Richard savagely calling all of em out for not playing battlecruiser is the funniest thing I've seen today.

@CorsairJoshua

3 жыл бұрын

"It's like saying Snapcaster beats is aggro." is such a 10/10 line from Richard.

Seth bringing the brutal truth near the end there haha. "Are you winning because you played Birds or are you winning because you played some of the best cards printed in magic + birds?"

"It feels wrong playing a deck poorly" he says when the optimal choice is avoided in favor for drawing cards 🤣

@valroy4859

3 жыл бұрын

"But the optimal choice is always to draw cards" - Seth, probably

@Grinthex

3 жыл бұрын

But drawing more cards is the optimal choice.

@TheGorick

3 жыл бұрын

There is differmt between i like this play more and it still a good play, and well this is the best play and I would like it, but its not fun so ill do something bad

@chrisporter4993

2 жыл бұрын

Unless you have a line of play to win, or are absolutely in a position to lose imminently, drawing cards is very rarely a sub-optimal choice.

Richard putting them in their place gives me life. They're out here complaining about consistency issues when Tomer plays combo every week.

@Spaced92

3 жыл бұрын

I don't see why you can't argue for the health of the format when Tomer doesn't really play unhealthy decks. He's not exactly playing the most consistent combos.

@adamfiliatreault3393

3 жыл бұрын

Tomer plays fun combos. There are others on the crew who only play disruption and grief cards, making the games so un-fun

@regail7143

3 жыл бұрын

@@Spaced92 Niv mizzet, ashaya, galazeth,... to name a few

@regail7143

3 жыл бұрын

@@adamfiliatreault3393 disruption is important. Grief cards are pretty much only played my crim

@adamfiliatreault3393

3 жыл бұрын

@@regail7143 and they only ever seem to go at one player. I think that's why I find it so frustrating, because I've been on the receiving end of tunnel visioned hate before

When was the last time you won through combat? - Richard I see the rest of the crew didn't have a counter for that heh...

Seth: "It feels weird for me to try to play a deck badly" Also Seth: "I'm not trying to kill anyone, I just want to draw cards!"

@jasonholmes5714

3 жыл бұрын

It’s not wrong if he feels it’s right.

@VexylObby

2 жыл бұрын

@@jasonholmes5714 That's a horrible take.

@kylejohnson4662

2 жыл бұрын

But if the deck is designed to draw cards, then killing someone is playing the deck badly

Crims deck contains no pathetic cards Kaiba boy.

Seth is 100% correct about cards printed for commander being against the spirit of the format. Speaking of which, have you guys ever done a Commander Clash episode where only cards printed before Commander 2011 are legal?

@Trebbih

3 жыл бұрын

They did an episode with the professor from tolarian community college where only cards from standard sets where aloud. No commander product cards. I think that's the closest to what you are after, at least that I can think of

@petersteiman2443

3 жыл бұрын

@@Trebbih Would you believe me, if I told you that within minutes of making that comment KZread recommended that episode for me to watch.

@shinsua_

3 жыл бұрын

Pioneer EDH actually sounds like a dream...

If a tutor is always going to get one or two things, I won't play it, or more likely I wouldn't build that deck in the first place. I love Search for Glory because it finds a huge variety of things (removal sagas, legendary synergy pieces, snow dual lands) but it's still limited and doesn't feel broken at three mana. Really hope it stays cheap enough to keep putting in my 100 dollar decks

I wouldn't call Opposition Agent resource denial, unless you're specifically responding to the player attempting to ramp to fix their own resources. If an OA hits a tutor that was meant for a game winning card; it's closer to denial. If an OA hits a tutor that was meant for an answer; it's closer to protection.

36:27 while Crim is technically correct, there is such a massive difference between tutoring for a Dark Depths with expedition map, and a traveler's Amulet that tutors for basic lands. It borders on insanity, its like saying Thalia and Mistral Charger are in the same class of card because they're 1W 2/1s.

@anxez

3 жыл бұрын

Green players stop whining when their unchallenged ramp and fixing are challenged, challenge, 2021.

@direkitsune

2 жыл бұрын

@@anxez your talking about green ramp, when the topic was two artifact ramp that goes anywhere XD

@olvynchuru1663

2 жыл бұрын

That actually depends on the context. If I was playing a limited game (where flying is really good and players don't typically cast tons of cheap noncreature spells), I would rather have Mistral Charger than Thalia.

There has to be punishment to deter the behavior. One of the reasons that Green is as strong as it is is because of the general community hate for the original way to do it (land destruction). You have to be able to be punished for over-committing to any one path, and tutor hate cards cover two bases so it's actually a perfect solution.

@SackofDooDoo

3 жыл бұрын

This 100% . Part of the reason Simic (or landfall decks in general) dominates casual edh is because people look down upon MLD. This is the definition of hypocrisy, as the landfall player is intentionally utilizing a strategy that they are aware the rest of the players won't interact with just because of the taboo of touching lands. If people expect players not to play something that stops a particular strategy, they will naturally go all into it and will either be salty when someone does stop it, or everyone will just play the same exact deck strategy (low deck diversity).

@VexylObby

2 жыл бұрын

Every color has treasures now, and you can only build up mana so much. Green having ramp is not so much an issue. Especially when most commander decks are more than one color now too. And punishment can exist, but not in poor design.

@Ixidora

2 жыл бұрын

I openly run 2, let me repeat that, TWO "destroy all lands" spells because I staunchly refuse to play green and explained my stance just as you described in your main post as the original answer to green ramp. I also DO NOT cast them whenever without consideration, I will drop it at a time when the green player has committed half or more or their mana base to the board by the time the rest of the table has like 5 lands, at that point mathematically the green player has effectively been killed by a land wipe and the other three players can fight with their undamaged draw ratio of lands.

@VexylObby

2 жыл бұрын

@@Ixidora Real embarrassing when there isn't a green player at the table or when you just end up hosing the player just about to catch up. OR you could have targeted land removal for the inevitability that there is always one player ahead of the table or a problematic land, in addition to ramping yourself.

@Ixidora

2 жыл бұрын

@@VexylObby interesting you point to play patterns I said I don't utilize as they're degenerate, in all of those scenarios I'm more than happy to pitch it as fuel for Cathartic Reunion or similar loot/rummage effects. I run around 10 general hoses and am perfectly capable of playing around them being "turned off". So no, not embarrassing in the slightest when my opponent sees me discard Armageddon to draw two with no green players at the table because it didn't bring value to that board state. There's a big difference between running a card because it does work and running it because you know when and how to use it properly. Also I do run strip mine for targeted land removal, it takes up a spell slot in my count.

Their responses to how Crim enjoys playing Commander is why he was effectively house banned this season. It is also why Crim's play style is my favorite out of the crew. He is actively trying to interact with the table and actively making them work for their win cons. Everyone else at the table just gives them the greenlight and says go for it.

41:50 Interaction (even stax) as a puzzle is very much the best fun in edh. You get a unique game each time and it really tests your play skill and deck building. Getting locked out and losing makes for some great post-game conversations, too, as you get to go over the decision points and lines and figure out how to deal with a similar situation next time.

I think yall are over estimating how many of us have fetch lands. Their super expensive cards that don't add tons of value to a deck. Most folks I know who play commander aren't running fetches, their running tap lands and that one shock land they got from a draft they did or whatever.

@Red-Tower

3 жыл бұрын

I mean, there are the tapped fetches, myriad landscape, panoramas, etc. That are cheaper, but generally yeah, most "kitchen table" commander players are buying cheap bulk cards, 1 dollar rares, cards from draft or cracking random packs, and maybe maybe buy a precon deck here and there. And beyond that there's still a whole lot of casual players who's budget isn't going to include fetches and shocks; it's going to at most be building a deck online and going off the tcgplayer or card kingdom price the deck builder shows them to stay on budget, and buying singles to fill it out. But Tomer does point out they are in the entitled 1% of players in several ways. Playing all the time and creating Magic content all the time in lots of formats. Tomer is the only one that I know for sure plays commander with random people/viewers and that's still on MTGO where you can play vintage for a fraction of the price of playing in paper.

@cz75fanatic

3 жыл бұрын

@@Red-Tower i agree, the issue is that for them who mainly play mtgo having a play set of fetches costs like $10 while paper players aren't spending $80 per deck on lands minimum. Im honestly annoyed that wizards has refused to print the fetches and shocklands in every commander produc

@regirayquaza

3 жыл бұрын

@@cz75fanatic $10 for a shock isn't that bad for such a high demand land.

Me and my friends when we get together to play we usually bring our decks, in general each one has between 3 to 5 decks, and at the time of the game we draw who goes with each deck. It's been a cool experience to see our decks in the hands of others, to see what makes them boring, or overwhelming, sometimes even to see strategies that we hadn't thought of as we built them. I thought about this draw scheme many years ago when I noticed that in general there were certain decks of mine that people hated playing against, it was a way to measure it.

As someone who actually plays pretty infrequently, running tutors helps me actually figure out what is good in my decks, because I rarely just happen upon them in a game. By the time the next set comes out I haven't even tested my recent changes lol

@DXYS95

3 жыл бұрын

That works but, realistically, people will only tutor combo pieces. Now I only build decks without game winning combos. I'll still play tutors, but they'll be used to find answers and other good cards

@colinsillerud6461

3 жыл бұрын

Agreed. When I started playing commander, I played a lot of tutors and it helped me learn how my deck worked. However, as I have played more, I play very few tutors because I have seen all of the cards I used to tutor for and I know how good they are. The tutors have served their purpose and now inhibit my enjoyment. I think one thing that's missed is that groups can really set their own rules. We banned Op Agent and Hullbreacher because those cards are insanely broken.

@ReformedThe

2 жыл бұрын

@@colinsillerud6461 hullbreacher is already banned. But op agent isn't that bad. But then again I don't need tutors.

@colinsillerud6461

2 жыл бұрын

@@ReformedThe Maybe you didn't see the timing of this comment. It was prior to the HB ban.

I think it's hilarious that edh players hate when other people play "solitaire" like storm or paradox engine type decks but then they cry when you interact with their strategy??? Like just because your ramp, creature, over run is quicker doesn't mean it isn't still solitaire - esque.

@BW-CZ

3 жыл бұрын

Seriously this. People repeat the copypasta of "don't play solitaire" and "play interaction!" and then when you remove their creatures they're like "WHY DID YOU KILL MY STUFF". And it goes full circle, because of this general reception many people don't play interaction since not only does it not help their active gameplan it also makes enemies and other people frustrated, and then because of no one playing interaction, people play less stuff that can help them counter or rebuild from interaction, so when they meet the one player who plays interaction they get even saltier.

@Spaced92

3 жыл бұрын

@@BW-CZ This has honestly never been a problem in a playgroup for me because I don't play against Commander only players. No one has ever thrown a tantrum because I killed a creature or countered a spell, and they don't moan about how they had a hard week of work and didn't want to go against a deck that inconveniences their play style. I mean Crim is right, isn't that fun in its own way? It's a game ffs, I joke around when I get staxed out, and that's not an every game type of deck obviously. I remember describing a deck I was building to a random barista who overheard us discussing MtG and they groaned and said "eww gross, discard deck" and I was like whoah, okay then, my friends seem fine with it and it's not even really a discard deck, well random Barista I guess I'll play some Craterhoof deck then. That's the problem with Commander to me, they say it's the format of creativity and expressing yourself but really randoms want to police your deck.

@thebloodcrazed5717

3 жыл бұрын

@@BW-CZ it sounds like your play group is just salty. My play group loves interaction

@Suavek69

2 ай бұрын

​@@BW-CZsorry to necro two year comment, but who the hell do you play against? I legitimately only heard those complaints online. Well, ok there was one guy like that, but he got so annoying we cut him out of our playgroup lol. So I guess don't play with average redditer and you'll be fine

35:24 Just as a note, EDHREC very rarely updates their "salt rankings". The last update was before Commander Legends, otherwise I'm positive at least Hullbreacher and maybe Opposition Agent would appear somewhere in the top 100.

Suggestion for Richard: Add a feature on your deck list that tells you the 'salt' value as dictated by edhrec

@Kryptnyt

3 жыл бұрын

EDHREC needs to update that list tho

@kingfuzzy2

2 жыл бұрын

Archidekt has that feature

@kingfuzzy2

2 жыл бұрын

@@Kryptnyt they do once a year

@Kryptnyt

2 жыл бұрын

@@kingfuzzy2 With the amount of product we get, I wouldn't be upset with "every three months"

@NeiroAtOpelCC

2 жыл бұрын

@@kingfuzzy2 what is that?

'Tutor tutor: Search your library for a card with the word "tutor" in its name, reveal it and put it in your hand, then shuffle your library.'

@babassoonist557

3 жыл бұрын

What is this yugioh?

@zztzgza

3 жыл бұрын

You know some people have tutored for a tutor in a game somewhere lol

@cephalosjr.1835

3 жыл бұрын

@@babassoonist557 In Yugioh the equivalent of that card would never be printed.

@darkrai205

2 жыл бұрын

me playing kess storm deck tuturing a tutor would be rather viable option

@winter945

2 жыл бұрын

@@cephalosjr.1835 Ever heard of zefra?

25:40 Richard forgot that Seth's Nyxbloom Ancient is winning through combat for the next 3 years of Commander Clash...

The amount of fear/hate for opposition agent is unreal. I get that he gets you once then no one tutors until it's gone but you have 3+people trying to kill one creature so you can tutor a card but if you are saying this one creator ruins you're entire game plan maybe just maybe your deck building is the issue.

@Ubermunki3

27 күн бұрын

I think it was a mistake because it punishes precons and equivalents playing shitty cards like evolving wilds

I really think there should be hate for land ramp.

@mintspears6714

3 жыл бұрын

They printed Confounding Conundrum and ever since I have been dying for more effects like that for other colors. Green needs to chill out

@hammernnaila7031

3 жыл бұрын

It's called Armageddon and everyone thinks it's unfun. Including the clowns at WoTC.

@ruudvanlaarhoven5776

3 жыл бұрын

@@hammernnaila7031 Armageddon punishes nongreen decks way harder than the decks that are designed to put lands into play. Rebuilding after a full land wipe is easier when you Cultivated last turn. Hate for land ramp is search hate. Leonin Arbiter, Aven Mindcensor, Opposition Agent, Widespread Panic, Stranglehold, or the aforementioned Confounding Conundrum. Those will punish the Kodama's Reach players a lot more effective than Armageddon, and that without the other players getting furious at you for bringing the game to a halt.

@ianmcabee8036

3 жыл бұрын

@@ruudvanlaarhoven5776 nope other colours should have a few mana rocks which sit around on the battlefield which is way better than having access to land ramp to draw once you hit a few other lands

I don't understand how wanting interactivity and figuring out how to fight/work through an opponent's deck in a multiplayer card game turns it from EDH to cEDH. If you're running a jank deck that doesn't easily get turned off it isn't a jank deck, it's an unusual deck. It's jank because it is inconsistent and unlikely to succeed. Jank isn't the standard for what is regular EDH and actually working through and around other people's decks doesn't equate to Flash Hulk or Ad Nauseum combos.

My old group played with a generic rule on the game that said "When a player would search their deck, they search the top ten cards of that deck instead (and then put the remaining cards on the bottom of their library in a random order)". It did make some tutors unplayable, but not really all that many, and tutors actually became pretty fun to resolve as you didn't necessarily know what you would hit.

Build casual, play competitive.

@AgentMurphy286

Ай бұрын

Have a casual mindset, don’t get salty when you lose or someone plays a card you dislike. That’s the real trick to casual.

I'm with Seth on the bet with Tomer, I don't think they are gonna print a more powerful tutor than demonic tutor in the future

I love how they are complaining about land ramp being stopped, but noone mentions how stony silence, vandalblast and collector ouphe just stop all artifact ramp

As a Yu-Gi-Oh player coming to magic and falling in love with commander if I were to point something out that Yu-Gi-Oh has and still is dealing with it’s that we have a divide between combo going off and having excessive amounts of floodgates because of the lack of a “battle cruiser” style play that we went away from. Not to say that the commander format and Yu-Gi-Oh are the same but searching cards is always powerful and even with restrictions such as Yu-Gi-Oh!’s archetype specific searchers you can still get crazy powerful decks that can start off just 2 cards. This results in printing Crim’s opposition crab and whatnot to combat that and can create games where it becomes “Do you have the out? No? Then I win” style games.

for some creators there's also an element of "this is entertainment for other people" so doing the fun thing over doing the correct thing is viable.

The irony of most players not liking tutors also not liking opposition agent.

@VexylObby

2 жыл бұрын

Both are poor design for the format tho…

I think they are fine the issue is that people end up playing broken tutors in lower powerlevel decks. Because they think that they don’t do anything themselves players are more willing to play them in lower tier games. Demonic and vampirc are too strong for your average table diabolic isn’t.

@Kryptnyt

3 жыл бұрын

If the selection of cards your Demonic can grab are generally lower power level, the Demonic Tutor itself becomes much less good. For an extreme example, a Grizzly Bears that costs 2GB is not really a good play. If you're not tutoring up "I win the game" then you're just reaching into the toolbox which is fun (aside from paper shuffling and etc time wasting)

@Gingerbreadley

3 жыл бұрын

@@Kryptnyt if the best card you can get is a bear you are in a deck where black lotus would be bad. Even the most timmy decks have some big 10/10 trample creature to grab or a 9 mana wrath or some over costed draw spell. All of them can be game winning in certain situations even if they suck in general. Having access to different types of cards is what makes a tutor strong

@Kryptnyt

3 жыл бұрын

@@Gingerbreadley Yes but the tutor is still less strong if you're not getting a combo piece with it, in fact they improve the game when you can grab your card draw or mana ramp at the right points in the game. They smooth out the curve and make things feel organic.

So many of these conversations just come down to "the way I play edh is good and okay because I find it fun so people should learn to deal with it, however the way you play edh beats it, so it's against the spirit of the format and is universally bad and also unfun"

@Spaced92

3 жыл бұрын

Sure but there is a specifically defined spirit of the format, so it's not some arbitrary thing. Richard is arguing that the spirit of the format has changed because new cards are just better than the old ones, when that's entirely why the format was created in the first place.

@hart7668

3 жыл бұрын

100% agree with OP

40:30 - Crim hits the nail on the head here. Interaction is what makes the game a social game and not just solitaire. Oppo Agent is a great card as it's the only card I can think of that actually punishes people for tutoring (I guess that Mirrodin artifact that shocks when you shuffle also does, but meh), and it's a pretty easy card to deal with, if you run interaction.

@anthonydelfino6171

2 жыл бұрын

There are a few other effects that just shut down tutoring, which I've started running more and more. Stranglehold, Mindlock Orb, Ashiok, and Shadow of Doubt. The problem, I would say, for most of these is they're sorcery speed. We need more flash anti-tutor hate.

@MCvicRPG

2 жыл бұрын

I Just dont like the fact that oppo agent is black. Same color that has the best tutors now also has the best tutor hate. Oppo should have been white or at least white/black

@VolvoxSocks

2 жыл бұрын

@@MCvicRPG that's a recurring issue with WotC design tbh. Don't want opponents drawing too many cards? Play Narset. Don't want your opponent going wide with tokens? Play wrath effects. A lot of the best counters to a colors strategy is in the same color, which is a problem.

@anthonydelfino6171

2 жыл бұрын

@@VolvoxSocks taking the card is what makes it black, though I wouldn't mind another opposition agent style effect with flash that just says they can't search at all, and ends it there. Red has that with stranglehold, and blue has that with mindlock orb, so it's not as though they can't just give that same effect flash and give it to either of those colors too.

@Ixidora

2 жыл бұрын

I run "Psychic Surgery" and "Widespread Panic" to punish shuffles in general, also as a side note in the official Oracle text of "Green Sun's Zenith" it dictates that you shuffle your library twice if you cast it, once for the tutor and a second time to shuffle green suns back in, a situation arising from both effects being preformatted for tutors and the zeniths, respectively throughout the above. After posting realized that's just more red and blue anti tutor effects... What does red and blue have against tutors?

Despite it being every second week I always forget and am very pleasantly surprised by the notification (shout out to clicking that bell icon)

it feels like the best solution is to have more tutors that do search top x amount of cards like top 10 or something. Make tutors better the more cards of that type you play in your deck, not play more tutors.

Most of my decks run 1 or 2 flexible tutors at the absolute most. It's been a nice change and allowed me to slot in more fun cards!

"...A few wrenches..." should be Crims motto from now on-

The thing I took away from this is it sounds like you have more issues of combo then tutoring. Most examples you gave were problems on players and not essentially the card. "Player A will just use the tutor to go get there win con." And I think that really a troublesome outlook. I think Richard nails it on the head that redundance that itself doesn't stop that. I think magic has existed so long that if you have a theme for a deck there are enough cards that create a critical mass you will find these consistencies. Take Tomer's changeling deck. They keep printing good changelings and now there is a critical mass were the tribal tribal deck exist at its current ability. I don't think tutors are bad and players should be able to talk more with there playgroups. WoTC are going to just print cards and we choose what to do with them. I can play Zur and build degenerate combo or what I actually did was build Zur cycling and that deck is a blast!

I think we should make the distinction between using tutors for consistency (there's one super-powerful card you always tutor for) and using tutors for versatility (you have a toolbox of cards that are good in different situations, and you tutor for the best one for the current situation). Most of the criticism of tutors is about tutors being used for the former (which lowers variance) rather than the latter (which doesn't lower variance much because you're tutoring for a variety of different cards). For example, say I resolve a Profane Tutor in my Mirri the Cursed Voltron deck. * Are there a ton of scary creatures on the board? Search for Damnation or Mutilate. * Is there some enchantment like Dictate of Erebos that I absolutely need to deal with? Search for Feed the Swarm. * Is there some land like Maze of Ith that I absolutely need to deal with? Search for Field of Ruin. * Do I have Mirri out and I just need to do some more damage? Search for Nightmare Lash. * Is my hand empty while I'm not in any particular danger of dying? Search for Necrologia. * Do I just need more mana? Search for Sol Ring.

I think they are, as was said in the episode variance is the soul of commander. I hate playing decks that are the same every single game. Intricate interactions aren't enough variety for me to enjoy it.

Spirit of the Format has entered the chat. Objectivity has left the chat. Constructive Conversation has left the chat.

As someone who just built a Captain Sissay deck.... damn tutoring every turn takes a long time!!

Honestly, I have no problem with tutors. A store I went to had a point system, and you would loose points for playing tutors for anything but basic lands. This didn't make games less consistent though, because grindy value decks like tassiger that can churn their way through the deck and lock down the game with control took over and became the new meta. PS: I'd be all for a new enlightened tutor. White is basically the color for enchantments, but only has 3 things that can find them outside of auras specifically; enlightened tutor, idyllic tutor, and plea for guidance. It has like 20 ways to bring them back from the graveyard, but no way to get them.

Golgari Birthing Pod deck reporting for duty. Sometimes, it's even better to have a card in deck rather than in hand so I can tutor it to field!

Tomer there are over 20 non-blue counterspells in each of the respective colours and even colourless has at least 10 blue is not the only one with access to on the stack interaction

The deck that i had most fun playing before the pandemic was my kess controll deck, which ran a lot of tutors and used them pretty much purely to tutor up answers to whatever was going on at the table. It made a lot of our games more fun because it balanced the power levels out to have a deck around that could step in whenever a deck started doing absolutely broken stuff and gave slower decks time to grow.

My problem with banning tutors in commander is the result, which is players gravitating to the next best thing: graveyard recursion. It's not without its own weaknesses, but my playgroup, which consisted of only 3 players for a couple years, recently got a 4th player that sugges5ed we not play with tutors or zero-drop mana rocks. It forced us to explore what banning tutors meant, and ultimately it made me pull out a lot more than my demonic and vampiric tutors. Still, removing them wasn't the deal. The deal was that 2 players immediately focused on graveyard synergy that the rest of us are struggling to answer consistently.

I would question whether people enjoy playing against Green decks or Simic decks that just ramp into big things. Those games feel bad because it feels like an inevitable win.

Anti-tutor for ramp: Make an artifact that reads: When a player searches their library for a land copy that spell. Another fun anti-tutor method for some is more effects that force players to shuffle their library.

Seth - The Falcon Punch is great comment! You did great. Please more :)

New white enchantment: "Players can't search their deck for non-land cards"

@about99ninjas56

3 жыл бұрын

This should just be a rule or variation of commander.

@jordangroblewsky2087

Жыл бұрын

"if a player would search their library for one or more cards, they reveal those cards. If any of them are non-land cards, that player shuffles those cards into their library instead of putting them anywhere else."

I felt attacked when he sad "who would even play Draw go decks smh" *me slowly raises hand*

Tomers argument at 43:03 was really interesting. If all you wanted to do was want your jank go off then play alone and don't bother other people at all. I'm with crim I want people to screw me over and present problems the thing that should decide of it's cedh or not is how efficiently they can win vs how efficiently I can stop them vs the opposite

The 10 minute opposition agent discussion is, as usual, entertaining 😜

to me...Tutors are a necessary evil where..yes it goes against the spirit of the format BUT on the other hand... tutors help keeps some decks together...where tutors are another copy of your best cards..like you need a wrath..then tutor a wrath and each good card cost X more where the cost of the tutor

I think the Elvish Rejuvenator-style of ramping is the best possible way to "fix" land tutoring. Print more effects that look at the top X cards instead of searching your whole library.

Also I’m confused does enlighten tutor have other targets than breach and crypt? How is this possible?

What about conditional tutors like that Rogue Demon from Kaldheim, or the Suspend tutor in Masters Horizons 2? Or my current choice tutor Fierce Empath that can only tutor 6 CMC or greater? Are these as degenerate as Vampiric Tutor or Demonic Tutor? And, if I play a Vampiric Tutor in a Vampire deck, does that fit Seth's "flavor" condition?

Agree with the main points. Tutors are against the original spirit of the format, I want to see a different side of my deck each time i play. The more specific a tutor is the less of a problem it is. Also 3 mana and over are way less powerful than the 1-2 mana tutors. Also Demonic Tutor is probably the single best card in Magic. I generally play at most 1 tutor in a deck and usually something that tutors for a specific type of card that relates to the deck. If they banned every single card that said "search your library" I wouldn't be sad. But I would at least see the 1-2 mana tutors gone (Demonic-, Enlightened-, Mystic-, Varpyric-, Wordly-, Sylvan-, Gambl(?), Imperial Seal). Personally I like games to go at least 10 turns (preferably 15-20) so I feel like I get to see many facets of the decks.

Hey guys, fist off love watching your videos! So I think tutors are good for the format, like rich said it’s not fun playing off the top, and they can be great for answering threats. I think this is great, helps prolongs the game and give everyone a chance to continue fighting for the win or a chance to pop off. I do see the problem with tutors, but I think most of the issues can be fixed by adding more anti tutors like opposition agent. I do think wizards should make more cards like opposition agent. But maybe not as strong as it. Just cuz using an opposition agent on some one just doing a evolving wilds or other fetch land feels bad. Maybe make an anti tutor card that specifically doesn’t hit land tutors. Also make anti tutor in more colors maybe all of them. Just my thought, thanks for sharing your. Looking forward to watching more of your videos :)

I think the only issues with any of the cards mentioned (tutors, ramps, search stealers like oppo agent) come out to the issue of who wins in the end. Some dont want people to be a tryhard in a casual game, but you DO want to win in the end. Even if you're a Neutral force in the commander group, you do know the opponent eventually will swing for game if you don't.

When making a deck I recommend putting down all your non-staples before adding the staples. This helps you eliminate the cards that are less synergistic while creating a powerful janky deck

The thing that really got me into commander is how crazily diverse the games were even playing with the same deck. When you only draw 20 or so of the 100 cards in your deck, and all of those cards do somewhat different things, the permutations of your games are crazy diverse. And pair that against other people playing their own set of permutations and each game becomes really interesting. Once you start adding redundant effects, adding card draw, and adding tutors, you cut that variance down from 1/5 to like 1/2. It always feels bad to nerf yourself (in any game, honestly), but often I find that the nerfed version of the game is more fun. I play Path of Exile a lot as well, and I find the SSF (no trade) game mode to be more fun because you don't have access to the power that exists when you can trade with other players. When I play Final Fantasy games, I always impose some extra limitation on myself like not being able to use items or whatever because it forces me to win with strategies other than just "mash x to win". Limitation tends to breed more creativity, and leads to a more varied experience. I think, at the end of the day, variety is more fun than power and consistency, even though the idea of making a super strong combo can be appealing to our brains initially. But this highlights an interesting divide. For players that aren't as good at the game because they just don't play it as much as a hardcore player, "mash x to win," and "buy the powerful item," and "combo win" type of gameplay is appealing because it is one of the obvious powerful things that they can be doing in a world that is difficult to understand due to all the complexity and billions of cards that exist. When you don't entirely understand the system/landscape you're playing in, I think finding one obviously powerful thing and latching on to it can be a nice way to center yourself amid the turbulence of confusion that is a complicated game like Magic. But once you play the game for a while and you're familiar with all the typically powerful things that are possible, you start to seek more creative ways to play the game, to exploit the mechanics that are rarely exploited.

I have two decks that both play quite a few tutors. One is a Saskia Wild Pair deck that runs about 6 different tutors meant to find Wild Pair and then Wild Pair itself is a tutor for creatures, the entire deck is built using only creatures who's total power and toughness is 7. It's based on the one that Jim from the Spike Feeders built and it is very fun to play because it doesn't do any sort of combo win. The whole goal is to tutor out Ball Lightning and its redundant buddies and swing at people while Saskia is on the field. The deck would be super bad without Wild Pair so running the different tutors that allow me to find it means this kinda silly deck can actually put in some work at a table without being an insta-kill every time i find my tutors. The other deck is a Sisay Weatherlight Captain Legendary Humans deck. It only runs the two Sisay's for tutors, but again the creatures in the deck don't allow for any sort of insta-kill combos. They act more like toolbox decks where I am tutoring up ways of dealing with things on the board or just finding a couple of anthems and things that give trample to my creatures. I think the Sisay deck could probably swap out for any other 5 Color legendary human and work perfectly fine without the tutoring though.

My playgroup has a variant we enjoy that says only cards printed into standard in a 3.99 or less booster are allowed and the word tutor is banned (doesn't remove all searching, but reigns them in a bit). It somewhat solves both the tutor and the cards being printed directly into commander "problem" and can create games more in tune with the original spirit of commander. Having one regular game and one variant game each night has really helped keep our games fresh while still allowing for everyone to build what they want.

This is more of a house rule for when I deck build, but I use the canlander points list to limit what tutors I use. So if I have dt, vamp and sol ring, I'll stop using anymore tutors on that list. So after maxing out on points, i can't also have mystical tutor, intuition, witchclaw talisman, spellseeker etc. I know it's a different format and the points list are catered to addressing issues specific to it, but it's a good way to curb tutor use without thinking too hard.

I feel like the solution is pretty simple: print more aven mindcensor like effects. You don’t have to go full tilt opposition agent. Just need tutors into limited card selection.

I wouldn't say they're a problem, but the thing is the variability of games doesn't really happen, you just tutor for the winning card and win. And like Richard said, it isn't really a singleton format now.

I am normally very much on Team Seth, but this time I think Tomer and Crim hit the nail of the head. If you let tutors into your group people will just tutor the win con...

@connoringram4948

3 жыл бұрын

I play tutors to get my win cons if its late game but tutor for synergy peices early game. Im fundamentally against 2 card combos so i tutor to get my 7 peice combo together. My combo is risen reef, lotus cobra, living twister, ahsaya, and yarrok and omnath an cavalier of flame to draw my whole deck make infinte mana tokens etbs buff everythin give it haste or flicker 3 color omnath. None of those cards are my commander so when i tutor its always for risen reef its kinda like a secret commander. The deck is all about goin infinite and having a samey play pattern but for that kinda deck thats what i love about magic. If my risen reef gets exiled the deck slows down if lotus cobra gets exiled the deck is so hard to go infinite with remove the ashaya and its impossible to. The tutors are for if my reef gets exiled i tutor for a cavalier or muldrifter for card advantage or removal. I play a zombie tribal deck that can go infinte with gravecrawler rooftop storm but my tutors are beeshesh the queen a 5 drop zombie that i can sac a creature to tutor a zombie an zwamp an that unearth entomb zombie. I feel like the tutors are so fine and are in the spirit of the format. I also have kinda a one card combo deck in primal surge muldrotha but my tutors in that deck put the spell in the gy so i gotta return it with eternal witness so graveyard hate stops thiss but id need like 20 mana in order to tutor and cast it so at that point in the game it feels acceptable to have a card that can win the game. Tutors are fine based on your power level.

@adriendelplace8755

3 жыл бұрын

Play more counterspells :p

@Hawko1313

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah, and then play tutors to find those counterspells… oh wait

My opinion, make companions or backgrounds etc, something in the command zone, that requires you to follow a certain rule, that are stax pieces vs certain strategies. For example. Rule of law in the command zone, costs 2. But requires you to have 8 or less instants. Bam. Or stoney silenece. But only in a deck with 15 or more artifacts. Bloodmoon/back to basics requires 20 non-basic lands in your deck. etc. Cards that are blatantly visible pregame. You know, by rule, they can't just surprise you. They are obvious and stop whatever type of combo you dislike the most.

@peytonmillner6417

2 жыл бұрын

But also hurt or narrow your deck building so that they aren't "free".

I don't hate tutors, because it's nice to have answers to whatever situation you're facing. You also want ways to win the game, because games need to end eventually. There also needs to be more tutor-hate because there are literally four cards(?) that accomplish that, but they're very narrow and often dead if players aren't using lots of tutors. I'd want to see a cheap enchantment, creature, or artifact with fading that says "your opponents (or players) cannot search their libraries" and "when this permanent leaves the battlefield, return target nonland permanent to its owner's hand.

The Issue of Opposition Agent and Hullbrecher There are quite a few reason I see why people seriously dislike opposition agent and agree with Tomer that it does way to much for its mana cost (same with hullbreacher). I'll split this in to some different categories. Stax vs Gotcha - The first issue I see with OA and HB they act both as Stax pieces and as Gothca's. A Narset parter of veils, Ashiok dream render or Leonin Arbiter act as stax pieces for around the same mana cost, they shut of a plan and prevent you opponent from using it however only if you have got the effect down in advance. While a counterspell, redirect or even a spell stealing effect is a gotcha. You shut down their effect as it is being done. OA and HB do both, they gotcha your opponent meaning your opponent wastes resources and then you also shut down that plan in future. Aven Mindcensor is sort of half of both, it isnt a true stax piece or gotcha because it only weakens an effect rather then negating it completely. Yes demon tutoring into a AM would suck, but you would still get something. Shutdown vs Leeching - The second main issue of OA and HB, is that they both act as a shutdown and a leeching effect. Shutdown is pretty self evident , they turn off and completely remove the ability for an opponent to gain value from the strategy in question. OA mean no tutor works for your opponent, while HB turns off all additional card draw. However they are also a leeching effect giving you value while shutting off your opponents. If HB was create a treasure for each of an opponents additional draws, it would still good even without stopping the card draw itself. If OA allowed you to tutor as well as your opponent but didn't stop them from tutoring it would still be good. Both would still be good if they just stopped your opponent from gaining but didnt give you any additional effect. Narset is already playable, HB is just better. Self Protective - The last issue I see with both OA and HB is that they are self protecting. One of the guy already mentioned in the episode, that OA prevent you from tutoring up an answer. So you have to top deck or dig to get one. Meanwhile HB shutting off card draw give you less means of drawing into an answer. Both have highly powerful effects that also restrict your options for finding an answer to them. These card come in for too cheap, two for one an opponent, then remove options from all opponents while still giving you upside if an opponent has no choice in fulfilling an effect (Such as being wheel into a HB) and both have effects reduce you opponent likely hood at finding an answer to them.

I think the problem with opposition agent is definitely the flash. You can't get 2 for 1'd if you see it coming. Then it's the puzzle piece to work around not a land destruction spell against fetches.

The way around for green ramp is to make it more enchantment based. More of the cards that make lands tap for more, with Hexproof to stop them being destroyed.

I know that if tutors were gone, I would have a MUCH harder time playing my mono-white Darien deck. There’s really not much in the way of card draw in white, so that deck relies pretty heavily on skullclamp and mentor of the meek.

Tomer sort of touched on this with the shuffling concern but I'm surprised I didn't hear the time concern brought up. I already feel like I spend a lot of time in an edh game waiting, and it's even worse when people don't know what they're tutoring for when they cast them.

Shadowmage Infilitrator is still awesome in my Lazav, the Multifarious Deck. Card draw, relatively cheap evasion and Dimir in flavor :-D

It might have been better if Opposition Agent read: Whenever an opponent searches their library for a nonland card they reveal it and put it on the bottom of their library.

One major point of sadness for me is when new players show me cards they're excited about and my response is, "Oh, that card... it's- yeah, it's a good one. But did you know this similar card exists that's just better?" Obviously, my response could be more sensitive, but the root of the problem is power creep. No experienced player wants a vanilla 3/3 for 2, when you could have Emmara, or Chevill or something. Tutors have created an environment where we no longer care about a 6/6 Trample for 6. We don't even know their names anymore because all we look for are Sun Titan or Carnage Tyrant- which is just better in every way.

I remember back when the Commander Tuck rule was changed, Sheldon Menery was adamant that one of the reasons for the change was because it'd make people run less tutors. I still see as much (if not more) tutors than I did back then.

Wizards prints plenty of low-powered, goofy-but-fun cards into commander products alongside the obviously absurd ones - like apex altisaur. The issue is that all it takes is one guy willing to drop $400 on a deck to create an arms race at casual tables, from which people don't want to turn away from due to having sunk so much money in. Diabolic Tutor and lowered-powered cards like that are rarely an issue as far as tutors go - but unless you expressly impress on your group not to obsess over optimization, you'll never see them.

Wow, this episode actually only lasted 1 hour! :D

I think to an extent, there's almost a subconscious feeling of entitlement of one's own deck when it's been brewed and tweaked, ready for it's first game, and something gets countered or taxed, and then it plays less than ideal. It's eye of the beholder right? If my deck was built to do X but I wasn't able to see X play out... who's deck was too powerful, or who decided to shut down my awesome idea? I'm not saying this pointed at anyone at all! It's just a thought that came to mind. I love discourse on topics like these. It's awesome to think about the social aspect of the game.

If you'd take out all "search your library" effects from Commander, wouldn't card selection notably rise up in power which would probably lead to blue being way stronger than other colors when it comes to consistency?

I give them props as four people with the same opinion exploring both sides of the argument. I personally just like my decks to function at a baseline level, so the ability to add consistence by upping tutor amount it an important option for me. But I don't just jam tutors in every deck.

What I really like about opposition agent is that it is one of the only answers to landfall decks and it shuts dpwn demonic tutor.

@jasonholmes5714

3 жыл бұрын

Yes. I think it’s great for that reason. I would never be mad at someone for playing Opposition Agent. If you get stung by it, kudos to the one who played it. (Hullbreacher can go die.)

@jor-elmasterofscheduling2002

3 жыл бұрын

Opposition agent is garbage, NOT because of it's effect but because it was printed in the only colour that can force other players to search. The Chaotic nature of the card places it more into red then any other colour. Also same thing goes with Hull breacher, making a more easily abused parter of veils combo was idiotic at best and definitely a colour shifted white card. I'd like to see more of their effects just not as obvious chase cards for competitive colours.

@Tvboy777

3 жыл бұрын

How does Opposition Agent answer Landfall decks? Majority of broken landfall decks are Oracle of Mul Daya/Exploration clones + Crucible + Fetchland, which OppoAgent does absolutely nothing against.

@Jarvis_Moonbeam

3 жыл бұрын

@@Tvboy777 Agent stops the Fetchlands. They also stop any of the ramp spells that aren't just cards that say you may play an extra land this turn.

@aaroncorsini6165

3 жыл бұрын

@@Tvboy777 I think you got your answer. It stops landfall decks no matter what.

IMO casting a tutor either at the end of the last opponents turn or during your turn and winning on the spot is a feel bad on the same level of land destruction. My feelings get mitigated slightly if the win condition is difficult to put together, say a four card combo, or mazes end, or door to nothingness, or Phage or something. So long as the play group isn't reliant on easy two card combos (Or one and a half if your general is one of the pieces) I'm fine seeing tutors I guess.

For your point on what wizards should do going forward I actually think the best going forward is to print more modal cards. Whether that is MDFC's, commands/charms, cycling etc. all of it disincentives' tutors in small ways (e.g. a deck might replace a fetchland as part of several cuts for MDFC's, or you might use a prismari command instead of a tutor card + package for those effects) and the list goes on. Basically you have enough cards with 2+ effects and it appeals to more playstyles and fits the original philosophy of commander better (casuals like each game to feel different and more competitive players like options, both of which will happen when each card can do more). On top of this, it requires no 'hate' card like opposition agent helping reduce salt from players. It's definitely not a perfect system (cards with walls of text), and doesn't eliminate tutors (which we don't necessarily want anyway) but I think it at least makes a step in the right direction.

An interesting format-level fix would be to add a replacement effect along the lines of: "If you would search a library for a card, instead only search the top X cards, where X is the mana value of your commander(s)". It basically makes all tutors bad, but not unplayable. It also reduces shuffling, reduces the green ramp problem, and makes combo less powerful. All of those would be a positive for the format.

Search is search, fixing your colors to cast your threats or getting things to combo, all gets you closer to winning. In regards to the opposition agent conundrum, remember black and green are enemy colors.

What to think about Commander's that have tutor effect then ? Like the recently Magda Outlaw ?

100 card singleton and players can't search their library sounds like heaven. No more super OP landramp green No more stupid combos No more overpriced fetchlands

On Richards comment of tutoring for lesser cards, I’ve done this because I love Tibalt. I merchant scrolled for mystical tutor to get demonic tutor to get call the gate watch to get Tibalt lmao

The problem with tutors I feel is part of a bigger issues with the amount of superpowered staples in the format. There's just so many autoincludes that, like *person-I-don't-know-the-name-off-yet* said, you add them and then you don't have room for the actual deck. I mean, if you find yourself tutoring for the same card 90% of the time, then that's a problem with that specific card being too good.

@MTGGoldfishCommander

3 жыл бұрын

That's a good point. Tutors are only as good as what you are finding with them.

@garlicxlr

3 жыл бұрын

@@MTGGoldfishCommander I also think there's good and bad for the game tutors. A good tutor has alternative uses beyond tutoring, like X Cycling or Transmute, whist a bad tutor doesn't do anything else. Because If you draw a Demonic Tutor, you're going to crack it as soon as possible, because there's no reason not too (outside a few fringe situations ei. Opposition Agent). But with a Transmute card, not only do I need to remember which cards I can get, I also get into situations where it's regular effect may be more useful.

@30:00 @Crim Reason I started playing EDH was cause I wanted to play with all the sweet Pirates in Ixalan I never got to play in Standard. Still have my Grixis Pirate deck, now all foiled out X-D

Fix for tutors: Import Tax: 1w Enchantment - If a player would search their library they must pay X for each card they find or those cards are put of the bottom of their library, where X is the number of card found.

What about transmute effects? Does anyone play those in commander besides me?

On the Opposition agent topic. I think any one of a few things would have made it more balanced. Either it only hit's non-land searches, or it doesn't have flash, or it doesn't allow Opposition agent's owner to play the spells. Also, it doesn't fit the flavor of black; where did flash come from? Where did the control effect come from? Where is the negative effect that is normally attached to black (losing life, sacing a creature, etc.)?