic3600 At some point I'll publish them on AO3 or Wattpad since I have accounts in both. One day.

As someone who has done a fair share of traveling across the world, avoiding big cities and tourist hotspot, preferring the farmlands, woodlands, countryside and other remote areas where the "real" people of the countries are based... You are so on point ! Regions are NOT diverse but very homogenous yet, the world IS very diverse, and that right here is the beauty of diversity. Going from one place to another to discover an entirely new culture, architecture, people, nature and way of life. This is the real world, this is what makes diversity interesting.

@fabienherry6690

Жыл бұрын

Yeah those guys promote diversity by making everyone the same . Everywhere thing should be done the same way the same portion of each skin color should be included and the same view on the world ...

@jaccat4336

Жыл бұрын

Exactly! They had an opportunity to create interesting diverse cultures. But instead they made every place look like modern America. In claiming to be more diverse, they actually made it a lot less diverse.

@jamesforbes5616

Жыл бұрын

Yes the 'diverse' world the activists see is this incredibly boring homogenous slurrly of races all mixed together and whizzed up in a food processer until they resemble some off beige goop. I once read an article about how North American peoples would look by say, 2100. And they'd come out with everybody would be this not quite brown, not quite white, coloring with facial features that suggested a hundred different ethnic ancestories and they predicted that more or less EVERYONE would look like this. I imagine culturally we'd have a similar whizzed up offering as well. And nothing would be different anywhere on the continent. And we'd all be the same and that would be utopia. And some how... It just seemed sad to me. Not because i'm white and I don't like colored people but because there would be nothing special about ANYONE left. Nothing unique about different groups of people. And that's just sad.

@littlestarshepherd

Жыл бұрын

@@fabienherry6690 It also makes no sense because it doesn't even acknowledge what created this beautiful diversity in the first place. Environment is a major factor in evolution, and the color of the skin, form of the eyes and so on, it's not just for looks, it's all about adaptation and the survival of the human race.

@jackdaws7125

Жыл бұрын

Spot on. Been saying for a while how ironic it is that in their way of making diversity as “everyone everywhere is basically the same” they kill the actual diversity. No place is different than the other except for name and location. What makes each place diverse gets lost and everything feels the same

Idk why they didn’t go for stories about the easterlings, Or the areas away from the main middle earth, Instead of just butchering the main story of the rings and sauron

@LostChord

Жыл бұрын

They sort of did, though, which is the weird thing. All the Southlands stuff is set where Tolkien described the people’s as being of darker skin. But the writers thought, nah, we’ll just do a raffle and see who gets to live there.

@whitegoose2017

Жыл бұрын

@@LostChord I do believe that Southrons or the Haradrim are further to the south beyond Mordor. Then there's the Easterlings who are to the east and north-east of Mordor.

@spinlok3943

Жыл бұрын

Its such a missed opportunity too! I would LOVE to see those areas explored and yes it would bring diversity into the show but in a proper context!

@backisgabbeYT

Жыл бұрын

@@LostChord They seemed to be quite close to Orodruin which is only as far south as Anorien and the Eastfold (Though the Eotheod of the Eastfold come from the north so I guess the middle men would look like Dunlendings)

@dv4975

Жыл бұрын

@@LostChord”darker of skin” yes. Not Black!

The fact that dark-skinned races actually exist in the lore but they didn’t use that is makes me sad. I’ve complained about this exact thing before in different fantasy media and I’m so glad to see someone else say it. It annoys me so much to whenever I see black Arthurian characters on my Tumblr feed from the blog I follow when non-white characters exist in the legends. It’s even more annoying when a movie like The Green Knight does it.

@friedrichwagner8716

Жыл бұрын

Your Sadness is their goal!

@RabiyaRavenclaw

4 ай бұрын

The dark skin races in Tolkien's lore all are depicted as Evil/Bad.

As someome who lives in a town of 2000 people, thank you. We have from little to no diversity here, not because our town would hate different people, but because this is a small town in northern Europe.

@jakobplobeck8006

Жыл бұрын

Snälla va inte dansk

Tolkien was a linguist at an extremely high accurate level; if anyone would have had extensive knowledge of the origins of people and their languages it's him. For the showrunners of The Rings of Power to think they could do it better than he could is pretty arrogant - but then, if the plot and character 'development' in this show is anything to go by, they thought they could do a lot of things better than Tolkien.

@unpopularopinion5022

Жыл бұрын

tolkien was not remotley accurate in his work , his level of detail was mostly vague

@raven75257

3 ай бұрын

Or in other words: Sheer fucking hubris

@noellethomas2589

5 күн бұрын

Tolkien also believed in race as material reality, which has been disproven, and a metaphysical and immutable English spirit, which is barely different from Nazi blood and soil bullshit.

You described perfectly my thoughts on all this "diversity" issues. Either due to ignorance or due to a certain agenda, many modern writers disregard the fact that, in most fantastic settings, populations wouldn't usually mix with one another, resulting in homogeneity. Hell, even nowadays, it would be difficult to find that kind of diversity even in big cities from a lot of countries, like Eastern Europe, Asia or Africa. And not only that, there's another problem with that, IMO: their insistence on including that kind of diversity in the most well known tales and myths of European origin, without any proper research, which breaks suspension of disbelief, as the video points out. Made even worse by the fact that, with enough research, they would be able to find characters that could fit what they want exactly (just like with the Numenorians in the video). Want an African character in your Arthurian epics? Why cast a black actor as Lancelot when you have Morien, an actual dark-skinned knight? Want a different flavor, tired of Arthurian myth? Go get Ruggiero, from Orlando Innamorato and Orlando Furioso: one of the main characters of another chivalric epic, who happens to be from North Africa as well. Or even better: there are hundreds, thousands of tales from outside of Europe worth being told, myths and legends from Africa, Asia and pre-colonial America. Many of them with strong women as their main characters, double win! But no, those aren't well known to the average North American, there's no point in writing about those, am I right?

@KreatedbyKrause

Жыл бұрын

This is historically inaccurate. There is numerous evidence going back to the Bronze Age that populations from different locales intermingled.

@HarverTheSlayer

Жыл бұрын

@@KreatedbyKrause Of course populations intermingled, but certainly not to the extend of what we're used to in modern society, and it's not even close. And, in most cases, that "intermingling" came in the form of slavery or conquest, as that was the main way people from one ethnicity became part of a different one. No one in their sane mind would say that NO ONE had any kind of relationship with different countries or even continents (hell, some of the tales I mentioned talk precisely about that), but it certainly was way more difficult and way less common that it is nowadays, due to a combined lack of technology and means for the vast majority of the population. You wouldn't have found thousands of black people in Scandinavia during the Middle Ages, for example.

@jmgonzales7701

Жыл бұрын

hmm in eastern europe specifically russians i tend to see slavic and some asian looking minority that tend to mix or at least co exist with. I also observe that russians are more open to mixing with asians compare to other europeans. Is there a reason to that? is it due to familiarity? so maybe what they can apply in these stories is maybe some cultures are more open to some sort of tribal mixing with other tribes they are allied to or at least familiar with.

@HarverTheSlayer

Жыл бұрын

@@jmgonzales7701 Well, Russia extends from the Baltic sea all the way to the4 Pacific Ocean. It is a neighboring country to both Finland and Japan, put that into perspective: Russia is MOSTLY an Asian country. And the Soviet Union included countries like Mongolia and Kazakhstan, and saw many internal forced (as well as willing) migrations. They're way more used to Asians than Western Europe for obvious reasons.

@jmgonzales7701

Жыл бұрын

@@HarverTheSlayer thats not how it works chief. being asian is more than geography. Australia is a continent of its own yet it is a European country. "russia is mostly an asian country" not really when the population lives in the European part. Plus those ethnic minorities arent russian anyways. but i guess it makes sense that they are a little bit more open. weird but it is what it is.

the weirdest thing is when you have parents and children being completely different races, which is something the rings of power does a lot of

@gregoryschweitzer1735

2 ай бұрын

I entirely agree. I mean mixed race children do exist and all that but in a medieval fantasy setting they would be extremely rare or nonexistent.

@SwfanredLotr

Ай бұрын

Same with King Triton suddenly having a daughter of each etnicity.

A hilarious unintended consequence of this show is the implied racial genocide of middle earth between ROP and LoR. I only say hilarious because I bet the show runners would drop dead if someone told them the implications of their choices.

Great points. While watching Wheel of Time and Rings of Power I felt like I was walking through Times Square in NYC. This form of diversity is contrary to both reality and the intent of the authors. But as you said, this is the only type of diversity that these people know.

@whitegoose2017

Жыл бұрын

It's not a show. It's just America with a Lord of the Rings setting & theming. They've even got American talking points in the show. "Elves are going to steal your trade". Derp. Tolkien would've gotten a stroke.

@knutolavbjrgaas1069

Жыл бұрын

Not to mention in the WoT books, the two rivers actually ends up super diverse(in a completely believable and natural way) with all the refugees coming in and settling down there.

@matttrevers2552

Жыл бұрын

@@knutolavbjrgaas1069, that's exactly why this shoehorned-in diversity is so self-defeating. Not only does it undermine any worldbuilding attempt, it robs the showrunners of the opportunity to actually say something interesting about ethnic diversity and migration.

This part of your full critique video certainly deserves its own video. Such brilliant editing! 15:40 "You've gotta tick these boxes," shows a quill crossing a line on parchment "If you don't like these boxes being ticked," shows the middle-aged hobbit couple with the smiling white-haired guy as his grumpy wife approaches "you are probably a racist" with the R word coinciding exactly with her head turn and angry glare. You are spoiling us with your überwitty content!

How to fix diversity in Middle Earth: Make people look like the races they actually come from, and maybe just include a few from places like Rhun and Harad where they do look different to Numenoreans and the other peoples of the West? How hard would that have been?

@OKMBVideos

Жыл бұрын

Funnily enough, they do exactly this in the Shadow of War game. There's one dark-skinned character in the base game, and his name is Baranor. His lore is that he was born in Harad, and was given as a hostage to Gondor to secure peace. His parents died and never came back for him, so he was left by himself and grew up in Minas Ithil alongside his adoptive parents. And it's perfect. He's actually given a reason to be in the game that fits with the lore of the rest of the franchise. His own DLC, Desolation of Mordor, has him link back up with other Harads and his brother, who are all dark-skinned like Baranor.

@MrTurok999

Жыл бұрын

@@OKMBVideos Helps that Baranor's DLC slaps fucking hard as well, Shadow of War might be an absolute mess of Tolkiens lore overall (Kusarigama wielding Asian ringwraith twins?????) but Baranor was brilliant and would absolutely love to see more of him.

As somewhat of a purist, while I wouldn't be happy with the changes from what we have of Tolkien's works, I would still acknowledge that treating diversity as you propose would be perfectly compatible with the production of a good, entertaining show.

@JH-zs3bs

Жыл бұрын

According to Tolkien himself, the men populating Khand are dark of skin, also the Easterlings are different from the men of the West. Gondorians are different in looks from the Rohirrim and the Northlings they stem from. The Hobbits used to be 3 distinct populations, one of them described as darker and with beards, the other beardless and of lighter skin. They all mixed in the Shire to become one population, but the differences could still be seen in some families.

@sergeydoronin1579

Жыл бұрын

Considering the amount of bullshit I see in fantasy settings (orphanages and nuclear families in medieval pseudo-Europe; the diversity of vegetables and fruits that were separated IRL; nonsensical warfare (the list goes on)) I'm barely phased by the skin color.

Having listened to one of Brandon Sanderson's classes, populating a world with people who actually seem like they'd live there is a huge part of story telling. You can't just put whomever you want wherever you want because it breaks the universe it's set in.

Adding to that, especially ancient times where tribes and regions had at most a merchant or traveller that depicted the difference between that traveller and the town or country they were currently in. It just pains me that the current world building wants to always reflect their current situation to a story where, like you said, you can have multiple cultures in the story but if you don't allow it to make any sense to that simple rule, well then you're stuffed it.

@sono_chi_no_sodium_chlorid7635

Жыл бұрын

Modern Americans really believe that black and native american vikings were a thing. So what do you expect?

@muliph3633

Жыл бұрын

If I can recommend anything I would recommend on netflix Dark and 1899

@jasongerke

Жыл бұрын

@@sono_chi_no_sodium_chlorid7635 There literally were, though. Not native Americans, because America didn't exist yet so that makes no sense, but black, brown, and Asian people were all throughout Europe at the time, including Scandinavia. You've been tricked by Hollywood only casting white people in the past.

@sono_chi_no_sodium_chlorid7635

Жыл бұрын

@@jasongerke America didn't exist I can confirm that. Kinda wish it still didn't

I never really got into LOTR but a friend of mine raved about ROP and the Silmarillion so I gave a shot to ROP. From what I had understood: 1) Numenor was an island so far west from mainland it’s very unlikely foreign sailors would adventure themselves in that area unless their purpose is Numenor 2) Numenor had been isolated for thousands of years and had no contact with other humans So the Melting Pot on Numenor really confused me. It got me wondering about the size of the island and the amount of people living there, because alone on an island for thousands of years, you’d expect people to have a lot of common ancestors, growth is exponential. At some point I was actually wondering if Numenor merchants sailed back and forth to Middle Earth.

@backisgabbeYT

Жыл бұрын

You have drawn good conclusions. Numenor is both far west and south but it's a land gifted to the men who fought for good during the first age and those are the only ones who live there for millennia. The Elves traded with Numenor for a long time but Numenor grows more isolationist with time. Numenor are famous for the maritime culture and have many colonies in Middle Earth that trade with the island. We are told Numenor is 4 times as big as Switzerland or half as big as Germany, so quite large, we know that the navy in the late second age had 1000 ships which is 3 times the size of the UK's Royal navy in 1794 (Though British ships would probably be bigger than Numenorean) and at the time the UK had about 10 million inhabitants. According to Tolkien Gateway the population could've reached 15 million.

@jmgonzales7701

Жыл бұрын

@@backisgabbeYT thats so well detailed, didnt know that numenor was that big.

@savioblanc

Жыл бұрын

Your friend raved about ROP? You might want to reconsider this friendship

This is a really well made video! I dont think the writers really understand that most of us are not against diversity, but we are against it when its done poorly. Its really weird when you have an all white ethnic group with a sudden SINGLE black character. It really stands out. House Velaryon in House of the Dragon did a really good job at it. They were a clear ethnic group that held a lit of power. It was so beleiveable and it helped shape the world nicely in my opinion. Rings of power on the other hand really likes to just throw in ONE important black character randomly in a group of mostly white characters. Its so fucking weird.

This is a great video. The only thing is that even milenia pass won't necessarily result in the number of generations that would be necessary to cause a visible differentiation of the elves, as unless killed, there should be some of the first elves to awake around, and the second generation and the third as well. So unless elves adapt fantastically quickly, and create successive generations very quickly as well, there seems to be little chance that the elves, at least, would diversify very much. A stronger case can be made for the dwarves, most of whom settled further east. So Disa could be justified as being from another house of dwarves, a kind of dynastic union with the Longbeards (Durin's folk). There is a way to do it that is respectful of the lore, but as you point out so well, the writers were too busy being, to be polite,"cosmopolitan".

@patricklee5239

Жыл бұрын

The elves had very low reproductive rates, and grew up slowly, so their population wouldn't grow fast enough to adapt to their environment.

@MDP1702

Жыл бұрын

With the elves a simple explanation a skincolor change could be that they lived in a different region a long time. For example getting a darker skin from having lived centuries in the south.

@imperialdebauchery5988

Жыл бұрын

@MDP1702 except that elves don't adapt to the changing world. It's why they're so desperate to preserve it and make it as unchanging as they are. It's why they ultimately leave Middle Earth and return to the Undying Lands.

@MDP1702

Жыл бұрын

@@imperialdebauchery5988 If you follow that lore, sure. Then again it isn't like they haven't changed other lore in this series.

@riken1829

Жыл бұрын

@@MDP1702 more like a couple dozen to hundred millenia. From what I remember reading the Silmarillion a century would be maybe half a generation.

I agree with most of what you said except for the “black elf” part. The elves spread out is basically like medieval Scotland, Ireland, England, France, etc. They may have different cultures and all have a unique variations in their genetic makeup but they are all the same skin color. The elves are also pretty much immune to the skin damage required to develop extra melanin. It just doesn’t make sense to make them darker skinned. Also, they are immortal so you really wouldn’t see that much change in skin color from people thousands of years old. I agree with the rest. It would have be much more cohesive to have the isolated communities of Numenor, The Southlands, and the Harfoots be homogenous with different real world ethnicities. That makes a lot of sense.

@jmgonzales7701

Жыл бұрын

numenor are just humans rights? like they arent a different race?

@penmaster003

Жыл бұрын

@@jmgonzales7701 Most of them are human but the royal line also had some elvish blood. They were really tall, extremely skilled, and had exceptionally long lives compared to other humans. Aragorn is a descendant of their kings and he was 87 years old in Lord of the Rings.

@MaMastoast

Жыл бұрын

If they wanted to add diversity with the elves I'd been fine with all elves being Asian.. a lot of Asian people are as fair skinned as Europeans and honestly hvad facial features commonly associated with elves

@MaMastoast

Жыл бұрын

Have*

@jmgonzales7701

Жыл бұрын

@@MaMastoast what??? which asians have elvish european features? im asian and i haven't seen anyone with asian elvish features. if they wanted to add diversity the blacks can be the orcs or the easterlings.

Corlys Valeryon was also a well written character. That's another reason people stopped caring about the race swap. Nobody in The Rings of Power was well written

@Nikimouse311

Жыл бұрын

Yes that’s what I am saying. Like, I don’t really see the diversity as a problem in the series of Rings of Power bc even if it was 100 % white people, or the diversity was broken up into regions, there are just some writing issues, in the way that House of the Dragon didn’t have. Am still going to watch the 2nd season and hope the can fix some of that. End of the day, I have read all the books, I am here for the lore.

@toughonshills6598

Жыл бұрын

100 yes. No one(majority) gives a shit about Black elves. People hate badly written and badly acted shows. That's it. All these hot take KZread fuckers stirring the pot for the small number of twats can fuck right off.

@MaMastoast

Жыл бұрын

I mean they also tie it into the plot that his side of the family looks significantly different than the Targaryens.. which also helps.. It is still a weird that the two families can look that different considering the amount of of crossbreeding they've done

@dennisyoungblood7752

Жыл бұрын

@@MaMastoast yeah, but also seeing as they are a sea faring family, it also makes sense that would interbreed with other races

I agree with you very much, definitely checking out the full video. I wish they'd actually do some diversity and add it in a way that fits the world. like you said, have complete groups of people who were affected by their environment, distance, separation and how they mingle with others, and it would make sense whatever their color is. bring in More diversity instead of sticking them here and there like a sore thumb screaming "Look at me, I'm different!!!" A friend told me "yeah but it's fantasy, you can do whatever you want" which I replied "not to the point where it makes no sense, and is unreal to the world it's occurring on" Having everywhere look like Modern cities, with Modern population diversity, and Modern hair styles etc... it completely removed the Fantasy part of the show for me. to the point where this show feels like a Modern LARP of an awesome story... instead of showing the actual awesome story.

@LostChord

Жыл бұрын

The “it’s fantasy so you can do whatever you want” argument is one you can only make if your brain is on power-saving mode. Middle Earth is a whole lattice of rules and authorial laws designed to be consistent with each other, and for each entailment to be consistent with its cause. All good worldbuilding proceeds in this way. If that weren’t so, there’d be no need to separate out genres like surrealist and nonsense fiction.

I've argued that they could have easily explained Disa with a throw-away line from one character to Durin about his "Eastern wife" or how during his travels he'd found her and brought back. Purists might scream, but it's at least an attempt at an explanation.

@legendarydavo

Жыл бұрын

What's annoying is... this means that every dwarf from the line of Durin, including Thror, Thorin should all be half black.... So I dunno how it's feasible at all. You could have had her as a visiting princess from their cousins in the south or east but not married to the prince of the line of Durin.

@robertbryant4669

Жыл бұрын

@@legendarydavo Not necessarily. Durin and Disa's child would have been half-black, but if their descendants continued marrying within Durin's own clan the ancestry would have been all but bred out of them. Similar to how Aragorn can't be described as a half-elf because his elven ancestry is so far back as to be inconsequential.

@liamsludge2659

Жыл бұрын

As much at that would make sense to the sane, that is the exact opposite of what their weird vision of forced diversity is meant to portray. Any mention or hint of "otherness" or "difference" is seen as anti-diverse. They only want diversity in skin colour because it's easy to spot, diversity of culture or race or ethnic origin is totally secondary.

@legendarydavo

Жыл бұрын

@@robertbryant4669 how many generations between Thror and Durins son? Dwarves live for hundreds of years. I wouldn't think it would be that long.

@robertbryant4669

Жыл бұрын

@@legendarydavo I don't know which Durin this is, or which year of the Second Age, because I don't watch the show. However, in the Third Age, there are eight generations between Durin VI, the last king of Khazad-dum, and Thror, each with a lifespan of approximately two hundred years. There is a tree provided at the end of Appendix A, but it skips from the first Durin to the sixth. Since RoP is evidently set towards the end of the Second Age, and Durin VI was born 1731 years after that, I imagine there was plenty of time to breed out Disa's influence on the genetic line, unless there were fresh infusions from time to time.

Bang-on. Diversity is not and never was the issue, it is a question of how the writers go about it. Your example with Corlys Velaryon in HOTD is a great argument that completely validates that exact point. Great review.

I would have loved to see a band of haradrim or easterling defects that join against the fight against sauron

This was a perfect piece of your critique to single out, or should I say one of the many points you could of used from the original release on the TLP main channel, I like this format as i gives an opportunity for fans of Tolkien and of you to respond, nice one Chordie Poo's (too familiar ?) sod it i'm in a great mood !...cheers.

@frankowalker4662

Жыл бұрын

Hi Andy, I agree.

@jgamer2228

Жыл бұрын

Could have*

Very true. I am older, and was born in Finland. I saw people other than Finns irl first time in my life when I was a teenager, a bunch of probably Japanese tourists. First time when I saw Africans was when my family went to Morocco on a tourist trip, and then, first time I saw people living in my country who were not native Finns was in the 1990s when more immigrants started to arrive, Vietnamese and Somali, before than some people from Chile. We do have one other indigenous group (I know today "indigenous" is mostly allowed only to people who were slower to adapt to the western civilization, and more "unspoiled" by it, but damn it, Finns genetically similar to modern ethnic Finns have lived here for at least a few thousand years and today it is thought that we didn't exactly move here as a group, pushing the Sami away, but instead today's Finns are the end result of several small groups coming and mixing, possibly the Sami have a bigger percentage of the original gene pool in them than we do but it's not that big a difference), the Sami, but while their culture and language are different they look nearly identical to Finns. Genetically they have a bit more of the Asian gene heritage than Finns do, but it doesn't show much. Now, there was some level of diversity even in the middle ages here. The city I lived in had people from Sweden - well, ethnic Swedes, back then Finland was a part of Sweden - and the Hansa traders living there back then, as well as occasionally other traders or such from further away. Several languages, somewhat different cultures. But they were mostly all Europeans, and white. You might presumably occasionally get one or two individuals from really far away, and obviously different looking, although there wasn't anybody who'd end up in the history books the way Thomas Alexandre-Dumas in France or Abraham Hannibal in Russia did, but they would have been pretty damn rare. So, in Middle Earth, you might, maybe, get a princess Disa, but not the more mixed Harfoots, if they had tried to make the place look more believable. And even way less than a hundred years ago Europeans were still pretty sensitive about the visual differences between us, even if any outsider might just see us all as a group of whites - northern Europeans saw Italians and the Spanish as the pretty exotic dark people, just because even if you get natural blonds among them too they do have more people with dark hair and eyes, and the latter are a rarity in the north. As I assume any other larger group of people anywhere have been, and are. Being able to tell who are "your" people and who are not seems to be something very natural for us. Understandable, of course, because there once was a time when making that mistake might get you killed.

This was one of my favorite points you made from your larger video. I think it's perfectly reasonable and logical. Writers can absolutely have diversity in their scripts, just as long as /where/ the diversity comes in makes sense within the world they're populating.

@jaccat4336

Жыл бұрын

GOT did this very well. People from the north, south, across the seas all looked different. And each had an interesting and unique culture. ROP made each place look like modern America. They could’ve had entire countries of POC characters that would’ve been lore accurate (south lands). But instead they just sprinkle them in here and there and patted themself on the back. 🤦🏼‍♀️

I do agree with you that diversity and story have needlessly been pitted against each other, However in this context I think that you have to take into account the fact that this was made to be a mythology for Europe and England

This is basically an explanation as to why the Elder Scrolls series works so well: You have the nine provinces of Tamriel: Cyrodiil, Valenwood, Summerset Isles, Hammerfell, High Rock, Skyrim, Morrowind, Black Marsh and Elsweyr. Each with their own unique cultural flair, be it the customs, the architecture, the people, etc. While I'm not into MMOs, Elder Scrolls Online emphasizes this how each province is heavily populated by majority people of that specific region, while a few outsider races are found particularly in major hubs, since that is where most trade happens. Whereas on the outskirts of these regions you find more diverse groups of people as the people from the neighboring regions are found living close to the borders. Cyrodiil is a great example with its southern side being sandwiched between Elsweyr and Black Marsh, hence there are greater population of Khajiit and Argonians (complete with the shared hostility to one another), Valenwood border territory has more bosmer, the west to Hammerfell has more Redguards, north-east with High Rock has Bretons, north with Skyrim has Nords, north-east with Morrowind has dunmer. While in the Imperial City at the dead center of Cyrodiil, where empire's seat resides, is the most cosmopolitan and host people from all over since, again, trade and commerce between nations are done in the capital. Even the races came about with how those like the Mer came from Summerset Isles and as they expanded and went forth they broke up into the different "tribes" of mer and became different, aldmer, bosmer, chimer, dwemer, orsimer, dunmer, falmer, etc. The Atmorans came from, well, Atmora and started out as the Nords until they eventually spread out and became distinct as the original people of Cyrodiil and they even cross-bred with mer to become the Bretons.

Even though I have seen your reviews on your main channel, it's always a treat with you how break down the facts. Solid evidence and reasonable conclusions, all very well stated. I have to go and see your review of Wakanda End Soon!

Great video. One thing these people don't seem to understand, is that when different regions have different ethnicities, it helps that region to feel and seem different. When everything and everyone everywhere is just a mix, then nothing feels distinct or special. Like you said, Game of Thrones got it right, Wheel of Time and Rings of Power felt like they made their casting choices by hitting the random character generator in a video game.

@nischini

Жыл бұрын

Brazilian people: Am I a joke to you?

Another cool thing about the diversity in Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings and Hobbit films are the regional variations of Orcs. The Moria Orcs are different from the Isengard Orcs, who in turn are different from the Mordor Orcs, who are different to the Gundabad Orcs, etc. Same with the Uruk-hai. Saruman's Uruk-hai look different to Sauron's Uruk-Hai. Even the trolls and Wargs have regional variations. (Though, personally I prefer the more hyena-like Wargs from "The Lord of the Rings" as opposed to the wolf-like Wargs in "The Hobbit".) This diversity made the Orc race more believable as their physical appearance relate to the environments in which they inhabit.

Very brilliantly made video. I enjoyed your analysis and hope you will make some more videos on this topic.

@LostChord

Жыл бұрын

There’s two 2-hour breakdowns on the main channel, and plenty more to come!

@jimmydasani8922

Жыл бұрын

@@LostChord literally just finished the one this video is clipped in actually. Lol great work. Thanks again

The little Platoon and the lostchord are quickly becoming my favorit channels on YT. Love it. It seems like reason and logic is beginning to come back. God I wish this will spread to Hollywood.

05:10 This is exactly why i didn't even make it through the wheel of time trailer before closing the tab and resolving not to watch the show. Robert Jordan goes to great lengths in his description of the two rivers as the back end's back end where people very much look like they have been marrying each other for a bit too long, so that even rand's lighter eyes and hair stick out quite a bit. He comes back to these differences on numerous occasions to ram the point home. On the other hand the trailer shows a "not the winespring inn" with patronage that looks like you took a random sample of international people from a modern major city's subway stop. My immediate thought was "Oh no, if they couldn't even get something so simple and obvious right, they have no chance in hell to understand the many nuances of that world, let alone portray them in a tv series."

I'm unconvinced there would be strong ethnic variation within a species as long lived as the elves are. Short of interbreeding with the races of man, such as in the kings of Numenor, surely the species reproduces far too slowly for to take place, potentially even over tens of thousands of years. You would surely have older generations of elves, eternally young and capable of having children, breeding with elves who were born in Middle-Earth 10 generation later than them. Surely this would completely stifle any divergence. Thinking about it, I'm shocked that there's even strong cultural shifts between groups of elves. Unless the split between two groups originally occurred due to some strong philosophical divide, surely the elderly members of any group of elves would reinforce their original culture, unlike the real world where minor variation every generation can lead to drastic changes over time. Perhaps you could argue a cultural interbreeding, where interactions with the cultures of the short lives species in their area would alter each elven group. Additionally, both these issues could be solved with the older generations of elves dying/returning to Valinor at a rate high enough to counteract their conservatism.

When I saw where the show would take place, I was like “Wait a minute you’ve gone to places that *do* have darker skinned people, possibly Asian too with the Easterlings and Khandish folk, and yet you decide to *not* portray those cultures and races?” It really does show to me that the people who made this show are *not* fans in the slightest, because if they were, hell if they’d even paid attention to the films, they would’ve known this. Also your point on screenwriters being urbanites is absolutely *spot on.* I live in a more rural part of England, which as pointed out are very ethnically homogeneous. Recently I went to London and, without trying to sound racist, it was, while I wouldn’t say jarring because I had been before, but I had simply forgotten just how ethnically diverse cities were. These people genuinely don’t understand the world outside of their urban bubble, because they simply don’t have that much worldly experience. However, all of this could’ve been fixed if they’d simply been good, well written characters. But the thing is, they’re not. Corlys is a great example, I didn’t look at him and see a race swap, I saw the character of Corlys.

I must agree with your assessment of the writers/show runners of this show with one exception: they don't just live in a big city, they live in a bubble.

This is brilliant. I love your approach here, and would have been excited to see the sort of diversity you described.

What if you just made a faction that consists of outcasts, bannished individuals, people who have been thrown out of their home lands and gathered together to create a new start. You could make this faction quite literally as diverse as you could ever possibly want.

@imperialdebauchery5988

Жыл бұрын

Why not just add green and purple visitors from Mars while you're at it?

@BurgMusic

Жыл бұрын

@@imperialdebauchery5988 that would be sci-fi

@Milkymalk

Жыл бұрын

@@BurgMusic And what you wrote would be fantasy, but not the literary kind. Why would people who are banished from their lands, all around the world, in a fantasy setting, all come and settle in one single place that might be half around the world for most of them? Even a newly-formed outcast society will originate mostly from nearby. They have no reason to travel hundreds and thousands of miles to meet other outcasts, they will instead stop at the first location that can sustain them and doesn't drive them away.

@BurgMusic

Жыл бұрын

@@Milkymalk mmmm...no. if I were hypothetically banished from my country and I had the choice to settle for the closest thing I can find, or embark on a journey to live happily among an entire community of people in my exact situation, the choice is quite easy for me.

@BurgMusic

Жыл бұрын

@@Milkymalk also middle earth is about the same size as the United States, so unless you're traveling coast to coast, you won't be walking for thousands of miles.

Seriously love the voice! So soothing and informative ❤

Damn, well argued! Good job, a very pleasant and informative listen! Keep up!

I always thought it would be cool if they fid something like 13th warrior where you have someone travel from a distant land and they could be chronicling the events he witnesses.

Writers of ROP: "Please watch season 2, we promise not to disappoint you at every turn this time" Mouth of Sauron: "Aha! old fem-beard... I have a token i was bidden to show thee" Mouth of Sauron: **Puts on Peter Jackson's trilogy** Mouth of Sauron: "The IP was dear to thee, i see..." Mouth of Sauron: "Know that it suffered greatly at the hands of its host" (Amazon) Mouth of Sauron: "Who would have thought an audience so small, could endure so much pain..." Mouth of Sauron: "But they did, ROP show runners... they did..." Mouth of Sauron: "And who is this... Patrick McKay and J.D. Payne...?" Mouth of Sauron: "It takes more to make a good show than a broken writing team." Writers of ROP: **Cuts their already dwindling audience in half** Me: "I Guess that concludes negotiations..." Writers of ROP: "I Do not believe it, i will not!"

This is exactly what I've been saying man. I literally thought that they should have cast Italian actors for the Númenorians. Since the island is described with that kind of weather

@samdaniels2

Жыл бұрын

Yeah whenever I read about Aragorn and the Numeanoreans I always got the impression that they were Mediterranean.

A very methodical and well reasoned response to such a hotly contested issue these days, this would have made sense. The Velaryon example was a great one at how better integrated it seemed even if the initial justification by the showrunner was all too familiar, but they made it work maturely without really harping on about it. They even had entire regions of Middle Earth which they could have filled out like Harad and Rhûn, which even Tolkien as meticulous as he was at world building only really sketched. Would loved to have seen that myself personally, cause we only get a tantalising glimpse of them through Sam when he spots one of their dead soldiers.

This was a great analysis and deserved to be clipped!

I don't think it's quite true to say the elves were all one people to start with. In fact, the Silmarillion mentions three groups * The Minyar, founded by Imin, the first Elf to awake in Cuiviénen, and his wife Iminyë - who later become the Vanyar. All migrate to Valinor, so we shouldn't see any of them in stories of the Second Age. They are described as fair and golden-haired. * The Tatyar, founded by Tata, the second Elf to awake at Cuiviénen, and his Tatië - who later become the Noldor. About half of them migrate to Valinor, with a large number later returning to Middle-Earth under Fëanor in the First Age. They were described as largely having grey eyes and dark hair, except for the "mixed race" of the golden-haired House of Finarfin, descended from the Noldor Finarfin, the third son of King Finwë and his second wife Indis of the Vanyar. The most famous of these is of course Galadriel. * The Nelyar, founded by Enel, the third Elf-father to awake at Cuiviénen, and his wife Enelyë - who later become the Teleri, Sindar, and many others. Again about half of them migrate to Valinor from Cuiviénen, but many of them linger forming various kingdoms in Middle-earth, and only about half of those who set out for Valinor actually get there. They are the most numerous of those three primal races, so most elves of the Second Age belong to this group. They are mostly dark or silver-haired, with the odd few golden-haired royalty like Thranduil (hinting at other "mixed marriages" with Vanyar royalty) Then there are the Avari, formed from the elves who refused to go to Valinor and form numerous tribes, some mixing with the Teleri (eg the Galadhrim of Lothlorien) Finally, Tolkien also mentions in 'The Annals of Aman' (in the HoME volume 'Morgoth's Ring'), two other races of elves who awoke at Cuiviénen, the kindreds of Morwë and Nurwë, all of whom refused to go to Valinor, and are mentioned nowhere else in the legendarium. All would have become Avari. Therefore even among the elves there's a degree of diversity present, and if you accept the kindreds of Morwë and Nurwë you can make up any description you like about them as Tolkien leaves them a blank canvas. With the Wizards (Istari), the Silmarillion has them all arriving in the Third Age, but that's something Tolkien changed later, with the two Blue Wizards arriving in the Second Age, then traveling to the east. As the Wizards were meant to live amongst the Easterlings, you could (and probably should) have them be Middle-Eastern or South/East Asian in appearance. So even more diversity Finally, with regard to the dwarves, Tolkien similarly leaves plenty of scope for diversity. There are seven houses of the dwarves; the Longbeards (Durin's Folk), Firebeards and Broadbeams both originally from the Blue Mountains. The dwarves from 'The Hobbit. and 'The Lord of the Rings' are mostly Longbeards, with a few such as Bifir, Bofur and Bombur being descended from dwarves of the Blue Mountains. The other four houses, who lived in the east of Middle-Earth, the Ironfists, Stiffbeards, Blacklocks, and Stonefoots are completely blank canvases, with no descriptions in the legendarium. As you say Disa was one of the few halfway decent characters. The fact she was black could easily be explained by having her coming from a race of black dwarves (say the Blacklocks), with her in a dynastic marriage with Prince Durin IV. If you're worried about the show runners rights to any of that, you don't even have to use those names, just have the different races be a thing. And as far as diverse races of elves go, that in itself is fully supported by the legendarium, where the elves of Middle-earth and Beleriand form all sorts of different named races; the Nandor, Laiquendi, Falathrim, Mithrim etc. Sorry for the long reply, but as you say the Rings of Power showrunners could have had all the diversity they wanted, and all fully consistent with Tolkien's legendarium. But they adopted a stupidly lazy tokenistic solution that really made no sense whatsoever.

@legendarydavo

Жыл бұрын

The only problem I have with that is "black dwarves" doesn't really make sense for a cave dwelling race who don't need melanin. I'd probably go for it if her people were surface dwelling people living on the Plains of some hot south eastern area. But people evolve differently and look differently depending on their geographical location. Which is why the diversity stuff is so jarring for me a supposed person who listened to history and evolution.

@husky0098

Жыл бұрын

It is very clear that the elves are in fact one ‘race’ (in both the fantasy and the controversial anthropology sense). The division into Minyar, Tatyar and Nelyar is not natural but artificial, as told in the Cuivienyarna in NoME. The first three elves pick their groups of followers and thus form the different ‘Hair color gangs’, but they still remain one ‘race’. Morwe and Nurwe weren’t of different ‘races’ or even peoples, Morwe being a Tatya and Nurwe being a Nelya. I also wouldn’t say that you could just make up any description for their peoples even if we would go by the rejected idea of them being separate clans, since unlike the dwarves, we have pretty solid descriptions of elves in general. So no elf diversity in the lore. I’m not saying that they couldn’t have diverse elves and make it work within their show, just that it isn’t supported by book canon. I completely agree with your other points about the dwarves and the Blue Wizards, but the elf clans being different races is a misinterpretation. TL:DR The different clans of elves are not races, but rather cultural/national groups within one race.

@jakobplobeck8006

Жыл бұрын

@@mcnair435 lazy bourgeoisie bastard. Feanor might have done some light kin slaying. But the teleri are atleast guilty of criminal kin negligence. Dark lord is unleached upon middle earth were you kin lives. Does not help the only ones willing to go there and fight for them. But when you ruler is named after a puppet, really they were doomed from the start

@jakobplobeck8006

Жыл бұрын

@@husky0098 who are you, who is so wise in the lore of Tolkien. No but thanks, I was stroking out reeding the other guys take on the elven kindreds

@Lothiril

Жыл бұрын

Nandor, Laiquendi, Falathrim etc. aren't different races, they are different cultures among the Elves, indicating groups that separated from each other and lived in different areas. Elves age slowly, have few kids, don't get sick, and don't die a natural death. There's not really a reason why the Elves in Mirkwood would look all that different than the Elves of the Falas for example. A case could be made for Avari who left Cuiviénen and wondered South, but for the majority of the Elves in Valinor and the North of Middle-earth the differences are rather cultural, and in the optical differences that they awoke with. Not that the show has to stick with Tolkien's concept here of course, but they should have ~some~ concept.

I looked for a size comparison of Middle Earth to the real world, and one comparison would place the Shire in Eastern England, whereas Gondor would be Western Italy, with Mordor in Croatia and Bosnia Herzegovina. I think they should have had Numenor in RoP clearly as one ethnic group, whatever one they wanted, but then they could have had embassies and groups from some of the peoples of Middle Earth, which could have added diversity and a different dynamic to the island. Disa could have been a princess from a group of Southern dwarves who went North to reconnect with their northern cousins. There are many explanations the RoP cast could have chosen, but how they did it wasn't the best.

I'm glad that you have separated this diversity part into its own video! I have previously used your full video with the timestamp of where the diversity part begins as a response to several comments. Naturellement, the irony (as far as I understand victimhood) is that you have now "othered" the diversity part of your full video by creating it as a standalone video. This either makes the diversity part a victim, or it makes the rest of the full video the victim. It's very complicated, but I'm pretty sure it might result in somebody being offended by the separation (to mention the subject matter 🤯) bwaahaha And yes, I realize that you have not extracted the diversity part from your full video because that would've been "erasing" it, as well as "silencing" it. That might make you an "eracist"? ("Erasist" looks odd somehow like "resist" spelled incorrectly.) Probably a few of your brain cells have died reading this comment so I will stop now, but I do want to thank you for the video!

This is great! You’re great! Love your wise & balanced takes. :)

Isn’t it all about the ticking off checkboxes and damn everything else?

Yep, their main thesis is that the series has to reflect the -world we- New York they live in today.

I've been trying to argue this point since Wheel of Time. Well said. I would love if some of these shows treated diversity right instead of just seeming to try and check a box on the screenplay checklist. What kills me about the WoT "adaptation" is that diversity is written into the story in a very important way in the books and the showrunner just ruins it.

Superbly argued, detailed critique, LostChord. Excellent stuff.

Brilliant video. Hit the nail on the head!

I wasn't expecting you to do this but I'm so glad you brought up Arcane. In my opinion, Arcane is the anti-Rings of Power in basically every way (so much happens in every episode, not a minute of screentime is wasted, all of the characters and their relationships are believable and engaging, the music is a flawless fit for the scenes it enhances, no detail is left unconsidered, etc) and diversity is definitely one of those things. Piltover definitely seems like a melting pot sort of city, so the diversity actually adds to the story rather than detracts from it. Contrast that with character groups like the Harfoots in RoP or the However-Many Rivers in WoT, where there's a perfectly even distribution of all races in a tiny, isolated community--and these races are SHOWN to intermingle in families yet the racial characteristics are perfectly preserved rather than being homogenized over time--and you just get a confusing, immersion-breaking mess. I'll never forget when I watched the first episode of WoT (the only one I've seen) and they had this trader ride into town with his cart. I /think/ they were implying that he was from some distant land, but because there were plenty of other black people in the However-Many Rivers already, there was just...something missing from that character. His race could have been an instant indication to the audience that this guy is not from here, and that would have added richness to the story. Instead, the character just felt off. Anyway, enough rambling. Really good video.

Yes! Finally someone said it! I have been thinking about exactly this point for months now. Really diversity is not a bad thing, but when it's executed badly there automatically is a sort of apprehension from a lot of people. Like many people just don't like having it mushed into their faces constantly and that leads to people actually going into the other direction and feeling apprehensive to diversity in total. And you are so right. When they say the characters should reflect the world, ironically these people don't even know what the world looks like. A peoples skin color is always a reflection of their history. Like if you go to rural africa as a white person, people will look at you and your skin in amazement. Other places like the US are more diverse, just because of their history. And really the characters in the Rings of Power don't look like they're from Middle Earth. They look like their from America (a part of this is also their rediculously american hairstyles. I mean come on, why does Elrond look like fucking Ken from Barbie?). And they really missed a huge chance of expanding on the world of Tolkien. They could have for example included a story centering around harad, where there was a serious fight against sauron in those times. I would have loved to see that. However I want to add, that it could be possible for numenorians to be more diverse even though they are an island people, because they are famously a very seafaring nation going to all kinds of coasts and they could have picked up people from all kinds of places. But that could also have been a thing to set numenorians apart from other people, instead of everybody looking the same. But yeah in general it's just the half-assed lazy city bubble world view approach of these people that make this representation of diversity really bad. And I also think, that people would have overlooked these things, if the writing in general had been good. P.S.: I have another interesting example of diversity done well in regards to elves though. If you know the show The Dragon Prince there are different races of elves which have parallels to the human "races"

The problem was that the showrunners weren't trying to create diversity that naturally fit into the show. They were (insanely) trying to piss off the fanbase to in order to generate "buzz" for the show.

This is by far the best statement of the problem with a logically presented argument and solution that I've ever seen.

Huge ASOIAF fan here. Everyone stopped talking about the Corlys swap because it didn’t change the book plot at all; plus the story isn’t constantly making mention of his race. I’m still puzzled by the choice, as I know the Velaryons wedded into the Targaryens twice before the events of HOTD, and the result was Valyrian offspring (white skin/silver hair). This would suggest that in the past couple generations, House Velaryon intermarried with Summer Islander royalty to produce Corlys and his progeny. That is not what HOTD showed however; the isle of Driftmark, House Velaryon’s seat, was nearly 100% an ethnically homogenous black (Summer Islander) people. A bizarre choice to me, cause it instantly raises the question: who are the royalty marrying into to look like their populous? Cleopatra didn’t look like the average Egyptian. A more sound decision (though it would stray the story farther from the source) would have been to make several of the Narrow Sea houses, all which swore fealty to Dragonstone, Summer Islander peoples. That would have answered the earlier question I posed. Anyhow…… loved the video!

In fact, House of the Dragon used "diversity" to improve the source material. In the original Leanor is white and the question of Jace and Luke's father is only widely held rumor. But by casting the residents of Driftmark, and as such Laenor, as black this question becomes an open secret. And in my opinion, much more interesting.

I'm glad you brought up Arcane. Mel and Ekko are two of my three favourite characters in that world. From the few scenes I have actually watched, Disa looks like she'd be one of my favourites in Rings of Power, too.

Agreed it did pull me away from the story because when I saw the trailers I thought bronywn and Theo were not related. Turns out their mother and son although it certainly does not look like it at all. Same with the Harfoots. Nori has younger sister but it is impossible to believe that she came from her mother because her mother is darker skin while the little girl is practically pale. It breaks realism and looks bad on screen to have family ties with actors who you definitely know are unrelated.

Great video, I feel like it put lots of issues I've been having with the Rings of Powers' casting choices into words. I don't mind diversity at all, but I feel like it needs to fit the story that you want to tell. For example the Harfoots: It struck me as decidedly odd, that they were depicted in such a diverse way. In the first episode the show went to great lengths to establish that they have this whole "We don't like outsiders, we don't stray from the path, we don't care about the rest of the world"-mentality going on and that this has always been their way. Which is fine - but how are they still looking so different from one another? No matter how diverse you start out, surely after generations of isolation everyone will look pretty much the same? Or does this imply, that the Harfoots only have children with similar looking Harfoots, so their differences get preserved? It just felt very strange to me.

I couldn't agree more with your video. I think that the low effort "pick and mix" approach to diversity definitely works well enough for some projects, specifically ones that don't have too in depth world building- like Vox Machina. However that approach is very distracting when used for projects that have such complex world building as anything related to Lord of the Rings. If a fantasy world has in depth histories and even languages, you can't just throw anyone anywhere and expect it to make sense to people. It requires much more effort and planning.

Completely agree. This is how I prefer it. Not "everywhere is Germany" and not "everywhere is Chicago or New York" approach. Somewhere in the middle. This area is that, that area is this.

Another example of diversity I enjoyed was actually in The Elder Scrolls. I’ve only played Morrowind and Skyrim, but to me, the diversity of races in the world makes SENSE. The various provinces feature travelers from other lands as you would expect, but the vast majority of the local population is culturally and ethnically homogenous (with some variety from region). I also love how it doesn’t shy away from the very real problem of bigotry and racism (from ALL races) and there are repercussions the inhabitants of the world face as a result. This was made 11 years ago so the political climate artists tend to be so sensitive to was very different, but I think that it handles the topic with much more grace and maturity. Thank you for this essay-I plan on sharing it with people who might otherwise not understand my stance on diversity in media.

Some guy hashed out a quick explanation of how to get beardless black dwarves in Middle-Earth, and it was really good. But that implies care, and thought beyond the surface value.

they missed such a huge story possibility with the dwarves and their compression of the show's timeline. just imagine, you have the prince of The dwarf hold, Durin himself, visiting other hold's in his youth. He meets a princess in his travels to the south, who he finds a deep and abiding friendship with. latter in his life, when it is time to marry, he goes to visit the princess he had kept in contact with, his friendship growing into romance as they traded letters, but finds that she had a regrettable disfigurement, she was unable to grow a proper beard! of course, love is above such things so he ends up courting her anyway in a romance for the ages, despite grumbling from traditionalists who don't want such a hideous bloodline bred into the royal lineage. of course this also gives you the humorous scene where the royal couple meets the non-dwarven peoples who have heard the whispers of the princess's hideous disfigurement, then when she takes off her veil (which she has been wearing whenever her older self is on screen) and they (and the audience!) are all like, "Whoah, she's actually a total babe!"

I think this is one of the best Videos on this Topic :)

Just saw this, was much more balanced then I thought it may be, given how diversity tends to swing hard to either direction at times in online talks. There is a big way you can input "modern" diversity into a story like this, and that's by trading towns/port towns. Have a city used that is where people from several regions come to trade goods and then return home. You get Haradim and Rohan predecessors handing off goods to each other that isn't local to their home regions. as a crude example. So back at the horse-fields, people all look similar for the most part, but in this town it's all mingled. Or hell, go the Shadow of War route! Where the Black Gondorian soldier/officer? He was actually a Haradim (or Easterling, I forget which exactly) who went to Minis Ithil as part of a peace treaty of his clan and Gondor. His clan later got wiped out, and thus he was adopted into the city and grew up there, as one of their own despite being dark skinned compared to all the pale figures around him.

Great video, I'm glad you mentioned the easterlings being darker skinned. I was sure I had read that but I couldn't find anyone else raising that point so I had assumed I was mistaken.

No matter where you live, there are parts of the world that look different. You can either write what you know, or learn about what you don't. Don't get mad when people call you out for writing what you don't know as something that you do.

The fact there are videos like this shows you the extent of the absolute fail this show was. Great vid btw

spot on my good man. if your ideas were mixed with the ideas from youtuber like stories of old… it could’ve been alright!

I never forgot the question of Lord Valeryon and his family's origins, I just suspended it. I still expect an explanation at some point.

A human is a human. The amount of melanin in your skin means diddly squat. We all know it by now.

An extremely well thought video

Excellent video and deftly explained.

Hey since your gonna do short form content on this channel could you review something like the overwatch cinematics? They are really well written I think and I would love to hear you talk about them. It’s from a game if you didn’t know and I recommend starting with “honor and glory” or “the last bastion”. Thanks for the amazing content anyways!

This is a great video and I'm glad I watched it. I did take issue with the show and it's use of diversity, I just couldn't put it into words as well as you did. As a Tolkien fan since as soon as I could read, it bothered me something fierce. I made to argue that I don't want a singularity of race, as I am aware of the Easterlings and Near and Far Harad, but like with most modern discourse, the side that claims moral superiority tend to be unwilling to argue in the first place. I'm glad I saw this video, mostly because it brings me some piece of mind to see what I tried saying put so eloquently and be received so well. Now, I just wish I could discuss this with the other side of the argument without being screamed at or ignored passive-aggressively.

Thank you!

The writers all being international urbanites explains another problem people have with the show: the sense of scale/distance. For example the host of numeneor travel from the west to the southlands in "what seems like a weekend" It wouldn't be so much of a problem, except for the fact that *Literally the entire LOTR trilogy is based around a similar journey and what a herculean task it was for our heros*. Tolkein enjoyed a good walk, and lived in a time long before commericial flight was a available to the masses. He had a good understanding of geography, and so can make a story about simply going from A to B interesting. The LOTR writers conception of geography on the other hand is that you go to the airport, then you arrive at the airport in your destination. Hence why horses & sailing ships behave as areoplanes in their story.

They took their "pitchforks to London" because that is where the king and government resided. Not because it was "diverse."

Numenor is a Gift for Guam’s fighting against morgoth So there was a mass migration Whats means that the people can be mixed

Why I appreciate GRRM. He introduced other places with other races and backstory with lore

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There is a lot of backstory for the people of middle earth as well, and there is a distinct lack of elves in aSoIF which is a race Tolkien has divided into multiple groups and cultures. The middle men of Eriador differs from the Dunlendings and both groups have a lot of lore. The Eotheod has a long history with a culture that has evolved with time, the northmen in Dale and Esgaroth has roots in the Kingdom of Rhovanion which was driven from their home by the Wainriders who long fought Gondor. A part of the lore about Harad and Rhun is that we do not know much about them because the book is written by in lore characters who do not know much about those places, it creates a mystery that surely would've been expanded on if the Professor lived longer. Then there are the Dwarves and their 7 clans and the 3 groups of Hobbits, so there are a lot of races in Tolkien, but they are not always defined by skin colour.

Can't even tell elves from humans in rings of power if it were not for their ears, let alone trying to figure out from were humans come from. Don't have the same problem with PJ trilogy, can tell Horse lords from Rohan easily from men of Gondor, or who the Elves are because they are so otherworldly.

Very well said. I really enjoy diversity, but I also know, coming from a town where there are a lot of Turkish people or people who’s parents came from turkey, that those who look quite noticeably different from most native families usually also have a family history that explains it. Even for my just slightly unusually dark hair, eyes and short body height, people seek explanations and will find them in either the time of French or Roman occupation. So I find myself, in turn, always wondering about these diverse characters family history but because it seems like the directors always only follow a quota without any story or world building in mind, I can’t even come up with a story myself. Of course you can, in real life, accept someone however they are without asking for their family history - but that’s also because we can imagine a large part without needing to ask. We know the regions and ethnicities of our world, we know wher they or their ancestors might’ve come from. In stories we don’t unless someone shows us. So it appears shallow and random.

Rings of power is a disgrace to the world Tolkien built

Velaryon being black makes not much sense in universe. Valyrians were described has having some specific features. And even if in this iteration we want to imagine them to be initially multiracial, after over 100 (4 generations) years intermixing with Targaryens and Westrons they would have not looked so different than the others (they could have explain that they only married inside the family until recently, but the show explicitly says that they intermarried with Targaryens several times since the conquest). BUT is easy to overlook this issue because the character is 1. very well played 2. very well written (AND the diverse appearance of Velaryons is made a relevant plot point)

ha! i was ridiculously annoyed with RoPs diversity issue, but i wasnt really able to put my finger on why. you captured the answer perfectly. thank you

Corlys Velaryon made me scratch my head a bit at first, but it also got me thinking. House Velaryon have historically been seafarers, and it's likely they've intermarried with powerful families outside Westeros over the years. The books don't tell us who Corlys' mother was either, so it's entirely possibly she could have come from the Summer Isles for example.

So it turns out that My Little Pony does a better job at portraying realistic diversity than Rings of Power.

This was great, not at just articulating rightful criticism but also at suggesting a really insightful alternative solution

As for the Numenor example, even if original population came all over the world, 1000 years (or 30 generations later), they would have all mixed up to some average / uniform appearance. We can see this happening in the real world in communities that started as diverse but then remained fairly isolated (eg Latin America has lots of this, see Northeast of Brazil for example).

IMO, the more diverse portrayal of Corlys Valeryon and his army makes more believable sense as they are ocean-going people - well traveled and with more opportunity to have a multicultural blend of individuals. They are not an isolated, landlocked group that would have a more homogenous makeup.