The typical flow of a MTG Goldfish Commander debate: Seth: (totally reasonably) statement A Richard: actually, the exact opposite of statement A Crim: the exact opposite of statement A, BUT in a way that pisses off the whole table Tomer: ok, guys. But what about…statement A?

@alaraplatt8104

2 жыл бұрын

this except theyre competing for who gets to talk

@jeffreyliebman2721

2 жыл бұрын

Do Do

Some great suggestions discussed. After having played a couple decades, the best change idea ive heard came from reddit a couple weeks ago now. It was that commander tax can be paid separate from the commander itself to put the commander into hand at sorcery speed, similar to nerfed companion rules. It would allow for larger commanders to still be playable after dying a couple times. I would add that this rule would only apply after the commander has been played once, paying 0 to add something to hand immediately would break it. But being able to pay 4 one turn then 6 the next for your commander is much more feasible than 10 mana in a single turn.

@MTGGoldfish

2 жыл бұрын

Hmm, that's an interesting idea. I'd have to think more about it, but my initial reaction is that it would probably be a positive. It doesn't seem overpowered, but does let people have access to their commanders more often, especially expensive ones.

@royalfishness1

2 жыл бұрын

@@MTGGoldfish my playgroup plans on play testing the change as soon as our schedules line up, I’m hopeful

@mightyone3737

2 жыл бұрын

That's a really cool idea, some games you end up losing because you just can't recast for the umpteenth time, and if you wanted to play your Commander that turn, it's the same amount anyways. It's not like high MV Commanders are running rampant at the moment, it's rare to see anything over 4 MV I feel like, 5 is pushing things, 6 is shocking now.

@Dataloss484

2 жыл бұрын

That would also make cards like tezimoc (the mono black dinosaur) and other random commanders that need to be in your hand way better.

@royalfishness1

2 жыл бұрын

@@Dataloss484 indeed :) would also spike the prices of any card that puts creatures from hand into play. I feel allowing big commanders again is worth opening up a new type of shenanigans

Richard, 'When a lowly guy works their way up the 'corporate ladder'" - they are becoming Legendary. That is the Kamigawa flipcard.

If wish grabbed things from exile, people would loop teferi’s protection, or expropriate.

@nickhannah7234

2 жыл бұрын

People win with those cards regardless, a three mana sorcery isn’t gonna break them insofar as they already are broken.

@N1ghthavvk

2 жыл бұрын

Looping those is already possible with the white 1 mana value instant. You just need to also recur it from the graveyard afterwards (very easy for blue decks).

@alaraplatt8104

2 жыл бұрын

no i think this person's right we don't want to make this any easier to do. besides do we really want to make exile into a 2nd graveyard or do we want it to have an actual purpose. gonna have to break out AWOL from unhinged to deal with this threat

@PPP-ww2gt

2 жыл бұрын

Also that simply nullifies the drawback of extra turn spells that exile themselves, or mechanics that exile cards like delve or flashback.

@crowsephonedangerzone

2 жыл бұрын

if wish grabbed things from your collection people would just own four extra copies of expropriate (i completely agree with you but the additional factor of breaking singleton makes the "anything from your collection" option especially ridiculous)

I like goldfather to acknowledge the mtg goldfish connection. But codfather includes the fish aspect better

@stevenutbean2207

2 жыл бұрын

Admiral Anchovie!

I hear this a lot "oh everyone combos no one attacks." "The combat step is weak." "Ow stop hitting me so I die a turn before I combo off."

@atk9989

2 жыл бұрын

I know I'm getting so tired of this line from Richard, it's like dude you only win games through combat damage what are you even talking about? That is literally always Richard's single wincon.

@tylerspeegle6494

8 ай бұрын

He's not wrong. Combo decks dominate the format

The thing about artifacts like thrumming stone as your commander is they’d have colorless color identity, making them far worse than they actually seem

@MTGGoldfish

2 жыл бұрын

This is a good point for artifacts for sure. Thrumming Stone would actually be a super bad commander I guess.

@ltjgambrose

2 жыл бұрын

I play a Pyromancers Goggles commander deck and being mono-red is a real restriction. There are a lot fewer 3+ color non-creature cards than you'd think. The main thing though is that there's a much lower chance that someone will board wipe or hold removal that can address it.

@masonpotato4131

2 жыл бұрын

@@MTGGoldfish Sword of the Animist and Eye of Vecna seem like they’d be pretty good though; gives options for colorless decks for cheap card draw and ramp in the command zone

@barrinburg612

2 жыл бұрын

And lands as well, they were talking about gaeas cradle but it would not be as good without gree,

@FearOgre

2 жыл бұрын

@@barrinburg612 Gaea's Cradle has a green color identity....

Every pod I’ve ever played in, combat matters tremendously. Prison effects matter, cards like Inkshield matter, combat tricks are crucial. I think there are a much higher percentage of pods who play super casual, battlecruiser/on board type of edh than you think (Richard) 😂 not *every* creature is there for attacking or defending, but this is how we win more often than not. During combat, and what results from it. And we like it that way.

Seth: "I worry about one player getting ganged up" Also Seth: Gangs up on one player consistently

There are 69 (nice) Planeswalkers currently with Green in their color, and 181 Planeswalkers without any Green at all EDIT: Of those 69 containing Green, 10 of them are Golgari, so Carth the Lion is already probably taking that Commander slot; 4 of them already have "CARDNAME can be your Commander"; and then 1 of them is Nissa, Vastwood Seer/Nissa, Sage Animist

Banned as Commander was problematic to program for MTGO would be my guess as to a 'real' reason.

@Briancjw

2 жыл бұрын

I always thought this was the reason because I remember times when updates happened on MTGO and messed up the banned as commander list and for a time they could be your commander

On the topic of infect - at a typical table there will only be 1 infect deck. So there will be 3 players attacking the 40 life total while only one person is attacking with infect damage. I’m not an infect player, but it doesn’t need to be changed. As far as I’m concerned it’s much more difficult to win with infect then regular damage.

@jamescooley5241

2 жыл бұрын

Triumph of the horde disagrees

@mark1A100

2 жыл бұрын

@@jamescooley5241 one card that is often run outside of infect does not disprove an argument. triumph of the horde could have the same buffs without the infect and just say if a player takes 10 or more damage this turn they lose and it would be almost exactly the same.

@zanesebo7288

2 жыл бұрын

This assumes that all players are ganging up on infect and/or using their removal on them. Would that often happen, and if it does, what does it say about infect that they automatically become archenemy from just playing that archetype?

@jefftaylor8077

2 жыл бұрын

@@zanesebo7288 I’d say that the fact that they become the archenemy at the table speaks much more to the state of casual commander mindset as opposed to the power level of infect. Think about it - most casual commander tables HATE alternative win cons. Mill? Archenemy. Combo? Archenemy. Stax? Archenemy. Infect? Archenemy. The reason being that a lot of casual players just like to play their battle cruiser magic and don’t like when something different is introduced into the equation. Mill and infect are so much lower on the power level scale then combo, stax, and even regular old beats. It has nothing to do with power level and everything to do with a long standing, and frankly unfounded, stigma against alt win cons.

@zanesebo7288

2 жыл бұрын

@@jefftaylor8077 I'm glad that your tables are so united, but it is not often I see everyone agree to take a person out just because of the deck archetype they are playing. The whole table ganging up on the mill player? Unlikely. When these decks prove to be threatening, that's when you might see the table start to shift focus, but I don't see a mill player get hated out early on. For Stax and Combo, Stax is just not fun to play against for your average casual player, so that can lead to getting hated out. Players also always need to be wary of combo decks because they can have explosive turns despite not having much of a physical board presence. Is that playing archenemy? No, but it can seem that way to a combo player if they are being attacked or having their value creatures destroyed. The alternative is they are left alone in their durdling until they pull out a win with their grip of cards they've been creating for several turns. I don't believe it's a hate of alternative win cons, but moreso decks don't have a lot of counterplay to these decks built into their own decks either because they are obscure or their deck doesn't have the right kind of removal to deal with it. When that's the case, player removal is the only real option.

Honestly I think the examples used for "flip-into-a-legendary" were pretty neat from a flavor perspective. Like, having Erbus as your commander is like you have Withengar leading his cultists from inside his prison. That's a super flavorful sort of Eldritch storyline being told right there about Withengar using his disciples to free himself from his prison *during* your session. That sounds awesome! Ormendahl as well. With Kenzo the Hardhearted it's a story of a regular fish-out-of-water soldier who feels way out of his depth but he's in charge of this whole army because someone *saw* something in him. All he needs is to grow into his role and he'll be a commander that we can all believe in! I think stories like this absolutely belong at a commander table and I honestly don't see a big issue of power level, even with Ormendahl.

@TenTailedSasuke

2 жыл бұрын

Exactly. In Lord of the Rings, the evil army isn't being led by a tower with an eye on top of it, they're being led by Sauron, who happens to be trapped in the tower. Same thing for Erebus. You aren't being led by a dagger, your leader is a demon who is trying to escape from a dagger.

The problem with wish for me is like what seth said a lot of silver bullet cards that you dont have to run in your deck making it worse. Atleast with a tutor you have to have it in the 99 with the chance that you draw it when it isn't good. An example of this is i can wish for boil and blow out the blue players, but if im in a pod with zero blue players i never have to commit to having the card in my deck. If you are going to run random hate i would atleast like you to commit to having it in your deck and making a deck making decision instead of just running it in the sideboard

@ShroudedBlade

2 жыл бұрын

I totally agree! The format is about deck restrictions. One of the restrictions is trade offs on running narrow or niche cards. Also adding a sideboard makes it a 108 card or 116 card format. (allowing for companions) I didn't like the idea of companions, they were cool, but it changed the heart of the format a bit. I like the format because it is 100 card singleton no sideboard, it makes it less min/max and it strikes a nice balance. I get that some cards and mechanics are not useful but it was stated that the RC doesn't want to make sweeping changes for corner cases. In this case I agree.

@necroinsanity2639

2 жыл бұрын

It also punishes you for drawing one off cards that you include for other reasons. I'm thinking of the Razaketh deck I have where I've been trying to fill it with things like tainted strike for a one hit kill, or Not of this World for protection. Problem is when you draw it in the beginning 7 turns of the game where it just rots in your hand, but that's solved with just running masterminds acquisition, then I can grab it out of my sideboard or get something to ramp if I'm not there yet. Edit: that being said, I do like the idea of trying sideboards, same with a bunch of other stuff.

@jacobchesney1558

2 жыл бұрын

It also means you can build a wincon less deck, and just wish for your wincon from outside the game. It literally protects your wincon from being touched

@wesleywyndam-pryce5305

Жыл бұрын

totally disagree, simply because commander desperately needs people to play more hate and everyone having a hate wish list with no opportunity cost means we get more interaction in games.

@wesleywyndam-pryce5305

Жыл бұрын

@@jacobchesney1558 what are you talking about? who is milling out your table so often that a card not being in your 99 is extra protection? that is absolutely not an extr level of protection against anything but a mill player.

I completely agree with Seth on sideboards. It would add way too much consistency and tutoring to a singleton format, and it also has logistically problems, like that you have to go get new sleeves for all your existing decks and potentially find bigger deck boxes.

@thatepicwizardguy

2 жыл бұрын

the unlimited sideboard aspect would completely nullify any need for that, and 100 card decks are already as consistent as you want them to be in magics current state which is exactly what richard was saying. more casual players CHOOSE not to make insane fucking decks which they could just netdeck and need no skill to put together or even play most of the time. adding wishes and whatnot doesn't affect the casual folk, it doesnt really affect the competitive scene since their decks are already nutso, so who does it hit? semi competitive decks by some margin? who cares? there's a chance somebody bombs you out in a game cuz they can pull some wish nonsense but suddenly they're actually LOSING slots in their deck to have flex wish slots and those wishes if unlimited would be a headache for a lot of players who would probably choose not to even bother and just put in the stuff they wanted to put in TBH. most players value convenience and fun over flat power.

The only reason I've ever wanted to pull from any card in my collection is specifically for Spawnsire of Ulamog. I wanted so badly ever since I saw that card back in the day that I could live that dream and never could 😭

The 2 problems I have with wishes is 1) it’s another copy. Like it isn’t just a tutor. It lets you play 2 fierce guardianships or 2 rhystic studies and things like this. And 2) since it doesn’t tutor from the 99, it breaks the “scarcity” of choosing which 99 cards to put in your deck. Like how many times have we heard that X card just didn’t make the cut? I do wish the lessons worked though :(

The wish takes were genuinely insane. When you include a hate piece to tutor for in your deck, you risk drawing it when it isn't relevant. Wishes don't even have that downside. The last thing we need is "tutors but even more broken"

@wesleywyndam-pryce5305

Жыл бұрын

tutors aren't broken to begin with.

@jadegrace1312

Жыл бұрын

Tutors aren't broken and are good for commander, as they reduce variance and increase deck diversity. Wishes aren't good for commander in my opinion, in so far as they grab things from outside the game. I think if wishes could grab from exile that would be fair, and interesting. But they probably wouldn't see play regardless.

@Crunchatize_Me_Senpai

11 ай бұрын

⁠@@jadegrace1312Reduce variance? It’s a singleton format. The whole point of singleton is _increasing_ variance compared to other formats. And I don’t know what you mean by increasing deck diversity.

@jeremyphillips3087

6 ай бұрын

I loved the any card in uour collection idea. Cards as printed.

@catfishrob1

6 ай бұрын

​@@Crunchatize_Me_SenpaiI'm guessing they mean that there are certain decks which are pretty underpowered but can work if they are able to tutor up a specific piece.

Alternative for Lesson/Learn mechanic: change the Learn spells to let you search your library for a Lesson instead of make a new wishboard. Tutor for mediocre spells seems functionally the same aside from negligible deck thinning & shuffles

@Aronia55

2 жыл бұрын

The powerlevel of lessons are way too low to run in mainboards

@veganeconomist7453

2 жыл бұрын

@@Aronia55 That's why this is a great solution! There's an actual tradeoff for Learn cards while still letting them function... creating a wishboard for them (syllabus?) just gives free value for the few Learn spells that are borderline playable already.

@noahfriedrich4686

2 жыл бұрын

Maybe to avoid too extreme sideboard interaction only allow lessons?

@deadlyslayer271

2 жыл бұрын

@@Aronia55 except for a few specific ones like Introduction to Annihilation in decks without white or green since they don't have many answers to things like enchantments(or artifacts either in Black's Case).

The thing about wishes is that they impose additional deckbuilding burdens on everyone. Even if I play 0 wish cards, I need to have a wishboard for the 1% chance I steal/copy a wish from an opponent through some unintended interaction. (For example, Hive Mind, Narset's Reversal, Memory Plunder, etc.) That means every deck going forward needs to be 105 or whatever the new number is, or you're just playing sub-optimally.

@allpissedup229

6 ай бұрын

Exactly, it's just unnecessary and convoluted.

Your season recaps have influenced our play group to collect data. Our data shows out of 123 games that the player who plays 4th wins as much as going 1st. 3rd is woefully behind and I believe that this is because the player in 4th is usually viewed as being behind and end up not being attacked or having their permanents destroyed. Something to think about

Wish: Tutors already go against the spirit of the format, i.e., embracing variance, but most importantly, they provide silver bullets in your deckbuilding without paying any opportunity cost. It's okay to play silver bullets that can negate your opponents' entire strategy, but it should come at the cost of being a dead card slot and a dead draw when no one plays that strategy. WIshes dodge that downside. A friend of mine uses Rule 0 to play them, and it feels unfair everytime. "Play more graveyard hate" will become "Play more wishes".

@fernandotanigushi8310

2 жыл бұрын

I play second rite of Hidetsugu in every red deck that I have. Wishes make this card actually playable

@connoringram4948

2 жыл бұрын

I rule 0 a wish card but its objectivly bad and is only for flavor. Its a dual faced card research something. It costs UR and lets me shuffle 4 cards into my deck not even in hand. I use it to bring more elementals into my deck like primalcrux and elderwood scion cards that are absolutly not silver bullets jus a way to get more variance. Ive never seen a playgroup not be okay with that even though i have a 200 plus card sidebord. My sidebord is jus cards that werent quite good enough to fit into main decks of several different elemental tribal decks ive tried to make and whenever i recently take cards from a deck i put em in my box and eventually cycle em out for new elementals. I wont ever take more than 15 secs lookin through my sideboard cus i jus add flavorfull cards to deck. I dont need this to be an official rule cus it wouldnt be used like how i use em. People would cut a gy hate or removal spell throw it in the side with a couple other silver bullets and never worry about your decks weakness again. I dont want yugioh were you got a 15 card extra deck basicly and your heavily disadvantaged if you dont at least use it.

The "penalty" for playing multiple colors is looking at the problem from the wrong perspective. I don't believe its something we can fix cleanly with mechanics. WotC needs to print more cards that properly incentivize more limited color decks like Commander's Plate. Or even burn spells that do more damage based on opponents color identities, some kind of color hate. I truly think that's the least complex way the problem is addressed.

@krotash7740

2 жыл бұрын

I definitely agree that a reward system is better than a punishment system, especially one that doesn't modify the rules. Promoting more mono colored strategies with powerful devotion payoffs, higher pipped cards, things like War Room. Imagine if Smothering Tithe was 1WWW instead of 3W. It would have a real cost to go into multicolored piles and probably be less egregious.

@eyeh0

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah, I think there really should be more cards that have effects that benefits from having less colors. It could be based on your commander’s colors, like Commander’s Plate, but even on land types and colors you control/in your graveyard/in hand so it’s functional even outside of commander. These exist but there should a lot more. I’m surprised there aren’t more stax pieces that do this too. Something like an inverse of Mana Maze, as in something that locks players into only playing spells that share colors.

@krotash7740

2 жыл бұрын

@@eyeh0 Do you mean like Hall of Gemstone? I don't think stax would be the right route for encouraging monocolor. Blood Moon, Back to Basics, Ruination all exist and people seem to get upset when I cast them. Rewards are always going to be the better system of gameplay incentives for encouraging play patterns. Don't introduce punishment cards for play patterns you don't like, create more rewards for patterns you do like.

@horstkalesen

2 жыл бұрын

The way I try to punish "greedy" Commanders, is by using nonbasic land hate. I do love me some Price of Progress or Ruination. But I agree that we need more of that.

A part of me does sympathize with not wanting making formats too bureaucratic but Banned as Commander should be the exception to this.

Richard suggesting playing wishes as printed blows my mind. That would be so warping it would hardly even be the same format. I can imagine it being some competitive player’s wet dream, but I would be running for the hills.

@thatepicwizardguy

2 жыл бұрын

the format has already been warped like crazy. who cares at this point? just dont play the game that way if you dont want to.

@CJ-nd9gg

2 жыл бұрын

@SilverAlex 1 There would be no opportunity cost to putting cards into your wishboard pile. That's extremely broken 2 it would be gross pay-to-win 3 the logistics of building, finding a box for, transporting, and most of all playing those decks would be a nightmare

@CJ-nd9gg

2 жыл бұрын

Also, because there are so few wishes, decks will probable have to be 4-5 colors

@CJ-nd9gg

2 жыл бұрын

Sorry for the spamming, but I think you mistake wishes as written for tutors. Think of it like this: you don’t tutor for a tutor, but you would tutor for a wish.

@CJ-nd9gg

2 жыл бұрын

Is strongly disagree that a wish (with an infinite sideboard) is even close to a tutor in power level. Let’s just cut to the chase, would you not feel you need to build a 5color deck, with a minimum of say 500 silver bullet in your wishboard?

Crim had the perfect counterargument for sideboards at 22:45. "I have to play something narrow [if I want to stop somebody in a particular way]." EXACTLY. That's the whole point of an upper bound to deck size. Every card in your deck has an opportunity cost of a slot that now can't be used for other cards. Opening up sideboards basically expands your deck size without diluting your actual deck. Demonic tutor et al represent redundancy for cards already in your deck that you have spent a slot on, wish cards represent a nebulous, yet-undecided amount of cards that you have otherwise decided not to run in your deck if you want to run null rod, put it in your deck. It's 99 cards (plus commander). If you don't expect to need it you might get wrecked by artifact/treasure decks sometimes. That's the cost of having access to narrow cards

@jondubois5347

2 жыл бұрын

I agree, having wishes in the format would bring nothing but increasing power levels and homogenous gameplay. I tried it in a commander league where we allowed 10 card wish boards for a time, and they were used exclusively for Karn locks and wishing for combo finishes. The rule lasted 2 leagues, a total of 12 weeks before everyone got sick of it

I feel like wish style effects aren't really in the spirit of commander being an 100 card format. The limitation for tutors are that you still have to play the card *in* your deck. It's not feasible to run 100 niche answers for specific problems, you have to pick and choose based on theme, power level, price, and priority, etc. The 100 cards is a limitation that breeds creativity. But with wish cards, you *always* have the answer. I feel like some of the most fun and unique puzzles and challenges I've had in commander would immediatly crumble to the constant presence of a 'perfect answer' card.

The downside to infect is that you are the only one doing infect damage. You now have to deal 30 damage by yourself. But commander Vultron at least still deals normal damage and you can close out the game without it.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't understand the doubling season concern with planeswalkers. Did you guys forget about color restrictions? I don't think it's as bad of an issue as you guys are making.

@thatepicwizardguy

2 жыл бұрын

definitely what I was thinking. doubling season is dangerous sure... but in planeswalker run decks it'd ONLY apply to green color planeswalkers so...??? how many of those are super dangerous with it? Arlinn, Embraced by the Moon Domri Rade (needs to survive 1 round) Domri, Chaos Bringer Ellywick Tumblestrum Garruk, Caller of Beasts Garruk, Cursed Huntsman Garruk, Primal Hunter Garruk, Unleashed Kiora, Master of the Depths Nissa, Who Shakes the World Oko just being your commander in general... Tamiyo, Compleated Sage Tamiyo, Field Researcher Vivien Reid Vraska, Golgari Queen Vraska, Relic Seeker (kills 1 player at a time) a couple more have some potential problematic stuff but these ones are 100% dangerous with emblems, land dumping, essentially instant win stuff, etc. some of these are fairly expensive commanders HOWEVER they're in green... so I'd say even though there's a green restriction going on it'd open a fucking nightmare door for commanders where you suddenly need to worry about all these and more in other colors who dont need doubling season to be horrific to play against.

@leviponce7730

2 жыл бұрын

@@thatepicwizardguy you forgot to mention samut which immediately tutors any 2 card creature combo onto the field and effectively wins immediately and part of the problem with planswalker 2 card combos is most of them are almost impossible to interact without blue because priority

@soren1803

2 жыл бұрын

@@leviponce7730 “I play doubling season, then my commander, I win!” W: disenchant U: counters or bounce B: debt to the kami R: chaos warp G: naturalize There ARE answers, and that’s assuming it doesn’t self police anyway.

Very much agree that there very well can be distinctions to the bans: banned as Commander, banned in the 99, even banned as Companion

@kriptonite981

2 жыл бұрын

Free Lutri!

I think a Wish Board is very dangerous. What happens when you can essentially add 400 more tutors to your deck? Also, you can make your win conditions Praetor’s Grasp-proof.

Genuine Question: Why do people dislike bans so much? If the argument is to introduce more cards into the format, don’t we hundreds every year anyways? Aren’t there alternatives?

@josephblattert6311

2 жыл бұрын

Most often there aren't alternatives because wizards makes an effort to not reprint effects that got banned before. And arguably a more important reason is that some formats, including commander, aren't meant to rotate. If you start banning liberally you not only take away cool cards, but you force people to constantly buy more cards, and if they wanted to do that they would play standard.

@VexylObby

2 жыл бұрын

@@josephblattert6311 Every time a card gets banned in Commander, it seems like we can see it coming. If a card just seems to regressive or too good, I probably won't play it and trade it away before I feel like it is going to get banned anyways.

@sirrslipp

2 жыл бұрын

Banning 100 cards could make 1000s more viable.

@sirrslipp

2 жыл бұрын

If banning a card opens the door for more. I’m here for it. Diversity in deck lists is part of the fun of commander after all.

I always thought that commander damage is 21 because it’s more than 50% of the life total.

@MihaelGeng

2 жыл бұрын

You lose a game for having 0 or less life, not less than 0 life. If "half" is the philosophy behind it, then it should be 20.

I like the Idea of adding Monarch as a sort of "community commander" Have it available for all players to put Monarch into play for 3 CMC as long as its not already in play.

Honestly the health change start actually punishes combo decks the most and rewards aggro. A lot of combo decks use their health to combo off. With lower health you can't go off as easily.

@sirrslipp

2 жыл бұрын

It’s obvious that combo decks dominate this format too. It’s shocking that the R.C. isn’t addressing this.

@peytonmillner6417

2 жыл бұрын

@@sirrslipp combo decks dominate all formats because they are perfect value decks. Every deck is looking for synergy between its cards, combo decks just have the perfect synergy. Its when that combo is 2 cards(usually a commander and 1 deck card) and wins on the spot or generates so much value that its ALWAYS getting a third card that translates it into a win. For instance, godo plus helm. Wins in 2 cards. Kinnen and any mana source that he makes go infinite. He self tutors out the win cons himself. He can even tutor out 2 or 3 convert colorless into colored mana cards to go infiniterer.

@sirrslipp

2 жыл бұрын

@@peytonmillner6417 Nice

Love this, I'd love to have a group that's down with Community Comander, where all of the popular rules changes like hybrid mana, silver bordered, more than 100 cards, and 7 card side boards are allowed. Could also rotate some of the other suggestions like infect and comander color identity +1, I think it'd be fun once I get the chance to play some magic again.

Completely agree with Seth on wish cards. The problem with Richard’s ‘silver bullets in the 99’ response is they take up a card slot and arnt always relevant. If you can wish out any artifact for example karn is immediately a tutor for any kind of hate piece imaginable while only using one spot.

The legendary non-legend rule could be like the color identity rule. Give permanents a "legendary identity" so if any part of them is a legendary creature it's fair to use as a commander.

I think something along the lines of 4 objects/cards that players pick in reverse turn order would be interesting. Something like treasure, clue, food, and monarch (could be adjusted). Forth player picks first.

@HunterEstes-Walrus

2 жыл бұрын

This is a super elegant solution. I also appreciate that this (especially with the inclusion of monarch) speeds up the game.

I think I’m good on the idea of a typical sideboard for wish cards. Lessons should be allowed if Companions are allowed, but both are pretty narrow card pools, so they curate themselves and self-contain their own power level and nip homogeny concerns in the bud. A sideboard that could just contain any cards would not have those safeguards. As far as Richard/Crim’s idea that wishes should just be able to get any card from your collection.... *HELL. NO.* That is the most insane take I’ve ever heard on this podcast. Sure, let’s just have a few slots in your deck that can just be any card that exists, ever, so the whole concept of thoughtful deck building and diversity just evaporates, and anyone can respond to anything that’s happening at any time. And let’s encourage people even harder to only play 5-color, so they can build decks with 5-10 wishes, and that can be the new homogenous norm, and building any other way would just straight up be incorrect. That sounds absolutely terrible. And it’s the opposite of future-proof. If they kept printing more and more wish cards, and they will, eventually every commander deck would just be wish cards. I would stop playing commander, period, if wish cards could get anything. Golos was bad for the format because it encouraged homogeny. Wish cards being able to get any card you own would be that problem on a colossal scale and kill the format entirely.

this article is the perfect example on how bad people are on solving their own problems

@mark1A100

2 жыл бұрын

I think its an example of people wanting to change things for changes sake. like oh changing a,b,c is going to magically fix the game

@felipeguidolin1055

2 жыл бұрын

@@mark1A100 the big question is: is the format really "broken"?

This was the best podcast in a while. Sometimes you four talk about a version of the format I've never seen ("casual tables are somehow simultaneously all combos and turn 15 games"), but overall there were fewer trolly takes.

How to introduce Monarch - Player 1 skips their first draw but gets Monarch. Player 4 can start with the Initiative during their upkeep, if you really want to get wild.

@alaraplatt8104

2 жыл бұрын

i think its funny that some people are talking about how going first is too much of an advantage and you're here saying player 1 should start with the monarchy

We've been playing with last player gets Monarch and I would say it's been pretty fun. We have seen a few cheeky play but you can generally see it coming when someone wins the roll and says "Yeah, I'm gonna play last..." discarding a large card to hand size.

I look forward to seeing how the rolling scry works out

I think since you can play creatures that transform into noncreatures (Origins Planeswalkers, new Innistrad Legends) the reverse should be allowed. Also, all the Kaldheim Gods already wrecked the whole "sentient" argument for commanders, because there's enough prismatic bridge decks that don't even know what Esika does. I think something like the new O-Kagachi would be a cool commander

Lower life totals seem like a slam dunk. Many decks such as all non-combo tribes like warriors, minotaurs ect.. just aren't playable even at low powered tables.

You all should have a series where you try out all these different rules and see how they actually play in practice. 1 game try any legendary as commander. Then the next game try combined commander damage and so on.

I'm looking forward to that new playmat.

On the going first question, my pod does similar with the rolling scry for 2 and 3, last doesn't scry, but starts as the monarch. We also roll to pick our position instead of who goes first.

Richard had some hilariously bizarre hit takes in this one. He’s always good for a left field spicy comment.

The big difference between tutors and wishes is, that tutors actually take a spot in the 99 and wishes actually dont because you just have your sideboard, so you technically dont loose a card spot with wishes and people would abuse it... Noone will play janky stuff in Sideboard -> im pro not having wishes

I think sideboards would just end up being a toolbox of stax pieces. People don't want to always run stuff like Rest In Peace or Null Rod because they're symmetrical and potentially dead draws depending on what decks are at the table. But sideboards eliminate the opportunity cost and will allow people to shutdown certain decks a lot easier.

If the turn 1 player was the monarch but couldnt draw naturally until they lost it, it would lessen the turn 1 players starting power(drawing first card at end of turn is worse than at start). And the turn 4 player usually won't suffer as people tend to swing to get the monarch. Early no blockers. Not perfect, but does lessen the gap between turn 1 and turn 4.

Gosh darn that 10 sec intro ad for the playmat is so clean

Sideboard: I like a 5 card sideboard you can apply after you see the other players commanders. Small wish pool. Going first discussion: 1st player normal, 2nd player scrys 1 after drawing, 3rd player scrys 1 before drawing, 4th player scrys 2 before drawing Commander damage: I would change it to 20 because 21 isn't intuitive. Don't like grouping it if you also up the threshold, screws commander damage decks.

Have have you guys considered playing the commander variant format Conquest ? It implements many of the rules you guys discussed today to try and make a more balanced format. Lower life totals, the scry rule, and a more balanced ban lists ( fast mana, tutors) . Including ban as commander. Overall I believe it achieves a more fair format. With less feel bads. Since people don’t have to self regulate themselves.

@FearOgre

2 жыл бұрын

lolol

Just started the episode, so I'm not sure if it's discussed, but I recently saw a suggestion on how to change the commander tax to make more expensive commanders more viable. Basically, you have the option to pay the commander tax on its own to put your commander into your hand to then cast it from there. For example, let's say you've cast your commander twice so far into the game and it now currently resides in your command zone. With this rule change, you would have the option to pay 4 to put your commander into your hand from which you can then cast it instead of having to pay the full cost (tax + mana value) upfront. This makes it so that certain commanders become more viable or even playable and it makes it so that it's much more difficult to be costed out of the game. Phage, for example, could now be cast from your hand with ease, and the Myojin cycle is now viable. Now, there would have to be another mechanic that allows your commander to be put into your hand before having cast it once (maybe pay 2 the first time and then the tax comes into effect from then on) but I still think this would greatly benefit the format as a whole.

@royalfishness1

2 жыл бұрын

Watched the video hoping this idea would come up as its the best ive heard in a long time.

If commander damage "won" the game instead of "you lose" it would be far more impactful and interactive. That way you wouldn't need to individually track on a per person thing. Each commander WINS if he does 21/30 total damage to someone etc. This removes the 1 person being eleminated. Removes the team aspect.

@peytonmillner6417

2 жыл бұрын

Like 21 total damage done = game won. Or something.

@sirrslipp

2 жыл бұрын

This is interesting. Someone should test this.

@peytonmillner6417

2 жыл бұрын

@@sirrslipp would also encourage more preventative fogs for other people. Makes more lore sense too, seeing a commander leading his ranks on the frontline is more likely to make them want to give up/swap sides than seeing a "advisor" sitting in a chair throwing their lives and lands away (chump blocking/sacing).

So regarding the rule about combining commander damage and you guys fearing that voltron will become too powerful, how often do you see more than 1 voltron deck at the table at a time?

I definitely think that multicolor decks have a massive advantage over monocolor, but I think the fix is for wizards to provide more support for it, as opposed to a rules change. For example (ignoring green), a two color deck can run a signet & a talisman, and a three color can run three signets & three talismans, while a monocolor deck can't run any! So adding more colors provides more access to colored mana, AND more access to 2-mana ramp. Monocolor decks meanwhile get arcane signet, the diamonds, and then colorless rocks, which puts them in the position of having worse ramp, and less access to colored mana, which is what monocolor decks should be good at!! I think the fix for this would be to print better monocolor rocks (such as untapped diamonds), cards that specifically benefit running fewer colors (like War Room), and monocolor legends that are powerful and interesting to play. I feel like cards such as Yarok should be monocolor, so that if you want to benefit from having such a powerful effect in the command zone, you have to trade off access to more colors.

I think part of what makes commander fun is the lack of consistency. I think a wishboard would be way too consistent. Of course I also think a lot of tutors should be banned so there’s that

"The first time a commander deals combat damage to a player, if there is no monarch yet, that commanders controller becomes the monarch"

@Oopsall

Жыл бұрын

Makes low to the ground commanders like Ragavan really broken

Best way to introduce always having the monarch in commander IMO: Set the monarch in the middle of the board and out of play. First player to deal damage with their commander gets the monarch.

The RC said the reason why Infect is still at 10 in EDH is because all it is best at is taking out 1 person so it needed a buff considering it would honestly be too weak to take out the whole table if it was increased to 20 infect counters. Let's not forget that the moment you blow someone up with infect is the moment the rest of the table gangs up on you to take you out as you are the weakest with no more resources but you have infect so you are still a threat. And even if you are not still a threat you are easy prey plus no one likes alt wincons like that in the first place, basically infect needed to stay at 10 because feels bad the table would have as just like Slivers they would still fear you

Our playgroup tested out some of these suggestions in the past. How it played out for us was: giving player 4 an extra card, treasure token, 1 floating mana during t1 main phase was too strong. First combat damage for monarch usually ran away with the game so that's out as well. Currently we have the last player scry 1 after mulligans. The scry thing can work but not as suggested. More balanced way is for p2 scry 1, p3 scry 1 x2, p4 scry 1 x3. We'll l test how the joint commander damage works out.

We've experimented with three different ways to introduce the monarch by default in some of my playgroups. The first is first blood, which heavily favors the first player. The second is whoever plays their Commander first, which still favors the first player but has some balance factors that made it feel a little bit better. For example it encouraged playing the commander out when maybe it wasn't as protected or not part of a combo. However it made more expensive commanders less attractive. The third was to give it to the player who went last both to introduce monarch and also give them a slight benefit for going last. This was more complicated because it ended up often the case that they were getting beaten up or losing it right away due to the tempo the other players had on them. It also was frequently abused to accelerate graveyard combos because of the need to discard almost guaranteed. In truth the best way I've found to guarantee there's always some element of the monarch in my games is that I just play monarch cards in every single one of my decks 🤷

@AgonalRhythm

2 жыл бұрын

One that I wanted to try but we didn't get to play around with too much was the monarch was whoever won the last game or a die roll if there was no previous game

Biggest problem to me with comparing wishes to "just another tutor" is its not, they dont search your libary so running burning wish isnt tutor 3+ its searching somewhere completly differnt, so if you made a limited sideboard that still has to follow singleton with your deck its not "yet another way to get x card" because if that cards in your deck you cant get it, and if its in your sideboard you can only get it with a wish also wishes at least (obviusly not things like karn) tend to say "exile this card" on resolution so actualy the more wishes you run instead of normal tutors the less tutors you techincaly have because they are harder to recure from the graveyard

Didn't like the idea of rolling scry at first, but after you guys talked about it I gotta say I'm kind of a fan now. I'd honestly probably take the scry depending on the deck I'm in.

The strongest decks are 3 or 4 or 5 colors. 3 color op commanders, 4 color duo partners, 5 color golos banned kenrith etc. 5 color decks are usually weaker than 3 or 4 because of mana base. Honestly "non-basic lands" cards punish 5 color decks WAY harder than 2 or 3. Back to basics/blood moon kills 5 color but barely even affect mono colored decks.

@peytonmillner6417

2 жыл бұрын

Multi-Color decks already get punished in game.

To fix the monarch issue: Keep the rolling scry for p2,3,4, but give mornarch to player 1 but it only activates upon being transferred to another player (no bonus card draw for p1)

The side board rule I'd make is: 5 cards, face up. Companions take a slot. Face up discourages silver bullets. It would still be singleton with the deck.

On the topic of multicolored decks being way too consistent for the supposed drawback of adding multiple colors... yeah, that's true. My solution to that would be to add a rule that enforces proportionality in your mana costs in the deck based on your commander. If your commander costs BBW, your deck's mana symbols must have 2 black mana symbols in their costs for every 1 white mana symbol. I like this idea as it also reinforces the importance of your commander. Deck building constraints imo are the reason Commander is so fun to play. Adding in more is good, if it reinforces the theme of the game mode.

From memory, the reason 'Banned as Commander' was removed, is because MTGO couldn't handle it (or simply they were too lazy to figure out the coding for it) For Rofellos specifically, I honestly don't think he's even that problematic as a commander anymore. You'd rather not limit yourself to monogreen when you can play more colors. However I believe The RC aren't willing to ban or unban anything on the RL because of the price spikes and crashes it would cause, and amount of players it would inevitably upset.

@donb7519

Жыл бұрын

i mean considering how many people think the rc use the banlist for insider trading type shit makes sense

With the last person getting the monarch I think it’s just looting & if given the option it’s better to loot than to not loot one of two problems I can see is that what if said person is running a graveyard deck? Idk how it might affect the game. Secondly the first player would typically be the first to attack & potentially take the monarch leading to them having additional benefit.

This is a great podcast episode... While I was watching, I thought of this rules change that can both introduce the monarch and give the last player an advantage... The first players gains the monarch at their end step (so they don't get the extra card) and all their opponents get 1/1 creature token that sacrifices itself when it deals damage... If every opponent getting a creature is too much, we can make it so only the last player gains the token... I thought that by doing it like this, nothing is added to the board that is very impactful (like extra mana with treasures) but provides significant advantage for the players that are not the first in turn order...

I LOVE the idea of letting people play over 100 cards!!!

I agree that something should be added to alleviate the disparity between going first and going last. And I agree that turn 1 monarch can cause weird things with discarding, and rewards the first player again most likely. Perhaps if the "Initiative" had a different set of rooms to reward as the game carries along, that might help the last player AND reward the whole table with bigger events (like Crim proposed).

Going into your collection and grabbing any random card with a wish is the most casual kitchen table thing imaginable and thus should be legal in commander

I listened to the podcast today and have half an idea about getting monarch started in game. Maybe the monarch starts on the table and has some sort of counters on it and when those are depleted, the active player gets the monarch. Maybe you have to attack into the monarch like some sort of NPC. Maybe you deal 5 damage to the monarch to get it? I feel like there's something there.

For the monarch thing maybe it's a special game action that costs some amount of mana. Maybe "3: if no player is the monarch, you become the monarch. Play this ability only as a sorcery" maybe that could work? This is why I play Queen Marchessa as my main deck. Everyone always has fun when I play her because of the monarchy

One solution that my old LGS implemented around going first that I carry into new playgroups is pretty simple. If you won the last game, you don't get to roll to see who goes first. This avoids the player who won the last game getting the advantage of going first in the new game.

Idea for how to introduce monarch: "First person to deal combat damage to the player who started first." Then going first has the negative of you'll probably be attacked first. If you win the die roll and have a low mana attacker, you'll probably even choose to go second. Does going 2nd become the strongest? Unlikely because there's a risk your opponent plays a blocker or someone else steals the monarch off you and you can't get it back. Otherwise, I love the idea of first down to 20 life getting then monarch.

@noahfriedrich4686

2 жыл бұрын

I think that would be fine, most decks really don't play turn one or two haste creatures and early creatures are usually more important for mana

In regards to wishes. I actually think they should work as they did when originally printed and grab from exile.

Responding to the Monarch, it is a good mechanic for Commander. I think the best solution is for Wizards to print more cards that introduce it.

I play with a group that generally prefers quicker games. Either they get more games in, or they can stop sooner if they need to. For this group, changing starting life total to 30 was easy, intuitive, and effective for both requirements.

I think a side board would be fun in a tournament setting. Before game after commanders are revealed you can exchange cards from your side board in your main deck and make companion take up one of those slots. That being said a wish Tutor is much stronger than a Demonic Tutor because you don't need to take up a deck slot on those cards so it absolutely should be limited how many you can have and still require commander color identity

What if like, first player to take combat damage becomes monarch? It encourages politicking, attacking, and doesn't encourage mana dorks. Also avoids discarding to hand first turn for most people.

In the tutor discussion... Richard, you have to get that putting cards in a sideboard protects them from hate, right? Like, you have to be smart enough to get that? Yes, you're definitely going to play X spike playline, but it's harder to gunk up now because a key part is hidden away in the sb

@raedien

Жыл бұрын

Yuuuup

Player 4 gains monarch when they damage an opponent

Funny thing is: The Prismatic Bridge a 5-color enchantment is a legal Commander that gets used... so yeah

I feel like a good monarchy thing is something like the first spell the 4th player casts just has "You become the monarch" as a rider, so then you know they wont have to discard to hand size, easy. I think it's important to keep them from discarding because it disproportionately powers up the yard decks if you let them get a free discard turn 1, like wowzers

My table runs starts like this: first player draws 7, second player draws 8, third player draws 9, etc... then everyone sculpts their hands down to 7.

Completely agree with Seth on wishes. Would be too powerful.

@starmanda88

2 жыл бұрын

Same here

For the monarch to be implemented is the first person to either miss a land drop or the first person to not have a land etb so natures lore or farseek don’t trigger it. That way it would typically go to the person who gets mana screwed so they can catch up and for the people who want the monarch they would need to miss a land etb so it would slow them down.

On the topic of penalizing multicolor. I think that blood moon, back to basics , and to an extent price of progress are great cards for helping ensure that 5c decks are kept in check. Also, I know we say its perfect mana, but perfect mana comes at a cost of life (if you don't have OG duals) shocks and fetches already lower your life total a pretty significant amount if you have 10 fetches and 10 shocks.

"let any creature be your commander" sub-format idea to go with that would be Peasant Commander where you can't have any legendary creatures in your deck at all, including the commander.

@thatepicwizardguy

2 жыл бұрын

multicolor decks would be fixed if they just banned lands out of the fucking format tbh. which SHOULD happen.

@lordofgarbageprogenitoroft4147

2 жыл бұрын

@@thatepicwizardguy it won't tho, so enjoy watching people play 50 dollar fetches into 20 dollar shocks in addition to 30 dollar rainbowlands and 400+ dollar revised duals lmao

I thought about all sorts of comments to make for each point made, but I think this one will cover all: EDH wasn't originally an officially supported format. It is one of the most attainable, and largest available card lists that demands a different approach to controlling it for official events. Three criteria for bans: 1. Banned outright 2. Banned as commander 3. Banned in the 99 Possibly other criteria, but it's not as concise a format as others that exist. It shouldn't be run like other formats.

the problem with wishes is then commander needs sideboard hate cause otherwise you place your pieces in this uninteractable space and dont worry about mill or discard.

I'd love to see the gang try out some of these rules, especially the scry 3 if you're the fourth player.