Bonus! Completely unsolicited Dune theory which has basically nothing to do with the premise of the video; What are the Shai-hulud? There are no aliens in Dune other than creatures which have been created by human beings via genetic modification. Moreover, the very fact that Leto II was able to symbiotically merge with the sand-trout seems to indicate a biological compatibility between the Shai-Hulud and terrestrial life - and with humans in particular - despite their seemingly alien physiology and biochemistry. Moreover, moreover; the Shai-Hulud seem to be almost perfectly designed to completely transform the biospheres of entire planets so as to create the conditions necessary for the production and harvesting of spice, which is in turn ofc needed for the continuity of interstellar human civilization. It's just a bit too convenient that human beings would happen to "discover" these creatures specifically when they were most needed within the historical evolution of human interstellar civilization. Ergo; the Shai-Hulud are not aliens. They are organisms which were intentionally created (possibly with the use of **human** genetic materials) by an unnamed, archaic organization which would later split in two so as to form both the Bene Gesserit AND the Bene Tlilaxu. This is why in the later novels it is implied that there is a deep and mysterious connection between the Shai-Hulud and the Tlilaxu religious beliefs. This would also explain the similarities (and differences) between the Gesserit and Tlilaxu; they are the male and female halves of a long-forgotten proto-organization which set the entire meta-narrative of the Duneverse in motion by creating the Shai-Hulud (and therefore the spice). THUS, if the Shai-Hulud are an extremely modified form of terrestrial (and possibly even human) life, then this implies that the spice itself may be a chemical which is actually endogenous to terrestrial lifeforms; i.e., the spice must be some modified form of DMT

@crakhaed

2 ай бұрын

Hilarious and it actually sounds legit very plausible

@Aadinaadam

2 ай бұрын

We ARE organs and skin wrapped around a worm (our entire alimentary canal), so the idea is not far fetched at all.

@mvondoom

2 ай бұрын

totally valid possibility. i submit: perhaps the Shai-Hulud are that very thing that humanity is to evolve into after the scattering, and the whole thing is some grand cycle where our present and future forms meet. So Shai-Hulud are humanity in the future, returned to make its own evolution possible, by serving humanity of the present (unrelated: this reminds me of the idea that future forms of technology have time-travelled to the present in order to enable humans to evolve their proto-forms; i.e. humans are being used by technology to evolve itself).

@fusion9619

2 ай бұрын

If the universe is mental, then it makes sense that interstellar travel would be a psychic navigation, so modern psychonauts may in fact be the progenitors of the future pan-universal civilization.

@raycar1165

2 ай бұрын

I was with you until the last paragraph. The spice is more of a narcotic than a hallucinogen. Exposure leads to unlocking latent psychic abilities. And long term exposure can lead to genetic mutation. Hinted at with the blue eyes. But I could be wrong,, it’s been along time since I read it and I haven’t seen the new movies.

As a kid I was the biggest star wars fan ever, now I can't stomach it and I've completely fallen in love with Dune.

@StoneStraiff

2 ай бұрын

The new stuff that's been coming out is unbearable. George Lucas starwars was the shit.

@StoneStraiff

2 ай бұрын

It seems Disney is already meddling with Dune too. They just ruin everything they get thier hands on

@CN3891

2 ай бұрын

My older brothers gave me all their toys. The first trilogy was meaningful and sincere. The next was shitty action flicks. And now we have Disney.

@user-ny8gk8yo3f

2 ай бұрын

​@@StoneStraiffwh40k is edgy shit. Shittier than Disney star wars (i still Wonder how that possible)

@SubconsciousLight

2 ай бұрын

Kids go read original books. You can’t compare them to movies... George Lucas is hero

Friendship ended with Star Wars. Now DUNE is my best friend.

@MSpotatoes

2 ай бұрын

Lucasfilm is too proudy and give attitude.

@Hero_Of_Old

Ай бұрын

Thats what they want. To ruin the old objective morality, of good vs evil into the moral reletavism.

Paul ran so Anakin could walk

@AniTube-ds8uz

2 ай бұрын

This is so mean 🤣🤣🤣

@savage7882

2 ай бұрын

Anakin's story is incredibly compelling by itself as well. Sci fi elitists turbowanking Herbert because Dune came first never ceases to be irritating. Both series are great and both do different things on their own.

@draco9513

2 ай бұрын

Anakin>Paul

@Snavels

2 ай бұрын

​@@savage7882I'm sorry man, Anakin was done so dirty by George Lucas, yeah the concept is very interesting, but it wasn't executed well and no amount of cartoon companion shows can fix the damage that Lucas himself did to Anakin.

@ccl7983

Ай бұрын

@@Snavelsclone war’s 03 & clone wars 08 I feel like fixed whatever problem people had with Anakin

I think Andor is a shining example of how star wars Isnt dead as an idea, its just disney's handling of it that killed it Andor shows you star wars can be done right

@jaffarebellion292

2 ай бұрын

The entire Expanded Universe did exactly that long before Andor. Timothy Zahn's Thrawn Trilogy revitalized the fanbase back in 1991, and Kotor 2 changed how a lot of people thought about the Force. It's fitting that said EU was unceremoniously axed by Disney back in 2014.

@andrewkorn456

2 ай бұрын

I agree 100%

@crusader2112

2 ай бұрын

@@jaffarebellion292 Still one of the biggest blunders in media history.

@alexschneider8494

2 ай бұрын

Star Wars refuses to mature.

@jaffarebellion292

2 ай бұрын

@alexschneider8494 It WAS mature before Disney bought it and it backslid like a drunk dude getting launched off the back of a treadmill.

Idk who this man is, but hearing someone express the same exact saga analysis I can't stop hyperfixating, archetypally concentrating, and drawing cultural parallels about, and articulate it so beautifully, makes me feel less alone. We out here 👁️

@IvorMektin1701

2 ай бұрын

Except he is completely wrong

@walterroux291

2 ай бұрын

​@@IvorMektin1701 Feel free to elaborate and enlighten us.

@aceclumsybaby4140

2 ай бұрын

@@walterroux291they said the same about Star Wars, look at it now 😌 (or at least used to be 🫣)

@aricanto1764

2 ай бұрын

Hell yeah botnet, hell yeah

@IvorMektin1701

2 ай бұрын

@@walterroux291 Vietnam was completely off anyone's radar after 1973. Nixon had pulled out the troops, the Arabs and Israelis were at war, gas shortages, then Watergate started. News was a thirty minute a day affair and there was no room for a discussion about Vietnam.

WE GETTING OUT OF THE DARK SIDE WITH THIS ONE 🗣🔥🔥

@Nghilifa

2 ай бұрын

I find your lack of faith disturbing.

@raidone7413

Ай бұрын

I think you mean mos eisley or 1313. The ghetto parts of Star wars

As much as I love very optimistic sci-fi stories, i feel like the new Dune adaptation couldn’t have come at a better time for me. I didn’t see Part One in theaters, but I watched it before seeing Part Two in IMAX. I even watched the 1984 version before Part One, watched a good few videos on Dune, and even went out of my way to buy all six of the original books. I think we all need a near-hopeless story to bring us down to earth before we’re ready for a more optimistic one again. It helps keep balance in a weird way. And I’m not really a political person, but I do recognize the political messages that science fiction can address, and a warning about charismatic leaders and malicious use of religion is what we all need right now. Denis Villeneuve’s adaptation of Dune, in both parts, has the original message of the book not only on full display, but demonstrates it to great effect. After years of being a Star Wars fan, Dune feels like a breath of fresh spice-filled air.

@christorres348

2 ай бұрын

To me the hope of Dune is the reselience of the Fremen. No hi tech just vibes. Connected to nature, good sense of humor. Society might fall, we might live in the desert, but man will always find reasons and ways to live and survive as a group.

@Numbskill

Ай бұрын

@@christorres348 I think that alone spoke to me when I watched Part Two in theaters.

@benjamindavis2475

Ай бұрын

Political parallels can help some people work through things. I think in the present moment you could say Paul Atreides is trump. At first you love him and want to fight for him until you realise he's a manipulator leading you to your death

I grew up with Star Wars and loved its spiritual side and mysticism. That was gradually lost in the movies that followed until it became a hollow commercial product. I'm glad Dune is a great example of sci-fi and the journey of the hero nowadays.

@yolandagaines1760

2 ай бұрын

Paul is not a Hero.

@katan1412

2 ай бұрын

Your statement can be misinterpreted because dune has no hero and thats the point

@videogamesworld01

2 ай бұрын

Bet you will hate dune messiah

@toiletsponge

2 ай бұрын

​@@yolandagaines1760 I like how they made it ABUNDANTLY clear in the movie this time around to avoid a Dune Messiah backlash situation but people still misinterpret it. Media literacy is so dead

“If the individual, overwhelmed by the sense of his own puniness and impotence, should feel that his life has lost its meaning…then he is already on the road to State slavery and, without knowing or wanting it, has become its proselyte.” (Carl Jung, The Undiscovered Self)

As a political scientist i say this makes a lot of sense. It reminds me that Montesquieu identified fear as the spirit of despotism, and yet Hobbes argues that the foundation of state and society itself is fear. Liberal democracy is idealized on this foundation, even though its origins are in reality much more inspired by ancient ideals. The dissociation between progressist liberal ideas Herbert is pessimistic about and a true democracy he is optimistic about is also very insightful. Liberalism, modernism and progressivism are not inherently causative to the democratic practice, they are instead inspired by it and exist as disputed idelas in it. But democracy is fundamentally about the bravery of taking direct creative action and about abandoning the fear of the unknown, which seems to justify authoritarianism. Powerful stuff. Yet it demands of us to leave behind all the preety moralizing myths that lead us to believe that moral and material progress is providential.

@Spectrometer

2 ай бұрын

What makes you think that moral and material progress is not providential?

@ericlk47

2 ай бұрын

@@Spectrometer It can only be conceived of as providential by religious thought. In actuality, nothing outside metaphysics authorizes the affirmation that any kind of progress in human affairs exists as a law of History. Of course, progress must be towards *something*, and this thing is far from being obvious or consensual, but I digress. One way of expressing the realist view is: "there is no progress, save for technological progress", and as we all know, technology requires ample resources, specific social structures, laws and culture to be mantained and developed. It is based on knowlege, and thus can, and has, been lost when the chain of comunicated knowlege is broken. We can talk about social and religious developments in the moral and ethical realms as knowlege and techniques of collective morality, thus what was said about technology applies to moral systems. However, we must remember that, outside the belief in absolute moral standards, whatever constitutes the end of moral systems of any kind is the result of human judgement. In other words, even if we decide that (for example) the Christian definition of goodness sets the compass, it will only be so because we have decided it is thus. That's, after all, why moral religions' followers are proud of themselves: they feel that they exercise a choice to believe in "goodness". Several societies had and have advanced moral systems which are fundamentally distinct. This does not mean that there is for certain absolutely nothing humans have in common about how we see morality. It also does not devalue the discipline of Ethics. It's simply a matter of recognizing there is no such thing as "natural" or "self evident" moral values. Moral judgement is (as far as we know) the distinct faculty of humans, and, in a humanistic note, precisely what allows human beings to be, in some measure, indetermined. This is one reason why humans can be seen as "political animals", and not just "social animals" or "talking animals". Sorry for the long answer. Complex topic.

@Prometheus7272

Ай бұрын

@@ericlk47Progress was the religion of the 20th century. It is already dead people just don’t realize it yet. This will become clear in the coming decades.

@barrymaher3922

Ай бұрын

Thank you for taking the time to articulate this.

@TheRealSteveMay

29 күн бұрын

Truth is morality, the pursuit of it is virtue, adherence to it is justice. Rejection of truth is vice, and it is fundamentally degenerate by nature.

Ah, my two favorite things, Space Wizards and Drug Worms. This is gonna be epic

man, I just wanna say I really love being alive. Videos like this really highlight the beautiful ways in which our world unfolds unto us. These ways seems mundane to us at first, like the mass media we consume, but things like this just happen to be close to the core of the way we experience sentience in the modern world. Thank you for highlighting the beautiful and novel modes of experience being created as the world that we have been born into reveals itself to us

@christorres348

2 ай бұрын

Love how humanity’s stories find the right moment to find a captive audience. Dune was made for now

As a former "star wars fan" migrating to dune was the best decision ive ever made. Star wars always felt like it was pitched as being smarted than it is and the discourse around the disney trilogy wasnt worth sticking around. It really got to a point where you werent allowed to have fun or enjoy anything, and diving into the Dune community felt so refreshing for the fact that everyone agrees what it's about, we all enjoy it, and we all have fun with it. Im glad i didnt stay with star wars, have you seen what theyre making over there? Lol they got like 5 chatacter and recycle the same stories over and over. Idk how star wars fans can so aggressively push away a new story that it scared an entire billion sollar company to never make anything new again.

@delta2372

2 ай бұрын

Star wars wasn't always like this, the old expanded universe (before a cringe ass feminist ally in a cowboy hat in 2008 took an axe to it to make a crappy show about his underage alien waifu) had allot of story's that wasn't about just the 5 characters you mentioned, it ranged from 50,000 years before the movies and going as nearly 200 years after, that said though as much as I loved it you aren't wrong about it going back to the same story. It's part of the reason why I can't fully enjoy Warhammer 40k, you have all these interesting factions and ideas but yet the universe is only about space marines and primarchs and everything else is a punching bag for them and that gets really old really fast. It's a shame as both star wars and 40k could have been great series but at the end of the day, one is a movie series about space wizards intended for children and the other is a table top war game about buying expensive plastic miniatures. Dune being a book first and foremost allows him to be able to fully explore and elaborate the universe more unlike those two.

@colinbielat8558

2 ай бұрын

​@delta2372 What 40k books have you've read, because if you have only been reading say the horus heresy it will only really cover the Imperium. Also I think you misunderstand the 40k setting, the Imperium is the protagonist of of 40k, they are the faction we are expected to "sympathize with" due to being a human faction. There are books though about nearly every faction, minus the tyranids since it's kinda hard to write a book about a hive mind and the leagues of votaan due to how new they are, I have read a lot of 40k books and can probably give you some good recommendations for stories if you would like.

@savage7882

2 ай бұрын

What the hell are you on about lmao, Star Wars fans are pushing against that exact recycled plotline. I cant fathom how you sound like you're a fan of the sequels while at the same time lambasting them.

@savage7882

2 ай бұрын

​​@@delta2372You're very pessimistic. 40k is more than that and certainly Star Wars is as well. The way you describe these series is like you never got into them, but heard about them from a random discussion

@delta2372

2 ай бұрын

@@savage7882 is it though with 40k? because majority of all the lore is always from the perspective of the space marines and as of recently, the primarch guilliman, every xeno book is always from the marines perspective and they effortlessly kill their opponents unless they are fighting a named xeno character in which case the named character is made out to be an idiot when we are told they aren't supposed to. 40k is just about dudes on power armor with bolters shooting it, yes it's fun but it's not very engaging after awhile because that's all it is, there is the inquisition books sure but again that's still it only focusing on humanity. As for star wars, Lucas himself has gone on record and said star wars is for children, for Christ sake this is the first franchise that marketed toys heavily twords children, and it basically is just completely about the space wizards, everything else is either secondary or just a throw away character or scene, the EU as much as I loved it was the same way.

Movie Attack of the Clones deals with these themes of loosing your way. The jedi say in the beginning of the movie that they are the keepers of the peace, not soldiers. Then we see them becoming officers in the Clone Army by the end of the movie. In Phantom Menace it is mentioned that Republic has anti-slavery laws, when Anakins mother says there are not such laws in Tatooine outside of the Republic. In Clones we see the Republic making a slave army out of brainwashed clones who could also be seen as child soldiers, depending on how that accelerated growth actually works. In contrast, in the Original Trilogy The Rebels are wiling to fight and die and risk their own life for freedom.

@AgeOfRamp

2 ай бұрын

The prequels presented slot of these ideas but none of them were executed well snd most regulated to expository dialogue that was not incorporated into the plot well. ie the Jedi are keepers of the peace but instead of having palpatine appoint them generals they do it themselves and launch a war to save Obi, Anakin and Padme from execution despite the separatist having the legal right to secede from the republic and execute spies and

I also find it very interesting that Earth technically is not connected to the Star Wars universe, while the Dune universe is. In this aspect, it seems an inversion of the role of Earth and Humanity in the Universe.

@pilouuuu

2 ай бұрын

Star Wars is in a galaxy far, far away. Earth is somewhere there.

@katan1412

2 ай бұрын

i always saw it as a excuse to make shit up. the force, light sabers, its way more fantasy than scienece fiction and thats the major differnce between Dune and SW. Dune is more believable. we fight with swords because shields protect us from projectiles, we use the voice and perfect control over our body and brain because we had to evolve ourself for thousands of years as a society because we had to abandone thinking machines. there is no magic but the idea of greater humanity evolving and honing their skills. Everything is closer to home in dune and its less of a fairytale. i can see that a voice of authority can make demands to a weak mind today. not on the scale of dune yet but certainly so with politicians, scammers and alot of people who understand how you as a person work and taking advantage of it.

@mirceazaharia2094

2 ай бұрын

Coruscant is seen as the probable homeworld of humanity in Star Wars, as far as I know. These are not our humans, but other sorts. Perhaps kidnapped from Earth by the powerful super-aliens which mucked about in the Star Wars galaxy, and transplanted there.

@sea.imagineering

2 ай бұрын

@@katan1412definitely! There are even trainings to use your power voice rn. I even used it once with succes, probably he had a weak mind. 😅 But seriously, it is pretty realistic.

Babe wake up, new Formscapes just dropped 🌙🌟☀️

@atkkeqnfr

2 ай бұрын

He really does have one of the very very best KZread channels out there. He can even hold his own intellectually with Rupert Sheldrake.

Man, how would a Denis Villeneuve adaptation of the main 6 movies from Star Wars feel like?

@SilverSkitty

Ай бұрын

While I love his work I’m not sure it’s suited to Star Wars. His style seems to work well with dark, contemplative sci-fi stories (Arrival, Blade Runner, Dune) and I feel like that would take away from the optimism of the Star Wars stories

Love this analysis. Thanks for sharing this. I couldn’t agree more about the Disney SW trilogy, but ironically, I think they are interesting to take seriously at a symbolic level, almost because of how intentionally malicious they feel. On an archetypal level, everything about them seems to be an attempt to invert or cancel out the themes that made the original Star Wars films resonant. All the old heroes are humiliated, any resolution from Return of the Jedi is swept under the rug, and at the end of the story, the hero that wins out is a Palpatine (pretty evil if you ask me). Your assessment that the Disney trilogy is the death of Star Wars is completely right. But I think a deeper reading reveals that it’s more like an intentional murder/ritual sacrifice of Star Wars in the classic sense.

@Formscapes

2 ай бұрын

Seeing it as a ritual sacrifice is absolutely spot-on

@davelouie131

Ай бұрын

If Dennis had of done the last Jedi , he too would of got major backlash from fans, Dennis V style would work much better with the knights of the old republic time line rather than the Skywalker saga, Rian Johnson probably would of did better in a more futuristic time line.

I love your videos but sadly I can't listen to you anymore (hearing damage prevents it) I wish your videos had subtitles. ❤

@Formscapes

2 ай бұрын

I'm in the process of posting all of the scripts to the formscapes website. There is only a handful there atm but check back in periodically and I'll have them all posted soon enough.

@mistwitch8795

2 ай бұрын

@@Formscapes thank you!

@gilsimhon9251

2 ай бұрын

​@Formscapes matbe some volunteers from the community can help? also with translation to other languages, your content is valuable and deserves subtitles for hearing impaired and other languages readers

@annreeray2598

2 ай бұрын

Just hit the CC button and subtitles appear

@Squashmalio

2 ай бұрын

@@Formscapes nice I've been waiting for this for a while. Some of your videos are too dense for me to follow while listening, I feel like your content fits a written format really well

Glad to see you're on this topic. Reading the Dune saga in my teens and early 20's was one of the most profoundly influential experiences on my psychological development. Seeing the love that's been poured into these new film adaptations has been a delightful surprise the past few years, considering what Hollywood has become. My fear is that it will gain so much mainstream popularity that Hollywood will water it down and bastardize the work Herbert put into it. I'm awaiting the eventual release of this "Dune: Prophecy" miniseries that is supposed to be a prequel to the books/films based loosely on the lore Herbert left behind before his death. Potential for it to be either fantastic, or get the woke treatment. Star Wars, however, will also have its own special place in my heart.

Part of me feels stupid for ignoring Dune for so long but it is the perfect transitory sci-fi series to fall in love with following what I call the hollowing of Star Wars (And from what I hear Trek as well...never was a Trekker).

@Miafunfactory

2 ай бұрын

Trek is still awesome. Dune is the best ever.

Even with Anakin Skywalker it was his fear of losing Padme that drove him to the dark side. So in a way fear is what drove him. Though palpatine was indeed just out for unlimited power.

Makes me think of something I wrote; This fear is also something projected outwards onto nature, onto the unconscious, and onto that what is other, and thus alien or demonic in nature. However this at the same time cuts us off from the instinctual foundations of existence. In that sense really, it is not a fear of death or the unknown that we have, but a fear of life. As this is the reality of life itself. Like Kronos within the Kingdom of Kronos, we cannot control everything in the world and think we can get away with it. Something sooner or later will undo the rigid order that one has created. Hence why societies collapse. It is when dogma and hubris in our actions cloud us. We go in with a sense of righteousness, thinking we know what we are doing by messing, or interfering with very complex systems, much older then we ourselves are. Yet as Alan Watts would say, by straightening out a wiggly world, we make a whole mess of it.

@camelliaharpdarkthrope6462

2 ай бұрын

This was wonderful to read. Is there a place where you talk more about this?

@themomentpodcast

2 ай бұрын

@@camelliaharpdarkthrope6462 Actually yes. I talk about such things in my podcast and exploration videos, next to the book where this excerpt is from. The book you can find via the channel.

@camelliaharpdarkthrope6462

2 ай бұрын

@@themomentpodcast Thank you!

Something that makes me a bit cautious about getting on the train of "Dune has beaten Star Wars" is the oddly reminiscent feeling that this line has to a very similar talking point from a few years ago, namely the idea that "Game of Thrones is better than LotR". That thesis didn't age at all well as we all saw in the GoT series finale and in the reluctance of its author to even finish writing the books. Even though many (GRRM included) repeated the argument that GoT was "more complex" and "greyer" and therefore more realistic and appropriate for our times, Tolkien's legendarium ended up coming out on top of the whole affair simply because its opponent was too arrogant to avoid its collapse. Still, I know Dune is not exactly the same in that regard as GoT nor is Star Wars the best analogue there could be in the Sci-Fi genre to LotR. That said, the fact I'm seeing many of the same premises and attitudes appear at least on the level of discourse (and by that, I don't mean this video in particular but rather discussions on this topic more generally) makes me somewhat careful not to jump on the bandwagon. Another curious thing is the weight that film and TV adaptations have in both of these "battles". The fact the latest Star Wars installments haven't been as good as the original trilogy is part of the predicament that allows this more recent Dune adaptations to come out as more of a victor. The same thing happened more or less with LotR and GoT. Despite the wide-acclaimed excellence of the Jackson trilogy for LotR, the newer Hobbit movies left such a bitter taste in many mouths that it seemed GoT was going to topple the traditional king of the hill. And yet, against all expectations, the opposite resulted to be the case even coming to the point that some of the harshest critics of The Hobbit films were now more tolerant of it after having seen the trainwreck that had been the HBO series in its last seasons. Again, this is not meant as an objection to this video's argument but simply as an observation of how much these adaptations can shape our perception of which of these sagas is the best one and also, and perhaps more importantly, of how variable these adaptations' qualities are as time goes on.

@Formscapes

2 ай бұрын

I'm alot more optimistic about the future of Dune than that of ASOIAF for a few reasons, even though admittedly there is always going to be room for someone to step in and ruin the whole Dune franchise with something cheap and pointless. The difference, I believe, is this; George R.R. Martin never really had a coherent narrative vision to begin with. He was basically just making shit up as he went, using his - admittedly very well refined - narrative crafting tools in such a way as to create a very compelling world with ***the illusion*** of an overarching thematic cohesion that was never actually there. Dune could - in principle - be stretched out over the course of a dozen more films while still maintaining its own thematic cohesion because Herbert built the entire saga around a very well conceptualized narrative "Urphanomen" (to borrow a term from Goethe). The saga didn't even need to have a definitive ending to tie everything in a bow. ISOIAF doesn't have that luxury because after a certain point, people start asking "Ok but like seriously... what is the actual point of all this???" and George really just doesn't have an answer to that, and the directors of the GOT television show sure as hell didn't either. Now everyone is looking back at the franchise thinking "Wait... why did we think that was so great to begin with?", and the reason is because at the time, we had yet to realize that Martin's exquisitely crafted illusion of narrative purpose was in fact an illusion. He wrote those stories ***as though*** there was an overall meta-narrative when in reality it was - as he himself admits - basically a bunch of random stuff that we was making up and weaving together as he went along. That writing method isn't in itself a problem, but it becomes a problem when you are actually trying to figure out what to do with a plot that really never was a "plot" to begin with. In any case, the point here is not that the Dune cinematic franchise will continue to be great indefinitely - it most certainly wont, barring an actual miracle. But the point is rather that the underlying cultural mythos which conditioned the possibility of the Star Wars cultural phenomenon has shifted so as to make Star Wars more or less irrelevant culturally, and to open the possibility of Dune as a pop-cultural phenomenon (as opposed to being relegated to a tiny minority of scifi superfans as had previously been the case.)

@vs6584

2 ай бұрын

@@Formscapes I understand where you're coming from but the fact that GoT is having a far stronger comeback with House of the Dragon than anything Star Wars has in the pipeline right now proves that even the GoT finale wasn't enough to annihilate people's fascination with the saga, even though HotD is also a prequel with a foregone conclusion. While I agree that GRRM doesn't have the clarity of a Herbert when it comes to narrative purpose, it's telling that Denis Villeneuve wants to end his Dune series with Messiah and the conclusion of Paul's arc with no interest in delving into Children and beyond. On the surface, Paul and Daenerys have very similar arcs with very different drives and endings. Paul actively wants to escape the restrictions placed by his deified status and manages to do so at least in a small way, while Dany always pursues deification, only to meet her end for performing her ultimate Act of God as a woman in a Man's World. Anyways, I think GoT may survive and thrive simply because we as a collective culture still find dragons to be way cooler than sandworms :p On a more serious note, GoT may be more appealing to women than Dune and LotR as some stories like HotD put the relationship between gender and power front and center.

@Mayakran

2 ай бұрын

I agree. I think the biggest reason Star Wars isn’t as popular ISN’T due to the fact that its message is outdated but because the recent stuff coming out is just bad, lol.

@Ian-MT

2 ай бұрын

@@MayakranI was skeptical of the premise as well, but I think that his premise is that the issue is the new Star Wars being bad is inevitable because the simplified, naive and sanitized neoliberal foundation of it makes it prone to corporatization in this era when everything of this nature will be swallowed by the machine. Beyond this, I note this essay has one of the best, concise analyses of the thematic core of the Dune saga I’ve seen. Although: Andor is a point of evidence against his premise that Star Wars’ framework is incapable of narratively meeting the moment and “growing up”

@johnsmith8055

2 ай бұрын

Dune is OG thou. Star Wars is just an empty shadow of it, always has been.

Sheldrake interview to this video is a legendary switch up

We have Jung to thank once again for inspiring the worldbuilding of many influential narratives of our time. Dune is amazing and so is this video.

@cicerogsuphoesdown7723

2 ай бұрын

Jung ripped most of his concepts from Hinduism. Frank Herbert ripped most of his world building from Islam and the Bedouins.

@gianluigitorresi224

2 ай бұрын

Most from the colonialism age . Empire is church. Freemen are people of North Africa

Frank Herbert would have been very pleased to see how Dune has now captured the public imagination, knocking the pretender Star Wars from it's perch.

@savage7882

2 ай бұрын

Pretender? Star Wars became much bigger than dune. It moved past its inspiration.

@ArmandoSanchezOG

2 ай бұрын

@@savage7882at what cost? Star Wars has seen better days. It’s not even held in high regard anymore due to the complete drop in quality

@ninjartist36

2 ай бұрын

Rebel moon is what one would call a pretender not Star wars

@j.i.nthenobody54

Ай бұрын

Dune fans trying not to shit on other sci-fi media:

@SilverSkitty

Ай бұрын

I think Dune and Star Wars are both equally valid works. Dune might be more intellectually complex but there’s value to the comfort and escapism of Star Wars

Your channel is a consistent goldmine. I reflect on what’s going on in my brain, reading, and the world and BAM here’s an algorithmically sent formscapes video. Blessings G

If fear is the mind killer, and the universe is, in some part, mental, then fear is ultimately the God killer. Did Nietzsche write about fear? I read one of his books 10 years ago and was only able to get anything from it because of online explanations... it would seem to fit

@JHimminy

2 ай бұрын

Try Nietzsche again. Just don’t try Zarathustra. Try The Frolicking Wisdom (“the Gay Science”), or Beyond Good and Evil. He’s pretty straightforward, it’s just you’ve got to get used to his aphoristic style. Anyone who recommends Zarathustra to you is just trying to sound smart.

@fusion9619

2 ай бұрын

@@JHimminy well... That's what happened then. Someone recommended Zarathustra, so I got it, and regretted it. I like the ideas, but I wouldn't have known what the ideas were without the internet

Andor and Rogue one have some very good archetypes that deviate from the crappy stuff produced today. I grew up with star wars and you hit keys points of relevance. Good job!

"There is another" did not go unappreciated

The Darth Plagueis novel is good for showing how Palpatine rose to power. Plagueis helped him achieve the rank of chancellor.

@adamplentl5588

2 ай бұрын

This is a mischaracterization. Palpatine used Plageuis to achieve his own goals. He played Plageuis.

@Mayakran

2 ай бұрын

Yeah the EU is another matter (barely related side note: DAMN I wish they’d just left Thrawn in the books…)

@shortbusbully

2 ай бұрын

​@Mayakran for real. Zahn's Thrawn was a calculating, menacing character who rose to the highest ranks of the empire in secret due to his alien heritage. He was an extraordinary villain. Now he's just a cartoon character.

Epic I have also noticed this in the contrast between the lord of the rings, and the story of its sequel tolkien began intuitivizing. He didnt want to finish it because he didnt want to explore it's nihilistic implications from what I was told. I believe he was intuitivizing a story more appropriate for our specific moment in time, but he refrained because it became unoleasant for him.

@jayanti2371

2 ай бұрын

yes, i also heard/read the same thing somewhere: that tolkien realized he couldn't continue the story of middle earth after "return of the king", because that world would not be a pleasant one.

@cecilyerker

2 ай бұрын

The appendix, The Scouring of the Shire, is what that would have been. Heroes return triumphant to find enemy forces in their home and are now forced to drive them off.

@jayanti2371

2 ай бұрын

@@cecilyerker After the scouring, when there is no longer an external enemy... then what? Whatever id read (I wish I could remember where) suggested that Tolkien knew that humans, if given total freedom and peace, would become terrible, and could only create a world of problems for themselves. His grim view of humans is stated outright in LOR -- of all the races, humans are the easiest to control with the ring because of their greed and lust for power.

Star Wars surpassed Dune back in the 70’s and like Convergence, here Dune is now surpassing Star Wars. Balance! I never wanted this debate to resurface. Star Wars & Dune fandoms are at it again, I enjoy both but the reason I will always love Star Wars over Dune is because Star Wars is a Timeless Tale of the human condition, Dune is a Nihilistic Prophecy of humanity’s end. The irony of Dune fans claiming Star Wars was ripped off from it (despite the similarities just being inspirations from George Lucas being a Dune fan himself) is that Star Wars Philosophy wise is all about Existentialism, what you do matters which is why you should choose Selflessness Over Selfishness. That’s George’s message. Dune is a nihilistic warning from Frank Herbert that warns us if we put our trust as a species in corrupt religious institutions & corrupt yet charming political leaders we will doom our species to its destruction. The downside is that Dune shows that these religious & political flaws based on human culture is inherent to us so it’s inevitable that our species meets it’s end because of these flaws in our nature. Star Wars gives us the option , Dune is just a dark prophecy.

@leos4243

2 ай бұрын

I think it was meant as less a prophecy and more a warning, and in that sense it succeeded more than Star Wars in influencing those that consume it in thinking about the implications of empire and ultimately one’s complicity in it, whereas Star Wars seems more preoccupied with resistance to various “evil empires” Dune sort of asks why such a system would come into place at all, and really examining why people support regimes like the Atreides, Harkonens, or Leto’s empire, there’s very few moments in Star Wars where people actually take a step back and ask why the republic failed or the empire rose, beyond evil space wizards conspire to end democracy because they are evil, but the actual implications of the dominance of such evil empires is never really examined in universe beyond providing some context for why figures like bane or palpatine are the way they are, but the centrality of the importance of how they take power and what that means about the people that follow them is left seemingly deliberately vague at best, for sake of clear moral lines, and at worst is totally ignored in the interest of a more entertaining and more morally palatable story

@henriuschunkius1800

2 ай бұрын

I personally think the reasons for why the system in Star Wars came into being was displayed pretty clearly through the Prequel Trilogy. The entire basis of that trilogy was to display how the people of the Galaxy lost faith in the democratic systems of a corrupt democracy, and how they inevitably voted for a dictatorship to solve those problems. I'm not sure if I missed something whilst reading Dune, but I never came across a moment where it was reflected upon why people supported the Harkonens beyond simply wanting power they could offer them. And if I properly recall, nobody truly supports Leto's Empire, they only obey him out of worship or fear. In Star Wars, while the Empire is just evil without question, there are people who genuinely believe it as a force for good simply because of how corrupt and ineffective the Republic was in comparison, which itself reflects how people in the past allowed dictatorships to rise out of ineffective democracies. Palpatine's rise to power was through scheming and manipulation, from artificially manipulating the galactic trade networks to purging the leadership of the Trade Federation, it all seems very well layed out if someone were to look it up on the fandom.@@leos4243

@bendu8282

2 ай бұрын

@@leos4243 interesting.

@bendu8282

2 ай бұрын

@@leos4243 if you want the context your seeking when it comes to those questions in star wars I can give them to you via quotes /evidence when it comes to deep Star Wars lore.

@leos4243

2 ай бұрын

@@bendu8282 I’m down, please send away, I was kind of burned on Star Wars after the sequels, not for any of that Chud shit, but more because by the end of the sequel trilogy it feels that very little has actually changed, and that after the death of palpatine, again, it seems like it’s just the the dark times again, for like the 3rd time but with no empire, and a ludicrously underpowered and under legitimized republic just sort of meandering about, I think what made me angry is that the whole sequel trilogy sort of ends exactly where it started, the empire is defeated, everything is uncertain, and a new republic is charged with stabilizing everything, but there’s no indication it will go better than the last time around, which for a series that’s ostensibly supposed to be optimistic, is pretty cynical

Watching Dune Part 2 I couldn’t help but think of Return of the King. Particularly, Paul’s similarity to Aragorn, struggling to accept his destiny, taking courage to be truly courageous and selfless, and therefrom, exalted as a king, struck me hardest. Even the similarity between Sauron and the Harkonnen is interesting, if their theme is understood as a degradation of the human or of createdness. As for the overarching meta-narrative of either property, it is obvious that they diverge. After all, the eagles from Arda come to rescue our hero’s from mount doom whereas the Hand of God does not free Paul from culpability in the holy war. But even in LotR there is some uneasy fate that lies Frodo and the elves heading west, as too with the humans left behind. All of this is to say, I love the analysis. It is wonderful, I would love to see more.

@KnjazNazrath

2 ай бұрын

Read Messiah and you may revise that opinion...

@veronikamajerova4564

2 ай бұрын

Paul and selfless? He basicaly used Fremen for his own goals (to avenge his father by destroying Harkonnens and the Emperor and get himself on the throne), even tough he knew very well that it will result in Jihad and bilions of deaths. I mean, he even says to Mohiam in the end "You will remember how nice Sardaukars were". And he didn´t do it for the Fremen, they vere basicaly just a tool for him. And it isn´t like he didn´t have any other options - after Leto was killed and he and Jessica escaped Harkonnens, they could go to the smugglers to get off the planet and live quiet life somewhere else, which would avoid the Jihad. But nope, revenge was more important. I mean, there is even quote from Kynes´s father "The worst thing to happen to your people would be falling into the hands of hero": And that´s exactly what happens.

@arismafiamafiaiskandar5145

2 ай бұрын

If you haven't the second book,Dune Messiah, Ouhhh boy your gonna be surprised.

@TheMarkmcr

2 ай бұрын

Accidental. Tolkien didn't have the most favorable opinion of it

@MrGageHarrison

22 күн бұрын

lol you should probably read the books

As a guy who loved the first movie and then bought a box with the Six books (altought i could not end the fifith one, feels too feeler to me), i loved your review and is actually very rare to find someone who understands that the Herbet's message about distrust in Charismatic figures is not just a end in itself, but an warning agaist our fear of the unknow and the dificults that might arise of it, traping ourselfs into a sea of tyrani that brings up fragility and degeneracy. As an Biologist, i also tought fascinating the way Herbet presentes the human evolution in an ecological dialetic btween man and ambient (also, the ancestral memories powers today remember me of Morphic Resonance thanks to your channel hahaha) and how dificults bring life to criativity and a stronger spirit. But, seeing the second movie and in retrospect analysing the first, i doubt these messages are being really get. Channi's misscaracterization as a mean to easily preach an "elighted" and "secular" mentalite against Paul's messianism feels very weird and dumb to me. Also, they dumbed so much the ecological/economical implications of spice and the politics of the Empire that the world became very bland, as opposed to the vivid and complex world of the books. I think the message isen't being properly get, as in the political discourse neo-conservatives and progressives are talking shit of each other about this movie and so on... I hope that the movies do at least the effect that did to me and bring more people to this very good and reflexive saga as well.

@JCDenton3

2 ай бұрын

Yeah, people are totally missing the message and thought experiments the books have and are boiling it down to the most basic interpretation possible after watching the film. It is interesting that people are just stuck in binary thinking, and just paint their very simplistic and simple modernist political understanding and biases on something that isn't about anything the American political left or right can offer. People also don't understand feudalism or medievalism at all, and just assume everything in this film is about critiquing or defending capitalism and fascism which just makes me facepalm so hard I'm going to eventually suffer a concussion.

Formscapes and dune, dream come true

This will be a fun to listen to at work tomorrow. My take before watching it is that people got burned out on too much SW but still like space stuff so the more dune scratches that itch. Also Lucas's SW had more spiritual theme that the new stuff lacks. And dune too have spiritual stuff in it. And in a "it's so over' age we are in. Having some good media with spiritual themes to bit into (even if subconscious) it gives a "we're so back" kind of energy that people are looking for

@agnosticpreacher6911

2 ай бұрын

"too much starwars but ppl still like space stuff so dune scratches that itch"- no offense but do you have any idea how pathetic that attempt at an explanation sounds? Im not tryna put you down to feel better but jesus christ man, maybe just leave the thinking to formscapes

@shortbusbully

2 ай бұрын

I wouldn't say Dune has any real spiritual themes other than "Be careful. Spirituality can be easily manipulated."

Always with the on time midnight vibes 🌙

@Formscapes

2 ай бұрын

This video was supposed to be uploaded the previous morning but I had to edit it ELEVEN TIMES bc of Warner Bros copyright bullshit 🙃

Holy mackerel this is the most intelligently constructed video essay that I think I’ve ever seen which analyzes a work of fiction.

This analysis is incredible, profound and genius. Just commenting here before this reaches millions of views, as it deserves.

The Disney is like a Bene Tleilax breeding vat that spawns malformed gholas of original trilogy. Trying to recall former lifetime's memories but failing.

@cymikgaming1266

Ай бұрын

they have been making the same ducan idaho for 20 years

I've listened to approximately 60 seconds of your opening statement and decided to subscribe, the quality of this video and your channel is already clear

I am afraid of many things. I am not afraid of being afraid. I am afraid of being in denial of being afraid. Maybe I ought to put up a totem to this dark god to remind me not to forget. I do not believe that fear is the mind killer. Denial is the mind killer. Refusal to face the world is the great cowardice. Once more into the breach brothers.

@alexzapf8212

2 ай бұрын

Parallel to the idea of that it's not power that corrupts, it's weakness that corrupts.

@thatguy5148

2 ай бұрын

Denial of reality is rooted in fear.

@mukktb1198

2 ай бұрын

Is it my ego standing between me and reality? Do the fires of rage hold me in enchantment? Am I too insecure to be confident? Am I caught in the illusion? Or was I never stuck to begin with?

@TheRealSteveMay

29 күн бұрын

​@@thatguy5148not always, some people deny reality because they derive gratification from it.

"Leto saw that he was required by this destiny to instill within humanity a primal, genetic aversion to authoritarian power. An ancestral memory of a trauma so great that it could not be forgotten. Once this collective trauma was instilled through Leto's enactment of the famine times, Leto himself would come to be assassinated and his great interstellar empire would then collapse, leading to the scattering." Sounds like something a Sabbatean Frankist would envision, redemption through sin, order through chaos. Absolutely disgusting.

I know this isn't even remotely relevent or fair, but that thumbnail of "Star Wars vs Dune" for some reason registered in my brain as "Logan Paul vs Kazuma Kiryu"

The conquering fear message was clear watching the Lynch movie on psilocybin.

What an analysis, I am sincerely impressed about this video! I hope to see more about this

An excellent essay. There are quite a few elements of your thesis on which I would take a different position. But it is well supported and beautifully argued, written and presented. Subbed

The sequels are accidentally perfect for our times. But instead of making a film about society crumbling and the government and media hiding the rot, the films themselves are the rot. They are devoid of purpose, direction, ideals, and intelligence, but they are covered in the beautiful imagery of the past and they try to present themselves, incorrectly, as legitimate heirs.

@Mandalorian92

2 ай бұрын

Good take

@davelouie131

Ай бұрын

The Force Awakens was about Finn and Rey Force Awakening, The Last Jedi was about Luke and Rey, and The Rise of Skywalker is about Rey and Ben. the message of The Last Jedi was about you don’t have come from somebody special to be special this applies to Finn, Broom boy, the 2nd message was Failure is the greatest teacher of them all, Luke Failure with Ben doesn’t define him, the Jedi past Failures doesn’t mean the Jedi can’t be rebuilt for a better future, you learn from the past to build a better future. 3rd message is That’s how we’re gonna win not by fighting what we hate but by saving what we love. 4th message is we are what we pass on and No One ever really is gone, in the end the only path to immortality is the legacy you leave behind. A legacy that influences the next generation that comes after us , when Yoda tells Luke we are what we grow Beyond, that is the true burden of all Masters. Then Luke says he will not be the last Jedi then it shows Rey. When Luke says no never really gone , he’s talking about Kylo REN Light Side Ben Solo, he’s also talking about Han Solo, evident when he gives Leia Hans gold Dice, he’s also talking about himself because he knows he about to use The Last of his strength to defeat Kylo REN but not by Force or Violence but with Wisdom of a true Jedi Master. He acts with principles of spreading a peaceful Resistance instead of malice and anger, when our Goodness prevails than we are truly never really gone. The Message of The Rise of Skywalker is about how anyone can be a Jedi and anyone can be a Sith, Ren believe by his Skywalker blood alone he was destined for greatness, to bring order and stability to the Galaxy but Kylo is a villain. Kylo REN is the first part of the theme that bloodline doesn’t guarantee greatness of character instead your personal choices do. The fact that his uncle is Luke Skywalker doesn’t automatically make Ben the Hero for the Next generation of the Galaxy. Instead Kylo blames everyone for his failures. He tells Rey that she is nothing and have no place in history, Kylo REN killing Snoke has less to do with saving Rey and more to with having more power and control. He tells Rey that Leia wouldn’t accept her as a Palpatine. Through out the films Klylo REN couldn’t kill the love he had for his mother, Leia may be the only person he truly loved. Rey eventually sacrificed her self to save the Galaxy, Ben rejuvenate and Saves Rey and Ben instead perish into the Force and becomes one with the Force. Finn went from nobody to a future Jedi, Finn is the Hero from Nowhere, the Force user that came from nobody. He is the force user not tied to the Skywalker legend, the villain who became a hero. Finn was Stolen from his parents as an infant, raised to be completely loyal to the First Order, Finn Early year was steeped In propaganda and indoctrination. They was put through rigorous training to strip any sympathy or individuality from them. While Ben was raised by his parents and then by Luke at Ten. Finn was sculpted from an infant to be a cold hearted killer, but some how the light couldn’t be snuffed out of Finn with out any outside influences. Finn knew it was wrong to slaughter villagers and knew Star killer wouldn’t bring peace to the Galaxy, Finn triumph by using Bravery and overcoming fear. Rey Palpatine , a Jedi Master. It’s the opposite side Of Kylo REN, being destined of pure Evil doesn't dictate your destiny. Like Finn, Rey grew up in an abusive situation, she was neglected by Unkar Plutt and treated as a scavenger tool instead of a child. Also like Finn, she doesn’t let this break her or become a spiteful person. While Kylo REN grew up with far less circumstances, the Theme is Clear , anyone can be a Jedi , even the Grand Daughter of Darth Sidious. The Force doesn’t care if you were born to farmers or on a poor world. We seen plenty of Jedi fall to the dark side. Rey is at peace with both the light and Dark within herself, Rey allows herself to be angry but not consumed by it. She can forgive but not at a cause of losing herself. She is a whole person who is no longer in search for some one to validate her. She is at peace with her found family, Balance is what she reaches despite her blood line which is purposeful and significant. The Theme is anyone can be force sensitive, that one isn’t guaranteed to be in the light because of their blood, being a Skywalker doesn’t guarantee you’re be a Hero. Being a Palpatine doesn’t mean you’re be Evil. Being a nobody stormtrooper doesn’t mean you can’t be a Jedi. The psychologist Carl Jung said that people have a "persona" - the part of themselves they are proud of and like that they show to the world, all the "good parts" of themselves, and that people also have a "shadow" - the part of themselves they are ashamed of and hate and that they hide from the world, all the "bad parts" of themselves. He said that "avoiding or repressing your shadow" would just lead to problems, and that the "right solution" was that you need to "integrate your shadow" - stop being ashamed of those bad parts of yourself, learn to control them, and learn when and how to use them when you need them. Carl Jung would have been a great Jedi Master.

@Wilphart

Ай бұрын

@@davelouie131 If you got all of that out of those films, that speaks more to your training in the Jungian archetypes than the film's presentation of the hero's journey. If the intended message was "anyone can be a jedi," for example, it was lost because what we saw was "anyone can be a powerful jedi on their first try without any training." If there were deep, inspiring messages in there, they were hidden by the overt pandering, e.g., "Admiral Pink-hair is a female and so she doesn't need to tell her plan to a male she outranks," or "sacrificing yourself to save many others isn't as important as being a girl's first kiss." You know what I mean? But if you find the hero's journey or other worthwhile messages in the films, then that's great. I don't want to take away from your enjoyment of the films just because they left me behind.

@davelouie131

Ай бұрын

Yeah that pretty much what those films 🎥 🎞 presented. I know certain fans wanted more explanation of Luke and Palpatine. Which they pretty much doing in the bad batch because the Sith can't turn to force ghost at so its obvious Palpatine would want immortality and it was what he learned from Darth Plaguies the Wise. Now for Luke they can either do a live action 🎬 TV series of Luke Jedi Academy or a Tales of the like Animated quality series of Luke Jedi Academy . Someone like Denis Villeneuve would do better with the Knights of The Old Republic time line because it suits his style much better and he would have more artistic freedom but with the Skywalker saga it would be Dave Filoni and Jon Favreau.

I grew up in a Star Wars household and will always love Star Wars...at least the George Lucas version of it, including The Clone Wars. Star Wars is one of the main reasons why I took up visual art and original storytelling as a hobby, and is also the reason I got into comparative myth. The intention of retelling an old myth in a new way cannot be be understated. That being said, it's time for Dune to get its due time in the spotlight. I have absolutely fallen in love with the series over the last 3 years and am just kicking myself for not having discovered it sooner. Dune 2021 and Part Two made me fall in love with sci-fi again. I'm watching this now as I've just seen the trailer for Star Wars: The Acolyte and yeah...the age of Star Wars as we know it is over. It's a hollow shell of itself.

I've been thinking about this video since I watched it a couple of days ago. This morning I watched a trailer for the upcoming "Acolyte" Star Wars series and heard this line: "It's not about Good or Evil, it's about Power, and who gets to wield it." Spot on mate, keep up the good work!

Excellent video! I am impressed by how well you were able to weave the story and themes of Star Wars with the events and cultural framework of the 20th century, then contrasting that with the 21st century and the rise of both cynicism and proper understanding of power. Power is not evil, it is a tool like all other tools; it can be used for your own good and your enemies' destruction.

A very Nietzschean ending... a "new kind of human being" to forge their own way into the unknown... Amazing video, very well done! As an anthropologist, I always appreciate when media is put into its cultural context.

The world Lucas built is forever my favorite take on sci fi.. and I’d be lying if I said I didn’t like some of the western takes on the outer rim planets of late. Unfortunately Disney can’t make stories that fit well in the world Lucas made and that’s super depressing. Still love the lore, the new stuff however hasn’t really told a great tale yet

@wheeleee937

2 ай бұрын

I agree. I really recommend looking up the old republic content. Don’t know if you play games but Star Wars the old republic had sooo much to add to the Star Wars universe that I think George Lucas really intended to give us. Just a sick story all around. Dune is cool but I think Star Wars is just so expansive and mysterious and hopeful all at the same time

Agree with much of the author 's opinion, but Andor absolutely moves the needle within the Star Wars universe, and adds a very welcome (and difficult) layer of political and moral complexity to the mythos

@luciuswhite4502

2 ай бұрын

I also think about it the same way. It contrasts with the simplicity of the rest of the universe, however. I think at the moment the direction of the timeline post-sequel trilogy seems aimless.

@Material_Monkey

Ай бұрын

But no one saw it so after andor season 2 that was ut with this kind of show and we will get 10 more seasons of Ashoka or Fan Fic High Republic

I’ll never be convinced that Star Wars wasn’t born/inspired by Dune in some way, shape, or form. There’s so many parallels.

@weirdwest1702

2 ай бұрын

This has been known and acknowledged for a long time. Lucas has even mentioned Dune's influence. Not even Dune itself is wholly original.

This was such a comprehensive analysis of the cultural phenomenon and zeitgeist in relation to Dune and Star Wars in a way that I felt I understood implicitly; I could also logically follow it as well (As stupid as I am) that I am in complete awe. You articulated my grievances with and view of Star Wars, as well as my hope in Dune in such a way that I never knew to be possible and for that I genuinely thank you.

Bravo. My wife didn't really like Dune Part I or Part II. I think she is typical of most movie goers; impressed by the visuals but confused and bored with the central themes and the taxonomy of the world of Dune; however, she does loves Star Wars. This is why I believe that Dune will NOT replace the cultural importance Star Wars used to hold. We are all immature and easily entertained by the seductive idea of good vs evil. We see ourselves as good, moral people. All Dune tells us is that we are the evil or rather, inadequate, and who wants to hear that? Picking up on a few themes mentioned. I think our world today has more to do with Harkonnen culture than with the naiive and idealized Atreides culture. One is degenerate and nihilist and the other is noble and idealistic. Is it any wonder that Paul is actually Harkonnen and NOT Atreides, at least through Lady Jessica. He is both yet as he soberly realizes, to survive "we have to be Harkonnens". I'm sure Lucas' intention was to promote the idea that however irredeemable Anakin Skywalker may have been, the good side of his nature could overcome his darkness. In the case of Paul Atreides, he recognized that he had no choice but to be more ruthless than his own grandfather in order to lead humanity through The Golden Path. It is all a fallacy though and on some level even we know that it's what we tell ourselves, that Machiavellian Utilitarianism is necessary when in truth, most of use are falible and corruptable. Star Wars is a beautiful myth that tells us who we think we are. Dune has been telling us who we truly are and we just don't listen. We're too busy looking at ourselves in the mirror and believing that Quetzalcóatl is the return of the Serpent God when he is in fact a ruthless, greedy pirate. Excellent analysis.

@romanmanner

2 ай бұрын

Find a way to have your wife watch with the subtitles. That’s what did it for mine; she’s legit into it now. It’s a big world to learn about without subtitles.

Interesting topic

Damn. That's dark. Very interesting though. Enjoyed the breakdowns of the films and their relationship to history and impact on popular culture. It makes a lot of sense when you lay it out this way.

when you were a small child star wars had a long run of rereleases followed by prequels. my son was born in 1994. his father was way into star wars, so he grew up with it, but we all did too, back in the 70s and the 80s when we were kids

The last yourtube channel I expected a dune video from, I welcome the surprise :)

Amazing video, seriously!

It's funny how 40 years ago when Star Wars came out, people probably said the same thing but reversed. Star Wars has became a husk of itself today, and Dune just got the best rebranding a piece of media can ever get. When I saw Villeneuve's Dune for the first time, it made me feel the things I felt when I watched Star Wars as a kid 20 years ago. The awe, the wonder, the imagination. Nothing has really evoked that feeling from me since Star Wars. And it's sad what it has become today. A franchised corporate mess. Andor is still amazing tho, but that's about it. Mandalorian was only good in the first couple of seasons.

Dune is epic stunningly made amazing actors can't wait for part 3

Let the future remain unknown. A universe full of surprises is what I pray for. tavi.

We are stepping into a territory where people would demand for a very intercate plot, world building and less character heavy story. Im ok with it.

The Dune prequels are very interesting culminating in a huge war between humanity and the thinking machines, going deeper into transhumanism, feminism with the Honored Matriarchs rivals of the Bene Gesserit order and origins of all the different factions Mentats, Suk doctors, Tleilaxu, etc.

Well said! Might be worth checking out the mmorpg Warframe, which is definitely in dialog with the themes discussed here. Seems like the player character is in the position of Leto II, deciding if they're willing to become the god emperor, or if there are anti-oedipal means of reterritorializing the lovecraftian entity representing the lack of the big other to orient more flexible and dynamic frames of identity and social relationality. A big part of that process is the integration of jungian archetypes like the shadow, personas, ego, higher self, etc. I guess rather than arguing that fear is the mind killer, Warframe is focused on exploring and critiquing Indifference.

@warchildsilver

2 ай бұрын

Glad to find another Warframe fan who sees the parallels. I love how Warframe can just be a fun looter shooter, but for those who want it there's a story with deeply human themes of how love is what makes us truly human, in a solar system hell bent on beating us into indifference.

Yes the dune books speak on the cyclical nature of existence. Opression begats strength which begats freedom which begats prosperity which begats decadence which begats oppression.

I’m going to throw a comment and a like to this video. I’m also going to shoot the link to this video to my friends who still like SW and don’t understand why I love Dune.

I'm beyond glad I ran into this. I'm a (77-83) star wars original. My son is your age. (99-05) prequel. I've been revisiting the Star Wars universe. This analysis has been gestating in my consciousness for a while now with all science fiction. Especially with what is occurring in our present day society. Excellent prose. Brilliant synthesis. Looking forward to hearing more from you.

"There is another" This threw me so hard 😂

Amazing vid man, great analysis

really fascinating video, for several years now have been thinking about the need for the meta evolution of humanity, that it's not evil that is the problem but fear, and that it's not up to some hero but all of us to make the future bright. guess it shouldn't be a surprise got super into dune when finding out about it like a year or two ago. this video also shined a new light on the first 6 star wars movie.

Absolutely fantastic analysis

The sequel trilogy is not much to talk about. But please give a chance to Rogue One and Andor, these, surprisingly, are everything Star Wars needs to be.

@Formscapes

2 ай бұрын

I quite enjoyed rogue one, actually. I just didn't talk about it because it didn't really do much in terms of the overall meta-narrative of Star Wars. The closest thing we have gotten thus far to a genuine attempt at fleshing out the philosophical implications of the series overall is the narrative of the KOTOR games, imo. Haven't seen Andor yet but I've heard it's actually pretty decent.

Had to subscribe. That was a very good analysis.

I am a fan of both Star Wars and Dune. Star Wars draws inspiration from Dune. Both franchises have their successes and mistakes. Just as Star Wars has problems with the Sequels, Brian Herbert and Kevin J Anderson's Expanded Dune novels have been controversial among fans. Like the Expanded Dune, the creators of the Sequels failed to capture the spirit and majesty of the original works. I think we should celebrate the successes of these two franchises while acknowledging their mistakes.

@andrewlim9345

Ай бұрын

Have to acknowledge that Dune is much deeper philosophically than Star Wars that grapples with moral ambiguities better.

Bravo. You hit the nail on the head! It seems to me that the struggle is: the original Nietzschean Übermensch against his twisted doppelganger in fascism.

I have just watched this video for the seventh time I think .. even when I’m not watching it it is present as a kind of vibe in the background bc it impacted me so heavily xd

Star Trek Deep Space Nine, my one only fav Trek wasn't pie in sky perfect future humanity but still lauded the good that humanity still held was a positive universal method to handle the reality of the universe of chaos and flow of energy. We have a choice how we garner and spread energy, from symbiotic or parasitic or final entropic

I agree with the philosophy of this episode, but I can’t imagine a reality where I enjoy Dune on the same level that I enjoy Star Wars.

As an OG star wars fan, Dune has given me the Space Sci fi fix I needed from a modern movie. Disney star wars has fumbled the bag so bad.

Going to have to make a comment about the stormtroopers as a history nerd The stormtroopers predate ww2 and where mostly in ww1 its a special unit based on hit and run tactics while being incredibly aggressive and is pretty much what inspired Blitzkrieg tactic.

Wow, great script and very well spoken

I was not expecting this, goddam did you make some good points, this entire thing was both mind-blowing and breathtaking and mirror some conclusions of my own ive come to recently. I think we might even infer that the root of tyranny is fear and that any tyranny is simply a reflection of the individual complacency to act against it. Society itself is a mental construct, a collective hallucination, that exists so that the ego may absolve itself of responsibility in its direct survival and engage in distraction so that it does not have to fear death. In other words, society is a collective conspiracy to try and escape death and by extension fear, because all fear is rooted in either literal or symbolic death as death is simply change. Because we lack our own courage and heroism, we must have a leader who we have (false) faith, can be that courageous hero in our place. You might even say that we outsource our own courage and heroism to an external body and thus we actually self-subjugate when we engage in systems of power. We choose to have a king, because we do not wish to be our own king. and we choose leaders, because we are afraid to lead ourselves. In a world, were people are led by fear, tyranny is simply waiting to happen, as long as fear and ego remains present in humanity, it is part of the societal cycle. If groups form, in order to bolster survival and benefit humanity... we eventually come into times were life is so easy we forget the need to be strong, or the will to fend for yourself. It is only a matter of time before we have been sepperated from death for so long that we almost forget it, and certainly forget how to face it. When we loose our courage and heroism, naturally we look to systems and kings for safety and eventually a bad apple comes along and... whoops, tyranny. The root cause of tyranical opression, is fear. And throughout human history, we have quite literally yet to see a system of power not turn to opression, wether its capitalism or communism or monarhy and now we are starting to see that even "democracy" might be destined for the same fate In order to break what has been a symptom of human nature We must change that human nature If something has to change... something has to change Humanity must evolve beyond fear on a fundamental plane, otherwise we will simply be destined to live out endless cycles of strength->good times->weakness->bad times->strength

Andor proved Star Wars can still tell good stories, ​​⁠if Dennis was to do Knight of the old republic it would be great, Dennis is only person I can think of that has the talent to do the knights of the old republic, maybe Tony gilroy but Dennis Villeneuve definitely.

Dune has just completely replaced my need for star wars. Problem solved.

Dreams are messages from the Deep

Some people have been making this claim, personally I don't think we'll see a franchise replace Star Wars in pop culture for a long time. Even things like the mcu haven't reached the heights of Star Wars

"We dont need the Benes in our patriarchy" is just one of many clever changes; what a dark peak of tales of this dying petrocivilization

This is such an excellent essay

Your intro is nourishment for my soul.

I love starwars, and was into it quite abit reading everything I can about the lore , but dune is on another level, the lore is very rich and makes alot of sense logically and scientifically.

I seem to remember being in high school and talking to my friends in gym class about the phantom menace when it dropped and I graduated in '98.

Great analysis. Makes me wish I'd read more than just the first Dune novel. From a more pragmatic point of view, one might argue that the downfall of Star Wars is simply a result of the new content's fundamental misunderstanding of the original's ideas, and perhaps deliberate refusal to adhere to them. Many such cases of "reimaginings" or "adaptations" exist these days, seemingly created by people who believe themselves superior to the creators of the original works, and all of which (said adaptations, that is) alienate the enjoyers of the source material. In fact, I'd wager that a high-budget (thus high outreach) production with a classical heroic narrative could see quite a lot of success among the people at large, who at this point might well have become numb to the constant depression and doom they see in the world, and would be starved for such content.

Lost this channel for a bit but the name formscapes came back to me, made sure to sub so i wont lose it again