Crim likes Arcane Denial because it combos with Hullbreacher and Notion Thief

@a_level_70_elite_raccoon

3 жыл бұрын

I was thinking this exact same thing.

@randymotter51

2 жыл бұрын

Would find a great home in a Nekusar deck.

@T_Peazy

2 жыл бұрын

Synergizes* lol

Since Seth won't play Arcane Denial, he should also pay the 1 for Rhystic Study. :)

I think the data on three visits was skewed by the fact it was like $300 for a long time before it was reprinted. Otherwise I 100% agree with the points made by the crew discussing the ramp spells

@golgariguy

3 жыл бұрын

Also right now it's like 6$ whereas cards like Rampant Growth are like 25 cents

@moloy559

2 жыл бұрын

Going to slightly necro this to add: Taking a Three Visits over a Rampant Growth has bigger implications on the budget of your deck. In 3 to 4 color decks, the most consistent way to fix your mana is to pivot off green. The best manafixing cards tend to be expensive, and while that is changing, basic lands and things that fetch them have historically been the budget friendly option to fix your mana. I am an extremely budget conscious player, and running a bunch of bad dual lands is not only more expensive, but is often worse for a deck that loves its basic lands. The benefits of a Three Visits become more pronounced if your mana-base is already thriving and quick. That, and TBH, most budget conscious players don't WAN'T to spend money on mana-fixing staples. You want to reserve that 6 bucks for almost the entirety of that Krenko deck you've been thinking of for a while, etc. TL;DR: Lots of players don't want to spend 6 bucks on a card with marginal advantage that gains more marginal advantage the more you spend on your marginally better manabase.

@electricblue2920

Жыл бұрын

For me personally it what I got in my bulk pile from my youth. I got all kinds of rampant growths and farseek just chilling. I've had to buy all my three visits. I also had alot of nature's lore from portal but that's a more unique situation

@Gorbgorbenson

Жыл бұрын

imagine paying 300 for one and to lose 250 on that investment lol

@wesleywyndam-pryce5305

3 ай бұрын

​@@Gorbgorbenson cards are not investments. if a working class Joe made that mistake I feel bad for them, for everyone else they can get fucked lol.

When it comes to "play a basic land over Evolving Wilds", I'd say that's only true if your deck doesn't care about what Evolving Wilds does. Sacrificing a permanent, putting a land into your graveyard, 2 landfall triggers, shuffling your library on demand - these are all useful for certain decks. Arguably more useful than a basic land, despite coming in tapped. If you aren't playing cards that care about lands in the graveyard, landfall, sacrifice triggers, or being able to shuffle away the top of your deck, don't play Evolving Wilds. Otherwise, it's a decent budget card that fuels some common synergies.

@Kryptnyt

3 жыл бұрын

Yup, my eternal witness can get a land, my Sun Titan can get a land every turn, my Rings of Brighthearth has a way to get value, my Weathered Wayfarer can activate while Wilds is on the stack to get a land without being behind... Prismatic Vista is of course where you want to be, but Evolving Wilds is alright.

@mgschwartz

3 жыл бұрын

Ehh, even with all that said, at a certain point being an entire turn behind is too big of a weakness. In those scenarios you listed evolving wilds is only still just OK after certain things have materialized on the board state or engines have been established. And the card is outright awful if you draw before any of that has happened. The payoff just isn’t enough. Similar argument to why temple of the false god is junk. The opportunity cost of drawing it early can be back breaking (unless everyone else is also playing ETB tapped lands). However that’s another discussion on the fact that people should basically never being playing ETB tapped duals as a basic is truly better 99.9% of the time.

@WBWhiting

3 жыл бұрын

Lets you search up basics to give you protection from non-basic land hate, even bad slow-fetches have a multitude of clever uses.

@michaellooks8397

3 жыл бұрын

Even in a mono-colored deck, I'd actually argue that it's important to have at least one "fetch" land, even if it's just EW. Shuffle effects can be surprisingly handy.

@mgschwartz

3 жыл бұрын

100% would play evolving wilds over any ETB tapped dual. A basic land is always better than an invasion tap dual, a temple, a gate, etc. tap duals are awful and have none of the utility that even a slow fetch effect can provide. Realistically “bad ETB tapped” duals are probably the most overplayed type of card in EDH.

On arcane denial: Counterspell’s 1 for 1 in a 4 player game leaves the other two players with +1 card advantage, instead Arcane Denial replaces itself, the card it countered and leaves only that opponent with +1 card advantage. So less card advantage for opponents in total. Does that make sense, or am I missing something?

@firstandlast.1254

3 жыл бұрын

kzread.info/dash/bejne/YqZtxKmaqLDLkco.html ^ Great explanation on the value of Arcane Denial over Counterspell.

@estebanmarco8755

3 жыл бұрын

I was hoping to see this argument and cannot agree more.

@ADVBCAT

3 жыл бұрын

Yup.. if I'm player A and countering player B, and players C and D are bystanders... Counterspell: A - 1, B - 1, C 0, D 0 ... AKA A0 B0 C +1, D +1. So net two for your opponents. Arcane Denial: A 0, B +1, C0, D 0. Net one for your opponents. Add to it that Arcane Denial is much easier to cast, and that it is less likely to result in a tit-for-tat escalation that leads to you and B dragging each other down further to the benefit of C and D, and it's the clear winner. Only disadvantage is when someone is archenemy and you'd rather help your other two opponents more to avoid helping them at all.

@alecolson8360

3 жыл бұрын

Plus the psychological elements!

@estebanmarco8755

3 жыл бұрын

@@firstandlast.1254 I watch them too and that's why I was happy.

I think the topic this week missed the mark. Cards discussed seem to be "HIGHLY and READILY AVAILABLE" rather than "overrated". Like for example, who actually rates Evolving Wild highly!? There's a different between "oh everyone happens to have that card" vs "everyone who has that card thinks it's good". Am I wrong to say not all magic players play in such a way that "you make a deck list and go buy each of those cards"? I know i'm not one of those; i love to play with what i have and I am not big on buying singles.

@tonyfay2733

2 жыл бұрын

Exactly this. I was thinking a lot about the Evolving Wilds discussion as it was happening, and it just seems very removed from the reality of why the card is popular at all, which is for exactly the reasons you mentioned. It's also very amusing to listen to the debates about which budget duals are the best ones to own and run, but in a practical sense, these kinds of optimization discussions usually smell of taking a spiky mindset into the least-spiky playgroups in the format. The upsides of running Boros Guildgate over Evolving Wilds (you're running both anyways on a budget) are so marginal that casual players with already-unoptimized decks will NEVER notice the difference. the differences might factor into one out of every few dozen games, and even then it may have next to no impact when games go 15 turns long and no one makes a big play for an hour. The marginal optimization discussions being had here make sense if you're looking at higher power levels, but the players there are running better cards than these anyways, and would probably only run Evolving Wilds if they have genuine reason to desire fetches (landfall, shuffle, sacrifice, etc)

@monomanamaniac

2 жыл бұрын

I tend to think evolving wilds is pretty good. As long as shuffling your library for 1 mana is an effect you actually want, it's very useful, not to mention landfall effects

@dapperghastmeowregard

2 жыл бұрын

I mean, Evolving Wilds also has fucking baller alt art now too :P

@monomanamaniac

2 жыл бұрын

@@dapperghastmeowregard the dnd artwork version is amazing, I have a playset in foil

@giving6

2 жыл бұрын

@@tonyfay2733 if H Pumps

I think one thing that’s worth noting on why Three Visits specifically isn’t at a higher EDHRec percentage is that until commander legends in late 2020, it had only been printed in Portal Three Kingdoms, which meant it was $70+, so I just don’t think it’s really been feasible for most people to own until very recently

@calebo7223

3 жыл бұрын

And even to a lesser extent a lot of people are going to play a $0.50 Rampant Growth that they already own over a $5 Nature's Lore that they have to buy due to never being printed.

@Kryptnyt

3 жыл бұрын

It's been availible on Magic Online too, and I think a good chunk of EDHREC representations come from MTGO since they're already on the computer

@michaellooks8397

3 жыл бұрын

Even then, $2 Farseek vs. $6 Three Visits, it's no contest in my mind. (prices from CardKingdom)

@jaredgraham4363

2 жыл бұрын

natures lore was not to the extreme but it was a 8-10$ card until kaldheim commander and farseek in any 2+ colored decks is probably getting a land with types not a basic

@scottricks1676

2 жыл бұрын

I agree! I didnt get my 1st one till...was it eldrain?

Farseek can search out all kinds of land types except Forest! It is so flexible! It's so useful for 3 or more color decks.

@savagesnadgaming7252

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah Farseek is fine, not sure why that was mentioned as overrated. 2 mana grab any dual (including forest if it is a dual with one of the other types). I believe Seth was just saying that Nature's Lore and Three Visits should be played more than Rampant Growth and Farseek, but still...Farseek is invaluable.

@nanya524

2 жыл бұрын

@@savagesnadgaming7252 With the new Triomes in the set after Kamigawa Neon Dynasty, Farseek becomes the best ramp card in the game as it gets ANY Dual or Tri lands.

@savagesnadgaming7252

2 жыл бұрын

@@nanya524 My response was before those were spoiled...8 months ago...

Seth, cast Arcane Denial on your OWN spell! Especially if it has "can't be countered" text on it. It's nearly a build your own Ancestral Recall!

@iNCoMpeTeNtplAyS

Жыл бұрын

It is essentially if you have 0 mana artifacts like spellbook

The swords are 4% of all decks because they're colorless, which is likely more than say, 10% of only decks with green.

Who wants to tell Seth that farseek grabs nonbasic and thus duals.... Adding to this I run Rampant Growth over Nature's Lore and three visits in some 5 color lists that are on a budget now we have plenty of fetchabled duals that are affordable but affordable untapped dual lands are too. And without fetchable duals Rampant Growth can color fix

@theatog

3 жыл бұрын

That point bugs me so much. It's like they're saying "what's 5 dollars"? My reaction: um.... 5 dollars are 10 interesting 50cent rares. Do you really want to spend extra $5 on a ramp spell. He phrased it in a way sounding like Budget week is just their Commander Clash Fringe week feature when it's a literal everyday constraint people play with.

@timbombadil4046

3 жыл бұрын

Think they misspoke. Farseek puts it into play tapped, while Three Visits and Nature’s Lore don’t. Three Visits = Nature’s Lore > Farseek > Rampant Growth.

@Janitwo

3 жыл бұрын

Triomes made farseek even better.

On the topic of ABUR duals: I think adding a single dual to your deck changes nothing. However, if you're in a 4 or 5 color deck having all of them with a compliment of fetches is making your deck MAGNITUDES better.

@T_Peazy

3 жыл бұрын

@@SilverAlex92 yeah. But that's not adding a single dual land. That's upgrading your entire mana base and ramp package. Which is what I said.

@T_Peazy

3 жыл бұрын

@@SilverAlex92 but that's the ramp package doing what it's intended to do. Not the single fetchanle source.

36:27 - Tomer: "Moving on to a card that I put on this list, and I have a personal beef with this card, a decades long grudge against this particular card..." Was there anyone who was NOT expecting the next words to be "It's Hedron Archive"?!?! We got baited!

The Richard Garfield bit about him tapping your dual lands for you had me laughing out loud. I loved it.

@Kazz1187

3 жыл бұрын

Agreed, I was geeking

"i dont to give my opponent cards" Continues to never pay the 1... im kiddin im kiddin.

What if I told you arcane denial is actually a spell that says, "Turn target spell into divination, draw a card 2 mana." I cast a spell for 8 mana drawing me 10 cards or winning the game. Jk it's a divination now.

@Spaced92

3 жыл бұрын

Counter their combo piece and you also really don't care if they draw 2 cards, added bonus by their next turn a lot of people aren't even that mad because they like drawing cards. That's the great thing about Arcane Denial, people like Seth overvalue drawing cards for themselves so it's a really non threatening counter, when in fact it's better than Counterspell.

@theatog

3 жыл бұрын

With cantrip! Also I would like to point out that Seth and most counterspell players tend to disregard is the sunk resource cost. 1 Colorless and 1 Blue mana is probably the minimal amount to sure-counter any counterable spell. You took their best spell AT THE SAME TIME probably also trading 2 mana for 4+ mana. Another thing is the oppotunity cost: You, the Arcane Denial caster, get to decide when it is worth paying them two cards for the counter effect. It's not like "Arcane denial is in my hand and I counter the first thing I see now". And I think @Makena Maehara nailed it in the head: if the target spell is anywhere as bad as a divinition, you don't need to counter it.

@atle853

3 жыл бұрын

This perceived downside actually causes the card to perform better, players will naturally play it exactly how richard and crim said you should play counterspell. You should play these cards exactly the same way, arcane denial just happens to reward you for doing so, chaos warping their spell as a cantrip is crazy.

@abysmaltide3502

5 ай бұрын

This just completely changed my perspective on arcane denial. Now, I think it’s equal to if not Bette than counterspell, and I plan on putting it in more decks. Thank you so much.

With enough power creep eventually all the old staples will be overrated :P

@anthonydelfino6171

2 жыл бұрын

Yes. Don't know how long you've been playing, but look at how some of the mighty pillars of the formats as commanders have fallen, mostly due to "made for commander" cards. For years, Glissa the Traitor was the top golgari commander, now she's not even in the top 10. Rafiq of the Many was a top voltron strategy, but now Tuvasa and Galea have dethroned him in his colors. Olivia Voldaren was the top vampire tribal, but now why would you run anyone besides Edgar Markov? Based on EDHREC really only Kaalia is even still in the top 20 commanders of legends that were highly played in, say, 2013 when the format started taking off.

People always tell me that fire and ice is overrated....as I watch it rip through their board state because with doublestrike it kills like 75% of the most commonly played commanders.

@stankylegg1782

3 жыл бұрын

Outside of Voltron/equipment heavy decks, I agree with their assessment of the swords. Random value swords are pretty meh, as they require a lot of setup and the payoffs are just okay aside from famine. They're fine cards, but without good synergies I don't think they're worth running.

Ghostly prison makes spot removal more effective. It limits the number of attackers an opponent can use, and a piece of spot removal can now disrupt an attack even more effectively or be saved for creature threats that don’t need to attack to be dangerous.

As someone who has a 5 Color EDH deck as his primary deck. I can tell you from personal experience that the ABU Duals make a difference. I recently joined a new pod of players who have less powerful decks than my old pod and the first thing I did was pretend that my ABU Duals and my Fetches were just "Come into play tapped lands" and there was a massive difference in how I curved out compared to using ABU Duals and Fetches.

@iNCoMpeTeNtplAyS

Жыл бұрын

I have a ur dragon deck with fetches, triomes, shocklands, and only 1 enters the battlefield tap dual land from kaldheim as well as reliquary tower and only 5 basic lands, 1 of each color and a few other lands I cant remember but I never have a problem mana fixing. I feel I would appreciate using abur dual lands but they'd maybe save me a few life here and there which doesn't make a noticeable difference to me, at least in the games I've played with it.

@RyuPlaneswalker

Жыл бұрын

@@iNCoMpeTeNtplAyS shocks are a good substitute, with the full set of triomes out i've been able to use shocks as my abu proxy "checklist" cards, and 3 life a land does add up if there is an aggro deck about. Especially now that i discovered tiamat food chain lines and people are afraid to death what happens when i cast dragon mama

I think dual lands are over represented in EDH stats because most people don't manage their IRL cards exclusively on the data sources EDH draws from. A lot of fantasy deck building happens. I am curious what a real life % would be.

@sglied1320

3 жыл бұрын

I agree with this take. I do this (not with dual lands) but with fancy printings of cards. Like the fancy art Stoneforge Mystic, or Force if Will from Doubke Masters. So I can totally see people just dropping in the duals.

I play negate, counterspell, and arcane denial as my base counterspell package on a budget. Also I tend to love evolving wilds and terramorphic expanse because I run a lot of sun titan or landfall decks and it's an incredible budget fetch and works well with a lot of the synergies baked into the deck.

if not playing "real" fetchlands, I think evolving wilds is worth running over another tapped dual. fetchlands just have so many combos you don't always think about, triggering landfall, putting land in your gy to return, shuffling something you put on the bottom or top of your library, etc I like having 1 or 2 fetches in 2+ color decks even on tight budget

The higher your power level the more valuable single-target removal becomes.

With arcane denial, you have to think about the math from a table-wide perspective. Counterspell results in a -2 for the table, where you and one opponent are each down a card, while Arcane Denial results in a -1 for the table (from your perspective), where you are card neutral and 1 opponent is +1. This results in you costing yourself 1 card from a table-wide card advantage view, while counterspell costs 2 cards from a table-wide card advantage spell. I know this is a late comment, but I wanted to drop it in the comments to try to help explain to people a big part of the thought process.

The lack of mention for Into The North as an alternative to Rampant Growth is unfortunate. If you run snow basics, it's identical to Rampant Growth. But then in multicolor decks it can grab the Kaldheim duals, the Coldsnap duals, and it can even grab utility lands (Scrying Sheets, Mouth of Ronom), creature lands (Frostwalk Bastion, Faceless Haven), or even Dark Depths.

@kingfuzzy2

3 жыл бұрын

True that the cards insane

@hallorette5059

Жыл бұрын

It’s the only 2 mana ramp card that is allowed in Historic Brawl, and the difference between running zero 2 mana ramp cards and just one Into the North is a revelation.

I think farseek should be grouped with natures lore and three visits in the “cheap duals” discussion because those lands will enter tapped regardless, so it is essentially the same spell, if not better because you can get more colors and it’s cheaper to acquire.

If I want incidental shuffle effects, I play the Panoramas over evolving wilds. It comes in untapped, and you can save the shuffle until you need it. Evolving wilds you need to sac the turn you play it or you feel like an idiot. If you're not super worried about hitting pips, Panoramas have been the most free shuffles I've found

@BlinkyFizz

3 жыл бұрын

You need to pay to crack the Panorama, so it's pseudo tapped because it costs you another land. It will lose you a mana for an instant you want to play at end step, and loses you a mana on your turn if you need the fixing to play a 4 drop and this is your 4th land / mana source.

@kingfuzzy2

3 жыл бұрын

I do love fetches that add Mana over ones that just fetch

I'd love to see more "Secret tech" or "favorite jank" card videos. This is some solid content too 👌

@Tirvops

3 жыл бұрын

Seth's favorites jank card is Overflowing insight because card draw (and it has to be jank)

@Seatb3lt

3 жыл бұрын

@@Tirvops I saw that episode and I added all of their overcosted blue interaction spells to my Sakashima/Vial Smasher deck. When you're playing casual and dealing damage based on CMC high-cost interaction becomes spicey secret-tech. Spelljack is another example of my special sauce in that deck inspired by that episode.

@Seatb3lt

3 жыл бұрын

@@Tirvops sorry I read that as overwhelming intellect... haven't seen the episode where he mentions Overflowing Insight

@ianmcabee8036

3 жыл бұрын

Umbilicus

@Seatb3lt

3 жыл бұрын

@@ianmcabee8036 Added to my Liesa "Pay the Man" deck - pay life theme

Dual lands are not overrated, they are just too expensive. They are fetchable and in high tier edh deck of 3 colors you play 9 fetchalnds. To be able fetch untap lands that provides two colors is huge gain. In cEdh the same deck with duals have higher winning rate than the same deck without them.

Rampant Growth and Farseek have greater EDHrec numbers because they're significantly cheaper than Nature's Lore and Three Visits (not $4 compared to $2, more like $4 compared to >$1), and also are reprinted in nearly every green-inclusive commander precon. They're just more available. Other than that, I'm mostly in agreeance with everything else.

With Arcane Denial, another funny thing I don't see people talk about enough is sometimes you can just cast like some 0 mana artifact or 1 or 2 mana spell later in the game that isn't impactful and just counter it to draw 3 on the next upkeep. It's a nice cycle that leaves you at +1.

Pretty good choices overall. I want to see a follow up episode where you guys go over your favorite underrated cards

@MTGGoldfishCommander

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah, that one will be coming in the future :)

to arcane denial: every deck and player obviously has its own "needs" but another reason because of which arcane denial is better in commander than a defult counterspell is that when you counterspell you put yourself and the spells controller one card down while the other two players are basicly one card ahead for free. arcane denial may give the player one card but you are not down on any cards eather. If you counter not just as protection for your game-finisher and use counter kinda like removal I think arcane denial is better.(not to forget the color pip. counterspell makes you choose more often than you may think between progressing your board-state and interacting)

Anguished Unmaking is one of my favorite cards of all time. It answers anything for 3 mana at instant speed (that's not a land)

In regards to the Dual Lands, it adds up in CEDH... lots of players play things like Ad Nauseum, things like Mana Crypt eat away at your life, and being able to save 2 life at a time, especially in decks like Kenrith where you need the flexibility, duals beat shock lands by a good margin. If mana crypt can kill a player, or put players in range of random kills from creatures on board, shocking, 2, 3, 10 times throughout the game can easily lead to a quick death. In like a 2 color deck, sure a single shock is fine. But 3, 4, 5 color decks, access can be very important.

Evolving wilds and terramorphic are both great: double landfall triggers, mana fixing, goes to your graveyard so its recurrable and also, Seth thinks its not an argument but, deck thinning is a thing.

I was working on making a commander deck. Mostly for the fun of just figuring out the cards I want. Lands was one thing I wasn't sure about. Now with Tomer talking about all the kinds of ally/enemy duals there are I went ahead and made a list. Including all the types of duals, and triples, I could find and.. oh boy there are a few and some of them are pretty sad: - Duals Ally/Enemy Original-duals - Tundra/Scrubland Fetchlands - Floaded Strand/Marsh Flats Commanderlands - Sea of Clouds/Vault of Champions Shocklands - Hallowed Fountain/Godless Shrine Pathways - (Hengegate Pathway // Mistgate Pathway)/(Brightclimb Pathway // Grimclimb Pathway) Painlands - Caves of Koilos/Adarkar Wastes Fastlands - Seachrome Coast/Concealed Courtyard Filterlands - Fetid Heath Checklands - Glacial Fortress/Isolated Chapel Snarls - Port Town/Shineshadow Snarl Bouncelands - Azorius Chancery/Orzhov Basilica Snow-typeduals - Glacial Floodplain/Snowfield Sinkhole Bridges - Razortide Bridge/Goldmire Bridge Temples - Temple of Enlightenment/Temple of Silence Thrivinglands - Thriving Heath Guildgate - Azorius Guildgate/Orzhov Guildgate Gainlands - Tranquil Cove/Scoured Barrens Tapland - (Coastal Tower/Meandering River)/(Forsaken Sanctuary) Ally Slowlands - Prairie Stream Horizon Canopy, just Horizon Canopy Coloringlands - Skycloud Expanse Cyclinglands - Irrigated Farmland Snow duals - Boreal Shelf Storelands - Calciform Pools Other-gainland - Sejiri Refuge Freezelands - Cloudcrest Lake/Thalakos Lowlands Depletionlands - Land Cap Enemy Drawlands - Silent Clearing Campuses - Silverquill Campus Tap-painlands - Salt Flats Other Triballands - Wanderwine Hub/Ancient Amphitheater 2landchecklands? - Nimbus Maze Swampchecklands - Tainted Field Tap-fetchlands - Flood Plain Grassland - Triples Shard/Wedge Trilands - Arcane Sanctum/Nomad Outpost Shard Saclands - Ancient Spring Lairs - Dromar's Cavern Wedge Triomes - Savai Triome Homelandlands - Wizards' School Other Panoramas - Esper Panorama

I just noticed Seth's fucking captain beef heart album lmao I love his taste in music sometimes

Crim talking about a three mana card being "too slow" really points at the problems with how spikey the format has gotten. EDH used to be the format where you could play those high mana cards you couldn't play anywhere else but now with the spikes entering the format, it's now a turn 3/turn 4 or bust. I would love to see the old format come back

@jonnystorms3310

3 жыл бұрын

What are you talking about? EDH still is mainly about big splashy spells you can thank WOTC for all of the power creep in the format.

This was a pretty great discussion with good points on both sides. It definitely makes me reconsider my inclusion of Phyrexian Arena in both my Glissa and Teysa, Orzhov Scion decks which both lie higher on the speed/power spectrum.

Counterspell vs. Arcane Denial 4 players left in game -> **Counterspell:** You put yourself down one card, and one opponent down one card, leaving two opponents with +1 advantage. _2 total points of card advantage are given to your opponents._ **Arcane Denial:** You put one opponent at +1 one advantage, leaving each other player with +0, including yourself. _1 total point of card advantage is given to your opponents._ (Not considering the variance of scenarios) 4 players left in game -> **Arcane Denial is better.** . 3 players left in game -> **Counterspell:** You put yourself down one card, and one opponent down one card, leaving one opponent with +1 advantage. _1 total point of card advantage are given to your opponents._ **Arcane Denial:** You put one opponent at +1 one advantage, leaving each other player with +0, including yourself. _1 total point of card advantage is given to your opponents._ (Not considering the variance of scenarios) 3 players left in game -> **The cards are even** . 2 players left in game -> **Counterspell:** You put yourself down one card, and your opponent down one card. _0 total points of advantage for either player. (1 for 1.)_ **Arcane Denial:** You put one opponent at +1 one advantage, leaving yourself with +0. _1 total point of card advantage is given to your opponents._ (Not considering the variance of scenarios) 2 players left in game -> **Counterspell is better** . Pros and cons with Arcane Denial considering certain scenarios: **Pros:** Better cost Less salt Mathematically better throughout the majority of a commander games timeline Can be used politically Can be used to counter your own spell in corner-case scenarios Can be straight up card draw when used on your own uncounterable spell **Cons:** Worse at actually edging out a win when you're a finalist Is bad at containing the player that's ahead.

Seth, just counter your own stuff with arcane denial and that way you draw all the cards!

I think one thing was missed, the new options for ramp are really new, and was made more affordable really recently, so it may be that a lot of older deck, that where not updated are skewing the numbers.

I think Tomer is correct with EW vs. Guildgates. EW is only good for 3C+ decks or decks with graveyard/sac/landfall themes.

It's almost as if Nature's Lore/Three Visits were much more expensive earlier and EDHREC stats haven't caught up. Also, it sounds like Richard thinks you can have any amount of Evolving Wilds in a deck?

@Kryptnyt

3 жыл бұрын

In Nature's Lore's case, it was a fairly cheap card for many many years

@shinsua_

3 жыл бұрын

I think that part of his argument was just easily acquiring an EW for each deck you have.

@jackthebroken2084

3 жыл бұрын

He was saying if you make dozens of decks on MODO then you can just jam your 1 evolving wilds into any of them and not worry about picking up other cards.

The argument that sold me on Arcane Denial is this: If Player 1 plays a Counterspell targeting, say, Player 2's Kalonian Tusker spell, then Player 1 and Player 2 are each down a card. The net change in card advantage is two. Players 3 and 4 might as well have just each drawn a card, which means Players 1 and 2 are now behind the rest of the table. However, if Player 1 instead cast Arcane Denial, then things change. Arcane Denial is a cantrip, so it essentially replaced itself. Player 1 loses no card advantage while maintaining tempo. Player 2 also loses no card advantage, and instead nets a card. In this scenario, net card advantage change is one. The impact on the table is lesser, and Player 1 is no longer losing in card advantage to two other people. Now it's just one. Also, because Arcane Denial cares about card draw, you can have it synergize with cards that stifle card draw like Narset or Notion Thief. If you have a Narset, then net change at the table is 0, and life continues perfectly. If you have a Notion Thief, then you are up 2 cards and your opponent is down 1. For Players 3 and 4, they are down 2 cards. For Player 2, they are down 3. Amazing place to be, and even if you're losing, this simple synergy could turn the game around. Arcane Denial is a strictly better Counterspell and I will play it in any deck that needs a counterspell effect. Period.

You can put the two mana counterspells on isochron scepter...

- I have nine ghostly prisons, you cannot attack me with your laboratory maniac, nyxbloom ancient and willbender! - Oh no, what i gonna do?!

whoa this group is nuts. Seth is the most reasonable. defending like that such a BAD card like arcane denial is nuts to me.if you neglect the UU requirement, counterspell is so much better. I dont care if you cantrip, youre giving your opp 2 cards. I heard an argument during the vid saying "it doesnt matter if they draw two cards because you countered THE BOMB, theyre gonna get an expedition map and a land(..)" yeah and if youre gonna assume that scenario might as well assume that they draw ANOTHER bomb or a tutor or anything relevant....

It's downright hilarious that these guys will talk about playing only 3 removal spells in a 99 card deck, rate the top removal spells like Swords to Plowshares and Path to Exile as S ranked, and yet think that you NEED to get something out of playing Counterspell. It stops the threat from even entering the battlefield, no triggers, no chance to sac it, just stops it, and they're talking about playing Arcane Denial. When you take their thoughts on card advantage in one episode and compare them to their ideas on removal in another, they make zero sense. Everything they say ends up contradicting another point they've already made.

I have long been wishing someone bundled cheap staples. Like, I just want to put down 10 bucks and get a whole bunch of very cheap lands I can throw in all my decks so I don't have to order them. Temples, those cheap tapped tri lands, guild gates, pain lands.

@MTGGoldfishCommander

3 жыл бұрын

Honestly it's a great idea

@billranes1214

3 жыл бұрын

Same thing for spells,like a theme booster that has colored staples,like basic removal,good utility creature,etc.

@juangortarez3295

3 жыл бұрын

Supposedly Card Kingdom has a land starter package that sounds like what you describe but idk if it's just guildgates and such

@emilypearl3510

3 жыл бұрын

Card kingdom does have something but imo its a little bare bones. I would like to see more tri lands and Temples even if it increased the price. As a budget player, the not triome tri lands and the Temples are great for 3 color mana bases

the solution for the duel land thing is to abolish the reserve list and reprint the dual lands at common, just like how it is on MTGO.

@yujiro424

3 жыл бұрын

Common would be ridiculous. Remember pauper is a legitimate format.

@JohnSmith-hs9ez

2 жыл бұрын

@@yujiro424 fair enough. I just think they should print them so they are common.

Arcane Denial is a bad card. However, it's not as bad as people says it is. You counter a game winning spell but you only lost interaction for two mana and you cantripped. Yes, one of your opponents is up a card(not two because you countered one), statistically the card they drew will not be as good in that situation as the one you just countered and they also probably tapped out because you counter the spell at the end of a sequence. Again, +1 card divided by 3 players, is equal to 0,33 card in a 1v1 game and you gave yourself another turn to stop your opponents or win. High right now, not sure if this make sense.

@kingfuzzy2

3 жыл бұрын

It does

So, my reasoning on why Arcane Denial is better than Counterspell is the following: with Counterspell, both you and the person that got their spell countered go down 1 card. This means that the other 2 players are virtually up 1 card each: in other words, you generated a resource advantage of +2 in favor of your opponents. With Arcane Denial, on the other hand, you go down 0 cards and one opponent goes up 1 card. Therefore, the resource advantage generated is +1 in favor of your opponents. The conclusion is that in a 4 players game, AD is better than Counterspell, and in a 3 player game they are the same. Only in a 2 players game Counterspell is better. This is neglecting the fact that AD is more easily splashable, has an "hidden mode" to counter your own spell to draw 3, and if you use it to protect your wincon you don't care about the 2 cards being drawn.

I found myself disagreeing with every removal spell they mentioned, likely because I run way more removal than most players. Like, Utter End and Mortify are fantastic as your 16th and 17th pieces of removal.

@kingfuzzy2

3 жыл бұрын

How dare you run more than 10 pieces of removal ( ;

Love the back and forth discussion. Don’t always agree with Richard but I do like the evolving wilds. Also good preemptively Vs blood moon!

So what are y'all's feelings about Terramorphic Expanse?

@Rathkeaux

3 жыл бұрын

It is strictly worse than evolving wilds for absolutely no reason whatsoever.

@MrMarbles0Xecution

3 ай бұрын

it might come in tapped, but you're still thinning the deck. It costs only 1 available mana this turn to draw. These cards are extremely underrated by mtg players. most players don't seem to recognize that drawing the land with a land, means i have 1 less shitty land draw to run into later in the game, these cards add up, because you can have even more fetch land type cards like obscura storefront. if you have 5 fetchland that's a huge amount of draw compared to a deck without any fetch lands, all cost only 1 mana btw. these cards are broken overpowered. the only issue is now the land comes in tapped, so maybe if your competitive player in standard 1v1 at 20 life this might be too slow for you because you have some plan to combo on turn 2 but now you only have 1 mana to use on turn 2 because you played a fetch land. But fetchlands are very strong when looking at the bigger picture of the game because they are very low cost draw.

I think the green ramp cards based off the percentages are due to the amount of landfall/land matters decks that have been pushed the past year.

I think Anguished Unmaking is overrated. Like; yes it's the best rate for Orzhov removal, but Orzhov removal is SO GOOD that it's not worth the 9 bucks to run it over Despark, Utter End or even Mortify. I'd cut it from budget brews and sell copies to my friends and enemies so I can include more exciting expensive cards that actually do things to help me win rather than just really good fundamentals. (Seems really hard to separate the "overrated" discussion from price point)

Also, totally agree on ABUR Duals. If you have 'em, play 'em. They're good cards. But buying ABUR Duals for commander is probably the worst power to cost ratio in the format.

I agree about most of what you said about Swords in non-voltron/equipment decks, except for the case of Sword of Hearth and Home in a blink deck. I run it with my Ranar blink/Foretell deck and I love it, since he's a Vigilant evasive attacker that makes tons of evasive attackers by doing what the deck does, so there's no shortage of targets to stick it to that I won't be blinking (which is ideal; you can blink the equipped creature if I'm not mistaken, which is the 'floor' of the card I suppose). I think it's a perfect fit for him, but otherwise, if you're running something like Ephara or Yorion as a commander, who you want to be blinking or who otherwise might not be attacking consistently, it's not as good of an option (though to be fair I also play those in my 99 anyway because Azorius be blinkin' lol). What really sets it over the top over something like Isochron scepter for me is the fact that the land comes in untapped, along with the blink target (and the creature comes back immediately, which is nice). It lets you be more aggressive with evasive blink targets like Mulldrifter/Cloudblazer if opportunities arise (say, to ping down a planeswalker behind a fort of ground blockers) while also giving you more mana to hold interaction up, or even more blinky-value-goodness. Being able to do my blink shenanigans while simultaneously ramping feels amazing. My only real 'complaint' is that it's White/Green so you do miss some important bounce/kill spells, but that's fair since I think any other color combo would be busted (could you imagine if this was the blue/green sword?) But to your guys' point I agree that putting equipment in a non-voltron deck is overrated - I feel that, unless you have a plan to win with commander damage, or your deck relies on certain creatures connecting (like Phage, for instance, where the protection is a bit better than the connecting-effect) then it's just not worth it to run the swords.

Gotta say. I've never felt bad about resolving a ghostly prison. It plays a big factor on most of my wins in political decks.

What do you think about the political move of casting Arcane Denial against an ally's cheap throw away spell so that you can dig for answers? To me Arcane Denial is used for stopping game winning spells OR political card draw.

The arcane denial argument also actually feels more like a 2 for 2. If there was no cast trigger on the thing you counter then your opponent gained no value from their card you counter, you gained the counter and the cantrip, and your opponent goes up two cards.

Quick comment (though likely not the only one mentioning this) EDHrec uses the last 2ish years of information for their stats, which would include a little over a year and a quarter BEFORE the 3 visits reprint, basically Seth is saying all green decks before that reprint should have paid over 100usd for a common.

What balances Arcane Denial vs. Counterspell is that you have three opponents. If you’re player A and counter a spell of player B, the card balance of Counterspell is A -1 B -1 C 0 D 0, meaning you and B are behind and C and D are ahead. With Arcane Denial, the balance is A 0 B +1 C 0 D 0. You’re putting B ahead in cards, but they just lost their big spell, and most importantly, you’re not putting yourself behind.

Speaking on dual lands. What about Gaea's Cradle? There are no 99% like substitutes. I know there are cards that could get you there that are far cheaper but they are no where near as effiecent as a shock land is vs. revised dual land cost to ulility ratio. It could cost elf tribal decks the game if they didn't have it. Just curious on your thoughts. I bought a gold bordered gaea's cradle awhile ago so that is what I use in my decks.

Loving these. Keep them coming :)

I think Skyshroud Claim deserves an honorable mention among 4 cmc ramp spells, because it fetches dual lands and brings them in untapped, which is actually very good ramp. I also like Migration Path for its cycling option and love it in my dinosaur egg deck. It has matching flavour and the deck really wants to ramp, but can't afford mana dorks because they would screw up Atla Palani's egg triggers.

I don't play Arcane Denial anymore. But now that you have such things as hullbreacher and Narset, I feel more ok to run it i a Blue Heavy tech deck...

Counterspell puts you down a card against 2 opponents while arcane denial puts you down a card against 1 opponent who might not be able to cast anything they drew.

I like arena only for black devotion decks, getting the extra 2 devotion of black can be a definite game changer when u know Gary is coming down

Is there any chance everybody's audio level could be even in future podcasts? Usually at least one of you is very quite and the rest will be louder Really enjoy your content :)

Richard is just wrong on counterspell. He is right that the free ones are better, but they are also expensive. However if you're going to go cheap you don't want to jump up to CMC 4 and 5 counterspells. You simply can't justify holding open that much mana each turn to have your interaction available. Counterspell isn't just to protect your board state, its also to stop the enemy from going off. Not everything can be solved with Teferi's protection. Teferi doesn't do anything to stop Thassa's Oracle> Demonic Consultation. The power of Counterspell is that it stops pretty much everything, at the cost of having to be timed correctly and played preventatively instead of reactively. You just can't get that from other effects. Board protection like Heroic Intervention or Teferi stops certain kinds of attacks on you personally, but doesn't stop the actual attack by the opponent. If you Teferi out of the way of a Craterhoof, yeah you survive but likely you are the only one left alive facing down an enormous board state alone and you simply die the next turn. This isn't to say Teferi is bad, board protection in its niche (against wrath effects) is an incredible reverse blowout but it is a niche thing. Counterspell gives up that reverse blowout potential for being incredibly versatile, dealing with all spell types and threats which do their thing "on the stack" like Thassa's oracle. Every blue deck should be running a critical mass of counterspell effects (at least 6-8) so you can ensure you draw into at least one per game. There is absolutely no substitute for the versatility of counterspell, and there are many cases where the game can literally hinge on whether or not the blue player has a counterspell to stop whats happening or not.

Jokes on you I play evolving wilds with real fetches!

@kingfuzzy2

3 жыл бұрын

I admire your wild life

Evolving Wilds and Terramorphic Expanse actually come into play untapped though, so their downside can be negated with Chromatic Lantern, Urborg, Yavimaya, Riftstone Portal, etc... The problem with the dual lands cost argument is that dual lands retain their value.

is it only about price ? what if you proxy the lands?

I think with Counterspell, you have to look at it as trading one of your cards for one of your opponents cards. In 1v1 that'd be a wash. In a four player game, if you thoughtseize a guy on turn one, and then Inquisition and Duress him on turn 2, you and that player are down three cards while two players are sitting around wondering what happened. If you spread those spells around, only you are down three cards. I'd say Arcane Denial has the same problem as counterspell in a different direction, because it puts one opponent at +1ca, but you can only play one Arcane Denial because there's really nothing like that. Arcane Denial has a hidden Draw 3 mode in some decks as well, so that's worth considering if you want to play it in something. I think if Dream Fracture had Counterspell's mana cost it'd be one of the best multiplayer counterspells available.

Like Crim said, Arcane Denial is soooo good for Spellslinger, especially since, if you free-cast it with something like Mizzix’s Mastery or Mind’s Desire, you coils target your own less-effective spell (like a 1-drop) and draw 3 cards next Upkeep!

Phyrexian Arena was a card I had an eye on for a while, but I went Dark Prophecy instead. Between board wipes and sacrifice outlets I can draw a fair few cards rather quickly. Stack it with Skullclamp and you get three cards. Use it in my pest deck to effectively convert life gain into card draw. With Beledros Witherbloom out, I can use sac outlets to draw at least one card per turn and not just each one of my turns. So yeah at least for this particular style Phyrexian Arena is just weaker for the same mana as Dark Prophecy, the latter of which is also way cheaper moneywise.

good replacements for evolving wilds if you dont care about the shuffling and landfall triggers are the vivid cycle of lands from llorwyin and the thriving cycle from jumpstart

Love the disagreements and view points!

Counterspell is bad because it's double blue... What? Every counterspell effect that is unconditional and without a downside are double blue. There are 4 and 5 mana counterspells that see play with double blue... Countering is simply an incredibly powerful mechanic in magic, and it is only found in blue. It shouldn't be something that's less than 2 colored mana because it is that integral to the colour identity. I don't think it's overrated. Its cheap, just got a reprint, it's efficient, and its iconic to blue.

This started devolving into "How can Tomer say he dislikes Zur without saying he dislikes Zur"

@MTGGoldfishCommander

3 жыл бұрын

Wait, I don't like Zur?

I play Farseek, Rampant Growth, Nature's Lore, Three Visits, Kodama's Reach and Cultivate in my green decks. Except my golgari deck, I run land enchantments there.

I can't believe I agree with crim about something. Arcane denial is amazing, it's the only counterspell I actually like playing, besides maybe swan song.

Imo 4 mana ramp just isn't worth it anymore; even the new Explosive Vegetations with upside are NOT worth it when you can just run 2-3 mana ramp

"arcane denial will you choose to draw 2 cards? " I will" "I flash notion thief and draw 3 cards" I get that it's situational but notion thief for me anyway is a must have

I think cards like Evolving Wilds, Explosive Vegetation, Arena etc are heavily played simply because people happen to own those cards. Not everybody builds new decks with exclusively Magic-2020+ power level cards. I have Sword of the Animist in many of my decks, simply because I happen to own a stack of them.

@michaellooks8397

3 жыл бұрын

Dang, jealous lol. I sold mine back when it got reprinted in 2017, when I first joined MTG, to try and get into modern. Worst decision of my MTG life lol.

@NeiroAtOpelCC

3 жыл бұрын

@@michaellooks8397 there are worse choices to make. I spent a bit over over 500€ on packs for a chaos draft less than a month before the mystery boosters were annnounced.

Those original dual lands are TOTALLY worth it if you have the budget. Firstly, their price is only going up in the foreseeable future and, secondly, any deck in those colors will always be better for having them, even though it is a minuscule percentage improvement. Top left guy essentially put it right.

Arcane denial ends with one opponent +1 , while counter leaves you and that opponent -1, meaning u both are down 2 at the table, while counter leaves you down 1

-On the ramp package: Rampant Growth and Farseek come in precons, and Farseek gets you more types than just forests. But to me is just choose your favourite, the upside of the different options of 2mv ramp is thaaaaat big -Counter magic: OG Counterspell is always good because of versatility, and Arcane Denial is great because it replaces itself (if I'm playing control I care about me having cards, I don't care as much abut you having cards) and because it can cost just blue. I like both. -Evolving Wilds: Mhe, I play it, but If I can choose my colorless land for fixing I'd say Ash Barrens. -I can't hate on Phyrexian Arena. My brain tells me that isn't that good, but my heart loves it -I agree about Ghostly Prison, I never knew someone that thinks that way, but if they exist they're wrong, Ghostly Prison si not removal -Totally agree with Crim on OG duals. I mean, every Reserve List card is somehow overrated, because they're not worht their price, but OG duals are the deffinition of "there's always a replacement" -On swords: I think that Feast and Famine is s good that it becomes super annoying to play against (also because green is so omnipresent nowdays), and Fire and Ice is solid. All others go from mhe to bad -Mortify is a dated card that I only add in budget decks; and I love paying more for versatility and Utter End fits that place

So imma push back on the Phyrexian Arena take for a really stupid reason but in the 1st few turns i want to play value pieces i may not want 2 additional card in my hand turn 3 giving me 8 while tapped out and I have to discard but an additional card turn 4 with 4 mana available etc might be beneficial especially if I just used Evolving Wilds to shuffle my deck changing my draw

Surprised Triomes weren't brought up with Nature's Lore/Three Visits, which has also made those two absolute slam dunks in any 3+ color deck with green mana in it

@MTGGoldfishCommander

3 жыл бұрын

They're great but they're also all like $10 a pop so we stuck with budget examples. With a higher budget they're excellent.

Late to the comment section here, but a lot of people build with what they HAVE and while the difference between $2 and $4 might not be much, it still takes an active effort to upgrade if you have 10 copies of rampant growth already. People tend to spend money on upgrading things outside of their ramp, but if you're buying several $10+ cards for a deck you 100% should be upgrading your ramp, etc. Same goes for evolving wilds, everyone who regularly buys precons has 10 already but they have to go out and GET the other duals.

on the swords; Sinew and Steel is better than people give it credit for. prot red and black are the 2 biggest colours for targeting your creatures with removal, and there's almost always an artifact to take out, which makes it totally playable in a control deck looking for a protection piece

I get the feeling that tomer learned his lesson saying people are bad for playing hedren archive

@MTGGoldfishCommander

3 жыл бұрын

Hedron Archive is so bad that it's not even worth debating in the video :P

Arcane Denial has more hidden modes when you build around it, the cost reduction argument is significant in my mind because there aren’t many spells that can be reduced to just a U and still is an unrestricted hard counter. Full stop. Additionally, if you’re playing with spell copies/mage craft, you can turn arcane denial into a draw spell: 1. Cast Arcane Denial, *trigger copy effect* 2. Copy of Arcane Denial counters the original. 3. Next upkeep, you draw 1 and then 2 cards. One for the copy of Arcane Denial resolution, and 2 from countering your original. It’s not super common to get to do this, but it’s why I think Arcane Denial is profoundly more powerful than counterspell. You can build around arcane denial without having to go out of your way to change your deck in the spellslinger/copy/magecraft list to build your own Ancestral Recall, or I guess Ancestral Visions for the timing analog.

You can also counter your own spell with arcane denial to draw 3 cards, that's probably very edge case, but if you fluster storm, dont need a copy of it and you really need to draw more cards, it could be used for that, lol.