There’s a slight cockup in this version. It erroneously states Paul’s daughter ended up possessed by the Baron. In fact, that was his sister. That’ll be corrected in the main release.

@brianmurphy6480

Ай бұрын

Agree 100%. The story of Paul Atreides is absolutely NOT a hero's journey; his story, continued through that of his son, Leto II, is a cautionary tale. Something to be avoided, not emulated. 🤷‍♂️ Both Paul and Leto II were well aware of the message their lives conveyed, but Paul did not have the courage to step fully into the role. Leto II did, knowing full well it encompassed his eventual and unavoidable destruction, in order to teach an enduring lesson to all of Humanity; one that would resonate in their DNA throughout all of Time, and in the process make it impossible to annihilate or control Mankind in its entirety ever again.

@geraintthatcher3076

Ай бұрын

Paul's got more in common with Anakin it seems

@L33Reacts

Ай бұрын

You fell off. Just kidding. 😅😂❤

@philnorfleet1371

Ай бұрын

And another minor one. Luke flies with Red Squadron against the Death Star, not Rogue Squadron. The Rogues don't show up until ESB. Great video!

@stefbeg

Ай бұрын

Brilliant. I listened to the 1969 interview of Herbert by McNelly but your explanation is much clearer. I have three questions, I hope you will give your opinion: - Don't you think that the question of Paul being a hero or not is clouded by the definition of what is a hero ? In many discussions lately after the release of Dune : part 2, I think many people are thinking : if Paul is not Superman, then he is Space Hitler. - Is there really any document where Herbert actually explains that he was disappointed with how people undesrtood Dune, thus he wrote Dune Messiah to correct things ? In all the interview I have found of him on YT, he seemed to say the opposite, that he wrote Dune and Dune Messiah (and Children) as essentially one book, with deliberately distinct tones, this corresponding to his quote "the difference between a hero and an anti-hero is where you end the story". - Do you think that the nature of the jihad as a profund species need, a primal, biological pulsion, being not easy to adapt on screen, leaves the audience with the impression that the jihad is just a "mere" holy war, and so something that can only be decided deliberately, whereas the book underlines its collecive, unconscious nature and the total futility of resisting it ? Once more thanks for the video, eager to view more !

I gotta remember the "please combine your love of sex with your love of travel, and fuck off!" Line!

@AJadedLizard

Ай бұрын

This guy and Disparu have some of the best one-liners. "Are you thirsty? Here's a Red Bull, it'll give you wings so you can piss off."

@Ramsey276one

Ай бұрын

I'll have to mod it a bit... "Since you like getting around, in more ways than one, can you just... FUCK. RIGHT. *OFF?!"* I'm willing to donate for your bicycle wheel replacement! She: I don't have a bicycle! Don't explain the joke, just take the currency and run like the gag you are...

@Ramsey276one

Ай бұрын

​@@AJadedLizardI remember that one! And HOW he almost died to the Robyn Hood CONDOM JAR REVEAL... XD

@arthurbriand2175

Ай бұрын

Veep has the best insults

@Ramsey276one

Ай бұрын

13:49 XD

Having read the 6 books Frank Herbert wrote, Paul Atreides is not portrayed as a traditional hero. Instead, he embodies the role of an antihero. His rise to leadership among the Fremen, fueled by prophecy and legends, leads to a holy war that sweeps across the universe. Despite his efforts to prevent a Fremen jihad in his name, Paul ultimately succumbs to the powerful forces set in motion by his action. Herbert’s cautionary tale serves as a reminder to critically examine the impact of leaders and their followers, even when faced with seemingly noble intentions.

@colbyentzminger217

Ай бұрын

I disagree. Paul is not an anti hero

@colbyentzminger217

Ай бұрын

The anti-hero is often recognized in modern media, but rarely defined. As such, the archetype must be given a proper definition in order to understand how Paul Atreides both emulates and breaks this type. The Anti-hero archetype is characterized primarily by their personal agenda, their relation to society, and of lack of guiding principles. For Paul Atreides, he is similar to the archetype due to acting on opportunity rather than morals, but unlike the archetype in his leadership role in society, and blended beliefs which are both adopted and formed by his own wit. While Frank Herbert’s character draws on many similarities to the Anti-hero, he is more closely identified with the Tyrant Hero archetype and ultimately fails to fulfill the anti-hero archetype. First, it is important to recognize how Paul Atreides is unlike the anti-hero archetype. According to the Dictionary of Literary Themes and Motifs A - J, “the anti-hero is always a displaced person and, in relation to society, infracostal. His self-centeredness makes him not only unheroic but anti-heroic.” Throughout the novel Paul is precisely the opposite of displaced, instead he frequently recognizes his position in relation to others, such as being a Ducal son, Potential Kwisatz Haderach, and Lisan al-Gaib to name a few. Although after the Harkonnen attack, Paul considers himself a freak, he soon comes to terms with the duty of being the inherited duke. Traditionally the anti-hero won’t have a role to play. Additionally, while Paul may indeed be considered self-centered, it is not without great regard for those close to him leaving little room for him to be neatly considered an anti-hero. Second, Paul’s beliefs are a combination of that which is shared with him, and through a series of quotes. The quotes in question are recorded by Princess Irulian as though Dune was written as a history and are found at the beginning of each chapter, sometimes containing relevance for the narrative at hand. Paul’s beliefs are neither exclusively his own as would be the case of a true anti-hero, instead, they are an amalgamation of his Atreides, Bene Gesserit, and Fremen cultural ideals. This can be seen in his recantation of the Bene-Gesserit fear liturgy, following the Fremen's desert life, and respecting his father’s legacy. It would be more appropriate to say that Paul used these beliefs to coerce these factions to his own agenda. So, while he does not neatly fit into the standard depiction of an anti-hero, his more unique ideology can be considered comparable. Lastly, the strongest point of similarity between Paul and the anti-hero archetype is his disregard for principles. Unlike a traditional hero which would adhere to a set of cultural beliefs, Paul constantly operates on the basis of opportunity and the needs of the situation. The greatest example of this can be found in Paul’s seizing the Emperor’s throne. Early on, Paul suggests the potential reality that he marries the princess in order to enter the royal line. By the end, when Paul has the Emperor and Harkonnens at his mercy, he seizes this chance and becomes Emperor. There is no indication that this is an Atreides principle that he is abiding by, but is at best atoning for the wrath of his enemies by taking utter revenge by usurping the throne. For further consideration, Paul quickly adopts the title of Muad’dib to gain status among the Fremen, and by the end completely succumbs to the jihad he by principle had intended to stop. By seizing power and choosing opportunities over principle, Paul’s decision-making can indeed be likened to that of the anti-hero. So, while previously established, Paul Atreides neatly follows the Hero’s Journey archetype, it is also often that he could be misunderstood as an anti-hero. This is largely due to his lack of principles, and opportunistic outlook on life which led to his eventual ascension to Emperor of the galaxy. Paul is not an anti-hero due to his belief system, which is both personal yet influenced heavily by his Bene-Gesserit and Atreides upbringing. Finally, he may be misunderstood as an anti-hero archetype due to his somewhat unique position in relation to society, but he, unlike a true anti-hero, is not anti-social. Rather, Paul utilizes his status and social sway for the furthering of his gains rather than retaining isolation.

@chasx7062

Ай бұрын

@@colbyentzminger217 why do you say "his lack of principles" in the same breath as "his belief system", so which is it? BTW, what gain did he have as Emperor? Paul did NOT want to lose his humanity as the Worm Emperor, as his son eventually did... So was Paul a success or failure

@colbyentzminger217

Ай бұрын

@@chasx7062 I am saying his belief systems to not make him an anti-hero. His beliefs were an amalgamation of the Fremen, Bene-Gesserit, and Atreides beliefs along with his own opportunistic personality. What did he gain as emperor? I'm not sure the point you're trying to make here, classifying him as exclusively a success or failure seems limiting and would strip the nuance of his fate.

@chasx7062

Ай бұрын

@@colbyentzminger217 well what further wealth, prestige, women, slaves did he gain by becoming emperor? Or did he lose 3 x children to the fate that he did not even want? Paul is the tragic hero, eodipus like, something like Tolkien's Hurin and his children.

Paul definitely attempted to be a hero by avoiding Lisan Al-Qabib prophecy for as long as he could the problem is you can say that Paul was the only one who could truly see what horrors him becoming that messiah would entail, he was the one leading the blind but only to where the blind wanted to go

@TrashPanda90914

Ай бұрын

Excellently put.

@arnowisp6244

Ай бұрын

Yeah. He's a tragic hero in that regard. Trying to avoid a horrific fate

@mikeshoults4155

Ай бұрын

"I don't care what you believe, I beleive!" Villeneuve's script captures it well with this line from Stilgar. The people want a messiah to lead them in a "holy" war in something simple and straightforward like" killing the bad people". They don't want a messiah to lead them in a holy war against the evil of the heart by doing something complicated like internal discipline, compassion and mercy. In the end Paul had no choice because the evil in people's hearts will the destiny to be.

@The_preserver_x16

Ай бұрын

4000 years worth of atrocities

@davidwalker891

Ай бұрын

Thinking upon Leto II..."No. There is another."

I see more similarities between Paul and Anakin Skywalker than between Paul and Luke Skywalker. This is in particalar the case, if you consider the fate of his family in Dune Messiah

@piotr78

Ай бұрын

Yeah also consider the sand, its rough and irritating, and it gets everywhere

@LilacSreya

Ай бұрын

@@piotr78Hahahaha… what an original joke. Comedy king! Do you guys have a compulsion to quote the same lines over and over whenever you see a prequel reference? SO not funny after seeing this for the 2 millionth time. 😒

@MidlifeCrisisJoe

Ай бұрын

@@LilacSreyaLet people have fun please.

@piotr78

Ай бұрын

@@LilacSreya It's my first time ever quoting the lines AND I think it was actually pretty well implemented here with dune being all sandy and all that!

The noble families of the imperium in Dune are thousands of years old. I imagine they are all at least distantly related to eachother in some way after all those centuries of intermarriage and mixing bloodlines. For all we know they may all be some degree of cousins to eachother.

@brianmurphy6480

Ай бұрын

Atreides literally means, "of the line of Agamemnon".

@Flitalidapouet

Ай бұрын

Paul and the bad guy (forgot his name) are direct cousins. Bene Gesserit forces intermarriage and ince** in the bloodline in theie Kwisatz Haderach project.

@misanthropicservitorofmars2116

Ай бұрын

Feyd Rautha and Paul are cousins.

@loganm986

Ай бұрын

Idk ask the Bene Gezzerit lol

@BillyWitchDoctorDotCom

Ай бұрын

Pretty common with aristocracy

I am going to say one thing about Paul accepting his destiny not being "heroic": When the character can see the future it is assumed that any action they take that they dislike is a forced play. Any other action will bring a worse future.

He definitely was never meant to be a hero in the books. It's Hollywood who tried to turn him into one, because they need heroes even more than Bonnie Tyler did in 1986.

@dearcastiel4667

Ай бұрын

There's 2 things. First, Herbert himself recognised there was a problem with his depiction of Paul in the first book when he learned most people considered Paul the hero and were siding with him (thus he made it way clearer in the following books that he's not the hero). Secondly, when you are watching 6h of movie, you need to be somewhat on the side of the main character, or on the side of someone close to him, otherwise it will make for a shitty quarter of a day watching only people you don't side with (you need someone to side with to be interested by the stakes of the story, if nobody in the story feels appealing to you then why care about whatever happens to anyone if the story ?).

@user-zq6sz2cr6g

Ай бұрын

@@dearcastiel4667 Completely agreed. I've never needed a character to be the hero in order to side with them, but I understand that many people do. In fact, I think it's more the promotion for this film that tries to sell the hero trope, precisely because it's something so well known that always attracts an audience. The film itself is IMO a very good adaptation, but the promotion seems slightly misleading in that sense.

@devildolphin2102

Ай бұрын

Except he is a Hero in the First book. Heerbert had to Write messiah because he had cocked up.

@TheTrueRandomGamer

Ай бұрын

​@@devildolphin2102Please actually read the book.

@TrashPanda90914

Ай бұрын

​@@devildolphin2102way to miss the entire point 💀

Obi-Wan: "How's your Uncle Owen and Aunt Peru?" Luke: "Well done".

Paul's point was that preventing the Jihad entirely would have led to death by stagnation for all of humanity. The empire is already in decadence, duke Leto himself laments the degeneration of the great houses, even of house Atreides. Following the mythic theme Paul was guided by Ananke, goddess of necessity and inevitability, towards the Golden Path; he failed to take the final step, but fought for humanity to the end.

@TheGavrael

Ай бұрын

Yep yep. Before taking the Water of Life, he was scared of the jihad and hoped to avoid it. After taking the Water and glimpsing the Golden Path, he understands the necessity of the jihad.

@omegaminoseer4539

Ай бұрын

You would think that The Golden Path would have made a far more interesting route for humanity rather than a SECOND Jihad. We already were crippled by AI. Now we have a group of cultists killing us with guns and steel, with the expressed purpose of glorious revolution. Change sure is good!

@anguscampbell3020

Ай бұрын

No, Paul walks away from the Golden path you're mixing him up with Leto. Paul was not guided by this goddess, Herbert never mentions this at all. Paul makes the death of humanity more likely, its his son that goes on the golden path. And Leto's golden path involves teaching humanity to never trust leaders like Paul or Leto again.

@peterg9729

Ай бұрын

So why continue the empire which must always be doomed since nobody can control an entire Galaxy. Especially when you have no computers and rely on space junkies eating giant worm shite for transport.

@MidlifeCrisisJoe

Ай бұрын

One could even argue that Paul tried to be as heroic as he could, and though he failed, set his son, Leto II, up to become the true hero of the Golden Path. Since Paul couldn't go through with the necessary steps toward the Golden Path that he forsaw because he felt they would be too monstrous, and he knew his son (having been born of exceedingly strange circumstance) could.

@13:19 "'ees NOT the messiah, 'ees a very naughty boy!" OK that one had me laugh out loud!

Paul doesn't prevent the Jihad because he can see the far more horrific alternative as well. The Denis films don't portray this at all, and simply make you believe the jihad is all Paul sees. It may have been intentional to prevent any sort of spoilers for the rest of the book series, but not showing this does make Paul look like a total sociopath at the end rather than a person stuck between a rock and a hard place.

@darthtleilaxu4021

Ай бұрын

In the movie, he said that he saw different paths.

@neonlost

Ай бұрын

in the book doesn't he also see a future with no jihad but he'd have to make peace with the barron and he wants to avenge his father instead

@stephengrant4841

Ай бұрын

Doesn't he not see the "horrific alternative" until after the book? Fairly certain that in Messiah he's thinking about his visions and says he's since seen worse things than the jihad after becoming Emperor.

Paul gets the call to action, but he says no- not being willing to become the bad guy needed to rescue humanity, and not being willing to undergo the massive transformation required.

@VespoLiveGaming

Ай бұрын

...and ironically, he still becomes the leader of a devastating holy war and founds the most tyrannical dynasty in history anyway.

@VespoLiveGaming

Ай бұрын

The first Dune novel is one big extended call to action. The emperor's summons to arrakis is NOT the call. Paul's prescient vision of what would later be known as the Golden Path is the call to action. We never get to know thst vision until much later in the series, but THAT is the call to which Paul says NO.

Paul Atreides is a perfect example of that batman meme. He's not the hero Dune deserved, but he's the hero Arrakis needed.

@23Lgirl

Ай бұрын

kzread.info/dash/bejne/ZGp7ssOGn8jPpZc.html

It’s Paul’s sister Alia that becomes possessed by the Baron not his daughter Ghanima. She gets away Scott free.

@LostChord

Ай бұрын

It’s in the pinned comment.

@thomasmclennon4746

Ай бұрын

Forgive me, but it's "scot-free". Lowercase "s", one "t" and a hyphen.

@spacedinosaur8733

Ай бұрын

Yes, the memories of Paul and Chani protect Leto II and Ghanima.

@shazmodeus2795

Ай бұрын

Alia really got it the worst, she was a proper tragic tale.

"Dune: a short critique" So I guess the video will only be 5 hours long?

@chasehedges6775

Ай бұрын

A 6 to 7 and 8-hour review would suffice

@LostChord

Ай бұрын

Given this is just 1/3rd of the introduction, I’d say 5 hours is probably about right.

@vespenegas261

Ай бұрын

@@LostChord Not enough

@alvarotavares1966

Ай бұрын

@@LostChord God bless the long Great work!

@k92ful

Ай бұрын

​@@LostChordI'm really glad to hear this. Love your videos

Paul did what he needed to do to survive and to exact revenge for his father-and to restore his family’s dynasty

@athenax

Ай бұрын

He didn't restore his family's dynasty, he fucked over humanity and his son had the balls to do what his revenge drunken father couldn't do, and that was to ensure humanity prevails. Paul was a failed hero, his son finished what he ran from

@apples8872

Ай бұрын

@@athenaxbut his son wouldn’t of existed if Paul didn’t follow his own path.

24:30 His meeting of the woman as goddess/temptress is his encounter with the water of life. It is specifically a feminine ritual that corresponds to the Celtic idea of the cauldron and connection of all women to their ancestor mothers. Paul as the Kwisatz Haderach is the one male that has ever passed the trial and united and subjugated both the feminine and masculine within himself.

He stuck his hand in an old woman's box. I don't know if that makes him a hero or not, but I respect the conviction.

"Dune: Paul Atreides is NOT a Hero" I mean, that's been established for about 50 years...

@thomasnelon5422

Ай бұрын

yet you’d be surprised how so many still don’t understand this today due to a lack of media literacy.

@DoroteoVilla

Ай бұрын

Remember the uproar about Paul being yet another white savior? 50 years ain’t been long enough.

@notfromhere8889

Ай бұрын

Dune 1 and Dune 2 show him being a hero, but very quietly tell you he is a villain. His big "evil" moment was yelling at the fremen and claiming to be the chosen one before leading them to victory over clearly evil enemies.

@Alex.Holland

Ай бұрын

I don't understand this take. Paul is literally hero by almost every definition of the word. He is noble, courageous, he's admired by trillions of people, worshipped even. If fate had offered him better choices, we have no reason to think he wouldn't have taken those better options. His only failings are deeply human ones, like not being willing to sacrifice himself and his loved ones to avoid the deaths of others, or shying away from hard decisions to give himself more time with his spouse. Hes a shitty father and brother, and a bit of a coward in some hyper trolley problem existential fate of mankind type decision making, and ultimately that foists the sacrifice and work of finishing the job of saving humanity itself on to his children. Do you people just think "hero" is synonymous with "black and white morality good guy?"@@thomasnelon5422

@onylra6265

Ай бұрын

Paul is The Hero, on crack and steroids. But in the real world there never was a good hero. It's not that Paul isn't a hero - he's the best hero ever - it's that the whole concept is fucked up, myths and fantasy are for morons and babies. It's a mockery, a parody of childish worldviews and cloistered naivete.

Paul was never a hero and he truly never wanted to be, he was manipulated his entire life and he ditches his “golden path” the moment he can once Chani dies after giving birth to the twins, the entire point of Dune was to tell people to be wary of charismatic leaders, NOT a hero story.

@vespenegas261

Ай бұрын

Even so it's more compelling than *anything* Tinseltown produced churned out for the last 5 years.

I can't wait for the 6-hour version of this

Member when Rey returned to Tatooine and used brain-magic to make it rain because she _is_ the Kwisatz Haderach? I member that, I'm fairly sure.

@spacedinosaur8733

Ай бұрын

Well she is a "Skywalker" now, and she'll be starting up the old Moisture Farm too I bet.

Paul is a Great Man beyond a mere Hero... he is an Augustus or Hitler, someone who shapes everything that comes after him.

@totallynuts7595

Ай бұрын

The way you phrase it makes it seem like Hitler did something good. And I don't mean that his actions lead to people being better, by realising how evil he was.

Is this first time Platoon is making a video about something that is good and not absolute trash? What a twist!

@LostChord

Ай бұрын

If you don’t count Andor. And Prey (mid). And House of the Dragon. And The Batman (also mid).

@brianmurphy6480

Ай бұрын

​@@LostChordIn his (somewhat lackadaisical) defense, your verbal takedowns are absolutely legendary. I intentionally stay sober for those; videos like these, I can comfortably relax amid the dying screams of my few remaining brain cells. 🥲

@Kyle-sr6jm

Ай бұрын

But honestly, how much in the past decade has actually been GOOD? The opportunities to break down a great piece of work are not frequent.

@Objectified

Ай бұрын

@@Kyle-sr6jm Prey got a 94% / 77% from critics (DEI) and audiences but he considers it mid. The Batman receive 85% / 87% but he also considers it mid. Perhaps he's using a different definition of mid than most people.

@peterg9729

Ай бұрын

You do know he's talking about Dune, which is not now, and will never be, by any measure, good?

I do love viewing these bite-sized video essays. Keep up the great work, LostChord/The Little Platoon. ❤️👍

Nonsense, Lisan Al-Gaib will lead us to Paradise.

Great teaser for the upcoming 10 hour video! I’m very excited.

i don't understand how people keep saying this. his actions set the stage for the ultimate SALVATION OF ALL HUMANITY! if that's not heroic, i don't know what is. but unlike other heroes who merely die to save humanity, paul does a shit ton of killing. he's not a traditional hero. he's a genocidal hero.

Of course Paul isn't a hero, he's a terrified child possessed by power he can hardly understand forcing a change within his sight, depth of thought, and forcing his ancestor's personalities into his mind. The terrified child lasts all the way to him denying the Golden Path, and dooming his child, Leto, to insure it, nomatter the cost.

I'm tickled by the fact that this is a video as long as most people can really bear, and yet it's only a teaser of the a much larger piece.

Once you undergo your metamorphosis, you will put the right emphasis on the right syllable.

This was a tantalizing taste (comparing /contrasting) of what’s to come. I can’t wait for the main course. 🥂

Paul saw he couldn't stop the jihad without killing himself and everyone he knew, made the decision to continue on so he could attempt to control it then when he saw that was impossible he walked into the desert to die. Only no he didn't die, he came back as the preacher to try and tear down the corrupt society that he had created. He may not fit the pretentious and pedantic academic definition of what a hero is but he is a hero nonetheless.

@Gustav_Kuriga

Ай бұрын

You clearly took the wrong lesson from Dune then.

@lincawebot3681

Ай бұрын

​@@Gustav_Kuriga You clearly don't have a counterargument to make, otherwise you'd explain why my post is wrong instead of merely stating that it is.

5:52 Minor nitpick, but Luke's wingmates in A New Hope are *Red* Squadron; Rogue Squadron were formed by Luke and Wedge on Hoth, and just incidentally became the most famous starship squadron in movie history.

Damn.. i just realized “You’re all clear kid, now lets blow this thing and go home” is a very disney appropriate quote 10:20

Not a hero but still the protagonist and definitely not the villain. Someone who becomes perfect in everything they do and flawless in their decisions is ultimately boring. Even if Herbert thought he created a character people should hate he didn't realize that complicated people are more interesting than "heroes".

@MidlifeCrisisJoe

Ай бұрын

He didn't want people to hate Paul. That's not the point. The point of Paul Atreides is tragedy. He's supposed to be more like Oedipus rather than either Antigone or Faust. He sees the future and becomes caught up in it despite his foreknowledge. He sees the great evil that will be done, but tries to guide it to at least achieve a longer lasting good that no one living will see.

@GreenBlueWalkthrough

Ай бұрын

Meanwhile the most known characters on earth Jeus Christ ,Santa Cluas and Mario are all perfect beings that people try to write flaws into... Kinda comes off as fan fiction and I "fixed your stuff" when they do. So yes I and a few can it's just stupid hard to.

@MidlifeCrisisJoe

Ай бұрын

@@GreenBlueWalkthroughWhat flaws can Mario have without reducing him to Luigi?

@Gustav_Kuriga

Ай бұрын

Villain protagonists are a thing. Protagonist is just the viewpoint of the story. That's all it is.

loving your content. you are killing it lately

Great video @LostChord really interesting, looking forward to the full version. As far as the first book is concerned, Paul character read's to me as a Hero's journey. The complexity comes when his character is read in its trilogy arc with Dune Messiah and Children of Dune added in, then his story does become one of a Tragic Hero - in the Greek Tragedy tradition as outlined by Aristotle. I think you raise an interesting point about Luke from the original Star Wars trilogy being multiple Heroes Journey's over individual films and the three film arc as well. You also raised an interesting parallel with the general audiences dislike when the heroes they had come to know and love had been changed into tragic heroes. I think because Luke's whole three film story arc was one of being just a pure hero, his treatment in the sequel trilogy seemed all the more sudden and egregious. With Paul's character, his decline into tragedy seems much more gradual and feels much more natural after the conclusion of his three book story arc; however, at the time of Dune Messiah coming out, the general audience didn't like the change to Paul's character as they all thought it a betrayal of the Hero's story they just read. At any rate, you've given me much to think about in one of my most treasured book series, at least until your next video. Best wishes Platoon, keep up the great work

Goddamn. I'm listening to this while playing PoE, and was wondering why I started feeling a bit of a chill and getting goosebumps, till I realised I was listening to Han save Luke. I legit never realised that apparently meant a lot more to me than I thought, as I haven't actually seen New Hope since I was watching my dad's lazerdisks nearly 2 decades ago.

I base my opinions purely on what I see, and Paul makes several valiant and heroic actions across the two films. I get that theyre trying to tell me "messiah bad" and that his actions will lead to a lot of death, but they are also telling me that his Golden Path is the onky way hunanity survives. So I still see heroism there

@spencerwilliams461

Ай бұрын

But My Media literacy! Lol

@FortheSakeoftheComments

Ай бұрын

Hercules does many heroic things. However, he does them to atone for murdering his wife and children. And after he does those heroic things, he murders his next wife and children - a fact the myths often gloss over. A heroic action doesn’t make you a heroic person.

@spencerwilliams461

Ай бұрын

@@FortheSakeoftheComments If people see you as the hero, you are a hero. It is what it is. That is the major takeaway from Dune that Paul is a hero, the people have decided. No amount of attempts to circumvent this by media and or alleged claims of writers will change anything. The writer going "well actually" and trying to undo what cannot be done is an exercise in failure.... For the father, nothing!

@FortheSakeoftheComments

Ай бұрын

@@spencerwilliams461 I never saw him as a hero. Why is your impression more valid than mine? Especially since the FREAKING AUTHOR agrees with me? I can’t believe this is even an argument.

@Radbiker33357

Ай бұрын

@@FortheSakeoftheCommentshow is he not a hero? By Dune alone, imagine not having access to Dune messiah and everything after just like when it came out in 1965, what speaks that he isn’t one? He’s the product of hundreds of years of forced breeding to make the ultimate being, his family gets killed by the emperor- whom saw his family getting too strong- and a traitorous cousin. He unlocks his ability to see the future and realizes the least worst future to not only get revenge for his destroyed people and empire, but to also free and liberate the Fremen whose planet was stolen and oppressed from them by the harkonnen. He actively avoids the worst possible future because he doesn’t want to see innocent people killed. He even secures his place among the Fremen, falls in love and becomes a great leader as both husband, brother, son, and Fremen that helps actively kill oppressive and torturous Harkonnen/Sardaukar. Then to finally take the throne to secure his place to stop the Bene Gesserit and House treachery/corruption in the galaxy, all while sparing the emperor mercy and still keeping his wife. ALSO all in the name of him and his family name: Atreides. And even memorializes his dad that he looked up to, loved, and did all these actions almost as a way to honor his premature death to villains. Is it the revenge? Is it because he followed the prescience? Is it because he led the Fremen as a Messiah? Is it the possibility of Jihad? The story doesn’t give much options for him to not follow his destiny, and implies that he should’ve died in the Jamis fight to prevent the Jihad. But then the Harkonnens would’ve still oppressed and tortured the millions of Fremen that lived there so…? I’m genuinely curious and want to see/hear a different perspective. There’s also no mention of the golden path in Dune, having just read it two weeks ago, so I don’t expect to see that as an answer since it doesn’t get mentioned until Children of Dune.

Bloody genius!… My man you are head and shoulders above any of your contemporaries! I particularly love your pronunciation of Denis Vir-miuir’s name.

Got the flu and I'm laid out. Thanks platoon for something to listen to while I deal with this fever! Cheers broski

We now need the Sargon/Platoon discussion to complete a trifecta

@biospark4758

Ай бұрын

Sargon of Applebee’s? What’s that lolcow up to these days?

@MidlifeCrisisJoe

Ай бұрын

@@biospark4758Redemption.

@biospark4758

Ай бұрын

@@MidlifeCrisisJoe did he ever apologize for calling Metokur a groomer or destroying UKIP for a grift?

@MidlifeCrisisJoe

Ай бұрын

@@biospark4758No, but Gamergate 2.0 is apparently happening like he predicted, and if things keep going the way they're going, Trump might actually tweet about it. Which, if he does, I do believe Jim will have to eat some of his merchandise for failing to get behind his 10-year plan when he was offered seats to the ground floor.

Can't wait for the full but 'quick' review!

Can't wait for the full vid!

I think he IS a hero. When you take into account that he has a much longer view of the future than other people in the Dune universe. And the fact that he steers the future towards saving all of humanity from an outside threat. What could he be but a hero? His methods were necessary.

@Jaketholemeu

Ай бұрын

@@zogwort1522 we can't pretend or not pretend on this one without more data. But since he did write more books, I don't have to pretend anything. I can quote more of his writing.

Fantastic video. Great work . Keep it up.

So he's supposed to let the obviously bad guys just keep running things? If you kill your enemy, they win?

Nice job throwing in a Monty Python clip like that. I truly love that movie, especially the part with the emperor.

I am so looking forward to the whole video!

Maybe people will question my media literacy for this, but Paul representing charismatic leaders we should be weary of doesn’t sit right with me. Paul is clearly no hero, but he is in a grey area that makes him quite interesting. I think Dune poses an old dilemma, « does the end justify the means » in a quite interesting way, where both points could be argued for. Maybe Paul started as a warning against mesaïanic figures, but then the series evolved into something different. The actions he takes ARE the path to save humanity, only this path is filled with horror and death, which he eventually can’t get through with. in the end, Leto 2 does succeed in « saving » humanity. If Herbert really wanted to make cautionary tale, why would he show the Mesaia being right? Hence why I believe that dune proposes more the question of « is it worth it? Is saving humanity worth the billions of death and millennia of suffering? What really is ‘the greater good’? ». Without wanting the create a religious debate, it kind of reminds me when Christians reassure themselves when seeing horrors on earth and claim « god works in mysterious ways, it’s all part of god’s plan ». Paul and Leto 2 fall under the same thing, they have a plan to save humanity, the only plan, they work in mysterious ways since they know the golden path. And again, this asks, do horrible things get justified if it’s in the name of a greater good? By having Leto II succeed, it leaves the door open for debating. Anyway, that’s my 2 cents on it, obviously this is pretty surface level but it’s a KZread comment. I just don’t see it when people claim dune’s main message is to be weary of charismatic leaders like Paul, I could get it if Paul did it for power, but here, it’s much more nuanced depiction especially looking at the arching story of the 6 books.

@Left4Ted

Ай бұрын

I havent read any of the books but what youre saying was my takeaway from the films as well. To me it definitely comes off as a "does the end justify the means" kind of dilemma for Paul and eventually he decides that the holy war would be justified. Maybe I'm just a dumbdumb though, who knows!

In the context of the first book, he very much was a hero. Sadly Frank later broke him down to serve some deconstructionist wetdream of his, and frankly the entire cycle suffered fore it IMO.

@FortheSakeoftheComments

Ай бұрын

no Herbert never intended him to be a hero and was upset at how many people took it that way. He wrote “Messiah” to spoon feed his intentions to people who couldn’t understand subtleties.

@ardalwinterborn

Ай бұрын

@@FortheSakeoftheComments Frank changed his mind after writing Dune, it was a classic Hero's Journey with awesome worldbuilding, sad to see it frittered away by shabby intent after the fact.

@Gustav_Kuriga

Ай бұрын

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

@ardalwinterborn

Ай бұрын

@@Gustav_Kuriga Clearly, you have drunk deeply of the Kool Aid

@stephengrant4841

Ай бұрын

In the context of the first, you understand that Paul winning will spark a jihad across the universe. That's made abundantly clear time and time again. You're objectively incorrect.

Luke never got those power converters.

GOTs' Daenarys Targarean is a better parallel to Paul Atreides, although poorly executed in the show, and the audience clearly didn't understand.

@stur3366

11 күн бұрын

I would agree if most of her actions were justified by the outcome. Paul saw all of humanity go extinct because of stagnation and followed a very narrow path to prevent it, but he couldn't go through with it. But daenerys only became a tyrant because she thought her way was better than everyone else. We are only told she want to break the wheel, but never told what to replace it with. She ends up replacing it with her own wheel.

Paul isn't a typical hero, but I would not call him a villain either.

@janosbrutyo2835

Ай бұрын

Yeah, false dichotomy in this case. Paul is more a victim of fate with the curse of seeing the cage unlike the average Joe. And primarily a cautionary tale against the dangers of blindly following charismatic leaders as the result can be horrifying despite their best intentions. Frank Herbert openly stated that and doubled down on this message in Dune Messiah as many clearly missed the memo in the first book casually considering him just a hero.

@illyrianaa

Ай бұрын

@@janosbrutyo2835how many more times are y’all gonna post this “cautionary tale” copypaste? Y’all sound like npcs 🥱

@janosbrutyo2835

Ай бұрын

@@illyrianaa trivia do be like that. Still better than throwing a temper tantrum over it LMAO

@PaulAtreidees

17 күн бұрын

I think he is in category fallen hero

Ah yes, the OG Anakin Skywalker.

The Golden Path is key

Neither me nor my brother were big literature academics, but it became very clear when we watched the movie that something was very wrong with what Paul was going through. Of course it is not a hero's journey. That's the reason it's actually very interesting!

@23Lgirl

Ай бұрын

kzread.info/dash/bejne/ZGp7ssOGn8jPpZc.html

Maud'Dib was a hero by the desert Fremen and villain by the city dwellers and off outworlders. A hero and villain is defined in the eye of the beholder.

@ToriHiragana

Ай бұрын

Funny I'm actually writing a novel about this concept, a prophesied messiah of a downtrodden people is also the prophesied apocalypse of the ruling civilization

@Absaalookemensch

Ай бұрын

@@ToriHiraganaYou could compare and contrast how the protagonist is viewed by the different sides. If he is bad, start him off in the viewpoint of his people, to make him look good, then show the other point of view how he is a villain. Or visa versa.

@hafirenggayuda

14 күн бұрын

​@@ToriHiraganaI always think both Messiah and Anti-Christ is the same person or idea. A protector for their own side, destroyer of all other opposition.

13:17 I commend you on the best application of this clip I have ever seen.

this was genuinely very interesting, brilliant

The fact that you have to make a video essay about it means HE IS, atleast to some people, which is all it takes to be one.

@FortheSakeoftheComments

Ай бұрын

That logic is atrocious. Staring with the fact that I think the author gets some say in whether or not his characters are heroes or not.

@zinjanthropus322

Ай бұрын

@@FortheSakeoftheComments Not at all, the author is merely the vehicle the story takes to get to an audience. How they react to the characters is entirely up to them.

@drascalicus5187

Ай бұрын

​@@FortheSakeoftheCommentsI suggest you look at some of Terrible Writing Advice's videos, especially about villains. Just because author says the character is bad, doesn't mean the character is bad when looked at the piece. It is up to the author to make it so.

"Actually", in ep 4 it's red squadron. Rouge squadron existed only after luke founds it after the battle of yavin

As a follower of the books my takeaway was that Paul’s journey is a cautionary tale of unintended actions and consequences. At least that was my take but people are free to take away whatever interpretations they want from the books and movies. Depending on your perspective Paul can represent any number of virtues and vices. Paul is definitely not purely motivated by good nor should he be in the complex inner workings of a feudalistic interstellar empire. I’m fine with this - it’s not meant to be Star Wars and the good and bad isn’t black and white.

Dune 1 and 2 make him a hero to keep the audience feeling good and make money. They quietly tell you he isn't a hero but show him doing brave or heroic things, ultimately defeating a clearly evil force.

I have a feeling that "A Short Critique" is being used facetiously. Can't wait! 🙂

I remember reading "Dune" as a young, impressionable teenager, and it just broke my heart. I had never looked into such a bleak abyss of hopelessness as Herbert envisioned. Even reading the horrors of ancient and modern history, the writers were never so miserable and pessimistic as Herbert (unless you count the philosopher Lucretius). As a middle-aged woman, I have come to see Herbert as guilty of being simplistic as Jung himself, but I do see him as a whetstone for more well-founded worldviews.

@MidlifeCrisisJoe

Ай бұрын

It's a bit extreme to call Herbert "simplistic." A successful series of novels that revolutionize science fiction while holding onto a mythic structure is hardly simple. But I suppose you could be truly galaxy-brained, and smarter than everyone on Earth who ever lived, or will live.

@APsychicMonkey

Ай бұрын

It's only depressing if you believe history is progressive, not cyclical. Technology improves, human nature can never change. Dune represents a repudiation of technophile utopianism. Technology became too powerful and was destroyed. Humanity embraces its baser, feudalistic tendencies. Only children and people who refuse to grow up believe in the endless march of progress.

@Gustav_Kuriga

Ай бұрын

Did we read the same novel? The bleakness doesn't even come until several novels in. At that point it's just a sci-fi setting with a lot of depth, but nothing that makes it especially bleak. You've clearly never read any of the Xeelee Sequence.

@forceofchaos1

Ай бұрын

You're saying Jung was simplistic? 😂😂😂😂

I like the comparison to the mythological figure, and I hadn't heard of Lord Raglan before. But I think you could definitely still also call Paul a hero -- not a Campbellian hero, but a classic tragic hero. The ending of Dune Messiah could come straight out of a Greek tragedy, for instance. That's what I took from the books (I read them first). The weight of Paul's prescience and the internal struggle he faces regarding what his actions may lead to is one of the most compelling parts of the book, in my opinion, and I was sad that this was largely glossed over in the movie.

@Kyle-sr6jm

Ай бұрын

The movies focus on the events, while generally ignoring the consequences and implications of the events.

@colbyentzminger217

Ай бұрын

Precisely. Campbell even has variant archetypes for various heroes, one of which is the Tyrant Hero. I believe Paul fits both archetypes very well, the Hero and the Mythological figure. Herbert writes Paul as a 'hero,' in order to force the audience to redefine 'hero.' To be wary every time we use the word. Otherwise, Paul is simply a villain.

Its nice seeing old movies that rely on acting to convey and not useless expostion to barf onto me what a character feels.

Thank you for some tedious academic stuff!

If you need a 30 minute video essay to help you conclude that Paul is not a hero, I don’t think you actually comprehended the story in the first place

At 23:18 - The supernatural element is the planet Arrakis itself. At one point, Paul, under the influence of spice, communicates directly with the spirit of the planet, which whispers to him what he must do. It's a brief segment, and one could argue the whole interaction is a hallucination induced by spice. But the element is there, nonetheless.

The problem with Dune, or so what I believe, is that from the POV given to the viewers is that of the oppressed and the wronged, which we instinctively root for. The dangers of Messiah, the point is not able to get across when the enemy desires genocide of the oppressed whom we, and the main character, spend time with. For the Fremen and from us, the viewers through Fremen, Paul is the hero. The consequences may extend to expanse degree later on, but not to the only POV we were given and that of the Fremen, with the movie the actual consequence is left for the third one. For most of the time that we spend with the cast. The idea is simple and that Fremen are to be killed, but Paul the Messiah can lead them to paradise and save them, and there is nothing of a lie within that statement. I haven't read the books, but from what I have heard, the reception was similar with people not "getting the point" which led to the release of Dune Messiah. I would like to scrutinize that the point isn't about "the dangers of Messiah figure" but rather believing in someone as a Messiah. Since believing in a Messiah where the person happens to be evil would just give way to the idea that a good Messiah exists which Dune editor also said not to be the point. Paul isn't the bad person, it's just the position he is put into. But by doing so the Messiah to the people who have nothing, The point becomes quite null. Feel free to let me know what you think.

Hey, Platoon- intriguing video as always. But what I'm wondering is- what was so much *worse* an option, that Paul instead willingly unleashed a _jihad_ that killed 60 billion? In Avengers: Infinity War/ Endgame- Strange only foresaw *_one_* chance, amongst however many millions of possibilities- to beat Thanos- it was a choice that cost billions of lives, though eventually restored most of them- but the cost was still felt, well after the event. Has there ever been a non-fanfic 'what if'/ 'darkest timeline' projection, to answer matters? Seems to me that he was never given much of a choice; he was either going to be used by the Bene Gesserit, or held up by the Fremen -- I'm pretty new to the world of Dune, so I may be missing a lot- but I watch you, & a couple of other channels covering Dune- so I'm under the impression that Paul just had to- pick his poison, as it were...

I think that part of why Paul's journey in the movies is made to resemble a classic heroes journey was an active choice by Denis to make Paul as charismatic as possible and present him to the audience as a hero because that's what he is to those who believe in him. The fact that we don't see what the jihad will bring is not an omission. Only Paul is able to see the consequences of his actions. In context he's not a hero but the context is yet to happen and his actions in the present correspond to the hero archetype.

@GreenBlueWalkthrough

Ай бұрын

Yeah in the crecent flims how the shots are done are very biblical and epic... Which is funny becuase star wars is not that yet meant to be something like that.

Thanks, as always very enlightening and enjoyable. Paul always struck me as someone who _tried_ to be good (as he saw it) but was gradually broken by the cumulative effect of forces that were too powerful for him. He could see parts of it in the future and was tormented by it. To me, definitely he was not a hero, but somehow he was relatable and worthy of sympathy.

Pretty sure he's a TRAGIC hero, no? He trries to avert the consequences of his revenge... and fails.

Lovely excerpt from a clearly short video to come. But I ask everyone: is the Dune duology worth taking a gander at? Was told with part 1 that I'd be better off wwaiting until part 2, and now am unsure.

On the matter of the blood relations, considering the Bene Gesserit 'breeding program' odds are most of the Great Houses of the Landsraad are related to a greater or smaller degree.

30:30 So this 30 mins was the forward to the preamble before you get started? omg, ok, let's go!

I agree with your general assessment, though I respectfully disagree with the argument at about 28:05 - 28:50 Though the books are much more in-depth than the new films - because as a reader we have a clearer understanding of Pauls Visions, Dreams and Fears - that is mostly because of perspective and somewhat because of the difference in approach and medium. In contrast to the book, we are mostly in a "third person" perspective and gain only limited insight into Paul in the new films. Our understanding of his thoughts and motives are pretty similar to that of his mother. In fact, I would argue that even the glimpse into his devastating future we see in the latest film is not Pauls but Jessicas'. In my view that is also why the latest film is seemingly qualifying this devastation as a kind of necessary evil which is the utilitarian view the Bene-Gesserit would take. That would also line up with Villeneuve's focus on them as the main driving forces in a slight contrast to the books. Also: According to the films, Jessica is a Niece of 2nd Degree to Leto. Which - when seen in context with the Bene Gesserits "little Eugenics project" - would line up pretty good.

20:27 That's Alia that gets possessed by the Baron, not Ghanima. The sister, not the daughter.

@LostChord

Ай бұрын

Oh bugger, yes it is. Not sure how that one slipped in there. I’ll get that amended in the full video!

@sardonically-inclined7645

Ай бұрын

@@LostChord Looking forward to it 👍

I find it intriguing that Lucas, using Campbell, managed to convey his concepts quite successfully while people like Herbert and say, Alan Moore, can never seem to get people to “get on board”. They are always misinterpreted, so to speak, and always have to use some sort of supplemental information to show people what they are trying to say. I might go so far as to say maybe people reject their ideas for a deeper reason than simple lack of understanding. Something inside people rejects those ideas, and that might just be a credit to them, not a deficiency.

@Alex.Holland

Ай бұрын

People are quite simple, and the best way to convey ideas to them is to use basic, traditional archetypes, stereotypes etc. about the same types of people we have told stories about for hundreds of thousands of years, doing deeply human relatable stuff. Artists are often a bit too clever for their own good, and spend their lives going deeper than the average person, get a bit bored with the standard types of stories and story telling, want to subvert or deconstruct it a bit, maybe critique humanity or society a bit, and shocker, it doesn't land that well with the general populace. Herbert realized and accepted his failing in this regard, and worked to change it up some for later books. Moore doubled down and refused to accept his failing to communicate, and blamed consumers for not meeting him where his head was at. The consumers of art are never "wrong" with their take on art. Artists only fail to communicate what they intended to.

@Alex.Holland

Ай бұрын

Also I appreciate your kinda wholesome pro human take about this being a credit to them. I don't know exactly what you mean, but its admirable to try to put a positive spin on it rather than a more doomer take.

@WarGamerGirl

Ай бұрын

I think I would agree with your take on this. I also agree it is a credit to people, not a deficiency.

@peterg9729

Ай бұрын

Or the can't write for toffee?

@MidlifeCrisisJoe

Ай бұрын

Yes. Society and humanity only thrive when people can appreciate life. With all its ups *and* downs. Rejecting the doomer's intended message of pessimism and just filtering it enough that you get most of it but choose to see it optimistically instead? It's cope, but it's the cope that keeps humanity alive and appreciating life.

Denis Villeneuve destroyed Chani's character (Zendaya). There is nothing wrong with having a character or group of characters deny Paul is the Messiah/Mahdi, but it shouldn't have been her. Her character arch is that her absolute devotion to Paul destroys her in the end. End him too for that matter. She shouldn't have been the one to be calling him out. Denis Villeneuve changed the character solely to give Zendaya a more prominent role, but he could have done so without destroying her character.

Paul is a hero, but he does not have a free hand, he's constrained by circumstances. At the end he faces a choice between three potential outcomes: a universe dominated by the Atredies; dominated by the savage Harkonen; or by the Emperor (who is perfectly content to employ the savagery of the Harkonen). The fact that Paul’s story does not follow the Campbell blueprint is irrelevant.

@springbloom5940

Ай бұрын

Hes a megalomaniacal cult leader

@23Lgirl

Ай бұрын

kzread.info/dash/bejne/ZGp7ssOGn8jPpZc.html

I still can't get over what they did to Luke Skywalker

Based on your usual video length, I have a feeling it's not gonna be so short.

“No more terrible disaster could befall your people than for them to fall into the hands of a Hero,” - Dr. Liet Kynes I disagree with the conclusion in this video. In college I did an analysis and concluded that Paul indeed fits the hero archetype, but with the sub-point of being the Hero-tyrant. This sub-variant of the Hero’s Journey is known as the Emperor and as the Tyrant archetype. With this archetype, the Hero by the end sets himself up as the tyrant of the land. To quote Hero with a Thousand Faces, Campbell writes: “(The hero) is no longer the mediator between the two worlds. Man’s perspective flattens to include only the human term of the equation, and the experience of a supernatural power immediately fails. The upholding idea of the community is lost. Force is all that binds it. The emperor becomes the tyrant ogre, the usurper from whom the world is now to be saved.”

@colbyentzminger217

Ай бұрын

Throughout Frank Herbert’s Dune, Paul Atreides follows the major arc of a mythological hero as detailed in chapter 3 of Hero With a Thousand Faces; separation-initiation-return. Dune is separated into three separate parts: Dune, Maud’dib, and The Prophet. The first section details the separation portion of the journey in the form of the Atreides’ migration to Arrakis. It begins with the call to adventure on Caladan, and crossing the first threshold on Arrakis. By the end of the first initiation, the characters find themselves in the Belly of the Whale of the story with the betrayal by Dr. Yueh. This summons the attack by the Harkonnens which culminates in the death of Duke Leto, and the scattering of Gurney, Thifur Hawat, and Paul with his mother Rebecca. By the last paragraph, Paul has begun to realize his power and laments the tragedy that has befallen them.’ Second, Paul and his mother undergo the Initiation phase with the Fremen. They make their way through the road of trials in the desert with the help of Dr. Liet Kynes and Duncan Idaho until they eventually come in contact with the Fremen. There, Paul kills one of their members and takes his place in the Sietch. Both Paul and his Mother encounter a “Goddess' ' respectively; Paul meets with Chani, and Rebecca comes in contact with the Fremen Reverend Mother. By the end of this second section, Paul embraces his role as the Lisan al-gaib, the Muad’dib with prophetic foresight which would lead them to victory. In terms of the hero’s journey, this is considered the Ultimate Boon.’ The third and final aspect of the Hero’s Journey is the Return. Taking place nearly two years after the events in the first and second parts, Paul has now established himself within the Fremen as a formidable warrior hero. Although his ambition to destroy the Harkonnens remain, he has become accustomed to the desert life, though another trial remains. In the Hero’s journey, this is known as the Magic Flight, a supernatural form of transport that aids them in victory. In Dune, this takes form in Paul learning how to wrangle and ride the sandworms. By the end, the Harkonnens return to Arrakis to ensure control, but this proves to be their downfall. Seizing the opportunity, Paul leads the Fremen to destroy the Harkonnens and Paul seizes the Imperial throne for himself through force. In this, he simultaneously becomes Master of the Two Worlds and offers Freedom to live.’ Dune is organized as a traditional Hero’s journey, striking many of the key chords that are found in timeless myths including those mentioned above, and to a lesser extent an argument could be made for those tropes left unmentioned. This is due to Paul’s separation, initiation, and return throughout the duration of the book. Although Frank Herbert challenges convention with his interpretation of messianic prophecy and the tyrant hero, it must not be mistaken that Paul Atreides was written as a heroic archetype and that this is necessary in order for the author to properly offer criticism for the archetype itself.

The word “Metamorphosis” is pronounced with the emphasis on “Morph.”

17:55 Point four and five, having an unusual birth, is an interesting one. He is almost half god, and is destined to be evil. Anakin was also implied to be born from the force and is later an evil dictator second only to the devil incarnate, and I wonder if that was intentional on Lukas's part. But of course destiny in star wars isn't set in stone, so they aren't perfectly parallel.

Anakin Skywalker would be more comparable to Paul Atreides. Anakin dies and becomes Darth Vader, Paul dies and becomes Muad’Dib.

I never thought Paul was a hero other than he tried to resist becoming a monster. In the end, he gave in to the temptation of revenge.

What a stimulating thought experiment. Very well written and dictated! Thank you. Instañt sub!

He's not a straight up villain either but Denny kind of forgot about that.

@jcore0981

Ай бұрын

Denis, not Denny. And he clearly is not a straight-up villain in the movies either. Did you watch them?

@TheTrueRandomGamer

Ай бұрын

@@jcore0981 Did you?

@jcore0981

Ай бұрын

@@TheTrueRandomGamer Yup. It's pretty evident if you didn't jack the book off. He makes several mistakes and certainly chooses a destructive course. But he also avenged his father and killed a house of horrendously evil people. As well as give power to a group of people who were oppressed.

@TheTrueRandomGamer

Ай бұрын

@@jcore0981 This doesn't address the jihad or his reaction to it, which are the things that actually matter but okay. It's pretty evident if you make direct comparisons to the more nuanced and well presented source material.

@jcore0981

Ай бұрын

@TheTrueRandomGamer I'm sorry. Does he or does he not also commit mass genocide in the books? Or I'm sorry, is it too "nuanced" for my brain to process, Mr pretentious.

It's a tragic story in the books, but in movies it's a different case although not sure till 3rd part rolls in.

The plot structure I learned in school for storytelling and a hero’s journey is this: Exposition, Rising action, climax, falling action, and denouement.

@colbyentzminger217

Ай бұрын

A formula, done well to reject as it encapsulates only one type of storytelling.

@chasehedges6775

Ай бұрын

Fair enough

@GreenBlueWalkthrough

Ай бұрын

@@colbyentzminger217 While I can write and FPS style story structure where it's just a rise from the top... Not many else can and most people when asked what kind of story they like will point to one type... the "Hero's" jorney and Hollywood and amedia school know this too... So the hero's jorney is the standard type for everything... Which how can anyone disagree all of the high grossing media products of all time have it as their strucher so if you want the most apple write your media as the heros jorney.

@APsychicMonkey

Ай бұрын

​@@colbyentzminger217Wrong! A story without a beginning, middle and end isn't a story at all.

@colbyentzminger217

Ай бұрын

@@APsychicMonkey Lol. Naturally, but the idea of rising action being a single point, like a single large hill just isn't the case. That really only refers to Greek tragedies, in which the highest point of success is at the middle, before everything falls down.

Me: reads title Also me: duh

I want to quickly protest: In the book, the Hunter-Seeker assassination attempt is not legitimate, but is a diversionary tactic, and Baron Harkonnen reacts with anger to Peter de Vried's suggestion that an accident resulting in the attempt succeeding is possible. (The baron doesn't just want the atreides dead, but he also wants them utteryly and completely defeated in spirit.

In the first book it is the hero's journey, but with the followup book, which was less popular, Dune Messiah, it is clear that is no longer the case. So, if indeed the new films conical novel sequels, I should hope the filmmakers make this clear. So far, its just Dune part 1..2...3...maybe more.